Midlife Marauders

How to Work Out and Not Hate It feat. Ann Brennan, Midlife Fitness Professional

• Will & Max • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In our first guest interview, we learn from an expert how midlifers can build a sustainable workout practice even if we're short on time and if our bodies and minds are unwilling. Ann Brennan,  a Fitness Practitioner and Personal Trainer at Applied Fitness Solutions, shares tips on how to find the motivation to get fit and stick to a program that is both effective and enjoyable. She discusses the importance of frequency and intensity when planning a workout schedule and mixing strength-training exercises with cardio. 

About Our Guest
Ann Brennan has been a fitness professional in Ann Arbor, Michigan since graduating with a Master’s in Exercise Physiology in 2014. 

Ann specializes in helping people begin and sustain strength training exercise programs. She has several years of experience and specialized certifications to help clients improve health through exercise despite diagnoses including diabetes, osteoporosis, cancer, lower back pain, arthritis, and cardiovascular disease.  She will soon begin the process to become a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach.

Thanks for listening--keep on marauding!

Unknown:

So we are very lucky today to have in the studio our first guest for our talk show. And so I'd like to introduce Ann Brennan--she has been a fitness professional in Ann Arbor, Michigan since graduating with a master's in exercise physiology in 2014. So prior to studying ex phys she grew up in Indiana, she studied political science as an undergrad at Miami University in Ohio and has lived in many different cities, including Washington, DC, Madrid, and London and Paris. And Ann and I met while we were getting our MBAs at the University of Maryland and College Park, and she really helped me get through the really tough statistics and accounting classes. And she's a dear friend of mine and has a great sense of humor. So we're so happy to have her here today. And really, I think the timing is great, because I feel like I'm at my low in terms of fitness. And so I really wanted to bring her in today to talk to us about you know, at this stage in our lives what we should be doing fitness wise, I'm so happy to have her here. Welcome, Ann. Welcome, Ann. Hey, guys, thank you for having me. See you. So and when I texted you about being on the show, you got the podcast title right away. So I wanted to find out are you A Tribe Called Quest fam? Like how did you know right away that the connection, but like Max full disclosure, there was when I was looking up the podcast, there was something on one of the either the YouTube or Spotify, it said something about where the title came from. And so and so. But then I appreciated it because I am I am a tribe fan. And I'll go that's not my favorite album, which is your favorite album. When after that, or the weekend I was trying to think of my favorite album. It's the one that has like Can I kick it you know, instinctual people's instinct. Yeah. But I remember the 90s. I owned low in theory. So I've always liked tribe, and now in the gym where I've worked now. No one theory I think is the second one is and so we listened to a good bit of, of tribe in the gym. You know, when I can get that going? Yeah, that's a great. Yeah. So. So I love that your podcast called back to, you know, people who were listening to them in the 90s. And that's, that's our generation. Yes. And then we'll and I actually met when we were DJs at UVA. And so that's our connection to so Oh, okay. Yeah. So really excited about you being here. And being a tribe. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. And I heard you and Max went to business school together. Can you share a little bit about how you guys met your background? And what motivated you to become a personal trainer? Sure, yeah. Well, it was awesome meeting Max and business school, because, you know, she and I think, sort of went to business school for similar reasons. We've been working in nonprofits and just kind of feeling a little stuck in our 20s, and wanting to do something else. And so when we met, and then also our other friend, a partner in crime, Shauna, we were the three liberal arts majors here at this kind of highly quantitative University of Maryland, business school, everybody else seem to have undergraduate degrees in business or engineering. So we were these, like Three Musketeers of liberal arts determined to do well, in stats and accounting and finance. So we stuck together and Max, you know, of course, the serial entrepreneur that she is, you know, helped us, the three of us. We did we, we were our friend was getting married and shopping for wedding dresses. And so we had this idea of, let's disrupt the wedding dress industry. And so we went about making a business plan for that how we were going to just radicalise this industry that seems so old fashioned. And yeah, we had a good time dreaming that up. It was really it was those were two very special years. Yeah, that was really fun. Back then you were a big swimmer, and so is that kind of how you got into fitness? Yes, that's been the thread of, you know, the many careers and jobs that I've had. I've always, I've always been a swimmer. And so then when I was in my 40s, are just about to turn 40. I decided to train for a triathlon. And it was in studying that training that made me so interested in exercise science. And so I decided I didn't know that was a field. And so that's when I decided to go into