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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 58: Ontario Trails with Patrick Connor
Join Former Ontario Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette, who takes us on his fascinating journey with chaga, a health-boosting fungus. We also welcome Patrick from the Ontario Trails Council, who shares his passion for promoting trail use across Ontario and his personal connection to the Bay of Quinte.
Explore Ontario's vast trail system with insights into gravel biking, winter biking, and challenging mountain biking terrains. Learn the differences between managed and unmanaged trails and the importance of trail insurance and municipal roles in maintenance. We'll also highlight Ontario's longest trails, like the Trans-Canada Trail and the Great Lakes Waterfront Trail, and discuss the collaborative efforts of smaller communities in building these trail networks.
As we turn our attention to trail etiquette and safety, we offer essential gear tips for beginners, the importance of protective gear, and practical advice for staying safe.
Hi everybody. I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's Favorite Fishing Show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right Every Thursday, ang and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week?
Speaker 2:Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 3:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors.
Speaker 3:From athletes. All the other guys would go golfing Me and Garth and Turk and all the Russians would go fishing.
Speaker 5:To scientists.
Speaker 6:But now that we're reforesting and all that, it's the perfect transmission environment for life.
Speaker 3:To chefs If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 1:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are. Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.
Speaker 6:Find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 7:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Well, first of all, I want to thank all those listeners, as usual, from around the world and all those ones that are keeping us up in the top rankings in Ghana, just anything that we can do. You want to send us any questions or any other details about any of the things that you might be interested? Let us know and we'll see what we can do.
Speaker 7:Now, today was a normal morning up bright and early, out for my morning trail walk with Ensign Gunner, who his skunk smell for those that listen to the podcast regularly is pretty much gone now, except when he gets wet. He still has a hint of an eau de skunk out there from his spraying episode a while ago, but it was the usual. It was a trail that I built with the Parks and Rec director from the city of Oshawa, noel Hutchison, quite a few years ago. It's only about oh, I don't know what are we about three-quarters of a kilometer long, but we usually do it every morning. It's nice to go through a mature bush, usually do it every morning. It's nice to go through a mature bush nothing beside but the creek and did our usual, bring out a shopping bag and picked up the garbage that people leave empty water bottles, paper bags and other things that are left on the trail. We keep it nice and clean for everybody to enjoy, but today we have somebody a little bit special to talk specifically about trails. Patrick, tell us about yourself.
Speaker 6:Well, thanks a lot for having me today, jerry. It's great to be on the Under the Canopy Canada podcast. I'm kind of excited to hear from you. This is the kind of opportunity the Ontario Trails Council looks forward to having with people. It's a chance for us to get connected with the millions and millions of repeat and regular trail users like yourself. It's fantastic to hear that you're out for a walk today. Nice to hear that you were out enjoying the great weather and getting some help. At one point in time, the Ontario Trails Council, our lead ministry, was the Ministry of Health Promotion.
Speaker 7:Oh, really Right.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it was all about getting people out and getting them healthy. That was from 2005 to 2010. And we were part of a significant provincial program that brought us the Ontario Trail Strategy and the Active 2010 Agenda, and the whole plan for that in Ontario was to get 10% of Ontarians out and being more active, and the great thing about that is we achieved that and we've got more people than ever out and enjoying the trails, and there are a lot of significant things about trails that the Ontario Trails Council works to promote. We're a provincial charity, jerry, at one time, you know, we were actually a program of the Ministry of Natural Resources yes, for the people. You know, if you go back in the way back machine, way back in 1973 to 76, we were a program of the MNR dealing with trail users and trail activities on Crown land, and we've had a couple of iterations since then then and now we find ourselves today, you know, a nonprofit working on behalf of land managers and trail users and trail activities everywhere in Ontario.
Speaker 7:So where are you from?
Speaker 6:Patrick, well, I'm originally from Mississauga, okay, and so the south end of Mississauga, down near Port Credit Right, and I grew up there. I'm out on the beautiful Bay of Quinte now Been out here since 91. Okay.
Speaker 7:And for people to know essentially where the Bay of Quinte is. I know where the Bay of Quinte is because I had some exciting things happen there when the ministry wanted to shut down the walleye fishery there but we changed that but where? So people listening would know where the Bay of Quinte is, patrick.
Speaker 6:Well, the Bay of Quinte is a part of Ontario that really stretches from, oh, let's say you know, belleville, trenton, eastern, southeastern Ontario, southeastern ontario, along the north shore of lake ontario. Uh, prince edward county um is in the area and it stretches as far over I'm. The provincial office is in a small place called deserano. That's where I'm talking to you from now oh yeah and it stretches across the tyendinaga mohawk territory through to the mouth of the napanee river oh, okay, yeah, so people who are not used to it, it's east of Toronto.
Speaker 7:What about two, two and a half hours?
Speaker 6:I guess yes, depending on how you drive If the 401 is moving. Yeah, about two, two and a half hours, jerry.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I've driven that trail quite a bit, but it's a different kind of trail. So, patrick, how did you get involved in trails initially and then how did you get involved in Ontario trails?
