Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
"Parallel Recovery" for Families of Addicts with Brooke Donohue
The moment a loved one enters addiction treatment, a parallel journey begins for the entire family. In this eye-opening conversation, Brooke—family group facilitator at Valiant Living—shares wisdom gained from both professional expertise and personal experience with addiction's devastating impact on families.
Brooke introduces the powerful concept of "parallel recovery," explaining how both the person with addiction and their family members need healing—but must travel their own paths. "Parallel recovery is this idea that we both need healing, but we don't heal side by side," she explains, using the metaphor of two cyclists riding next to each other. When one person tries to control the other's handlebars, both crash. Her message is clear: we must learn to support without trying to fix.
Drawing from her own journey as someone who lost multiple family members to addiction—including her ex-husband and sister-in-law—and parented a son through substance use disorder, Brooke speaks with rare authenticity about the rage, guilt, and codependency that often characterize family responses to addiction. She vulnerably shares how she transformed from "an ostrich with her head in the sand" to finding her voice through anger, and eventually through boundaries and compassion.
For family members feeling forgotten while their loved one receives treatment, Brooke offers practical guidance on managing codependency, setting healthy boundaries, and beginning their own healing journey. She explains how education about addiction creates space for compassion, and how finding your voice can begin with something as simple as saying "no" to making dinner.
Whether you're a spouse, parent, sibling, or friend of someone struggling with addiction, this conversation offers hope that healing is possible. As Brooke reminds us: "You are not alone. I see you, I hear you, I am you, and let's start to heal."
Well, Brooke, thanks so much for being on the Valiant Living Podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. I'm honored to have an opportunity to speak with you and be on this podcast. I've listened to quite a few of them. It's one of my favorites.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Thanks for listening. I I told you I was a little bit embarrassed that it's taken me this long to have you on because you're you're such an amazing part of the work that's being done there at Valiant. And Dr. MD, who's there now, said, Why don't you have Brooke on? And I was just like, Oh my gosh, yes. How I've I'm I miss usually you and I talking when we're dealing with technical difficulties with Zoom. So now it's nice to actually have a real conversation when nothing's broken.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, it is. It is. No, no worries. You know what? Um, Valiant is such a busy place, and there's so many different levels to what's going on in there. Um, and you know, I don't I'm not in the building like you are, right? So we tend to not see each other every day and interact every day. And sometimes uh that yeah doesn't bode well for us, right? It's in this sense. Yeah so nope, well, we're here now.
SPEAKER_00:That's what we're here now, that's what matters. And I I will say, and this is not to flatter you, I really genuinely mean this. I think you're one of the unsung heroes of the work that gets done at Valiant, and I'll tell you why. Because you're you're getting to work with the families, the spouses, the parents, the brothers, the sisters. And man, there is so much important work, and this is what we'll talk about today. But man, when when we, you know, addicts go into recovery, sometimes the the people left behind can feel so forgotten and lonely, and there's so much wounding and healing, and you get to be just kind of on the ground floor of helping in some of the darkest moments of their of their life. Tell talk a little bit about what you do at Valiant, and then we'll I uh we've got some direction of what we want to talk about here, but just give us some context of of how you serve the organization.
SPEAKER_02:Of course. Thank you for those kind words. It means a lot to me. Um, so my goal, my role within Valiant is uh to facilitate the family group. Um I speak fluent 12-step and I also speak fluent harm reduction. Um, and what I have found is that when you're able to meet people where they are, um, and that means again, riding both of those waves, you're really able to connect with people on another level. Because again, as you know, we're all in different places when our person enters the treatment. Um, so again, my my family group is um based on the harm reduction approach. Um, however, I do heavily lean on the 12-step ways as well, because that is what Valiant teaches their men. And so it's really important for me to educate the family members of what their husbands or their brothers, sons, whoever are learning as well. So that way, when they come back together, they're speaking the same language, so to say. Because these gentlemen are learning a whole nother way of talking, speaking, being. Um, and if their family members are not aligned with that, then then we've got again two different languages happening in the home. And I mean, if you've ever been a friend or in in contact with somebody and there's been a language barrier, you know how terribly wrong it can go. That's right. Um, yeah. So again, so my my my role is kind of a family advocate. Um, I work directly with the families. I never meet the gentlemen. Um, I do get to know them through the families, though. So I do feel like I know some of them.
SPEAKER_00:Um in our defense, you you're learning their side of who we are, okay? Like we Yeah, no, I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_03:This idea was stories.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, right. Or three sides, as they say. You know, it's like the truth is no, you're you're great at making sure the family members feel heard and seen, but also advocating for us as well. Like, no, they're they're really in here doing their work, you know.
SPEAKER_02:So yes, that's another thing, right? A lot of times I get, you know, I get um people on all ends of the spectrum in terms of their feelings, right? Um, some people are like, oh, he's in there living his best life, and you know, he's enjoying this vacation. Um, and I do have to bring them back down at times. Like this, this seemed like a vacation, but they're they're getting poked. They're going, they're doing really hard inner work, um, which again allows me to really encourage them to do the hard work also, because I find some people they don't they almost don't want to do the work because they're angry, because their their person is enjoying themselves, right? They're going camping, they're doing all these things, and so on, you know the intricacies of the program, it does seem like it's just one big happy vacation.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Especially when they're when they're a lot of times left at home to you know pick up the pieces, carry extra weight, you know. And I I'm I'm speaking specifically about spouses, but it can be true in, you know, and also like the family's kind of left in shambles. We're whisked off to this place of safety, and and yeah, there's and we do uh amazing things at Valiant and we have a great wellness program, all the things, but there's so much intentionality around the work that's being done in these. It's not just like, hey, let's go on a let's go fly fishing today for fun. It's like, no, there's so much work that's being done, and you wouldn't know that if you didn't have that context.