it in my early 40s to do this really major career change, which I'm glad I did, because I've learned a lot. I really love working with people helping them feel better. And it's been it's been a rewarding career so far, and I and I love it. And I still work out all the time. Was that a hard decision at that time? Like, were you kind of contemplating? Oh, should I do this? Or should I not? Or was it pretty clear? It was hard because, you know, I was in, I was in a good job at the University of Michigan. And you know, and I had two young kids at home, elementary school aged kids. And so it was hard, like, can I really do this? Can I kind of make this sacrifice, our whole family was gonna have to sacrifice for me to, you know, step away from income and go back to school, because I needed prereqs to I didn't have chemistry and, you know, anatomy physiology as as an undergrad, so I had to go back and do all that stuff before the masters. So it was a big sacrifice that the whole family made, which I'm looking back, it was the right decision, it seems like, right. I agree. I think it was, and I'm glad I did it. And you know, my family is glad I'm in. I'm in a career, I'm really happy. And it's been a good thing. Yeah, a lot of people have that. That's awesome. I know, we're still we're still trying to get to that level for sure. Exactly. But it's really inspiring to hear that. So what about, tell us more about your job right now? Like what types of clients you work with? Are you working with people like us in midlife, tell us more about that. Yeah, I've worked, I worked for a small gym, that we do have a heavy focus on strength training. And so we have, it's not a gym, where you can just, you just go and lift, like at your, you know, kind of neighborhood change in, you know, you just go and lift whenever you want. At hours, you have an individualized program. And then you sign up for a class in which you do your own program. So it's not like we're ready to begin the 10 o'clock class, but people come or little before tad little after 10. And then they're doing their program that we've made for them based on their needs, their goals, their limitations. And so, you know, we cap out at 15. So there's 15 People Max in the gym with two trainers, they're doing their own programs, we're floating around, you know, making sure form is correct, motivating, answering questions, that kind of thing. So the people who want to be in a gym like that, are usually well, it's kind of pricey, so they have money, but they're, they're very motivated, they really want the help and instruction, they don't just want to go do their, you know, three sets of 10 benchpress. And leave, they really want to take the time to do things right, maybe they're recovering from an injury, maybe they have had a health issue. But they're, they're pretty motivated to learn to listen. And so these people there a lot of midlife, you know, I fit right in, I could read it with our Jim, and an older to lots of older people. And the younger people that we have there, sometimes they're the children of members. And, and sometimes they're just younger people, maybe in the tech industry that work nearby or something like that, where they have a they have a need or a goal where this kind of gym format really speaks to them. And so I do that, you know, so I'm a trainer, these classes, like I've said, and I also have some one on one clients too. And people who want to do personal training. You know, I have clients with osteoporosis, scoliosis, other kinds of back issues, anxiety, you know, where sometimes there's some barriers to wanting to work out in a group setting. And so, so I have, you know, kind of myriad clients, but lots of mid lifers, you know, so I can really relate to those issues and struggles. Is it all is it sorry, are your clients all in person? Or do you do any, they are all in person. I wasn't working there during the pandemic. In the pandemic, my fitness career kind of blew up. I was working at a YMCA. And so that shut down. And so I actually wasn't working in fitness for about two years, because everything's just sort of shut down. So it's great to be back. Okay, that's great. I thought when you said blew up, it was like, Oh, really? Oh, yeah. No. in the other direction. Yeah. Hey, Dan, I want to ask you have a question. Since this is a midlife podcast, what are the particular challenges related to fitness and health? That mid lifers face that are different from other age groups? And how do we overcome and I know for me, like, I've been somewhat exercising for years and I think I know what I'm doing. But as I get older, I'm becoming less sure of what I'm doing. Like for example, you know, I'm just talking to men of my age, you know, that used to lift heavy and do things, you know, concentrate on heavier weights and that sort of thing. And, you know, now I'm more concerned about dialing that back. Because I don't want the pressure on my heart. I've heard of people having issues with their hearts becoming and large because of heavy weight. So what can we do as midlife is to make sure that we're doing our exercises properly? That's, that's a really great question and a question that we get a lot, because, and one reason that, I'm guessing you're asking that is because there's just so much out there, there's just so much. And there's a lot of mixed messages too. And so, you know, what I see with people our age is, sometimes there's some motivational issues, but like, you know, maybe they're feeling guilty, because they're not working out, like they should, you know, there's a lot