Toddler Emotions | Parents discuss strategies for avoiding tantrums (w/ guests Sue & Nigel Pimlott)

How to say no; Gentle parenting tips; Language with children; Navigating challenging behaviour, tantrums & boundaries; Understanding the brain... Find out how to preempt squabbles with simple techniques that don't use demands, shame or punishment, but lay the foundation for good mental health. Embedding a whole way of being that encourages participation and emotional safety in little ones.

Listen to our wonderful guests who have lots of experience fostering under 5s and dealing with challenging behaviour - and through working in alternative teaching provision, supporting children with special educational needs. This is the one where Emma and Elliot host an interview with husband & wife, Nigel & Sue, who share their amazing wisdom about approaches to behaviour, discipline, talking to toddlers, managing emotions, and helpful strategies for all sorts of scenarios! Including hearing about their experience of fostering.

Suggested follow-up resources from our guests:
Book: There's no such thing as naughty (by Kate Silverton)
Family Systems Theory

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Find everything explained and more links on our website:
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Unwind on sleepless nights to a wholesome mix of parenting stories, quirky humour, and cosy crafting. We’re not here to provide answers but to share our experiences, explore how parenting has changed, and build an online community of parents for mutual support.

A fun, honest and unscripted conversation between Emma and Elliot on non-judgemental parenting and millennial-based topics, as we relax on an evening attempting an artistic or creative activity. 

We are a project in partnership with The Kairos Movement and supported by The Methodist Church, of which The Kairos Movement is a part.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:40 Parenting Achievements
• 5:50 Fostering
• 15:15 Approaches & scenarios
• 48:55 Wrap up

Transcript

  So Emma, what's happening today? Today we have some special guests share with us their experience of fostering maybe toddlers who are going to help advisors and they have lots of experience about how to maybe help manage certain behaviours. 

Welcome back to the Blanket Fort here in the Crippin household this cosy corner of the internet where it's time to put in your headphones and grab a moment to unwind. and join with other parents to chat about our experiences of raising children.  Supporting each other in a non judgmental way, whether you have a baby, toddler, one child or more.

We're your co hosts on this relentless parenting journey. I'm Elliot, husband to Emma who sat across from me there. Cooee! Factoid for today, my favourite food is Probably cheesy pasta or anything sweet, really. I'm a dessert person. And I'm Emma. My favourite food is dumpling stew.  And I'm the opposite. I generally like savoury food.

Don't really have much of a sweet tooth. So yeah, and anything meaty is mainly my go to. That's my favorite thing. There you go. Something about us. And this is a special episode today. We've got two guests on. Really interesting conversation. We're very glad that we had Nigel and Sue join us. So stay tuned for some excellent conversation and tips and tricks from them.

It's a really good episode. Highly recommend it. 

Parenting achievement time! So a parenting fail story from us this week. Um, we've been having fun and games with Lily bringing back items from nursery that she's smuggled away in her pockets and in her hat.  Stealing things that she wasn't meant to bring home. I mean, the nursery don't seem to mind particularly.

We do try and send them back. I do bring this stuff back. Yeah.  We thought we'd quickly mention though, this kind of relatable moment, maybe whether if your toddler. Also has this if they're at nursery or any kind of education setting. Yeah. They go somewhere for child care, do they smuggle things away sneakily? 

And it only started about a week ago. We came home with two of these letters, like they're learning to write, two of these little letters in her pocket. And then we couldn't stop laughing the next day she came back. She came all the way home. She said to Baba, I've got another one. He was going, another one?

And she was like,  come look. And she was showing me in her coat pocket. She was like that I've got more. And she was producing more and more of these plastic little letter shapes. from her pocket. And I was like, Lily, we told you yesterday when you brought home the other ones that you, we had to give them back.

And she's brought more home. She was so proud of it.  Like, come, come see what I got. Come see what I brought home. Um, she smuggled a spider plastic spider home. Um, that was part of the Halloween decorations or whatever they were doing at nursery to do with  Halloween. She also came home one day and she had her drawings that she'd drawn on bits of paper stuffed in a hat.

And so she came home, took her hat off and was like, Look, I've got my drawings in that hat. And we were like, why? I'm sure they let you bring your drawings home. Why did you need to them up and then they hand them to you as you leave. But apparently she thought a good place to keep them was a hat.  There we go.

So I do want to say we have told her stealing is wrong.  Yeah, it's now an ongoing conversation about how we try and impart this wisdom that maybe you shouldn't take things. From nursery. Yes. Um, we've not had much success at returning the items either, but anyway, anyway, um, there's a parenting fail from us this week.

Yeah. Uh, do let us know if it sounds familiar. We'd love to know if your toddler or child also does this or has done this in the past or if you're a fellow little thief living in your house. Yeah, and it's not too bad being nursery in that, you know, it's not like a shop or something where Yeah, it hasn't expanded to outside of nursery yet.

You actually have to pay for the things so it's not proper theft.  Right, well, before we dive into our conversation, uh, with Nigel and Sue today, just to provide some context and introductions, uh, to that, um, we kind of know Nigel through my work and through the church. He's listened to some of our podcast episodes and particularly we're on quite a similar play page with the kind of school and flexi schooling education stuff.