Speaker 6:Well, it's kind of funny, Jerry. My father was trained in the Air Force for the Second World War and he had us out in southern Mississauga. We were always on our bikes. He was a big bike rider At 71, loaded his plane onto Aer Lingus and circumnavigated Ireland on his bike and so he had myself and my two brothers out cycling every weekend. But we were also.
Speaker 6:There were a lot of smaller nature trails in the south end of Mississauga so we were always out hiking. We were you know, that was back in the day when you were home, when the streetlights were on, and so my buddies and I we would be out on the trails hiking, cycling. We'd go to Kelso Conservation, rattlesnake Point, part of the Bruce Trail right In Milton. It was always just something in our family, my mother's family's from up north Nipigon, terrace Bay, scriber area. They've got some great trails up there in Red Rock and Nipigon and the King Horn and there are just trails everywhere for everyone to enjoy.
Speaker 6:But the short story is I'm trained as an economist so I get the economic value of trails. You know they're an equity investment that communities make, just like an arena or a pool, right. But there's a tourism layer because you can do destination marketing. So that appeals to my background as an economist. But I've also been involved in social services and in federal corrections for 10 years and even in the prisons there was a yard and physical activity was important for people and it's important for people in the community and so there's a real aspect of getting people out, just like with the Ministry of Health promotion. So it ties in for me in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 6:Grew up with it in my family, learned activity, did trips through Lorne Park Secondary School, algonquin bound. You know we were canoeing in Algonquin. My brother and I were lucky enough to have horses. So a bit of an equestrian, you know. But enough about me. These are all the activities that people can do, 23, 24 activities that people can enjoy on the trail and in the environment. And Ontario really is second to none in terms of its offering in terms of trails, the things you can do and the places you can go, and it's just wonderful in every community.
Speaker 7:So, patrick, I need to ask this question now because of what you brought up, and it's just wonderful in every community. So, patrick, I need to ask this question now because of what you brought up what did you do with the federal prisons?
Speaker 6:Oh, I was involved with something I ran, something called the Ontario Halfway House Association.
Speaker 7:Oh, so you didn't serve time for something. Okay, all right.
Speaker 6:No, that's the standing joke. Oh, you worked in prison. How long were you there for?
Speaker 7:Yeah, how long did you?
Speaker 6:serve. My stint was about 10 years, jerry, but I worked on behalf. I was a liaison between the parole services of the Correctional Service of Canada in Ontario, right. So I got into the prisons At one time. I did, you know programs, intake and whatnot. But it was really about these other good community-based organizations like the St Leonard Society, the Salvation Army, the Elizabeth Fry Society and others that operated parole halfway houses for people being released from prison.
Speaker 6:And you know physical activity. This is an interesting thing, jerry. You know the ministry used to say to me you're the only guy that could tie corrections and trails together. But unstructured leisure time, jerry, unstructured leisure time and who you hang with. A colleague of mine, dr Ed Letessa from Penn State, did a study and it was unstructured leisure time and who you hang with. That were the two top reasons for people getting engaged in crime. And if we can get people involved in scouts or a hiking club or something to do after school or schools, taking kids out, a love of nature, getting out and hiking, get on a bike, jerry. That's what we did as kids. We, you know our mom and dad said get out, get on your bike. We got you a bike. You know what it was great fun. You know we weren't hanging out getting in. Well, we were getting into fun trouble, we weren't getting into consequential trouble. So you know, jerry, these are here for everybody to use and they're accessible and nearby.
Speaker 7:Yes, yeah, it was the same when I was growing up. It was always okay, mom, we're going down to the creek, which was well across the road, across the road down past, through the back of the school, through the field, down the road and then down into the creek. Okay, be home for supper when the lights are on. And that was the way it was when we were kids. Not so much anymore. What a great adventure.
Speaker 6:Every day, around every corner, there was a great adventure. And Every day, every day, around every corner, there was a great adventure. And that's the kind of appeal that trails have for kids and adults alike. Good Lord, you get your dog out in the trail as long as they're on a leash, but look at the fun they have.
Speaker 6:It's all about exploring and it's right next door and Ontario offers such a huge inventory of so many different things to do and so many different places to go. It's great, it's fun, for whether you're a single adventurer or you're out with your family, or if you're a senior citizen and there's one near the like St John's Hospital in Toronto you know they put trails on the ground to help people, rehabilitate people, to get out and go for a walk and get some fresh air. So many benefits.
Speaker 7:How many trails are there in Ontario that would be registered with your organization, Because I know probably there's the Durham Trail in Oshawa, there's the Harmony Trail, there's the one that I built in Oshawa alone that probably are not registered with Ontario Trails. But how many would be listed or registered roughly with Ontario Trails?
Speaker 6:Well, I can speak for us, but or would you, would you like? Maybe is it okay if I talk a little bit about the total number, because you hit on an interesting point about registered.
Speaker 6:So we talk about trails in our organization. You know our board of 12 volunteers and the other knowledge experts that we brought in from the ministry. You know to come in with a definition of a trail. You know, sometimes an exterior path of travel, sometimes it's a road right of way, heck. Sometimes trails are named as cycling lanes. So it really varies depending on what you're talking about.
