ReFi Generation
ReFi Generation explores the new frontier of regenerative finance and the community mindset that gives local actions a global reach. We talk to experts and leaders in the field while examining how the ingenuity of ReFi can help bring environmental and humanitarian efforts into the next generation.
ReFi Generation
Ep. 22 Transforming the Carbon Market with Jeremy Epstein of Open Forest Protocol
Today we go into the forest with Jeremy Epstein, head of growth for Open Forrest Protocol. To put it simply, Open Forrest Protocol is a registry and issuer of carbon credits. Jeremy has a background as a lawyer and gives an inspiring take on how blockchain technology is applicable for solving the climate crisis, biodiversity crisis, really any sort of any of the ecological crises we face.
Jeremy reminds us, “You can’t manage what you can’t measure,” and since we live in a capitalist economy, market based solutions will have the most potential for success. Jeremy wrote his graduate thesis on the European Union’s emission trading scheme and is highly knowledgeable on the carbon markets. Jeremy gives a thorough explanation of why putting carbon credits on chain is a practical idea. One example is how low quality carbon offsets on the market will encourage other assets to be of better quality and also discourage bad actors to not fudge and lie about their offsets, since it will be public, drastically diminishing the rampant green washing we see today.
We look at forward facing impact verifications that Open Forrest Protocol could be used for in the future. Essentially anything that requires MRV - Measure, Report, Verification. One example Jeremy discusses is how if there is a claim for regenerative beef, how is the producer proving that the beef production actually sequestered carbon and regenerated the land? Blockchain and MRV methodology is the tool to provide certainty that regeneration happened. Just like how proof of reserve is necessary for the gold standard, proof of regeneration is also necessary. Jeremy shares how fundamentally we need to enhance trust behind regenerative claims, so people can confidently move their capital into regenerative finance systems.
Open Forest Protocol Website
Open Forest Protocol "Atlas"
Open Forest Protocol Twitter
Jeremy's Twitter
We can't have hundreds of thousands of dollars out the door in two to five year development cycles to get projects in the ground. So with this DMRV approach, the idea is we can make this happen. We can get first credits issued within a single year, we can get the first data set uploaded in the first six months, we can get the project approved in the first couple of weeks and we can get things moving. And does it really really require phds to fly around the world to wrap a tape measure around a tree and collect that data? I mean, that is sort of a classic barrier to entry. Uh, and that's I think that's what's meant. You know has been the reason that we haven't seen more scale in the reforestation market and carbon markets in general.
Cash:Welcome to Refi Generation, the podcast that talks to experts and leaders in the new frontier of regenerative finance to examine how blockchain technology is creating the next generation of environmental and humanitarian initiatives. I'm your host, cash Upton. Today we go into the forest with Jeremy Epstein, head of Growth for Open Forest Protocol. To put it simply, open Forest Protocol is a registry and issuer of carbon credits. Jeremy has a background as a lawyer and gives an inspiring look on how blockchain technology is applicable for solving the climate crisis, biodiversity crisis, really any sort of the ecological crises we face. Jeremy reminds us you can't manage what you can't measure and, since we live in a capitalist economy, market-based solutions will have the most potential for success. Jeremy wrote his graduate thesis on the European Union's emission trading scheme and is highly knowledgeable on the carbon markets. Jeremy gives a thorough explanation of why putting carbon credits on-chain is a practical idea. One example is how low-quality carbon offsets on the market will encourage other assets to be of better quality and also discourage bad actors to not fudge and lie about their offsets, since it will be public, drastically diminishing the rampant greenwashing we see today. We look at forward-facing impact verifications that open forest protocol could be used for in the future. Essentially, anything that requires MRV measure report verification. One example Jeremy discusses is how, if there's a claim for regenerative beef, how are you proving that the beef production actually sequestered carbon and regenerated the land? Blockchain and MRV methodology is the tool to provide certainty that regeneration happened. Just like how proof of reserve is necessary for the gold standard, proof of regeneration is also necessary. Jeremy shares how fundamentally we need to enhance trust behind regenerative claims so people can confidently move their capital into regenerative finance systems.
