The Virtue of Patience

This is a wide discussion that will leave you thinking afterward.

Manny talks with guest Doug Downs about music, the role of anger in today’s society, technology’s impacts on lives and ultimately what one word would Doug say describes the secret recipe for success in life.

Patience is a virtue.

Listen For:
04:09 - From Band Life to Broadcasting
11:35 - The Dangers of Phone Addiction
19:55 - The Necessity of Anger for Change

GUEST: Doug Downs
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Transcript

Doug Downs (00:00):

Is anger a good thing? For the most part, no. I'd rather we have reasonable discourse as human beings, but does anger have a place in society? Yeah, I think it has to through anger sometimes is how we establish change.

Manny Andrade  (00:33):

Welcome everyone to another episode of Coffee Beans and Real Estate sitting by my office side window. So pardon any background noise and any traffic coming through. Joined by a very special guest today, and we have lots to talk about. Coffee beans in real estate. I think the premise of the show is we're talking about business owners entrepreneurship. Today we have Doug. Doug and I met at the Realtor Quest event last year in 2023. I'll let Doug explain that little background cough. And Doug is an entrepreneur. He's a very interesting dude. He is a guitar player. Hey, Doug.

Doug Downs (01:14):

I am. I've been playing longer than I've been a broadcaster. Started when I was about five years old. Thanks for having me, by the way.

Manny Andrade  (01:21):

Well, listen, you know what, this was sort of something that grew in the last 48 hours. I was thinking, because I'm going away and I want to talk about the, because dual technology and wifi and having the ability or the accessibility to our smartphones and technology. And I want to ask you, when you go on vacation, is technology an asset or deterrent? But I want to get into that a little later. You guitar playing, going back to five years, you were actually a very accomplished guitar player.

Doug Downs (01:56):

Just simply because I played so much. Not because I really had any given skill, but played for a long time. And then when I was leaving high school, I was torn a little bit before between going into broadcasting or even pursuing music. I was good at it and I was accepted at Berkeley and I almost went, but I think ultimately I was accepted, but it didn't mean anything was paid for. And the family ultimately said, well, I don't know how you're pulling that one off if you think you're going to Berkeley. So I chose the broadcasting group and still play guitar. So best of both worlds.

Manny Andrade  (02:31):

What's your favorite genre? What do you like to play on the guitar when you're listening, when you're listening to it, to yourself play? What do you like to listen to?

Doug Downs (02:40):

That's awesome. Probably old seventies, eighties, nineties music. Manny, I don't know how you feel, but I think they stopped really making music after 1995 or so and started making something else. I don't know. But I play the songs that I grew up with, but I do play some classical pieces. I love blues. So to just sit and pick away at some blues progressions mindlessly while I'm watching the game on tv, watching the Leafs lose,

Manny Andrade  (03:10):

Talk about the blues. You're going to go there. We have enough time for that. Yeah. So you're looking at, but, okay, so 70 seventies, eighties, nineties. You're talking fifties, sixties. If you're getting back into the blues, did the millennials change music? We're going to get a lot of pushback. I think they're just dubbing everything that the sixties and seventies performers did. They're just dubbing over some other electronic components over it and claiming it for themselves, but they really didn't come up with anything new, have they?

Doug Downs (03:44):

Well, I suppose Drake has some unique things. I can't rip him off. My kids are 19, 19 and 21, and they will swear up and down that the music that I listen to, they will admit it's better than the music today that it speaks to them more. There you go. Begrudgingly. They'll admit that.

Manny Andrade  (04:02):

We'll leave it at that. So you like to listen to that. Do you perform, do you have a band? Do you play anywhere or you just like

Doug Downs (04:09):

I don't anymore. No. Used to. Used to and then just work. Just took over and sunk myself into that. But no, I haven't really, since I left high school, but had a lot of bands back then and longer hair, longer thicker hair.

Manny Andrade  (04:24):

I'm sure you did. So, okay, you mentioned work and I'm leaving. I'm going on vacation, Doug in three days. It's a work, well, it's not work play. It's a golf vacation. I'm flying to the southern part of Portugal. I'm landing in Lisbon and driving down to the Algar, playing six rounds in six days. And I was talking to my agents and I was saying, look, if you need me, I'm available by email. There is a five hour time gap between here and there. It's actually ideal for me because of the time Toronto, where the western hemisphere is waking up. It is already midday for me. And then the question was, do I want to be accessible when I'm on vacation? Is technology a detriment or a deterrent to having a good time on vacation? Should a vacation be a vacation and be absent of any access to technology, et cetera, et cetera? How do you feel?

