Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
The Power of Group Therapy: Scott Davis, Chief Clinical Officer
What if the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety, but connection? Scott Davis, Chief Clinical Officer at Valiant Living, opens up about this profound truth and much more in our latest episode, sharing wisdom gained from years of guiding men through recovery.
With vulnerable honesty, Scott addresses how we can find peace during tumultuous times by seeking authentic connection rather than isolation. "The best thing you can do is limit your social media," he advises, suggesting instead that we reach for human connection that transcends political divisions and touches something deeper – our shared humanity.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as Scott reveals the transformative power of group therapy. For many men entering recovery, the thought of sharing their deepest struggles in a group setting triggers intense fear. Yet Scott demonstrates how this very vulnerability creates the healing environment so many desperately need. "If it's in your head, it's a dangerous place," he explains, highlighting how bringing thoughts into the open – whether through writing or sharing with trusted others – creates clarity and relief.
Perhaps most powerful is Scott's exploration of shame, which he calls "terminally shameful" rather than "terminally unique." The shame that makes us feel fundamentally flawed and isolated becomes, ironically, the very thing that can connect us when shared in a safe group setting. "When somebody shares their pain with you, it is a sacred thing," Scott reflects, describing the "tragic beauty" of witnessing others' vulnerability and recognizing our shared struggles.
Scott also unpacks how individual therapy works alongside group therapy at Valiant, preparing clients to bring their deepest wounds into a community where deeper healing happens. Even conflict within groups becomes an opportunity for growth, often reflecting unresolved family-of-origin issues that can finally be addressed in a supportive environment.
Listen now to experience this profound conversation about connection, vulnerability, and the courage to be seen. Whether you're struggling personally or supporting someone who is, Scott's wisdom offers hope that healing is possible when we brave the journey together.
Well, hey everyone, welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. Well, scott Davis on the Valiant Living Podcast. Welcome, my friend. Good to be here.
Speaker 1:Good to be here, Drew. I've been looking forward to this, so thank you for inviting me on.
Speaker 2:Me too, Me too. So you are the Chief Clinical Officer at Valiant Living. Now that's a big fancy title.
Speaker 1:It is a big fancy title. Often I'm like what people ask me well, what does that actually mean? And I'm like well, what it means is I'm I'm over the clinical product. So when you're looking at at Valiant Living as a, as a whole, we whole, we have therapists, and then we have curriculums and we have all these things that we go into helping our patient and helping our clients, and so what we do is that, or what I do is actually I am working to make sure that all those fit together and that we can actually help people in a way that really is beneficial for their life, so that everything that we do is on target, is on task, is focused, so that our therapists can be their best and that we can provide the best information out there for our patients, so that they can get well and get healed and and move on with their lives.
Speaker 2:I love that man. I want to. I want to dive into a little bit of your story. I feel really, really, um, fortunate to be on a team with you. You bring a lot of experience you bring. You've got a great background in this space. I want to dive into your story. I want to talk a little bit about what therapy, what the clinical approach, looks like at Valiant, and I want to talk specifically about group therapy too, because I got to be in a group that you led recently.
Speaker 2:But right at the top of the episode, before we jump into that, when this episode releases, our country is going to still be in a bit of just turmoil and sadness. There's just been a lot of things happening in the news. Of course, charlie Kirk shooting is going to still feel really fresh to us when this comes out. But there's other things. There's school shooting there in Evergreen that had just happened, and there's other things that may not be getting as much headlines, but there's just a lot of pain and um, suffering and anger, a lot of big feelings coming up right now. Um, I don't even really know how to, how to phrase this question or if I'm just being selfish and trying to take advantage of some free therapy right now. But what's going on in you and how can you kind of encourage us right now? How do we show up in the world when there's all this, all this going on?