Speaker 6:But if I were to say, if you went to a page called Trail Forks. Trail Forks, all one word. They list about 40,000 trails for cycling and mountain biking, and then of course there's different types of mountain biking. You've got gravel, that for cycling and mountain biking, and then of course there's different types of mountain biking. You've got gravel that's in Ontario, yeah and then the graveling trails are gravel and that's a particular type of bike. And then you have winter or fat biking, they call it.
Speaker 6:And so those are fatter tires, Same trail, but you're using it in the winter. And then you've got your regular off-road biking. And then you've got mountain biking, where you're going to have chicanes and turns and jungle gyms and all these kinds of um, um, um tests for your riding ability downhill and uh seesaws and things like this, like so there's one activity, mountain biking, but there's four different types of it, there's four different styles, right? And so when you start talking about, um, the number of trails in ontario, for us we have about 2,478 trails listed in OntarioTrailsca. So what did we do? That's a little different. Well, you use the terms regulated, so we call it managed or unmanaged, what we really like to do it. We set the bar a little high for ourselves.
Speaker 6:We wanted to make sure that the trails were insured and responsibly looked after, just like you know how many lakes and rivers are there, but how many pools are there where the water's chlorinated, and you've got a lifeguard, right? That's the kind of differentiation we're talking about. So there's thousands and thousands of unmanaged trails. There's hundreds of thousands of places where you can make your own trail. You know you can go for a ride, you've got the equipment, you're going to go backcountry snowshoeing and you're blazing your own trail. But for Ontario Trails Council, we wanted to make sure that there was a recognised management authority. There was regular maintenance seasons and hours. We wanted to make sure that there was a recognized management authority. There was regular maintenance seasons and hours. We could provide some information so that people could know before they go the type of trail experience they were going to have. So we have about 2,450 on our website.
Speaker 7:So what do you mean when you say insured trails? What does that mean? So the municipality insures them, or does Ontario Trails, or the province, or how does that work?
Speaker 6:Well, jerry, you just created a second podcast for ourselves. Trail insurance is layered. In some cases the machine has it like a snowmobile or an ATV or a dirt bike. Then the federation that might promote access, so the OFSC, the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs also has insurance for the membership in the OFSC. So you've got the machine, you've got user insurance and then you also might have trail insurance, where the trail that they're on might be on Crownland or municipal or conservation authority. So you you can end up having three or four layers, be three or four layers deep.
Speaker 6:Now that's important because you are engaging in a use at your own risk, recreational activity, and the trails that we've registered at OTC are no different than registering a pool or an arena. Right, an arena is going to have insurance so that people can get in and play minor hockey, right. It's a facility or a recreational facility type of insurance. So that's why we want to let people know that the trail is insured. We don't want people going out and doing risky behavior, sitting on the side of cliffs or not walking or trespassing where they're not supposed to be. But in order to keep these recreational assets open, jerry, they need to have insurance. It's the best way to keep the um, the recreational facility, aka the trail, open right, um, otherwise you're at risk of lawsuit. You know, trip and fall, somebody getting hit by a bike, somebody not using their bike appropriately on the property, dirt bike, motorized activity. You know, in some ways we were talking a little bit about roads and the 401 being kind of. You know, if you get too much traffic on them people are at risk of bumping into one another. Dog bites anything, you know. So the insurance helps secure the infrastructure.
Speaker 6:Reason that it's important and most people don't realize is that trails are, you know, unless they're gated and closed down, you know, unless the park closed down. A huge part of our inventory is open 24-7. There were some studies that were done in the late 2010s and trail use in and around one major Ontario municipal area I think it was Orillia People were actually using the trails when the factories got off or the shift work ended and one-third of the trail traffic was between 11 and 7, and the municipality had no idea. So trails are open 24-7, usually in all kinds of weather, and they're available for use. So an arena or pool you can shut down and you can kind of control the activity. But people have an expectation in Ontario for their trails to be a little bit more Right.
Speaker 7:So what's Ontario's longest trail?
Speaker 6:Patrick, well, bruce, yeah, good call, good call. There are a number of trail brands, like, if I answered that question, probably the Trans-Canada Trail that stretches from one end of Ontario to another, right, 4,460 roughly. But now you have the Great Lakes Waterfront Trail that goes all the way from the Quebec-Ont right through to Attaquok and Ignace and beyond, right. So they've done a lot of great work. With the Great Lakes Waterfront Trail You've got very, very long stretches of the OFSC Snowmobile Trail 1100 kilometers. They're their top system of trails, for example. So they vary by activity and I don't mean to be splitting hairs, but a lot of those other Trans-Canada Trail, great Lakes Waterfront Trail, they're kind of trail brands and what we've done at OTC is we recognize the smaller communities that put those trail links together to make the Trans-Canada Trail, because you'll have Trans-Canada Trail in Brockville, you'll have Trans-Canada Trail in Toronto.
