Low PAPP-A | What you need to know about PAPP-A during pregnancy

What is Low PAPP-A (Pregnancy-Associated Plasma Protein-A) and how does it affect pregnancy? Slightly different episode this week. This is the one where Emma and Elliot chat about their journey with a high-risk pregnancy and Emma details the specifics of Low PAPP-A for those with low levels and are worried about what it means. There's a lack of clear information and many don't have their numbers explained by the NHS. We discuss test results, complications, scans, small babies, misinformation, tips and more.

Disclaimer - we are not medical professionals, but all information is correct to the best of our knowledge. Do seek expert advice from those trained and knowledgeable in this field. 

Listen to our previous conversation about the whole of our second pregnancy:
NHS Stress | Parents discuss second pregnancy journey

The Low PAPP-A Facebook Community that Emma mentions a number of times:
Low Papp A Pregnancy Support Group

If you prefer to watch along on YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@dontwakethebaby_podcast

Engage with us on Instagram
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Find resources, Elliot's faith & spirituality projects and more on our website:
www.kairosmovement.org.uk/dontwakethebaby/

Unwind on sleepless nights to a wholesome mix of parenting stories, quirky humour, and cosy crafting. We’re not here to provide answers but to share our experiences, explore how parenting has changed, and build an online community of parents for mutual support.

A fun, honest and unscripted conversation between Emma and Elliot on non-judgemental parenting and millennial-based topics, as we relax on an evening attempting an artistic or creative activity. 

We are a project in partnership with The Kairos Movement and supported by The Methodist Church, of which The Kairos Movement is a part

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:30 Parenting Achievements
• 8:20 Main conversation part 1
• 25:35 Why we do the show segment
• 27:45 Main conversation part 2
• 44:15 Stories from Listeners
• 48:00 Ending

Transcript

 So Emma, what are we discussing today? Today we are discussing, um, low tap a, what it is, and kind of does it affect anything in pregnancy.

Welcome back to the Crippen household once again, to unwind and chat with friends about parenting, sharing the struggles and share sharing, sharing the struggles, sharing the struggles, and celebrating the successes. Uh, we're not experts or celebrities, but your favorite amateur hobby podcast people join us today, sat in our imaginary, where we gonna be in our cabin in the woods.

Yep. You've recently been to see Snow White. I have. I actually really enjoyed it. Controversial opinion. Yeah. Lilly loved it. I enjoyed it. We've, uh, we've not got any mythical dwarves, uh, with us. You can imagine if you like, well, you could count Lola as a cheeky goblin if people can hear. We have a very lively special guest today of Baby Lola.

Yes, definitely. It's not, don't wake the baby, the baby's already awake. If you're new here, and dunno who these strange people talking to you are. I'm Elliot, the tall one, the dyslexic one. The only child and across from me is, uh, my co-host. Yeah, I'm Emma. What did you start off with? I can't even remember.

Something, uh, the short one, not dyslexic. And the multi birth, who also happens to have two other sisters as well. Just to add to the fun little factoid for you today. Um, question for you, Emma. What's your favorite takeaway? Ooh, normally Chinese, definitely the best takeaway. What's your favorite takeaway?

Probably pizza. Probably pizza. Do, do you like a pizza? Eh? So little, little Ola is four months, almost five months now, months five. Uh, we also have her big sister, Lily, who's almost four. Yeah, so there's oh four of us, two daughters. We live in Yorkshire, in Harrogate. And uh, yeah, that's, that's a bit about us.

Lily's favorite takeaway is anything with rice. Anything with rice, yeah. Yeah. She generally thinks if you get a takeaway, she calls it ice rice is in it. Yep. Although yesterday she was disappointed. The takeaway didn't have mashed potato. Yeah. Who knows why she thought that's what was gonna happen. The mind of a toddler.

There you go.

Bing. It's parenting achievement time, uh, the little segment at the beginning of the show where we chat about funny stories and, uh, parenting fails. Uh, what level of parenting have you unlocked this week? Gamma? Me. Oh. Have you got any stories? Oh yeah, probably tons. I think last time you did talk about that you were gonna share a story about a library book.

Oh, yes. And this is entirely my failing. One day we were like, oh, we need some excitement in our lives. Let's go to the library. Um, 'cause we used to go all the time for story time, but Li Lily's kind of outgrown that now 'cause she's a big 4-year-old. She wanted to go pick a book. 'cause I was like, oh great.

This will be exciting. Lola had a complete tantrum though, so Ellie had to come save us and pick us up early. Mm. But anyway. We got this library book Now this library book has been sat by the front door. I'm not kidding. Probably three weeks waiting to return to the library. Has, has anyone read it? Has anyone read the library book?

Uh, no. No, because it turned out it was a Pokemon book, but it didn't have a story and it just showed different. I was Pokemon. Did you not know this when you borrowed it? Nope. 'cause we were in a rush. 'cause was having a big tantrum. I see. And Lily was being pedantic about what books she wanted. All right.

We haven't read it. Yeah. Lily feels it was like an ongoing joke in our house for a few weeks where we'd passed this book and go, we better return that. We better return that. Like days would pass, weeks would pass. We've still not returned the library book. I kept going like it's gonna be, I know it won't be big, big, but I was like, this is gonna be a huge fine by the time we take it back because it was really, and literally, I'm not kidding.

The library is like a five minute walk down the road from us. Yeah, it's not far. It's not far. I even went to the library one time with Lily and told them, I, you a booked, I'm so sorry. I finally took the book back. Hmm. Um, and they, it was great 'cause they were like, oh, our system's been down for like two months.

We've become like a big North Yorkshire Council, north York Council. We've all merged. We've all merged. It's all terrible. But since then they have downward the council. Thank you. They have to get a new system in place for taking out books for the library. I dunno, they're updating or changing their system or so something system.

