BONUS | Christmas Compilation 2025 - Parenting with toddlers over the festive season

Our Christmas Special! What are the challenges at Christmas with a baby or toddler? This is the one where Emma and Elliot discuss everything from nativity songs, presents, Elf on the Shelf, Father Christmas, traditions, Church and more. Updates on life as we approach Christmas with a 1 year old and a 4 year old, and a look back at some extracts from our 2023 and 2024 Christmas episodes: firstly with special guest Viki, and secondly chatting about faith, fairytales, and the Christmas story.

What are the biggest challenges with toddlers at Christmas?

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Unwind on sleepless nights to a wholesome mix of parenting, humour, and crafting. We’re not here to provide answers but to share our experiences, explore how parenting has changed, and build an online community of parents for mutual support.

A fun, honest and unscripted conversation between Emma and Elliot on non-judgemental parenting and millennial-based topics, as we relax on an evening doing a craft or creative activity.

We are a project in partnership with The Kairos Movement and supported by The Methodist Church, of which The Kairos Movement is a part.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:20 Quiz
• 5:52 2025 Christmas Conversation
• 21:15 2023 extracts
• 41:05 2024 extracts
• 58:30 Ending

Transcript

 Ho, ho, ho. Welcome to the imaginary Ice Cave of the Internet. You can tell it's the Christmas special because illness is going around and we, it is have croy voices and a sniff. Yeah, and the baby's been ill. It's been fantastic. Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way. We're doing a podcast episode. I hope you'll be good today.

Hey, get ready for a jumbly mess. Because if people don't know, Lola was in hospital two weeks ago for about five days. Um, and since then everything has been chaos because we're trying to get ready for Christmas trying to fit working and the podcast episode. So this will be a lot less slick than usual.

'cause Elliot is normally the brains behind everything and he hasn't pray anything. Yeah, I'm not prepared and I never pray anything anyway. Hence why I'm happy to take over starting the episode. 'cause I'm always just doing this waking up as I go along. I'm not even in the right head space for this, but this is the only chance we've got at any point to record anything.

Yeah. So this will have to do. Yeah. So we need to get it done now. Yeah. So if you're wondering why I'm very low energy, that is why it sounds like eo. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've been, just, just pretend it's a friendly year. I feel very like EO at the moment that the like, oh dear Christmas is coming. Yes. Right.

I'll try and drag Ayo out of a shell. No, we've not done any of the usual introduction, but that's fine. I, I, if this is the first episode you've ever listened to, it's probably not ideal. Go and listen to that. Go back, even just back one. Yeah. And we'll introduce ourselves. We're just assuming at this point, you know who we are, what we do, what this is.

Yeah. Um, yeah. You know the drill. Yeah. That's it.

We should probably do something fun to kick us off with. Hmm. I thought. We could do some sort of little quiz Ooh. Based on a bit self-indulgent, but based on looking at some of our stacks of our old Christmas episodes. Oh, okay. Um, I won't know any of this 'cause as people can tell, I'm not the brains behind the podcast.

What would be more fun to guess? Some numbers or to guess Some like locations and countries. Oh, locations and countries. Okay. Let's have a look then. More exciting. Um, I dunno if that's exciting for other people or just me. So last year's one we have six countries. Ooh. They only have one. Listen, what? Six?

It's still impressive. I thought we'd have like three countries. There's like obviously four countries like here, the UK and the United States. Oh yes. Yeah. And then for some reason Germany and Sweden have some listeners as well. Do you wanna have a guest who are six, six countries are that have listened to the apps episode Germany.

No, no. The six ones that have one. Listen. Oh. Oh. Um, oh, goodness. I don't know. Are they European? Oh, you know, I'm not good at it's gonna test graphy now You're not geography, especially at the moment. Um, my head's all over the place. Um, okay. Um, that's fine. Uh, some of them are European. Okay. So some of em, no, most of them are not Korea.

No. Oh, wrong. You have failed the course. So I'm going outta Europe now. Um, is one somewhere in Africa? They're all very, they're not, they're not very obscure actually. Oh, so they are European? No, there's a few of them are. Okay. Uh, Finland, uh, no, but close Sweden. Well, that has two listens, so that's not part of my, my six that have one listing Norway.

Did you say that? Norway. Norway has one. Listen, how many do I have left now? Oh, you have five left. Oh God. There's a lot of countries to choose from. France. France, yes. France. Correct because I thought Beck will listen. Be France. Go one. Listen, this quiz could go on. This could be like an hour long episode.

Yeah. November going, I'm guessing countries. Spain? Uh, nope. Portugal? Uh, nope. Clearly we're not liked in the Mediterranean,

is it? Are they, uh, Holland and Ne Netherlands? No, but where, uh, Denmark. Where's that? That's not close, but yet, okay, so it's all northern Europe, basically Denmark. Um, those are, we, I think we've now covered all the, oh, we've covered Europe, public Europe ones, um, China. No, but Vietnam. No. Japan? No, the way you said Mm.

Implied it was somewhere close. I mean, it is distinct from China, but like there's somewhere in that Tibet. No, it's quite small, but it's a small country. Yeah. New Zealand. Uh, no. But you've moved away from where you were close to before and now you're closer to one of the other answers. Australia, yes, we have Wonderin in Australia.

But that, that wasn't the small country. No, that wasn't, no, Australia's huge. A little country that you, you think is kind of like China, Hong Kong. Oh, you're right. Yeah. It's separate country. Yeah. Yeah. Hong Kong. You're right. Should have thought of that. Um, the one that you've missed is Brazil. Oh. If you'd like to know.

There you go. Those are the countries that have listened to our Christmas episode. That's very exciting. I think that bit took far too long. 'cause I'm terrible at guessing, but that's exciting.

Right. And what are we talking about then? Christmas stuff. You have some topics you wanna bring up? Yeah. Well it's very exciting 'cause it's going to be Lily's first sensitivity now that she starts school. Oh yeah. Um, and I actually was thought, 'cause you know, people now always go, oh, na activities are never very religious, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Because I hear people moaning about, I say people online, people moaning about that lot. I assumed it would not be religious at all. And then Lily came home and she was singing like, oh, we've been singing this song about. And I was like, the kings. And she was like, yes, but the nativity, the three kings. And I was going, oh, it's, it's religious.

And then I immediately jumped into, oh, it's so like we three kings. And she was going, no, it's not, it's not the song. I was like, oh, right. And then she tried singing to me and I had no clue what this song was, but luckily my sister Laura, um, because our schools, even though she lives all the way in Plymouth, the curriculum seems to be the same.

So I messaged her like. Did you do some strange nativity songs with your boys? Um, and do you have the tunes anywhere? 'cause we haven't made to sent any tunes. And she immediately knew what I was talking about and sent me the tunes to listen to, which was really useful actually. So now we've been singing these around the house, but it's like, there's a really fun one that's like, hurry, hurry, get the gold.

We must not delay. Hurry, hurry. Get the goal. Like there's no time to waste. We must be on our way. And they have like actions where they tap their hand like they're tapping, like a watch and running along. Li Lily, that's Lily's favorite is Hurry, hurry, get the goals. Why? I know that one. Oh, and the other one's very funny.