Speaker 1:Well, I was thinking about, I've thought a lot about this because I mean, you know, the, the, everything that's going on in the recent couple of weeks. I mean it's all been very scary and you know, even myself I've had a lot of fear, and people that know me know that I really don't like fear at all. I really don't like to run with that and go down those roads and go down those roads and uh, but it, it causes a lot of fear and especially the reaction to the, the incidents and and everything that's going on is is we live in a time that's very tumultuous and and kind of scary, and if you look on social media it gets a little more scary and uh, uh. So one I I say, you know, the best thing you can do is limit your social media, is, limit the information that is not coming through reputable sources, and limit going down rabbit holes and limit going to places that are unhealthy and and because I really believe that a lot of what we deal with in our lives is not necessarily about a substance or or um, or a issue of uh, fear or the things that that are going on in our lives, as much as we are tending to lack a lot of connection, and I'm like, really, the only way to really move through that fear and to actually find a place where you can feel peace is with connection of others, and I don't mean just people that agree with me or agree with my points of view, but also that can reach me on a human level. And that is also somewhat what I like about group therapy in general and what I like about working as a therapist is that I get to connect with people on a daily basis and I get to hear their fears and we connect with their story and I feel connection with their story. And when we do that, what we find is this place where we can find the calm. And so what I would say is, like, you know, connect with everybody you can in a way that is not about what's going on politically, but what actually ties us together as being humans and being people on this earth is, you know, looking for those places that we can actually agree upon rather than those places that we disagree upon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the other thing I would say is this world could use a little bit more love, and I always say the minimum of love is respect. It's like if we are showing love, then in a lot of ways we are showing respect to those people and I, and and that that means everyone. So I would say try as best we can to remember that the minimum of love is respect, and to respect others and their opinions. The last thing I would say is take care of yourself and be brave. I think a lot of times that keeps us from reaching out and asking for help is that idea that we're going to be looked upon in an unfavorable way, and I'm like we all need help, and so to be brave and ask for help these days is something that's needed. So that's what I would say during this time is like as much as possible, reach out to those that care about you, reach out to those that know you, reach out to those that you need to know and want to know that's so good, scott.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, gosh, that was worth the whole podcast, that segment right there. No, seriously, it's really really helpful. No, seriously, it's really really helpful. And one last thing I'll say and just I'd love to hear your thoughts is I just notice in me, when things like this happen, my emotions, they tend to come out so sideways kids, or with my wife, or with a work situation or something and I'm like that's not really what's going on in me, that's what's coming out. But when I, when I pause and do the things you just say, find real connection, true connection, I'm like you know what? There's other things swirling inside of me that I don't know what to do with, and so I'm noticing it. Just it's sideways emotions, have you? Do you come across that quite a bit, or is that?
Speaker 1:That's, I think, for the. That's one of the more human experiences that everybody has is that I have stuff in my head that even I as a therapist go wow, that's really unhealthy. I'm like, what am I, where am I going and what am I doing with this? And letting it kind of take me on a ride. And what I say to that is that if it's in my head, then it's a dangerous place. But what.
Speaker 1:I know is if I can get it out and if I can talk to people that I trust, or even if I can just write it down. And a lot of times when I'm working with patients or clients, I say you know what, if it's in your head, it's a dangerous place. It's like write it down, get it down on some paper, because then if it's on paper, I can read it and I can say, oh well, that's a distorted thought, or that's a place where I ought to be talking to somebody, or wow, I really just need to throw that in the trash because that is just some really distorted thought. And so even for me, it's like, when I get to that place where it feels so overwhelming, I'm like if I just sit in a quiet place and just get it out of my head and write it down sit in a quiet place and just get it out of my head and write it down I'm like it just, it just makes my day so much better and gives me such clarity of thought.
Speaker 1:Um, because my, you know, it's like uh, we just can't control our thoughts. We, we can't control the fear, we can't. You know, the thoughts come in and and there really just feels like it's just overwhelming and I'm like we just have to get that out of our head. So, you know, it's that that's the place where you want to talk to people and you want to write, write as much as possible and get it out of your head and then allow yourself to go through it and really look at what's true and what's not. Yeah, because a lot of things in my head I go, wow, that is not true at all. That is, you know it's like. And then I have to ask myself do I have a food in the refrigerator, clothes on my back and a space over my head? And I'm like, if I've got those three, then I've got more than most people right A lot of people.
Speaker 1:And and I'm, and I can be safe in that.
Speaker 2:It's such a good perspective. Well, it it. It leads on a little bit into what I, what we, wanted to talk about. It's almost like we planned it this way, but we, we, we didn't. We just hit record because, well, I think, when you're you're talking about you're, you're talking about connection, you're talking about having other people around.
Speaker 2:You know, I think if someone is confiding in me or they're talking to me, it's, it's sometimes difficult for me to like. I want to kind of codependently manage and fix whatever they're saying. But as you're talking just now, scott, I'm thinking, well, if, if being in the head is is the dangerous place and I'm giving someone a safe place just to get it out of their head, then me just listening, without a solution, is actually giving them what they need in that, in that moment. And just being that person and a lot of times that's what I need too is like hey, I you know, cause you've know, because you hear yourself. Well, I just don't know what to say, I don't know what to do. I'm like, well, just be, be with someone, give them a place to get it out of their head, and you're serving them well in that moment, without having to like because my mind will be going like what do I say, how do I fix it, how do I help, how do whatever?
Speaker 1:And just to like take a breath and say I can just be with this person and that might just be the perfect solution for what they need. That's the greatest gift that you can give a person. I think for most of us and I see this in my own life, I see it in the people that I've treated is that we all in some way feel like we're not heard or seen, in some way feel like we're not heard or seen and to allow somebody to be heard and be seen, what a gift, uh, what a blessing.