of shoulds. And that's, and so, you know, so or maybe they feel like, you know, customers with older people, they've, they've had the health scare, they've had the diagnosis, and they can come in and be very motivated. People in midlife that are hanging on to the health of you have this abstract, like, I should do this, because I might want to prevent illness, but it's hard. It's, it feels a little bit abstract at this point. And so that can be difficult to motivate, especially, you know, midlife, there's, there's serious time constraints, you know, your your career is, is, you know, either full steam, or maybe you're making a transition but careers, you know, front and center. And if you have a family, they're front and center, too. And so it's it, there can be real time pressures for this age group, in fitting in the exercise. And so, you know, the thing that that I'd like to recommend for people to kind of think about what they should be doing, and how is to first think about your own personal values. I mean, where are you sitting? That's because you're not going to stay motivated. If it's someone else's goal. Yeah, you know, if it's your spouse's goal, your doctor's goal, that's gonna get you running three days a week for a couple of weeks. But as soon as like, the tiniest hurdle appears, you're just not going to keep doing it, because that wasn't your goal within you. So if you think about like, what do you really value spending time with your family? You value like kicking butt at work? Do you value? intellectual pursuits? You know, do you value sports competition, you know, whatever that thing is your social life, that you need to think about prioritizing those values. And then, as far as like, Where does your health really fit in with that, and you got to be honest with yourself, because if, if it's a little bit low on the totem pole, and it means you're going to take 230 minute walks per week, that's something you can stick with, you know, if if that's what you're going to make your goal, then then maybe that's something you can really stick with, because you've, you've set it up in your in your list of priorities. You know, if you set yourself kind of a doable goal, meet that, you might be ready to take on another challenge, oh, hey, I could fit in those 230 minute walks, they're feeling pretty good. I think maybe I want to try to add this other thing, or maybe I'll try jogging or something like that. But it really comes down to with this age group, being very realistic about your time and your values. And that's, that's what I have seen really help people. Because the best program in the world doesn't do you any good. If you can't do it, you know? Or you're not motivated to do so. Yeah, but would you say like, if you came to us, or if we came to you and said, Hey, what's the best exercise regimen? For us? I know, it's somewhat customized, right, depends on our priorities and our values. But what would you say, you know, what would you recommend, I guess, in terms of our age, and what do we need at this time? Like, I have an hour to do, you know, whatever, what would you Okay, well, so, you know, again, kind of similar to what I've seen before the, the best exercise is typically the one you'll keep doing, right? But, you know, there's a lot of talk on the web, like, Oh, you got to do hit. It's the best training. That's that's the best you know, and so it can be confusing or you got to do cardio zone to you have to do that. So that's, that can be difficult, you know, with all these things that are like touted as the best. Right? You know, the the national guidelines are 150 minutes of moderate, moderate to higher than that intensity, you know, which is means like your heart rate is high enough where you can talk, but it's more difficult. So 150 minutes of that a week plus two days of strength training. So that's like, the recommendation, very few, very few Americans our age meet that beat that. Just, it's hard, that's a lot. That's a lot. But that that's the recommendation. And so, as far as how you're going to get those minutes, you know, if you, if you kind of dig into the guidelines, you can get those minutes. A lot of different ways. It doesn't have to be 530 minute workouts, you can do. I don't know, if you've seen sometimes people talk about exercise snacks, you know, where you do a 10 minute workout between zoom calls, or between meetings or something like that. You can do I've seen, and I've done, like the seven minute workout, you know, it's it's, it's pretty intense, squats, push ups, you know, and, and you can get that done. And those things add up 150 A week, okay, so, so, you know, when I say the best one is the one you'll do, it's it, you the main thing is getting that intensity, you really want to be able to get your heart rate up somewhat. Okay. Okay. And the other thing is, you really want to do something that has some weight bearing feature, like whether that's resistance training with bands or weights, even walking or dancing, like as a swimmer, swimming in and cycling or not weight bearing. So, you know, especially for women, because of bone density loss, which just happens to everyone, as you start going through menopause, your muscle starts to go away, your bone density starts to deteriorate. weight bearing exercise and strength training are very important. But if you love cycling, and swimming, don't stop doing them. But just add on these other things. It's really need to find joy in what, in doing something. And because that's going to help you stick with it, you need to like it. And I want to ask