Cash:This was one of my favorite conversations to date. I hope you enjoy date. I hope you enjoy. Hey, jeremy, how are you doing today? Good, good. How are you Cash Doing? Well, excited to have you come on. Was really grateful to have met you at ETH Denver and just really connected on what you're doing. So why don't you start by telling our listeners kind of how you got into ReFi and what exactly you're doing over at open forest protocol?
Jeremy Epstein:yeah, sure, um, I start pretty far back in my journey. Uh, as far as the climate side of my experience, that came from just a lifelong love of nature and that's where I find myself, you know, regenerating myself. And so, even you know, in high school I was the only kid in the room taking the AP environmental studies test. I still remember that day and, yeah, I did a master's degree, did an undergrad degree in climate policy, did a master's degree in greenhouse gas accounting and environmental markets. So this has always been kind of my arena, climate's kind of, you know, in the words of Hunter Levin, the thing I can't not do. In fact did an internship with Natural Capitalism Solutions of 111s back in 2006. So, yeah, it's been, um, it's been a lifelong journey, it's the thing I can't not do.
Jeremy Epstein:And, uh, the finance side of it's kind of always been the angle I take of like, look the, the money. My personal thesis is the money exists out there to to solve the, to solve all the environmental crises that we have to some degree. We just need to figure out a way to get it interested and to flow that capital into solutions, and so for me that's kind of been right. There's a lot of angles you can take in climate. You could be a policy person, you could be a practitioner on the ground. For me, I think, the finance end of things has been if we can figure out how to unlock these things, um, and I think if we can make solutions that are interesting to both missionary and mercenary capital, then we can solve a lot of problems. So, um, as far as refi, you know this, this crazy corner of the climate world that deals with blockchain I have a former client to thank for that.
Jeremy Epstein:I was hired by a family office here in Boulder, colorado, where I live. They're called One Small Planet, doing fantastic work, and they were an early investor in Regen Network, in fact, and they were an early investor in Regen Network, in fact. So I got hired to look at this emerging space of we didn't call it refi at that point, but what are blockchain-based solutions since 2020, I think 2020. And I knew a little enough. I probably held a little Bitcoin at that point and thought this is pretty interesting as an asset.
Jeremy Epstein:But I got hired to really become smart in the space and once I went down that rabbit hole I'm sure, like many of the listeners, there was no coming back. It's like, oh, the solutions and the applicability of a blockchain is just so well matched to particularly the financial based challenges that we face in solving climate crisis, the biodiversity crisis, sort of any of the eco crises that we face. It just seemed like this is an emerging space to spend some time on and, luckily enough, you know, I was paid to do that and in doing that research. Actually that's how I found Open Forest Protocol really jived with that project, the founders and the mission of OFP and ultimately it made sense for me to join them as head of growth. And that's where I am today almost three years with OFP now.
Cash:That's a really cool narrative. What were you hired to analyze by chance? What was your research looking like when you, when you, got brought into the space?
Jeremy Epstein:yeah, um, there was some money to deploy and they were looking to invest in early stage projects to see who was building, what all those things interacted um and what they made the most sense to to start investing in a small portfolio. So, um, yeah, yeah, cool.
Cash:Well, I think you have a really interesting background. I think in this episode, it'd be interesting to dig into how your background in greenhouse gas accounting has now you know, propelled you into where you find yourself with OpenFORCE protocol and exactly you know. Let's dive into what OpenFORCE protocol is doing, as you know, at the base, and how it's interacting with other real-world assets, how it's being a tool deployed right now.