We did an episode on chatting about that, um, and we touch based and we said it'd be great interesting to have a conversation. Um, we mention it in a moment when we get into it, but um, they've gone through a journey of fostering and that's really interesting in itself and that whole experience, but also what they've learned through having, you know, fostering lots of toddlers and under fives and some of their tips and tricks for kind of managing, uh, all sorts of things, kind of emotions, behavior, how we say no to things, how we talk to children, loads of really good stuff in that, um, you know, kind of.

Around the theme of kind of gentle parenting, but also kind of much broader than that as well, a kind of holistic approach to how we do discipline and different ideas about what, what that looked like. And yeah, lots of things that we've learned from this conversation. Yeah, yeah. Loads of stuff. I'll be listening back to it myself, trying to remember everything that was said.

Mmm, packed full of loads of great stuff. So I hope you enjoy it. We really enjoyed it. And we'll, we'll meet you back at the other side of the conversation just to wrap things up. But here we go. Grab your changing bag and your wipes before you head out the door and let's jump into the conversation. 

Welcome. And thank you very much for joining us on our, our podcast, our little podcast here, chatting about parenting. And particularly for us kind of toddlers and babies and, under fives and things like that. Do you want to introduce yourselves and kind of what your experience and context is? Yeah, sure.

Thank you. It's great to be here. Uh, I'm Nigel Pimmott. Um, I recently semi retired. I do some consultancy stuff, but yeah, I used to work for youth work organizations and the church.  Five, six years ago, I knew absolutely nothing about, uh, parenting under fives, but we then decided to become foster carers and  I know I'm an expert.

No, I'm not. It's just, it was a really steep learning curve. Uh, where we had a really, uh, challenging journey, but, uh, yeah, we learned lots on the way and we just thought it would be good to share about some of that, if that might help some of your listeners. I'm Sue Pimlott, married to Nigel. Um, so similar journey. 

Um, I've got a background in primary school teaching, um, working in alternative provision and supporting children with, um, special educational needs, particularly social, emotional, mental health difficulties,  which can present as challenging behaviour. Um, so I've had a bit of experience through the fostering, but also through kind of work life as well.

What we always like to do is include other voices on the podcast that can share other stories and particularly kind of experiences that either we don't have or expertise that we don't have or ways of just, you know, expanding some of our knowledge and. Yeah, but so, really fascinated by this conversation, particularly for us, I think, at the moment, we're Oh, we're going through a challenging time.

Yeah, we're struggling a little bit. Just the nature of, uh,  I don't know, where we are with, with Lily, who's three and a half, and kind of going through a kind of tantrum. Yeah, I think she's very aware the baby's coming soon. And that means less attention, so she's trying to find a way into getting more and more attention, but not exactly the best way.

As well, like, the, the kind of posture journey as well, that's really interesting, because again, that's another, it's a different angle that we've not had any experience of. I don't know, how would, how would you sum up your kind of journey and  Experience with fostering.  Um, yeah, I think, um, it is slightly different just because of the life experience that the children have had prior to coming to us.

Um, so I, um, was very much kind of alongside my sister when she was parenting my nephews and kind of, you know, stayed with her and, um, was around that kind of parenting then. But actually with. Um, children who were in foster care, it's much more of, of a therapeutic approach. So, so that was, that was another part of our learning curve was kind of almost, um, relearning some of the parenting models we had seen, um, from friends and family actually then having to tweak it to do it slightly differently.

Um,  so, so that was quite interesting and we did quite a lot of reflection in the evenings kind of saying. Well, that didn't quite work today. What should we try tomorrow?  Um, so there's kind of conversations, um, but there was some, you know, there was some really good books, um, that we read about therapeutic parenting and, um, and that was, that was quite helpful for us in that part of the journey.

Yeah, I think one of my reflections is, uh, we've got our own children, sadly, and however much you love and care for those who you're fostering, they're not your children. They're someone else's. It's just a massive responsibility looking after someone else's children  is one of my reflections, you know, and, and the, the pain and struggle of life, um, is, is very stark for those, uh, uh, and you try and make the best of it you can.

Um, I think the joy for us, the other side of that equation is, um, the last little girl we fostered, uh, we're still heavily involved in her life and she comes and stays with us every other weekend. Uh, and that's just been fantastic, really. Um, we don't know where it will go. Um, you know, it's, it's always,  um, but, but yeah, she's just a delight.

And, um, we, we, we just count it as a privilege really, that we've been able to do that. I think it works for us. It works for her and it works for the family members she lives with. But yeah, it's, it's difficult, difficult scenario. It's underfunded. Um, it's chaotic, um, it's kind of slightly dysfunctional.

People don't always make, um, good decisions because they haven't  the resource capacity to make good decisions. So there's a lot of crisis management, which I think doesn't.  really help the children  in the way that  it was adequately resourced we'd be able to do really. I think because of all of those things, we really wanted to get it right.

And, you know, we wouldn't, we didn't always get it right, but we wanted to, I think we really strove to do that because of the, the situations that the children were in. How did you kind of come to the decision that it was the, The, the route that you wanted to explore and would you, I mean, probably not only for our listeners, but you know, would you recommend others kind of explore fostering and Yeah, that's a difficult question. 