SPEAKER_01:And then some of us, us guys don't help when we're you know calling or texting home and I had the best day today, meanwhile, she's got two babies on her hip and her just got done with work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, I think now, and I could be wrong about this, but uh when when I went through, they put me on a digital detox, and it was the I hated it and it was the best thing for me. It probably either saved my relationships with my family or definitely kept from further harm. And I think now they do more of that because those first 30 to 45 days, you're just well, you said it, we're learning a new language, we're learning how to it's like learning to walk again, learning a whole new way of life, learning how to show up different, and and also we're still dealing with shame and we're wanting them to know we're we're working, we're doing better. And so we just I'll say I. We I won't say we, but I was saying things trying to help and making it much, much worse. And so I'm grateful to have people like you who are helping guide us through uh really kind of tricky waters. It's very difficult.
SPEAKER_02:You're absolutely right, because what we find is the men are so they get to this point where they're excited to share what they've been going through, and they're in this what we call pink cloud. And you know, a lot of the wives, they're not they're not into hearing that. They they almost are angry because they're having such a good time because, as we said, they're at home dealing with all the the reality of the situation, but there's also that that codependent piece that we want to always work at or look at. Um, so that digital detox is really good because even though we're angry at them, we do still want to know a lot of things. It almost feeds us, right? Uh-huh. And so that whole dependent piece, sometimes we do need that space because you know, we've been overfunctioning for so long that we don't know any other way. And we even we continue to overfunction while they're in treatment. So that means what did you do today? Well, what did you talk about today? Well, what did that sound like? And did you tell them about what you did, right? Like we get into that mode can be very uh counterproductive.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and and uh you said this the other day on the on the phone we were talking, and it really made a whole lot of sense to me because if if we can kind of in a healthy way detach for that season, especially like in at least in my case, I think a lot of you know betrayed partners or family of addicts and all this kind of stuff. There's for so long they've been kind of forced to codependently manage this addict's behavior up and down, all this kind of stuff, right? And again, if I'm not the expert you are, so if I say anything, just say time out. That's not how actually how it works. But I'm noticing this that you know, these things, these things happen, and and and this is kind of what we want to talk about, is it it short circuits a little bit. Or let me put it as a question does it short circuit the healing process that has to happen for that individual who has their own work and trauma and healing? And it's like, okay, I get that you're concerned about this other person, but maybe give yourself the gift of taking this time for yourself to see where where are the wounds, where the like you're dealing with that quite a bit, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Um it makes me think of all right, so I have a child that struggles with addiction, and um, his addiction began in his in adolescence. And when we he entered in his first treatment center, um, he was 16, I believe. And one of the rules was that they were not allowed to date, they weren't allowed to be in relationships. Okay. And I I that's common for individuals that are in early sobriety as well. Well, we don't always have the luxury of dealing with single men. We've got men that are married and have families in Valiant. But the the premise that it still applies, correct? Because what we find is that our the first, the priority is not the recovery or the sobriety, but the priority is the wife, the partner, the girlfriend, what have you. So when we when we are dealing with this enmeshment, this this very close, maybe codependent relationship, there's so much going on where you know she's looking to manage the way he recovers and he's looking to manage the way she receives his recovery, we've got it gets very sticky. Um and it's the process because what we're looking at is we're not we don't have two people that are set setting their sights forward. We have two people that are looking at each other demanding these expectations from one another. And I don't know about you, but when we start expecting and demanding things from other people, we end up getting disappointed quite a bit. Um, and a lot of these expectations can't even be met, quite frankly. Right. So the digital detox and really being able to pull away and realize, hey, you know what? I have been putting this other person first. And this goes on both parts, men and women, right? I have been putting this other person first in many ways. And it has become very unhealthy. And in order to realize that, there does need to be a level of separation. And I'm not saying, you know, physical separation, divorce or anything. I'm saying let's not talk, let's not text, let's not do the things, let's allow each other to find ourselves again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, that's so powerful. Well, before we jump into more of this, because I could just go into the the deep end of the pool and all this stuff. I want to I want to hear a little bit about you and your story, what you're willing to share. How did how did you get to this point in your life where you're you're spending time in the trenches with families like mine helping us? Yeah, how did how did you get to to this moment in your personal history?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I'll tell you this much. It it didn't come easy. All right. My life was not painted, I did not follow a yellow brick road to the end of the rainbow. Okay. That's what I didn't do.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so I come to find out, I come from a very long line of of alcoholics.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I have lost many, many families, family members to addiction of one kind or another. Um, and I didn't really understand that. I just knew people kept dying around me, people that I loved. But I didn't, oh, I didn't know from what. Um, so when I was my first husband, I married very young. Um, I think I was 17 when um we were married and started having babies. Um, and this gentleman, you know, we we drank. We drank socially. It's what we did. It was part of our lifestyle. Um, we went to the movies, we drank, we went out to dinner, we drank. It was just what it was. Um as our relationship progressed, so did the drinking. And then substances started getting in the picture. Um, and so we spent a lot of our lives using and drinking together. Um, and it was lots of fun until it wasn't, right?