Speaker 6:They're all individual segments that are linked together like a sausage, if you will, sausage links, and then you end up with one big long sausage. But I think you're pretty good there with the roughly 800 kilometer Bruce Trail. It's kind of contiguous one end to the other, right, people often do the end to end. You know people get badges for that kind of thing. But there are a lot of really significant regional trails. You know the Guelph to Goderich Trail. It's about 127 kilometers long. The Ottawa Valley Recreational Trail is roughly 304 kilometers long. But if somebody had to ask me if I was talking about the longest, probably say the Trans-Canada Trail in Ontario.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I know, when I was growing up we had a great scoutmaster, mr Ridge, and he was a great. He was a principal at the high school local high school and the specialty badge in the scout troop that I was in was for hiking and I know he used to take us on a regular basis to the Bruce Trail Right.
Speaker 7:And we'd get two vehicles, usually one vehicle to drop us off where the car was set and then the other vehicle would go to the other end where we'd start and we'd walk to the car. Fantastic, yeah, it was pretty good. It was very well organized, he did a good job and you know he was one of the big building blocks in my life, mr Ridge, he did a good job and you know he was one of the big building blocks in my life, mr Ridge, and you know I thank him for all his influence. Because the hiking of the Bruce Trail I know I did over 200 miles of that trail at that time Because I think it was 50 miles to get the specialty badge and I had four of them. And I also, you know there was the Ganaraska Trail that we hiked as well, along with a number of the other trails. But the Bruce Trail Association I think there's an association there that kind of monitors and regulates that trail as well, if I remember correctly. Yep.
Speaker 6:Mike would give a shout out to our good friend Mike McDonald, the CEO. They do a lot of work in landowner relations, securing conservation lands from well-meaning Ontarians. Many of them leave it as a legacy and those lands, when they're left to the Bruce Trail, are conserved. And what are they conserved for? Well, trail use.
Speaker 6:So it's Ontarians helping Ontarians through that organization and they have a whole series of Bruce Trail clubs, like Iroquois you mentioned Ganaraska, there's Niagara, there's the Bruce and up and down its entire length. Those clubs have some responsibility for taking care of their section. They have their nonprofits, they rely on local volunteers, they have those kind of partnerships with scouts and guides and kinsmen and rotary and all these other community based groups to help make these trails run. And the community involvement you know these are significant community assets that when you get that kind of involvement with some help from local government and the Ontario Trails Act, when that came in in 2016, it made easements easier for people to understand and secure so people could leave land in trust for trail development to a group like the Bruce Trail Conservancy or the Escarpment Biosphere Conservancy or the Frontenac Arch Biosphere Reserve and others.
Speaker 7:And I know when I tell you.
Speaker 6:Jerry guys like your scout leader. You know those guys are gold in our in our trail environment. You know what a difference they make in people's lives.
Speaker 7:Oh yeah, when we would go, he would assign each of us to bring a garbage bag with us and we'd pick up garbage to make sure what was it? Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints. Yeah, and it was all about building memories. And I recall the very first time that I hiked the Bruce Trail it was just after a morning mist and there was a rainbow, ending in a pond right in front of us where we were about to start, and it was the memories like that that inspire you to go back and see different things.
Speaker 7:Now I know two of the other individuals, james and Bert, in the scout troop. They had a little bit of probably a different memory up on the northern part up in the Bruce troop. They had a little bit of probably a different memory on the northern part up in the Bruce where their probably number one memory would be coming across a rattlesnake, the Massasauga rattlesnake. That gave them quite a shock and had them tramping down the trail to get away to make sure, because it was the first time they realized there was actually rattlesnakes in Ontario.
Speaker 6:But you know what, when you get together with those guys, you've got stories to swap. Oh, yeah, right, you've all been out on a trail, you've been in and you know what You're going to. That mist story, the vistas in Ontario. The sunsets on Lake Huron, gro Cap up near Sault Ste Marie, the vistas, the Lake Superior you know Moussini. The Ottawa Valley, gatineau I know Gatineau Park's in Quebec, but so many people go to the Gatineau for cross-country skiing and the mountain biking. There are so many places in Ontario where you can create your own adventure and your own story, and there's nothing nicer than getting around and sharing the pictures. Social media is huge for us, and it just you know what, though? It's just not about people showing. It's a funny thing. It's not just about people showing and taking the selfie, but it's people showing other people. You can do it too, you know. Just follow a few simple rules, and this is here for your enjoyment as well.
Speaker 4:Back in 2016,. Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.
Speaker 5:Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.
Speaker 4:Thus the Ugly Pike podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North.
Speaker 5:America. Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike podcast. Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous fish of 10,000 casts.
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Speaker 7:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Hi, it's Jerry from Chaga Health and Wellness. We're here in Lindsay with Tula, who is actually from Finland and uses Chaga. Tula, you've had some good experiences with Chaga. Can you just tell us what that experience is?
Speaker 2:Yes, I got sick with fibro, and one weekend my husband came here alone. I was home and he brought your leaflet.
Speaker 7:Right.
Speaker 2:And I read it and I said next weekend when we go to a market we're going to buy some. And so we started putting it in our morning smoothie.
Speaker 7:Right.
Speaker 2:And among a few other things that I was doing. Because of that, the chaga has been the steady one Right. I would not want to live without it.
