Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Breaking Free: Understanding Process Addiction
Have you ever considered that addiction isn't just about substances? Beneath the surface of many addictive behaviors lies something profoundly misunderstood—process addiction. Join host Drew Powell as he sits down with therapists Dan and Jill from Valiant Living to unpack this complex topic with remarkable candor and expertise.
"The drug is between your ears," explains Dan, highlighting how process addictions like sex addiction, gambling, internet/gaming, and shopping create the same neurological pathways as substance use, but the source is your own brain producing dopamine. This fascinating conversation reveals why these addictions are often missed or minimized despite their devastating impact on relationships and mental health.
The therapists explain that at its core, every addiction is fundamentally an intimacy disorder—a broken connection. The addiction becomes the primary relationship, pushing loved ones aside as walls of secrecy and shame grow taller. "Your addiction wants you alone," Dan shares, describing how isolation feeds the cycle. While substances numb feelings, process addictions often seek to create feelings, making them particularly complex to treat.
For family members, the discussion offers invaluable insights into recognizing warning signs and supporting recovery without becoming detective-investigators themselves. The specialists emphasize that recovery requires addressing the "why" beneath behaviors, not just managing symptoms, and that the brain needs 75-120 days just to reach baseline functioning where deeper therapeutic work can begin.
Whether you're personally struggling with process addiction, supporting someone who is, or simply seeking understanding, this episode delivers profound wisdom about the path toward genuine connection and freedom. As one recovering addict shares, "My worst day in recovery is better than my best day in addiction." Discover why true strength means asking for help and how community transforms isolation into healing.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. Well, I get to hang out with two of my favorite people today let me produce the podcast and control issues already actually check it make sure it's on real quick is it running?
Speaker 1:yeah all right, good, we're good yes, it is oh man, this is like. You guys are like like family to me, so this is fun. Jill's been begging to come back on the podcast because she just loves wow, have I ever?
Speaker 1:yes, um, today we get to talk about everyone's favorite topic process addictions. Um, this, among other things, was absolutely brand new to me when I came to Valiant. Never even knew it existed in the universe. You guys, is it safe to say you I don't want to say you specialize in this, but is that? Would that be accurate?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say, that's fair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely yeah. And a little backstory on when Dan and and I met and Jill, you were my, our family therapist and had many late night conversations with Jamie in the grocery store while you got, you know, talking her through all this stuff and we'll always be forever grateful for that. And when I met Dan for the first time I don't know if you know this story, but when I came in, there was a lot of substance abuse guys at the time and I'm coming in trying to figure out my stuff and which a lot of co-addiction going on to come to find out. Um, but dan and I dan was working in housing at the time and he was in there and it was the first time I get emotionally thinking about it, because it was the first time I talked to someone I was like that's my story, that's it, like we just can. We became brothers from that point on.
Speaker 1:Because I was like, oh, he started talking about process addiction. I was like, yeah, that's me, that's me, that's me. And that was maybe a few days or a week into my my experience here. But I was like, wow, I just found myself in that, in that story. So this is a big part of what valaliant does and kind of a little bit of our niche. I mean, obviously we treat all different kinds of addictions, but something that we specialize in and largely thanks to the two of you. So thanks for being willing to sit down, and this could go off the rails with the three of us.
Speaker 2:Who knows, we'll try to be on our best behavior. I think it's pretty much guaranteed to go off the rails. Yeah, we've got the script here of questions I. I think it's pretty much guaranteed to go off the rails. Yeah, we've got the script here of questions. I have a feeling we may do about two of them. We don't stick to at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, all right, let's start the basics here. Can you talk? What exactly is process addictions? How do they differ from substance use disorders? If this is a new phrase or term for people, which I imagine it will be for many, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I don't know, like who goes first. So process addictions are like food, which is one of the things that we don't do here at Valiant, but then there's also like video games, internet pornography, gambling, sex, right, so these are process addictions. So a process addiction is basically an addiction that a lot of people see as something, as an unhealthy, maybe, habit or an unhealthy hobby that takes over and then the dopamine that they're getting from doing that thing comes from their brain, instead of a substance addiction, where the dopamine that they're getting from that habit or the thing that they're doing comes from the substance itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the way I like to like to also discuss it is the drug is is between your ears, you know, it's your brain, it's your thinking. Um, you know, in substance, obviously there's a literally a physical substance you know in in process addictions it's, it's something outside of that, it's something that starts mainly and perseverates in your head in the thought process. Like Jill said, gambling, sex addiction with pornography. I mean, yes, there's physical things that you're doing, but it all is based in thought.
Speaker 1:Is this newer, newer stuff has been around for a long time Cause I think a lot of people would hear some of the things that you just said in. You know, and I think definitely with sex addiction, gambling are a few that are getting more popular in terms of needing treatment and actually being addiction, but I'd imagine a lot of people for a lot of years didn't even view those things you mentioned as on the on the spectrum of addiction.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, sex addiction still hasn't made the DSM. You know, dsm is the, what is the? I can't even remember the it's our diagnostic manual. Diagnostic manual, gotcha, and the S stands for something. Yeah, but it's, yeah, but it's. We're at the DSM-5-TR, which is the text revision. So there's been, you know, multiple, multiple versions of the DSM. That the diagnostics have been created. Well, they still don't recognize sex addiction as an addiction.
Speaker 1:And is that like the standard for addictions?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's kind of like our Bible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gotcha, and then that gets based then out of insurance, then too, oh right. If it's not diagnosed in the DSM, or if there's not a diagnosis in the DSM, then the insurance company isn't going to kick in to treat it. Hence the reason our guys here have to. You know we have to look at other. Okay, is there other comorbidity? Is there mental health? Is there addiction to alcohol? You know substance uses Is there other pieces that we can also be treating?
Speaker 3:while we're doing this, and there always is. There always is Addiction interaction is real. Yeah, so there's always an addiction interaction or a comorbidity that goes along with that right.