Anyway, that means they've broken their entire system and nothing works. None of their electronics. And so they were telling system works. Oh, it doesn't matter. That slate. And of course, you know the library is, yeah. Is a community library. It's run by little old volunteers. It is. Who have no idea about technology at the best of times?

No. Um, so yeah, they have no idea who's got what books or whether they're late or she took it backs. Like I, she took it back and the woman was like, I have no way of telling the system. You've handed it back. And I was like, okay. And she was like, I'll note it down though, so you won't get a fine. You want, but I don't even know if they can give you a fine because we have no idea who's got what book.

So, um, in the end it's worked out okay. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we'll get fined. Yeah. Because they have no idea who has any votes. It did amuse us, uh, a lot of the time. Yeah, it did. Yeah. I have a, I have a complaint story to, to voice. Oh, no. Is it against me? Uh, might be, might be Hide me, Lola. Um, it was a few weeks back, but, um Oh, oh, so you've held it on to be bitter.

Yeah. Know I've got it noted down in my list. No, down to voice on the podcast When something's gone wrong. I'm like, I'm gonna talk about that on the podcast. I won't forget. You were, you often put. Lily to bed and I have the baby Yes. Downstairs. And then do cleaning and things. I, I was gonna say, I was gonna say is actually you are right over there.

You two, what, what are you two up to? Just, it's just throwing us off backwards on me, right? Yes. Yeah. You tell your story, right? Ignore us story time. We're being like a floppy fish. So. We had a, a partial success in that we had a night where Lily slept through and stayed in her room all night through, which is the first time that's happened in months and months, basically Si since I was pregnant, she didn't want to sleep by herself.

Yeah. Yeah. The, the reason for this success though is that someone not, not naming any names, had let her go to sleep on a beanbag. Um, so I came upstairs and came in the room, um, and found a certain, someone, a fast asleep, lying on a beanbag. In my defense, she really wanted to sleep on the beanbag and um, I didn't wanna fight it.

I was like, yeah, she really wants to sleep on the beanbag tonight. And you know what kept her asleep? That bean bag bag. Well, yeah, this is, I was shaking my head, but I'm like, well, it did, it did. She did sleep the night through and didn't come in our room in the middle of the night. This is how ridiculously is though.

She wants to be as close to the floor as possible, but she has a floor bed. She has a floor bed. She couldn't be closer to the floor. Really? Yeah. Yeah. What, what have we unlocked? We've unlocked letting our kids sleep on a beanbag all night. Um, and it worked. It was kind of a success, kind of a fail. Um, I also thought we should mention, we've started doing some weaning with Lola, so she's begun eating some food.

Um, and, uh, we now have that, we're in that fun phase where. We get very grumpy stares. Yes. When, uh, if you're eating anything around her, she'll stare at you. I, I had this wonderful moment the other day when I was eating something in front of her and she had this wonderful smile on her face. She looked so happy.

She was like, oh, food, look at that. And then her face slowly. Sank as the realization dawned on her that this is not, not for you, for, this wasn't food for her, that I was just eating in front of her and she wasn't gonna get any. And just the look of complete betrayal on her face. She was like, what are you doing?

It's just, just, just that it only matter of seconds. But that quick transition from like absolute joy into No, you are not gonna give me the food, was just hysterical. Anyway, there we go. There's some stories from us. Things going on. I mean, there's loads of loads of other things going on in our lives, but we'll save stories for next time.

Yeah.

Okay. Take some more heartburn tablets and let's jump into our conversation for today, which is one that Emma has specifically requested we talk about. So do you wanna, I have intro, what this is and why we're talking about it. So if people don't know and they haven't listened to any other podcast, this pregnancy, we had lopa and I was very confused what that was.

Yes. Um, there doesn't seem to be that much research into it and I thought there's so many questions people end up having on this Facebook group. Why don't we do it an episode on what it is, kind of what it means, what can happen with it, our story, try and make people feel kind of comforted that it's. Not horrific.

Um, sorry. No, the baby's just been sick all over my jump. She keeps, keeps being sick. Um, so bear with me a second. Yes. We, we have done an episode where we chatted about our journey through pregnancy, particularly early pregnancy. Um, and we mentioned it as an aside in that, that it, it was something that had come up in tests and, and kind of.

The whole overview of the journey through that. But this is a more detailed look at this one particular issue. Mm. And, uh, yeah, so probably gonna be an Emma heavy episode today. Yes. So I, but I'll, so who knows where it'll go? 'cause Emma's in charge. You, you know, I'm a lover of tangents, or rather I can't help but go down a, I'm impressed.

You've actually got some notes. I have quite, it's quite complicated. Okay. So. So, okay, I'll, I'll be the Guinea pig. Start from the beginning and if I don't understand anything, I'll, I'll jump in. So my first thing is gonna be trying to explain what low pape is. Yeah, yeah. Um, so at the start of your pregnancy, if you're in the uk, you get, um, a blood test run.

Um, it basically to check. Is there anything like abnormal in the pregnancy? Are the hormones going up the right amount? All this other stuff? And LOPA Bay is where the protein in the blood is lower than expected. During pregnancy, you normally have it done about 12 weeks. I think they say it was done like too late.

It's no longer accurate. So I remember at that 12 week. Blood testy thing. Yes. We kind of, you got, there was like three results. You got back for different things. Is that right? There's technically four results. 'cause you also have your 12 week scan and that's when they look at the, um, is it neural? Let me look it up.

Al Al because this was also the point at which we had the thing about Downs. Is that right? Yes. It's very common with people. Um, I'll cover that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, it was in amongst those test results, which is when they, one of the, the indicating factors was, ah, you, you have a, a low pape reading, neural tracted, um, so you get a score for that, if that's big or small.

So it can be, if it's big, it's a sign of Down syndrome. If it's. It's like small, it's not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So remind me again, I can't remember if you said this, what is low Pape? Pape? Is that like a protein or something that they're measuring? So it's, yeah, it's the levels of protein in the blood. Okay. In the first trimester, and it's part of a screening test for chromo, chro, chromo, chromo, chromo, chromosomal, chromosomal, chromosomal, um, conditions like down syndrome, Patau syndrome.