Speaker 7:Oh good, yeah, so it's been working for me Very good, lots of ways, and you had some good luck with blood pressure as well.
Speaker 2:Oh right, yeah, Thanks for remembering that. That's yeah, I had a little bit of high elevated blood pressure and within two weeks of starting that every day, every morning, it went to normal.
Speaker 7:And you think the chaga was the reason why.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't do anything else in that time frame Very good.
Speaker 7:And so how much chaga did you have and how did you have it?
Speaker 2:Well, we just put that powder in a smoothie, right? And it's about a tablespoon? No, it's less than a tablespoon for two of us. Yeah, so you don't need that much.
Speaker 7:Right, but a teaspoon yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:Very good. Well, thanks very much for sharing that. We really appreciate that and wish you all the best with the Chaga. Oh, you're from Finland as well, and Chaga is pretty popular in Finland, is it not?
Speaker 2:I think it probably is, because there are some professors in a university that start teaching it and talking about it and of course, it's big in Russia.
Speaker 7:Right.
Speaker 2:Because that's where you know the northern woods that comes from. Yeah, and of course, finland has lots of birch trees.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, and it's the only mushroom that you can't forage in Finland. You have to forage everything else, but not Chaga.
Speaker 7:Oh, very good. Well, thanks very much for sharing that. Okay, have a great day you too. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY, c-a-n-o-p-y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chega tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening.
Speaker 7:Back to the episode. You mentioned quite a bit of stuff about the various uses of trails. Now I know when I had the privilege to serve as minister, there was always the discussion about who had the lead in trails, whether it was Ministry of Natural Resources, ministry of Tourism For the first time I didn't realize that Health Promotion Ministry was involved as well or Economic Development and Trade, and there was always posturing back and forth about who had the lead in the trails and some of the big issue became into the usage of the trails. So you talk about, because there's so many multi-use trails around, how do you distinguish? Or how do people find out Because I know some of the big ones up Port Perry Way, north of where we are, that a friend of mine was snowmobiling on the snowmobile trail there, had his license and all the rest of it, and he come around a corner and a dog sled team's coming down the snowmobile trail and it was kind of concerning to him because somebody had to hit the field and it wasn't the dog sled team, right, and so how do you manage that?
Speaker 7:And especially with some of the new changes come forward. So you talked about mountain biking. Well, what about these electric mountain bikes that are out there now? Um, they don't fall, they fall into a completely different category. And how does that all get managed or figured out? Or how do you, you know, determine multi-use trails and how do people know which ones are for hiking only and non-motorized and that sort of thing?
Speaker 6:well, jerry, great question, great short question, long answer. So I apologize to listeners right now. The interesting thing about each each trail in our analysis in Ontario, for every kilometer in length, has on average 2.79 uses. Let's call it three. So if you visualize, if you put your right hand lower and your left hand above, and then your right hand above your left hand and you just stair step like that, that's what a multi-use trail looks like. It's layered.
Speaker 6:The complication, as you've raised it, is it's unlike an arena or pool. You know you don't put four hockey teams playing two hockey games on one sheet of ice. You don't put. You don't put the dive team in the pool. The same at the same end of the pool you're doing your aqua fit.
Speaker 6:But in trails, trails got out ahead of everybody in terms of management and planning. And there's two reasons. One, it's value for money. Look, if we're going to build a trail, we want as much public access to that trail as possible. So not a bad thing, right? Like if the municipality or the conservation authority or whatever is going to invest in the trail, let's make sure people use it. So let's not deny any access because you're going to build it anyway.
Speaker 6:The problem. The second thing is, though, that creates a different problem, because, just like you only can have one car in a lane on a road safely, you run into the same issue. It's almost like a traffic control problem when you get on these multi-use trails, because the pedestrian isn't going at the same speed as the cyclist. Who's not going the same speed as the dirt biker? Or, in winter, the snowmobiler certainly isn't going the same speed as the dog sledding crew. Right, that's, that's your exact story, right there. So who's going to move? So you can post signs that talk to trail etiquette we encourage. We've got a trail classification system. We classify the trails by their use, so the user can know Are you going to have a passive, is this trail a passive walking experience, or is it more a wilderness trail where you can, you know, have added on your machine according to posted speed and your own capability, right?
Speaker 6:So, when it comes to a multi-use trail environment, there are tools and techniques, there's signage, there's education, there's licensing of the unit and the driver, there's control measures that you can put in, not long driving lanes, but put some curves in and some traffic calming measures, just like those bumps at the shopping mall. Put them on your trail. Bollards and gates help. But here's what we've really learned, right, like if you go back to the criminal justice thing I was talking about with corrections, there's something you can either do you know you can do the hard time, or you can get involved in a diversion program. You know you can do the hard time, or you can get involved in a diversion program. So it's always better to get probation and diversion. So what do we try to do? We try to divert people to trails that are the trails they want to use by their activity right.