Doug Downs (05:22):

Yeah, it's like we blend between bleisure and lessness with bleisure being, I'm traveling on business, but I'm going to take some time out and get in some rounds of golf. And I think we've been doing that for a while. And now we're evolving into Lessness, which I think is, I'm going to travel on leisure, but I'm going to bring my laptop and I am going to pay attention to what's coming up on my phone because I'm a business person. I'm an entrepreneur of a small company, so it's mandatory that I'm connected and I accept that in exchange for on Monday afternoon, if I don't have anything going, I'm free to go hit a round of golf if I want to. That's the exchange. So I personally don't mind being connected, but I completely understand when people say I've got to take some time away. I've got to shut the mechanism down. And at least for a few days, if not a week or two, I need some time for just Manny or just Doug. I personally tend to get a little crawley if I'm away from things for a week. And we've tried that before. Family vacations, we go for two or three weeks and a week in, I'm checking everything. I want to know what's going on at work. I want to keep up with it. But that's my personal way of dealing with it, not my professional way, my personal way of dealing with it.

Manny Andrade  (06:48):

And it's personal, and I think I can argue both sides. And let me take you back. When I started sales in the late seventies, then through the nineties, there was no access to anything. I remember not that long ago going to Cuba and having nothing but DSL and no access to emails or anything. While there was a sense of panic, there was also a sense of relief. It was like, oh, well, sorry, I was unreachable. Unreachable. And does that give us a more restful vacation or something that you come back and you don't resent the fact that you have to work halfway half of your time?

Doug Downs (07:29):

I think it depends on the person. It really does. Do you owe it to people? No. What you owe is to yourself at the end of the day, and that's how you provide the best service to your clients, to your stakeholders, or to your constituents. If you're in politics, you ultimately owe time to yourself, whatever that looks like. So if you need to take time away and come back refreshed, then you're able to provide the best service back to your audiences. But if you're also someone who can go away and mix in lessness or bleisure, whatever you like, then that's your way of staying in touch with your clientele or your audiences. And I think for each person, it's individual. My way is I do like to be not overconnected, but a little bit connected when I go away. That's just my preference personally, not my wife's.

Manny Andrade  (08:22):

Okay, so going on vacation, let's say with kids, my kids, they would resent the fact that I'd be working through it. And I was like, I was grateful to be on vacation and have the opportunity to work being accessible to wifi and data. And they would, let's say, not appreciate the fact that I was working and taking away from the family time. But ironically, when they were old enough to get cell phones and stuff, then the roles reversed and it was like, Hey, kids, come back. Right? I've lost you into cyberspace. It is an interesting, I like to say I recorded something in the Azos some years ago and it was like if you don't plan, plan around it, you're going to work through it. And I am a Brian Buffini disciple and he likes in his coaching programs, Doug, he likes to talk about a wholesome life where you have family balance, where it be spiritual, physical, family time and putting it all down in your calendar in advance stuff. So he says when he goes on vacation, iTunes out and it's like, okay, I'll be back in a week. I'll call you back when I'm back. Is that like an old school? Is that something that today's generations want to hear?

Doug Downs (09:44):

You know what? It might be old school because the younger generation, I think of Gen Z or Z and Alphas and they're so connected and just their phone is an extension of their being. So that might actually be old school, which is a shame, especially for those who as they age and mature, some at least half the population will need to shut down the mechanism to get away, not be so interconnected. When I pick up the guitar and I sit to play part of the reason, and I do that four or five times in the course of the day, Manny, I step away from the computer, the emails aren't going. I know when my next meeting is, there's an alarm set to remind me. It's just me and my guitar and we're playing for 10 minutes together. It's like me and a friend having a conversation. That's my personal way of dealing with that. For others, I need to take a weekend away or I need to take a week away. I need to take two weeks away. Awesome. Whatever you need to do to shut down the mechanism and refresh yourself. And I suppose we just need it in different intervals. And it seems to me the younger generation, they'll need that space too. Everyone needs me time, but maybe that me time is becoming tighter, shorter windows,

Manny Andrade  (11:02):

And is that me time with the Xers more than or the Z? Sorry, more than sorry. That was a little Freudian there. Xers and Zs. The Zs and the office are their me time together with their phone. You're alone time. And I know you like to be alone, spent some at least some time to introspect, but you're not alone. Alone. You have your guitar with you. Are the Zs not so much alone but alone with their phones? And is that a good thing?