Speaker 1:Can you explain addiction interaction for people that may not be familiar with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's where maybe we start with one addiction, then we add another. That's what actual addiction interaction is. Or we have mental health issues and then with those we start looping in other negative ways to cope. So maybe we're depressed and we start drinking, or maybe we're anxious and we start drinking and then those things escalate into other things, right? So if I'm escalation looks like a whole bunch of different things, right? So chasing the dragon. So if it's alcohol, maybe it starts with beer and then it goes to hard alcohol and then it's more, and then maybe we start drugs and then we try different kinds of drugs and then it goes to more. So we're always trying to chase like that one way we felt when we very first started using. So we're always trying to chase that one way we felt when we very first started using. The same is with porn, right? Maybe we start watching really basic vanilla-type porn and then it escalates into more risque porn or different types of porn.
Speaker 1:Because you're going after that.
Speaker 3:That initial feeling, that dopamine.
Speaker 1:So you kind of numb out out to that stuff and it just progressively gets deeper and deeper.
Speaker 2:Another piece with addiction interaction is let's say, a person comes off of substances, some sort of substance, and then all of a sudden they start getting a shopping addiction or a pornography addiction, or maybe they were on a substance but now they start drinking alcohol to a great degree. That can be replacement. You can be just simply replacing that original addiction as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we could do cross addiction versus that replacement. There's all sorts of different ways that it happens.
Speaker 2:There's 11 different categories of of of addiction interaction.
Speaker 1:Well, cause, that was mine, is I. I started drinking to cope with my primary, like just the numb out from that, so that that was why, you know, when I came in, that was a problem for me for sure. Interesting that what you're saying. So what are the ones? Well, before I get to that, what I love about what you guys do here is you go below the surface of all those addictions and it's why there's guys that could come in from a lot of different backgrounds and really a lot of different unhealthy copes and addictions and find a lot of commonality because even though, like, our escapes might be a little bit different, the things that drive us to them, like you mentioned anxiety and you know, stress, depression, whatever they are tend to be a lot the same, right, I mean, is that what you? You guys see that a lot, right?
Speaker 2:you come in and like guys don't connect and then at the end of it they're like wow yeah, very much. I mean it's's. It's the way we look at it. Also is it's not about the what.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we already know what the what is we know what the what is the?
Speaker 2:what is the substance, the what is the? Sex addiction, the what is gambling? You know, we know what the what is. We're going to dig into the why. Why is this a problem for you in your life? What is it that happened in your childhood, in your adulthood, just in your life in general that has created this unhealthy manner of dealing with stress, anxiety, depression? What is at the bottom?
Speaker 1:of that. So what are the ones that we specifically deal with here? You mentioned we don't do food.
Speaker 3:That's a tricky one, you want to be in a medical facility for that for sure, oh really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that one's a hard one to treat Interesting Because you have to eat right. Is that why?
Speaker 3:It's a reintroduction to eating. Yeah, you have to do it safely. There's a lot of risks involved in that for sure.
Speaker 1:Is it true that that that a lot of people when they go and I heard this when I was here when they go, if they have to go back to treatment or rehab, a lot of times it's for something else then the the primary thing they went for, because it's almost like they, yeah, yeah, handle that one issue, but if they don't get to the why, like what you guys do with us here?
Speaker 3:yeah, then we're gonna show up. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna just're going to just swap, right. Yeah, interesting yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I was in treatment there was a gentleman that I was in treatment with that he had been. This was his third treatment facility. He went for alcohol the first time, he went for substance cocaine the second time and then he went for intimacy disorder and, you know, the sex addiction at the third one and he finally figured out just why?
Speaker 1:Well, we joked about it too, because not joked, but you've got to have a sense of humor a little bit. But the guys that I was here with that were here for substance. They were all the same guys too. They were all sex addicts, right? That's what I was going to say.
Speaker 3:And if we're going to be honest're all dabbling, right. So if we're here for something, we're dabbling in a little bit of everything. And if we're looking at any addiction, every addiction is an intimacy disorder, right?
Speaker 1:so, yeah, I've heard you say that before and I love that because I hope it helps reframe, because I feel like there's just so much stigma still around addiction, this idea. You know, and I've heard more people teach lately that everyone is in this camp, on that spectrum at some point.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you guys believe that or not, but everyone has these addictive tendencies.
Speaker 1:And when you talk intimacy disorder, that specifically really helps me relate to like, oh yeah, I've got it and it's really a connection issue. It really is. That's all it is. It's like a huge connection issue.
Speaker 3:So I gave up the connection with the people that I love the most, the things that I enjoy the most work, friends, right, all those things, my family. For whatever my drug of choice was, whether it was a process addiction or a substance use issue, I gave up all the things that were the most important to me to that one thing, or multiple things, because sometimes it's many.
Speaker 2:That becomes your mistress, that becomes the most important thing to you. It no longer becomes at some point in time. It no longer becomes a want, it becomes a need for your body. It becomes a need. And so everything else takes a backseat. Everybody else takes a backseat to that addiction, you know, and, and, and it just creates this, this boundary, this wall of, because if I'm, if I'm showing everybody around me that I have these issues, then they're going to judge me, they're going to think lesser of me, and and so I'm just going to pull back, I'm going to hide, I'm going to. I'm going to judge me, they're going to think lesser of me, and so I'm just going to pull back, I'm going to hide, I'm going to go isolate because my addiction isn't going to allow me to. My addiction isn't going to judge me, it's not going to be mad at me, it's not going to yell at me, it's not going to treat me poorly, it's going to love me, and you know.
Speaker 2:And so with that thinking, of course we're going to back off from, from those around us, because it is telling us those people are going to hurt you. Right, I'm not. And when you have that talk in your head. Of course you're going to, you know of course you're going to. And so when you back off, yeah it, it wants you, your addiction wants you alone. Yeah, it wants you by itself. It wants to be your own, your one and only. And it wants you isolated. And when it does that, it wins.
