Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Holiday Triggers, Real Tools with Dr. Jake Smith Jr.
December can light up old wounds as quickly as it lights the tree. We invited Dr. Jake Smith Jr. of Plumline to help us turn holiday triggers into a plan for presence, connection, and real growth. Together we unpack why family dynamics can collapse time in the brain, why anger is never alone, and how the eight core feelings give you a simple language to name what’s true and meet your needs without handing your heart to the room.
We walk through affect labeling step by step—name the feeling, find the need, choose a healthy action—and show how this loop cuts off codependency at the root. When emotions spike, you’ll learn the “window of tolerance” and the concept of charge, plus exactly what to do when you jump from a four to a ten. Hint: it’s not more thinking. It’s sensory grounding—slow walks in the cold, a long shower, doing the dishes, beginner yoga—and giving full attention to sight, sound, smell, touch, and taste until your body settles. We also talk about spiritual bypassing, why the opposite of addiction is connection, and how to make daily check-ins a gym for the heart.
If you’re a loved one managing fear, we map out the three buckets of control to build protection, help, and refuge before the first party: what you fully control (lodging, exits, check-ins), what you partially control (clear expectations), and what you can’t control (someone else’s sobriety). We reframe boundaries as self-limits that protect connection, like shortening the visit or staying off-site, without trying to control the family system. The goal isn’t perfection; it’s presence. Smell the cider, feel the blanket, see the lights, and let attention do its healing work.
Grab the free Eight Core Feelings resource at ValiantLiving.com/episode52, then listen, share with a friend who needs a steadier December, and leave a review so more people can find this conversation. Subscribe for more honest tools for recovery and relationships.
If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.
Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.
Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.
Well, hey everyone, welcome back to the Valiant Living Podcast. My name is Drew Powell. I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. I'm also your host. And today's episode is really an important one, especially if you're heading into the holidays, carrying a mix of excitement, dread, hope, and maybe even a little anxiety. We're talking about navigating the holidays as an addict and specifically what happens when family dynamics become triggering. We're also going to be spending some real time addressing how loved ones can help create a safer environment during the holiday season without burning themselves out in the process. I'm joined today by a really good friend of mine, Dr. Jake Smith Jr. from Plumb Line Jake. He's a leader. He's someone who's been who spent years working directly with individuals and families impacted by addiction. He he brings both a clinical clarity and also a real-world compassion to the conversation. I think that you'll feel this right away. Plumb Line is something I went into right after treatment. And it was one of the most impactful things that I did post Valiant from my own soul and my own heart. And so I love the work that Jake does, and I'm really happy that you get to hear from him today. So as you listen, I really want to encourage you to stay with us all the way to the end of the episode because towards the end, we talk more specifically about how loved ones of addicts can care for themselves during the holidays, which is something that often gets gets overlooked. Also, I want to remind you that this episode comes with a free resource. It's called The Eight Core Feelings by Chip Dodd. It's an incredibly helpful tool for understanding what's actually happening under the surface when emotions run high. We talk about this during the episode, but you can download it for free at ValiantLiving.comslash episode 52. And as always, if something in this episode comes up for you or you want to reach out about someone that you love, you don't have to navigate all this alone. You can reach out to us at info at valiantliving.com or call us at 720-669-1285. All right, let's get into it. Dr. Jake Smith Jr., my guy. Hello. Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast. Thanks for doing this, man.
SPEAKER_00:You got it. So glad to be here. We've done this a couple of times before. Yeah. It's one of my favorite podcasts to come on just with you and uh always a great conversation.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I've said this to your face, so I'll say it to the public. When I came out of Valiant, when I came out of rehab, I don't remember how we reconnected. I mean, we were friends before. I think I may reach out to you or you or vice versa, I don't know. But I engaged with Plumline, your uh your company, your how would you what would you call it? Your coaching practice. And it single-handedly was the most impactful thing that I've done so far in my recovery. Um you've got a few different uh cohorts that you can go through, heart, soul, and then there's an integrated one. I did it backwards. I think I started with integrated because that's what we that's what you had available. Yeah. Um but and we're today we're gonna talk about like holiday season stuff, but I just wanted to say thank you, man, because like the aftercare when you're coming out of treatment and you're learning how to walk again, you feel like a toddler. And you're crying to people in the you know, Walmart checkout line. You just your emotions are all over the place, and you're re-establishing a brand new life and a brand new thing. And you've been such a great friend to me, but also a mentor, a coach, a guide, all those other things. And um so Plum Line, I I want people to go check it out. I'll link to it and all that kind of stuff because you can do, I think virtual too, right? Sure. Virtual stuff. Yep, we did it's virtual cohorts. It's such an amazing, and actually, could you just give us a little synopsis of what Plumline is before we jump into today's topic?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Well, in particular with recovery stuff, it's like you know, step one has got to be sobriety, abstinence, like you know, you that's where you have to start. Right. And then becomes this long, lifelong process of growth and and development. And like, let's go live our lives uh in this in this new and and healthy way, building on the foundation of what that great recovery work did. And that's really what Plumline tries to do is partner with the recovery process, kind of on the growth and development side of it, right? So, what we specialize in is something called individuation, which is a concept from the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung. And what individuation is, is the process of becoming who you truly are. So, what all plumb line work, whether it's individual coaching, whether it's uh the living with heart cohort, the discover your soul cohort, what it's all ultimately about is how do we draw you out? How do we draw out this person that's in there that God made you to be? And uh, once you can get at that, once you get a hold of that, all of a sudden you know what your life's about, right? Yeah. And that's very empowering.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Jamie and I just came probably what two weeks ago and sat down with you and just had this same type of conversation. Like, hey, help guide us through like how are we meant to use our best time and effort and energy based on who God has created us and wired us to be, and you walked us through our core values, our family values, and we're gonna bring our family back in over the holidays, all sit down and just talk through like we were designed and made a certain way. And I I even love how sometimes you get on your soapbox about the um the uh what's the phrase? I hate it, but it's uh oh gosh, I just blanked on it. Um be the best you best version of yourself.
SPEAKER_00:I hate that phrase. Become the best version of yourself or something. Yeah, that's really when people say that, they're really talking about become the idealized version of yourself, you know, because it's steeped in other people's expectations or the culture's expectations, society's expectations, your church's expectations, whatever it is. And that that couldn't be further from the true self. It's kind of like here's this person I'm supposed to be, or here's how I'd be if I was perfect or something. That's typically what the best version of yourself is about. I want to help people become the true version of themselves, you know, and that's that's a very different thing.