Having the children  with the joyous bit, it was, yeah, it was really hard work, but That was kind of the joyous bit, and particularly sort of, we, we fostered under five, so you see all those amazing milestones, you're part of that, and, and that's,  um, you know, that's a real joy to kind of behold them, and crawling, and  standing, taking the first steps,  weaning, you know, having the first taste of real food, and, um, and all that, sleeping through the night, well, we didn't get much of that, but, um, yeah.

Yeah. It's kind of, you know, those milestones were brilliant. Seeing the children develop, um, as well was, was really great. Um, there's a lot of tensions, you know, you're, you as a, as a foster carer, you're not kind of seen as very important. So,  um, you're kind of pulled in lots of different directions and you just have to kind of.

do with your cold really. So there might be, um, groups, groups that you, you want to take the children to, but actually you've got to fit in with the contact time with the family because that's the most important thing. So there's lots of pools and social care is, as Nigel said, it's, you know, it is massively underfunded and in, in crisis.

So, um, some of those. Um, relationships there with the social workers were difficult because they, you know, they're tricky to get hold of and they have their own kind of priorities. I think it just depends on the kind of person you are. And I think one of the hardest things, despite all those tensions was, um, you know, we signed up for short term fostering,  which on the website, it was sort of, you know, three months ish.

Um, but all our children were with us for around a year.  And you develop those, especially because they're young and they rely on you for all their needs at that age. Um, that, that saying goodbye is so hard, you know, it's, it isn't a requirement really. And, and you know that, you know, they're going on to the next steps and that's our, was our job to prepare them for those next steps.

Um, but you're so invested in them, uh, you know, it's, it, that's a really difficult part. I think I'd want to qualify the question as to whether I'd recommend it.  It's not well paid unless you go through an agency with high, high demand children. The idea of you working, you've got under fives. I don't think it's possible because as Sue said, you have to do contact.

You have to go to many meetings. You have to do lots of training. So you need really deep pockets to subsidize, really. Um, some carers have, um, several children, which is the way they make it work. Um, the most we had was two at a time. Um,  so yeah, I think it's a real tricky question as to whether I'd recommend it or not.

Uh, our social worker was fantastic. She was old school, just wished for someone better. Uh, and without her, we'd have just stopped. I'm giving you a long waffly answer. There's lots of dynamics in the mix as to whether I think it's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. And there's some people, friends I've got who have. 

Admittedly, they're, you know, they're not looking after under fives, they're older children. They moved house and bought a bigger house, so it becomes almost like a mini children's home, you know, and that's after them.  I don't know how they handle that, but that's their kind of calling, if you like, their vocation.

It's, it's just such a interesting insight into a whole area that I, I know nothing about really and yeah, but I mean, from our perspective, it's, I'm super impressed in terms of, you know, it's, it's a challenge for us with an under five, but who's our own and with us all the time.  I'm trying to imagine, kind of, the experience of of that context is even yeah, yeah, hats off to you.

It's incredible. 

We we've not really we've talked a little bit on our podcast before, but not in in great detail. I mean, we're We're quite a fan of the whole, kind of, gentle parenting type approach, um, but we're Or at least we try our best. Yeah, we've been very open that we're, we're not great at, kind of, sticking to things or, you know, we flex a lot depending on, How, how we're coping and so we have often, uh, slipped into doing things like timeouts and, um, particularly, I think, kind of reward based things.

Again, we, we kind of know that isn't a great approach or like, in our heads, we're never quite sure about it or what the alternative is, but, um, you kind of just sometimes find yourself there. We went through, and it's still kind of a, a big challenge for us for a long time, around clothes and getting dressed.

Oh, yeah. Um, one of our early episodes we did, uh, was when Lily was kind of around two when we started doing the podcast, and we went through a couple of, couple of weeks, I think, where she just wouldn't wear any clothes. It was just like, trying to get anything, although it was a massive challenge. Well, so we just had like two weeks indoors, basically. 

I'm like, I can't take you out like this. Yeah. And when I do take you out, you just get naked. Yeah. So. These days, it's, uh, it's a lot better and you can kind of, she's of an age where you can reason with her a bit more, but it's still. Yeah, she no longer likes to get naked. Yeah. It's more, she is deaf and mute. 

So it's often a kind of to and throw on it every morning, working out what can we encourage her to wear? Or will she wear a coat when we leave the house? Will she wear appropriate shoes, particularly going into winter, because she wants to wear flip flops everywhere. What would be your thoughts on approaching kind of reasoning with a illogical toddler? 

Yeah, it's, it's really tricky. I, one of the things that we, um, Um, three and a half year old that we fostered was, she really struggled with having demands put on her. So asking her to do things. So, um, we would just tweet the language and, and in the morning.  I would put her clothes out on a chair and just say, your clothes are waiting for you.

Um, and then, so it wasn't kind of going, right, let's get ready or putting that pressure on it. It was just, your clothes are ready for you. Come downstairs, you know, when, when you, when you dressed. Um, so there was that aspect to it. We do kind of talk a bit about keeping them safe and warm as well, don't we?

So, um, you know, your clothes are there to, to keep you safe and warm.  Um, another thing that, um, sometimes works well with, um, children is like a little photo story, having photos of maybe Lily wearing her shoes or, or a photo of a, just, um, of a child when it's cold. These are the clothes we wear, um, and just kind of going through it almost like a bedtime story, um, when we go to the shop.