Speaker 3:It wins then it starts telling you things like if anybody really knew you, they wouldn't love you. If anybody could see what you're doing, they would pass judgment.
Speaker 1:Exactly what you're saying, dan so you hide until you can't hide eventually it's going to catch up and you're going to implode when. I say you, I mean me and me.
Speaker 2:Your family already knows that's. When I say you, I mean me and me and your family already knows that's what I tell you guys all the time.
Speaker 3:Your family already knows. You think you're sneaky and you think that you're holding a secret, but they see it.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's really a miserable way of living too, because once you and I have I want this for my friends who are in recovery or my friends who are addicts, my friends who are in recovery or my friends who are addicts where it's like, once you experience the freedom of being fully honest and and fully known, fully loved, like you said it's. You're almost ruined to go back and the disease is strong, right, and we, we still get called into isolating all those things, but you feel it like. You feel it when there's that disconnect, you're like man, you know, and and we need to do a whole episode, we've talked about doing this on disclosure because man, that is a, that is a brutal process, but man, it's such a, a beautiful thing when it's done therapeutically and done right where it's like you're, you give yourself really the gift of being like, wow, wow, okay, whoever I have to do the disclosure with, they have all the cards now.
Speaker 1:And you get to the point in your treatment here at least I did where, even if that has a quote-unquote negative outcome, you still want it because the idea of being free and being honest is the most important thing, and Joe would always tell us in sessions. You would always say, hey, no matter what happens, you're going to be okay.
Speaker 2:You're going to be you're going to be fine.
Speaker 1:He's going to get through it and it's like, okay, this is really hard right now, but it's going to be okay. And, man, that is like the best feeling in the world to have that kind of freedom and that kind of honesty. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You have to not be harboring secret anymore, You're not holding it in your pocket anymore, like everything's just out, it's just out.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the way I look at it now, too is my worst day in recovery is better than any of my best days in addiction. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just so much more freeing, you know, being honest, being open, not having to worry about you know who you. Okay, what lie did I tell to this person? What exaggeration or what you know? It's a juggling match that you're going to lose. You're going to lose every freaking time. You're going to lose it every time.
Speaker 3:Who did I tell what to and when?
Speaker 2:and why.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh gosh, I don't know if you felt this way or not, but I still and less now than early on, but I still was carrying I almost had to remind myself that I didn't have anything to hide. Yeah, I was so used to living in a way of like, even in just what I would say like smaller things, but it still was manipulative, but it was like, oh, wait a minute, yeah, there is, there is nothing to hide, but I still almost had that. I was just used to that way of living.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that guilty feeling, the guilty feeling.
Speaker 1:Like, oh, wait a minute, I'm not hiding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm being honest, I'm being open, I'm being vulnerable, I'm not lying by omission, I'm not just truly lying, I'm being honest. And reminding ourselves of that gratitude for being that way is is so important because and we have to give ourselves that grace of of remembering okay, yeah, I'm living life. I'm living life differently now than I did before.
Speaker 1:So here we. We treat sex addiction, gambling addiction, and are those the two main ones for process station that we treat? Are there others?
Speaker 3:No, we do shopping, so video so video, video games a little bit closer.
Speaker 1:I want to hear your oh sorry, beautiful voice. Oh yeah, the chipmunk voice um.
Speaker 3:So we do shopping gambling, sex in.
Speaker 2:So shopping gambling work work but the only process addiction we don't do is the food is the eating and, like Jill said, that one just needs to be so medically supervised. But we can pretty much handle any of the other Because the interesting thing between gambling and sex and all the process addictions are, there's so much interconnectedness. I was going to ask are there similar ways of treating yeah, internet, yeah, oh right, that's another addiction my brain shut off for a second.
Speaker 3:I'm like wait, what am I forgetting? Yeah um, we, we never think of like how this, this is the phone, is such a thing, right? Um, we take it away from you guys and so many people lose their minds.
Speaker 2:That's. That's. That's our biggest fight with the guys Once they've joined the program. That's our biggest fight when it comes to it's not how much they're meeting with their therapist, it's not how much they're, you know, getting outside meetings, it's when can I get my damn phone, you know, and that that in its that in itself we like look at them then and be like you. Sure you need your phone at this point.
Speaker 1:Well, and once you detox from it, and when we, when you finally do get it back, you're kind of like, oh man, finally do get it back.
Speaker 3:you're kind of like, oh man, that's one of the things too that we witness too. A lot of guys are like, yeah, no, I don't want it back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a guy that I kept it from for 28 days and he came back to me then later and said that was the best thing you could have done for me. Oh yeah, because I'm not, I don't need it like I did before. It's there.
Speaker 1:I use it like I did before. It's there, I use it as I need to, but it's not attached to me 24-7 now, like it was Well, it's like it feels like a I was going to say medicine, but not in a good way, but it's like for me, the anxiety my brain is always going like, always going like, always going. You know, it wasn't until I got here that I've described it, where it felt like at the soul level, like an engine that was revving, that just like went and just like calmed down. And I remember talking to dr martin and being like, hey, I think that something's wrong with me.
Speaker 2:no, we've been wanting to do an intervention on you for your adhd.
Speaker 1:Anyway she's like, uh, because I'm like, because my brain, like I was so used to my brain just going, going, going, going, going, yeah, that when it stopped doing that I it freaked me out a little bit. I thought I was, I thought I was, you know, having an episode but I think the phone and work and all these other things it's.
Speaker 1:If we don't use the practices that were taught here and the tools we're giving here, whether it's meditation or going outside or whatever I'll use those still work phone, whatever to quiet my brain for a second by filling it with other things. Does that make sense? Absolutely.
Speaker 3:I'm like what do you mean? You don't have a theme song in your head all the time. You don't hear things in your brain like music constantly going you don't have a theme song in your head all the time. Yeah, you don't hear things in your brain like music, like constantly going. You don't have a theme song, no, but I totally get it.