SPEAKER_01:It's a very different thing. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of places we could go with this conversation. Who knows where it'll end up? But I did want to specifically talk about we're in the holiday season, and when this podcast comes out, people will be gearing up to have a bunch of family parties, family, you know, holiday parties. It's I our family loves the holiday season. It's a joyful season for us. And what's also true is there are so many things around the holidays that can trigger all kinds of emotions.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And if we don't have the right tools, you know, it can be it can lead us into a destructive place or it can lead us into a really present, really grounded, you know, really healthy place if we, I think if we approach it, you know, in in the best way. And so I wanted to dive into that a little bit because most of the people listening or watching this episode are gonna be um a lot of them are clinicians, you know, that we we partner with, a lot of them are our families, spouses of addicts, or the addict themselves. And so the goal would be, man, if we could help people navigate the holiday season in a in a safe and a healthy way, um I think that would be a really beautiful thing. So let's just start high-level. Why do you think the holidays, specifically Christmas, New Year's, why do you think that just conjures up so much emotion and triggers? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, uh, or do you not feel that way?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, I feel that way. Um, you know, when we talk about, you know, emotions, feelings, um, a lot of times kind of where triggers, you know, kind of live. Um, we're we're kind of talking about neurologically speaking, this part of the brain back here that's kind of right above the brain stem, uh, the limbic system, you know. And there's a couple of things that's true about that part of the brain when I'm kind of back there experiencing life or living life, you know, kind of disintegrated from that part of the brain, which tends to happen in the holidays. And one of the things that's true is it doesn't recognize time. You know, like there's there's no time back here. And so that's why something that happened to me when I was eight or ten might as well have happened yesterday, you know, in terms of the way my brain thinks about it. Really? And um and will inform the way that I interpret what's happening right in front of me, you know. Oh, I know what that facial expression means. Oh, I I've heard that tone of voice before, you know, those types of things. And since the brain only has one job to do, like keep me safe, keep me alive, um, it's going to heavily um allow the wounds of my life, the hurts of my life, um to wire it in such a way that it promises, so it thinks I'll never be hurt like that again. So we go home for the holidays and all of these complex, painful experiences, whether they the hurt is the kind of hurt that was done to me, or my hurt was the kind of hurt where stuff was withheld from me, things that I needed, nurture from a parent or something. Yeah, being seen, being honored, being cared for. Um, my brain is gonna tell me I'm not safe around the holidays. I'm at risk of being hurt emotionally, mentally, you know, sometimes physically, spiritually, manipulated or something. And so all of that just comes right back to the surface and becomes real in my lived experience around the holidays. And so I'm on high alert.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And uh all my all those old wounds are just get pressed on, and it it literally can turn me into a nine-year-old little boy again. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And it just painful reminders of loss. I know during the holidays, my wife definitely feels the sadness of the loss of her father, you know, and that's something, and and I've noticed in myself that if I don't honor the emotions that come up, man, they come out sideways. That's right. Bad. Like I'll all of a sudden I'm yelling at the kids for no reason, or I'm irritable, or even we had a great Thanksgiving, and I came home and Jamie said, Hey, are you are you are you good? Are you okay? You need to process anything? And I've I felt okay, but I just had some wounds, some things that came up, and I wasn't addressing them, I wasn't paying attention to them. I guess my question would be when you when you come into these settings, how do we develop the the aware the self-awareness to say, hey, this is actually what's happening right now? Yes. Does that question make sense? Yeah, because I've lived most of my life and just would be angry and don't know why. And I'm like, I'm actually really sad because of this. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So a great a great tool to help with that is something called affect labeling. Okay. F-F E-C-T labeling. And that's just the science of learning to um recognize and name the feelings that are true inside of me, you know, that are showing up in inside of me. And if I can name what I feel, I can trace that to what I need, what my heart needs. And if I can figure out what my heart needs, I can take responsibility to ensure my needs are gonna get met in a healthy way. And the empowering part of that is I'm not gonna hang the responsibility of my feelings and needs onto the people around me. Okay. Unhealthy relationships tend to do that. I'm feeling lonely, I'm feeling hurt, I'm feeling sad, and that's on you. And you got to change the way you interact with me, the way you speak to me, the way you behave towards me, so that I don't have to have these feelings and these needs of my heart don't emerge. So we go around, you know, either codependently kind of managing people, um, you know, to control that in some way, or counterdependently, like demanding other people, you know, kind of sync up and and and you know, take on the responsibility, take on the role of making sure that I don't have feelings and that my needs don't get exposed. Once I'm willing to do that for myself, it's like like I can take care of me. I don't need anyone else to be responsible for me or take care of me. I'm not eight anymore, I'm not nine anymore. I'm a grown-up and I can take care of me. The operational process to do that is like, man, I'm I'm here for Christmas or whatever it is. I'm gathered with my family, all my stuff is getting pressed on. It's like for me to be able to go, wow, it's really scary for me to be in this room right now. You know, well, the need of fear is protection, help, and refuge.
SPEAKER_01:Give an example. Why so you said it would be really scary to be in this room right now. If I'm sitting on the kind of the other side and I hear that, my brain goes, Well, why would it? I'm with my family. Why would it be why would it be scary?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, it's important to note that we don't get to choose the feelings that show up. Yeah. Like, you know, it's like I didn't choose to be afraid. You know, I like I am or I'm not, I'm scared or I'm not. It hurt or it didn't. I feel lonely or I don't feel lonely. I'm sad or I'm not sad. Like I I don't get to choose that, right? The only choice I have is what do I do with the feelings that are true for me? You know, uh, am I kind of suppressing them, kind of coping them away? Um, or am I open, you know, to allow the feelings that show up to be there? Am I willing to name them, explore what they're about, which is the question you just asked, you know, what what's this fear about for me? So depending on the feeling, like we we need to understand something about what these feelings are definitively. So fear is the feeling that shows up for me when I sense I may be at risk, or someone I love may be at risk of being harmed in one of four ways: emotionally harmed, mentally harmed, certainly physically harmed or spiritually harmed. Okay. And the feeling doesn't have to be rational. Like that's a rational thought. I'm a grown-up, I'm strong, I'm here with my family, you know, what is there to be afraid of? Feelings are not often not rational, you know. And I find in my work, if we dig enough, if we peel enough layers, it'll always be rational. Like the feeling will always make sense, right? We just get back to the story of kind of what the brain's doing when it's like, oh, you you're you may not be safe right now. So um, there's all kinds, you know, there's two kinds of hurt. We talk about fear of being harmed. And I just mentioned it a little bit earlier in this podcast. There's two kinds of hurt. There's the hurt that's done to me, and that's the kind that's a little bit easier to name, perhaps. I I was physically abused, sexually abused, you know, something like that. But then the second kind of hurt is the hurt that's the brand of hurt where I needed something, nurture from a parent or something, and what I needed was withheld from me. Okay, and that that kind of hurt can be a lot harder to name or to point out. Um and it's insidious in that way because some of the most confused people I work with are the people, you know, not the people who went like, yeah, my dad used to beat me when I'd bring home a C on my report card or something. It's like, whoa, like, okay, we know how to treat that, you know. But like, it's more the person who goes, I had a a warm room in my home in the winter and a cool room in the summer, and we ate dinner together as a family, and we went to church, and um, I had birthday parties and spend the nights, and and Christmas was like a gathering experience, and dad paid for college, and like you know, so why am I so pissed off all the time? You know, right? Why do I feel so insecure about who I am and what my you know, like so that kind of hurt, that second kind of hurt, what was withheld from me is is really, really painful too. And sometimes we re-enter the context or the scenes, uh, you know, with these characters in my story around the holidays, and the brain goes on high alert, and it's like, look, they're they're still dismissing you. They're they're still objectifying you and using you um to prop them up or to play your role in the family that dismisses the dignity of you as an individual, as a as a human being. You're gonna now once again be required to roll over, let yourself go, um, agree, you know, with you know, whatever the sentiments are that are being you know expressed. And it can be very, very lonely in that way, it can be very, very painful in that way, it can be very, very scary, you know, in that way.