We put on our coats and, and you can sometimes have like, um, pictures by the door or wherever it is that you kind of are leaving the house by, um, as kind of a checklist of things to do, but it's just that getting, getting it over, isn't it, in a, um, sort of picture sometimes work quite well with photos, um, but this is when we go outside in the winter.

These are the shoes we wear when we go outside in the summer, these are the shoes we wear and that kind of thing. So it's, it's that kind of preempting it. Um, so you're not kind of challenging in the moment, but that's kind of an ongoing narrative. Yeah. My background is in youth work, so I'm committed to participation and empowerment.

I probably give a little one too much choice. Sue is always going,  stop giving them a choice.  But I might say, you know, you want to wear this coat or that coat. Um, so it's kind of narrowing it down a little bit. The little girl who comes and stays with us is two and a half. Um, it always seems to work when, when we say we need to keep you safe.

I don't, I don't know the psychology of that two and a half year old.  Obviously the fostering that's really important, but just saying that does seem to just soften their, the resistance sometimes to, you know, we need to keep safe and we need to keep you warm or we need to, uh, do this or do that.  And how or why that works, but it just seems to just kind of diffuse the, the, the, She'll  c it.

Really? Yeah. So I use that a lot when I'm struggling  . But yeah, the teacher two choices is, is fine. Like is is when it gets more than two, I think. I mean, but yeah, two choices is, is good. 'cause, 'cause actually if, if she's got two pairs of winter shoes or two coats, then as long as she's wearing one of them or, um, you know, or two jumpers.

Um, and sometimes, you know, even the night before we could say, you know, tomorrow, um, we're going to be going out and, um. go to the playgrounds. Um, so we'll need some warm clothes for that. Which jumper shall we put out ready for tomorrow? And she can be part of choosing that. So, um, it's, it's that kind of, um, participation as well. 

I think I know it's, I know you mentioned it is hard when you're tired and you've got things going on, but we are passionate about the routine. You know, the routine is, we're almost slaves to that routine. Um, you know, everything's timed, um, to within the five minutes. We'll even notice, you know, it's, it's going out time in five minutes.

We need to get our shoes out. We need to do it. So we, you know, uh, we keep that rhythm all the time, even though it's, Sometimes you just want to go, ah, forget it. But we are, we are kind of,  shouldn't it be embedded in that whole kind of way of being, really? Yeah, because that's, particularly for when children are being fostered, um, that sense of emotional safety is really key.

So, um, boundaries and routine  help to keep children safe. Um, and so we were really try and stick to this, as Nigel said, because it is that feeling of safety within which then helps him to sort of react better, I guess, um, to when there is changes or when something's about  to happen. It's one of those things where it's very easy to kind of forget to explain  your children.

Yeah. Why doing something, not just that we have to do it. Yeah. I, I've taken to like showing her the weather app when Yeah. Sometimes, or we sit there and she goes. But it's not going to rain and I go, well, it says it's going to rain. Let's look at the app. And sometimes that helps persuade her because she can see there's a rain cloud and she goes, Oh, okay.

It's going to rain. Yeah.  I like that. That's nice.  We do a lot of what we try to do a lot of modeling where basically we know that you love to kind of copy whatever you're doing. So, yeah. You know, we've bought some matching sets like wellies, things that you can wear. So yeah.  So if she's like, oh well mummy's wearing her wellies today,  you can wear your matching ones and that has worked quite well.

Um, not that she ever wants to wear matching things with me, so you don't know what I do.  Who's the baddie that sells?  And I think we need to get better at narrowing down some of that. the choices. Oh yeah, I'm definitely to blame for that.  I'm like, what would you like to wear? Like the Wellesley or Oyster, these are all good clothes. 

What would you like? I'm with you on that one, that's a great one.  It's always like, well now she wants a very precise item that she can remember she wore last week and we have no idea if it's in the wash or not. And then you're hurriedly going through going, oh my goodness, where's that one blue dress that she said she really wanted to wear today. 

Sometimes when, um, children, small children are in that heightened state, when they might be having a tantrum about not wanting to wear shoes, um, reducing the amount of words, it's really good because when they're in that kind of tantrum state, the thinking part of their brain isn't working, it's the emotions that are taking over, so, so reducing the number of words means the brain hasn't got to work so hard.

Or even just using pictures and you could just draw on a bit of paper, a picture of a wellies and a picture of some other shoes and just get at the point that it's, it's time to come out. Now we need to put on shoes. Which shoes? These ones or these ones. Thank you. And saying thank you at the end of your request as well, rather than please kind of almost gives them that assumption that they're going to do it.

I mean,  that's a, that's a good point. Yeah. Please choose to choose. Alright, do you want the boots or the shoes? You choose, thank you, and it's, it's kind of that done deal almost. So, so that's just another little thing to think about when children are in that height of state, cause you know, the under fives, they're often the smallest name, and it makes them upset, doesn't it?

But it's just remembering that less words in those moments, rather than, oh, it's, it's ever so rainy today outside, you know, while they're crying away, well, it's ever so rainy, I think, you know, I think it's going to get worse.  Well, I think, I think the Wellies would be better because I'm a computer and that's it, it's just too much information.