Speaker 1:And I legitimately think my wife doesn't.
Speaker 3:She probably doesn't. No, she doesn't.
Speaker 1:Because we've talked about this recently, where it's been like, hey, do you not? And she's like, no, I don't.
Speaker 3:You mean you could just lay down and go sleep. What is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not a constant. I wake up to my thoughts already going full speed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so do Dan and I. We talk about it all the time, do you really? Oh, yeah, good Well, I feel less alone there. No, it's totally fine. You work with a whole bunch of ADDers. It's good to go.
Speaker 1:But that's why we have to have the good, the healthy coping tools and mechanisms. Because if not, tools and mechanisms, because if not those are all all those process addictions, for me are the things yes I will go to to quiet my brain, to get a moment of peace well, addiction, addiction is is praise on the, the, the attention deficit person yeah, you look at.
Speaker 2:You look at a lot of addiction and it's it comes out of adhd and and those, those types of disorders.
Speaker 1:I realize that it makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they want a way to numb. You know, especially early on for kids with you'll hear a lot of kids that are ADHD. That will you know. They immediately go to alcohol or weed and they say, oh my God, it actually I can think, help me, calm down, I can calm, whoa.
Speaker 3:It's so wrapped up in depression too, there's so much depression tied to it because you just can't focus and you can't get stuff done, so you feel like you're a failure when that's not it at all. If your brain's constantly going, you can't just stop. That's completely off topic by the way I love it.
Speaker 1:It's great, this is great. I'm learning.
Speaker 2:Totally went to a squirrel moment. You, yeah, we've totally. This is great.
Speaker 1:No, I'm learning Totally went to a squirrel moment. You're welcome. There we go. Well, intimacy disorder and process addiction Way to bring us back. Yeah Well, I'm just thinking how are those two connected specifically, and how is it different than with substance?
Speaker 2:So in intimacy disorder, like we said, every addiction our belief is that every addiction has intimacy disorder in it. And so you're going to not communicate with your spouse or friends, or you're going to be hiding things. All of those things create a lack of intimacy. So when you're creating a lack of intimacy, what then also happens is your spouse now is wondering what's wrong with me.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Okay. And when your spouse starts wondering what's wrong with me? Because they see you pulling back now, they're going to be like there's something wrong with me, so they pull back, and so now neither one of you are being, are communicating in a healthy manner. You're both hiding things. You're both because, because the spouse is, is afraid to rock the boat, because, let's say that the, the, the addict has.
Speaker 2:The addict gets upset or shuts down or runs off anytime the spouse brings something up, because we'll hear a lot of guys that will say, well, yeah, I used to create fights with my spouse to give me reason to walk away, to leave, to go act out, to have to deal with the real reason. Yes, so there's an actual yes To leave, to go act out, to have to deal with the real reasons.
Speaker 1:Yes, so there's an actual yes.
Speaker 2:So they would create a situation, create a argument, create this so that they could go and use or act out when you know that in and of itself would be an intimacy disorder area. Because here I am sabotaging my connection with my spouse.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like you've got two people and sometimes more, and it's why you guys work a lot with family systems that are just in this exhausting game of trying to manage one another. Yes, but no one's really being honest with how they feel or how they're being impacted by whatever. They're just trying to manage.
Speaker 2:So everybody the rest of the house is probably walking around on eggshells because of the addict and they don't want to rock the boat. They don't want to talk about the elephant in the room and it's usually not just one elephant, there's usually about 16 elephants in the room because it's just multiplied and multiplied and multiplied. 16 elephants in the room because it's it's just multiplied and multiplied and multiplied. And so when there's no communication about anything or just surface level oh, I like your shirt today.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, okay, well, the addict feels like, oh yeah, we're communicating really well. No, you're not Right. You know, it's surface level stuff.
Speaker 3:Right, she spoke to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah she spoke to me.
Speaker 2:She didn't scream at me, right, right.
Speaker 1:Right, it was amazing. We're connecting, yes, we're talking. Everything's great, everything's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly when deep down she is feeling like crap, so abandoned and so much not engaged and there's no intimacy. And I always have, we always remind the guys also, when we talk about intimacy, it very rarely is sexual intimacy. When we're talking intimacy, we're talking to, we're talking about the true into me. You see, you know, if you can see into me, then I'm, you know, as an addict. That scares me to death, for sure. That scares me to death.
Speaker 3:If you go downstairs and ask these men, especially our new guys, what intimacy means, they're going to say sex, absolutely.
Speaker 2:They're going to say sex, for sure, every time Right, and to me, intimacy is maybe 25% of the pie.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's almost like the byproduct of true connection or something.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes it is Because you think, with women, that's the connection they want that connection. They need that connection in order to be physically attracted to their spouse. Be, you know, physically attracted to, to their spouse. Where men it's, you know, we're the exact we're. We're animals, you know, you know grunting and all that kind of stuff, you know, but but the fact of it is we're doing exact the exact opposite of what they, what, what our spouse wants and needs in an intimate relationship. They want to see into us, that into me. You see, yeah, and if we've got that wall built up, they're just they're, they're, they're gonna separate, they're gonna, they're gonna push off, push away also, because they're gonna start thinking what am I doing wrong?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's about me, yeah you know what are some of the key differences between substance and process, and then even how you would treat that therapeutically.
Speaker 3:There really isn't. If I'm looking at my process addiction guys and my substance use guys, addiction is addiction. So we're actually trying to figure out the why. So once we figure out what the why is, then we need to figure out how to work on healthy coping mechanisms, how to work on whatever that trauma is, how to get past that, how to work through communication, how to build on reconnection, how to find intimacy in the room right with your peers, how to make new friends, how to make new habits. So really what we're looking at is like how to rebuild from what was like what was shattered right. So we're just rebuilding. Is what we're doing. The foundation's there.