SPEAKER_01:That's super helpful. As you're talking, I I was remembering a time early in recovery from I still feel early in recovery, but earlier in recovery where we were in a session of sorts and um naming the emotion that I felt was I had suppressed emotions for so long, that was really difficult for me to even be able to name what which one is it. Yeah, and I know there's a feelings wheel with a bunch, bunch of them, but there's eight core ones that I know that you use a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um actually in every session, it's on the it's right there on the floor. That's right. What's helpful for me is I needed eight and no more at first. Yeah, like I needed to be able to find on that chart which one of these eight because all the other were it was just too much, I couldn't. And I remember early on I was feeling apathy, yeah, and I don't even think I would have named it that way. And I I called it something else, and you said, I think what I think you might be lonely. And I was like, lonely, no way. I got friends all over this town. What are you talking about? You know, like and I didn't say that out loud, but I'm thinking there's no way I'm I'm not a lonely guy. Yeah, and as you started unpacking it, man, I felt like lump in my throat. Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm lonely. Yeah, and it's because the impairment of that was was apathy, and it wasn't until you were able to help me name that that I was actually able to say, oh, there is a need here that I that I can fill in a healthy way. I can actually, I know how to get connection and healthy like attunement now, but that's really what I'm I'm longing for. So I might even like as a download on this episode, attach some sort of, I'm sure you've got some sort of chart or something where someone could look at. Now, I would I would recommend someone work with someone like yourself to kind of help guide through that. But I think it's helpful just to see even a chart of Eight core feelings and be like, which one of these am I feeling right now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's right. Um, that chart you're you're talking about, the eight core feelings, that's from a guy named Dr. Chip Dodd. Uh he's got a great book uh called Voice of the Heart. And he kind of defines those eight feelings in that book, talks about the importance of each of the feelings, the gift that those feelings want to lead us to. So that's definitely worth, and I'm happy to kind of give you that fully built-out chart because, like we talked about, when those eight core feelings show up for me, and he he would call those like the primary feelings, right? It's not that we only have eight feelings, but it's like these are the primary colors, you know. There's more colors than red, yellow, and blue. If I start mixing red, yellow, and blue together in some different ways, you come up with millions of shades of color, right? Well, the feelings work like that too. It's like maybe these are the eight primary, you know, feelings. You start mixing a few of those together in different ways, you come up with billions of emotional experiences that are possible, right? But the value of getting back to the core ingredients that's creating this emotional experience, right, um, is essential because if I can get back to the core ingredients, that's where I really got a good shot to name what I need, you know? And so that fully built out chart will show that. It'll show the eight core feelings, and the list right to the right is uh a list called need that associates with the feeling that I just named. And then there's another list um to the right of that that's called gift. And that's why feelings are good. They actually all have a gift, according to Dodd, that these feelings want to lead me to. If I'm willing to name them, feel them, explore them, get the need met in a healthy way, they lead me to this gift. But on the other side, if I if I'm choosing not to feel them, and we don't like to feel them because they are physically uncomfortable in our body. Right? When we talk about feelings, we're not just talking about something conceptual. Like we're talking about physical sensations that I don't like. It doesn't feel good. The pit in my stomach or the rolling, you know, kind of in my in my in my gut, the the burn in my sternum or the tight chest, or sometimes a almost a vacuous sensation in my chest, or heaviness on my chest. You just mentioned one, the lump in the throat, or the constricted breathing, you know, tightness around my eyes and ears, headaches, disoriented sensations in my head. These are the physical expression or manifestation of those eight feelings fear, hurt, lonely, shame, guilt, you know, et cetera. And we don't like how they feel. So it's very natural to go, I how do I get rid of this? And ironically, we intuitively think the way I get rid of this is by kind of ignoring it, uh, dismissing it somehow. And the the problem is if I do that, the feeling does not go away. It impairs, it kind of devolves. And that's what you were talking about a minute ago, and you said, man, when I do that, they they end up coming out sideways and in damaging and harmful ways. So um, the list to the left that everybody's gonna see on that chart is the list of impairments. It's like if I if I ignore that fear, where does it go? If I ignore that loneliness, where does it go? And in this case, to apathy or indifference. Like, I don't care. Right. I just don't care what anybody thinks about me. You know what? Well, that's just impaired loneliness. Wow. And then the the list to the left of that, I I call it the curse of the unfelt feeling. If I stay in that impairment long enough, the curse of the unfelt or unnamed feeling is going to manifest. And that stuff's really ugly.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and not to get too far off topic, but the one that that comes up for me a lot is in anger. Anger is probably the most easily accessible of the eight for me. I get there quick. Um, there's always, you know, isn't there's always something beneath anger? How would you say that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's so the eight feelings are anger, hurt, fear, sad, lonely, shame, guilt, and glad. And of that eight, there's two on the list that are never alone. One of the others will kind of always be attached to it or partnered to it. And that can change, you know, depending on kind of what the anger's about. Um, but anger is one of those that's never alone. You'll never just be angry. It'll always be angry plus something else. So anger in an accession, I would say anger and what else? You know, it's like, well, anger and fear, you know, or anger and hurt, or anger and sadness. The other one, incidentally, that's never alone is glad. You know, we'll we'll never just be glad. It'll always be glad and like, well, glad and what else? Glad and shame. Yeah, you know, glad and fear, right, you know, right. Glad and hurt, you know, it's whatever it is.