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And uh I started really the the the relationship became very toxic, so toxic that um the abuse began, um, um many different levels of abuse. And it it got to the point where I needed to step away because um I I needed self-preservation. I needed to save myself. I realized that I was going, I was following him down the hole, right? Um, I was following him down the drain. We talk a lot about people circling the drain. He was drain, his addiction was so bad. I would, I would wake up in the middle of the night and he would be gone. And I'd have to find him. So again, I was going crazy. So I stepped away from the marriage. While we were separated, um, his lifestyle continued. Um, and it it was it was difficult. I had three children and he was nowhere to be found. Um, he was here, there, and everywhere. Meanwhile, my brother and his wife, they were in active addiction and uh she passed from her um alcoholism. And it was extremely detrimental to myself, my brother, our whole family. Um, and that was kind of really what opened my eyes. I was like, wow, can alcohol kill somebody? Because please understand, I was desensitized to this lifestyle. This lifestyle was normal. Um, somebody who was an alcoholic was just in my mind, they were somebody that couldn't handle their alcohol. They needed to learn how to drink better.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Know their limits, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so I was constantly judging people, which was another reason why I stepped away from my marriage because I was like, this guy is crazy. He doesn't know how to drink. Like, what are we doing here? Um, so in any case, my sister-in-law passed. And then shortly after that, my ex-husband passed. Um, my then 15-year-old son found him unresponsive in the home. Um, and at that point, my 15-year-old son had started showing signs of addiction as well. Um, his father and him um would would bond over places. Um, and so they lived together while I lived separately. And um, when my ex-husband was found, um, my child had again come home to live with me. Um, and that was really difficult.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I can't imagine.
SPEAKER_02:At that point, um, I had started to change my ways. Um, I I realized that this lifestyle I was living was toxic. I wasn't going anywhere. It was unhealthy and I needed to make a change. You know, um we were known as um the we were known as the not so savory people on the block.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Okay. We had a reputation. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:We had a reputation. Um, and I was getting, I was noticing this, and I was just becoming aware that I I was living life in a very ugly way. So again, I started changing my ways. So when my ex-husband passed and my son came to live with us, my son was in full-blown addiction. And um I still thought it was a phase. I was like, oh, it's a phase. He's 16. Most 16-year-olds do this, we'll be fine. We buried his father. Um, it was a traumatic experience, and my son continued to use, and and it got worse and worse until it got to a point where um I started waking up in the middle of the night and he would be missing as well.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:Um he would I would find him in jails, I would find him in hospitals. Um, nine times out of ten, the Juvie Hall would call and say, Hey, we've got your mom again. Um so it was a really difficult thing for me to completely acknowledge that he had an addiction. I wanted it to so badly to believe it was just a phase he was going through. But during all of that, I had found myself a new uh a new husband who also was an alcoholic, except this one was in recovery.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:And so he was um really good at helping me see the things that I did not see yet. Um and he told me, I think, I think your boy has an an is an alcoholic, Brooke. And um, I got really offended and I said, You don't know us, like leave us alone.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So, so I I put my son in his first treatment when he was 16 years old. And um, I was losing my mind. I'll be honest with you. I had lost my sister-in-law, I had lost grandparents, uncles, I had lost an ex-husband. All I kept thinking was, I cannot lose my boy. I cannot lose my boy. And I was so afraid that everything that I did, every decision I made was based out of fear because I was so afraid to lose him. And I was I was bananas. There's really no other way to put it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's uh it's it's hard to imagine, you know, especially as a parent, you know, all those other, you know, people that you're close to, but man, when it's your child, it's that's like another level of intensity. And so how did you kind of how did you work through that? Because you had that enlightening moment. I'm so glad, and thanks for telling the story, by the way, because I think a lot of people are gonna find themselves in it because I don't know if you call it denial or whatever, but so many like and I was in that boat where I didn't know as an addict for probably the better part of 20 years, you know, it's like you just you've got other ways of reframing it, and then you have this aha moment, and you're like, oh, wait a minute, there's something I need to look at here. How did that go for you from going from living in this, and these are my words, not yours, but uh in a state of kind of denial or reframing these things to like, oh man, there's something I need to look at here, not just for the people around me, but for myself.
