Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Tandem Recovery for Families of Addicts with Brooke Donohue
Healing doesn’t happen in perfect sync, and that’s okay. We explore tandem recovery with Brooke, our family advocate who coaches partners and parents through the messy, courageous work of rebuilding trust and balance after addiction. Think of a tandem bike: sometimes you steer, sometimes you push from behind, and either way the goal is shared direction. Brooke brings clear, compassionate guidance on how families can stop rescuing, start feeling, and move forward together without losing themselves.
We dig into emotional responsibility and the difference between healthy care and control. You’ll learn how to spot subtle codependency—automatic fixing, people pleasing, and quiet resentment—and replace it with boundaries rooted in intention and motivation. We also get practical about the body’s early warning signs: the held breath, the heat in your face, the stomach drop when the phone lights up. Those cues matter. Pausing to regulate before you answer is not avoidance; it’s wisdom. From there, we talk about natural consequences, how to accept an apology without erasing the harm, and why letting someone sit with shame can be an act of love.
One of the most powerful tools we unpack is digital detox during treatment. Creating space breaks the cycle of emotional management, reveals where each person has leaned on the other to self-soothe, and opens the door to interdependence. We close with a simple mantra: attraction, not promotion. Live the calm and clarity you hope to see. The pace of recovery will shift, leadership will change hands, and the ride won’t be perfectly even—but with honesty, boundaries, and shared purpose, you can pedal the same road and actually enjoy the view.
Subscribe for more conversations on recovery, family healing, and practical tools you can use today. If this resonated, share it with someone who needs hope and leave a review to help others find the show.
If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.
Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.
Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.
Well, hey everyone, welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast, where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, Drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast, you'll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at Valiant Living.com. We'd love to have a conversation with you. But for now, let's dive into today's episode. So I get the privilege of having Brooke back a second time so so soon. And then like I think we just recorded a month ago. And here you are. We just couldn't get enough of you, Brooke. That's what it was. Couldn't get enough. Well that's welcome back to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00:So we have to poke a little bit of fun. We did a we did an episode, what, a couple a month or two ago. It wasn't that long ago. And candidly, it was the episode was really performing well from the standpoint of it was helping a lot of people. We were getting a lot of great responses. It was one of our better performing podcasts, but we didn't know that we were infringing on some copyright with some phrases that we were using. And we were politely asked to people that are listening can't see the faces you're making, but they can they can just assume uh to take down that that episode. So I we were we obliged, we pulled the episode. Um, but I was like, but we're not gonna give up because this topic is too important and what you were saying was too good. I'm like, well, we'll just re-record another episode and we will stay away from certain words and certainly will.
SPEAKER_01:We will be mindful.
SPEAKER_00:And I also need people that don't know us to be proud of us of how much restraint we're using right now in and being polite about this conversation.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And those who do know me understand completely.
SPEAKER_00:So today we're gonna be talking about tandem recovery. That is what we're gonna be talking about. And the the point is, and what we talked about a lot in the in the last episode, and there will be a lot of people that will hear this that have heard that episode, so we're not gonna we're not gonna do the episode over again. It's not gonna be the same episode. There's a lot more we want to talk about. Um, but for those that didn't um hear the last episode, could you just kind of introduce who you are and the work that you do at Valiant Living and um just kind of give us a refresher on that? And thanks for being a great a great sport about this. And and I know your time is valuable, so for you to come back on, it really means a lot. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Of course, it is my honor um to be a part of this. You know, uh I'm just trying to 12-step it through life as much as I can. And this is a part of that. So I I really am just here to serve others and to help them um by sharing my experience and strength and hope. Um, and if it just reaches one person and I can touch one person and get them to think a little bit deeper about their situation, um, then it's I've done my job. So thank you.
SPEAKER_02:It's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Um to answer your question, I am um I facilitate the family groups within Valiant Living Treatment Center. Um, I am what one would consider a family advocate. Um, so a lot of times when the family's spouses, moms, dads, friends, sisters, whoever puts um I I want to say put somebody in treatment, but I that it's kind of how it goes. But I also want to be mindful that there are many individuals that make a conscious decision to enter treatment. So I'll rephrase that by when there's a family member that stands behind somebody that is treatment. Um a lot of times we don't know how to support this person. We just know that maybe we should help pay for it. Um, and that's pretty much it. We're very lost in what to say, what to do, how to act, um, how to speak, even. And so my job within Valiant Living is to coach these families, um, educate them and coach them on the the the what to do's and what not to do's with somebody that is in active addiction, early recovery, and potential relapse as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So, and I love that. And it's such a it's such important work. And uh, you know, a lot of people that that listen to this podcast are it is the family members. And I was just having this conversation with my my with my wife. I also had the conversation with uh Michael Denin, um, our CEO, our owner of our company. A lot of, and I and I don't think I'm letting the cat out of the bag here, but a lot of our our emphasis and focus moving forward as a treatment center is going to be how to support the loved ones, because oftentimes they are the ones that use, as Michael calls loving leverage as opposed to an ultimatum to get their person, their loved one, into recovery. Um, most of us, and I would say I say us because I'm included in this, wouldn't have not have gone if it wasn't for a family member spouse. In my case, it was my my wife and my kids, saying, Dad, we need you to go. And and even a little tougher than that, my wife's saying, Hey, if there's any chance of us rebuilding a future together, it's gonna be at least 90 days, maybe more if that's what they recommend. It wasn't gonna be 89 and three-quarters. It was gonna be you're doing 90. And I'm so grateful because uh it's I think a lot of spouses, loved ones, partners, it's really hard to draw that line and draw that boundary and and do that. And so the work that you're doing at Valiant is is so important. And I I want you to to, if you would mind, just to redefine uh this idea of tandem recovery. And I love we we were talking just a little bit before we started, and you have really kind of framed and reframed this idea really beautifully. Would you mind just kind of sharing you know what that means to you and how we can apply it?