We are, this is about three kings from the east and we're very grand. But me and Lily had a conversation ages ago about how the three kings are often shown to be white. And they weren't white. They would've been brown. That's not accurate. I didn't know you'd had this conversation with it. 'cause we were looking at the nativity scene.

Yeah. And Lily was saying, oh, they look like us. And I said, they do, but they wouldn't really like, it's not very accurate. Yeah, yeah. They'd look more like, um, uncle are you? And she was going, oh, okay. So she thought phrases. It was saying, we are from the east and we're very brown. No. And I was going, oh no, it's saying we're very grand.

Oh, you, but they were brown. I was like, oh yes they were. Yeah, that's completely correct. But that's not what they're singing. I thought how embarrassing at school she's been going at and we're very brown. Um, so we're very excited. So we're gonna go see her. Well, Elliot's working. We've got quite a morning to try and fit.

Well, the nativities on like first thing on a Wednesday morning. Yeah. At 10 o'clock. At 10. So like what? Parents are gonna be free to go anywhere. I know, but we've gotta go gone because. People who are regulars know Lola was ill, couldn't have her. Um, measles, mumps, whatever, jab. Oh yes. Her 1-year-old. Her 1-year-old vaccines.

We should just, oh, you mentioned it earlier, but we've not really provided any context. True. Um, just very, very briefly that she had RSV and that's why she was in hospital for five days. I like breathing tubes and stuff, but she's all better now. Yeah. Um, but that did coincide. Yeah. I mean, meant she missed her jabs.

Yeah. So now she's having them obviously. 'cause that's the way it works the day of the nativity that morning. And it's the same time that I have to drop Lily off at school. So Elliot is taking Lola, the doctors and not our closest doctors 'cause they couldn't fit her in. Mm-hmm. So the doctors are his father away.

Elliot's taking her for her jabs. Then he will meet me at the church to drop off Lola so I can go in and watch Lily naivity. Yeah. It's just like a morning of chaos. And it's new for us 'cause we haven't had to do nativities or anything in like nursery. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's quite exciting just to see how things are done.

Yeah. Yeah. Basically nothing's changed a lot really since we were young. Mm-hmm. No, turns out very similar. We Yeah. Still do kind of quite cheesy nativity plays that are quite dated. Yeah. Well I did find it putting both Laura's children of sag, these songs, the oldest one is now 11, so clearly it's been like in the curriculum for quite a long time.

I suppose some people would call it nostalgic that we still do the same things over and over again. But yeah, I think it's quite cute. Um, and I'll, I'll enjoy seeing, so, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is what's distinct this year from previous years is that we have two kids. Yes. Which is quite different. Well, we did last year, but I mean, Lola was very, Lola mean. Lola was like one month old, so, you know. Yes. You had no idea. But even though we say like Lola will be happy with anything, like in some ways we could do it very similarly to how we treated Lily at that age where Yes.

She doesn't really need any presents. We, I'm trying to discourage friends and family from buying her loads of presents. Yeah. 'cause we have loads of toys. I just keep asking for clothes. Yeah. Because I'm not, but the tricky bit is of course, that Lily wants everything to be fair and equal. She does. Yeah. So she wants Lola to have presents.

Yeah. Because you know, they're sisters and they should have the same Yeah. And yeah, Lily, they're very much a egalitarian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She keeps asking Daddy what he is got for me, and I'm like, I don't think. That is organized out yet. No, I have got stuff for you. I mean, trouble is, Lily won't be impressed with what I've got for you.

No, it's true. Um, she wasn't impressed with my birthday. I loved my birthday things, but because it isn't stuff Lily likes, Lily was like, why have you got her that? Yeah. I think we normally update people on what we've got. Our kids Yes. For Christmas. It's true because that's quite just quite interesting, isn't it?

It's, yeah. And you know, for us looking back at these episodes, it's quite interesting to see the progress because Yeah, it's true. We'll definitely forget as well over years. Yeah. Just what ages she got different things. Um, so should we do Lily first? Sure. Yeah. Oh, well, uh, if we bought how, like I feel like we've ended up a system where we've ended up buying her like presents.

Each We have. Yes. I don't quite know how we've ended up with this. I think. She asked us kind of almost separately for things. She's like Congress I think, where she's like approached us separately and been like, well, you can buy me this for Christmas and you can buy me this, this for Christmas, you can buys.

And it's really hard to say no because she's chosen things like for me, I'm, I've bought her some Lego because that's the thing we do together as like a bonding thing. We love playing Lego and for me, she's asked for a moland do, which is true. We play dolls. Yeah. So I think she's got like, so she's like tugging on our things, being like, well this is what we do together.

It's our special thing we do. So you could get me in that thing for Chris. So like, yeah. Yeah. So from, well she's got a moland do like, kind of like a Barbie doll, but it's Moland. Mm-hmm. Um, which turns out was incredibly hard to get. Mulan clearly isn't a popular doll. Well, mine was quite hard as well. I've got a, uh, I've got some Lego, but I specifically rather than a set.

Mm-hmm. Um, which can be quite expensive and equally often doesn't have the right. You know, she's into Disney and the princesses. So we were looking for Disney princesses. Yes. And trying to collect the mini dolls that she doesn't already have. Um. So you could like, there, there are some sets that have like multiple Yeah.

Princess figures in, but like, they're like hundreds of pounds. Yeah, you could, and then we don't get the right word. So I was trying to track down like enough fig, so I've bought like separately the little dots, so they, that was equally quite hard to come by. Yeah. And what do you mean separately? He is bought like almost different little parts to make the dolls.

Oh yeah. Because also not like full dolls. It's not that easy. I've bought it mostly secondhand online, uh, but collected like the different legs and the arms and the heads and the hair pieces and the accessories and bought them all separately and then put them all together to make the dolls to meet like various princesses.

So yeah. Anyway. And then for Lola. We've gone very mainstream. Um, was very easy to get. She wanted, well, she wanted, she's got Bean bear. Um, if people don't know Bean Bear is from Miss Rachel. Yes. I doubt many people will know. Like even I was like, what is this? Yeah. So, uh, 'cause Lola's favorite episode is um, the one about potty time.

Yeah. Which is good. 'cause we're doing potty training, kind of relevant. And there's a little bear who they train to go on the potty. A puppet. A puppet, yes. Yeah. And they've made it. Yes. It's not a real bear. It's not an animated bear. It is a puppet. Yes. I have bought the toy version of that. Yes. So the official Miss Rachel merchandise Yes.

Bean bear plushy thing. And we, we love Miss Rachel, let it be heard. But it, it was getting low in the stock already when I Yeah, yeah. And that was, so does it, does it come from America? Like does, uh, you just buy it and it arrives? I just buy and it arrives. Yeah. This year, I think it's similar to last year.

Yes. We're doing Christmas Day by ourselves. Yeah. As our family unit. And then either side we visiting Yeah. Family, grandparents. And it's usually with the big, we all say Womble Christmas party. My family's called the Womble. So not, not like, not really just what they call themselves. So that's our big thing is we hire a village hall as people probably know and have a big, big thing.