So, yeah. Yeah. Something to bear in mind. And the other thing too, because she's, she's loads better at it than me is, we try not to be in those moments of tension. We try not to repeat an instruction or a request, uh, until we counted eight. In our heads. In our heads. Um, so, so right. It's time to get the shoes.

We wouldn't say that again for like eight seconds. And because it's that process, them processing the instruction.  And then sometimes if you repeat it with different words, then that becomes a new instruction. So it's, if you do repeat that, just using the exact same words, because then they haven't got to rethink it.

Right. I think we've kind of picked up in various places, but talking to you as well, and kind of before recording as well, that kind of importance of language and,  The way we talk to, to toddlers, especially, um, yeah, to some extent it feels almost a bit daunting, the kind of minefield of working out what, what should I be saying and what's helpful to say, and it feels like the advice often changes quite a lot.

You're sometimes tempted just to do what, Like it happened when you were little. So like my parents were like, well, if you don't take a coat, you're just going to be cold.  And sometimes I almost go into that mentality of, well, fine,  you're also going to be cold at the end of it. I'm like, no, but I don't want you to be cold.

I'd like you to wear a coat. Um, and I would to be like, no, don't just drop into what, like I was told, try and think for yourself. Um, so I just wondered if there were any other kind of tips around language. I think some titles. Rather than saying just no, because sometimes that can make them panic that it's going to be never, it's kind of, uh, it might be saying,  when we've done.

This, then we will do that. Some things are just to know, um,  that's just life. But rather than, um, if they ask for something and you say, well, no, it's kind of, just kind of telling them when that thing is going to happen. So it might be just about sitting down for tea and they want to go outside. Um, so it's not just, you know, you can't go outside because then you get the tantrum and then they won't eat.

Hey, um, so, but it might be, well, when you've had tea.  Then you can have five minutes outside on your trampoline or perhaps not on the trampoline for tea. Um, but it's that kind of thing or when we've had tea and then you've had your sleep and you can go outside tomorrow morning. So it's, it's that kind of, um, Not putting up that kind of a messed up panic for them, which, which then gets them upset because there's a lot of toddler, um, behaviors about control, that need for control, isn't it?

So, um, because, yeah,  so it's just helping them, um, to regain that control over the situation that, oh, actually I can go outside, it's just not right now, so. With the, um, sort of behaviors, just asking them what you want them to do rather than what you don't want them to do. Because again, that's a language and they've got to process two things and what you don't want them to do.

So, um, it's just kind of saying what it is you want them to be doing. Um, that's a really useful thing. Yeah. Yeah, Sue hinted at it earlier, we  depersonalize a lot of things. So she, I think Sue said earlier, your coat's waiting for you, your tea's waiting for you,  the carrots are waiting for you. So it's not, it's not, you need to do this.

It's kind of placing, making the out, the object, the, the focus really, um, is one language thing we use a lot. And I think another, another thing we learned with a particularly one little girl is, um, When she left nursery, we didn't speak much. Uh, we didn't make, we didn't say, Oh, what have you done today? Was it a good time?

What's your problem? We, we kind of just left the space because she'd put all her energy into coping with nursery  and was in a heightened, exhausted, probably just like  some of us introverts after people, I need my space. Uh, so we'd leave that space. And then over tea, we might say. Oh, did you have a good time today?

So, so, you know, we just created a, an environment where we're not asking too many things in the moment,  um, about what's gone on. Um, and, and often we'd be met with blanks after the nursery, whereas over TV, you get the full story about what went on,  um, and that just became language, a much better use of language from our point of view and the little girls.

And it was about building relationships because, um, what Nigel hasn't said is when we would walk her from the nursery and Nigel gruffalo and he would hide behind like gateposts in people's drives and then go about and she loved that because that's just what she needed she just needed that.  relational aspect when she'd been at nursery and it had taken all her energy to try and do what she was supposed to be doing.

Um, and then when we got in, um, we just, she'd sit on the sofa, um, on, on her sofa was what she, you know, she'd been doing. You go with her sofa, um, and watch TV and, um, whatever it was, 20 minutes. Um, she just needed that, that space, but a relationship as well. What's so important. I think, you know, that we didn't just kind of walk home in silence.

I think the other thing we do a lot language wise is. I don't know what the technical term is. We over talk. So I'll say, Oh, Sue, I think it's time to have our tea now. What do you think, Sue? Do you think it'd be a good idea to have our tea? So we're not addressing Lily in your case or the  children we're looking at. 

Talking Over them  because we're, we're, we're trying to create a, an expectation of what's going to happen next to defuse and to, Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to put my coat on soon. Are you going to put your coat on soon?  And it doesn't always work. I'm not, you know, life's like, I think that it does have some impact that, that it's kind of just great in a different language environment, rather than saying, come on, put your coat on. 

I'm putting my coat on. Sue, are you putting your coat on? We're all putting our coats on type scenario.  Yeah, and it's that, um, taking away the demands, but actually they're tuning into what's needed or what's about to happen. So it's, it's quite a useful, um, little thing. Lots of, um,  praise as well. I think we praise lots of things, don't we?

When we see them with the children. Again, sometimes it's depended on the children that we've had because,  um, some of the children who come into care, um,  Get very embarrassed or they feel shame quite a lot and so over praising them can sometimes um, make them withdraw or just feel like, Oh, you don't understand me cause I'm not like that.