Speaker 1:And and I think that in a lot of ways, it's like I, as a therapist and I even tell this to young therapists when I'm working with them I say, you know, the best thing you can do is, if you have nothing to say, just listen more is, if you have nothing to say, just listen more. It's like if you listen long enough and you listen hard enough, I'm like the words will come, the words that you need to say and the places you need to intervene will come. Because I'm like, really, that's really where we all can connect is that most of us don't feel heard or seen. And I'm like, really, that's really what you're giving a person. And when we're doing, you know we're talking about group therapy a lot and and I said you know that's the gift of group therapy is like you know, I'm not just seen by one or heard by one person.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm seen and heard by the whole group and they give me feedback. Even if they don't say anything, they're looking at me, I can tell that they're listening and I also can tell when they relate to my story and that's the gift is like if I'm sitting in a group of men and one of the men says, oh, I can totally relate with what you're saying, and that's my story. And then I'm like not only do I feel heard, but now I feel seen and I can connect to that, and now me and that person are connected. And that is the beauty of group therapy in general is that I can make connection with many men and I can feel that connection as I'm talking and as they're giving me feedback, and there can be a lot of healing in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's why I wanted to talk about it, cause I will. When I came to Valiant, I'll be honest, I was really scared about the group therapy part, and when I realized that a good majority of the therapy I was going to be doing was going to be in a group setting, that freaked me out. And I wasn't at that point I't really have, I wasn't resistant to it. I just let's just say I wasn't looking forward to that part of it. Um, I thought, man, I'm gonna go to this place, I'm gonna get a lot of individual therapy, which does happen, right, um, it didn't happen for me, um, but a lot of it was processing in groups and going through that stuff. And so I just imagine there's there's people that are would be listening or watching this right now, either family members or maybe you know someone who's looking at coming through Valiant and and is might be nervous.
Speaker 2:Group therapy has been so transformative for me. I mean, I've talked about in group therapy and the deepest, darkest places in me. It was so comforting to know that I wasn't alone. Like, hey, right, there's other, like the stuff that I'm most ashamed of. There was other men saying, man, I've done that, I've thought that I've been there and I'm like, wow, so I'm not, I'm not as nearly as well. I still feel like there, there just was a camaraderie in the brokenness. I'm like, hey, I'm not, I'm not a freak show, I'm not the only one feeling this, this stuff, and so and I'll shut up and let you talk here in just a second but I just experienced you.
Speaker 2:We were on an alumni retreat and you graciously came and gave some of your time to sit down with some of us alumni guys and you led a group session, a process group, and and when I, when you, agreed to come on the podcast, I was like I'd love to kind of dissect a little bit what I experienced, because not to flatter you, but it's always fun for me to see someone doing the thing, or at least one of the things, that they were put on the planet to do, like you're clearly gifted in navigating a room of men, especially addicts. And so here's where I would start with you, scott. This really stood out to me when we made our introductions and you introduced yourself, you, and I hope it's okay to share this we'll edit it out if you say it's not but, um, you opened up with expressing fear or desire to being liked. And you told us you were nervous and and just told us a few things. And here I am, you know, and and we, we've been working together for just a short time, but I wouldn't say I know you all that well, you know.
Speaker 2:But so you, you show up and the first thing you do is lay it all out there and I'm like, wow, that was that was kind of extreme, like cause. I'm looking at you like here's the expert coming to lead us and he says, man, you're, I'm really, I'm really. I forget exactly what you said, but I'm really nervous being here with you guys today and I want to be liked by you. Can you, would you be willing to share? Was that a? Was that a technique? Was that a strategy? Was that a, what, what? Why would you start a?
Speaker 1:group therapy session that way, scott, uh, well, I mean part of it, part of it. One I will say is like I was really trained by some really good group practitioners. Um and uh one, uh one. He was uh, you know he'd been doing it for for like 25 years and he said, and he said really, he's like why?
Speaker 1:The reason why I introduced myself in this way is because I want them to know that I'm one of them, that that that I'm not sitting here up high and and and saying that you know I have all the answers, and that really stuck with me and so I do the same thing is like, well, one I want you to know it's like I'm one of you.
Speaker 1:I'm not. There is no standard of perfection here, and, of course, the other part is that from him I also learned that it's a great privilege to sit among men and to be able to talk about the issues of of being a man and uh, and the things that are scarce and the things that we're proud of and the things that we're shamed of, and so one is like by introducing myself and kind of saying like here's my story, here's my here's where I come from, there's also a certain amount of like oh yeah, he's, he's one of us, he's not perfect, he's not sitting out there saying I have all the answers and then with that it also recognizes that my feedback also may be about you. But every bit of that feedback is also about me as well and where I come from and my experience and my pain and my hurt and the feelings that I have. So you have to take that with that in what it's given is like. Every bit of feedback is about me.
Speaker 1:And I think that's also part of the group process is that we have to have the realization that whatever comes out of my mouth is about me and whatever comes out of your mouth is about you. And so therefore it's like well, if I hear that, then I can also one take that and go. Well, I don't have to get defensive about it, because I know that that feedback's about you.