Jeremy Epstein:Yeah, I mean, as far as my background in GHG accounting, I think it really just goes to the fact that I've always been an entrepreneur and I saw an opportunity in my graduate degree this was 2007 when I started that um in advising companies in in their sustainability journeys and I realized a big part of that was okay. Well, we're gonna have to understand. The classic saying is you can't manage what you can't measure. So how do we start to measure a company's negative externalities and what do we do with that? And for me again, the market-based solutions have always been very interesting. I wrote my thesis on the EU emissions trading scheme. I just always thought that that was, if we can make these things work, this is the way to solve a lot of problems. So, yeah, I mean, I think my my journey really was aimed at becoming a consultant in the corporate world. And in 2000,. Around that time there was the Waxman Marquis bill just a quick bit of like climate history. There was a very, very close to passing. That was very, very close to having a cap and trade in the United States which would have essentially set the groundwork for a US-based regulated market. It didn't pass by a somewhat narrow margin and thus my trajectory to become well-positioned as one of the few people who know how to do this stuff. That didn't quite work out the way I envisioned, but everything always kind of works out for the better in the long run and if it weren't for that I wouldn't be here and I'm very happy where I am. So, yeah, so at OpenForest Protocol I wouldn't say I do much on the gas accounting side. Openforest Protocol solves some other problems that are very much finance related, but you almost have to unpack it to kind of get to the finance nugget within what OFP does.
Jeremy Epstein:Ofp a lot of our initial public facing communication over the last year has changed. Initially we were very focused on being an MRV protocol and MRV still forms the heart and soul of what the protocol does. What we really couldn't say at the time, just to be careful around legalities, around securities laws, was the fact that OpenForce Protocol is essentially a registry and an issuer of carbon credits. And at this point we can say that publicly because we have issued carbon credits and we are functioning as I could call it, sort of an early stage registry. And again, at the heart of that is an MRV system that does some things that aren't really being done in the market and I would say, are highly sought after, at least among thought leaders. As far as what do we need? To transform the voluntary carbon market into one that people can trust, people can invest in and you know, again, going back to my thesis, that is attractive to both missionary and mercenary capital and it's liquid, that's got good price discovery, that is fully functional as a market, because I think calling it the market today is something we can put air quotes around and so those functions that Open Forest Protocol presents are sort of the Web3 native data settlement layer, which, again, is something that is not really offered anywhere else. So let me just kind of break it down practically, because it's easy to talk in these like big, fancy, jargonistic words.
Jeremy Epstein:Really, what Open Forest Protocol does is we are a permissionless system that enables projects to register, become verified regularly, share data, have that data verified on a regular basis in a very unique manner and then, ultimately, from verified data, we can issue credits. From verified data, we can issue credits, and those credits have the capacity to be unique. Each one is essentially a semi-fungible uh token. So, um, that essentially unique trace, traceability of each individual credit allows us to uh and allows the world to see who buys them, at what price and, ultimately, what happens with those credits how many times do they change hands, uh, do they get uh retired and when do they get retired, etc. So it is a full lifecycle transparency that is, I would say yeah, not found within the market today and, I think, has the ability to transform the market once people really get to understand exactly what it is that we've built. So right now we've got about 90 projects on the protocol and again those projects come to us, they submit their initial documentation. We verify and whitelist them as an organization, as a project. We ensure that those projects are.
Jeremy Epstein:You know, this is under our first methodology, which is reforestation. So they have to be planting a certain number of native trees and then ultimately, once the project is verified, certain number of native trees and then ultimately, once the project is verified, then they are required to provide annual data uploads. Those annual data uploads again are put on the blockchain as raw, unverified data. What's really really interesting about that is having your data made public in a way that posting it on a blockchain does turns out to be one of the greatest disincentives to low quality projects or potentially nefarious projects that exist. Scammers don't want to be made public Interesting, and you know what can you do with raw and verified data. Again, it sort of in and of itself becomes a disincentive for bad projects, but then we need to make sure that that project is truly what it says it is, is comprehensive and organized in a way that is consistent with all of the other projects and is something that would be accepted ultimately.
Jeremy Epstein:When it comes down to this, data ultimately backs a credit. Is this data good enough to back a credit where we want to be issuing the highest quality, most data-backed credits on the market? And so that's where our verification system comes into play, so that data has a 30-day window in which dozens of independent organizations have an opportunity to review that data and again, reviewing was it comprehensive? They can see the pictures uploaded from sample plots within any individual project. They can see the historical data upload fall within essentially an assumed trend line of how that project would be maturing over time and vote essentially stake our native utility token on the confidence of their answer to either accept the data or to reject the data Ultimately, at the end of that 30-day period, if the project has more votes, or essentially, more tokens staked in favor of approving, then that project can move forward if it's approved to do so, to issue credits, and if not, then it would be rejected.