Um, so sometimes we'll use that over talking, um, sort of saying how well they're doing something, but without it making them feel uncomfortable. So,  so that's been useful. When we go to the park, a whole kind of, or leaving somewhere that the children lie, uh, that sometimes that's always, that's been a challenge, hasn't it?

So, um, we've always stood on the hill, um, or say goodbye to the slide and say goodbye to the swings, um, and give them that pre warning as well. So you might be on the swing, right, we're going to have a few more push, pulls on, pushes on here on the swing, um,  then we'll get off and then it'll be time to go.

Um, or five more minutes, or one more minute, just that pre warning, and then, right, it's time to say goodbye. Now,  it does work, it does work well, but that doesn't mean that there aren't tears. But we don't kind of give in because it's again about those boundaries. Um, so, Will might walk with the little girl and she's like, crying, crying away.

Bye, bye, slide. Bye, bye, slide. And she's all crying.  But it is that important thing of walking with them because that's, it's, That's what we've said is going to happen. And so it's important that that kind of is what happens. So by the time we're in the car, she's usually okay, isn't she? Um, and we use distraction a lot as well.

So maybe in those scenarios,  Oh, do you know what you, why don't you carry the ball to the car? You know, if you've got the Peppa Pig ball with us. And so it's that kind of distraction. Um, we use that quite a lot. Sort of generally, don't we? And this is another, another one, even with them at that young age, just letting them know that, you know, it must be really upsetting for them to have to leave.

It's so disappointing. We've got to leave the park. Um, Oh, I know you didn't really want to come shopping. I don't understand that, but you know what? Let's have a cuddle. And later on, we're going to do X, Y, and Z. So just you saying. I understand you're feeling really disappointed. I understand you're feeling really upset.

Do something to help with the calming as well. So, so that's been something we, we use as well. You were saying about kind of saying, no, we can't do that right now, but this is what we're going to do later or, or various versions of, of that. In my head, I'm thinking that a lot of that so easily slips into kind of promising something good to try and distract them from what's going on or, you know, offering some sort of. 

Rewards for behaving well now saying, you know, we can have an ice cream when we get home. If you you just walk  Quietly, I don't think we see as a reward. It's just being clear and honest about what's gonna happen next  So it's about moving  It's about defusing the moment  With what's gonna happen next so it's not a It's not, if you do this, this good thing will happen later, it's, it's just setting out that routine in a really clear way.

And I guess, again, I don't know, but psychologically it's just to give, just to give the little one some hope in that moment that there's something else beyond this immediate, um, distress, you know, that, that's in very simple terms. So, yeah.  So we're not saying if you behave now and leave the park, this good thing will happen later.

We're just saying we've finished with the park now, um, we're now going to do this. And then later we're going, this is what's going to happen. You know, so it's those kinds of things really. Um,  and I was, one of the things which just comes to mind as we're chatting, we've noticed this slightly off tangent, but again, it's just how important some of these things are.

If we meet family and have a meal out, We've noticed a couple of times, you know, that the waiter or the waitress will come and say what do you want to drink  and we've all ordered our drinks and our little one will have her bottle, but she's burst into tears when the drinks arrive,  there isn't a specific drink for her. 

So now we started to say, can we have a glass and a straw and we'll give her a little bit of apple juice or, you know, and as she gets older, she'll have her own little apple juice. And I'm just telling that story because.  I think we underestimate, um, how the feelings might be going on in, in the moment. 

And so, uh,  we're not trying to reward something, we're just trying to understand what might be happening. And, and to get a handle on how we might be feeling in those, you know, we've learned to cope perhaps as adults, but it's just helping transitions, is perhaps a good word, from one thing to the next in a way which is not based around crisis or, or tantrum and stuff.

There seems to be more of a shift towards kind of relational sense of, Trying to understand our children as, you know, little humans that have their own needs and emotional, you know, and, and trying to be with them. Some of the kind of parenting norms have been about seeing children as just expecting good behavior because they're children, they will do what we say.

Yeah, I was going to say also, Lily's got a very big sense of equality.  So like, if, if you've got something, she's like, well, why wouldn't I? Like, with the drink situation, of course you would have a drink, because everybody else is getting a drink. Um, and it's quite useful in the car now, because I'm like, well, everybody has to wear a seatbelt.

So it's not just you, we all have to do it. But it is a struggle, because it's a work of life. But adults can do things that you can't do, and I know that seems unfair, because you're very much about that things should be fair for everybody. Yeah. But I think we know so much more now about how the brain works and how we develop as people and, and, and it's been a real steep learning curve, understand some of that and some of the  is a more normal for you, but we've touched on it before, you know, you're influenced by how you're brought up in your parents and I've just rejected so much of it.

Some of those things because I, our understandings changed and we to unlearn and relearn. Uh, and you know, sometimes Sue will say to me,  to me after, after something, probably better if you hadn't have done that. And I,  yeah, yeah. Comment because we're all on that journey of, of learning and Yeah.  You know, we understand more about who we are, you know, wonderful people that we are. 

Yeah, and I think one of the things when, when we were fostering it,  you know, it was a steep learning curve for us. Um, but what, you know, one of the books it talked about, um, the fact that, you know, if there are two of you that sometimes, you know, it is easy to get drawn into, especially if it's like a, a toddlers having a tantrum and they're kind of screaming at you, you are very heightened in that.