So that's happening again. But the SE is a bit different. Because afterwards we've kind of, um, rented out a house just for me and my sisters and our children to kind of have fun and enjoy just some more time together rather than previous years where we just go to the party and you've seen them for like maybe four hours and then everybody goes home and you're like, oh, right.

That, that's it. Yeah. Um, and the the similar problem, the party now being at a church hall, you've got the same problem where no house is big enough to host everyone, so we have to go and rent somewhere out. Yeah. Out to stay so we can all be together for an extended period. So that's nice this year. We'll see if that becomes a tradition or not.

Yeah. It could be, couldn't it? I think it's quite a nice idea. Yeah. And then the cousins get to see each other for. Prolonged period of time. Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, so yeah, I'll be fascinated to know with other people whether you, like, has your Christmas traditions changed since having children? Like have you managed to establish new traditions?

Oh, you in the same pattern as previously? Yeah. How does kids affect that? Do you just, like, do they just tag along with what you've always done? Or have you found like new ways of, we just live far away from everybody, so it's not an option. Yeah. Whatever. We've got got travel, haven't we? And then it's about do we do overnights?

Yeah. How long do we stay? How's that gonna work with the kids? Yeah. Well the kids cope like all sorts of things. And that it just, it's just Christmas is a logistical nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it can be stressful and. There's lots of fun and stuff, particularly like the kids that will have loads of fun. Oh yeah.

But like for us as parents, I dunno, maybe everyone else is having a great time, but I'm always a bit stressed by all. Mm. Uh, particularly at the end of this year, that's been very challenging and difficult. It's like, oh, Christmas. Yeah. Now we've got like more logistics to work out. I think also it's like, especially 'cause of Lola's illness recently, I'm a lot more kind of like, oh, there'll be everybody there with bugs.

And I'll be like, don't touch her. Don't breathe on her. Which, you know. I know she goes to nursery, she will get more illnesses, but it's just trying to mitigate that risk constantly. Yeah. In the minute, and as per our tradition of, we haven't bothered with a Christmas letter, but I do create a Christmas like video.

Yeah. I just filmed everything and then I'm putting it all into like a, a, a little video. I mean, it's turned into like a documentary, uh, because it's like so long because I hadn't anticipated like how much stuff goes on in a year and how much we would film. Yeah. And also this year has not been the best for us.

So I'm slightly worried as a Christmas, like here's our lovely Christmas video of the family, of what we've been doing this year. And it's just like, it begins in hospital. It ends in hospital. The middle is just like us going. It's been really tough. Yeah. Like it's not, there's lovely video of the kids having fun, but I feel like it's not the most fun.

It's kind of a Christmas tradition. We kind of have now. We didn't do it last year, but going to Disneyland. Oh, yeah. Which Lily is fully on board with now. Well, it's quick space. We don't, um, pay for this. My work do. Um Yes. Your work Christmas party, because you work for a company that's based in Paris.

Paris, yeah. They always have, their party is in Paris and it is at Disneyland. So they normally hire out a restaurant or part of one of the Disneyland restaurants and, um, everybody goes and has a nice little time. Yep. If you're sat listening thinking what, what a life to lead that your work pay for you to go to Disneyland for your work.

I'm, there's, that's what we're all thinking. Yeah. We're all sat here going, wow. What, what is this? Apparently though I was talking to my boss and it's become quite popular, like in, in a lot of perian companies to do it. Um, yeah. We think because of millennials and big Disney fans, it's kind of become a bit of a thing.

I know where France take over the whole of Disneyland for their Christmas party. Wow. So, yeah, I think, I think it's not as. I'm not saying it's regular, but it's not as uncommon for practices. Yeah, yeah. Very wealthy company. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's a different ball game from Elliot works, obviously for a charity.

Yeah. So you're just not gonna have the same perks in the job. Yeah. It's a good perk to have. It is. And normally, like we've always intended to all go as a family. Yeah. But, um, we've never managed it yet. No. This year, obviously Lola had just come back from hospital, so we didn't think it was best for her to No.

To let immediately get on a plane and go. Yeah. So, so I stayed here with her. Yeah. Hopefully next year, the year before that I was pregnant, so we didn't go. Yeah. The year before that I took Lily, 'cause Elliot had like a, a work thing. Well I think my Christmas party was the same day. Oh, that was it. It was the same day.

Yes. So, so I took Lily obviously to Disneyland. So she wanna go to your Christmas party. Then we were messaging, comparing what our work Christmas parties were like. I feel like I sent a picture from the restaurant. I said, then you were like to that little, little selfie like, hey, sorry I'm sniffing 'cause I still have Lola's bug.

It has not left me. Yeah. Me and Lola have picked up a new bug. Yeah. Just so I'm just waiting. Yeah. So. Merry Christmas. I'm sorry. It's a rather depressing guy. Well, I think most of our listeners who in our little group have all been in hospital with their little ones too. I think it's just a bad year for bugs.

Yeah. Like especially 'cause Lily started school and L side nursery. We're just, yeah, it's like double barrel, which we're riding a wave of illness and bugs. Yeah. Uh. Yeah. But it's good now because my only thing is that I want Lola to breathe since her hospital stint. So my, before I'd be like, oh no, it's terrible.

And now I'm like, I don't care if she throws up her diarrhea as long as she's breathing and I'm pretty happy with the state of her illness. So yeah, that, I mean, that, that's, that's a silver lining. Silver. We just lower our expectations. Just can she breathe by herself? She's, she's breathing great. Great.

That's what life's come to. Yeah. But in some ways that makes me a happier person because I have lower a lower bar for being like, no, that's fine. I can deal with anything else. Yeah. Yeah.

Here's some extracts from our 2023 Christmas conversation. Enjoy. And with me today is Vicki. Hi. She's our friend from church and our children are one week apart in age, which really bonds us mainly. It is very useful having someone going through the same stuff at the same time. We're off to my parents for the big Womble party that's in the village hall.

I can imagine that big is big with your family. Yeah. How many people we having? If everyone came it would be 30. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, so it's gonna, I don't think everybody will come, but I, it's gonna be big. So yeah, looking forward to it, but also kind of, you know, it's a lot of people to see and it'll be quite intimidating for Lily, so.

Yes. It's, it's gonna be, it's a lot for us. And then you think, gosh, if I was two years old, this would like be really too much. Yeah. Well my promise is she gets very excited, but then she's also like, I'm very excited, but I'm also gonna crash at some point and everything's gonna be wrong with the world.

Yep. So it's knowing when that's gonna be, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. It's things like that that I never understood like three years ago. Yeah. I was clueless. Oh, you can parent anything when you're not a parent, can't you? It's just, it's fine. Like it won't, it won't be fine. Like I'll horrendous day of me trying to get her to do things and she's not gonna do them and just, so I hate that same thing, but it's prolonged over Christmas, not just.

Yeah, it's gonna be tough. It'll also be lovely and magical, but there will be really tough bits where you're thinking, oh gosh, why did I do this? So, does Macy have cousins? Like she does. So they're a little bit older than her. Um, five and eight. So yeah. But it's lovely now, especially five and two and a half.