Speaker 1:But I also know that I can also take it because it's your truth and you're also trying to help me. I can take it because you have an experience that is similar to mine and and that there's no standard of perfection and it really makes the group process more intimate and, um, where we really can feel that there's not just intention there, but also that we can find that connection and we can actually feel that that the facilitator me as the facilitator is actually, yeah, one of you, rather than just, uh, some guy that comes in and has supposed to have this fancy title. I'm like, no, I'm, I'm right there with you and I'm and.
Speaker 2:I definitely have my struggles just as much as anyone else. Yeah, it definitely leveled the playing field, for sure. I mean, I was like, okay, and you know whether this was your goal or not. It definitely made us like you even more.
Speaker 1:I think the biggest thing is that you know and I remember and I was, of course, I was thinking as you were talking. I was thinking about, you know, high school, and I was like I had this jacket that I wore in high school, uh, all the time, because I thought it was cool and because I thought people would like me because of that. And I'm like, um, and we all have those things that we do to kind of fit into a crowd and and, and we all want to be liked to a crowd and and, and we all want to be liked, and just to acknowledge that of like, yeah, I'm nervous about coming in because you guys know each other and I don't know you and you don't know me, and and I'm like, well, let's just talk, let's just start it off with the truth. I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm feeling like I did when I was in high school and I didn't fit in.
Speaker 1:And you know it's like and that's a shared experience we all in some ways feel like man, I just don't fit in, there's something, I'm different, I'm unusual, there's something wrong with me. And if that's the beginning, if that's leveling the playing field, then from there it's like well, we can build on it. Yeah, we can, we can, we can say it's like no, wait a minute, we all belong, right, we all belong to be here and we all have our pain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, um, one thing you did is this is kind of coming back to me you had us. One of the first things you did is you had us talk about if we were, if we were, a pair of shoes I'm probably messing this up what, what pair of shoes would be and why, based on how we were feeling in that moment, like how we were showing up. Yeah and I'll, it's, it's just crazy and it's like it's brilliant, because I'll remember it. I remember you were the, the boots you were wearing, because you said you feel I feel comfortable, I feel confident in these. I wear these boots because I like them and I feel good when I'm in, like and and I'm I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of going down this rabbit hole because we have a lot of therapists and CSATs and professionals that listen to our podcast as well and I want them to hear this because I think it's really great. You know tactic, um, but it it got us being being creative, but it got us talking about our feelings in a way that wasn't it for guys. At least we could talk about. You know, are we jordan? Are we pair of jordans? Are we? Uh, you know, I, I think I was a, a running shoe and a in a uh, because I was like I'm really comfortable right now, that's right, my mind is racing, I've got. I got a different shoe on a different foot, but it helped me kind of frame like where I was showing up in that moment.
Speaker 2:Um, so my question is, when you're leading a group and we'll get into group therapy for the guys, I want to get into that, but for our practitioners that are listening out there your approach to leading that group you know what's what's going on give us behind the scenes, you know. So you did the shoe thing. You also did one moment where there was a gentleman in the group that you, you kind of you brought him in. It looked like he was kind of emotionally leaving and you took a few minutes. You never lost control of the group. You never made it about this one person, but you, you brought him in closer, you were very present to what was going on in the moment and you were pivoting and adjusting as you went is what I noticed.
Speaker 1:So talk through your clinical approach to leading a group. Well, it's funny, the shoe thing. The shoe thing is like well, we all wear shoes and and and. So it's like I was really looking for like, well, let's just start it off with a connecting point of like we all wear shoes, but what if our shoes, what if we gave them meaning, and and and that's kind of what I was looking for is like well, if we give it meaning, well, then it takes on some, it takes on a new life and it takes on something different. And really that's what you're looking for when you're doing group therapy. Is this idea of, like, everything that comes out of somebody's mouth and what they're saying, it means something, but what does it mean? And trying to assess what the meaning is. Trying to assess what the meaning is. And with the man that I was working with I, you know it's like he what I saw for him is that it's that every word that he said was backing him out of the group just a little bit further.
Speaker 1:And and if he could have been out, if he could have been out, if he could have got, if there was a door open and he could have gotten outside and still been and still talk, he would have done that because he just was so much in pain that it was almost like he was saying well, don't look at me.
Speaker 1:It's like I want to be heard but at the same time I don't want you guys to see me and I don't want to be noticed. And as much as it was, it's like, oh, I'm not a part. And so I just kept on looking at what his words really mean and his actions and I was kind of noticing his body language and it just seemed like, wow, you, you really just need you know, the group wasn't at a place where we could stop and say, let's just give this guy a hug. And I'm like and at some point that did happen, which I was it was a beautiful thing to watch all the guys give him a hug and talk to him a bit, and I had my arm around him too, because he just was trying to get out of the room, and but in that moment it's like, well, we're not going to stop the group to give him a hug, but I'm like, well, let's do it in a figurative way.