SPEAKER_01:Man, there's so I'm trying to there's so much I want different places I want to go with this because I love this um conversation. Um, but you were talking a minute ago, don't don't you think that's potentially why we addicts during the holiday season relapse is so much higher? Yeah. Because you were saying earlier, like we're just looking. Yeah, most of us escape to this unhealthy addiction because it helps us not feel.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And when these big feelings come up around the holidays, we're either around families or we're at a lot of holiday parties, or you know, maybe it's even shame of man, I remember acting a fool at last year's party or or temptations, you know, I got all this stuff around me. Yeah, and I don't have these, I don't have the this, I don't know how to name what's going on. So I just got to get out of this pain. So I'm gonna have one, I'll just take a little sip, or I'm just gonna, you know, get on my phone for a minute. I'm gonna take the edge off a little bit because I'm really dysregulated. I mean, is that do you think that's part of why we see a spike in the holiday season?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, 100%. You know, I I don't I don't know how Valiant talks about, you know, addiction definitively. Um, in my own personal study and pursuit, um, the opposite of addiction is connection. You know, it's not sobriety. It's not the opposite of addiction. The opposite is connection.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we say that a lot at Valiant. Okay, good. So we're synced up. We're on the same page, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so what that means is a willingness to connect instead of you know, turn to my addiction, a willingness to be in relationship involves a willingness to have my feelings. Right? There is no connection without a willingness to feel what I feel and let you feel what you feel and care about the needs that are connected to those feelings. And that's that requires a lot of me, a willingness to feel and to let you feel and to care about and to honor the needs that are associated with the feelings, right? Well, my addiction is anything I choose over the discomfort and the difficulty of having my own feelings, letting you have yours and caring about those needs, right? Connection is hard and so too hard at times. And so rather than that, I'll just I'll just drink. You know, I'll just numb out all those feelings. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Uh and it could be whatever, I'll go gamble, I'll go look at pornography, I'll go whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly right. It could be religion. Wow. Right? Religious addiction. Like if if it's true that my addiction is anything I choose over relationship with you, you're too hard. This group is too hard. So I'm gonna I, you know, I'm gonna choose this thing over relationship with you, okay. Religion could very much foot that bill as well. You know, you think about somebody diagnosed with cancer, right? And instead of like feeling my sadness and my fear of the loss of the person and allowing them to feel their hurt and their sadness and being in that together, right? What do we do? Like, uh nope, we don't receive it. God is a great physician. Uh, you know, the prayer offering of faith will make the sick person well. We we reject this diagnosis. Like, they just told you they had cancer. And this weird spiritual denial where we start piling on Bible verses and spiritual cliches and platitudes is so damaging and such addictive behavior.
SPEAKER_01:Bro, I've got I'm about to come out of my skin with what you're saying, right? I mean, it is that is so powerful what you're what you're saying. And I do think I was literally just in a setting not too long ago, and a group of guys, uh it was a Christian setting, and a group the guy opened up and it was beautiful, finally opened up. And the the leader of the group, the first response was he almost shut him down and gathered everyone around him to pray. And I wanted to be like, please let him be in this, let us be in this with him for a minute. And and I I love that you're reframing that because I do think there are there are other things, even for the the traumatized spouses, betrayed like because they're gonna feel feelings too. They're listening to this, and there may not be an added, you know, addiction to a substance, but they're gonna feel big feelings during the holiday season too. And how you just describe that reframed it helps us no matter who's listening to this. There is gonna be something, whether it's alcohol or it's my small group at church, or it's going to the Christmas Eve services, or whatever it is, that if we're not careful, could how would you say, like numb that experience or it could replace connection with self, connection with God, and connection with others.
SPEAKER_00:Could replace it.
SPEAKER_01:Which which would potentially lead to what?
SPEAKER_00:Um because if someone says it's utter isolation, yeah, um uh disintegration, um, immaturity, you know, at some level if I could just reframe, like often we approach holidays or or these types of things that could be triggering and and we see it as something to survive, we see it as something to kind of conquer. Um if we could reframe it as you know in an optimistic way, it's like that's gonna be one of the greatest tools for your own growth and development that you could imagine. It's the gem to actually actually experience connection. Yeah, and to grow my own capacity for connection, which is to grow my own capacity to tolerate and bear the weight of my feelings and to hold space for other people to have their feelings with me, whether they can name them or or or not, you know. But we can actually grow or strengthen our internal infrastructure to bear the weight and tolerate our feelings, which is necessary for real, authentic, healthy, lasting relationships. Even the relationship with self, right? And so we miss all that if we kind of lean into the addictions that um will allow me to not have to feel or to get rid of the discomfort of feelings. Now, I'd like to make a caveat here, and this also answers your question of like, well, what are these tools or what are these concepts as we go into the holiday season that can help us go to that gym and get a good solid sweat in and exercise in on learning to grow my tolerance or you know for these feelings. The one thing I would say is if you're willing to do that, is you've got to be aware of something called charge. Charge. Charge. Yep. So if you imagine a scale from one to ten, and ten is like I'm about to jump off a bridge, I'm about to throw somebody off a bridge. Like I am coming unglued here. And one is like I'm completely numbed out, checked out, I'm not recognizing or noticing, I don't really feel anything, right? And then this range, okay. Well, somewhere in the middle, let's call it between a four and a seven charge. And charge is like how much energy does the group of feelings in me have? How much weight you know do they press down on me with? Okay. Well, a charge from a number four all the way up to a number seven would be a weight or an energy that is tolerable for me. Like I can bear the weight of that, I can handle how much energy those have. It might not be comfortable, right? But I can handle it. I can hold the tension of it. Seven's pretty high. It's like, ooh, I'm right on the edge here, but I can I can stay in the conversation, I can stay in the room, I'm still in control of what I say, I'm still in control of my behaviors, I'm still in control of what I do. But the moment I slip outside of that seven and I go up to like an eight, a nine, a ten, what I like to say is at an eight, nine, ten charge, that's a charge or a weight that's too much for me. I I can't tolerate the intensity of the feelings at that level. That's not me having feelings at that point. That's my feelings having me. That's when they take over. That's when they start to drive, that's when they start pushing stuff out of my mouth that misrepresents who I am. That's when they start pushing behaviors, creating behaviors that are not true to my true self, right? So we got to pay attention to that charge as we kind of do this workout of learning to tolerate and grow my capacity to have feelings. I got to notice when I'm rising. I got to notice when I'm on the cusp of slipping out of my window of tolerance, going from a seven to an eight. And the goal in those moments, the goal of this holiday season in those moments, I don't care if you're in the middle of dinner, you know, the goal is to lower the charge 100%. It's not to name the feelings at that point, it's not to explore them, it's not to figure out what I need. There is one goal and one goal only at that point. And it's like, how do I get that charge lowered back down into my window of tolerance? And methodologically, the way that you do that is by detaching in a healthy way from my feelings and from my thoughts. What does that mean? Like, how do you detach in a healthy way from your feelings and your thoughts? You get out of your head and out of your feelings and into your body through your senses, right? So it's like we've been designed by God with such amazing agency of mind. I can target my mind and my thoughts and my feelings on what I choose, right? And again, that's a muscle that I have to practice growing as well. Okay, it's not easy, but we can do it. Where do we see that in the scripture? Well, you know, we're instructed to take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ. How could we be asked to do that if God didn't design us with agency of mind? Or there's passages that say, hey, whatever is true, whatever's noble, whatever's right, whatever's pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about those things. Well, how could I be instructed to do that if I don't have agency of mind, right? So we do have this beautiful gift called agency of mind where I can choose to think about or not think about whatever I want. And that's different than suppressing or coping away feelings. That's me going, my charge is high. I need to get back down into my window of tolerance so that I can continue to do those workouts, name what I feel, figure out what I need, get that need met in a healthy way. So, what are we talking about here? We're talking about going on a walk around the block in the freezing cold, if you if you must, right? Right. But on that walk, you're not just gonna go, hey, I hey, I'm just gonna go on a quick walk around the block, whatever. It's easy to kind of get away with that. Um, you're not just gonna go on a walk and stay in your head and keep spinning and and pontificating and ruminating on what was just said or done in there.