Jeremy Epstein:We have seen I think we've had probably 15 to 20 projects go through this process already 15 to 20 projects go through this process already. We've seen about probably 65% project approvals and 35% rejections, and that's really really interesting and good for us long-term. We want to know that that system works and we've absolutely seen it work. Why are projects being rejected? Not because they're bad actors. Mostly because we're enabling projects that haven't done MRV or carbon issuance before to be able to do so, and so there's a learning curve and they're learning that they have to be very, very consistent, very, very diligent and, quite frankly, there's a lot of UI UX improvements on our side that we can make in our making to make that process easier.
Jeremy Epstein:And again, we want to create a world, kind of an extreme end of OFP, where you know anybody can really become a an issuer of credits if they check the boxes. Right now, I think you know we are mostly engaging with with specialists, but there is a world where this becomes essentially the next gold rush. We want to be the base layer for enabling the ability to bring carbon assets to market that are both scalable and high quality, have both attributes. That people often say is a trade-off. You have to have one or the other, but we think both can live side by side, and that's where you disrupt markets is to have premium available to the masses, and I think that's something that we're working towards.
Cash:Absolutely. And the blockchain. Why blockchain? The scalability, liquidity, high quality transparency is all right there. It's not opaqued through different third parties or over-the-counter type intermediaries.
Jeremy Epstein:Yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of the early projects in ReFi were very much focused on, obviously, bridging and taking existing assets, putting them on chain and, of course, you get the traceability to some degree. You know, an opaque asset brought on chain is still an opaque asset on chain, but you can see what happens with it and it was a nice early step in the evolution of refi, I think, to do this bridging and to bring these projects on chain. But it didn't solve the fundamental issue of a low quality asset on the blockchain is still a low quality asset, of a low quality asset on the blockchain is still a low quality asset. So I mean, that's a really nice way of kind of summarizing like we're creating blockchain native assets that have all those attributes of, once it's created, how do we trade it, trace it, have that price discovery, but also how do we make something that is fundamentally data backed in a way that hasn't been done before. And that's kind of the essence of OFP's unique value proposition and ReFi.
Jeremy Epstein:We like to think of ourselves as something bigger than ReFi. It's really more about changing the way that nature gets valued and ultimately the extreme end of OFP again becomes. This is a movement. This is a value proposition that I think a lot of people have somewhat thought about or dreamed about. But how do we make this something that's as accessible as I hate the Uber4 analogy, but right, it's like you have a car you want to drive and make people around and make money. How do we say you have land, rather than planting soybeans or putting your cattle on? Than planting soybeans or putting your cattle on, let's put a native forest on, let's do an agroforestry project, or fill in the blank, because we will bring more methodologies to market. How do we do that and make it simple for you to access value for that, so you get essentially paid for the carbon drawdown and for the other environmental attributes of your project?
Cash:I love it. Yeah, I think that's where we need to be. We need to be encouraging and incentivizing climate stewards, people who want to do the right thing, to be able to make a living doing the right thing. So this is not financial advice disclaimer, but do you envision people with some land who reforest would be able to do like retroactive um type funding, um bounties? Or are you more envisioning the marketplace of the eco credits that get created to then have a value that can be traded and then, um you know, create revenue for the person growing the trees?
Jeremy Epstein:we, we imagine it all. I mean, again, open Forest Protocol. As the name would imply, we're very focused on forest and the A4 station reforestation methodology. Today, that's our team's core competency. Our CEO had previously run a tree planting NGO, but really the big vision here is the data-backed carbon issuance and registry for the future of the VCM, and so we are currently working on a mangrove restoration methodology. We are considering a number of other methodologies, the goal being, over time, to Even Vera. 25, 30 years ago, I think, their first methodology was cook stoves and now they have I don't know how many methodologies, but dozens, if not more.