Right, right, right. It can be 'cause it's related to the placenta. So it can be a sign of like higher risk things of, um, preterm labor like and the fetal growth restriction. Yes, I remember this. I remember, I remember it was all to do with the the placenta, wasn't it? Yeah. And about flow through that. Exactly.

So the main thing they worry about, so this is if you've suddenly got the thing and they say you've got low pa, the main thing they actually worry about is that near the end of pregnancy because the placenta stops working properly. Oh, it's okay, Lola, that um, there's a reduction in growth near the end.

So normally this is when I'm like, don't really worry near the start because if you're gonna have problems, it's generally near the end of your pregnancy. But I try and like remind everybody and everybody, um, in this Facebook group I'm part of, we always say to each other, it's just a risk factor. So it's not a diagnosis.

You could be completely fine. And in our case we were completely fine. We had no issues whatsoever. But it just is a thing that they. Lovely. A thing they look for, um, just means you get extra scans most of the time, but it does depend on the trust you're with. Now this is the interesting part. So you will have been given, if you have lopa, you are given four, well, three numbers.

The first one is HCG, which is um, I think hormone hormone. Something gross. Basically your hormone level, and then you are given your loep a level, and then your NT level, which is the measurement in the back of the baby's neck. And typically this is given with a little thing beside it's saying MOM, which stands for multiple of the median, which is basically compares the average medium result of everybody.

So ideally. You should get a one on each of these things. So your HEG one's perfect. Low PA one's perfect. NT one is the perfect score. It's very, yeah, very math heavy. It is very math. Heavy math. I remember one, they were describing us to it in the hospital. I was, right, right. Get my head in in, yeah. Our numbers for reference, so our hormone level was 2.5.

So basically over twice as much as it should have been. Um, our low PA a level was 0.3 and our NT was 0.8. So our NT number was fine. That was really close to what it should be. Our low PA a was pretty low. Um, and our, well, all these things though is there's, like, you work within margins of error. Mm-hmm. So what.

Some places might consider low or high, other places might not. Yeah. So it's really helpful depending on different factors it, for those who are podcast regular listeners, Becky and Francis, who mentioned, um, so I remember when I first got my test scores. Yeah. Um, it's like, you've done an exam. I've an exam.

I did. You do? How were your test scores? I said to Becky, oh, we've got. We've got these numbers. Um, and she wasn't dissimilar. I think she had 0.4 for low pap a. Mm. And in France they're much more lenient about what is low. Yeah. So I think the could have point for them would be just under 0.3. Yeah. So I never would've been contacted about it.

Yeah. Um, and that sort of thing always makes me feel so much more. Ha, you know, happier because Yeah, secure. Recognizing we, we often have this with your sister, um, in France, that their system works on totally different criteria. Mm-hmm. Well, which makes you then go, oh, well if it was really dangerous. Yeah.

And if we had this exact thing, if we were in France right now, they wouldn't be worried, so. Exactly. Yeah. You know, also what often happens is you have this initial test, you have low pa, and because low PA can be sometimes, rarely. Sometimes a signifier for another condition. Mm-hmm. Um, so in our case, they said there's a, um, one in 83 chance Yeah.

That your chart has downs and it then means you have to, well, you don't have to, but we chose to go through another test. Yeah, yeah. Um, so basically, I don't know what the initial screening test is called. She seems happy down there. Yeah. Um, but the second test is called the NIPT test. Okay. And that is way more accurate, so I'd recommend getting that one.

Feel like I'm in a, like a class. Yeah. With, with Emma. Emma as the teacher, please tell us all the information. Um, allow N-I-P-T-N-I-P-T test. Right. Will I, will I be, uh, is there gonna be an exam at the end of this episode? There might be. Will. I have to remember these things, but just to make people feel happy, that's kind of the golden standard.

So even though it won't say yes or no, it'll give you high likelihood or low likelihood of having any of disorders. Ah, yes, I remember. So like that the first thing with the blood test Yes. Is like fairly inaccurate. It isn't it? It's kind of a, it was really helpful. Not everybody gets this and this is when our hospital was very good.

We had, um, access to a specialist and she explained to us the first test very often false positive. Mm. So. A lot of people are called up who they will have nothing wrong in their pregnancies. Um, oh, and also what she did, which was really good, is she compared, she gave me my notes from my last pregnancy.

Mm. Um, so I could see the numbers difference. And actually for us, um, having had a pregnancy before I. What we noticed was your numbers weren't that different, not that dissimilar. And actually because other factors are taken into account like your age. Yeah, that's what like pushed you over the line. So my low per pay last time was also a little bit loaned but not quite as low.

And my HTG was once again high, just not as high. So they were just slightly elevated, slightly lowered, which then clearly put us in like a different category, but it wasn't dissimilar at all from our last scores. Okay, you've got 10 minutes. Lola, any of you are messing about when we'll put you to sleep?

Yeah, a bit of a threat there. Put you to sleep, right? Where did we get to the genealogy lady? Genealogist lady. Oh, yes. Yeah. I'm afraid your, your students in your class are not, uh, on their best behavior. Oh, don't worry. Me and Lola are, they're messing about playing games at the back of the classroom. Right.

We're ready. Teacher please continue to teach us things. So she'd shown us our results from last time, so we felt more secure that it wasn't that different. So, um, this is a good tip. If you are going through this and you have had, um, a previous pregnancy. You can ask to look at your old records, um, and it might make you feel a bit better with similar numbers, but this was leading us to say that the NI PT test test is a lot more accurate, a lot more accurate.

Um, so the first test, um, I think it just puts people through a lot of stress for no reason really. Yeah. Um, second test, much more thorough. Um, and if you get a low chance result on that, it's basically, that's not, it's not, it's like, you know, there's tiny chance, but. We were basically told that's gold standard.