SPEAKER_01:Right, because you could spiral yourself.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. Right. Doesn't lower the charge. You know, you're not focused on your body at that point. You're still in your head. Your body's moving, but you're you're not focused on, well, what muscles am I using right now? Feeling the cold air on my skin, smelling the smells that are in the air, listening to the sounds that are true in the place, and that getting 100% of my attention is what actually lowers the charge. But if I'm just out moving my body and walking and I'm still spinning in my head, that's not going to lower the charge. Right. Right. So the goal is to lower the charge. You have to give your full thinking, focus, concentration to the physical sensations of your body. Here's a couple of other practical things. So go on a walk around the block, is one. Go take a bath or a shower. Yeah, that's sacred space in these crammed full houses with people, you know, like there's smells in there to experience the soap, the shampoo, there's there's sensory experiences on your skin, the warm water.
SPEAKER_01:You're being present to these things.
SPEAKER_00:You're giving your full attention. Like I am experiencing life 100% through my senses in those moments. Something else you can do is like uh just go do the dishes. That's helpful. People appreciate that. And guess what? It's sensory. You feel the water, you smell the um you feel the bubbles, you know, help with prepare the meal, right?
SPEAKER_01:And see, those are great tools that also, if you're experiencing any kind of fear and anxiety about I hate to say causing a scene, because I think like what you said before, the most important thing is to get back into a healthy, healthy charge.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_01:But when you say tolerable charge, tolerable charge, yeah. But you talk about doing the dishes or helping prepare whatever, you're still engaged, still engaged, still helping out, but it's it's also serving you deeply and richly.
SPEAKER_00:And um the the last thing I'll say about this is you know, also just a couple other examples, by the way. You know, yeah, we've given a walk, bath, shower, help prepare the meal, help do the dishes. YouTube is so great to slip into your bedroom or even go in the main room and invite some people to do it with you. I like to search for beginner yoga on YouTube because I need beginner yoga. I'm not very flexible at all.
SPEAKER_01:What's it like to be able to touch your toes? That would be amazing.
SPEAKER_00:It'd be wonderful without your hamstrings exploding, it'd be great. Um, but because yoga is so hard for me, like that's a really great way for me to get into my body through my senses. Like, it's like holding that pose, it's really uncomfortable for me and allowing myself to feel that stretch or that strain. Uh, you know, it's just another easy way for me to get into my body. And again, invite some of the kids to do it with you. Invite your your your siblings, your parents, like, yeah, yeah, just come on, let's do this. But again, you're not doing yoga and you're still thinking, it's like you're giving 100% of your energy over to these sensations in your body. Anyway, there's a hundred things you can do to get out of your head and into your body through your senses. Um, but the the last thing I'll say about it is don't be surprised like when you're on your walk for five minutes and your charge is just still as high as it was. It's like don't don't think you know in an idealized way, you know, about about how effective this thing's gonna be quickly.
SPEAKER_01:Imagine you getting emails right now. Dr. Jake said this is gonna work, and I'm still pissed after my walk.
SPEAKER_00:15 minutes on a walk, and I'm still, you know, and it's like it can it can take an hour. You know? Um before that charge starts to lower. Or actually, we you can get the high charge quickly. Okay. And that's what a trigger is is I spike. Oh, okay. I was at a four and then someone said something and I went to a 10 in a in a moment, but unfortunately it doesn't work in the reverse like that. Like, you can take me an hour to get that interesting 8910 lowered back to a seven, six, five. At the very least, it'll take twenty or thirty minutes potentially. To do that. Okay. And so just be prepared for that mentally. It's like, it's like, that's the work. We talk about doing the work. It's like that's the work. It's like, all right, I'm high. I got to go on this walk. You know, I got to go take a bathroom, a shower. And this is going to be a 30-minute shower. And I am 100% working to get out of my head, out of my thoughts, out of my feelings, into my body through these senses. And I'm going to stay in the practice until that charge is like, okay, my breathing slowed down. It's deeper. Um, I'm I'm back in control of what I say and what I do. Um, and I'm ready to re-engage, re-enter the relationship.
SPEAKER_01:I would even recommend, I would love to give your thoughts, get your thoughts on this, but those of us that are early in recovery, I would recommend being really intentional with the like the checking in stuff, um, calling our sponsor, even setting it like, hey, whether I need it or not during the holidays, I'm just gonna can we just talk for five minutes every day?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The reason why I say that is for me at least, if I don't, if I'm not intentional with checking in, or if Jamie and I don't check in and put it on the calendar, I'll sweep it under, I'll be like no, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. And then stuff starts coming aside. But if we have an intentional time every day at the end of the day through the holiday season, just to be like, hey, let's check in with ourselves real quick. Let's look at these eight feelings. What's coming up for us right now? And like pausing and doing that, it's it feels a little more proactive than reactive of like waiting until because for me at least, and maybe not everyone's this way, a lot of times when I actually get to where I'm feeling it, it's yeah, I'm pretty dysregulated. Yeah, that's right. As opposed to saying, actually, I don't know, I did have some sadness come up today. Let's kind of get out in front of it. Um I don't know. I don't know what are your thoughts on that as far as just being being proactive with checking in during the holidays.