Jeremy Epstein:At this point, we will be introducing additional methodologies on OFP as well, and I think to your question right now, a lot of this is what I would call a results-based financing. It's like you get the trees in the ground, you show us the impact and you show us the continued impact and we will continue to create credits for you which now have a market value, but that doesn't solve that upfront capital gap of how do you get this project in the ground to begin with. That's where I think the composability of blockchain and the way that we have built OpenForest protocol really like we have just barely begun to scratch the surface of the ability there. We again want to be sort of a base layer that does the data verification and the credit issuance for multiple credit classes. But when it comes to, let's say, a financing pool where you've got institutional capital on par with URI could pop in and, you know, stake a number of of tokens or stake value that gets invested into projects and then gets paid back on it, you know, with it with a positive interest rate over time, right like on based on verified growth and credit issuance, and and you know, obviously, the hopefully increasing value of carbon credits over time. Those types of ideas there's a lot of.
Jeremy Epstein:You know I don't spend a lot of time looking on the horizon of what's going on in refi to be fair, I've got my head down with OFP and a family here but I know that a lot of this infrastructure is being built, is being built and we intend to essentially Lego in to those types of infrastructures so that we don't have to build it all ourselves Again. If FARA wants to come along and say, hey, this is really cool, we've been thinking about something like this, but it would take us four or five years to build anything similar, they can propose a methodology on OFB and begin issuing credits. Or if somebody wants to build the financing engine of the future and I have a feeling that that's being built already from a few different parties that I've spoken to we can plug that in and I think that's really interesting. One of the pillars of our growth is actually not at liberty to really divulge any names, but we're talking with governments about how we can work with them. They have their, their article six requirements where essentially, they're setting up jurisdictional carbon markets and a blockchain becomes almost a perfect technological base there to to be able to track what's getting issued and where those credits ultimately are being sold and traded within jurisdictional boundaries and retired by the government or sold from one government to a next, et cetera, et cetera.
Jeremy Epstein:So, yeah, I mean there's the opportunities for governments to either tax the credits that get issued again with full transparency and the composability of the way that we've built OFP, that's totally possible. There's also the ability for governments to enhance projects. They really want to see projects get in the ground and the market saying $35 a ton for a credit. What if the government said we're going to throw in $6 for every ton created under this jurisdictional regime, which Open Forest Protocol handles the measurement, reporting, verification and credit issuance for. And now everyone's getting $42 a ton and maybe now that pushes the value proposition of does not make sense to run cattle on my land when I can get $42 a ton based on, you know, the tree planting density that we can do in our neck of the world. So yeah, I mean there's all sorts of ways to play with this, some of which we're already working on internally and some of which are, I think, being built among the ReFi ecosystem, and we hope to be able to connect with all that.
Cash:That's exciting. Yeah, we definitely want to keep up with how that develops. For the more technological question, just to remind our listeners they are familiar with the region network Are you guys built on region network? What are you guys using as your base layer?
Jeremy Epstein:Yep, we are built on NIR protocol.
Cash:NIR yep.
Jeremy Epstein:So we're an L2 on NIR. Our technological co-founder, product officer, michael kelly, has been building in the near ecosystem for a long time. Um so, yeah, as far as scalability, user friendliness, uh, it's been a great home base for us and, um, yeah, we're pretty excited about the, the near narrative over the next cycle.
Cash:I think it is really exciting that you are directly building the data layer into it and I think that is something that I ask a lot to my guests about MRV, and it's not something I ever thought I'd talk so much about, but it actually is getting really exciting because it is something that is seemingly one of the mechanisms that can further democratize this type of work. People I've interviewed in the past have said that a lot of the traditional problems with MRV are costly, labor intensive, need to get someone boots on the ground and that takes a lot of money. Democratized measure, report, verify and how DMRV has been able to decrease some of those costs and give more people the opportunity to participate in MRV. So where are some of the narratives that you're seeing, developments in MRV and how to kind of further allow citizen science and everyday people to kind of participate?