Speaker 1:And so that figurative way was to bring him further into the group and to acknowledge him and say, no, I see you buddy, I see you back there hurting, I see you kind of wrapped up in your shame. And let us you kind of wrapped up in your shame and let us just, let us just kind of bring you into the group and love you a little bit and and you can feel that that group around you and and see what that does for you and really what it did for him is that his, he, he straightened up.
Speaker 1:He sat up a little bit, a little bit straighter, and his posture changed even.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and he was and he was sharing. He shared in every bit of what we were doing. And, um, even at the end, it's like the guys were telling him how much they connected with what he was saying and you could see it really feeding his esteem and feeding that hurt place in him and feeling like he could feel that connection. And, yeah, it was really beautiful. And that's what I love about the group work in general is that you can have that moment of like.
Speaker 1:It's not just me connecting with that man, it's like, no, the whole group was really like no, no, let's bring him in, let's give him a, let's give him a uh, a figurative group hug and let him know that we care about him and want to hear what he's got to say and also also, uh, challenging some of that shame that he was having and challenging some of those distorted thinking that he was having and saying, no, no, buddy, you're, you're, you're not, you're not as far off as you think you are. You're here asking for help and I go, you're at a place where you can find some healing and we're going to help you. We're not going to let you go. We got your back and and, uh, that's when the group work just gets really beautiful. It's just letting kind of that moment happen, but also orchestrating a way that the group can really bring them in, rather than just seeing him out there and kind of getting backing out further and further out of the group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was really special to witness and be a part of, and I didn't feel, I didn't feel in that moment like I was missing out on anything because we were taking time for him. It felt like the way you did it, we we just felt a part of it, all of a part of it. And then, you know, you carefully made sure that it it wasn't, you gave it the time it needed and then you helped, moved on, you even helped him move on to some things. You were kind of lovingly direct in some ways, like had to, like you know, be stern a couple of times. I maybe that's not even the right word, but there was a couple of moments where you had to like help, course, correct him, which the people pleaser in me really respected. That you did that, cause that's that would be tough. I mean at that point, like you've leveled the playing field. But you're also like you never left the leadership seat either. So it was just really I could turn this whole episode into a clinic on how to lead groups.
Speaker 1:But Well, I thought, I thought in the moment what what was happening is? He was, you know, and and really he was kind of getting bogged down in his shame. Yeah, and when we see somebody getting bogged down in their shame, as a therapist, my first reaction is like no, no, we've got to stop you because you're just going further, further down. And the further down you go in your shame, the harder it is to kind of lift you up and get you out of there.
Speaker 1:Right and not much. You know, I said this in the group. I said, you know, I said this. I said this in the group. I said, you know, shame worked, man. We would all be healed.
Speaker 1:So I'm like so when it comes to shame, I'm very directive and like, oh, we've got to shut that down, you know, because that's a very unhealthy place, and and so it's like I wanted to make sure he realized that, and I even had to take him aside after that and say, look, I wasn't shutting you down because you were talking you know, because that was his first thought is he goes oh, I'm just talking and I'm rambling and I'm all this.
Speaker 2:No, no, nobody, that's not what I, that's not why I stopped you.
Speaker 1:It's like I stopped you because you were digging a hole with that shame that was going to be really hard to get you out of, and so I'm like so, when it comes to things that are unhealthy and you're in a group, what I would say to all therapists I would say, look, is when you see that it's like, your first thought is like be directive, let's stop that. Let's stop that, not to shut you down and not hear what you have to say, but let's make sure that it's in a place where, in a way, you can feel healing and help and that shame doesn't become more entrenched. What I was trying to do with him is is really get him out of his shame place, uh, and kind of get him out of that hole and really and really have him, have him to really acknowledged by the guys, because I know every guy in there and I too could feel that shame his shame, but also my own shame going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, you are right, I uh man um, because that's really what shame does to us. It really just pushes us down, yeah, and and everybody in that room not only him, but I was like me, me and two was kind of just feeling the weight of that shame his shame and also my own, pushing me down and I'm like wait a minute, we've got to get out of this.
Speaker 1:Yes, so's like let's bring him into the group and let's start looking at at at some of those positive aspects of him and and let him really be heard and listened to for what's really on his heart and what he needs help with, rather than just like, oh, I'm a bad, I'm an awful person, I'm a bad person. Right, which is where he was going.
Speaker 2:So so good. Well, talk to that guy that that might be listening or watching right now, who was like me, who's intimidated, who's like man. The last thing I want to do is get into a group or open up in front of a bunch of strangers, and some of it might be a little redundant you should already shared a little bit. But if you're getting, if you had an opportunity to sit down with someone like me, pre-valiant, what would you say?
Speaker 1:You know, um, I think it goes for, uh, when talking with I've talked with couples about this, I've talked with other men about this no-transcript and what our biggest fear is that we'll look like a fool. We'll, we'll look, and I'm like, and if you never open your mouth and you never let it, let it get a little messy, because I think that's what we're really scared of.