That's a really nice gap. Mm. Um, so watching those two together nowadays is really good. Whereas when she was born at two and a half and newborn, it was a bit more, oh, don't sit on the baby. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that in a few months time with nearly three and newborn. But hey, because I'm quite worried, don't wanna worried when we have our next one, Lily loves babies and that she will just take the chart like and be, because you already told me of now when we're playing babies, it's a different kind of challenge.

It's, yeah. Oh wow. Try to be helpful. Oh, not sure how it'll go. I think 'cause they'll get quite separate. I think hopefully we'll get away with it and they won't be too, they're probably the case where the boys aren't interested in what she's got, but she'll be after what they've got. Yeah. I think that's always the younger child's thing, is that like that thing looks really cool.

Yeah. And kind of dangerous. Like I wouldn't be allowed it. It's got more buttons than I'm allowed to play with, et cetera. Yes, definitely. One of our concerns on Christmas Day is just how much chocolate is there available, and particularly in the evening we go for a nice Christmas buffet and even last year she was good at wandering through and, oh, that's it, Macy, I'll have one of those.

I'm like, oh gosh, this year she can reach so much further back on the table. Oh yeah. She'll just be anything. Absolutely. Do you have any other traditions? Not especially, um, you sound very like those, we haven't started any traditions yet either. No, we do. Well, we'll do the usual Christmas Eve stuff, the leaving things out and for Santa and that sort of thing.

And we've done, um, like a farm visit both years, do sea Christmas. Oh, that's nice. And get to make reindeer food and all of that. So that kind of builds the tradition for you in a way, I suppose, which has been, it's been quite nice. But yeah, beyond that, not especially, and then church Christmas day. Yeah. We were saying we don't really have many, but I think least so little.

I I'm often be like, Well's not put point, make one yet. That's it. She's not gonna remember, remember at this point. And I don't dunno what yet she'll be really into as a thing to do. I think it's probably better if they grow naturally, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you'll put a lot of pressure on yourself just trying to repeat the same things.

Yeah. Yeah. Be like, no, we've made a tradition, we've gotta keep to it. How did you find like the first Christmas with the baby Freddy? Try and remember it. Yeah. So they were about six months old, which meant that they were still at that lovely cuddly stage and everyone wants a snuggle and you're thinking that's nice, but you're the seventh person to hold her today.

And actually she really needs a nap and a feed and juggling things. Makes it a little bit tricky is a lot easier now in some ways. 'cause at two you haven't got a hope of hanging onto her if she doesn't want to be held onto. Yeah, this is exactly what we said. We said, now it's a lot easier. She will just say she doesn't want a hug from someone.

Yeah. And I'm like, well that's it. Can't make it. They've got the autonomy now. It's brilliant. Minds just like, Nope. You're like, what? Okay. Whereas like when they're a baby, you have to make the decision for them. That's true. And then it's a bit harder. Whereas now she's, she's very willful. She's like, I'm not doing that.

And you're like, okay cool. I don't have to tell a person you don't wanna hug them. 'cause you tell me so much easier in a lot of ways. Yeah, I get it was, it is difficult because a lot of people, like your parents really wanted to show us off. But it was the thing where I'm like, well she has a nap at this time and we really need to be in a house so we can't really go out.

Yeah. So we had like limited hours and trying to explain that to other people to be like, we can't just go out for the whole day. Even at that point, Lily really was set in her routine and he went off the routine. It was terrible. So we were like, well, we still need to keep the routine. Um, which means we basically have two hours to do something If you want to do something but have a nap and then have another like.

Two or three hours, but not long before we're eating and then bedtime. Yeah, I think it was challenging getting people to understand that a toddler's thing is quite limiting. What do you remember? A toddler, a baby schedule is quite limiting. I think we contact Napped for the first 18 months at least. Yeah, she did stop.

Well, she didn't at nursery, obviously, they really, I dunno what magic, they used to put babies down in their own beds, but I need some of it. Yeah. Um, but yeah, with, with me, she, there was no way she was accepting anything else. But once she started with my parents and Mark's mum, she was pretty good at napping in a push chair by that point.

But that wasn't, that first Christmas, I guess. Wasn't Yeah, because I know some people like just take them out and they're like, we'll go to watch fireworks or something, and they're like, oh, they'll just nap. And I'm like. She wouldn't do that. She wouldn't just nap. She wanted her, like her set things to be able to nap.

So tricky. We probably wear those people because one of the places she napped would be in the swing on me. Exactly. So it's fine. Yeah. So that was, yeah, that was an easy option. Yeah. I was very envious of those people. 'cause I was like, she's like Snapchat. Where's my music? I'm not used to this. It's so difficult.

I nearly cried with gratitude. I think when we got to Mark's mom's house that first Christmas, 'cause she had literally set aside a little room for me with a nice, comfy rocking chair and was like, I thought you might just need a few minutes just with a feeder calmer settler. And you know what, it was absolutely magic.

There were so many people in that house that does sound like happen at that point. But she was, she had a fabulous afternoon from there on in. 'cause she'd just had chance to get the results. Yeah. To compress. Yeah. Yeah. It was really, oh. But yeah, it was what I didn't know I needed before I walked in there and they like, oh, thank goodness.

There'd be a rule now. Like all houses need to have a little room for the tiny baby to hide in just for half an hour. Yeah. But still just for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a, that's a really, really good idea from your mom. It was. Yeah. Well, four kids, she knows what she's doing. Yeah. Do you prefer, um, Christmas with a baby or Christmas with a toddler?

I think with a toddler, yeah. In that like they're really excited. And they actually understand a lot more of it, so it's a lot more exciting. Whereas like with a bit, you do a lot, but love, it's for you. Absolutely. You are excited about Christmas. Yeah. Oh, it's the first Christmas and you get excited, but like they, they have no clue what's going on, so it's not really exciting for them.

It's quite nice this year because like Lily goes Christmas that things and you're like, yeah. Whereas last year she said dish mess, which was cuter. Yeah. There's so many of those I'm gonna miss as she gets bigger, I'm, oh no. Like this is why I'm like Christmas. All the kids are gonna have behave the worst because like, there's so many situations where they either have to be the bigger person and she, they have to wait to like have food.

I have to. So I always think like when we see people, I'm like, she's normally really good. Like outside the situation, she's a really good child and you are gonna see it her worst because she's gonna be fed up of having to be good all day. So. But it is good to know when they go, oh, she's quite well behaved In my head I'm like, you have no idea how well behaved.

She's, you know, was quite well behaved because me, this was really naughty, quite stressful. Expectations are not there. Yeah. Yeah. But then they might just be being polite when they say quite well behaved. Oh, we were at the, uh, Carol service on Sunday evening, and the phrase I got three or four times from people I literally had never met before was, you've got your hands, well, haven't you?

Or it's always bad when they say you've got your hands on. We haven't mentioned that the last few years that Becky stayed with us. Oh, yes. That's, yes. I, people who listen to the podcast, my sister Becky, the French one, um, normally comes and stays with us for Christmas. So this year is like one of the first years.