Um, but it was actually about taking a breath. And being able to walk away and then the other person coming in, um, yeah, and not necessarily having a different message so that, you know, they're not playing you off, but just to give you that breath so that you, you reduce those times when you say things that you wish you hadn't said or you do things that you wish you hadn't said.

And I think it was, it was nice to read that actually you had permission to do that, that was an okay thing to say, but I think that was, you know, that was quite, quite helpful really. Yeah, I think we have that sort of like tone.  So I can tell Elliot, if he's getting real straight, I'm like,  I don't think that tone might not be helping.

Maybe  let's switch. And let's try and say it, because like, I know he's trying to calm her down, but because he's saying it in quite like a,  Anxiety wave. I'm like, that's not going to help her calm down, but it's been interesting.  I get the look, Elliot, across the room. That's what I get. I get one of those, yeah.

I go, okay, yeah, I understand. It is quite interesting because obviously now my hormones are all over. We're having to switch positions where he's like, do you want me to take over? And I'm like, yes, yes. I don't, I don't know if I could deal with this right now.  I think the things that we talked earlier about timeouts, those things are interesting, really.

We've occasionally done it. We've not, we've not done it in a way which excludes the children. So, um, I remember we did have some really difficult times with one, um, three and a half, four year old and her time outs. I used to sit with her on the sofa. We just sit in silence. So we weren't shaming and ostracizing, but we were saying.

No, this behavior is not acceptable now, we need to just pause, we need to take some time and, um,  and you could almost feel sometimes if it was like a graph, you know, you could feel the tension drift away in the silence.  And at some point they would test whether they could start playing with their toys again.

And sometimes you'd say, no, no, no, we just need to sit a bit longer. And just think about what, what would have, what's happened, then  it would become very calm after a while. And I'm talking sometimes 30 minutes now, just that silence.  I wouldn't want to do it in a way which brought shame and alienation, which I know is really difficult, but that's just our approach. 

So those times, a lot of times it was shorter than that, wasn't it? It might have been a few minutes, and sometimes it was to break a cycle of, so it might have been a  meal time, where something that she'd had the previous week you put in front of her. I don't like that! I'm not eating it and, and, you know, forkfuls might start to go over the, off the plate.

And so  where we ate is in the same room as where the sofas are. And so  we'd just have some time away from the table. One of us would sit. with her. Now, when she was like that, she didn't want you to sit right next to her. But as she was calming, you'd move a little bit along. And we always finish those times with a cuddle, didn't we?

So, um, you know, if she had had a bit of space away from a situation, we always finished it with a cuddle, um, to make sure, you know, that that relationship was, was repaired.  But yeah, no, it was, it was never really time out. It was more time away from a situation. And, and we used to do, um,  it was like a picture of penguin and, and you, you could trace it around and you breathed in for one bit and out for another bit.

And she really enjoyed doing that as part of that calming. So we called it a penguin breathing. Um, and she would do that and that would just really help with her calmness. Um, so that was, yeah, that was really interesting. Cause. Um, as I just said, a lot of the children that will come into care, you know, have experienced that shame and the time out is another of those shame things.

And it's really hard for a young child to kind of reflect on what they've done. They kind of need someone to do that with them. So, um, I didn't, we felt it didn't really achieve anything to kind of sit on the bottom step or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And people have done in the past. We talked earlier about generational differences. 

When I've explained this to other people, they've said, Oh, Oh, you don't have any boundaries and you're a soft touch. Then  we have to say, no, that's not the case. We talk a lot about natural consequences. So, so if, if we've taken up the time. Allocated in the day, um, because we've needed time out things. It means we can't watch telly because, you know, it's now time for bed, for example.

So, so it's not like saying, oh yeah, do what you want, get away with it. It's kind of saying, because we've made this choice, it means we now can't do this, you know.  So I think that those boundaries are, it's just a different way of looking at boundaries, which I think the children find really helpful. Yeah, I mean, it's like trying to keep things like any of those consequences within the day rather than carrying it over  because young children don't understand that I've got an understanding of time in the same way that we have. 

Um, if something had happened on one day, that consequence you try and keep within the same day rather than, well, tomorrow we won't be able to do this. And, well, there's no incentive for them to get up and do the right thing in the morning.  Because they're not going to be doing what they want to do. So, so again, that, yeah, it's, and sometimes it was like, if, um, You know, a toy had been broken, you know, well, the consequences, you won't be able to play with it anymore.

So it wasn't, it doesn't  need it to be an, an extra punishment for that because that in that sense was a punishment, wasn't it? Wouldn't be able to play with it anymore. So. Um, yeah, so it was very much, um, about, yeah, there's natural logical consequences. We perhaps bring some of the things we talked about together, you know, so if we sit with your example of not wanting clothes, I might say, Hey Sue, if we don't get ready soon, we won't have time to go to the park.

What do you think Sue? Do you think we should get ready? And so you're kind of, you're building in that process, there's a holistic approach to it. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. We've really been stuck. We're quite similar, um. I think with like with timeouts and things. Yeah. It's not a punishment. It's more. It's not once that you've been going.