Speaker 1:it's like, oh, it's going to get messy in here and then, and then I'm going to mess it all up, right and I'm like no, but if you don't actually allow it some things to be said and you don't actually allow your heart to be shared, it's like you're not going to receive that healing. And I'm like it's so. It's so um healing to know that I'm not the only mess in the room. You know, it's like I mean once, once you start sharing your mess and this guy says oh God, I'm a mess too, and and this and this other guy says, oh yeah, I'm right there with you and, and, and you feel this camaraderie.
Speaker 1:It's like, oh, wait a minute, Maybe we're all a mess together.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, yeah, but we can no-transcript that I am we're really not going to see receive that healing right and we're really not going to receive that connection because ultimately, none of us have it. All of us are a bit of a mess from time to time and you know, I'm more convinced about this than anything is that we need each other said and I say this myself, you know, and I've seen this on the TED Talk is the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, the opposite of addiction is connection, and I believe that more and more every day is that the way that we get healed is in relationship.
Speaker 1:And the way that we get healed is in connection and, you know, even when we're talking about trauma, that really teaches us to isolate and teaches us that people are not trustworthy and that they're dangerous and that we need to stay away from them.
Speaker 1:What I find interesting is that the way that we heal our trauma I'm sorry, the way that we heal our trauma is really by facing it in relationship and really working through it in relationship and cause. I can, you know, we can do all the fancy techniques of EMDR and somatic experience and all those things IFS and all these things that we do and those help us along. But really one of the best ways that we can look at healing that trauma is to do it in the company of people and because it really goes to that point of the lesson that we learned from trauma is that people are dangerous and I'm like, yeah, they can be, but also they can also be healing and they can also be helpful. Also, they can also be healing and they can also be helpful and they can also be loving. And when we find those people and put those people in our lives, then trauma can be healed and it can be healed in a way that is that's really speaks to my soul.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so. So then, why, at Valiant, do we do? Why do we do group therapy and individual therapy? So what's the relationship between the two? Why do we do both? Why is that important? What's your philosophy on that?
Speaker 1:Well, I think one encourages the other. So when we're talking about individual therapy, there are things that are shared in an individual session that I would feel scared about talking about in a group session. Okay, and so part of that individual session is geared towards actually getting me to start talking about this in the group. Okay, and that's the way we look at individuals.
Speaker 1:And that's the way we look at individuals, like there are sometimes the trauma is so intense and things are so intense with that situation that we have to really and there's such resistance around us that we actually have to work through it in an individual session so that the person can start talking about it. Without that group session, I'm really not going to find that connection between each man or the men in that room that really can also heal that trauma in a way that it's not going to rule my life anymore anymore. And so it's like the both, both of them should kind of work with each other instead of being in some type of like uh, resistance against each other. It's like one is one is good, but I'm like both is the best, yeah, and I'm like so we can do work in both sessions or in both realms that actually help to the whole of the person and that's really what you're looking for.
Speaker 2:Why do you think that so many men specifically carry this shame and this fear into group therapy and how do you think we can help guys break that cycle?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's. You know, the thing that shame teaches us is that we are awful. We're awful, and I've had it summed up in so many different ways. You know, guys will say you know, I'm a piece of garbage or there's something wrong with me, or I'm unlovable, and they say these things. And that's what shame teaches us. It teaches us that, basically, you should go hide in a closet and you should never come out. And so, really, because that's the lesson of shame, when we bring it into a group and we start talking about that shame, that's what makes it so powerful. As I say, man, I feel like I should just lock myself in a closet somewhere because I'm so bad.
Speaker 1:And this guy says oh my God, I was thinking the same thing. And then he shares his story and I go wait a minute, his story is my story. It's like, well, wait a minute, he's here and he's valuable. And he says that and he's saying he's worth something, and I have the same story with him. Well, maybe I'm worth something, maybe I'm valuable, and that's the way.
Speaker 1:This, it's the beautiful thing that happens in group. Um, and that can happen no other place in group. It's like me, as a therapist, an individual session can tell you dude, you are valuable, you are, you know, I, I. But you go, wait a minute. I'm paying you to say that, uh, and I've had them say that before.
Speaker 1:It's like, wait a minute, don't I pay you to say that I'm like, well, not really, but you do pay me to to kind of tell you the truth, and and. But in group it's like those guys aren't being paid, they're just like me, and I'm like, well, wait a minute. If they think I'm valuable, then maybe I am, and it's such a beautiful thing. And I'm like and we don't have to hide, you know, we think we have to hide our shame. Yeah, because that's the lesson that shame teaches us, right. And I'm like well, we can share it in a group of men and we can share it in a group period. We find that, no, wait a minute, no, I'm, I'm just like this guy and this guy's just like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm like there, and then there's healing yeah, I the first.