Speaker 3:So now we just have to put things back together. When I'm looking at addiction, there's really not a difference between the two, process and substance. There is, in a sense, of course, like one is a substance and one is like in your head, you're using your own head and your own thought process to do it. I guess the main difference between the two would be you can't put a plug in a jug for process addiction. Some of them you can. Gambling, you can. You can put a plug in a jug for gambling For sure. For sex, you can't. You can for internet, you can't.
Speaker 1:Really for shopping either You've got to buy groceries.
Speaker 3:But you can't for food, right. There are some things you just can't put a plug in a jug.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's part of the challenge with some of those is like redefining the relationship Because, like you said, like with heroin, there's no like heroin in moderation. No, it's like you, just you know, but with some of these, not all of them, but that's the hard part is, we are sexual object.
Speaker 2:We definitely are. We are sexual beings.
Speaker 3:So that portion of it. You're having to learn how to rebuild and have new connection and healthy connection, healthy relationships, but that goes for every addiction again. So like what is the difference? You have to learn how to have a healthy sexual relationship. That would be one of the main differences. You have to have a healthy relationship with food, like if you're having an eating disorder. So those rebuilding blocks are different than it is for the other disorders.
Speaker 2:The biggest difference I see between the two of them is it's looked at as substance abuse. You're typically trying to numb feelings okay, process addiction, sex addiction especially. You're trying to feel feelings. You're trying to feel, okay, interesting, but really be other than that. It's, it's, it's. You know it's in the same neural pathways, the same you know dopamine releases, the same you know endorphins and adrenaline and you know all of that is the same. So really there's only that, that, that that one difference in my mind well and a lot of this.
Speaker 1:Anybody's ever watched any movies or tv shows. People are familiar with withdrawal, like you know, from substance, like okay, I'm having, you know, drug withdrawal, whatever is. Is there such a thing as withdrawal from a process addiction?
Speaker 3:as well. Absolutely yeah to pulling all the dopamine away. So we're gonna hit andonia and like hit rock bottom and feel like, is this it? Um, we have to get the brain back on track, right, so we're taking everything away is it similar to like a substance withdrawal or is it?
Speaker 1:is it different or is this?
Speaker 3:it depends on the person I think it's it's similar in in certain ways right. You know, like some substances are harder, right, but when you're creating that yourself, it's longer to like, rebuild it back up, right, because we created that in our head ourselves, right, like with some chemicals, it's easier because you're just taking it away and now we have to figure out how to like.
Speaker 3:Once the chemical's out or detoxed from, then you can start Really build it back up, but when it's your own brain, like we're trying to figure out, like how to get it all, back, rewire it. Yeah, we're rewiring like for everybody right. So it's trying to get everything back on board, right, Like you think to yourself. Like what's not talking to what on what side of the brain? Right that's?
Speaker 1:why you?
Speaker 3:see the psychiatrist and try to get on on the right regimen for like sleep yeah and the right regimen for if you're going to take an ssri, or like figuring out, like, if the why um to your what is, because maybe you have, you know, like some kind of mental health thing like bipolar or something like that Like, are we on the right meds? So those kinds of things are super important. So that's another thing that we look at when you're here is making sure that you're medicated, which you probably weren't taking care of at all. So even if you were medicated at some point in your life, in your active addiction, all that kind of went out the window.
Speaker 1:So it's trying to get back on track with that One reason why I'm a huge advocate for people going to treatment is also just having the safe space away from whatever their addiction of choice is. Because, as you're talking, I'm just remembering how long it took for me to actually feel like my brain was, like I was thinking straight again.
Speaker 2:Well, it's Karns. Patrick Karns has done some work on that and he says it's somewhere, depending on the person, it's person-driven, but it's between 75 and 120 days, depending on the person, to get them back to just a baseline, not even rewiring new neural pathways, but just to get them back to a normal baseline. You know so. So you, you figure kind of on an average 90 days, you know, and that's just to get back to, just so you can start doing the work again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's why a lot of us alumni guys and I were working on doing some of this kind of stuff. Like there's a lot of us that want to come to come back, not for 90, but come back for a week or 10 day intensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen, I could use it. Yeah, yeah, there's, there's, yeah, I think a lot of you guys could scoop you up for 30.
Speaker 1:if I'm being, if I'm being candid. If it wasn't for, like, family and responsibilities, I would absolutely, in a healthier space, come back and do it again, yeah.
Speaker 3:I would hang out with all of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, because so much of it you're just fighting to survive and you're fighting for you. So it's like and the therapy is great, and but you know, I just think it would be so much different when you're not in coming out of active addiction. I would love when you're not in coming out of active addiction, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I would love for us to create a program like a week-long program, Like a refresher yeah. Melissa and I have tossed that around, jill and I have talked about that and Deneen and we've all kind of tossed that around. It's just a matter of we just got to, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, our lives are so unstable, coming out because you're, you're going back to whatever is waiting for you outside of here, which, in a lot of cases, is you just made a total mess of things and so you're going back and then, once things stabilize again, you know whether that's what you hope for or not. Either way, whether it's stabilizing, and it's almost like that's the time to re-engage. Okay, you know, I'm not as dysregulated. I'm in a, you know, a stable place, but we definitely need to work towards that. Cause of what you're saying, the brain, like, is just not ready in a lot of ways to a lot of what we do here is just providing a safe place for guys to get away from.
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of what we're doing also is I like to look at it as we're getting that snowball rolling down the hill. We're trying to gain some momentum because, like I said, in 90 days and some of our guys aren't able to do 90 days, some of them are only able to do 30. But if we can get that ball rolling down the hill, we can get some good momentum created there and they have a strong aftercare program back at their. You know where they do live. You know with with therapy, psychiatry.
Speaker 2:You know couples work, um, even an IOP, or you know intense outpatient program, um, you know something something 12 steps you know all, all of the pieces if we can get, if we can get that set up and created, you know, and the spouse is bought in and the family is bought in. I mean that was. I mean I sing your and Jamie's praises all the time with my guys, that you're kind of. You and Jamie are kind of that poster child, that poster for what it looks like for a family to rebuild, because Jamie did such amazing work.