unknown:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I love that you asked that because I spent some time thinking about my my journey, if you will. Um, and you know, it it started when I walked away from my ex-husband. Um, I knew something had to change. I just didn't know what it was because again, I didn't understand alcoholism, I didn't understand addiction. Um, but I knew that my life was, I was not living my life right. So I started reading books on Buddhism. Um, I just needed a way because see, I had become a control freak. I was controlling everybody in my life or attempting to. Sure, sure. And in reality, I had no control over anything. So I started kind of reading on Buddhism and looking at it, and I thought, okay, this is something I can I can get with this way of thinking. Uh so I started the mantras, right? I had a lot of um affirmations that I would say every morning. Um, and that that's what I like to call my infancy stage of healing. I had just done it. Um, and I stayed in that space and I practiced Buddhism and affirmations and meditation and praying and doing those sorts of spiritual practices for a while until my son entered his first treatment. And then I was forced to go into a parent meeting. Um, and I was very upset by that because I was like, I'm not the one that's sick. I'm fine.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:It's he's sick. So do me a favor, fix him and let me know when you're done, and I'll come and pick him back up.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02:That obviously didn't work. So in my when I was attending these 12-step programs, or I mean this 12-step parent group, I started really listening to what was being said. And for the first time in since I met my ex-husband in 15 years, I was able to speak my truth to a group of people who didn't judge. Um, they didn't call me names, they didn't look at me in a certain type of way, but rather they circled around me after the meeting and they hugged me.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:And I was extremely uncomfortable. I was like, what do these people want from me? Oh my gosh, why are they touching me?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right, right. It's so weird. It's bizarre when you first experience because I mean, so much of our world is doesn't get it. They don't understand that kind of support and honesty. And so it's weird at first.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But I'm gonna tell you, Drew, it was the most freeing moment of my life because I found like all my chaos, all the most embarrassing stories, all the most vulnerable things, all the things I couldn't even tell my own mother, I was able to tell these total strangers. And it just really opened, it unlocked something inside of me. Um, and I just, I'm a researcher. I'm I'm insatiable. When I had when there's a topic that I want to learn about, I I go. I will spend days researching something. And addiction was that I needed to know how to fix my baby because I still didn't know that I couldn't fix him. I still was on this mission to fix my baby. I was not gonna lose my baby. So I threw myself into all things addiction, uh, books, podcasts. Um, I started going, I started getting, I got a sponsor, started working the 12 steps, I started Al-Anon. Um, I did all the things, and there wasn't anybody to really guide me. Um I was on my own. I found my own way. I educated myself. I picked myself up when I couldn't get out of bed. Um, and when it came time for me to begin sponsoring others, I promised myself that I would be there for anybody who was in the same space that I was because I I had to figure it out on my own. And I just didn't want anybody else to go through what I went through. I wanted to shine the light. I wanted to be that lighthouse for them. Like there is a way. I let me ask you, let me show you one of the ways that you might be able to reach a level of peace and serenity. Um, so it became really important. So I started um volunteering in the community. Um, I started a sponsoring parents. Um, then I was sponsoring wives for a little bit. Um, and then I was fortunate enough to make a career out of it. And that's where we are too.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and it's so amazing. And I love that part of your story, like kind of how you get into it. And I think there's probably a lot of family members that feel this too, is you do start out with the intention of how do I fix this person? And then at some point in the journey, you realize, oh, wait a minute, there's things I need to look at and I need to heal from and I need to own. And I think it's just a beautiful part of the journey that even if you start with a different intention, that part of this program and part of living in recovery has a really sweet way of guiding you to where you need to be to like work on the things you need to work on. And I'm I'd imagine you would experience that a lot in your group, where you know, I'm curious, how do people show up to these groups, these family members? Like what what kind of state are they in, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all that kind of stuff when you first kind of receive them?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Oh boy, um, you know, I get I get all different emotions from one end of the spectrum to the other. Um, but I will say the two feelings that I see the most is either anger or guilt. So when we talk about emotionally, it's they're either very angry or they're very guilty, depending on the the the story. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:In terms of mentally, they're fearful. Every single one of them is full of fear and they're making decisions based off fear and they're they're just moving through this world fearfully. Um, you know, and when we look at them relationally, I see, I see baggage. I see baggage from every relationship that they've ever had in their lives, from their parents to their friends to boyfriend's past, to husband's past, to friends, to cousins. It it all builds who we are. And so we have this baggage, this trauma, this history, whatever you want to label it, and then we have a huge lack of boundaries.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, the boundaries. You mentioned something this week to me, and I've never heard this concept before. And I was I want to spend a little bit of time here, and I think we'll get into the boundaries and all this different things we're talking about. But you you said the words parallel recovery. I'm new, I'm three years into recovery, so I still feel like the infant baby stumbling around, you know, making messes and trying to repair quickly.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but what what is parallel recovery? What does that look like? How can you unpack that idea?
SPEAKER_02:I would love to. Um, okay, parallel recovery is um essentially addiction has impacted our lives. It has impacted me and it has affected me differently than it has in fact affected you.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:But we both need to heal from this. Um, I like to say that both of us are in recovery from the effects of alcoholism. And again, those effects look differently to the both of us, which means our recovery, our healing is going to look different as well. So when I'm in healing, when I'm in recovery and you're in recovery, it should look like this, right? We should be next to each other. Sometimes you're up here and I'm back here. Sometimes I'm up here, you know, right? We're maybe we're not always right next to each other, but we are parallel nonetheless. We are walking side by side with one another and holding for one another. Because when we start to get into our lane, the other person's lanes, yes, we start to create trouble. So, parallel recovery is this idea that we both need healing, but we don't heal together. We heal side by side. I have um, I have a story I want to tell. I love this story, and I'm gonna be quick about it because I know we don't have too much time, but I got to squeeze this in. Um, I have a very good friend whose son was in recovery, and um he said, I'm gonna take my son camping um because we've got to spend time together. You know, we've I've got to get him out of this city and all the drugs and all that. So they go camping. Dad has this idea of what this camping trip is gonna look like. It's gonna be amazing. They're gonna sing, they're gonna roast weenies and marshmallows. He brings mountain bikes up. It's gonna be great. So they're riding on the mountain bike because the son is on the phone the whole time. So dad's getting annoyed. Dad says, Let's get on, let's get on the bike, let's go on a bike ride. So they're riding on the bikes, and dad is looking around and he's like, Oh, the beauty, the majesty. And then he looks at the sun, and the son's got one hand on the handlebars and the other hand with his phone. So dad's mad because his son is not experiencing this moment the way he expected him to. So dad starts fussing, kid starts fussing, dad takes a hold of kids' handlebars because dad is insistent that you will do this my way. Son fighting, son saying, No, leave me alone, I'm fine. And what happens? They both end up on the ground, full of cuts, full of bruises, full of mud, and they're angry at each other, blaming one another. And that is how I view parallel recovery.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:On each other on our own bicycles, man. You touch my handlebars, and we're both going down. So right. So trust me, trust that I know what I need to do. Maybe it's not your way, but this is my experience, and it's important you honor that.