Jeremy Epstein:Yeah, I think it's all possible. And yes, the world today. You know your typical uh, barra, gold standard, plan, vivo type projects. You know you're going to be using a expensive project developer. You uh have to engage with the registry, often pay fees there um, you're talking often two to three to four years to get your projects ready to plan and essentially, product approved. You're going to have to pick a verification body off a list of approved verification bodies, many of whom we're actually working with within our own verification network. I should be clear like, that verification network that verifies projects on our network is made up of traditional VVBs that work under VERA, under gold standard, but also of unique remote sensing companies, even some blockchain companies. So, yeah, the barriers to getting a project set up today in sort of a traditional manner are the reason the system's not scaling. I mean, we're seeing a decline in deforestation, but that's not to do really anything with the voluntary carbon market. If you were to ask me what we? I mean those are the barriers that we need to solve, that we can't have hundreds of thousands of dollars out the door in two to five year development cycles to get products in the ground.
Jeremy Epstein:So, with this DMRV approach right. The idea is we can make this happen. We can get first credits issued within a single year. We can get the first data set uploaded in the first six months. We can get the project approved in the first couple of weeks and we can get things moving. And does it really really require phds to fly around the world to wrap a tape measure around a tree and collect that data? I mean, that is sort of a classic barrier to entry.
Jeremy Epstein:Uh, and that's I think that's what's meant. You know, has been the reason that we haven't seen more scale in in the reforestation market and in carbon markets in general. Um, so, you know, and looking at, like first principles, what are the barriers? It's capital. Uh, you know, we don't want any money to have to go out the door. An open forest protocol amrv is completely free to access, right, so you can submit your data for for your project to be verified, you can get your organization verified. All that comes at no cost. Openforest Protocol's business model comes on the back end. When credits get issued Automatically vis-a-vis smart contract, 8% of those credits are returned back to the network, distributed back to those who hold our native utility token, and then 85% of those credits are again smart contracted to go back to the project operator and everything is visible on a blockchain, so you know exactly where that data is going.
Jeremy Epstein:The MRV piece, again, is so critical to unlocking this and the citizen science. I really think it just comes down to the technology that's applied here. Right now, we're using a smartphone app of our own design that enables projects to go into forests themselves, go to their sample plots and upload the data as required. We're iterating on this regularly to make it simpler and simpler as we get more and more field reports and understand what's going wrong, what's going right. How do we make this easier and easier? And I think again, if we can remove all these barriers, we at least have the foundation for a scalable market to say look, this is something you can do, you can do it today and it doesn't cost you anything. That's the way to start. The way to really ramp it up is how do we actually infuse capital into this market to begin with and get people essentially paid to begin a project and not just focus on carbon and look at other ecological benefits?
Cash:Water, soil, biodiversity. Obviously an intact, healthy forest promotes a lot of those things other than just sequestering carbon. It creates a healthy ecosystem. Are you guys exploring any other assets at the time besides carbon, or have a roadmap for future ecological assets?
Jeremy Epstein:Yeah, I mean right now. Obviously, the carbon market is the most mature and to me, carbon is a proxy you can argue whether it's a good one or not for other things happening in nature. Yeah, I think the idea again being open forest protocol in its real essence is a system that collects and organizes data, verifies that data and issues an asset based on that verified data. So, taking those core functionalities in mind, we could be verifying water, we could be verifying all sorts of proof of impact. We want the market to sort of dictate and entities to come to us and say, yeah, here's something that we believe there's a market for, we believe there are buyers of these sorts of attributes and we want to go out and develop projects. And here's a methodology. We plan to begin supporting third-party methodologies, building on OFP, in the near future.
Jeremy Epstein:Internally, as I mentioned, mangroves are under development. Right now. We are looking at something to do with biodiversity and primary forests as well. Um, so that's a little bit earlier stage, but, um, but yeah, I would say in the next couple years we'll have multiple methodologies beyond just what we have right now, which is reforestation great and and essentially it sounds like that comes down to the creation of the methodology and the acceptance or agreement across the board of what is actually being measured.