Speaker 2:That's the key. I mean, I use her all the time as an example when I talk to the spouses, and you obviously did the work, kicking and screaming sometimes but, you did the work.
Speaker 3:So many times I'm like no, you can't have your phone back. As a matter of fact, I'm going to take it away for longer, Poor Jen.
Speaker 2:Sweet Jen.
Speaker 3:She's like can you talk to him? He's going to be mad. Yeah, he's going to be mad. I'm like, yeah, I'll talk to him.
Speaker 2:Just tell him to sit the hell down. But it really has to be. You know we're not going to quote, unquote heal anybody in 90 days, right? We can get the process going to healing.
Speaker 1:It's like you're getting to the starting line in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Well, it's really taking that first step in a marathon. You know, in order to complete that marathon, we always have to take that first step. And I mean I know you can probably tell, I've ran a lot of marathons- in my life you couldn't even make it up the hill on that high.
Speaker 1:I couldn't even make it up the freaking hill at one of our outings.
Speaker 3:I'm going to be fighting for that forever.
Speaker 2:But anyway, it really truly is taking that first step of the marathon, because this is not a sprint. Recovery is not a sprint, it truly is a lifelong marathon, from the first day you walk in to Valiant, and in order to be successful there, you have to have the things around you. Whether it's a substance or a process, addiction or whatever, you just have to have the support around you to be able to be successful in your recovery.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, recovery is not an event, it's a process right. So it's a lifelong process. It's not just a one and done right. You have to keep at it. What do they say? They got? You have to. You have to do the work. You got to work it, to work it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. How does it?
Speaker 2:go. It works If you work. It only works if you work working. Yep, I'm done. This is where I'm walking out thinking, and it's process versus perfection, process over perfection, because we're not going to be perfect in our recovery. We can strive to be perfect in our recovery, but it's not going to happen.
Speaker 1:Well, what I love about the alumni calls with the guys on Tuesday is I get more encouraged when I'm experiencing walking with these guys through really tough stuff. Yes, and they're choosing not to use or go to unhealthy coping Because it's like when you said, being a process, it's not about like, okay, I'm going to be in recovery now, life is just going to be great and up to the right and everything else like that. A lot of these guys are going through some of the hardest things they've ever experienced, health-wise or with their family or whatever else. But they're showing up every week and saying, thankfully, I'm not using and I'm okay. And they're still feeling like.
Speaker 1:These guys will shed tears and it's a welcome place. I always tell them their tears are welcome. It's a welcome place to be emotional and that is redefining manhood and being like okay, I feel super sad or I'm really angry or I've got a lot of shame. And what's also true is I don't have to use to, I can just sit in that and I don't have to fix it. I don't need none of the guys try to fix one another. They just like man, thanks for sharing. I feel less alone because of that thing. I feel the same way, like then you're like, oh, then you leave that it could be just an hour zoom call and you leave so fired up like, oh, wait a minute, I can actually deal with what life throws me throws at me.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, and it and it really boils down to being able to connect with those guys, being able to connect with each other. And you know, one of the things I look at our guys all the time and I tell them is you're the strongest men I know. That's true, you are the strongest men I know. The strongest men I know ask for help. Mm-hmm, the weakest men I know want to do it on themselves, do it by themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then struggle and struggle and struggle and here you are, you've asked for help. That is really truly showing what being a man means. Yeah, I know it's kind of a political comment, but toxic masculinity has gotten a bad rap. Well, I look at it as if we're not whatever is bad for us individually. That's toxic right. And if we, as men, were taught that there's two emotions you can be happy or you can be angry? Well, I've seen a feelings wheel in Jill's office and my office and all of our offices. There's a heck of a lot more feelings on there than happy and angry. And we, as men, we're not taught those other ones. We were told that they're not okay. How many of us remember being told you know, or or heard the heard the term. I'll give you something to cry about shake it off shake it off.
Speaker 2:You know, quit being a fill in the blank. Fill in the blank you know, typically a female body part. Right, you know that, that you know that's toxic? Yeah, that's toxic, because not only are we being told not to be like the other gender, but it's also telling us your feelings are wrong. And whenever you're telling somebody their feelings are wrong, wait a second. Yeah, you know, we got to check ourselves.
Speaker 1:Right, we'll sit back in that spiral again. Yeah yeah, we got to check ourselves. Right, we'll sit back in that spiral again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we got to check ourselves as men. If that's not okay to feel, feelings come on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, come on. Well, on that note, I mean, what role do you guys think that shame plays in specifically in process addictions and intimacy disorder, and is that a thing you guys are dealing with a lot with with these guys?
Speaker 3:oh yeah shame spirals and oh yeah, there's plenty of those. So you know you're looking at, you know the, the marriages that you know these men have recognized that they're they're ruining. Maybe they've ruined their lives financially, um, maybe they've not been able to hold down a job. What has this done to their family? How has it impacted their kids? The shame spirals are. They're deep. Right, we see them go pretty deep and you know at the same time, in the same breath, there's a lot of that like denial, that difficulty recognizing, like why their family would even think you know any of this about them, right?
Speaker 1:right.
Speaker 3:Why their wife is so angry, why their wife? Just why they just don't understand. Yeah, um, you know that I said this before, like when, and Dan touched on it. You know, like, if it's an intimacy disorder and we're dealing with, you know, porn, or we're dealing with acting out, um, and we're dealing with, you know, breaking the skin barrier, the wife of that person, and they find out about it. They're asking themselves, like what's wrong with me? Like what did I do? What didn't I do, what couldn't I give you about it? They're asking themselves, like what's wrong with me? Like what did I do? What didn't I do, what couldn't I give you? They're always questioning themselves their ability to care for their spouse. So it kind of puts them in their very own shame spiral because they're not understanding. Right, it's trying to get them to recognize what the difference is between you know, the addiction portion of this, and that there's nothing wrong with them, and you know that their husband isn't. There's nothing wrong with them. Their husband doesn't see it that way. That's hard, right.