Oh, should we breathe? I don't want to breathe. Don't go for quite a minute there. So clearly. I want to calm down. Yeah.  With her, it seems to me she gets so heightened. She doesn't want to hug. She doesn't want to do breathing. She just wants to take herself away for a moment.  To kind of almost self regulate after he's been in.

Yeah. And then you have to go look at her and go, You feeling a bit, a bit better now?  And then she'll come back in and do a hug. But I think, I don't know, it's too much when I'm like, Do you want a hug? Do you want to breathe? Should we try and do breaths?  But we had a big discussion about time out, didn't we?

Because um,  my sister in France, her son in school was made to stand in the corner, at the front of the class. And she basically, um, completely lost it, being like, that's really not on. I just know from all my work with adults, there's way too many adults  whose whole lives are tainted by some of those negative early childhood experiences.

And, you know, they're held back, their confidence. They might be suffering from imposter syndrome. They might never have got over that humiliation. They might be living with shame. All it's just, the list goes on and on and on, really. So I just think all of those things, you're on a bit of odd ground, if that's the approach, not everyone.

Some people are more resilient, but for some people that, you know, one incident  shapes their whole future. And I'm not, you know, I'm not overstating that. Countless stories where that's happened, you know.  And I think that's really sad. I'm sure we get stuff wrong.  The more we can do what we think's the right thing, I think.

Yeah. Me is, is my goal. Yeah. That's right.  And it's about how I like to be treated, you know, that's Yeah, yeah. What would I like in this moment?  Is always, I think. Do you have any recommendations of where people could go to kind of, if they want to learning more or this is a topic that's of interest? Have you read the Case of Witterer book?

There's no  such word as naughty or something like that. It's quite an interesting book to read because that is particularly aimed at parents and new and fives and it does talk a bit more about the brain and how toddler brains work and reactions to that um and how they can We can develop them to be more helpful and so that's, that's quite a nice starting point for sort of, uh, something to read.

I like, uh, it's getting a bit geeky, but I like family systems theory. People are really interested in checking that out. It's, it's, it's not just about children now, but it's about how we firefight and how we manage situations and how we respond. And, and I think having that understanding that we are all different and we all react in different ways, I've just found really, really helpful.

It's a big topic, family systems theory, but you know, if you can find a simple, um, I'm a big fan of these four minute video animations. That's the kind of, yeah, kind of, yeah. I think that things like that, just, I find really, you know, I just recommend people perhaps take a look at that really. Again, YouTube is a great resource.

You have to be wise about sources, but, you know, understanding, uh, some children, uh, you know, don't like demands put on them. So, you know, just checking out something, what that demand avoidance kind of thing might look like, uh, there's obviously a lot. in the news about well being and on the autistic spectrum and neurodiversity.

I think, again, just increasing your understanding around those, um, it's about checking that out. You know, what, what does that mean?  And what, what, what adjustments might I need to make?  Well, this has been, this has been amazing.  So much. It's been wonderful to have this conversation and, uh, Yeah, get lots of tips and trips and just, yeah, share some of the experiences and some of your wisdom and expertise. 

Um, so thank you so much for agreeing to come and do this with us. It's been really good. We've really enjoyed it. Hope we haven't talked too much. 

There we are. Thank you to Nigel and Sue for joining us. It was really good. What did you make of all that, Emma?  It was a lot of information, but my main one, I think I'm gonna try and do simple steps. So the main one I'm taking away currently is the saying thank you instead of please after requesting something.

Because I thought that was really clever and a simple one for me to kind of remember in the moment.  I think I really took away that sense of not overloading them with different words and language. I think we often fall into that trap of trying to say things in different ways and repeating ourselves.

Or like over explaining why they should do something. Yeah, yeah, and just giving them some space to process. I think that's a really good reminder. Yeah. Yeah, a really good habit to try and get into. Yeah, but all, yeah, like you say, feel like you could listen to that over and over again. Because  there's quite a lot of information to, to digest from, from that.

Because I remember at the time I kept going, that's really, that's a really good idea. That, that's a good idea. And we could have talked for ages really, and jumped in and explored all those topics. But we wanted to let them talk and share some of their wisdom. And, ah, really good. And thank you for listening and being part of it this week.

And I hope it's been valuable and good. A bit of a different episode, a special guest bonus thing, my Bob, thing, my Bob. It's nice for us to have guests on. Oh, we love a guest. Yeah. Yeah. If you'd like to be a guest, get in touch. We're always open to guests. I mean, yeah, but you  I'm open to kind of worms now.

Well, no, not just any guest.  Yeah, yeah, whoever you are. Anyone. Anyone can be a guest.  I don't think we'll be inundated. That's true.  But, generally, I'd, you know, if you listen along to this regularly and would like to  be part of the conversation. you happen to listen to this and you don't know how you're going to do with parenting.

That's true, if you're not part of, you know, the actual,  yeah, good point, yeah. Then maybe it might not be that interesting an episode.  Anyway, this has been Don't Wake the Baby, here in the blanket fort, in the, the cozy corner of the internet. That, that, that's what this is. That's where we are.  This is where you know us from.

Be gone, goodbye. We'll hear you next time. Have a nice life. Can you tell we haven't eaten? It's getting to lunchtime and we're, we're both crashing a bit.  God bless. Sleep well. Don't wake the baby. Bye. Bye.