SPEAKER_01:Of course, yes. Um when I learned of the um the fact that we had to pull the last um episode due to the phrases that we were using, um, I really was upset because that phrase is quite perfect in my mind. Um, but so I so I really just kind of went down the rabbit hole of you know other words that I could replace in that. Um and the one word that I I landed on and I was okay with was this was tandem. And part of my hang up was well, tandem defin the definition of tandem is one behind the other. And I thought, I'm not, I don't like that because I want to be side by side with this person. But then I really started thinking about my experience and the experience of the hundreds of family members that I've worked with. And I started really kind of putting it together, like rarely, if ever, are we side by side.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um typically where we are is we are um, and again, I love my analogies, and so I'm gonna use a bicycle for another one, um similar to a tandem bike. Um, there's somebody in the front and there's somebody in the back, and one of them is is is driving it, right? Um, steering it, and the other person is using all of their might to, you know, push those pedals, right?
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And I feel like that is more of a depiction of what us family members go through, is we stand behind this person who is steering. And rarely can we see where they're going. We just know that we've got to work hard to help them go in the right direction. And so we're truly behind this person, supporting them. Um, again, in whatever fashion we think we should. And so when someone enters into treatment, um, we are there behind them, standing there, supporting them, financing it, loving them through it if we can, right? Depending on what that love looks like. But again, so I I really kind of honed in on the word tandem because again, we're always either behind them or sometimes even in front of them, saying, Hey, I need you to follow me. Follow me here. I'm gonna take you here. I and it I think about that because you know, I had when my son first started showing signs of addiction, he was very young. He was, I think, gosh, I think he was 17 when he went into his first treatment center. And at that point, he was he was not the person that was saying, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm a grown-up, I'm a full-blown man, leave me alone. He, this was a young boy where I was the one telling him, You got to go here, you got to do this, you got to do that, you got to do this. Um, so I was leading. So I find that in this tandem phrase, I like it because somebody's always, somebody's always behind, somebody's always in front, but regardless of who's in front and who's behind, we're in this together.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Our bicycle is going in the same direction. We are a team, we are working, and it doesn't matter who's in front or behind, as long as we do this as teamwork. That's what really matters. And repairing family systems is so crucial to the recovery process that I find that that that phrase and that analogy really fits what I'm looking to do.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. It's it's to me, it's so perfect. And as you were talking, what came up for me was, you know, when I and I've heard a lot of my friends have gone through recovery is in a similar place where say you do 90 days and you come home and you feel like, hey, I've just been in this 90-day boot camp in this incubator of sorts. I mean, that's not completely fair, but it is a very safe, protected environment. Then you come home and you're like, you're on cloud nine. You're like, I'm fixed, I'm better, I'm good, I'm whatever. Well, to our loved ones, that 90 day went by in a blink. I mean, it went by so fast. And they're it all feels very fresh. They've been keeping everything afloat. And, you know, you get home and you're like, well, why aren't why is not everybody okay? Why were and and I remember one of the therapists at Valiant said you have to a lot of times you have to heal at the pace of the betrayed partner or the wounded or the hurt, whatever. And as you were just talking, I was like, well, that's what it means to be in tandem recovery, because sometimes you even have to slow down and say, Hey, I I might have experienced more healing or at a faster pace. You're not there yet. We're still going in the same direction, but I'm gonna wait on you. It's we're not side by side always. So I do think in this whole in this whole deal, the way you've reframed it, it's actually given a deeper understanding and level of what this actually is. Because you're right, there's very few times, at least for me and my wife, where we're exactly side by side. Sometimes, and that's and we're trying to attune, we're trying to get there. Uh, but mostly it's you know, I'm struggling or she's struggling or whatever. And it's it's a back and forth. Sometimes she's leading, sometimes I'm leading, and it's a beautiful, beautiful picture. So thank you for for what I think what this whole conversation got richer and deeper because of you know your willingness to be flexible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's where we it's where we were taken, right? The the world, you know, the world reacted um and we responded, and our response is even better. So I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, it's great. It's great. Well, let's talk about I want to talk a little bit about emotional responsibility and some internal work work, just kind of picking up from where we left off. And I feel like last conversation, I I got through like five questions, and there was like tons more. So we'll see where this one goes. Um, but one of the biggest turning points for partners is learning to separate what's mine and what's his. You know, recovery we talk about keeping our sides of the street clean, and there's so much in codependency. I know my wife and I have been doing a lot of work recently on just codependency. What is it? Where does those things intersect? What does emotional responsibility actually look like in a relationship that is recovering from addiction?
SPEAKER_01:Um it's a really good question. Not a lot of people stop to think about that. Um and and honestly, it's because society and our upbringing teaches us otherwise. Um so let me back up a little bit. Um when we are young, we are taught that um we need to share so that we don't hurt this person's feelings. Um, we need to, you know, have good manners so that we are viewed as a nice polite child. Uh, we must say please and thank you, right? Um, we're taught these certain ways of moving through the world, if you will. Um, and we're also taught that when we are polite and when we oblige and when mom and dad are happy, then we get allowances. We are, we get privileges, right? And when we're naughty or we talk back or we say the things that make the person angry, we are then taught that um that's not a good place to be. Um that isn't always safe. It's not safe for us to say no because then the parents get mad and now we're punished. So as we grow up, we are taught to be a good girl or good boy. Then we grow up and we have we get married and we have children and we're still thinking that. I I really want to say no, but I'm gonna say yes because my partner really wants this, and I'm gonna go ahead and do it even though I don't want to, because I want my partner to be happy. And while there is room for that in relationships, unhealthy when we we we lean into the unhealthy space when we are chronically doing that, when we are consistently abandoning our own wants and needs to make another person happy. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:Then we have society. Society says, look at this loving mother. She has given up her career, she has given up her friends, she has given up, she hasn't bought a pair of shoes for herself in 20 years. This is a selfless mother. This is the ideal version of a mother or a father. Plug it in, however you want. So not only is our upbringing telling us this, but also is society. Look at the father. He doesn't, he works all day, he doesn't even have hobbies, he doesn't do anything, he gets off work and he goes straight to the kids' games, and that is one heck of a father.