SPEAKER_00:I want to go back to something you said a minute ago, because in that story, thanks for telling it, because I that does give a great mental imagery of what recovery can be. And one thing you just said, and again, it's kind of an aha moment for me. I've not looked at it this way, but you said we're both in recovery from the effects of alcohol. And put whatever else in the blank of alcohol, whatever your addiction of choice is, right? What I love about that is I I think it can often feel, at least from that the addict standpoint, like, hey, you're broken, you're in recovery because of that, like the acting out of whatever it was. The way you reframed it is this was something that was, this is how it made me feel. And correct me when you said it. This was something that that happened to both of us. The effects of the alcoholism, the effects of you know, workaholism, sex a holism, you just fill in the gap, whatever it is. And it helps it go from you're in recovery because you have the problem, to we're both in the recovery because we both have been affected by this other thing. It's not about the person as much wounding the other person, although that's happened, right? We can't deny that it's happened. But it's there's this other external outside thing that we both have been affected by that we're both in recovery from. I think someone really needed to hear that today, because that is a really beautiful way. Well, maybe I shouldn't use the word beautiful. It's just a really helpful way to look at addiction. Like we're both in recovery, because I would imagine you would experience this quite a bit. You know, people come into the groups that say, Hey, I'm just trying to survive in this context, his problem. So it's his problem. I'm trying to solve it, survive it. How do you how do you gently reframe that in the context of your group? Because, like you said, you can't someone can't come to your group and you say, Well, actually, you know, you it's like there's a tenderness there of being safe, but also how do you gently reframe to like it's not just the addict that has the problem? This is we've all been impacted by yeah, good question.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I always start off with education. I I need everybody to be as educated on addiction as possible, the neuroscience behind addiction, right? Because what we get is we get a lot of family members that are like, why doesn't he just stop? This person down the street, Joe, he's in recovery, he did it, how come mine can't, right? There's that. Uh-huh. So I always want to educate them first because what happens is when we can educate somebody, then we they get to understand it. And when we can understand what we're working with, then they're we can tap into that compassion. Um, because everybody comes in differently, right? We've got the overwhelmed wife or parents, and then we've got the angry wife or parents. And so it really is about meeting them where they're at, educating them, helping them find that compassion. Because then what comes next is the respect. Because a lot of relationships are there's no more respect anymore because there's been so much damage done.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:So reframing it in terms of look, this nobody wakes up and decides I'm gonna blow up my wife, my my life, my marriage, job. I just I want to, this is what I envision my life to. Nobody says that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So it's an insidious thing that takes a hold of people, and it is so important to separate the addiction from the person, but we cannot do that without the education.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. That's so that's so good. And I'm just reflecting back with a lot of gratitude because one thing that Valiant helped my wife do was exactly that like help her understand just kind of the disease model of addiction and what was going on in my brain, and even the, you know, our disclosure process, everything was was aimed, or one of the aims of it was to help her and educate her on what bigger thing was going on, you know, because the other side of it too, and I would love to ask you about this, is you probably have ones that come and say this is all his fault, but I would imagine there's also people that come in and say, This is all my fault. Like I must be the problem here. I, you know, there's something different I could have done, I could have prevented this if I would have just, you know, and they're taking on, you know, because I think you said earlier there's the anger that comes out, but there's also that that shame, like, man, this is on me. I've caused this. Similarly, how do you help them find the balance and the clarity and the truth? All the stuff that they need in the middle of grieving and trauma. And I mean, it's so complicated.
SPEAKER_02:It's heavy, it's heavy work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:With the angry side, when I'm dealing with the angry, the angry family members, um, I really just I really just start with how can we bring the respect back?
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Because anger doesn't allow a lot of room for respect. We are, we are, we are, we are angry, we are condemned. Uh, what's what's the word I'm looking for? We're talking to them with contempt, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like condescending almost. Was that the word you're gonna say? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, that's what we're looking for, that's what I was looking for. We're condescending with them, we're treating them like they don't know what they're doing. We've essentially taken away some of their autonomy, even. So really start with again, finding the respect. Um, and that comes by way of education and understanding and all that good stuff. Um, and if they cannot even offer respect, then what I say is, okay, well, what can you offer that isn't mean and hurtful? And sometimes that's just nothing at all. If if the nicest thing that you can do is say nothing at all to this person, then let's start there.
SPEAKER_00:That's great.
SPEAKER_02:Right? Like baby steps because some of these people see, I was the angry one, I was the one who was screaming, throwing, cussing, threatening. You know, I was that person, and I remember I couldn't, the only thing I could do was just sit there.