you, I want to ask you a question. I debate with my friends a lot about cardio versus HIIT training. I find that in my 50s It's hard for me to do cardio, first of all, I don't like running anyway. So that makes it easier for me. So I tend to side more with the hit training. What do you feel about that? I just don't see that again, in my debate with friends, you know, you know, I run I jog. I do all this. And, you know, they don't seem to be hitting their their goals. I mean, they're getting their cardiovascular health, but they don't seem to be, you know, if their goal is to lose weight or anything like that. They don't seem to be changing their body with that. What do you recommend for people? Our age as far as should we do cardio? Should we do hit? So we do should cover incorporate both? What are your feelings on that? So yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, hit is awesome. Because it just, it's efficient. It takes less time. Yeah. Right. And you really get your heart rate up. And hit workouts are also they can be really just fun and high energy, you know, a circuit. Switch it up. Yeah, for sure. It's really they can be really fun. And so hit is. I will always recommend hit okay. Okay. But the thing when you were talking when you're talking about cardio, because hit is easy. Is it type of cardio? Correct. And so the the cardio that you were referring to in your other example is what we call kind of long, slow distance or you know, which, for a lot of people the mental health benefits are enormous. And so for a lot of people, they're doing it you know, the mental benefits of exercise across the board are well documented, but you know, there's some people who just I know with swimming, for people with running for people who do like, one boring thing for a long time. There's there's a lot of mental health benefits and just sort of tuning out stress reduction, that kind of thing. thing. But as far as like changing your body, you're right, though that kind of that kind of workout does not tend to change your body, you know, because, like calorie, calorie spent and that kind of thing, you know, those the calorie counters, you can't you can't trust those, those are those are based on, those are absolutely based on averages. Your watch doesn't know how you burn, you know, it has no idea how you burn, it knows, it might know, like, you know, the average 50 year old male might burn between this and this, you know, but there's, there's just so many factors that go into that. So, you know, as far as like, wanting to lose weight, or change your body composition or something like that. Cardio alone is not really the of either type cardio, writ large or hit specifically, that's not really going to change your body composition, very much nutrition changes are really what changed the body. You know, exercise is great and should be a part of any sort of body composition changing program. But but it's the study after study show that it's the nutrition changes that really make the difference in in losing weight and putting on muscle. So I hope that helps you with in your debate, it will given me more ammunition and then that, for sure. I appreciate that. I want to add to that, like how should someone go about picking a personal trainer? What were tracers should you look for? And what are the typical packages and price points on that? And so, yeah, so for personal training, I mean, you need to find someone who you feel like you can have a good relationship with, you know, you got to have that, that vibe with them? And how do you get that? Like, do you have some, you know, certain questions, like sometimes maybe a younger person might work better for me, you know, like, it's just a feeling they don't need to, you don't need to have anything like, actually in common with them. But it's, it's a feeling that you'll get when you see when they listen to you, you know? And because if you go see a trainer, and they already know what you need before asking you stuff, you know, that's, you need to pause. And really think about that, because the trainer needs to design a program based on what you need? And how do they find out what you need, they need to ask you questions. And you might you might have kind of vague answers, like I want to get in shape, I want to feel better, well, then it's the trainers job to kind of dig into that, and help you establish some goals that feel good to you. And so once you and the trainer agree on some of these goals, then it's important that the trainer will kind of have you at a, you know, do an assessment to see where are you now? Let's just do kind of like a day zero assessment, based on what the the parameters that are going to be important to you? Is it strength? Is it cardiovascular endurance, is it flexibility? Is it balance? You know, what are these? What are these things that you want to change? And then design the program that makes sense with your timing? You know, what, if you can only meet once a week, what if you meet three times a week, like the program? Will? We'll need to account for what you can do, you know, your availability, your adventure? Yeah, exactly. And then and a good trainer will design things that that will fit your life. And then and then a good trainer will then you know, help you with this program. And then assess you at a certain date. You know, like you'll know that in advance. We're going to do it three months, we're going to do these tests again, and see where you are. And you might do those tests. Some things have changed, some haven't. But in the meantime, maybe you've