If that says no, you don't have it. Yeah. So what they do, once again, this is why it's a ridiculous system. It's based on the trust, so. We were prescribed aspirin to take, not everybody is, but I, um, about, I think about 80% of people I've come across who've had LOPA have been prescribed aspirin to take throughout their pregnancy.

Um, I can't remember the dose, but it's quite, it's with me, it was two pills you took, um, once a day. Um, and that's to help the placenta blind pump blood effectively. 'cause I think it makes the blood thinner so it's easy to get round. So therefore it's, it's meant try and avoid you getting preeclampsia and help the baby's growth.

You are on that. I got much, much more, many more. Many more nosebleeds, um, than my last pregnancy. And I do think it was down to taking aspirin. Then you also get just additional scans, and I was given, um, a specialist who I had to meet with. Basically after a scan, I'd have the nurse talked to me, and then after, I think like the third scan or something, I had an appointment with a specialist who just talked through.

Did they think the baby was growing the right amount? Um, in our case it was quite good. She was always, always right. Um, so that was all good. But then we had the problem, this is an additional thing that many people won't have, but we were given a test for gestational diabetes. Yeah. Which we were one, like 0.1 0.0.

Yeah. Very borderline, very borderline. But it then meant my specialists had to discuss together which specialist I'd be under. This was a, a real challenge for the NHS, wasn't it? That you've got two different diagnosis things, different things, which are almost. Opposing each other. They are, yeah. In the way that they're wanting to.

Often with gestational diabetes, you have a rather big baby, and with LOPA they're worry. You have two smaller babies. Yeah. Yeah. So they're like opposite problems. They're both worried about the opposite problem and prescribing you things to try and deal with the opposite thing. Just crazy. So in the end, they decided gestational diabetes would be a bigger risk.

So then weren't worried about LOPA was kind of which, yeah, just to me it was completely the wrong way around because we always took the gestational diabetes with a pinch of salt. I mean, your family all produce really big babies. We do. Like Lily was really big. First time round she was, and I passed the gestational diabetes test last time with her.

But it, it, it does make me feel comfortable. I don't think LOPA is that big a deal because I think if it was, they wouldn't have suddenly gone, oh, well now you're just in the de Destinational diabetes camp. Right. Let's not bother about low pae. Mm-hmm. Because clearly they thought that was bigger problem.

Mm-hmm. And I mean, also. Our thing was, we think the gestational diabetes was almost self-imposed. Yes. 'cause you, through most of mid pregnancy, were absolutely like single-minded, obsessed. Yeah. With the, the worry of low pape. Yeah. The result of which being a small baby. So you were like mega eating, like protein shakes and yogurts and a ton, a ton of protein.

Yeah. You were like, I wanna make this baby as big as possible because I'm so worried about it being small. Yeah. I'm, I'm gonna. Do the best. And one thing I have no idea if scientifically that is how it works. That's just, they all say it isn't. They all say it isn't. But yet suddenly you start eating all this stuff and they're like, ah, you've got gestational diabetes.

We wanna make the baby smaller. And it's like, that's true. Well, clearly. And like why, why is the pre, what's the word? Like the what they prescribe. To manage gestational diabetes. Diabetes. Why is that? Like a diet based thing? If what you eat has no effect on the size of the baby. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

Clearly. But it also amused me. My gestational diabetes diet was not very different at all from what I was eating already because I wasn't eating a ton of sugar with these ton of protein. Yeah. It was protein, not sugar. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yes. Yeah. Anyway, that, that amused us then. That's probably more specific to us, but Yeah.

But it turned, there's a few people. In the group who then worry which one they're gonna be worried about. Well, yeah. Yeah. Which, yeah, it's a common thing. Very common. And also amused me. 'cause they kept telling me like, I had an appointment with the gestational diabetes team. This one, the HS was very good.

I'd been like lots of different specialists. Mm-hmm. Um, and they had to go, now we have to tell you, it's a very high risk thing. And for someone who's had lopa, I was like, yeah. Sure is. 'cause I've been told from the beginning of this pregnancy, this is a very high risk pregnancy because you've got low par.

So when they go like, oh, it's very high. It can be high risk, you have to take it seriously. And I was like, yeah, but I've also been told it's really high risk already. Yeah. Like yeah. And high risk that you'll have a small baby. Now you're telling me it's high risk. I'm gonna have a big baby. Just the way I think they were worried I looked really calm.

Yeah. But to me, I'm like, I've already been told it's high risk. Yeah. Like this is now no news to me that this is now. You know what I mean? Now this is high risk. Because I'm like, yeah, I've already been told that, so this, this doesn't alarm me the same way. I think it, it would alarm other people. I did not really enjoy my pregnancy at all.

Yeah. Yeah, because I was really stressed, because I kept being told everything was high risk. I'm not one of those pregnant people who glows. Who looks great, who's like, oh, it's so easy. I love being pregnant. I always hate it Anyway. Yeah. Emma is a misery in pregnancy. I'm a misery. We're all a misery. It's all horrible.

This is why I won't be having another baby. Yeah. I don't enjoy pregnancy. Not enjoyable at all. Um, and this just topped it off to be stressful because Yeah. So, well, it's not a very pleasant time at the, you know, the best of times it's, you've got all this on top of it, all that stress. And I'll, I'll say the worst thing was the weight.

So if people have had A-N-I-P-T test Yeah, you get it sent off and it can take about two weeks to get the results back. Yeah. Yeah. Every day I was kind of in a state of anxiety waiting. 'cause I kept being like, I, we have to like make decisions. Yeah. And I need to know if anything's really wrong with the baby.

We talked about this in the other episode, didn't we? 'cause we went into a bit more detail on the downside of things. Yeah, yeah. So basically that weight is horrific. Yeah. So anybody going through that. Everybody goes, oh, try not to worry about it. And I'm like, you can't not. Yeah. It's really difficult. Let, let's be realistic.