Speaker 2:Well, the whole time that I was at valiant, but especially the first couple weeks. A lot of us guys are coming in there and we're just like. We just feel like we've messed everything up and it's like the first. Oh yeah, the first exercise that the team at valiant is walking us through is trying to debunk all the shame, all like just to be able to get to the work. And I remember go ahead. Were you gonna say something to that?
Speaker 2:no, no, no, go ahead no yeah no, we had one guy that came in and I was probably in a couple months by by by then, and the therapist that was running the group session, he was just overcome with shame and he just felt like he was and he's like. I don't know these guys' story there, but I can guarantee you that you know, what I've done is worse than anybody in this room, and how I feel is where, whatever, and and the therapist that was leading the session just so masterfully walked him through. Well, you know, tell me, you know, if you're willing to share what, what are some of the things he's like? Well, you shared, and then he would. He looked around and says anybody, just by showing his, anybody else in the room, relate to that at all. Every hand goes up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he ran tell me something else.
Speaker 2:What's another thing that you feel like really alone and literally there wasn't one thing that this gentleman was feeling that the rest of us guys weren't at some level experiencing.
Speaker 2:You know, now our stories are nuanced and different, but the heart, like the below the surface of it, every single one of us, on every single topic, there wasn't one where he was doing something, dealing with something, feeling something that we didn't all feel and you could just watch in that moment, like just his defense mechanisms just lowering and realizing oh wait, a minute, I'm with my people and it kind of I say all the time, it kind of ruins you for the rest of like my people.
Speaker 2:Now, even when I come back and visit Valiant, I love being with the guy, my people. Now, even when I come back and visit Valiant, I love being with the guy. Like I just want to be with people who are just radically honest because I realized, man, that's the place where I breathe the deepest, I'm safe here, like I don't have to pretend or perform or you know, it's just, it's just so, it's just it's a gift that we give ourselves in these group therapy sessions and the only reason why I'm telling my experience is. I hope you know a family member or a guy is listening that will give it a shot, because it's so on the other side of it there's so much healing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, now you know, and it's funny, it's like you know, we always hear this word in the rooms terminal uniqueness, you know, and we hear that word and really I'm like that's not really an accurate word. The real word is more terminally shameful.
Speaker 1:And because I'm like my shame. It's always that idea like my shame separates me from the rest of the world and says you know, you're just a horrible person and that's why you should be kept away from the rest of the world and, at the same time, really what's true is that. No, that's what actually connects me to the world is that I feel shame, you feel shame, we all feel shame. You feel shame, we all feel shame and that seems to run through our stories because of our past and the situations that we've had and trauma that we've had. Is that shame really, while it isolates us and makes us feel like there's something wrong with us and that we're the only person Like the rest of the world is all good, like there's nothing wrong with the rest of the world?
Speaker 1:it's just me it's like the truth is is that? No, the rest of the world feels like, yeah, there's something wrong with me, right, and that's where we can all connect and and and that's like you know, when we were, when we were doing that group work, um, a couple weekends ago, it's like I was like that was one thing that kind of settled me down. I'm like, you know, I'm in a group full of men, that that the one thing that I share that's true.
Speaker 1:That's true about me and true about them is that we all feel shame is that uh is that we all have that experience of being, uh, not just terminally unique, but terminally in shame uh not just terminally unique, but terminally in shame and uh, yeah, yeah, and shame is a funny thing, it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It's like, um, I can think of myself in a very confident way and I can be, uh, you know, I can consider myself, um, uh, like, I have some good talking points and I'm smart, and you can think of all these things that I can affirm myself with and I'm like, but, man, if I jump on something with shame and I'm right back where I used to be Right, and I'm right back in that hole and uh, and really, it's. That's what I find amazing about the shame, and and and it is not just a unique experience, it is a shared experience.
Speaker 2:We all feel that way, so true, All right, A couple more questions here, Scott and I'll I'll. I'll let you go. I'm really grateful for you giving us time man.
Speaker 1:It's incredible. I love talking about this stuff.
Speaker 2:I do too, man. I could talk to you all day about it, and I really mean that, and we haven't even got to your story yet. I guess I'll put it in the notes. You've done some cool stuff. Well, maybe you'll come back and we can dive more into your story.
Speaker 1:But a couple more questions.
Speaker 2:I want to hear about conflict and feedback in group settings Because, as much as there is a lot of attunement and comfort and safety, there's also a lot of people that come from different backgrounds and different points of view and different things and you can get triggered in a group and some therapists I've heard even say that they're okay with that. They they almost incur like, hey, this is a place to get triggered and work it out, and not that they're provoking it, but some kind of are okay with a trigger here or there and getting not explosive, but getting there's some, there's conflict that happens. Could you speak to that? How does that dynamic play out in groups?