decided, well, I've really liked working on this aspect, which I didn't realize I would enjoy so much. I'm going to change my goals. I want to do this now. You know and so, so when you have these checkpoints, every few months or whatever you decide, that helps you stay on track because the thing is, you know, a good personal trainer has a lot of experience and education and expertise. They don't even really they don't just want to be your workout buddy. You know what I mean? And so don't use them as that if you want to workout buddy just get a workout buddy. Right but if you but but get the full advantage of having experienced certified trainer that can Ah, you know, really help you shape your goals. Design a program that gets you to your goals, because, you know, I know one of the advantages of having to trainers, that sort of accountability piece, you know, well, I've paid the appointment, I have to show up, even though I don't really feel like it today. And there's something to be said for that. But really, going back to the values thing, it needs to, you need to want this for yourself, you know what I mean, for it to be sustainable. And just, and just because you've paid the money or made the appointment, that's, that's not really going to be enough to sustain a lot of people. And so, really being invested in your goals, like the trainer is, I think, is going to help help somebody stick with it. And that's, that's how you can have a really good experience with with a trainer when you know, you're working together, on on these goals, and they have your back and they're designing this program, to to get you there and to also adjust if there's bumps in the road, you know, you get sick, you get an injury, you got to be able to weather those things that help, is there a minimum amount of time that you should commit? Like say, if you want to give somebody a trial, you know, you want to try out a trainer? Like what when How long should you expect for things to be like, okay, and doing well at this, you know, or, you know, how long should you actually give one minute well guess at our gym, we we do things in in 90 days, you know, okay, we kind of have like an on a 90 day onboarding program, we try to assess our clients, around every 90 days, sometimes it gets to be longer than that if there was like a break or something like that, but but I'd give it 90 days, if you feel like the investment is so huge. I don't want to wait that long, then you know, of course make it to what makes sense for you. But you got to give it you've got to give it a little bit of a shot to to see how that's working. And that's my question. I think I've been resist. I've never had a personal trainer, but I feel like I could benefit from it. Because I can never stick to an exercise routine. So I don't know, well, have you had a trainer before? No, I've had people offer to train I, I see the benefit of having a trainer, like I said the accountability factor ever. Plus, if you're paying them, then you don't want to, you know, waste your money. But I've never personally had a fitness trainer. And do you have a trainer? Do you have one yourself? Right my own workouts, okay. But I have the advantage of with my colleagues who are very experienced traders, and so. So it's really, it's really good. And we Our gym is closed from one to three. And so that's kind of like staff workouts. And so it's really fun to, you know, work out at that time and talk about because, you know, my program that I write for myself is is, is for swimming, you know, and so. So mine's a little bit different than some of the other people and so it's just fun to like, talk about it, debate it and yeah, get help. So yeah, I'd recommend having a trainer, if that's something that makes sense for what you're trying to do. You know, and it's, it's not for everybody, and there are people, you know, there's just, there's bad actors in every industry. There's people who, you know, just want to make that money, but, but really, people go into personal training, because they love health and fitness. You know, it's not really a career you go to for the money. Okay, but so we shouldn't be skeptical or suspicious of people. healthy skepticism is always good. But But yeah, I would definitely I think it can really help to have a trainer because they can really open your eyes to ways of moving that you hadn't thought about ways of you know, because the other thing about midlife is sometimes we get a little we've gotten a little stiff in our 50s You know, and joints don't really work the way they did before. And so, you know, before your, you're gonna hit that benchpress and try, you know, to like max out on that. A good trainer will, you know, be making sure how are your shoulders, let's test how those moves. And let's see what we can do to get them ready so that you so they're not going to get injured so you can use the muscles that you want to use. So that injury prevention is another big thing. You know, for our our age group, injury prevention and sometimes recovery. Do you guys incorporate stretching or plyometrics or something to get the joints you know, activated and loose and limber for totally, totally. Yeah, we we have a lot of flexibility mobility exercises that we recommend for People and and so yeah, that's we've had people in pain or stiff or like limited range of motion who, you know, after working at our gym, even before they start kind of lifting heavy, that we have them using bands and different exercises to get that joint where we can move in a healthy way again. And so that can be that's, that's