SPEAKER_00:It's like exercising, you know, it's like a healthy person, you know, four or five times a week is gonna go to the gym, go on a walk, go on a jog, like they're gonna do it consistently to just exercise and stay in shape. And so what you're suggesting is a great exercise for the heart. You know, it's like uh learning to turn our attention to our own hearts, what we're feeling, what we're experiencing, putting words to it, you know, labeling it, saying it out loud to another human being where there's attunement, you know, uh a place to process and say, here's what I think these feelings are about, what do you think you need? Like this is great exercise for the heart.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna take a quick little side trip because you triggered a thought for me. When we check in in your plumb line groups, the one thing you guide us to do as participants is we hold space for that person to say what they're feeling and where they're at. We also before we respond, we ask them if it's okay for us to give feedback. Yeah. So I'm imagining it could be a you know, uh husband-wife scenario where there's whatever. If you're like me, my codependency peaks up and I want to fix my wife's whatever she's feeling in that moment. Well, maybe we can do what I've learned from you is if I'll just kind of hold space there, I'll a lot of times I don't even need to say anything. Yeah, I just need to receive it. That's right. If there is something, I'll I follow your model and I'll say, Hey, are you open to some feedback? And then this is huge. I've learned from you. The feedback is not about her.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_01:It's about what come up, what came up for me and what's going on inside of me that you know right. It's not open to some feedback. Here's what I think you should do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Are you open to some feedback? Here's what's going on inside of me. And the beautiful thing about that is no one ever feel, at least in my experience, the likelihood of someone feeling attacked, like a project trying to be fixed, mostly what happens is they feel less alone. Yeah. They feel there, there's a higher degree of connection. So uh anything else you'd add? I just wanted to mention that.
SPEAKER_00:I would say, I'd say there's two things there, like even like a one-step, two-step process. So when someone else is showing up, you know, kind of with feelings, um, step one often, even before feedback, is is just curiosity. Be curious with the person. And and in doing so, you're you're you're helping them reflect and process what's actually going on inside of them. But secondly, you're in a process of discovering them yourself. Like, I want to know you. I wanna, I wanna um, you know, gain an understanding of like what it's like to be you and what you're carrying and what you're facing. So there's a um a psychiatrist, uh brilliant psychiatrist out in the DC area. His name's Kurt Thompson, uh, wrote a bunch of great books. Um, he's got this quote curiosity is loving. You know, it's like what does it look like to really love somebody in a way that they feel loved by you? According to Thompson, the answer to that is curiosity. Just be curious with them. And one of the things that I'll tell you, you know, we're at Plumline we have a um a coaching certification product where we train other coaches to be Plumb Line coaches. And one of the things that I teach them is to ask what questions. Questions that start with the word what. What questions are way better than questions that start with the word why? You know, why are you feeling like that? You know, like why questions can feel very shaming, uh, why questions are next to impossible to answer? Why'd you hit your sister? He didn't have a frontal lobe, he didn't know why he hit his sister. You know, it's like, oh no, you know, it's like, so why questions aren't great? How questions can be good, but they tend to bypass the heart and get us up into our head, problem solving strategic. Well, how can we do this differently next time? Well, we can, you know, like now we're we're kind of more intellectualizing than we are engaging in a heart level. But what questions? You know, what's that like for you? Um, you know, what what's the impact of you know what what they said or or or what they did, you know? Um, what's at risk if that doesn't that dynamic doesn't change? You know, what opportunities? Yeah, just these what questions.
SPEAKER_01:All right, here's a real real life scenario. This is I'm gonna get some free let's roleplay some free therapy here.
SPEAKER_00:Let's roleplay.
SPEAKER_01:I'm going on a trip next week. I really want my wife to go with me. Yeah, she doesn't want to go. Yeah. My first instinct would be to say, well, why would why don't you want to go?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like it's we I've got my companion pass on Southwest. It costs you nothing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Say in the hotel room, I got a car. Like, why, you know, and I'm I'm not, I know, you know, I know her and all those things, and I'm not I'm not upset, but as a as an example, yeah, how could I reframe that to make her feel like I'm being more curious? What's what's a what question there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. Well, number one, um it's so vulnerable to show up and and knock on the door with the heart, okay, right? But I would I would probably begin by kind of bringing my heart to her first and just say, hey, I I'm I'm really sad that um we're not gonna be able to share the experience of this trip together. Um, and sadness is that feeling that rises in us. It's the honoring feeling. It points to what we care about most when that thing we care about is either lost or is missing. Uh I'm really, really sad that we're not gonna get to share this experience as this trip. I would really um enjoy and love uh to share that experience with you. What's what's your perspective on the trip? I know you said you don't want to go. Like um what's what's coming up for you when you imagine taking that that trip? You know, and just begin to knock on that door.
SPEAKER_01:That feels way less shaming than why why don't you want to go?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, why don't you want to go for a trip with me? Don't you want to grow closer together? You know, but like it's like like what's you know, what's what are your thoughts around around the trip that that makes it seem disinteresting to you? Like, you know, what are what's the what's the source of that, you know? And she'll come up with some things and then that'll lead to another what question. You know, what would make the trip seem more appealing to you? You know? Um, what would be a you know a way that we can maybe achieve this closeness, you know, apart from that trip, if that's not something that we're gonna get to do it. Then you're getting your own need met in a healthy way. It's like, well, I maybe the trip's not gonna be the methodology, but the sadness is I I want this closeness with you, so I still care about that, even if you're not gonna go on this trip. And the trick of the whole thing is once again, remember what what emotional maturity and health is all about is I'm responsible for my feelings and needs and no one else. Right. So when I'm opening the conversation with I'm really sad that I'm gonna miss this opportunity to go on this trip with you, there's gonna be a temptation to want to make her responsible for my sadness. My sadness is on you. I'm sad because of you, right? And you're not going on this trip, therefore I have to be sad. And, you know, if that's kind of the shadow mission underneath this thing, like you need to be responsible for what I feel, and you need to be sure you're doing things that don't make me feel this way. So you need to go on this trip so I don't have to be sad anymore or something. That can be no part of it in terms of the internal motivation and drive. That's just true. You're not responsible for my sadness, but the I am sad because I care about us and this, and like, you know, what's your thought process you know that led you to um that's not a trip I'm interested in?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, one thing that Jamie and I have been doing together, just because we're both in codependency recovery and all that stuff, and trying to learn, you know, she does this for me a lot, and I try to do it for her, but she'll even put a little disclaimer, like, hey, I need to feel I need to share with you how I'm feeling, and I don't I don't need you to to fix it. Um but she does she says in a way that's like I don't need you to fix it, it's more like you know, it lets me kind of put my defense down. Oh, okay. Yeah, which has been really helpful because immediately I always want to go into to fix it mode. Um that's super helpful. Can I ask you one? Do you have time for another couple questions? Okay, this is phenomenal. I'm like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I got first of all, I gotta That feels good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Big affirmation guy, but I'm just sitting here like, man, this is so good. It's so helpful. And I'm like, I gotta use that that I gotta use that tactic before Jamie hears the episode to try to get her to go with me on the trip this week.