Speaker 6:So on a multi-use trail, you expect and respect other users. That's a trail etiquette. You post those signs and you post the allowable uses and you ask other people to stay off. But what do we do with the people that we don't want on that trail? Well, make sure that we built a trail for the dirt bikes or the ATVs or horses to go to. And that's been part of our strategy for the last 20 years of the OTC is letting people know where they can go and build out the capacity so if they can't go there, they have somewhere else to go. So they're not trespassing on farmers fields, they're not hopscotching across roads where they're not allowed in the right of way to get to the trail where they're allowed. It's about building the infrastructure so that you can unstack the uses, separate them out, educate the users right.
Speaker 6:The OFSE is an excellent driver training program. The Ministry of Transportation is a great partner in terms of licensing. Get your license for your dirt bike or your ATV. Work on your horse etiquette and post the expect and respect and yield to other uses. Um, the expectation is always that the higher speed use is going to yield to the slower uses and the best thing those users can do is take a um, take a training program for that use. Just don't buy the ATV. Learn how to ride the ATV properly.
Speaker 6:Reach out to the Ontario Federation of All Trained Vehicle Clubs. Join a club. That's just like we were talking a little earlier. These clubs exist in your neighborhood. Seek them out. Peer education, peer support. You can still have fun, but you can do it with other people in a managed way. It's not going to take the fun out of your activity. You're going to be able to enjoy the beautiful outdoors of Ontario, but the best way to make trails safe know where you're going, have a plan, get educated. Join a club.
Speaker 6:Now, jerry, how do you find that out? You go to a website like ontariotrailsca. We have the trails, we have the hours of operation, we have a club affiliation, we have events listed on those trails. Go to an event. Go hiking with a club. Become a hike leader through Hike Ontario. Learn how to do it safely, learn how to expect and respect other users and use the clubs. Use your clubs. Use a website like ontariotrailsca. Hike Ontario has a website. They'll teach you about the training. The OFSC has a website OFATV, oftr All of these user activities that we post on our site.
Speaker 6:The Ontario Alliance of Climbers, the Ontario Federation of Sled Dog Sports for dog sledding. Ontario Equestrian has a great website. Learn how to ride your horse. Join a pony club. Join OTRA, the Ontario Trail Riders Association. They take people out on horses on approved trails all the time. Find IMBA Canada or AMBA, the Ontario Mountain Bike Association. You can find those clubs through the Ontario Trails Council website or you can go to their individual list. They love to have people involved, they live for this stuff, they love to educate and that's how you actually make trails fun but safe.
Speaker 7:Right, yeah, because it always was an issue about, and I know I think the Ganaraska Forest has non-motorized sections and motorized sections.
Speaker 6:You can do that. You can do that. You can do that, but 95% of the trails on the OTC website are shared or mixed use, so, while it is an issue that can be managed with insurance and signage and proper risk management technique that can be managed with insurance and signage and proper risk management technique the best thing, though, is an educated user, and an educated user that belongs to a club, so that it's it's. It's okay. It's okay, we're going to go out, we're going to have some fun together, and that actually makes it safer for everyone, because, you know, if you're, do you really want to be in the woods on your own? You know it's from wilderness first aid to other survival skills. It's always better to be out with a buddy, and at least when you did that Ganaraska hike you're 200 miles you knew there was a car at the other end, right, exactly.
Speaker 6:You wouldn't exactly want to be out there wandering in the woods on your own, even with GPS and new technology. Yeah, you're a lot safer than you used to be. But who wants to do these things on their own? It's more fun with a friend. So there are a lot of websites. If you want to find out where those other websites are, you can go to Ontario trailsca. We have a that hundreds of clubs listed. We have trails and trail management people listed. You can search by activity. You can search by regions of ontario. You can put in your own town. Our website has all of that information that you're looking for for a fun experience. And the interesting thing about our website, jerry, is where are you right now, jerry?
Speaker 2:are you in toronto of?
Speaker 6:course. Well, you know what. If you went on that site, you can search your local trails first, you can make your own itinerary. Let's say you've been to your trail, that three quarter of a kilometer trail a lot. You want to seek out a new experience? Our website will tell you all the trails around you within 25 kilometers. So the intro. We were talking about crowding before.
Speaker 6:The best use of the OntarioTrailsca website is, as a result of COVID, a lot of places put in maximum limits and reservation systems. So if you find out a place is full, like Jerry's favorite trail is full, you can use the website to find another trail near you that may not be full and you can still get out for a hike. So one of the things that we found through the development of the Ontario Trail Strategy people didn't know where to go, they didn't know what trails were suitable for them and they didn't know. And so that's what we created with ministry support and the Ontario Trail Foundation support. Shout out to those two. Thank you for your support.
Speaker 6:Over the years We've created Google's number one. If you Google Ontario Trails, we come up number one on Google, and we have for 11 years. So 1.5 million people find us annually, jerry, and it leads to about 6 million planned trips out. So we're grateful to the ministry and we're also grateful to the people of Ontario who gave us this position in this website through two rounds of public consultation. So we've tried to create something that people can use so that they can find out where to go and make it a best fit for them. Find out where to go and make it a best fit for them.