Yeah. You're not, not gonna worry about it. Yeah. Like I said in the previous episode, I just played a lot of video games. Yeah. Um, but try and distract yourself. Try and distract yourself. I feel like a lot of people in the group say, don't worry. And I'm like, you shouldn't, but you will. Because you're pregnant.

It's just a reality being told by everybody, you're high risk. It is gonna make you worry. Yeah. So one of the things I wanted to note, don't panic if they say your baby's got short legs. This seems to be a common thing with low PAE babies. Oh really? And their legs normally are absolutely fine. It just happens to be that the scans for legs is rather inaccurate.

We have, we have two kids with really long legs. Yeah. We do like both of them, like, yeah. Yeah. What I've noticed in the group loads of people get told, oh, your babies legs are a bit short, and they act like it's a worry. And yet, and I've not seen any babies come out in the group and they go, oh, they've got terribly short legs.

Um, so just I feel like there's a lot of things in scans you have to remember there only a certain degree of accuracy that it's a ballpark. They're not gonna know exactly.

Don't Wake The Baby is a podcast brought to you by me and Emma, but also we are in partnership with the Kairos Movement, which is a, a organization within the Methodist Church. And we are very grateful to both of those for letting us be able to, to do this endeavor. That's how we're able to do this through the support and uh, kind of financial backing of the church.

We are kind of, you know, we're a bit religious, but maybe not in the way that. Is stereotypically seen as religious. Yeah. Um, we're not judgy. Yeah. This show isn't particularly, uh, you know, religious or, you know, you don't have to be a Christian, you don't have to believe in God or anything to be part of our community here.

No. We just kind of share that as, you know, you getting to know who we are. 'cause it is part of our, part of who we are. And, uh, we like to be honest about everything in our lives as we are with parenting. So that's kind of what we're up to. If you wanna find out more about the Kairos movement, which is, uh, a kind of a place where we call home in terms of church, uh, in terms of connecting with other faithy based people, um, and have conversations about all sorts of stuff.

Um, there's various. Different bits and pieces going on within that, that may be of interest. May not be. Yeah. Doesn't really matter. Um, you can find out more about them on the website and on our webpage where there's links to everything about what we are up to, um, and what the show's all about and why we're doing it.

And about us at www dot kara movement org uk slash dowe, the baby. Alright, quick, the links are in, down below the show notes a bit. In the places. Just go have a look. Scroll down, go down. If pe most people, if you're listening, you know how to use these apps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And my usual plea, if you could do the tappy tap things.

Oh yeah. Like in sharing. Share this episode with a friend. If you turn on notifications, that'll be fab. So you get to know when we post another episode. That would be really good. Do it now. Do it. I'm gonna wait. Wait here till you've done it. Gold star for you. Back to the episode.

I am a little. Nobody knows what Sha I mean now I've got four wheels on a running barn. I'm not hon around. I'm not Bri. Crash beep beep. Hong Kong ride right around crash, beep beep, Hong Kong, right? We're back. We're back. Um, successfully got Lola to sleep. Okay? You've gotta remember everything. Because apparently pregnancy is a magical science that nobody's investing money in is kind of, it's very inaccurate With other people I've known they've been way off.

Yeah. Yeah. And we have to also remember they add two weeks onto a pregnancy that aren't really there. Yeah. You might have got pregnant later or earlier than they think. So there's probably like a month's leeway in when Yeah. Unless you, you know the exact date you got. Well, this is one of the reasons I think, um.

You don't have your baby on a due date. Yeah. 'cause it's not an exact science. We don't know enough about it. Yeah. So when they're always talking about your baby being big or small, it's possible that it's just older or younger than they think, than they think it's, yeah. And they base the age on the weight.

So when they scan you to say Yes, exactly, when's it due? They're basically going, oh, well the baby's this big, it must be this age. Um, so just to, people don't panic too much, which I know's hard to say. The main message of the episode, the main message this episode is don't panic. It is probably all gonna be okay.

Yeah, it normally is. And if it is a problem, it'll be later on and it'll definitely be picked up. 'cause you've got loads of extra scans. Yeah, yeah. Um, to try not to worry too much about it. This is the problem really. I feel that. You've got two extremes. You've got, on the one hand, some NHS staff worrying you mm-hmm.

Because they're giving you all this information and not explaining it particularly well. Yes. And on the other hand, you've got a whole other segment of the entire medical industry that have no clue what this is. No clue. I mean, I know we spoke to a lot of people and we, you'd often start off by saying, oh, we have hello.

And they go, uh, what, what is that? Well, even, even, um. So some of the, um, community midwives. Yeah. Um, I go, oh, well I'm, I'm in this category 'cause I have low pape. And they go, well what is that? Mm-hmm. And I found that I had to, so this is this episode really, is it kind of helping educate yourself? You can then tell people various times over and over again, this is what was born out of you.

You get frustrated of the lack of information. Yeah. About, you know, the fact that I ended up reading tons of scientific papers on Google, which I got really confused by because it was also confusing. Yeah. But because nobody, we, we were quite lucky. We had a really good person who told us about it, but.

Nobody else really knows what it is. Mm-hmm. So a lot of the community red wives, they'll be like, oh, maybe I've heard of that. Maybe once you described it, they kind of knew, but a lot of them had no clue what it was. Yeah, yeah. And it's not like it's super rare. It's not like it's, it's because they've only just started measuring it, I think.

Oh, oh, okay. It's like a new one that they've picked up. Well, they technically did measure it when Lily was born, but I don't think it was part of the criteria that they. Put into effect of like making you high risk. Right. So it's just like another tick box. Yeah. Yeah. Ting. So now they, and it is good, it's good for 'em to measure all these things to make sure, you know.