Doug Downs (11:35):

Great question. Great question. Probably not ultimately because it's a fake device and a device prone to misleading. That's the other thing about technology is the opportunity to mislead misdirect, even mal forms of communication malformation where people are deliberately trying to persuade the narrative into a false direction on certain things. The phone can become very dangerous and addictive at the same time, probably physically addictive. If your daughter, Allison, were here to talk about the neuroscience of this, I'm sure she would explain how the synaptic connections in the brain are impacted by not only the experience we have on the phone, but by the very blue screen of the phone. We know scientifically the blue screen can keep you awake

Manny Andrade  (12:27):

And it's by design. It's not a coincidence by design. Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned Allison. She did I think our first and third podcast and she did one with you. Now you're also into the science, Doug, like you're a deep thinker, you like to break things down, dissect things, and

Doug Downs (12:48):

I like talking to people like Allison who really understand it. That's what I like. I'm much more on the surface of all that stuff, but communication is my passion. I make my living as a podcast agency or podcast producer because it mixes various forms of communications and marketing and that's why you and I get along. But I, I'm less into the behavioral sciences, which most of my peers are more into the behavioral outputs. The reason I love talking with Allison is she can actually explain the physical neuroscience, how the amygdala is likely reacting to this situation, the fact that memories are stored through different synaptic connections in the brain. So the concept of going into the brain someday and clipping memories out of the brain, it's ridiculous. You might distort the memory, but the actual memory is what was connected in the auditory cortex as well as in the optical nerves. So it's different segments of the brain. And then someone like Allison can explain that much better than me. I love listening to someone like that and asking questions of someone like that because we're so scratching the surface and what we understand of the brain.

Manny Andrade  (13:58):

Oh, a hundred percent. And we have these conversations regularly, if not daily, close to daily and her pursuit or continuing education. And she's close to wrapping up her PhD, so she's just summarizing some of the research and the data and she loves to talk about it. But it is fascinating. I can see you're fascinated and intrigued by it. For me, I do. I actually enjoyed her episode because it relates well with businesses and my business, your business and behaviors and fears and what differentiates somebody who maybe is successful versus somebody who's a little less successful. And it's that whole fear thing and how it sort of manifests in each of us. We all behave differently with the same occurrence. We sort of different the fight, flight, font, freeze, we all have different actions or reactions from the same sort of consequence. And she did a presentation after that.

(15:02):

She did something for us a month and a half ago and it got a little deeper, Doug. And it just is really fascinating. It's a little too much and it's almost like, no, no, that really can't be it, right? But it is. And part of this talk that we have here on a monthly basis is trying to, and this is bringing us or keeping us on the science, talking about what is it, what differentiates you? Me, everyone else, anyone else? So I'm going to ask you, this is a regular, and you may be expecting this question, what is Doug's zit? How do you react and what makes you an entrepreneur, an avid guitar player from the age of five and something? What's your writ?

Doug Downs (15:56):

And I know you like these in one word, right? Yes. You want a one word it? Okay, one word. So obviously I listen to this podcast all the time, not just a lot as the producer. So I did have time to think this through and it's patience for me because patience doesn't mean apathy. Patience doesn't mean put it off. Patience means keep it at the top of the shelf and don't necessarily take an action on it right now. Think about it, think it through, and there'll be a point in time where you think at least, I'm pretty sure that's the right action to take. I wake up to about 60 emails in the morning when I wake up. Part of that is I have European clients, their day has started long before mine, and I'll have all these to-dos, and that's my morning. And so while I'm scratching the back of my neck and whatever, I don't drink coffee, but get myself a hot tea.

(16:56):

I start thinking about my responses to each of these. And the mistakes I make are usually when I respond right away. The good things that I do are when I've given my brain, because it's kind of like an old Windows computer that takes a little while to start up when I give myself a chance to really reflect and think it through. And who does that impact? And if I take the logical step here, the intuitive step, is there a negative move to it? Almost like a game of chess. What else could happen here? Am I being lured into something here? So patience for me is not an inactive quality. Patience for me means being very cogent in your thought process to how you're going to initiate or respond to something. And it's what's worked best for me.

Manny Andrade  (17:47):

So the old adage, let cooler heads prevailed. That is meaningful to you. Does it always work for you, Doug?

Doug Downs (17:55):

No. Sometimes you miss the opportunity. That's a great question because when it turns to apathy and you missed the chance, yeah, that's too, you missed.