SPEAKER_00:And that's enough. At that moment, that's enough.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, it's enough. It's enough because then what happens is we take that anger and then I I encourage people to release it other ways. Um, exercise, walk, find a support group, find some way to allow it out, but not on them, right? So then we have to talk about the outlet. So it's acceptable, it's the only thing we can do. And then we grow, it's baby steps, and we take little steps from there, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:Now, with the other end of the spectrum, the the guilty family member, the one that's filled with shame, thinking that there's something they shoulda, coulda, woulda done. Um, I really try to start with the three C's from Alaman. Um, you didn't pause it, you can't control it, and you sure can't cure it. And that obviously comes with more education, right? Um, and rather than finding compassion for him, we find compassion for self. Okay. So, so the angry people, we got to find compassion for them, but for the guilty, the shameful family members, we got to start finding compassion for self because what we do is we own their behavior. We own the drinking, we own the drunk driving, we own it all. And and we're punishing ourselves. So rather than again working on compassion for them, we work on compassion for self. And we start to again talk to, I start to teach them the education piece. There's there's I don't know if you're a fan of Looney Tunes, but there is a I haven't watched it as much in recent years, but yeah, at one point in my life I was a fan. Okay, so there's this Looney Tunes, and I always think about this because see, the guilt, the shame, the this us as family members. There's this um character on Looney Tunes, and he's um he's an abominable snowman, and he finds Daffy Duck and he thinks Daffy Duck is a pink rabbit. And he says, I will love you and I will squeeze you and I will pet you. And he's squeezing the crap out of Daffy. And Daffy's saying, I'm not a rabbit. Let me down. I'm not a rabbit. And the abominable snowman is like, I love rabbits and I will love him and I will squeeze him, I will name you George. And Daffy starts screaming, I'm not a rabbit. And the abominable snowman gets angry at him for not being a rabbit and then starts to beat him. Wow, I feel like that was me and a lot of angry people. We will love you and you will like it. And if you don't allow us to love you in the way that we want to love you, yeah, we're gonna punish you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's it's it's really tricky. So, again, really kind of identifying what our love looks like is so important because a lot of us think that we are loving this person when in reality our version of love is really unhealthy and toxic.
SPEAKER_00:You know what's coming up for me as you're sharing this? It's so interesting that in this parallel recovery that you're talking about, that both parties at the same time, if they're doing their own work, are doing very similar things.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:They are they are learning to love themselves enough to know how to show up. Because as you're sitting here talking about, like, this is exactly what Valiant did with me the first few, like it was how do you like release yourself from like one line that really stuck with me is like, Drew, this this wasn't your fault, but is your responsibility. They're helping me understand, like, there are things that have happened in your life that led you to these behaviors, and like that it's all about like releasing the toxic shame and releasing the and just learning to love yourself again and forgive yourself and all this things. And then I'm sitting here hearing you say the path for the the wounded and the family and the parents and the brother, like learning to love, what do you need? Learning to love yourself and self-compassion. And it's I don't know, it's I'm just I'm finding that very interesting that for both parties, if you will, the entry is very similar into what we have to do to even get to any kind of relational reconciliation. And you know, let's face it, you were talking about this. Sometimes relational reconciliation is not the answer. It's not that we're always saying the the only win is is reconciliation. Sometimes it is better to go our you know our separate ways for sure. Um, but when at a possible, when there are two people that are willing to do their own work and are showing up honest and healthy and all these different things, the the chances and the the what I said, the percentages of being able to like even if it doesn't work out relationally, but to be able to work through it together are so much higher. And it starts with loving myself enough to forgive myself for that's so interesting to me. I love that.
SPEAKER_02:Good. I'm glad because here's what happens, and and I always try to frame it this way because this is what I have learned from myself. Our person has an addiction to fill in the blank, substance, sex, gambling, people, whatever. I as a family member, I have an addiction to people. My addiction is to controlling, managing their lifestyle, their emotions. That is my addiction. My addiction is to people. I must get in there, I must fix, I must, you, I must teach them how to do it my way, because my way is the best. I must control them, I must teach them how they're supposed to talk, think, all the things. So when your revelation that you just had about how it's so similar, the recovery paths, it's because we too are sick with an addiction in our own right. It's just our substance is people. Because I'll tell you this much, my codependency went from my husband to my child really quick.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I've said it before in the podcast, but Jill Gallegos told me early on when I was not identifying with other people's addictions in treatment. And when I was going through that, you know, I'm not like the rest of these guys. Mode. I probably every podcast I say this because it hit me so profoundly. She said, You smoke people. People are the thing that you smoke, they're the thing that you use and abuse. And I was like, oh man, she really, she really got me there. And it makes me, and I'm taking a little right turn on you here, but I want to talk boundaries because I'm gonna I'm gonna call you out a little bit in a good way here because you said that people, but you're also in a profession now where your your job is helping people, right? So I'm sitting here thinking, well, that's not so bad. Like you're bringing a lot of light and good to the world. I'm I'm glad that you know, people, but I also know this little bit about you. You have boundaries because when I was telling even saying, hey, I'm gonna email you something, you're like, hey, I don't check my email on this day and that day, but tomorrow I happen to, so if you email me, I'll get it. And I made a little mental note. I'm like, wait a minute, that feels like a boundary to maybe even protect yourself from overhelping. Now I'm making a lot of assumptions here, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm I'm like, I shouldn't do that, but like, is that part of how you maintain a healthy posture? And you know, you said people is your addiction, but also people is your purpose.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. No, you're spot on, my friend. You are absolutely right. Um, I'm st I still struggle with codependency. I still I want to be that person, I want to help people. And and one of the reasons I started volunteering and sponsoring in the community was because my son didn't want my help. He didn't want anything to do with me. And I had this urge, this need, this call, if you will, to help people. And so I took that and I started helping people who actually wanted my help. So, with the profession being in the people space, I have to have very, very strong boundaries because I'll tell you, there's a crisis every minute of every day, okay, working in this space. And if I allow myself, I will be in the middle of those crises. As a matter of fact, early on in my volunteer work, I would answer the call at 3 a.m. I would be there for the mom whose son just got picked up from the police at 3 a.m., so consoling her. So I do have very firm boundaries because what we do is very heavy work. We listen to vulnerable moments, we deal with heavy, heavy emotional baggage and stories. And there are many times where I cry with my clients and with the family members. So to have those firm boundaries is extremely important, not only for me, but for them. Because here's what also happens when you're helping people, they become dependent on you and then they start to come to you rather than solving their own problems. So, one of the things, one of the reasons I have such strong boundaries with in my private practice as well, is because sometimes I'll get a client that reaches out outside of our scheduled session and they want me to help them through their going through. And that's not how this works. How this works is we meet at this specific time and you take those tools and you live your life. And if the tools don't work, we'll talk about it again because you know what? That problem, it'll be there tomorrow. And I'll tomorrow too. And I think that's one thing that we have to learn is just because there's a crisis doesn't mean it's our crisis. That's a huge thing I had to learn because it was always my crisis.