I mean they are coming to stay with us before Christmas, but they're not actually staying with us on the day. That'll be a change. So that's different like hosting people. Yeah, I quite like hosting. I know like it's, I think 'cause it's my sister and she's very laid back, it's quite easy hosting them. 'cause they have children who are fairly a similar age and they're a family that have very similar rules.

Yeah. So it, it makes it very easy for us to all still follow the same rules and like, it's not that it's not extra work 'cause it is, but I don't think it's the same as hosting people who you feel are judgy or might judge you or like have different expectations or have different rules for their children.

So it actually is normally very relaxed 'cause I know them well enough to be like, this is what they eat and this is what I have to make and, you know. Just compatible and comfortable. That's nice. Even just one friend I find sometimes is, is a lot, I think 'cause you're used to your family units, you're used to just catering for you and doing what you normally do.

Or just catering for the toddler. Yeah. Well they do rule the roost. This is absolutely. Or your future child will come to learn, so you end up being like. Well, the toddler's had a tantrum, so we're just not going to go out to today. We're all going to sit in and come up with some other activity we're gonna want to do.

So scary. True. My family have a lot of space, which is just ideal for small children, isn't it? They've just like to be able to run and not, they don't have a lot of breakable things to run into, which is really good. And they obviously have Macy two days a week for us as well, so yes, they're used to it.

Yeah. And she's really comfortable there, so it just works fortunately. Um, and similarly with Mark's, um, family, there's a bit less space, but she's so well catered for. It's unreal. She's got all the toys and everything else and is just, she's the only grandchild on that side so far. So she is center of the world and pretty much how she likes it.

Yeah. What do you do about presents and things? Do you, do you have like Father Christmas? Give me a gift or how do you negotiate that sort of thing? Oh, that's a really good question. That's a good question because we haven't considered this about when to introduce Father Christmas as a present. Give. Yeah.

This is it. So last year we did, I think Father Christmas brought her doll. Ah. 'cause that was like a reasonably sized, easy to say, this is from Father Christmas. Yeah. And then everything else came from us. I mean, she didn't give a hoot. She was only Yeah. She no dinky. Yeah. Um, but this year I think it'd be similar.

Although this year I have foolishly gone down the road of Elf on the shelf. Oh. Oh no. Yeah, yeah. This is, we literally, the other day, and I said. We are never doing Elf on the shelf 'cause it seems like an awful lot of work and I don't wanna have to do that. The beauty of it this year has been that she's not interested in the slightest in what antics the elf is up to.

She is merely outraged that he got off the shelf. So all I really need to do is just position him around the house. Not quite. So it's been quite helpful. She's just like, how did he go there? Pretty much the EL is hiding. Yeah. I have to find him. If the EL on the shelf was like that, I'd be quite happy to part.

Absolutely. I just feel like people send pictures and they put so much work in, which is fine, but I'm like, you've gotta do that every year. As long as they believe in the ellp. That's a lot of work. This is it. And let's face it, no child is saying, mom, dad, I don't believe in the elf anymore. Yeah. There must be 15 year olds out there pretending they still believe in the elf.

So you're like, what are they gonna do this? Yeah. They're like 10 years in, they're gonna run out of things. That's my problem. 'cause it looks creative and fun. Like I can imagine enjoying doing things silly with the elf. I just don't want the pressure. It's very, the street, it's very, and it's very, my sense of humor, we always say, what does your child want?

And we will get the thing that like we know within the price range of what we're working with, that my child likes this, could you get them this? And normally every is like cool. Which I think some people think is quite odd. I find it odd. I would know if it's a normal thing or not. Yeah. See, you've happily done this to be like, people go, that's really odd.

But I'm like, yeah, we just, we just tell each other what, what our child wants. And we're like, here, there's an Amazon link to it. Like I, we literally even do the Amazon link to be like, this is the exact thing. You just have to click a button, get it, and then we're all done. It's, I mean, it's ideal really, isn't it?

It's just what you need. I think there's a lot to be said for that kind of structure. It works for the child's getting something they want, the person buying it doesn't have to work too hard. Yeah. You know, you're not gonna fill your house to their rafters with 25 teddy bears that all do the same thing.

It is just, yeah, it doesn't get much better than that. Really. We don't do that in my family, probably because we are too British to ask for things. I think there's that kind of, Ooh, it's not very polite though, to say what you want, which is just a bit ridiculous really. But yeah, so no, we don't really, but part of me wishes we did it would be a lot easier.

Does that mean you end up with things where you go. Like, oh no, I really wish someone hadn't bought me. See that there is a little bit of that. You open it and go, oh wow, that's a lot of flashing bright lights. Oh, and it makes a not. Oh, wonderful. Thank, thank you. I love that. Yeah, and to be fair, let's face it, toddlers love it, don't they?

They go bananas for it, for trying to be Montessori all the time. She loves a plastic to yes. And the more plastic and loud and noisy it is, the better. And you there going, but it's not open-ended. Like not. You better use your imagination. Lily, what are you doing? And she's like, mm, but it flashes and it makes a noise.

And I like it. This is it even better when it makes bubbles extra, extra points. See, our current thing is that we like to go round the house with any random object, pretend it's a screwdriver and say, fix, fix, fix. Oh, and I'm like, she would love a toolkit for Christmas, but in no way am I buying a toolkit so that I have to constantly find the actual screwdriver.

Yeah. When currently I can just pass a, whatever small object is to hand and go screwdriver. It's just too hard. That's a good point. We've gone, um, we do a lot of sensory play and just mess making basically. So I've gone for a, a more, it's like a custom built tray thing rather than just using the baking.

See this one I talking very different. Lily really doesn't like, well, she likes sensory, but she don't like getting her hands dirty. Sadly. Sometimes is not a problem. We have, the problem we have is containment and staying. No, no. Stay there. Just stay, just getting some ice. Stay, stay. So, um, but my family don't do church full stop.

Really? So we'd never, I didn't go to church on Christmas Day until I was an adult and dating Mark to be fair. So we just used to kind of bat down the hatches really on Christmas day. And I really actually liked that. 'cause I think as a kid what you really want is just that time with mom and dad and Mm, and brothers or sisters, if you've got them as well.

And just to kind of. Not have any expectations, not have to put a coat in your shoes on and go out for a walk or whatever, just to be allowed to sit at home, watch tv, watch films. Yeah. Play with whatever you've got read. Whatever book you've got was just a luxury. Um, so we'd, it would literally be the four of us plus maybe an elderly relative visiting.

Mm. Um, and that was it. So yeah, that was totally different to what we do now, but magical in its own way. That sounds nice. Yeah. Yeah. We used to do, like, would've done midnight mass the night before, so we always had been like mass, but I quite, I almost, I quite enjoyed being like mass. I mean, but then we wouldn't go to a service on Christmas day.

'cause you'd have done midnight math. Some people would, but you know, we're not hardcore like that. We would be like, well we've been up at midnight, we're gonna, we're gonna stay there, the house. But that'd be quite exciting as a child. Because you knew it turned into Christmas while you were there. Yeah. Um, it was quite similar as in there was a lot of us, so it was quite lively, but we didn't go anywhere.