Manny Andrade  (18:04):

So is it opportunity missed? If you react and if you react with a hothead, it usually turns into an overreaction. Have you ever had the case or a situation where you actually have a good outcome or make a good decision with in that sort of situation, when you're hotheaded and you're impulsive, does anything good ever come of it?

Doug Downs (18:27):

What a great question. On the surface of things, no, but digging deeper into that, you ask yourself the question, is there room for anger in today's society? Is there a place for that emotion? And of course there is anger happens when no one is listening to you. When you've tried to voice your concerns in that calm, reasonable way, time and time and time again, at some point you need to raise your voice. There is a place for anger in society. We can't abolish it. It's one of the natural, normal, primal emotions that exist. So as humans, anger will exist and there's a place for it. Should we be hotheaded? Should there be road rage or people because they feel some sort of anonymous setting on X or Twitter or some social media? Is anger a good thing? For the most part? No. I'd rather we have reasonable discourse as human beings. But does anger have a place in society? Yeah, I think it has to through anger sometimes is how we establish change.

Manny Andrade  (19:41):

That's a really good answer. Is it a virtue is like patience is a virtue, is anger a virtue? Is it in the same category? But on the other side of the spectrum,

Doug Downs (19:48):

It might be, it might be. We just need to be selective in how we choose to use anger.

Manny Andrade  (19:55):

We had a Gen Z on and he'll be listening to this and not anger. But was it something when I left that call or that discussion with Isaac at the time, was there an opportunity for that generation to be told something other than now, now here we got you. We understand and not anger, but maybe a little sort of get up and dust yourself off and get back on the horse kind of thing.

Doug Downs (20:32):

That's the school I'm from. When you are stymied by something or you had asked me, does acting impulsively or right away, does it work out all the time? My answer is no, but it does work out because I learned from it. So dust yourself off, that can be valuable as long as the person is able to dust themselves off. We also have to get beyond the walk it off mentality or the man up mentality because there are times when I shouldn't man up. There are times when I should appreciate the pain that I'm feeling or that someone else is feeling and man up. Whatever that really means is probably not the right approach. But at the same time, should we wallow in situations where we feel sorry for ourselves at some point we need to pick ourselves up. And you are responsible for your own happiness in this world. Nobody else is.

Manny Andrade  (21:35):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's very true and well said it. The maturation process I think maybe has slowed down a little bit. I'm not sure. I don't think if you're falling off a bike on and off, I think you'll learn to ride it a little quicker, a little faster. If you never have any spills and falls, then by the time you have the first one, you really behind the curve, the learning curve of somebody who's fallen three or four or five times. And I dunno if it's a generational thing right now, but I'm not going to get into that rabbit

Doug Downs (22:08):

Hole. My producer Emily, so she's Gen Z. If she's listening to this, I'll tease her. She's almost a millennial, I'll just put it that way. But her feedback on Isaac's episode was how much she enjoyed it. She felt she really connected with that episode and felt Isaac was very humble and very open, almost sharing a vulnerability about himself that is very attractive. We need more of that in this world,

Manny Andrade  (22:40):

A hundred percent. And I spoke to a few of his friends and people in a circle, let's just say. And I think they felt the same way. Obviously he's a very intelligent young man and vulnerable open to being openly criticized and openly told, Hey, suck it up. But it was a good call. Now depending on what cohort you are, you'll have a different response to his feelings. This sentiments the ones, the seniors coming off of the second World war, they would have a completely different answer to what his emotions are, his feelings, our struggles are than say the boomers and or the millennials. So it's generational for sure. This whole, it's really interesting and somebody, I'll let you wrap up, but somebody, so there was some commentary after that episode and I invited anybody that's listening to this one now, to go back to the last one. And Isaac, I believe is 21-year-old who was trying to understand where he was at with school and career choices and whatnot. And there were some discussion afterwards around the office and it was I Ds, gen Zs. Well, we would be behaving or acting the same way if we were in their shoes. But is it them? They're not any different than the millennials or the boomers or the seniors, but they're raised a little different, right? Is it maybe the parents that are,

Doug Downs (24:19):

I circle back to the genesis of this episode. Part of it's probably technology. When you and I grew up, Manny, what were the messages we were getting on TV commercials, radio, newspaper mean was, and then our circle of friends, right? Gen Z is surrounded by messages all day every day. I've heard Seth Godin say the average person is bombarded by 5,000 plus messages per day and Gen Z who's on their phone all the time, and it's probably going to be worse for Gen Alpha that's younger. They're probably just bombarded by different narratives all day, every day. So I'd never, I admire Isaac for taking the step. He's taking an action. He's not being apathetic, he's taking an action, he's speaking about it. He's sharing his vulnerability and his questioning of this. He's probably going to reach a happier spot in a shorter timeframe than those who are secretly feeling the same way, but refuse to talk about it.