Speaker 1:Well, I, you know, I will say that I always say this idea of like everything is about everything, and so if you're having conflict in a group, typically it's because we've hit some type of trauma or we've hit some type of familiar place in you, and so your conflict isn't necessarily with the guy in front of you. That conflict is probably from your past and now it's just been brought up to you. And I also think that's the magic of group is like, um, if you have family of origin issues, I'm like well, what, the best thing that we can do is put you in a group where you're going to find your mother, your brother, your sister or your or your first grade teacher uh, you know, whatever the case may be and I'm like but you're going to find a person in that group that you're going to have a conflict with and I'm like, and this may be the first time that actually somebody has worked with you and walked with you through that conflict so that you can find out where it came from, where it originated from, and that you can actually see, wait a minute, I can actually work through a conflict and we not in the relationship, because that's our biggest fear in conflict is that we're going to end relationship, so we, we push it away, we keep it away. I'm like, uh, there's nothing more irritating and if you can ask my wife, this is like that irritates me in a show when you find, when you see those, those main characters miss each other, they don't connect and the reason why they don't connect is because they're like, oh, we're going to be in conflict if we do and I'm like, but then they miss all this good stuff. That happens Because conflict isn't necessarily about disagreement.
Speaker 1:As much as it's about wait a minute about disagreement. As much as it about wait a minute. It's like we can actually work this out and we can say I have this issue and this issue, but wait a minute, I still love you and I still care about you and it was important to me to know what was really on your mind and was really going on with you and let me love you through that. I'm like so there's some really awesome things that happen out of this idea of conflict, and you know we have a lot of communication exercises and a lot of our communication exercises are based on this idea of conflict within the group. It's like wait a minute if I can get you where you feel you can express it and you feel heard, then the other guys will also understand where you're coming from and then maybe we have a chance of healing this inner wound that you have, that you carry around, that puts you in such conflict with people, and then the conflict is not necessarily a conflict resolution, it's actually a carefrontation.
Speaker 1:Is, if you will, is this idea of like, wait a minute, I'm caring about you and I'm actually going to listen to what your conflict is and me and you are going to work this out? And, um, you know, I was doing some family work, uh, when I was there at Valiant, uh, right before the right before we did the conference, and was working with a couple and what I found is that there was such fear in talking about what was actually the conflict. Was that a lot of the feelings that were arising were really about just avoiding the conflict, not actually about the conflict. And then, when we got the conflict out there, or the hidden feelings out there, the person was like, oh my God, I feel so glad that you would share that.
Speaker 1:I knew there was something wrong, but I kept on thinking it was like because I wasn't doing enough, or because I was doing this wrong, or I always felt like there was some sort of um something wrong with me and that and that that's what was what was in the room and it really was just you trying to to keep from having me have feelings, or you were worried about me and I'm like now that I know that you're it's just you having feelings I'm like I really want to hear those feelings. I want to hear what the problem is, because we can work on this yeah and and and.
Speaker 1:Like I say, it's like sometimes it's got to get.
Speaker 2:It's got to get a little messy before we can actually clean it up and uh yeah, so that's sometimes where the magic once the mess is out there yeah, we can we can, we can clean it up yeah, exactly yeah it's, and it takes on so many different forms because there's even times where we get to kind of role play in a group where someone will walk us through like, hey, I need you to be my dad right now, and then it's like you know, and it's good to know that you have a process for that too, because you actually have to. Is it called D-roll? Is that the word I'm thinking of, or is there another word D-roll?
Speaker 1:is what you do afterwards. Afterwards, right, you're actually talking about some we call it gestalt work, which is this idea of bringing the person into the room and so you can actually have somebody come into the room that represents that person, and then we can actually kind of work through some conflict with that person.
Speaker 2:It's intense because some I mean, I've been screamed at and yelled at with like and I'm like, and then afterwards it's like I'm not your dad, I'm Drew, I love you, for you, and then we hug it out. But in that moment it's like's, like, but gosh it's. It feels sacred to be a part of those. It is moments to be invited into.
Speaker 1:those moments, man, it's like so cool yeah, and you and you heard me say at the end of the group, I said this was my privilege and honor to be here because, right, it is privileged to, to be a part of this work that we do, and it's a privilege to be able to hear somebody's truth and it must be in a lot of ways, you know, I think that's also the beauty of group is that everybody feels a sacredness around it.
Speaker 1:It's like, even when we say, it's like whatever's said here stays here. And I'm like, and the reason why it is because this is sacred work, this is spiritual work, this is uh, and I always call it the good work is that we can actually be heard and seen and acknowledged and we can share our pain. And when somebody shares their pain with you, it is a sacred thing. And um and um I I call it the, um, the other. The other thing that I hear is like um, it's the, the, the tragic beauty of it all is like um, it's, it's tragedy, and yet at the same time, there's there's the beauty of the connection that we all find in it.
Speaker 1:It's like because we all know that hurt and that pain and that pain really connects us, and it's through that connection we can find some healing. So it is sacred work.
Speaker 2:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