SPEAKER_00:Always a crisis. Well, and it's I think it's why you see so many people in helping type professions lose their identity in what they're doing. You know, I come from the church world, which is different but similar, where it's the people business. You're trying to help people spiritually and whatever. And, you know, here I am as a leader in the church, completely completely imploding my life while my whole life purpose is to lead people spiritually. It's like, how does that happen? You know, but therapist, I mean, and maybe any line of work and when it comes to, you know, if you don't have clear boundaries, I know in business, same way. It's like you, if you don't have those things, and it goes back to self-care and compassion, all those kind of things, you're not going to be able to continue to show up for the for those people in the way they the way they need anyway. And then you lose trust because, hey, this is the person that was supposed to have it together, and their life is, you know, it's it's this really vicious circle.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and then you get emotionally attached, you get you get emotionally attached to the situation. And if I'm here answering your every single call, then what space does that leave for you to grow individually? I'm I'm robbing you of the ability to solve the problem yourself, and that's exactly what I'm teaching family members to allow their person to do is to solve the problems themselves. So be able to practice what I preach. Yeah. Um, otherwise, I I, like you said, I'll fall into that as well, and I'll become just as functional as the people I'm working with.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Well, thanks for setting a good example there. And I'm sure there's days and weeks that are better than others, but I love that that you have those boundaries. I was like, man, I need to do that. I need to have like no email days where I'm just like not on my email and I'll catch up when I need to catch up. But I I I want to ask you this, and I'm not even like halfway through my question, so we'll have to do another one of these and no. No, it's it's not that at all. It's that what you're offering here is is so valuable. Um, and I want to keep talking I could literally keep having this conversation because I think it's it's so important. But I you said something earlier, and I I wanted to go down this road. You talking about helping, um, I think you're talking about in your own story, but speaking your truth and like learning to speak your truth. Well, for a lot of people, spouses, partners, families, whatever, they have either not done that or have just been silent for so long, and now now all of a sudden they're finding their voice, but it's coming out angry or sideways, or and so there on one hand, there's it's this really cool thing when when voiceless people find their voice and all of a sudden can speak up for themselves, and and then part two of that is now how do we communicate in a way that is I don't know if the word's productive or helpful or whatever, but at the same time, I and I'll just speak personally, my wife wouldn't mind sharing. I have really enjoyed, and I mean this because sometimes it's it's been to my you know, I won't say detriment, but been against what I wanted. I've really enjoyed experiencing my wife finding her voice more over the last few years. If I I've learned that if I'll dignify her voice and if I'll listen, and if I will like actually bring her in as a partner in life and in value, her discernment and all the wisdom and the stuff she has, man, it avoids a lot of pain, a lot of you know, heartache, a lot of things. And so I have overwhelmed and overshadowed her voice for the better part of 20 years. And so to be able to like actually listen and to have her speak, so it's been great. And what's also true is I've had to hold space for I'm happy you're finding your voice. And can we learn how to communicate now in a way that, you know, and and I'll be on, and I'm being like super candid with you. Early in recovery, we're told as as men, hey, it's our job to create safety for our spouses in however they want to show up. If they want to yell and want, you know, of course, there's boundaries of like what what is acceptable, but I still don't feel early in recovery that it's my job to course correct how my wife might show up with her voice in that moment. I'm super thrilled, and I mean this, that she's using it. She's gotten better over time of knowing how to do it. So this has been the like longest-winded question of all time. But what I'm getting to is how do we how do we do that? How do you help these family members find their voice and then also know how to how to use it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe I don't know. I mean, and maybe that's not what's needed. Maybe they just need to place it, maybe that's in your group where it's just unfiltered, like, hey, you don't have to worry about how you're saying it right now, just say it. But I do think the words matter and tone matters and how we receive things matter. And so I would imagine that would be challenging, especially for these people early on. Like I'm angry or I'm feeling shame, but also I need to let this out.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Great question. Because I think a lot of a lot of people experience this. Whether they're dealing with addiction or not, right? At some point, people have to find their voice. Um, so personally with me, uh, again, I was married very young and I I didn't have a voice. I I don't even really know what I would do with that voice at 20 to 30 years old, right? Um, but what happened was I was what I would consider an ostrich. I put my head in the sand. I didn't see, I didn't hear, and I didn't say anything. Okay. I minded my own business and he did the drugs and did the booth. You know, I was just like, oh, I don't want to rock the boat, I don't want to argue. Um, it took about 10 years of his addiction for me to finally get angry enough to say something. And when I found my voice, oh my goodness, did I find my voice? Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um the neighbors heard me find my voice. There it is.