Yeah, yeah. You know, like we, we always sign up to all the extra tests, we do all the extra, you know, things just to be doubly safe, doubly sure and everything. But, but we're very pro science. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, but, but in that, I would like, that's why I wanna highlight there's still a lot of inaccuracies.

Yeah. Um, and we're people who really trust medicine as science. And there's a difference between running all these tests. For the sake of it and then saying, oh, well you are high risk now. Like just do following that process blindly, because that's Yeah. True. 'cause it's on a piece of paper and they've been told that's what they have to do.

Mm-hmm. And doing it, recognizing this is why we're doing it. Yeah. We're doing it to pick up any risks early to help the baby. Like or, you know. Yeah. Yeah. For me there's a shift and the way they frame it. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of going, oh, you're super high risk. Mm. And worrying you, they could go, don't worry about it.

It's really not that serious. We just have some like, just make the most of your extra scams. It means that later on we can keep an eye on you. Yeah. And keep things safe. And like as a positive, you're gonna see your baby more. You're gonna have extra scans. I was saying to Elliot, I've never been scanned so much last time I barely got scanned.

Yeah. This, this time. Ton of scams. The other thing, not to panic, if you are quite a small person, you might just have a smaller baby. Mm mm So, which I know it sounds silly, but I really think the NHS should take into account, like with you, my husband's very tall. Yeah. I'm so said at the top of the episode on the tall one.

Yeah, you are the short one. Um. And every time I've had a baby, I always go, oh, they're very long. And I always go, I wonder why I always go like our little girl, she's tall now, Lily, we don't know with Lly yet, but she's also long for her age. And it's not like, I'm not exactly like out. I'm, I'm a normal height.

Like I'm six foot. It's not like I'm like seven foot eight, but I always, but I would, they they don't take into account genetics. Yeah. Particularly. And I always wanna go. Yes. If their father's tall, there is a chance they could be tall. And I do have tall genetics in my family. Other men, not like my family.

We're all short. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know in some cases, one poor woman, they were told, oh, well the baby's quite short, like quite little. And her and her husband were really pite and they wanted to be like, no offense, she's not gonna have a huge baby, is she? This is the problem. Um, well I suppose it swings and roundabouts, isn't it?

Yeah. Positives and negatives. But this is one of the challenges of basing everything on that median average score. Of course there will be some people that aren't the exact average. Yeah. And that's absolutely fine. That doesn't mean there's a problem. Yes. Yeah. Just means for you personally, you are not in that average range.

You're not in the average average range. Yeah. And that's not an issue. Yeah, exactly. I was anxious about the whole pregnancy. Yeah, I can attest to that. You had to live with it. Yeah. I was anxious down in protein, like it was going out of style. Yeah. Shoveling down protein yogurts. Probably has no effect whatsoever, but you know.

Yeah, well it must've done. She was big baby. Anyway, what happens next? The birth. Okay. Yeah. You go through that. Yeah. So they're approaching the end of pregnancy. So at this point, they weren't only worried about me, I'll be honest, other than, you know, they thought my, they, they switched, uh, yeah. Focus onto the diabetes.

Um, I would say normally. And this doesn't mean you can't fight with them, but typically I was told with our trust, they do not like you really to go much over 39, 40 weeks. Mm. So as you are overdue, they will induce you and you can, you can say you don't wanna do that. Right. That's perfectly fine because I would say I was induced with my first pregnancy and it ended up being e c-section and I don't really rate inductions.

Yeah. I've heard a lot of stories where they haven't gone well. Well, if you look at stats and stuff like the. Rate of them being successful. Yeah. Very, very low. Not to scare people, not, not a great heart. Well, it's not, it's not a, you know. Oh no, it's not a thing. It's just saying that as a method of actually inducing your baby to come Yeah.

Out. It doesn't really, doesn't seem have much of a success rate. Well, I think because you're fighting against nature, really. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Your baby is ready to come out. It's not, yeah. Um. I think sometimes they work purely because you probably were gonna give birth soon anyway. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I just be aware that they probably will say that, and you are within your rights to fight against that and say you want to wait longer, but just be prepared or presumably skip over that part and say, go straight for a, so we, we went something else straight for a, um, elective C-section.

Yeah. I can't rate it highly enough. I know people like natural births. I'd had enough of natural births after my first one when I was induced and had a horrific time. Very relaxing, and it was helpful in some ways, us playing the system a bit. Yeah, we did that. We had these two things that meant. High.

You're super high. Yeah. Because I, and too high risk things that makes you super high risk. Because in my head I was like, both of these things to me feel like quite low risk. Mm-hmm. Like they are things that are added on top. Yeah. Complications added on top. But they explain in pregnancy, I was like, there must be women that have way more Oh.

Worrying things going on in pregnancy. But I think the problem is, I, I was told there's no, there's low risk or high risk in pregnancy. There's no medium risk. Ah, yes. I remember. So you just get shocked in one of the categories. Yeah. So you're either normal or, or high risk. If there's anything wrong, they go, ah, you're high risk.

Yeah. I see. Which is good 'cause you get taken seriously. Yeah. But it is a big story. I feel like there should maybe be like some sort of tear system. Yeah. It feels a little bit rudimentary. It does, yeah. Um, but yes. So like with your birthing options, I've known some people have had water birth, they've been fine.

Yeah. Like try not to let it limit you. Mm-hmm. Basically, unless they're really worried about growth or something. Mm-hmm. If your baby's measuring normal, you should be able to a normal birth. So as you ramp up towards the end of pregnancy Yeah. They'll be keeping a closer eye. You, they will, you have some more scans at that point.

You've got more scans. Yeah. And then they're particularly looking like if growth is slowing down. Yeah. Because at the start of pregnancy you maybe have one extra scan, but they're not that worried if that scan's fine. Because typically growth drops off towards the end. Yeah. If it's a placenta problem. So near the end you have more scans just to check.