Manny Andrade  (25:19):

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Doug Downs (25:20):

And certainly the older generation wouldn't appreciate that because we're so much closer to the silent generation.

Manny Andrade  (25:29):

We got a lot of, we are spending a bit of time on it unintentional, but we certainly got a lot of different, I got a lot of feedback. I really enjoyed that one or I didn't enjoy it as much. And it was all contingent on who we were or I was, or the person speaking to me is in terms of which cohort they are. So different cohort, different reaction to Isaacs. I was talking to my, I have a soon to be eight month old granddaughter and her and I communicate a lot on our smartphone. So I'll call her mom, my oldest daughter, and to chat with my granddaughter and she recognizes me, Doug, on the phone, she reaches for me. She reacts to my humor, my silliness, whatever you want to call it as a grandfather. And I told my daughter this morning, I said, when she's 1-year-old, I'll get her a cell phone and I'll teach her. I'll teach her how to use it, speed dial or whatever. And all kidding aside, how old will she be before she gets her cell phone, do you think? Two years old, three,

Doug Downs (26:40):

God, maybe maybe the other two year olds are going to have cell phones. She can't be shown up that way.

Manny Andrade  (26:48):

Well, my kids were like 12 and so they're late twenties, early thirties and the Z or Zs, whatever. But I had this conversation this morning, I said to my daughter, Brittany, I said, I'm going to get her a cell phone when she's 1-year-old. And I was half kidding. I was half kidding. I think the way they're, so they're almost born and introduced to them immediately and they adapt so quickly to it, whether it be the blue light, whether it be whatever it is she recognizes actions, emotions, behaviors, humor. And at seven and a half months old. So maybe when she's two, maybe I'll get her that cell phone. I'll keep

Doug Downs (27:31):

You posted. Do you remember your parents saying the same thing to you though, Manny, about technology? I do. My mom would like stop watching tv, get out of the house when I was your age, blah, blah, blah. It's probably just what we naturally do as parents is harken back to how much things have changed since we were in that same position.

Manny Andrade  (27:50):

Well, sort of maybe. I agree. So you were born and raised in Toronto.

Doug Downs (27:55):

I was

Manny Andrade  (27:56):

Scarborough. You're out Scarborough.

Doug Downs (27:58):

Scarborough, yeah.

Manny Andrade  (27:59):

Scar. And you're out where now?

Doug Downs (28:03):

Calgary. I'm out west.

Manny Andrade  (28:05):

So I was born and raised until the age of 10. And the Azos, and I tell family and friends and my agents here, I tell 'em stories, Doug, of going to school barefoot. I tell him stories of we had no running water. No, how do I say this delicately? No electricity, no running water, no sewage system, let's just say. Right? It was an outhouse for the ones and twos. And it was a cistern for water, which dual triple effect of a providing drinking water and then keeping a house cool in the summer and warmer in the winter. That's what we had. So I didn't have tv or if I had a tv, I wouldn't have anything to plug it into. But yeah, coming in here and having that television and yeah, I quickly got addicted to it. I got addicted to it in the Toronto maple leaf. And this is in 1974. So when I was 10 years old when I landed, when we landed as a family. And how about those leaves, Doug?

Doug Downs (29:12):

You know what? They're in it by the time this publishes, they'll be further in it and it might be looking real good and it might not be looking all that good at all. But Boston is a tough opponent. And that Brad Marchand,

Manny Andrade  (29:26):

Well, we're talking about him yesterday and the coach spoke about 'em yesterday. So we have a couple of rules in this podcast. We don't talk religion sports unless we talk about religion in sports. So we're going to talk about the new police here today. I think on the first or second episode, I said, as long as they have this coach, as long as they have this gm and as long as they have no goalie, they won't win. And so far my theory is, has proven itself and the Toronto made beliefs theory of how to build a team has consistently proven itself in a way that it's ineffective because they keep leaving on the first round last year, did they make it to the second round or was it doesn't matter if you don't win the Stanley Cup, they

Doug Downs (30:12):

Really, it ended badly. Yeah,

Manny Andrade  (30:14):

They should be winning the Stanley Cup every second year.

Doug Downs (30:17):

The thing is, if you're talking leafs, are you talking sports? Are you talking religion in Toronto? Because in Toronto, that's a religion man.