And because dad was a farmer, he to like to go and feed all the animals. Oh gosh. So I used to find it funny when people would go places. I'm like, well, well they're still busy. It's not like we have the day after. Really. It'd just be like, you'd have the little cold fire on and you'd all get this is, I don't get it.

When you are staying at home all day and people get dressed, I'm like, you wear your Christmas pajamas all day, you're really ruining it if you're getting dressed properly. This is my pet. I think this is why I want the Christmas where we just stay at my house. 'cause go to any Mel's house, you out, you have to get dressed.

And I want, I just wanna stay in my Christmas pajamas all day. Open presents, eat chocolate, you know. Is your family into matching Christmas pajamas? No. Mostly 'cause we're just not that organized. I feel like it's quite a recent thing and I can't see Mark getting on board with it. So it's just an expense that I've saved myself.

We are mismatching pajamas, aren't we? We are. Well, I, I say we, I've always made us do it. You've, um, I don't think before Lily, I got you on board, but we've had Lily, he is been on board with the matching pajamas. What do we do normally go to church on Christmas day? Like when we're here? Well, actually you haven't, I normally take the bies with me.

Oh, last Christmas. Yes, but one s, I don't know, you can say always, but it's been one Christmas. Yes, but that's true. But it's been the one where since Lily's been kind of around before I was lockdown, if we haven't really had any other Christmases to do things. That's true. I stayed and did the cooking.

Yeah, you said and do the cooking. I think that could be a tradition where you stay and do the cooking and I take me the valleys and any children we have to church because it seems to work well need the one that works for the church at home. Yeah. Well I think maybe you get enough church, so you're like, I'll just stay and cook.

Here's some other extracts from our 2024 Christmas conversation.

We have our other tradition, we get a new Gok every year. Yes. Gok, I can't remember if we mentioned this last time. Yeah, no, I dunno if we did big gok thing. This was the thing, uh, last time, you know, it was you and Vicki talking. So, um, I didn't really get much of an input on what we were saying. True. So we kind of got your side of the story, but my side isn't really that interesting, to be honest.

Like, just like I don't have a lot of traditions that I'm bringing to Christmas especially. So, um, I'm kind, like I said at the beginning, I'm a bit of a grinchy kind of person approach. Very similar story to the Grinch in some ways, but I, I always like to try and enjoy Christmas, but. To me, it feels like since having kids, we've, it's all been a bit up in the air.

Like we've never really come down and settled like, oh, these are the things we do at Christmas. These are our traditions. Because you just constantly juggling the parenting. I think they're still developing, aren't they? Yeah. Um, yeah. So I feel like it'll be a few more years yet before we kind of settle on Got this year as we're doing easy Christmas dinner.

'cause when people keep saying, what are you gonna have Christmas dinner to me? And I go, sausages and everybody laughs. Yeah. And we've always been a bit wacky, haven't we? We're we're a bit eccentric. Like it's been quite a number of years since we've had Turkey for Christmas dinner. We had Goose one year.

Yeah, we did duck and various other things. Well, we're not big Turkey fans. No. Well, we like to mix things up. We do. I was gonna ask you what your favorite film is, but you said it earlier. Oh yes. Uh, Klaus. Yes. Favorite favorite Christmas film. Well, I was gonna ask, what was your favorite childhood Christmas film?

Uh, we didn't watch any. Oh, well that's quite sad, isn't it? I told you I'm a bit like a gr We, I, we never watched any Christmas film, I don't think. I think I was about 17 before I saw my first Christmas film. Wow. Okay. Do you wanna guess what my favorite Christmas film was? It's a classic. A classic. It probably doesn't help 'cause I haven't seen many Christmas films.

You'll, you'll know it. Um, like Home Alone. Yeah. Home Alone is one of our favorites. We used to love watching them. Yeah. Now I don't think I choked to Lily. It's got a lot of violence in it. Yeah, that's true. But, uh. Really found it hysterical as a child. It's the first year that Lily is properly aware of everything.

Yes. Um, and we talked a bit about Father Christmas in our last year's Christmas special, but at that point we could fully control the narrative Really. Oh yeah. Around what she understood was going on and she could understand words but didn't understand concept really like that. Yeah. Whereas now we basically have a child and it's about.

Father Christmas, she also has influences from elsewhere. Does, yeah. So for a little period, we've had a while where she thought Father Christmas and Santa were two different people. Different people. People. Yes. What's it in in Bluey when they talk about it? What is he there? I think he's, Santa isn't He's Santa?

'cause he's veranda Santa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of an American. Yeah, kind. And I'm resisting. I keep calling em. We're not a fan, are we? I dunno why either. It's ridiculous thing to be silly about, but I know I just, I have more of a problem with like Americanisms than I do with like faith. I'd be perfectly fine if we like didn't talk about Jesus, but I get more annoyed if we like talk about Santa.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Right. So, yeah. So a bit of a, a mix up, bit of a confusion going on. I think we've, uh, we've established now she's a, she's understood that they are the same person. Yes. Father Christmas is a fantasy imaginary character. Mm. That we teach our children kind of is a real person.

Like we let them believe that there're a real well we, we really feed into it. Most people, you leave them out for things to eat and Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of muddies the waters a little bit. Then when, if you want to, if you know like us, if you believe in a God and things that you want to say like, oh, Jesus and God are a real, it's a real person, that's a real, it's not a fairytale, then that's kind of a bit confusing to be like, oh, well this story wasn't real, but this story which is equally unbelievable is real.

Yes, true. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I know what you mean. I think I don't have as much of a problem with it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, because. I always think it'll be up to our children, whether they believe in any of the things we believe anyway. Yeah. And it's all about their own discernment. So for instance, with Father Christmas, you eventually can realize he's not real because you're like, oh, wait a minute, that writing looks rather like my parents' writing.

Mm. And it seems odd that these things suddenly appear and I've never seen, like there's lots of things that maybe help you realize as you get older that he doesn't exist. Yeah. And I, I would. Want them to question that with faith as well. Yeah, exactly. So I don't necessarily have a problem with it. I think I'm in a similar position where other than people blindly telling them, like I wouldn't ever lie to them if they said, is Father Christmas real?

This is the problem, isn't it? I don't really like the whole lying to kids thing. Yeah. And that's kind of like an ethos thing that we have across everything. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, we do little white lights sometimes. Like, I don't know that this place is close today. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Definitely. 'cause we can't go. Yeah. Um, a hundred percent. Yeah. And like there's, you know, there's things with parenting isn't there all the time. You are, you'll resonate with this that you what you aim to do. Yeah. And what you sometimes actually end up doing are completely different things. Yeah. Often on the podcast, we, we do tend to talk about our ideal parenting.

Mm. Um, and that's why we have things like parenting achievement segments because it's about like, well, actually the reality, it never often works quite that way. Yeah. I mean, I think I have a problem with where faith is presented as very literal. Mm. And therefore, it seems very odd to then also say that, you know, Santo exists to me, it's all fairytales.

It's all myths. Um, faith people might not like me saying stuff like this, but we'll get into it. But you could argue there's a whole mytho around Christianity, even if it's not a myth. Yeah, yeah. Like. Do you what? I mean, there's parts that are more myth than I would say reality. Yeah. But like, you know, there's like, what is St.