Speaker 1:That's so hard for a woman to recognize that I can't imagine how much that would mess with someone's mind. Oh, it's awful.
Speaker 3:Right. So they don't see that Right. So they don't. They don't see that Right, Even if their husband says, like this has nothing to do with you, I didn't do this because of you. Like. I think, you're wonderful, I love you. You're beautiful Like I. I I am in love with you. I want this to work, and the wife loves them too. It's it's still very hard for them to wrap their head around that. That's why so much work needs to be done.
Speaker 3:And there's so much education, like in my group we talk about it. We're trying to understand, like what is addiction? Like what can we look at their past? So we talk a lot about like what was your husband's trauma growing up? Can you recognize kind of about what that looked like for them and can you see patterns that did you recognize them?
Speaker 1:what were your aha moments well, I think even the education happens sometimes way before the emotions follow, and I know that was true. You mentioned jamie earlier and I couldn't agree more as far as her willingness to educate herself around the disease model of addiction, like all that stuff. Like it was like she read all this up and I know she wasn't feeling it yet and maybe even not thinking, but at least she was, you know, learning all the stuff and so it was really. It was actually really helpful, I think she would say, in her journey to kind of dive into the education, part of it even, and then it was like some of the other things caught up a little bit later, but at least she was like oh okay, there's, there's a why behind this, bigger than what I realized yeah, we throw the education at them as soon as we can.
Speaker 3:Then we try to get them in therapy um, this is the significant other, of course. Um, they don't already have a therapist, we try to rope them into therapy. We try to do with the same with the kiddos, like, if there's children, we try to get everybody in. Um, you try to get the same with the kiddos, like, if there's children, we try to get everybody in. We try to get everybody wrapped up in services. That way, you know, we can try to get as much care and like that, just those wraparound services we can possibly get to make sure that everybody's on the same page.
Speaker 3:Because it's a difficult thing, especially when we're dealing with shame. With shame comes, you know, with shame comes anger, because it's fear, right? So now I have an angry wife and I have an angry husband, and that anger is just fear and they're not understanding, right? So I have a wife who doesn't understand, a husband who doesn't understand. That's why we cut communication. And the same goes with gambling. We see that a lot in the gambling part of this. It's because now we're dealing with finances, so we have a whole bunch of shame which then turns into fear. That's anger, like what have you done? So we're trying to again wrap up those services and we take away the technology and then even after a while, when they start getting access to their technology again, it doesn't matter what the process addiction is, even for our SUD guys. We put monitoring on their phone. I watch it a lot, so does case management.
Speaker 3:So I can see where they're at. Everybody still gets their backtrack, so it doesn't matter if you're here for substance or if you're here for gambling or if you're here for intimacy. A lot of these guys, even with those, still have some kind of a cross addiction, right. So we're monitoring what they're doing. We can see what they're doing. We're getting in GAMFIN to help with finances and stuff for our gambling guys, and then we lock everything down on the phone, even when they get it back. Um, you like youtube, you're probably not going to get it. Social media, that's a no for me. Um, so I have everything locked down and that's that's just how this works.
Speaker 1:The wives like that, the guys don't well, it helps build trust it really does with the fear and all that stuff and that's how we.
Speaker 3:We talk right. Like I ask you guys do you want this to work? Let's really work on making this work. If this is really what you want, then you're going to have to give a little bit to get right and, let's be honest, you did this.
Speaker 1:So help me, help you. My kids hate my custodial. I put it on their phone.
Speaker 3:We all have them on our phones still and they're like dad I don't need more screen time, but like nope, nope I'm like here is your 30 minutes of youtube right for the day, I know and I'm the softy that always like, extends the time. I know I shouldn't, but and then I have blocks on it. I'm like here's your 30 minutes, nothing over pg-13 and then it's like jill youtube alert. And I'm like yep, I thought so, and they're like I can't open anything up. I'm 30 minutes, nothing over PG-13. Right, right, right. And then it's like Jill YouTube alert.
Speaker 1:And I'm like yep, I thought so.
Speaker 3:And they're like I can't open anything up.
Speaker 2:I'm like I know it's so hard. I'm so sorry I think it's just funny how, like Sex Addicts Anonymous and Sexaholics Anonymous, they can't get on those websites and we have to be like, oh yeah, we have to unlock those. Oh yeah, they're looking for a meeting. They're looking for a meeting. Mature content.
Speaker 3:Because they typed in the word sex.
Speaker 1:Because they text in sex Just trying to find a meeting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just trying to find a meeting, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:We have a client right now who's in school for nursing and I get alerts constantly because he's like researching stuff from school and it's like so-and-so, looked up this and I'm like what? Oh, it's ligaments. I'm like I got it, I got it.
Speaker 1:Or anatomy, and I'm like hey, jr, can you unlock this certain thing? It was like he probably got exhausted, like man just chill, but yeah, well, all right. So last question, because I know we, we care about the families we care about a lot of people that are listening to our podcasts or watching are the loved ones of addicts, and so help us identify what are some potential red flags, some some areas of caution, if they're thinking, hey, maybe I have a loved one who is dealing with a process addiction.
Speaker 3:Those are hard right.
Speaker 1:Like you don't see them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean gambling.
Speaker 3:You could probably see cause. You're going to notice finances, right, unless you have. If you have shared accounts, you might see it. If you have separate accounts you may not notice it as fast. Like intimacy disorder is hard, like it's not something you can see. It's not like you where you just see it Right. But there are going to be things right. Like you're going to notice maybe they're not around as much or there's always an excuse or they're missing things or the lies they're going to lie. You're going to catch them in something right. They're not going to be telling the truth about something and there's probably going to be some kind of a cross addiction associated with it that maybe they picked up something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so there's going to be an increase to something that you're recognizing and maybe some shame associated with it, that maybe they picked up something. Yeah, so there's going to be an increase to something that you're recognizing and maybe some shame associated with that. So you're going to recognize that. So some like withdrawal from them. Yeah, not being honest with the kids. Maybe they're a little bit more bitier than they were before, so they're not like themselves.