SPEAKER_00:It turns out it's a loud voice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So, so I I gosh, I screamed, I screamed so loud, I would give myself headaches. I screamed so loud because I had held on to that voice for almost a decade. Yeah. And when it came out, oh by golly, he was gonna hear me. Yeah, he was gonna get it, right? And you know what? The kids were gonna hear me, and they were gonna get it too, because nobody's gonna ever treat me like this again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I became this this this uh this this fierce figure where I mean people at Walmart better get out of my way, okay? Okay, I was this is great, I was and um I after, you know, I lived that way, a very toxic behavior for a few years until I started embarrassing myself, quite honestly, right? I was like, oh gosh, Brooke, you just yelled at somebody at Walmart again and now they're calling the police. This is really embarrassing. I really need to rein in my behavior. I couldn't control myself. I was angry and I was angry at the world because of the decisions I had made and the life I had built myself. I thought I had no choice, I thought I was stuck, and so I was gonna go around and I was gonna punish everybody for that choice I made in being married to this person. So again, um, it wasn't until after I divorced my ex-husband and I started going out in the world and um I started, I wasn't able to rein it in with my kids. And when my son started showing addiction, um, that's again when I learned I needed to calm my voice down. Because here's what happened, and this is the story I share with all the spouses and family members that come into my group. When my ex-husband passed, the last thing I said to him was terrible things in a high-pitched voice, in a condescending tone. The last thing I said to my sister-in-law was condescending things in a high-pitched voice, and they were not kind either. And both of those people left this earth with me behaving that way as their last moment with me. I had to live with the shame and the guilt of treating this person who couldn't help it. I didn't understand addiction yet. Um, I thought they were, I thought they were weak minded. Get it together. All you have to do is stop drinking. And so when they passed, they're gone. They're they're off to better places. They have no more hurt, they have no more anger. But I was left on this earth with the hate and the shame and the anger. And I had to move through the world, beating myself up every day because I know the last thing I told them was, you're a piece of crap. What the hell is wrong with you? Get it together. So for me, I want to save as many people as possible because I'm that person, right? And I always want to let them know like if if if this person were to go away tomorrow, what would be the last thing you said to them? So again, if the best thing, if the kindest thing you can say is nothing at all, then let's go with nothing at all. Can we muster, can we muster an I love you? Is that what we can do? Because when my son was on the street smoking fentanyl, I was angry at him. I was angry at all these boundaries. Don't you call me when you're using, don't you come over when you're using? Um, and it got to the point where I was like, oh my gosh, if I lose my son, I need him to know I love him. And so I had to soften my voice, I had to soften my ways because I could not survive on this earth losing my child. And the last thing I ever said was terrible and ugly and hateful things. So when I'm working with the very angry people who didn't have their voice and they are finding their voice, I always tell them that story so that they can kind of put things in perspective. But I guess to backtrack, in order to help somebody find their voice to begin with, sometimes we just have to start with a simple no. No, what can you say no to? Can you say no to I'm not gonna make dinner tonight? How about a no to I'm not gonna do your laundry? What can you say no to? And then let's start there. Because what that does is that'll empower them to say no to the next thing and then the next thing. And then if they get to the point where, like I said, they're raging all over town, then they get the talk of let's talk about what, if anything, the last thing you say, what would that look like? Let's put these in perspective because sometimes we're dealing with people that they're they're very far along the addiction spectrum, and tomorrow is not.
SPEAKER_00:I I literally got goosebumps when you said that the when you said no, because again, this it's why I love doing these podcasts, because I feel like I'm just I'm learning so much, I have so many aha moments. But when I've whenever I've heard the phrase finding your voice, and what if for whatever reason in my mind I pictured almost like almost it being verbose, like a stream of consciousness, and I found my voice, so I'm just it's and what you just said that finding your voice could be a two-letter word. That can be finding your voice for now and build on it, you know. Um that is that is so unbelievably helpful for you know, because I just think it's so simple, but like it's so powerful for someone just to say, time out, nope. I don't have to explain myself, I don't have to give, I don't rationalize it, I don't have to I don't owe you any of that right now. It's just for right now, it's a no for me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and like you just went somewhere because us the the people teasers, like the codependents, like we don't know how no, we don't even know what our favorite color is half the time, okay?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:Right? We're we're like, oh, we'll eat whatever. What do you want for dinner? Where do you want to go? We're just obliged throughout our life. So to find the no, even as simple again as if I don't want to make dinner, order out, like finding your first no is huge. And it's where we start. Like you said, it's one one step at a time, one hour at a time, one day at a time.
SPEAKER_00:Amazing. All right. So last question, and and and I I'll say this and I mean it. Will you please come back? Well, can we do this some more? Because this is so good. It's so and I because a lot of the people that listen to our podcast, it it are it is the family members, it's the spouses and the you know, and so I think this kind of thing, and there's so many different avenues that we can go um, you know, and and talk about. But I just wanted you to kind of as we close, if you'd be willing to just if you're sitting down and are able to sit kind of across the table having coffee with a family member, and there's just been either discovery or their loved one has just gone off to rehab, or something's happened where they're just they're they're in that mode where everything feels upside down. What encouragement or what would you say in that moment to them that are they're beginning this process of healing?
SPEAKER_02:I would start by saying you are not alone. I I see you, I hear you, I am you, and let's start to heal. Let's start healing you. What do you need and what do you want? And let's let's start there. Let's talk about that. And then just sit with them and hold space with them and allow them to cry, allow them to be angry, allow them to be whatever they need to be, and and tell them that it's okay to be that also. That's that's really where I go with things to begin with. Like I'm here for you. We are not alone, we can do this together.