And they particularly focus on measuring that blood flow in the place center. Oh, I, I totally forgot about that. So this happened about, tell us about that. This happened about three times in our scans. Yeah. Yeah. Is this something that doesn't normally happen in, uh, normal scan? No, they don't normally check in normal scan, so they will check the blood flow and it's something called notches.

I don't really understand it. Yeah, I think it's a high PI number. Bad, I think, and I think low pi number cut. Sure. All I know is we were sat in the, you know, the scan rooms, the guy, and they literally listen Yeah, yeah. To the noise. He's going We'll, we'll. We, we, we, yeah. And I'm sat there going like, is this good?

I wonder if this good. Yeah. Maybe it's bad. I, no, I know. And you all look at their face, like, do they look happy? Yeah. Do they look And they normally look just very serious. Yeah. And you're like, is that a good noise or a bad noise? Um, so they check, see if center's working fine. In our case, the blue flow is always fine.

Um, but that's normally the earliest indication if they can. Have like see some resistance. Yeah. Then that means you could have slow growth. So in those cases say, you know, uh, the blood flow's not looking as healthy as it should be, maybe growth is beginning to slow down. Yeah. They're likely to push for you to give birth earlier.

Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. That's normally the cause of action. Mm. So again, like that in itself is maybe slightly more risky, but people give birth early norm, you know, all the time anyway. Yeah. I have small babies. So, and an extreme measure, they would give you steroids just so the baby, um, can breathe and stuff when it's gone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. So even in the worst case scenario. Yeah. Like what you're talking about is having a slightly early birth and maybe a slightly small baby. Yes, exactly. Um, all of which that, you know. The medicine and the science are there to support that there's, that's not gonna cause a big problem. No.

I, I always try and make people feel better in the group, in that I was born 30 what, two years ago now? Yeah. How are nearly Did nearly, you've just had your birthday? My 32. You're 32 now? I'm 32. Yeah. Um, I was gonna say I'm nearly, it's weird, but I'm not at all. That's a lie. No, no. Um, literally furthest away from that.

You could be at any point in the year having just had your birthday. How confused I am. Um, so 32 years ago I was born and I was two pounds, two ounces. Yeah. Yeah. And I survived and I was fine. Yeah. So just. Think about that and the science that has improved so much since then. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like artery something.

I don't know. It's, it's a number I don't understand because we never had a problem with it. So I never looked into it. I was just always told it was fine. I think it's a good thing. At the top of the episode, I also said, we are not experts or you know, like we are doing medical information in this show.

And we're like, ah, I think it's this, uh, I think it's this thing they call it. Don't take our word for it. Exactly. Well, this is the problem. Do your own research. If I, if I didn't experience the problem, I didn't look into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they would just tell me it was fine and I was like, great, we can only share our story.

Yeah. Yeah. And if you are not having the doppler done on your placenta. Make them do it. So there's some trusts where they've forgotten to do it for people. Oh dear. Once again, just chase up things. Yeah. People are very bad sometimes. I think we've had bad experiences with the NHS. Yeah. Which we have, but we have, but not that bad.

You know, some other people. Yeah, there's a lot of horror stories. I'd say with the low Pape stuff, they were really good. Really pretty good. Yeah. Pretty. Yeah. Yeah. There was various people, I can't remember what was it, 18 weeks we had a. Um, scan. Don't ask me that ballpark. Um, 16 to 18 weeks they gave us another scan and at that point they should be doing a doppler.

Yeah. So if they don't do that and you know you have lopa, can you go, A mate gonna be doing a Doppler? You say You come dopple me right now. Yeah. It's been numerous times in our group. People have gone, well, they never did that. And I'm like, well, it's while the running be doing to check stuff. So anything, anything during like the birth process.

I mean, I remember we would constantly, you know, they'd always ask about, they'd never read your notes. They'd never know what was going on. No. So they'd always be asking you about stuff and we'd always go, oh, well we have low pay. And then they'd look at you and go, huh? And then you have to explain it.

Yeah. And then they'd be like, oh, well I don't think that affects anything that we are doing here. And I'm like, okay. Sure. Like, just maybe take a little book with you and just write an inspiration what it is. But I, it, it is true though, like during the whole birth process, there wasn't really anything where lo peppe came into play.

Really? Was there No, no, not really. You know, it, it bumped us up the list so that we could get our C-section booked in. Yeah. So we were a priority because we had low peppe and gestational diabetes. Yeah. But other than that, after that point, it's just a normal birth process. Yeah. Well, as much as any normal birth is normal.

Well, yeah. And when they do a birth plan, that's a joke because you know, nothing ever goes to plan, but you can hope for the best. I'm trying to think. We've missed anything about lopa. Do you wanna look through your notes? Oh, whoa. Whoa. Don't make yourself sick. Calm down. I know your teeths hurt. Oh wow. A lot of people are giving numbers.

And kind of sent for more tests but not told why or how it's bad or what, like, so loads of people in the group go, well, what's so one poor lady? 'cause I'd said, put my numbers in the group. And I was like, oh, my HGG was 2.5. And she was like, mine's only one. And I was like, that's the right number. That's really good.

But she hadn't been told that, oh, they'd just been given numbers. Yeah. And she was thinking, oh, hers looks like it's 2.5, mine must be low. And I was like, no, no. No one is the ideal. Yeah, one's great. So remember, if you, you're giving your numbers in MO M1 is ideal. I mean, I don't think they actually give you an exact, but what are the boundaries within which they say that's a fine thing?

So like, uh, one, what's the threshold you need to cross in either direction before they go, ah, that's a problem. Ah, honestly, I don't really know. We don't know. Um, because I know with low pap eight above 0.3, they think is fine. Which I would say quite a big drop from one to 0.3. So anywhere between 0.3 and one.

Yeah. So like 0.3 low, but if you're at 0.4, you're fine with HCG. I don't think they worry if it's like 1.5. Um, so sorry, I'm more, I'm lost again. I've, I've not been paying attention to my exam hormone level. What's the, the, I get the other one's the. A TG hormone level. Yeah, but we've been talking about low pape.