Nicholas or whatever, like Yeah. There's truth to him. I think even now Lily has a really good grasp on what's made up, what's imaginary and what's real. Well, for a long time this year, she's not believed in Father Christmas at all. Yeah. It's only since influence from her friends at nursery has kind of convinced her.

And it's tricky 'cause as a parent, I'm quite a down to earth person. I never really believed in Father Christmas growing up myself. I'm a very logical type of person, but equally, I wanna encourage Lily to be creative and imaginative and to have, whereas I think I definitely believed in Father Christmas growing up.

Yeah. Yeah. To me, a lot of the conversation comes back to this whole concept of like. Is it real or not? That's kind of the question that that kid is asking. They're trying to figure out, is Father Christmas real or not? And then it's like, well, is is the stories that we tell around faith is the Tivity story?

Is that real or not? Did it actually happen or did it not? And I really like, I've told you this before, but like that bluey episode Mm. People might be familiar with. Because I think actually that question is kind of, you haven't said which Blue episode. Yeah, I'll get onto this. Oh, right, okay. It's kind of an unhelpful, unnecessary question, like whether it's real or not, that's not really the thing to focus on.

The episode is, um, called, is it called Fairytale? Yeah, I think it is. It really should looked this up. No, it's called Fairy Tale picture. It's the one where they, uh, do flashbacks into the eighties with Bandit's upbringing and his brothers. And, um, they're talking about fairytales and it's, it's kicked off because Louise asked, you know, they're reading a fairytale bedtime story and did it actually happen?

Is it real or not? Mm-hmm. And Bandit kind of goes, well. It, you know, it has a, a message. The message is real, but it's difficult to say whether it actually happened or not. Yeah. And that the kids are struggling to understand this, and so he tells this story of how him. And chili met. But Chili comes in and say, says, that's not what happened.

Yeah. I don't remember meeting you as a child. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't seem plausible, but it's a nice story. Mm. And so they say, well, did, did it happen or did it not? And they say, well, that's up to you. You decide whether it happened. The, the message and the the outcome is kind of the same. It's like they say there's like truth to every story.

I did wanna say there's probably some pluses about Father Christmas too. Oh yeah. It's like showing, it's like a kind old man who gives people presents. Like it's like a joyful little person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's only the good or bad thing. That's bit p. Is it Netflix or Disney? Klaus. Yes. If people watch that, it's got quite a nice message.

Hot Take. I think that's my favorite Christmas movie. Oh. I was gonna ask you that later. Oh yeah. There we go. That all, all the Grinch, like the modern Grinch. I really enjoy the modern, another hot take. I think the modern animated Grinch is better than the original. I agree with that. And I was talking to some of the parents at ballet and they also prefer this Grinch cheese.

The old Grinch. Very good. Most of us were like, it's a better message. He's not just naughty. Like you see his backstory a lot more and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We're kind of, uh, picking apart a lot of the Christmas things here with mm-hmm. Throwing around words like fairytale when it comes to Bible stories. Yeah. Um, but like as Christians, I'm not, I'm not really that fussed about us sticking rigidly to doing lots of churchy stuff. Because there's so many different things going on over Christmas.

There's like 30 plus religious and secular holidays. Yeah. Over like November and December and January. So I have no problem with, uh, people like saying happy holidays or seasons greetings and stuff like that. I only have a problem with ex eczemas because I think it sounds nasty to say it's not pleasing to the ear.

Mm. To me it's another, feels like another Americanism. Well, maybe don't know. Like, uh, that's why I'm not a big fan of it. Uh, it's not really a Christian holiday anyway, so it's like, no, you know, I sent um, him loads of links while I was up late at night with the baby. Um, I find it very funny because a lot of people think I'm very radical with faith and like, kind of, what's the word?

Rock the boat a bit. But people don't always know that you are very radical as well and you're actually Oh yeah. You know, a lot more than me. So actually are much more capable of Yes. Of arguing, picking stuff apart. Yeah. And I think. I've always been pretty liberal. Yeah. So, um, some ideas you like are thinking about now.

I've kind of always thought about, my main thing is Christmas isn't really of Christian holiday at all. It's a Pagans last Roman holiday. 'cause I had two ly things going around that time. The fact we have lights on the trees, like I think that's a pagan thing really? Mm. A lot of our traditions are adopted.

Adopted now. It's like odd to do with them being the light of the world. I'm like, we've just taken that and being like, we'll make it into a Christian related thing. The whole light of the world thing. I mean that's all to do with like the winter solstice. Yeah. And about the light coming back. But I mean, I'm fine for them to adapt it, but I want to, I think when Christians are very critical of people Yeah.

Taking over Christmas, I wanna be like, well we took it over. Yeah. It wasn't our thing at all. People didn't used to celebrate Christmas. His birth wasn't considered, Jesus wasn't born on 25th of December. No. Like, it's just a bit ridiculous. We didn't, as Christians, I don't think we used to celebrate his birth.

Till, like I say, fairly recently in terms of Christianity. Not as in like, you know, oh, there's loads of stuff like that where like the Victorians established so much tradition. Yeah, they did. And we've just assumed that, oh well we've always done this. We've always done it. Yeah. All the carols we sing, they're all like Victorian carols.

That's their cultural stamp. And Christmas trees, our, it's a German tradition they brought over the Victorians. Just you do ever, and I'm not, I'm quite pro tradition in that I love a good C Ingle service. Yeah. Like a Carol service, like a crib service. Like 'em all. Mm. So far we've not taken our kids to a lot of stuff 'cause they've been quite little and I, I just feel like, I think it's are quite late.

Yeah. Like a lot of Christmas services aren't ideal for taking kids to, some of them try to be, but even then, like a 4:00 PM crib service or something, still a bit late. It is well ing Lily's time. If she's gonna get grumpy, it's gonna be in the afternoon and then it. If you're expecting her to be on her best behavior, it's not gonna happen.

Yeah. So maybe in future years we'll return to doing some churchy stuff around Christmas, but at the moment we, we don't really bother too much. Yeah. We go to what we can, but if it doesn't work with our schedule doesn, we don't worry ourselves too much. Yeah. We've been chatting a lot recently about the nativity story doesn't, um, and about how a lot of that is kind of embellished and not literal, or least like for us, a lot of it isn't, or a lot of it's symbolic.

Yeah. So they've purposely put certain characters in it. To symbolize what they're hoping for it to. Like a myth and a fairytale. Yeah, true. Did we wanna do any more specific picking apart of the nativity story or not? Yes. Okay. That was a very resounding, definite. We were discussing it earlier and I wanted to mention it.

Yeah. Okay. Go for it. I have a big problem that we put a lot of emphasis on the fact that Mary was a virgin. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Mainly because A, I don't think it matters. Yeah. Um, B as we've discussed, it's a translation error more than anything else. She probably, that wasn't mentioned at all. Most likely a young maiden.

Yeah. And we've made connotations about what that means about her sexual stuff. Well, I might, frankly, nobody's business. Yeah. It doesn't matter to me if she or wasn't. Yeah. Um, I get more annoyed that I remember when I was growing a church, they would like always be like the Virgin Mary. Like it was her main positive trait was that she was this virginal person.