SPEAKER_00:Right, that of the year, right there. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So we have all this programming that tells us put others first, put others first, put others first. But then we get on a plane and the flight attendants tell us to put the oxygen mask on yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I'm like, wait a minute, this goes against everything I have been taught in my life. To be a good girl, I must help everybody around me first. Yeah, but what happens if we decide to help others around us first when we are on a plane that needs oxygen masks is we run out of breath and we are unable to help anybody around us. So we must help ourselves first before we can help others. Now, I don't know about you, but when I get on a plane, my earbuds go in and I don't listen to anything anybody says. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Same, same.
SPEAKER_01:So even though I've heard that that that that rule, that recommendation, whatever, for years and years and years, I've never put it into play in my life until um I started loving individuals that were struggling with addiction. And I was chronically putting them first. Um, and at no point did I ever take a moment to ask myself, what do I want to do? What is best for me? It was always what is best for this person, what is best for that person, what's best for the kids, what's best for my boss, what's best for this company. Okay. Um, again, really never taking inventory of my own needs. So to answer your question, what does it look like to be emotionally responsible? What that looks like is to again ask yourself, what do I need? And then honor that before you honor somebody else's needs and wants. And that's a really difficult thing because we are having to unlearn all the stories and all the programming that we have learned again throughout our upbringing and society and wherever else we went through, all the relationships, okay, um, that we've we've experienced. So when I separated from my ex-husband, who was an active um addict, I didn't, I didn't even know what my favorite food was. I didn't know what my favorite color was. Um, I didn't, I had, I didn't know myself at all.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but I knew exactly what he wanted to eat, how he ate it, where he ate it, when he ate it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01:So that was part of my codependency. My codependency was I'm fine, but I need to take care of this person because in taking care of this person and making this person happy, I was feeding the void within myself. Wow, and I was and I I thought that I was making myself happy. And for a while I was, because my the way I validated myself in this world was by taking care of others.
SPEAKER_00:So you're getting something from it too in that moment as someone who's in a codependent type relationship. That's interesting. It's feeding something in you as well, or not you, but in this scenario, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, and and and don't get me wrong, Drew. Like I still struggle with this. It is a constant practice for me. Um, I want to make everybody happy. I want everybody to like me. I want everybody to invite me to their parties and and and to think I'm a great person. And and so I I walk through this earth really trying to appease everyone. Um, but as I move through my recovery, I start looking a little bit deeper. And so when I get those invites, I ask myself, like, I don't know, how am I feeling today? Do I really want to go? If I'm tired and I'm depleted, I I start, I've started saying no, I don't want to go. Whereas before, I would wouldn't, I wouldn't even take inventory. I wouldn't ask myself anything. I would just say, yes, I will be there. Yes, I will host, yes, I will pay for this, yes, I will meet you there, yes, I will drive across the state on a vacation with you, even though I really don't want to do it.
SPEAKER_02:Don't want to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Uh-huh. So emotionally being emotionally responsible means really taking ownership over what's going on inside of you. Because another problem we deal with is another aspect of codependency that lends into what I'm talking about now is when my person is upset, I am upset. When they are happy, I am happy. When they're freaking out, I'm freaking out. So to understand where my emotions begin and theirs end is so important. And it's a lot of work I do with the families and the wives of these individuals struggling because their crises, which happen often because we're dealing with somebody in active addiction, become my crises. And I don't even think about it. I am on the phone, I'm in the car, I'm paying this, I'm doing whatever I have to do to fix and to solve. And at no point to ask myself, how do I feel about this?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's so, I mean, I relate to so much of what you're saying. I mean, it makes so much sense because you know, coming from from my side of being an addict for so many years, and most of the time, most of those years not even knowing it, I can see now in hindsight how my personality tend, especially in my marriage relationship, to kind of suck all the oxygen out of the room. Like it was my feelings are big, my needs are big, my career, my job, let's move, let's. I mean, it was, and over time, I just became the center of the universe. And everything revolved, kids, wife, everything revolved around me. And it wasn't that I don't think it was that I didn't care about how other people was feeling. It just my feelings were so big that I didn't even know or think to ask. Well, what do you need? What are you feeling? What are you and and then I just made the assumption, well, if you felt something, you would just share, because I'm just sharing openly. I'm living big, whatever. This actually just came up a few weeks ago where we were talking about something, it was a career type decision. And again, I was getting in the back in the driver's seat, and everything was getting big. And and Jamie kind of just very calmly and politely said, like, hey, have you considered how you know what's going on in me right now? And I was like, Oh wow. I did it again, where I just assume everyone's like me. You just share your feelings. I'm just open share. Like, well, I figure if you had them, you would share them. But for so many years, I sucked all the oxygen out of the room. There was no space for anyone else to say, you know, and that's really tough to detangle, to unwind, to without intentionality and coaching for people like yourself and treatment and everything else. I mean, it is really tough. I'm curious, what are some other just subtle ways, you know, because there's so much of what you just said that I'm like, gosh, she's just reading my mail because this is this is but I think this is in a lot of relationships where like even when you said learning how to be okay, like letting someone have their anger or have their fear or have their sadness, but not feel like I've got to go down that rabbit hole with you. Like I can empathize with you, but I don't have to. Your bad day doesn't have to be my bad day. Like I can still have a good day and not feel shame that I'm actually having a great day. And I'm sorry you're not having one. And how can I, you know, help you? How can I make your day better? But I'm not gonna go down that that road with you. What are some other and I feel like I gotta give a disclaimer I'm nowhere near having this down. I'm learning this, you know, like nine times out of ten, I fail at this. So let me just put that out there. Um, but what are some other subtle ways that we can slip into caretaking, control, resentment? I mean, without even realizing it.