Cash:When you're looking at healthy water, healthy soil, what are you measuring so that it can then be replicated by many people and accepted across the board? Is that kind of what needs to be developed then?
Jeremy Epstein:Yeah, that's kind of what needs to be developed, then, yeah, it's kind of the consideration. There's two ways to look at it. Right, if we're developing it in-house, it's very much like okay, yeah, what, what is going to be replicable? Uh, for them, for many, um, the other pathway here is okay, are you a um, a registry right now that has a market, has a recognized brand name, but you see the benefit of using a blockchain for creating a more data-backed credit. This is the example where, let's say, plan Vivo could say wow, okay, what they've built makes just a ton of sense and we're not going to replicate that.
Jeremy Epstein:What they can do is essentially white label a credit that gets issued through our system, that is fully data backed but also generated under the methodology designed by and essentially branded by that third party plan in this instance, and in that way, essentially, we can become a for for white labeling the issuance of credits. Uh, the same economic model can apply, or we can customize the economic model for, okay, how much should go to the project? Blah, blah, blah. How big is the buffer pool, essentially insurance pool, for credits? Um, yeah, these things can, these parameters can, can all be customized for for any individual, um, but I think as a base layer for data verification, collection and creating and issuing data back credits. This is really the core basic functionality that we're really really focused on, and I think from there it's like you can leap in so many different directions and we're excited to see where that goes.
Cash:Awesome, awesome, yeah. Would you be exploring other carbon sequestration methods that aren't necessarily planting trees, forest related, but other grassland restoration or adaptive grazing type?
Jeremy Epstein:Grasslands. We're talking with a major international NGO about a silvopasture. Some silvopasture works with our ARR methodology, some of it doesn't, but yes, so again, we're going to focus on forests for now, but the long-term roadmap, I think the sky is the limit. We could look at biochar, we could look at ocean-based solutions, I mean any carbon removal pathway that doesn't create its own usable product. And biochar is an interesting example because it creates a usable product. But it kind of needs a market-based solution as well, essentially a credit. But anything that needs a credit to essentially exist as an economically viable pathway, it needs MRV, and we believe we're just providing the best, most trusted MRV system that is, I would say, the most frictionless that exists out there. So anything that requires MRV, I would say, is ultimately fair game. It's just a matter of how creative can we get, how many resources can we get to create these new methodologies to serve these markets.
Cash:That's really cool and essentially the MRV portion is because you're then getting a credit attached to it, Whereas if it was a commodity, something that you're able to then just sell in a traditional market, you don't necessarily. It's traditional. You don't need this tool. It's not necessarily doing regenerative things that would, in traditional landscapes, were seen as philanthropy. Now, because of climate crisis, there's a monetary element to carbon. It has a price to it.
Jeremy Epstein:It has an ecosystem service to sequester it yeah, and even, I guess, even if it's, even if it's a product, say regenerative beef right, well, if you want to say that it's regenerative, how are you proving that? And a lot of people are. You know it's okay, like I can go down to the farm down the street and I know it's coming from there, so they don't need to have any third-party search buying that. But you go to the supermarket and it has a little label uh, I would say you know you're paying five dollars extra per pound or something like that probably needs an mrv behind it as well, because, again, if people are going to pay more or pay for something, they want certainty.
Jeremy Epstein:You know that it that it exists, it's, it's like, it's like the gold standard.
Jeremy Epstein:If you're going to back value with gold, you have to know that proof of reserve, you have to understand that gold actually exists in a vault somewhere or, essentially, the trust in the system falls apart and any economic model or currency requires trust in the system, and so if you have that, fundamentally, then it doesn't work.
Jeremy Epstein:But if you can really have that, if you can enhance trust in the system, that's where people, I think, will start to take notice and start to actually move their capital into that system. And again, that's kind of like part of the zeitgeist we're trying to create here is a more trusted, more data-backed credit, if we can really trust it and know that if a credit's issued, you can actually click on your screen within that credit. You can see the project from whence it came. You can see the raw data that actually supported its ultimate creation. You can see everything about how the sausage is made. I think that forms the basis for the transparent market that I think we need. If we don't get more transparent, I don't think the voluntary carbon market is going to exist in its current form for the next decade.