SPEAKER_00:My narcissism would be great. Yeah, here's how I can coerce you. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Help me know how to better manipulate my wife into doing what I want her to do. Yeah, um, I I do want to talk about boundaries for just a second. Um, that's that's big during the holiday season for people like like me that who really wrestle with codependency and trying to control and all this kind of stuff. Setting those boundaries is sometimes very difficult. Yeah. Um people pleasers like myself, it's tough because you're trying to do what everyone wants you to do during the season and show up to all the parties and all that kind of stuff. And sometimes you just don't have it. You know, it's just or it's just not a maybe going home is not the best move this Christmas. I don't know. You know, how how can you help us think through setting boundaries?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I think a little bit differently, I think about boundaries than some people, and you mentioned that there are several practitioners perhaps listening to this podcast that may disagree with me and would love for them to uh kind of weigh in on you know on the Instagram feed or whatever and and give their point of view as well. But for me, um you you really only need boundaries in a relationship that you want. It's like I, you know, the relationships that I choose, because I don't I'm not required to have a relationship with anybody, including my parents, including my siblings, including my family you know, like I get to choose who I want to be in a relationship with, and certainly safety and um you know, connection has something you know to do with that decision that I have to make. But once I choose the relationship, this is someone I want a relationship with. Now we need to have boundaries, and that's any relationship needs boundaries at some level, not just the ones that are like pressing in on me or threatening like you know, it's like any relationship that's healthy needs boundaries. And for me, here's what a boundary is. Okay. What do I need to put in place to keep myself safe so that I can have a relationship with you? That's a boundary. It's it's like I want a relationship with you, so I need to put some things in place to keep myself safe so that I can have a relationship with you. Right? That's what empowers a relationship is a boundary. Now, a couple other things that may be unorthodox about my thoughts on boundaries. Number one, um, they're not designed to control anybody. Like I'm not putting a boundary in place to tell you what you can and can't do. My boundary is actually not for you as much as it's for me. Okay. It's it's me limiting myself to feel safe in a relationship with you. What are some examples of that? Well, maybe I go home for the holidays, and one of my boundaries is I don't talk politics with my family. Now I can't control whether or not they talk politics. I'm probably gonna get a rise in that charge as they do, but a boundary is I'm gonna limit myself to engaging in that conversation. I don't talk politics. I'm not saying that needs to be your boundary, but that's just an example of one that that it can be. Even when they try to pull you into it, what do you think? Like, I'm just listening. Well, I know you have an opinion on it. I'm enjoying just listening. You guys proceed. Well, I don't understand why you're not laying in. You know, you're like, this time I just want to listen. You know, you just like you don't even have to like a lot of times I hear people need to create, like, establish the boundary with the person. Hey, I'm coming home for Christmas, and just so you know, I'm drawing a boundary. I won't be talking politics with you guys. That a lot of times can stir up more and poke the hornet's nest more than than you even need to. I don't actually believe you have to establish some boundaries, some of you do, but a lot of boundaries, I don't even have to inform the other person that it's there.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You don't need to go around declaring it, declaring your boundaries of the open. You know, I can I can just have it myself and and uphold it myself. Like I'm just not gonna engage in this. I'm not gonna talk religion or theology over, you know, the holidays. I you know, I can't control you guys doing that, but it'd be and it'd be inappropriate for me to demand, and no one else can either.
SPEAKER_01:You know, it's it's like you're just trying to control at that at that point. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:This is for me. Other boundaries that that may be uh possible, limiting myself on the time that I'm there, perhaps. Okay. Hey, we're all getting together, you know, for five days, and we're all gonna be staying in the same place. We're all going to grandma and grandpa's house, and all the cousins are gonna sleep together, and we're all staying in the same place, and we're we're five days, and we've got this great plan. We're going here, we're going there, we're having these meals, we're, you know. And maybe a boundary I have for myself is I think I got three in me. Good solid three. I got a solid three, and two of those are gonna be travel days. You know, it's like I'm showing up right day one, I'm staying a full day, uh, sleeping the second night, and I'm going home day three. And that's what I got. So maybe the boundary is hey mom, hey dad, um, really excited to get together. Uh, I know you're doing a five-day thing, but um, we're available for three this year.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And just be ready for all the bobbin and we're gonna be Jake, how how dare you?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, how unkind like, don't you know this is the only time we get together all year long?
SPEAKER_00:Oh man, you know, I do, and that's why I'm so looking forward to it. What we've got to give this year, though, is just the three days, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, why do you like you you own your own business or you have the time off? Like, why wouldn't you want to take it from me? Three days is what we're willing to give.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, Aunt Marge, she's getting up there, and this might be the last time you ever get to spend time with her.
SPEAKER_00:Really excited to see Aunt Marge over those three days, you know. But we're, you know, three days is what, you know, we've got some stuff that we want to do. It's not unkind as well.
SPEAKER_01:That's not unloving.
SPEAKER_00:Not unkind, not unloving. Uh again, it's it's actually supporting, and again, you don't have to tell the person this. You're gonna get into a huge argument conversation that you don't want to be in, and you're gonna put yourself at risk and in the relationship at risk. But just to be able to say, you know, to in your own mind, the way you frame it is this boundary of I'm only gonna be there for three days at a five is actually supporting the sustainability of the relationship because again, it's what you know you need in order to keep yourself safe and not grow resentful, bitter from what happens when you're there five days and it's usually days four and five that things start to unravel or like whatever, you know. And so it's like it's actually, I'm actually advocating for and protecting and investing in the relationship by only coming for three days instead of five. Again, you're not gonna tell the person that necessarily because they I don't know if they can hear that or if they would agree with you, but in your own mind, it's like this is what I'm doing. And you just kind of say, like, this is what we've got to give. I've even, you know, you could even get to a point with somebody where they're like, they keep pushing and pushing and pushing, and you could say something like, Well, gosh, it sounds like it'd be really disruptive for us to only come for three days instead of five. If you think it's better, we can not come at all. That would make me feel really sad because I actually want to be with you and celebrate with you guys this Christmas. But if it's gonna be too too disruptive, we can we can not come. Would that be preferred? And then, of course, at that point, you're either gonna get one of two answers, you're gonna get like, well, no, I we want you to come, you know, okay, great. Well, three days is what we got then, you know, or they're gonna use that to manipulate you and and kind of cut you off and like, yeah, it's better if you just don't come. It's like, oh gosh, like, well, that hurts, and I'm super sad about that. And hey, let me know if you change your you don't take that bait.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like, let me know if you change your mind.
SPEAKER_01:Um, you know, I'll probably they're they're at a 10 in a charge, and in a few hours, they might count calm down, but no, we would really love for you to come for those three days.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's right. Hey, let me know if you change your mind. I'll actually wait a couple days before I tell my wife and the kids or whatever it is, or before I make other plans. If you're single or something, I'll I'll wait a couple days before I make other plans. Um so let me know if you if you change your mind um if I don't hear from you in a couple days saying that the three days is okay, I'll make other plans and super sad about that. Yeah. You know, and it's like, you know, that's what it looks like to hold the boundary. Right. Only harder than creating a boundary for yourself, a limitation for yourself, is to hold it, right? Right. Not cave to these manipulative tactics or these demands or or whatever it is. Yeah. That's another example of kind of a boundary. And then again, another one is like uh, hey, I'm coming, but I'm I'm not gonna stay.