SPEAKER_01:That's a great question. I mean, and I I feel like I say this to all your questions, but they are very well thought out. But also, you're in recovery, so you have the right exactly. So that's why you ask such great questions. But um, there are so many ways. It's so insidious, it is so um tricky, and that is part of again the daily practice. Even I have to practice daily, and I've been doing and I'm out there, you know, coaching people not to do it, and it falls in my lap on a minute by minute basis. Um, so okay, so let me let me let me give you a little bit of background. I I am Hispanic, um, and in the Latin culture, um, women do a lot of the cooking and the caretaking. And part of our culture is um we are we're really good at cooking and serving. Okay. So growing up, I never saw my my stepdad in the kitchen. Uh I never saw my brother in the kitchen. I wasn't even in the kitchen. My mom was such an amazing person. Um, she would cook, she would clean, she would serve, we would sit at the table and she'd bring everything to us and then she'd pick everything up and she'd take everything back. My grandma too, right? This is part of my family's culture. And so when I became a wife, I that's what I did. I didn't realize that that was part of my codependency. That was part of my family's codependency, okay? Because I was brought up think being taught that this is this is the way our culture is. This is how the women in our family do. And I was, and I'm more than happy to do that. As a matter of fact, I still do that today. However, I do it with intention. Um, I realize what I'm doing and I choose to do it. So here's here's here's the line, okay? When we are doing things automatically and we are not being intentional about it. So, for example, let's say husband walks in the kitchen and he's like, Oh, I'm so hungry. Oh, are you hungry? Do you want me you want me to make you a sandwich? Are you you are you ready for dinner? There's uh some apples. I can cut you an apple. You want an apple? That jumping up, that response is the codependency that we don't see happening. Um comes home, has a bad day, like you said, is they're angry, they're coming home from work, and now all of a sudden you're angry, and now you're fussing at the kids and you're slamming doors, and you're because he's angry and and you said something to him, and he said something to you, and it just triggered. That's another way that we fall into that trap. I have a couple of wives where the husbands have a lot of medical needs, and historically the wives would assist with these medical needs, making the appointments, um, even legal situations, right? Uh, calling the lawyers, calling the the the the whoever, the courts, all the things, okay?
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:We step into that mode and we start doing for them automatically without even being asked. We slowly start to get resentful because we're taking this on. Um, because in the beginning, it feels good. In the beginning, I'm helping this person out, I'm doing what they can do. I am I'm kind of a superhero.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:My family is like I'm the first one to throw on my cape and just fly in to save you, whatever that might look like. You don't even have to ask, just say, uh oh, and I'm there. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:How deep my codependency was. And so now when I hear somebody say, Oh, I'm just so hungry, or oh, I'm just so tired, instead of responding like, oh, well, did you maybe you need an app trying to solve that problem? I sit and I don't say anything. And that's really, really hard. Okay. Because historically, like I said, I was a I've been a mom since I was 17 years old. When the baby, specifically for women, when the babies cry, when the kids fall, you jump up, you don't even ask, you just do. And you you take on a lot of that with your husband as well in life. And so again, this codependency, it starts off as being a good girl, being a good wife, being a good friend, being a good daughter. And what happens is we just keep doing this over and over again without thinking. And so I always try to coach my family members in in this. If you want to do it, do it. But if you do not want to do it and you're annoyed that you have to do it, and you're starting to build this little ball of resentment because this is something you have to take care of all the time, that's a huge red flag that we need to create some boundaries surround surrounding your codependency. Right. So again, just responding without even being asked to help is a huge sign that you are slipping back into your codependent ways.
SPEAKER_00:So I I love all this. My my only it's not a pushback, it's just a question. And this is for me personally. So I'm getting I'm I'm getting some free coaching here. Um where is that line between and you just kind of answered it, where it's like, I maybe I want to do that, maybe I want to make the sandwich, but then also in a in a relationship, in a marriage specifically, and this is probably true for all relationships, there's oftentimes there's just things that you do because you're serving or loving that you don't you don't want to do, right? So it's like I may not want to, I don't know, I'm just thinking of a dumb example. I don't want to take out the trash.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I don't, or whatever. Or my wife likes it when the bed's made. I don't want to make the bed. So I'm not gonna do it. I don't want to, but there's a part of me that's like, well, no, if I love someone and I want to serve them, even though I don't want to do it, I still so you see what I'm getting at here, right? Is it a is it just about intention? Is it about saying what is the why behind here? I'm so curious what what you have to say to that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, uh good follow-up question. Um, so intention is extremely important. We always want to be intentional about our movements, specifically as somebody in recovery, similar to where you have to be very intentional about what you do with your emotions and your feelings to not have a relapse. So do we. We have to be very intentional with our our feelings and our emotions, okay? Because again, to a codependent, it feels really freaking good to make that sandwich, to call that boss, to make the appointment, to pay the debt to whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:So intentionality is huge. But the next one is motivation.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, great.
SPEAKER_01:What's your motivation? Now, if your motivation is because I love my wife and I want to make her happy. So I'm gonna and I want a smooth day. I don't want her to be, you know, nagging me or anything like that. It's it's a it's an unnecessary fight. I'm gonna do this. Also, it's not just for her. This is a this is a this is a household situation. You make that bed, you take out the trash, okay? Now, my husband, when I met him, um, I was not in recovery. And so I did a lot of the serving and the cleaning and the cooking and all this stuff. And as my recovery kicked in, I was like, no, I will not be cooking dinner tonight. No, not be washing dishes tonight.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And and and and and it really did kind of create this uncharted territory for us because he was in love with that version of me. And through my recovery, I changed quite a bit. What I realize is that even though I don't have to do it, I choose to do it. I choose to put his food on a plate and bring that plate to him and serve him because it makes me feel good. It makes him feel good, and at the end of the day, it helps our relationship. And I understand that it is a codependent move, okay, but I'm making the intentional and the conscious decision to go ahead and do it anyways, because this is how I prefer to treat the person I love. Causing harm. And here's another thing with the motivation. If my motivation was like, well, I'm gonna do this so that way he leaves me alone or he buys me a business, or maybe I so I can go out with my friends. Like, if I'm if I'm checking my motivation and I am doing this for a reason to make to get something, to make somebody feel a certain way, to control the outcome, that's when we get into very sticky water, the sticky area, right? So always checking that motivation because another thing we deal with in this codependency space is a lot of people pleasing. Yes, and we do it to keep them happy. So again, checking that motivation. Why am I doing this? Is there anything out of it that I'm gaining?