Speaker 7:And from a municipality's perspective as well, trails had an additional benefit to the one that I built with the local, with Noel Hutchison, the Parks and Rec Director. There used to be a lot of pit parties in this area and people were using it in an inappropriate fashion to the local community, and once we put the trail in and people started using it, other people stayed away. So it was, and that was one of the things that we had to clean up was all the broken bottles and all the rest of the garbage there to make sure it was a clean site. But now we don't have that problem in that area. So it had additional benefit of bringing value to the community in removing some of the stuff that did not bring value to the community, absolutely true.
Speaker 6:You go around to do real estate developments, housing developments and from Markham to throughout the GHTA.
Speaker 6:They advertise that they're near or close to trails. Yep, the name trail is in a lot of the street names, right, vista Trail. Brampton's done a great job with all of that kind of nomenclature and then that type of in the neighborhood access. You go out your backyard gate, you're right on a trail. It's just, it's now. You're right on a trail, it's just, it's now. And you're absolutely right. There was a lot of work that we did with the Ontario Federation of Agriculture. There's concerns about agriculture and trespass, but having eyes on the environment actually causes crime rate to go down. Right, and it's just an awareness. You know, it's just people who are watching. Homeowners are sensitive to the fact that somebody might have a trip and fall, but you're covered by that under your homeowner's insurance. You know there are and you're, and the trail is covered by the Occupiers Liability Act. So you know it. It it really is. The onus really is on the user to behave responsibly and stay on the trail, and that's what it's there for.
Speaker 7:Right, patrick, I know I had a friend up near Almonte and his neighbor.
Speaker 7:We were over having an evening with them and a discussion and he'd just come back from his training session for his trail and he carries a pack and he goes out and was walking on a regular basis to get in shape because his holidays were going to I believe it was Scotland and what they did.
Speaker 7:The trails utilized there go from community to community, right, and so what he would be was getting used to hills and climbing and carrying a pack and all that and they would do long treks between communities and then stay in the next community in the local pub and that sort of thing. And it was quite a bit different experience from what I saw that he was doing, from what I had been used to seeing in Ontario. Is there things like that in Ontario that link communities? Because I know a lot of snowmobiles. One of their economic development aspect is they ride to various communities to fill up, to stay overnight, to use the restaurant, and that's essentially what they were doing in Scotland with this hiking. It's the same thing. Do they have that same sort of thing here?
Speaker 6:in.
Speaker 7:Ontario or in.
Speaker 6:Canada. Yes, your example of the OFSC is a classic example of you know, destination to destination experiences. Right, you're getting a complete package. Mountain biking is a little different than long distance touring because mountain bikers like the intensity of the experience, so you have high, intense, minimal distance. Now, on-road cycling, though, is more like your snowmobiling experience. So, a group like the Great Lakes Waterfront Trail, they actually plan those rides out with riders and they hold major events. Plan those rides out with riders and they hold major events.
Speaker 6:Right, um, ontario by bike does a lot of um route planning. Uh, for on-road, uh cyclists um cycle. Ontario used to deal with um packages like that. Um, there are groups that plan. It depends on your activity though. If you're, if you know, atving, not so much because atving is a lot like mountain biking, it's an intense um. It's not really a touring, it's more of a short distance, intense ride. So you might go to a particular forest, like the ganaraska you know forest, for example, um or others, and um you're going to stay local. You still need those supports, you know, unless you're staying at a friend's house, but you're going to need those local restaurants. You're going to need the local hotels. Many of the resorts in Ontario Blue Mountain, horseshoe, I think of Hardwood, ski and Bike. They're affiliated with tour operators or major resorts that if you call them they'll help you with the package. They offer those services. You know, it's not unlike when you go south to an all inclusive resort and they'll offer you the package to go out touring or treetop trekking and that kind of thing, trekking and that kind of thing. It's no different in Ontario there are groups that will help you plan.
Speaker 6:The real deal for a lot of people is to get in touch with the DMOs right, the destination marketing organizations, or we at Ontario Trails. We list our trails by regional tourism organization. So, for example, york, durham Headwaters, rto6, shout out to Chuck Thibault and his team. Rto3, hamilton, halton and Brandt. They'll offer packages through their RTO Destination Northern Ontario, rto13, a, b and C. They're the people at the regional level who know about the local packages in the Sioux or the Lakehead or Marathon right, the Group of Seven Trail, for example, right, and they'll help you find the places. They'll help you find the places. They'll help you find the bookings. Wacamacong, unceded you know they've got the Point Grandin Park right next to Killarney. Luke Wasijeg and his team up there. They'll help you find the place to stay. So the Ontario Trails website lists the trail offering by the regional tourism organization. We'll get you connected with the local destination marketing organization. All that to say, we can get you to the people who know the tours and know the offerings.
Speaker 7:Right, yeah. So what about what people are taking Because they used to have a dog? So what about what people are taking Because they used to have a dog and I don't think they took their dog to Scotland when they hiked and they were walking from community to community and staying in the next community in the local pubs and that sort of thing. But when you're taking your pets on the trail, any advice there or suggestions, or what about ticks and things like that?
Speaker 6:Oh well, ticks, yeah, ticks have become a problem. So you have to take a wear and you have to prepare. So socks, lawn pants, um, but you know, pest repellent, bug repellent, right now, what, what about? What about snoopy? Yeah, the number one problem, according to land managers, I guess a few years back, probably still is dogs off leash on trails. Not people, not high speed machines, people not following the rules, not overcrowding Dogs off leash.