as important as any aspect of strength training. Really gotcha because that's what I struggle with. I'm one of those people that you probably wouldn't like, because I don't I just go right into it. And every time I do, I think to myself, I probably should have stressed out before I started doing after hobbling. Yeah, and I'm working on stretching out after I'm doing a better job of that. But I do need to anybody out there listening you you got to incorporate that stuff, especially in your midlife years, because the stiffness is no joke. And and I mean that that will deter you from working out. Yeah, the flexibility is very important. Because just like everything, it just goes right, you know, you get stiffer. So, so just, you know, working on flexibility. And then the other thing is balance. You know, this is, you know, not waiting, not waiting till you fall. Right, right, just, you know, and so the way we work and unbalanced with a lot of people in our age group is it's not technically like that we're gonna work on balance now, but just doing things one leg at a time. Okay. That's, that's a great way to work on balance, lunges, step ups, you know, those are any single leg, you know, a single leg squat to a bench. These are great ways to work on balance, because sometimes you don't realize that you have an imbalance to do a single leg activity, right? You know, because you're always compensating so. So yeah, having balance in the back of your mind, is something important to this is so informative. So if we wanted to work with you, we'd have to move to Michigan, right? Yes, you weren't. It's a great town. Well, we would love to have you back on the show. And maybe if you can give us some kind of fitness challenge. It doesn't fit all but like if you came back and like say six months or something like that, where would you want to see us or what what can you challenge us with? Okay, this was a fitness challenge. Yes. It was something, please. Without knowing really very much about what you're doing now, although it didn't sound like you're doing something to regular. I am she isn't? Hi. Yeah. Hey, I'm on my stretching. He's not I'm not stretching, but I am on a on a fitness fitness journey. I got started. Yeah, I've got this just sounds vain. But I've got some trips coming up this year. A wedding in Cancun Vegas. My sister just called me talking about what we should take the family to Belize. So I don't want to be the fat guy out there. I don't want to be the, you know, the most out of shape dude out there. So I am working out pretty much. I would say about five times a week now. Strength training and hit training and that sort of thing. So I am on a fitness journey. So. Okay, yeah. So I'm highly motivated. Excellent. That is great. So, you know, within within six months, you know, maybe you can I was trying to think of a like a flexibility goal. You know, maybe you can talk about you've, you've stretched twice a week, between now and the next six months, you've built up a twice a week stretching habit, you know, and so, you know, before I get to Max's, I'll just say that sometimes, you know, when we talk about goal setting. It's an important goal to have these it's called, like a process goal. Like, you know, I'm not saying you need to have a goal that where you're going to bench you know, to 25 but a goal about like, how often you're going to work out that can be a really powerful goal because that's something you really have a lot of control over. You know, as far as you know, being able to squat 1.5 your bodyweight like, you might not have so much control over that goal, but you can control like how much effort you put into something so, So Max, yours is going to be Um, I challenge you to report back on some activity completed. I want to know the frequency and what the activity was over six months. Okay, well, whether that's a penny, you started walking twice a week or you start you joined a class or whatever that was, let's say your that's your buddy consistency. Okay. So it is really important consistency. And effort. Yeah. Okay, and the effort comes through with the, you know, the getting your heart rate up. Okay, so that's, I can do that. That's helpful. I love it, how you don't set the bar super high. It's like, what what can what you can do those, like those seven minute workouts, he was talking about those little mini mini workout exercises. There you go. I like to do it like, I'll do. Like a pretty hard like a CrossFit type work workout, but then I won't do it again for like, a couple of weeks. So it's very up and down. And then and then I'm really sore and work out again, you know, I know that soreness, go away. Increase the frequency. Okay, you know, but maybe across our workouts too. takes too much time. Right? You know, so you need to find some some smaller that you can do. You've given us a lot to think about. I actually was actually very educated. Okay, I'm glad I might get a trainer. But thank you so much for being to learn so much valuable information. I'm ready to go. I have to make sure that I keep going. Yeah, I love this six month, check in and I will hold her feet to the fire. I will ask her you know, what does she do? You know, and I expect her to do the same thing. To me. I think countability is 100 100% important part. Thanks for joining us for this episode of midlife marauders. Follow us on social media and wherever you stream your podcast. We also want to give a big shout out to Frank moinmoin music for providing the beats for our theme music and to our listeners. Keep on marauding and see you next time.