SPEAKER_01:That's a big one. I'm not gonna stay. Oh no, you're you don't don't you don't need to pay for a hotel room. You don't get an Airbnb, we got a guest room.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00:And I find that's that one's the easiest to to answer. You know, it's it's kind of like uh, hey, I've I've grown to a place in my life where I just like to really have my own space and kind of be in control of my own environment. And um that's something that's really important to me. Yeah. And can't wait to be together during the day, during mealtimes on these events that we're doing. It's gonna be a blast. But I just I'm at a spot in my life where I really need, you know, to go home and sleep in a the the quiet environment of my own room, my own bed. Like that's that's actually important to me these days, you know. And then you've got a place too that you can, again. When you're feeling triggered, when you're feeling uh eight, nine, ten charge, you can escape to that. You can escape to that. Like and and make it not weird. It's like, hey, I gotta run back to the hotel for a second. I got something there.
SPEAKER_01:You know, whatever it is. Just get some downtime. Yeah, just get out of there. So okay. Last last topic real quick. I want to talk to we had a lot of you know betrayed partners, trauma survivors that listen to this. Yeah, holidays, fear starts coming up. Um and a lot of the fear is around making sure that they're the person that they love is safe and okay, but also what is this gonna mean for me if they relapse? I mean, just you can imagine all the different fears that come come up during the holidays. If you were sitting across the table from someone now having coffee with them, and they're saying, Jake, I'm really afraid, you know, this this holiday, yeah. Um what so-and-so might do, how do I help keep them safe? How do I, you know, but I'm also scared that what if they relapse, all that kind of stuff. What would you what would you say to that person?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, I would say the need of fear is protection, help, and refuge. So we we've got to figure out what protection, help, and refuge can be established ahead of time as we step into that. Okay. And then I might use uh one of numerous tools, one of which I call the the buckets of control. Um, I want to say I learned this the first time from a guy named Mike Foster, who's got a great framework called Seven Primal Questions. He's he's a he's a great uh coach out in San Diego, uh California area. But um the three buckets of control we might use to establish some of that protection, help, and refuge. And the three buckets are bucket one is full control. So what's the protection, help, and refuge I can create and establish that I'm in full control of? Okay. The second bucket is partial control. So I can kind of do my side of the street stuff, but it's still gonna be dependent on the other person or other people to kind of uphold their end with these protection, help, and control things. And then there's a bucket called no control, right? Naming the things that I have no control of as we step into that, namely whether or not somebody relapses or something like that. I really have no control over that. So we would just go through each of those buckets. And if you're listening to this podcast, I would have you do that. Start with the full control bucket. It's like, what do you have full control of in terms of protection, help, and refuge, keeping yourself safe that you can put in place, that you can establish ahead of time. You talked about setting up five minutes-a-day calls with your sponsor, those types of things, right? Checking in together, uh, having that sounding board in place. You know, I'm in full control of that. Like I can, I can establish some type of a rhythm like that. Um, I'm in full control of uh when I go to an 8, 9, 10, like kind of, you know, kind of lowering my charge and going on these walks. I'm in full control of where I stay over the weekends. So anyway, what are these things that I'm in full control of that I am fully empowered and I can do for myself? Okay. And that gets the lion's share of your focus and energy and effort. Okay, because I'm in full control of that. Then there's some things like what am I in partial control of? You know, I can have conversations, list some expectations, list some hopes and longings with the person or the people. Uh, but at the end of the day, I I can have that conversation, but I can't ultimately control how they're gonna respond to it, react to it, if they're gonna be willing to be involved, those types of things. But what are the things that I can just control my side of the street and surrender the rest? It's like I'll own what's mine and then I gotta let you do what you're gonna do. You know? And then the no control bucket is the stuff that's to be fully surrendered. It's like I'm not gonna try to control this outcome. And those are the things that become a matter of prayer. Yeah, I gotta trust somebody or something bigger than me with this. Yeah. And it becomes a matter of of just prayer.
SPEAKER_01:So good. Yeah. Final word, man. What's your what's your hope? What's your what's your dream prayer for this holiday season for our friends that may be struggling or maybe they're doing great, but they they're coming into this season with some apprehension?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:If we're in January, mid-January and we're looking back on this season, what's what's your desired?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would sum it up in one word, and it would be presence. Like, what would it look like to go through this holiday season fully present? Happiness comes from presence. And presence comes from experiencing life through your senses. So if I'm open to what I feel, like those physical sensations in my body with those feelings, and I'm connected to what that's about, and I got me. I can figure out what I need in that. I can work to get my own needs met in a healthy way. I don't need anyone else to be responsible for that. But also, even our sensory, you know, stuff, like smelling what I smell makes me present. The cider cooking on the stove, the the fire burning in the fireplace, you know, the candle that's lit the Christmas tree uh aroma. Like letting myself experience that and giving that my attention, the warmth of the fire, the warmth of the blanket, the cushion of the couch, the senses on my skin, you know, um, what I see, the sparkling of the lights, the twinkling of the star on top of the tree, the dancing fire again in the fireplace, or the dancing flame of the candle, you know, the people that I'm with, like really opening my eyes to see them, the tastes that are so great that come along, the sounds and listening deeply and experiencing, accepting the sounds that are true in my environment. Like this is how we get present. And if we can learn to get out of our head and stop futurizing and catastrophizing, stop going back to the past where that thing was said or done, and just be in the moment that's real today. Happiness comes from that. And my hope would be we get through the Christmas season, we look back and go, man, I was just so present to all of it. That is a very empowered and grounded way to live your life.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast. Jake, thank you again just for your honesty and your wisdom and just the way you can consistently bring compassion and clarity to really tough conversations. We're grateful for the work you're doing over at Plumline. Uh, you can check Jake out at goplumline.com. I'm just grateful for the voice that he brings to families navigating recovery. And listen, if you're listening to this today or and the holidays feel heavy or triggering or complicated, I want you to hear this clearly that struggling during this season does not mean you're failing. It just means you're human and support matters. So if you're an addict, preparation, boundaries, and connection they can make the real difference. And if you're a loved one, your care for yourself, it's not selfish, it's essential. And that's why I really encourage you, if you haven't already, to go back and listen closely to this last part of the episode where we talk specifically about how loved ones can stay grounded and supported during the holidays. Don't forget to download your free 8 Core Feelings resource by chip dot at ValiantLiving.com/slash episode 52. It's a simple tool, but I use it all the time. It's a powerful one, especially during emotionally charged seasons. And if you need help, you have questions, or you just want to talk to someone who understands, reach out to us at info at valiantliving.com or call 720 669 1285. Thanks again for being here, for doing the work, and for choosing recovery and honesty one day at a time. We'll see you next time.