So the what, this hormone level? Yes. How does that play into the, honestly, it doesn't really, oh, they worry about it. It's just another indicator. It can be a sign of downs, as we were told by a specialist. Everybody's hormone level is different. Yeah. You might happen to have, especially if you have girls, which I have.

It is generally a high number. It can mean nothing. Right. So really don't worry about the hormone level. They just do it in conjunction with low pape, because if you have low pape and high HEG, it can be a sound line syndrome. Yeah, yeah. Um, but so that's purely why they do it, I think. Or it could be a sign of another CHONe disorder, but, but generally they don't really worry about that.

Yeah. I think that's it. I think I've done all my notes. Very good. Well, thank you for the class, Ms. Cripping, the class. Yeah. And we wouldn't recommend following Emma's example and shoveling down protein yogurts, I mean. Did I have a big baby? Yes. Would I say it's a scientific thing? No, but I Maybe it helped.

You're really worried and you think it'll give you some relief. Yeah. Didn't hurt. Had a good baby.

So we're coming to the end of the episode and we have our little segment where we like to share stories from listeners, things that have been sent in. We've been very poor at keeping up with this segment we have and actually gathering stories from people. So apologies for that. Do send stuff in even when we forget to ask and request and get in touch.

Yeah. But you know, um. Send us stuff on social media or you know, all the links are down below or website and all that stuff. If you've got something you'd like to share related to what we've said or not related to what we've said, a parenting achievement fail story or just anything related to the topic.

Got any stories? Well, I've just been sent, um, my sister in Plymouth. Anybody doesn't know new? I've got a ton of sisters. Right? Not a literal ton. I mean they are numerically, there's only five of them. That's a lot. Um. Her youngest boy agent has gone to school and she said, school are gonna have a fun day with him today because he's professing to everybody that he's blind.

Oh, he cannot see. Oh. Literally closing his eyes, walking around. Oh. Um, and she was like, well, school's kind of a nice time with him today because he is been like this. Since this morning, and he's really committed to the role. Like he's gone to school, closing his eyes, go walking in. The teacher's met him and Laura's like, yes, he, he says he's blind today.

And the teacher's just been like, okay. So Laura's like, hopefully at some point he, um. It snaps out of this game, but we'll see. She was like, she was worried the school would go. He doesn't have a problem with his eyes, but no, he's not that good an actor, so she thinks he'll be fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, last time we were chatting about Bluey and, uh, one of the comments on YouTube were telling us about their favorite, uh, episodes that they like.

Saying about how onesies hit them right in the feelings with Brandy. Rain is great too and love the music in it. Um, love Bandit and Chili as parents think they're really great, but also imperfect. Bingo is my favorite. Uh, she's kind of shy and more sensitive, but has a big imagination. Um, so yeah, love to hear what your thoughts are on stuff that we're talking about in the episodes.

Um, you know, we were saying how good Blue is. Yeah. Yeah. This morning. Lily. Lily was watching it. Yeah. Lily was like, bluey is like me. She doesn't like going to bed. And I was like, but she does, doesn't she? She has a story and then she goes to bed. She's like, but she doesn't want to. It's, yeah. Challenging. On the flip side, uh, recently Lily has been coming up with the most imaginative Oh, yeah.

Songs and stories and just things she comes out with. Yeah. Just random little things and you're like, what? What is going on in this game? Yeah. And she tells you about it and it's like just so creative. Very creative. I do put a lot of that down to her picking up some of the influence of bluey and the way that they imagine things.

That is true. Um, sometimes though it's really hard to understand the concept of the game. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Really difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Like last night she was telling me her bed was the washing machine and we had to click the buttons on the side of the bed, and she was washing my book to make sure it was clean, and I had to stand in the corner with Elsa and Anna.

Right. Oh, she always calls her Anna because you, that's why they say her name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was American, so we had to stand in a corner. Me invisible else or invisible Anna. Um, in a line like, we're at school and she's like, you've got to wait till your book is washed. It is just, it brings you so much joy at the moment.

I mean, it is crazy, but she just comes out with such strange things. Oh, and just such wild imagination. Also just the phrases. Yeah. Like her phrase, my nose is running out, means her nose is running. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, she calls a bowl a boil. Yeah. Dunno what ax accent that is. She's like, I need a boil.

Mm-hmm. A preview then, uh, for going forward, we are gonna do an episode all about, uh, speech Yes. And talking. I really wanna do an episode where we talk through the whole overview of like going from first words right through to where we are now in the process of Yep. Lily being able to, you know. Good conversations, full sentences and, but also how we develop language tips and games and things we've done to help with development of language.

So, um, particularly you as a linguist, I thought, I thought it could be a really interesting topic. True, yeah. So, uh, you can look forward to that on a future episode. This has been the podcast. It has. I'm proud to be, been quite a serious one this week. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I've just been trying to help people out.

Yeah. It's very, very academic learning. Yes. Uh, you know, informational. Yeah. You know, type thing. Um, it makes a nice change from our normal little rambling conversations where we just laugh about stuff. Yeah. Still feel like there's a bit of rambling going on there. Well, you know what we're like. Well, we're both trying to speak, look, and we're trying to end the podcast right now and we are rambling as we speak, you know?

Anyway, goodbye. This is the end. You've reached the end. Sleep well. God bless. I just to apologize, I don't think. No, it's the end. It's the end. This is it. We finished. Goodbye. Be gone. Goodbye. Goodbye. Thanks for listening. Don't wake the baby.

I'm not hon around. I'm not fault. Hong Kong bridal Rider. Rider crash. Beep beep. Hong Kong bridle. Right, right. Crash beep beep. Hong Kong. I'm a little handcuffed tin. Nobody knows what shape I'm in. I've got four wheels and I'm running for, I'm not hon around. I'm not Ford Hong Kong. Ride, ride. Ride a crash beep.