SPEAKER_00:Well, the control thing too, like I, as you're talking, that's coming up for me. It's like there's things if I'm checking my motivation and how I, you know, codependently can react to my family. A lot of it is a control thing. I'm trying to control a narrative or an outcome or whatever. And man, that is so, and you said intentionality and motivation, those are the two things that came up. It's like, man, to be able to process in in real time, okay, I'm gonna be intentional with how I feel, intentional with how I feel, what I'm what's going on. I'm gonna be willing to say no and draw that boundary. Or if I am gonna say yes, what is my motivation behind it? Am I hearing that correctly? What is what why am I saying yes to this? And are my motives healthy?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Because here's what I always tell the families when somebody comes to you, right? And they they they, oh man, I just I'm gonna get evicted and I just don't know what to do. Okay, well, are do you need some money? Do you do you, you know, do you uh I told you I wasn't gonna do it again, but you know what? I can go ahead and help you pay that rent if you want. Okay. That's usually what it sounds like because we've not had a chance to check in with ourselves. And if I'm really honest with myself and I look at my motivation, my motivation is to pay that rent so that he's not kicked out and he's not homeless because him being homeless is really gonna bother me.
SPEAKER_00:And I with that could be a reflection on my parenting. What are people gonna think about me? What like all that stuff could come back on you? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. So again, when we are tying our decision to controlling the outcome, the narrative, maybe, maybe we say yes because they don't want us to be mad at us, then we don't want them to be mad at us. That's another space where where it's not a healthy choice. That's another motive that we need to check. So when we check our motives, if it is not solely about us, then the answer should be different. Okay. Then we need to rethink this because if the answer is I don't want him to be mad, I want to have a good night, I don't want to fight, I just want him to go to sleep, whatever, right? If you're trying to control the outcome and it is not coming out of love because you genuinely want to do it, then we are looking at um some codependency and enabling behaviors.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and that's the I mean, it's so practical and so helpful. Uh, I mean, because I to me, I'm like, anytime I'm doing that, it it creates a disconnect for me and that person, which for me, what I'm trying to, the way I'm trying to live in recovery is I just want to be as honest as possible with where I'm at on stuff, like how I'm feeling. I want to be honest with myself. I want to be, and anytime I'm not honest, because I've lived so many years of you know, manipulation and control, and my survival skills were elite in being able to control and manipulate a situation and be likable and all these different things. And now I'm just like, I just I want I want to be honest because over time that really eroded like at the soul level, like there was such a lack of cohesion between my inner and outer world that it just led to that finally an implosion where I couldn't keep up the the you know the the scam anymore, if you will, or whatever it was, this this way of being. And now I'm like, man, I just I want to be I just want to be honest. I want to be honest where I'm at, where I'm feeling. And even if that creates feelings in the other person, I want to be able to say, you know, I'm not I can't do that right now, or whatever it is, or have those different conversations. And I feel like what you're saying is so helpful in breaking the codependent cycles because it allows us to go internal and really understand the why behind what's going on in our relationships. And I'm I'm super curious, specifically for for women, and the reason why I'm I'm just saying that because Valiant is a men's program, so a lot of you're working with are are the the partners, and you know, a lot of them are are women, but I think it applies to everybody. How would you recommend that these women or the codependents in the relationship, how do they begin to connect with their feelings, connect with their pain? Um, and I maybe you've already said it because the intentionality and the motivation stuff is super helpful. Um, but as opposed to being focused on the partner's dysfunction, how do we start to reverse that to where I'm in touch with what I need, what I'm feeling, and even the painful parts that are going on?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, good question. Um okay, so self-care. Um, it is one of the topics that I teach that is always an eye roller. Um, people tend to skip this group um because they're like, ah, I know self-care. I gotta take a bath and I need to, you know, go to shopping.
SPEAKER_00:Light a candle. Yeah, right, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But when over and and and I'll be very honest with you, in the beginning, it was about that, okay? But what I have found throughout again the years of shopping that didn't cure my problems, right, right, is that we if uh where I begin is how do you respond when your person is in addictive behavior? Let's talk about that. Tell me, tell me how you're telling me what you feel, tell me how you're responding. And so we really I start from the very beginning, okay? We talk about the feelings and the emotions, and a lot of times they cannot even place the emotions and the feelings, okay? Because they're so wrapped up in in in all the things and they honestly can't remember it, okay, because it happened and they're just I don't know. So I always help them look at themselves, okay. Are you breathing? When you, when he's when the phone rings in treatment and his caller ID comes up, what are you feeling right then and there? And a lot of times they stop breathing, their body stiffens. So, really getting in touch with the physiological part of it. What is your body doing at this moment? Because here's the thing our minds are like, oh, he's calling, I better answer the phone, I better write where we're our codependent mind is going. We're we've got to rock to this occasion, but our body keeps the score. That's right, is telling us, don't answer that phone. Oh my god, it's a crisis. And and you're literally in fight or flight when that phone rings. So if I can if I can really help the the the wives, the family members identify their their body and what their body is experiencing in those moments, that's a great starter because a lot of women, a lot of they cannot place that. Okay. I couldn't even place that to begin with. I had to really think about what it felt like when I was about to get into a conversation or or or engage with one of my addicts. After we deal with that and we talk about what you are experiencing, then I start talking about okay, what do you do when you experience these these moments? Uh, when you are breathing heavily or you've stopped breathing, or you you're you've got these these butterflies in your stomach. They're not the good butterflies, but the butterflies, right? Or your heart tracing really quickly. Or how about the sweating? A lot of us start sweating. We get very hot. Wow. And just the heat just goes. Mine personally starts at my head. When on the top of my head starts getting hot and it starts moving down my body and my stomach is doing the butterfly thing. I'm gonna tell you now, I'm gonna stop the conversation. I'm gonna get the heck out of there because I'm about to explode. And I think that that is the most important place to start with a lot of these women. Because if we can stop that, if we can become aware and stop it in its place, then where we go next is not the arguing and the fighting and the cussing and the screaming or the or the shutdown. Some some women experience complete shutdown when they get these emotions and these feelings coming. Um, because again, we we don't even see it. We don't even see it coming. So identifying where it's coming from and then working on what do we need to do? Start breathing again. Um, swing your arms, get some, go for a walk, right? What are we doing to help release these emotions? Because another thing we're really good at doing is keeping it all inside.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yep, bottling it up.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Let me ask you this because I I I definitely want to move on to I want to talk about relational triggers and navigating those because that's a big one. But this this topic of codependency and emotional responsibility is so important. One quick follow-up is I think a myth is that and I I actually don't know that this is 100% true. So let me frame it as a question, not as a statement. But a lot of times I've seen you've got like these categories of the codependent partner and the addict, and you've got the addict with the codependent. But isn't it true that the the addict can also be highly codependent as well? Like it's not one or the other necessarily. Like, because what I'm finding in myself, I've always I've always looked at my wife as she's codependent and I'm an addict. Well, the more I've been doing uh study and research and exploration around codependency in my own work, I realize that I've got as much, if not more, codependent tendencies and control. It looks a very it looks very different. But I've had to reframe this isn't like a like a lot of times the addict is as codependent, if not more codependent, although it may show up differently. What's your experience on that? Am I is that right? Am I off? Is that just me? I mean, what do you what do you see when it comes to that? Because I'm learning, I'm like, my God, I'm more codependent than she is, you know.