Manny Andrade  (30:25):

It is interconnected. I mean, look, Calgary has tasted victory under, it's been a

Doug Downs (30:32):

While

Manny Andrade  (30:33):

And they've won and you can taste it and it's a small market. They struggle, but they built a team. So yeah, Toronto Maple Leaf is a religion, here it is, but it is a love hate, right? My generation, we're frustrated by it. You go down Saturday night to Maple Leaf square, they all maple leaf square, it's Heartbreak Square every year. And then you have a new generation of, oh, it's this year. It's this year. It's this year. But it's been, was it 1967? It's been a heck of a long time. It's been a while. Personal philosophy, freedom, equity and basic human rights and values. Doug, what's all that mean to you?

Doug Downs (31:19):

So just personal philosophies. I read a book that outlined two things we hold very precious and dear in life are freedom and equality. Those are two things we must have. The challenge is sometimes, often they butt heads with one another. If we had absolute freedom, I'll just use a market economy as an example. If all we had was market forces, we would have more situations like 2008 with the financial collapse. There is some level and this opens up a wide open Pandora's box of argument. I completely get that. But where I sit, it's personal philosophy is there have to be some level of regulation and modification, which is a restriction on freedom. But if you had only equality, then you would have a situation. Where would people pursue opportunities? Many, you're a perfect example coming from the Azores. You had the opportunity in Canada to reach a certain level of success in life and give back, which I know you do, but it was the pursuit of that opportunity that helped you excel.

(32:30):

If there were forces that were stopping you, it didn't matter how hard you worked or how much success you had, if it was forced equality, well that wouldn't work either. So that's where these two things butt heads with one another. And I just find in today's society, sometimes there are people, we're not disagreeing dramatically necessarily, but if you and I disagree on something, chances are you're saying we should put more emphasis on the equality part of the argument. And I might be saying, no, no, we should put more emphasis on the freedom side of the argument. It doesn't mean we're golfs apart. It probably means we're closer to the same and we disagree on the nuances of the emphasis. That's what I mean by freedom and equality.

Manny Andrade  (33:15):

I agree. It's all subjective and it's like other things we're talking about. It's your level of good taste or my level of what a free market economy should be. Sure. If one would argue if government hadn't stepped in or hadn't taken measures in advance of 2008, we would've been worse. Very likely. Some would argue that if we hadn't done anything at all, we would've bounced back regardless. And there's always going to be always casualties and we're always going to have some winners and losers, but it's also subjective. And the left and the right are really on the opposite end of the spectrum. But they're back to back when you go full circle, right?

Doug Downs (33:58):

Yeah. Well, can you imagine real estate without rules and regulations for realtors? That would be chaos. There would be bad actors in that scenario. So we do need some rules and regulations for realtors. Are there too many? Maybe Are there not enough? Maybe that's the case too. It's the nuance of those things.

Manny Andrade  (34:19):

On that note, I actually agree with a lot of the changes. And I don't know what the regulatory bodies are doing out in Alberta, but I know in the west coast, in bc, really tough measures and we just brought in, adopted some really new measures under Tresa. We've had 'em for about a year and I think it's all consumer based and I think it's a really good thing. And I don't think it's gone or going far enough, but there's more to come. On that note, Doug, time has just breezed past and bias, and we're going to call it a day. But I want to thank you for being on and expressing your honest and candid points of view. And I didn't know before, but I know now that you're an avid guitar player, maybe one of these days you can play a little riff for us. And if it's a two or three minute virtual, we will challenge you to do that. And to our listeners at home, I encourage you to like it. If you like it, share it. And if you have any feedback or positive or negative or anything you want us to talk about, tell us us, how you feel, share it. And Doug, tell us about your podcast before we go.

Doug Downs (35:32):

Sure. My podcast is called Stories and Strategies for Public Relations and Marketing. It's about human communication and that's why we had Allison your daughter on the show because ultimately a big part of what makes us human is how we communicate with one another. And she spoke to the neuroscience of some of that. So it's available on all the apps right beside Manny's.

Manny Andrade  (35:53):

Alright, right above Manny's. Tune in next time. We're talking about women in real estate. When I started in real estate, Doug women, whether it be from an employment point of view, to qualify for a mortgage or in real estate, predominantly there were secondary income earners or doing it as a side gig to supplement their husbands. It was an old boys club. It's changed. I have some stats and figures that I want to share with us. So I'll tell next time, Doug, be well and thank

Doug Downs (36:21):

You. Thank you, sir.