It's a whole purity culture thing. Yeah. And like. In a lot of our liberal churches and things, we try, we try to pretend that we're not high control religion. Mm. We're evangelical Christians. We're not like in America where it's all quite culty. Mm. Uh and we're very much less culty. We still have a lot of this residue, which Yeah.

Still kind of ties us to it. That is kind of purity culture. And also, I have a big thing that, like, as a child, I didn't know what that word meant, but it was said so often, like you'd question it. And I would think if Lily asked me, oh, why is she the virgin Mary? I don't know how I'd answer that. Yeah. We've explained kind of procreation to it in the form of science.

Like there's an egg and a sperm. I'm like, how, how would I go about at this age going like, well, it's someone who hasn't done a certain thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't believe in it anyway, but, well, I just, A lot of people, I, I, I just think it, it is so problematic. Yeah. I don't mind if they mentioned it in passing, but it's a fact.

It's like. Always put together as a phrase. And this is kind of why we're discussing this now, because Lily's got to that point where she's getting a lot of external influence. So things like this, particularly around Christmas, when so much of it is so, so common in, you know, just the language of what's being said around Christmas, that it feels like she will pick up words, she picks, will pick up things, and that will lead to conversations.

We're just, she's very interested, interested in discussing how we will deal with all that. Yeah. 'cause she's very interested in language and words at the minute, I don't think I'm equipped to handle a question. Oh, there's so many things like that, but I think it just, it'll be nuanced conversation over a long time, you know, like.

Even if she asked about like angels or asked about what does prophecy mean? Or like, there's so many things within the nativity story that are just said, said as if that's just the reality. They're just normal everyday things that we all accept. I feel like at least an angel, there's a tangible thing you can point to and go that is an angel, I suppose.

I think it's perfectly possible to have the nuanced conversation with children without it needing to be black and white to be like, this is real and this is not real. Yeah. Um, and there's a temptation with kids to simplify it like that, that you know, this is a depiction of an angel. That's what it is.

And to me, that's. It's unsatisfactory. It reminds me, I was, you know, I mentioned it to some of our Christian group within the Kairos movement, it reminds me a lot of science at school. Mm. Where in the early days of science, you know, secondary school, they teach you one thing. Mm. You move up several years, maybe you get to GCSEs and then A levels, and depending how far you went with science.

And you discover actually, oh no, there's, there's like a deeper thing going on there. Mm-hmm. And the first thing you were told was completely wrong. Yeah. Because they were simplifying it so much that actually it was just inaccurate. Well, even now, like sometimes you'll say something to me about science and I'm like, oh, well I never did it to that higher degree.

Yeah. So I never knew that. 'cause I wasn't taught that. I was just taught the basic level. Yeah. And I feel like we do that a lot with faith as well. We simplify it so much. That to try and tell kids and then it becomes very black and white. Mm. And then that's just kind of unhelpful going forward. Um, yeah.

True. You know, I'm fine for her not to believe it. Yeah. Like, we're not about indoctrination. No. I'm like, I'd like her to know some of the stories and she can make up for, because it's more, I think with a lot of Christianity, I think it's more the meaning you get from it rather than when you think it's real or not.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, is there any more heretical things we want to talk about on to do with faith and Christmas and kids? This is, this is a side note. I thought it was quite funny. I told earlier, earlier as a child, I thought Jesus was just a baby. Um, because there was such a big deal made of Christmas rather than, you know, his life that as a child I was like, well he is a baby.

How's he doing all this stuff? He only exists. Oh. So did you think he only existed as a baby or do you thought like he did everything, all of those stories? I thought he Everything as a baby. As a baby, yeah, because like that walked on water as a baby. But picture did are pictures. I'd seen him of him, he was a baby and I was like, I don't think a baby could do all this stuff.

Maybe we make a bit too much of the Christmas story. 'cause his child, I was a bit confused. So yeah, be fascinated to know if you are a Christian out there, how do you navigate? Some of the, you know, what goes on around that and how you talk to your kids about it, or if you are not someone of faith, uh, how you found any of this conversation.

I've no idea.

You know, people are talking about like, what is it called that it's how old I'm, I can't remember that famous Christmas song and if you hear it, you're out. Oh yeah. Wham Mageddon. Is it called? Yeah. Wha Mageddon. I never hear that. 'cause I don't listen, I only listen to Spotify on my phone. So where do you realize the point is we don't go out?

Like the point is that it's when you hear it like. Like it pops up because you know, you're in a shop. I mean, we don't listen to the radio even in the car. Like we don't No. Yeah. Know what I mean? That's what I mean. We're not, we're not, we're not like normal people who are going about doing everyday things.

I was just like, it's very easy for me to win it 'cause it's not on my playlist. Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean. Like we just don't, we don't go anywhere so we have no opportunity to hear it anywhere. Yeah. When there's no radio and you're just listening to your own Spotify people were, people don't that already.

And in my head I was like, it's like tv. We don't watch like normal tv. So it's not gonna pop up. No, because we just watch pop Netflix or Disney plus ads or anything on there. True. Uh, where else would you hear it? I suppose like people just playing it on the street maybe, but that'd be weird, would it? Yeah, I don't, yeah.

Where do you hear it? Just so people were like, I'm already out. And I was like, how I've not like maybe work, A lot of people go, go to work. Like if you're in an office, it plays What would be play music the whole time? Because when I used to work in an office, we weren't allowed to play music where it depends what sort of work have, isn't it?

That's true. Uh, if you go to a Christmas party, maybe that's true. Oh, we've not really done that either, because I'm pretty sure last year we got, it was after Christmas and I was like, I haven't heard it at all. And I'd even been to stuff by that point. Yeah. Yeah. We, yeah, we could easily win it, couldn't we?

Because, but I mean, to be fair, I've not heard any Christmas music other than the stuff I've played myself. I, I have. But it's like, again, I disneyland's own version other than taking Lily to school. I can't remember when I left the house. So true. I, I like go on the shops like little and places. Oh, little.

Yeah. Do they play music? Little. When you've got kids. I mean, maybe the likelihood is maybe they have been playing it, we've just never noticed. That's true. We're just so distracted. Well also Lily's by chaos, Lily of s probably belting out, let it Go. So we've like not had anything above that. Yeah, yeah. I suppose we should say have a Holy Jo Christmas.

Yes. We could say, we could say that. That's very good. We should say Happy Christmas. Hope you have a good time. Uh, we will be back in the new year. I'm not quite sure what's gonna happen then. We might take a little bit of a break. Might do. I've got a big event coming up in February in my work. Yes. So I'm gonna be like, snowed under for a bit, a very Christmas soon unintentional.

Um, but yeah, as we'll. We'll see what happens. We'll, there'll definitely be more episodes and then we'll be, you know, back to sharing what's going on in our lives and we'd love to hear from you in the meantime. Yeah. What are your Christmas plans quite interest to hear about? Well, I suppose that's, uh.

Goodbye. Yes, goodbye. God bless. Oh, enjoy the season. Try not to get all the bugs and flus. Have some mulled wine. He's looking at me now.