SPEAKER_01:You're spot on, my friend. You're spot on. Here's the caveat. Y'all are coping in different ways, y'all are numbing, okay? So your codependency is there, but it it looks more like under the guise of control, okay? So so so for you guys, right? Y'all want to know a little bit of everything, okay? You gotta have control over whatever. Um, but when your wife doesn't fill in the blank, there's these feelings. And and here's the biggest, biggest thing I will say. When a woman steps away from that codependent behavior, the men start really identifying with it because they're still angry. See, listen, misery loves company.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So if you if your wife did not rise and did not meet you where you were and she stayed even keel, you would feel a certain kind of way. You'd probably even get angrier because she was not there to meet you where you were. And that in itself is the codependency that we speak of. So again, when an act, when an addict is an active addiction, the codependency doesn't really come out because you are you are numbing. There's there's no codependency because you're in the you're an active addiction. Your disease has taken control, it is telling you all the things, and quite frankly, you're not thinking about anybody else but yourself unless you're sober. Okay. When you're coming down, when you're on those gnarly hangovers or what have you, or in that remorseful stage, the codependency is very, very high because you're feeling happy about yourself and you're looking for somebody to make you feel better about your choices and your decisions. And that's where the codependency shows up when they're in active addiction. Once the gentlemen get into treatment and they're separated from their wives, and the wives are living this life, and the men are in this space, you know, um, surrounded and being treated, the codependency really starts to turn up as well. Because where's my wife? What is she doing? Usually she's sitting at the house waiting for me because she doesn't trust me, and that's what she does. She waits for me and she watches me and she knows everything. But now I'm over here and she's free. And she's for me, and she's not picking up my phone calls every time, and she's not here to manage my meds and manage my behavior and manage my emotions. So now I'm feeling really uncomfortable and out of control because she's not here to keep me managed.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:So yes, it does come out, but again, that's part of what Valiant sees. And so a lot of times what we'll do is when we see these families that are extremely enmeshed on both ends, we will do what's called a digital detox to really create the separation so that way that they can take a look at each other's need for one another to regulate those emotions.
SPEAKER_00:I tell my friends that go into to value there in the beginning stages, I'm like, man, the digital detox thing, I fought that, but it probably saved my marriage, my family, whatever, because exactly for what you just said. They wouldn't let me use my kids and my wife and even my brother to feel better. They said, you have everything you need, you've got tools, you've got community, you're not alone, you've got everyone you need here to be able to connect and you know all the different things, but we're not gonna let you use the people you're codependent on to feel better. And I, in my opinion, and I think I think Danine would back me up on this. One of the most important parts of treatment and rehab is the separation, is getting the time away. I think it was 45 days for us before they and and honestly, when I started talking to my wife again, it was under therapeutic supervision. It wasn't just like here's your phone, start firing texts and calls away. It was like, no, we are going to help you kind of reintegrate into what communication and all that kind of stuff. It's so hard. It's like honestly, it's hard, it's like, especially for people that are dealing with process addictions, not substance, it's it's uh feels like a detox. Like it's a struggle. Like, I don't have my the thing that I use, the people that I use to feel better. So that was the hardest part of rehab for me was being disconnected from my parents, my brother, my uh kids, my wife, and just having to be okay without using somebody. And so I I think that's why I wanted to bring it up because I I I know for people that are listening, I think, you know, especially for the women that are listening, I don't want, I wouldn't want people to feel like, man, this is my issue only, and man, I'm so codependent, and I feel shame and and he's so independent, and you know, or vice versa. It's like we're both learning how to be, is it interdependent? Is that the word? We're both we're trying to learn how to be, you know, our our own person, to still have needs, to still have to communicate those needs, but also to be okay. You know, if Jamie can't meet my need in that moment, I don't have to go use.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:I have the tools I need to be okay. Does any of that make sense? I feel like I was just rambling there for a minute, but is that no?