Cash:Yeah, that's powerful. I think too, with all the greenwashing that we see in this day and age, people lose trust in sustainability initiatives. They think that their scams are you know how much are they actually doing and if you can actually attach data to it, well, you can know if this agriculture operation, you know how much better they were for the soil health compared to the competitor, and then you can spend your money accordingly, with what has the most impact, and then you can spend your money accordingly, with what has the most impact. So I think that is an area where it would be really exciting to start seeing some of this data on some labels in the grocery store even, and not just have an organic sticker, but have a MRV label in a way.
Jeremy Epstein:Yeah, absolutely, and the quote unquote grocery store of the world today is online, right, so I mean where people are like buying things, not necessarily groceries, but you get it. Uh, right, I think it's. It's. There's a lot of really interesting synergies there as far as point of sale and again, with a blockchain, with the, the software and smart contracts that, uh, that exists to be able to know in a more certain way that if you're automating an offset based on a pair of shoes you buy, that that actually happens and I think we're starting to get there.
Jeremy Epstein:But there's so much information, there's so much education to happen in the general public for them to really see the value of the right now, and they kind of still see it as like a degenerative economic I don't know gamble. That is bad for the environment, right, like, yeah, we have to move past that paradigm, even within the climate world. Right, and I'm like most of my contacts within the climate world they're not blockchain related. Like most of my career has been outside of blockchain and refi space People are looking at me and looking at this industry as like, what the F are they doing? This doesn't make sense, but that, to me, is an indication. You better lean in and look into this, because if it doesn't make sense, there's something to learn.
Jeremy Epstein:But I think we as an industry just need to do better to help the climate world see the value. I see, I mean, I see, yeah, climate twitter accounts still like the meme being like oh, but is it on a blockchain? Right? It's like the joke and I like I. I think that that just belies a complete lack of understanding and it's not an easy conclusion to jump to. You've got to peel the wrapper back several times to really see the value here. Once you do, I I don't know if there's any coming back. It seems pretty undeniable to me.
Cash:Yeah, I mean. No, you're absolutely hitting it. That's why I have you on. That's why I'm trying to, you know, interview more people like you. You know, I think it's really incredible what you're doing for the space. Again, you know data needs to be transparent, we need to have facts and we need to be able to audit and see how we're doing and continue the fight against climate change and regeneration. Love that you and the Open Forest Protocol team are doing what you're doing. Anything we're remiss to not bring up before we sign off Anything. I didn't ask that you think we should cover.
Jeremy Epstein:No, I think we're pretty comprehensive. Uh ofp's got some big things coming this year, so make sure you give us a follow uh open force protocol on twitter x, etc. Um, we've issued our first credits. There will be many more coming um, and so we'd love to continue to build the community. And feel free to reach out to me. I am glass half crypto on twitter and let's start a conversation if anyone's interested awesome.
Cash:Yeah, we'll put the show note links for people to follow. And, yeah, what is the best way for people to support? Are you guys have issued credits, so are those credits now able to be purchased? Or like, what's the best way to support what you guys are doing?
Jeremy Epstein:Yeah, there's limited credits available right now and lots of demand, so we do have an interest list that's available on the website. The website also contains a link where you can see all of the raw data that I've been talking about. It's one thing to talk about. It's another thing to actually click through and see the trees in an individual project and pull that up off of IPFS and realize that, wow, this is immutable impact data that ultimately is generating value. So it's always fun and cool to check that out. Yeah, the website openforestprotocolorg has a ton of information, so go check it out.
Cash:Awesome. Well, jeremy, thanks again for coming on and having this nuanced conversation. I think it's really exciting to learn more about what you're doing, and thanks for being in the space. Thanks, Cash, it was fun. Cheers. Thanks to Matthew Patrick Donner for the ReFi Generation production, including the music mixing and editing. As a reminder, none of this is financial advice, and feedback is the breakfast of champions. Please subscribe to our show and send your thoughts, critiques and ideas for future content. Be well, take care of each other and do something good today.