Speaker 1:Do you ever tell the loved ones to listen to their gut or?
Speaker 2:is that a bad idea?
Speaker 1:Okay, that is a good idea, because so many times I've heard people say oh, I actually felt something was off.
Speaker 3:Yeah and that's the thing. So I'm like when did you feel like something was wrong? And then, when you confronted them, how did they react?
Speaker 2:That reaction is going to tell you a whole lot. If they're gaslighting you them, how did they react? That reaction is going to tell you a whole lot. If they're gaslighting you, oh yeah, but gaslighting is a whole thing involved in all this.
Speaker 3:And then you know you can like there's never a time for a woman to be an investigator, right, and you don't want your wife to be your investigator, but chances are like that's usually what strikes it right. They start looking into things, right, like where were you? Like what does the phone bill say? What do the finances say? That's usually how things get picked up or caught. And if you have, like adult children or older teenage kids they're smart, they'll probably follow you and find you, yeah, and the people close to you and find you yeah.
Speaker 1:And the people close to you just usually have a hunch Like something's not quite right, they know yeah.
Speaker 3:And someone will write you out Like there's probably somebody that you told, although sometimes these guys keep it completely hidden in a secret, so maybe they haven't told a soul.
Speaker 1:Master of disguise.
Speaker 3:Yep, and that happens a lot. So sometimes these guys finally just get tired of hiding and come out. I don't know dan, what are your, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I hit it addicts.
Speaker 2:Addicts wear so many masks. Um, you know, if, if, if you know, follow, follow your gut in things, things. You know I've said this to Jill before and if we would put all of the unsolved cases, all the cold cases, in front of a betrayed partner, they would be able to solve those unsolved crimes. If we told them that at the end of finding that unsolved crime, you get to know the answers to your husband's infidelity, they would be solved in three days. There's nobody that is a better detective than a betrayed partner.
Speaker 3:Oh, and it's not serving them, and it's not serving them.
Speaker 2:That's the problem. It ends up causing them even more harm and more trauma, causing them even more harm and more trauma. So anytime we talk with those spouses it's like, okay, you're going to have this want to be the detective, don't do it, do not do it.
Speaker 3:Unlink the iPad, unlink the Mac. You don't need it linked you don't want it. Turn it off, don't get in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you have to start doing your work also Right. So when you find that link to the infidelity, the gambling, whatever addiction it is, having those hard conversations are really hard, you know. So having people that support, you know, support that person, that other person, and having people there to support you to talk to that other person, doing it in a neutral setting, is really important to not doing it in your home. You know know, in the, in the bedroom or in the kitchen or somewhere at your own house is is really hard because it's not a neutral place for for either of you.
Speaker 2:Um, having those hard conversations you both need support yeah you know, um, you know, I guess that's why they do interventions and how they do it. You know how they do interventions and how they do it. You know how they do interventions and I think that's so, so important, so that the addict can't feel attacked. They have to feel loved and they're going to feel attacked and they're not going to feel loved.
Speaker 3:It's hard to love somebody when you're so upset.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's hard to love somebody when you're so scared.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And that's another side of it right Like they need to feel that love and they need to feel that care, and sometimes that comes across so sideways when somebody's so mad.
Speaker 1:Right, so scared.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm, so confused, right, right, and when an addict is so defensive and so on edge and so resistant.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why that time apart sometimes is so helpful.
Speaker 2:Well, most of the time the spouse I mean. If there's one consistent I hear from a spouse in my phone calls with them, it's. I feel like our entire life has been a lie. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wrestling with that big time.
Speaker 2:I probably hear that I bet 95% of the spouses I talk to that's what I hear every. Wednesday my life has been a lie and there's some truth in that, but there's a lot of untruth in that as well.
Speaker 2:It wasn't all a lie. It wasn't all a lie. No, there are pieces of it. Yes, that were lies and there was a lot of pieces that were not. Yeah, and being able to see that then from that 30,000-foot view of okay, but in order to see it from that 30,000-foot view, they have to become healthy. Everybody has to become healthy.
Speaker 1:It takes time Doing their own work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it takes time, it takes support, it takes, you know, the spouse getting to therapy groups and to support groups and to you know all, you know Jill's group and having people that they can talk to to be able to relate to. You know, the worst thing I think a spouse can do is think they can do it on their own. As soon as they think they're going to do it on their own, they too are in trouble, because the only way recovery can truly work is you know, I was telling this to a guy the other day is is anybody I hear that says I got, I got it, they're, they're done, they're done. But if they I got it, they're done, they're done. But if they say we got it, okay, you're good, You're going to be okay, we got it Because they're going to be surrounding themselves with people and support. And I feel the same way with a spouse. If she's going to say I got this, she's in trouble. But if they say we got this, all right you're going to be okay.
Speaker 1:You're going to be okay.
Speaker 2:Whether the marriage survives or the relationship survives or not, you're going to be okay.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. Well, y'allall thanks for doing this. I know you got a bunch of crazy jokers like me downstairs, probably waiting outside your door for you, but full house right now.
Speaker 3:I love it. We are, we are pretty full. That's great, that's great.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for the work you do and sharing on this and it's a big deal and definitely changing lives like mine.
Speaker 3:So I'm grateful, super excited for tonight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I got a great alumni meeting tonight, one of our guys coming in sharing his story. Yeah, finally got him in. Yeah, you gave me his name a long time ago, but he's got a good few years of sobriety now. So that'll be fun. He's a good guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He's a real good guy. All right, y'all Thanks. Thank you. Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast, and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