SPEAKER_01:It makes complete sense. No, and I agree with you. I think that the digital detox is so important because what happens is these families they begin reacting a certain way. Okay. So, so, so this person that is engaging in this behavior and the family, their reaction. Their reaction in the beginning, it's working. Whatever the reaction is, it's working. But over time, their reaction actually becomes the problem. Um, Dr. Michael Barnes writes a wonderful book called When the Solution Becomes the Problem. And that's exactly what it goes over. It goes over the family's responses and how in the beginning it works. It helps, it helps quell the stuff. Everybody's calm, quiet. You've you've just you've extinguished this fire. But what happens is over time, this solution becomes the problem because now our response is is is enabling, it's enmeshment, it's not healthy. We are helping them. The natural consequences of the situation is not hitting the person.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Natural consequences with feelings is one of the most important natural consequences a person can feel. And that is where, again, as we said earlier, when you're upset, when you're angry, when you're shameful, when you have a family member to pop in and say, no, no, no, you didn't mean to. It's okay. You don't have to feel bad. We are rescuing them from the feelings that they should feel because what they did wrong. And it's not okay. And they should feel that shame because if they don't feel the shame, they're going to continue to do the things that they do because there is no consequence. So a lot of times families believe that tough love involves kicking them out and you know, not letting them see the kids and divorcing or whatever the case may be. When in fact, if we could just stop trying to make them feel better about their behaviors and their decisions, that in itself is huge. And many of us cannot do that, which is why the digital detox is so important because we're sick, they're sick, and if you put us together, we're just gonna keep it all over the place.
SPEAKER_00:It's so true. I mean, when I was a kid, I I feel like what I learned was that anger was the only emotion that was okay. Like you get angry, but uh don't feel sad, don't feel lonely, don't feel fear, don't like there's a there's a solution for all those things, but you can get angry, be pissed, be angry. So as an adult, that was the emotion that was easy for me to access. I get angry, but then when I realize that that's a secondary emotion, it's like okay, well, what's behind this anger? And so learning to your point, learning that it's okay to like to feel the sadness and to sit in it and to try to understand what is it trying to tell me? Like it's there for a reason. Like, shame is not an you know, shame is not a negative emotion, it's it's helping you, leading you to something, a toxic shame we want to stay away from. But it's like shame in itself, it's like you're learning from like it's like you were saying, it's not bad to feel shame. Like now you want to move through it, I I would think, you know, same thing with, but like avoiding it is not the answer. And I think unless we learn these behaviors and patterns where we stop using one another to not have to feel those, what in the as our as kids we would have labeled negative emotions. They're not, they're trying to tell us something about ourselves and how we show up in the world, and it's so important, it's been so important in my recovery to be able to be like, hey, I'm sad right now, and I don't need to fix it right now.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. And on the flip side of that is allow them to feel it, but don't put it on them. So, so, so um don't shame them. Okay. So, so what I'm saying is we don't rescue them from their own feelings, but we also don't add to their feelings. Okay. Because a lot of us, what we'll do is when they're feeling bad about whatever they just did, we're like, yeah, you should feel bad. You're a terrible person, and you make terrible choices, and that's why I am the way I am because of you, and we go on this tangent beating them up, and that's also not okay, right? So it's a fine line that we have to walk. Um, there's a church out in Denver called Free, and um their slogan is we don't do shame. And I because I was a huge shamer. Oh boy, I was a huge shamer with any of my family members in my addicts that didn't behave in the manner I expected them to. I would beat them with that shame. And when I stopped beating them with the shame, and I just allowed them to because what I did was I would beat them with it. And then after I learned that that wasn't healthy, then I would try to rescue them from it. No, it's okay. I know you didn't mean to do it. It's an addiction, it's not your fault, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I would do all those things. And then I started, I took a step back again as my recovery progressed, and I thought, well, wait a minute, it's not okay. What he did was not okay. So my advice, and I encourage anybody to do this, is when they apologize, accept that apology, but do not say it's okay. Say thank you for that apology. Thank you for understanding what it has done to me. But when we say, oh no, it's okay, and we tell them they don't need to apologize, then they don't have the opportunity to sit with the feelings that their behavior brought. And that's an important part. So, so again, we have to be very careful. We want to let them sit with their shame, but we don't want to add to it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's so that's so good. Oh my gosh. I'm just like, you know, a little, a little sidetrap, rap rabbit hole too, as you're saying that when you start living in recovery, and this is more targeted towards, you know, my brothers who might be listening or watching this who have come out of treatment or they're at Valiant Now or whatever, um, and you're learning and you're getting these aha moments. My in early, well, I'm still in, I would say I'm still in early recovery. It's only been three years, but like year one or two, I was so excited about the things that I was learning. And I so wanted to pass it on to my friends and loved ones who were struggling with similar things. And one thing I didn't realize in my codependency was I was trying to fix them, fix things in them from from what I would argue a very pure place at first, which was like, hey, this has changed my life. I think it'll change your life. But to what you just said, it wasn't allowing them to just kind of sit in what they needed to be in. And also I wasn't invited into that yet. And so it was me saying, so I had two conversations with two people that are very close to me where they came to me and said, Hey, uh, since you've come out of recovery um or come out of treatment, we feel very judged by you. And I was shocked. I was like, it was such a it was actually really helpful. And I said, Man, I never in a million years did I want to come off that way. I've just been changed by some of these things, and I was excited to share with you. So I don't know if if you wanted to speak to that, but just from the standpoint of for me, it's still important for people to work their process and to like to hold space. Like if someone is sharing with me, I don't have to jump in and fix them with what I've recently learned or whatever. I can just say, man, thank you for sharing that with me. And man, that is sad. That is tough. Like, and not hit them with, well, I have this, IFS this or that, or that, or what I learned that, you know, it's like, you know, and so, anyways, I don't know if that's helpful for anybody listening or watching, but I think that's part of the codependency is let me fix you. And that's so hard when you know that there could be something that would be really helpful for them because it's been helpful for you, but to just allow it to be. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can I just tell you that is one of the hardest parts of my job is like what you need to do. I know exactly what you need to do, I know exactly what you shouldn't do because I have done it all. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:But and and and and again, and we alluded this to the last um, or I alluded to this in the last podcast, but since it's no longer I'll do it, I'll say it again. The reason I started this work was because I was so codependent with my son, and he did not want anything to do with me trying to help him. Um, and so I took this this this need to help others, um, to fix others, and I started um volunteering in the community um with other parents of addicts. And um, and then like I well, and then I got a position within um and I got my coaching license and I started doing all of this. And part of my codependent behavior is the line of work I'm in. Let's be honest. I want to help, I want to fix. And one of my hardest, um, one of my biggest struggles is to not get in there and to tell people exactly what to do. Why aren't you listening to me? I told you to read the book and listen to the podcast, right? Um, but rather than just just to sit there with them and to hear, um, to listen to them, to meet them where they're at, to say, I'm so sorry. That's really hard. Um, specifically with my son. He's in and out of addiction often. And when he calls me and he is in that remorseful state, it is the hardest thing for me to do to just sit there and love him and say, you know what? I have faith in you. You're you're gonna way out of this. Because what I want to do and what I have done in the past is I get on, I get my Rolodex out and I start calling everybody I know. Can you go call him? Can you go check on him? Can you pull him out of his apartment? Hey, do you have an open bed? Hey, do you have, do you take medication? Right? Like I am just there. And that's not helpful for either one of us. And so in my line of work, I have to sit with people um because there comes a time and a place when they're ready to hear and ready to be told, I guess, and coached to. But for the most part, the first few sessions that I have with my clients, it is spent just listening and just sitting with them in the pain and in the in the sorrow because we're not ready to make moves yet. We need somebody to hear us, we need somebody to validate us, to tell us we're not alone. And then once we've gotten past that, then you tell me what to do. I'm ready to make the move. But until they're ready, there's nothing we can do but sit there and be with them. So one of the things that I've learned throughout my my 12-step program is attraction, not promotion.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I like that. Okay, unpack that.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so living in the way that you would tell people to live. Um, so in Al-Anon, in the Al-Anon program, we um are taught to stay in our lane. And that's not just in our relationship with our addict, but every relationship. So many of us like to focus on other people, specifically the negatives of other people, because it makes us feel better about ourselves. Okay. That comes by way of gossiping, talking about others, being very judgmental and controlling. And so part of the program is to let that go. Um, and that's really hard, okay? Specifically when I'm around people who do it. And what I want to say is, you know, that's not a good thing to do. And we should all live differently and we should do this, and then nobody wants to hang out anymore.
SPEAKER_00:Everybody wants to you become that person. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So, so when we live in that way versus talking about it, people see the serenity and the peace that we have in our world, and they want that. And so curiosity gets them, and then they come to me and they say, Hey, and and and and this is this happens. I this is how I get clients via social media. I live my life, I'm open and I'm honest. I say what I have to say, and people are seeing me from who I used to be. And they say, What did you do? Right. What did you do to change so much? Because I need a little bit of that in my life. And I said, here's what I started. As a matter of fact, I am a professional now and I'd be more than happy to help you find the your way as well. So again, living in living in it, not talking about it is really where it is with that sort of stuff. Cause like you said, people start to get away. They don't want to be around you because they feel as though they're judged. A lot of times when people find out that I do coaching in the addiction space, um, it does make them feel a certain kind of way to drink in front of me or to I'm I'm not judgmental. I love everybody, right? I love addicts, I love boozers, these are my people, right? I love there's no judgment, but I am here to help you if you ever needed it. So that's kind of where I try to come from.
SPEAKER_00:So funny because I, you know, I was a pastor for 20 years, and it was like the thing that I didn't want to tell people when I met them was that I was a pastor. And it wasn't because I was ashamed, it was because of how they felt like they needed a change to accommodate me. I was like, no, like you don't have we don't have to do this. Like, you know, that you could see them searching for like, well, yeah, I I I went to this church one time when I was, I was like, no, we don't have to like we're fine, we're good. But yeah, I totally, I totally get it. Well, listen, I want I want to give you to give one final thought just on because we kind of centered, we didn't really intend for it to go this way necessarily, but this idea of tandem recovery and how to how to you know the codependency and how to kind of find emotional responsibility, all that stuff. I would love, if you would be willing, and I know it's presumptuous, I do want to talk to you about triggers, specific triggers, like in how we navigate those things. So if you would be willing to come back at some point, I would love to have that conversation with you. Um but for today, what final word do you have for our men and women listening who are really trying to find their way through this through codependency and trying to live in tandem recovery with one another, you know, and I I love how that kind of comes full circle because that that's true, because there's times where I feel way more codependent on my wife, and there's times where she's leaning on me, you know, it's back and forth, you know. And but I think I think in being in tandem recovery with one another, the beauty of it is we're both trying to live a certain way so we can kind of uh understand and see and call it out lovingly and all those different things because we're both moving in the same direction. So, what kind of final thought would you have for us as as we're trying to live this? It's it's beautiful, but gosh, it's a very it's a it's harder, isn't it? It's a harder way to live in some ways, it's a better way, but it takes more intentionality.
SPEAKER_01:Um, it is so hard. It is so it is the hardest way. Listen, you you want crazy, you want in your face, you want gossip, you want judgmental. That's naturally to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's easy.
SPEAKER_01:Right? Like I am by default crazy. Being mindful, being intentional, staying in my own lane, that takes practice. So, yes, you are 100% right. It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, but man, has it been worth it. And so what I would love to leave with is it's really important to just always consider self for so long. We put we have put ourselves aside and we have put others first, and we've got to we've got to start changing that. So always ask yourself, what is best for me? What do I need? What do I want in that moment? And then, like I said, check your motivation. Why am I doing this? Staying in our own lane is extremely important because that's where the judgmental and the controlling stuff comes from. So when we stay in our own lanes and we focus solely on self, then suddenly we're not in other people's business, we're not in another person's recovery, we're not telling them how to live, how to think, and how to speak. That is a beautiful place to live because you are solely and utterly focused on self. Now, it's also really hard because a lot of times we got a lot of stuff going on up here and within, okay, and we don't want to lose that stuff. But I'm gonna tell you this looking at ourselves and holding a really big mirror in front of ourselves and looking at all the ugly and all the good is necessary to grow in life. Being uncomfortable is where the growth comes from. So focus on self, and everything else is gonna fall into place.
SPEAKER_00:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast, and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged, and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at ValiantLiving.com. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you would subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