Speaker 6:Look, your dog might be your best friend, but your dog's lit around by his nose and he doesn't necessarily know the people coming the other way. Um, right, he might be friendly to you, you're no stranger. Um, and we also talk about dog safety and dogs being on leash, which is law in Ontario. Uh, your dog has to be on leash on the trail, unless, of course, there's a leash free dog park. So we actually advertise. We need a better inventory, we need to build it up. We don't have all the trails, we don't have all the locations, but we're just a voluntary sector organization doing the best we can. But we started the list dog free I'm sorry, dog free, leash free dog parks on our website, because if you want to take Snoopy for a run, take him to the appropriate place. Look, you know, don't snowmobile on that urban pedestrian trail. It's not built for that, it's built for snowmobile. Trails are built for snowmobiles.
Speaker 6:So, that's where you snowmobile Trails are built for dogs, but dogs on leash, and it's. You know it goes on. You still see it on social media. You know I met with my dog. You know the thing of it is. It's like speed on trails, jerry. You know it's just because, well, I'm not likely to get caught If I let my dog off the leash. Is there anyone around? No, should you do it? No, please don't, because here's the other reason you don't know where your dog is going to end up. I you.
Speaker 6:I see a lot of stories in this office. There used to be, no, a group out of um, I think it was, uh, battle walk. There was a group on a battle walk called no traps on trails because there was trapping going on in the area and somebody let their dog run out and the next thing, you know, the dog's killed by a, by a trap, and so they were all about, well, there shouldn't be traps on trails, no, but the trapper had approval right. The trap was 150 feet away from the trail. How, how did your dog get over there?
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 6:Your dog got over there because he wasn't on right. He wasn't on a 150-foot leash, he wasn't on a leash at all. I mean, my heart breaks for the loss of their dog, but when you break it down, the leash is there for your dog's safety, just like the other rules are. Jerry, we want everyone that uses an ontario trail to go out and have fun, but we want you to have fun and come back alive that's right planning a trip.
Speaker 6:Have you ever? Have you ever been to the um orange headquarters? You know the? Uh orange ambulance helicopter service? No, I have not. Oh man, it's a logistical center. It's like NORAD and uh, at any rate, those guys and you see it. You see them doing rescue, rescues. You know the? The orange helicopters are flying way, way up North. You know canoeists, somebody stuck. Plan ahead, plan, keep your dog safe, put it on a leash, save yourself the rescue, save yourself the heartache.
Speaker 7:Yeah so. Patrick, when somebody's first, starting out, what sort of basic equipment for walking, hiking trails do people need? Because there's obviously. We've talked about, you know, the horse trails, the dog sled trails, the bike trails, the ATV, the snowmobile, the bike trails, the ATV, the snowmobile, but for somebody just walking and hiking what kind of basic equipment do they need in order to get out and have a good time in a safe manner?
Speaker 6:Well, I would investigate some good hiking shoes. There are a variety of companies like Keen or Merrill. Make sure your shoe fits. Make sure you're wearing the right type of socks. You know something breathable, something that wicks away any perspiration. You, you want probably the most breathable shoe you can have, um, something that's durable, perhaps waterproof. Please stay off the trails if they're muddy. I mean, I know people want to wear you know what it's just like. What's your dog doing off the beach? Well, don't want your fear, so you shouldn't be out. You shouldn't be out wrecking the trail tread when it's money. So please watch the shoulder seasons, folks. Um, you know.
Speaker 7:So it really begins with your footwear, your socks and your shoes something not too heavy, though I know, because a lot of the um, the midway boots can be very heavy as well, whereas, yeah, I've got a couple of pairs of those, but I also have some lightweight ones which very heavy as well, whereas I've got a couple of pairs of those, but I also have some lightweight ones which are waterproof as well that are much more enjoyable, very wise.
Speaker 6:Because it's not about starting out. Think before you go about. The last time you got home and how tired you were. That's what you're going to be bringing back with you. So you're quite right Something lightweight, durable that's going to last your whole trip. You know I'm not a big fan of you know, fewer laces the better. That's just me. I'm old. I hate, you know, tying up laces.
Speaker 7:Well, I hate those round laces because they always come undone. The flat ones don't.
Speaker 6:Yeah, you're right, and so I would start with the footwear. Is your, your, your best asset? To start? Um, I always wear long pants. Uh, people think I'm kind of.
Speaker 6:But get breathable long pants, maybe something with a flap and some mesh on the leg so it breathes. Uh, why ticks I'm? You know this lyme disease. I god, why my? I have a friend who who got it and it's debilitating and you don't want it. And, um, you know, like we were talking about dogs, sometimes it can that another reason to keep your dog on a leash. If he's wandering in the bush, he can get the tick. That's what happened to my friend the tick. The tick went from the dog onto him. Next thing, you know he has the Lyme disease, so keeping your dog on a leash is also preventative for disease. But long pants, long pants and bug repellent. You know that's where most of the once you're through June, black fly season, as we call it, or mosquitoes, and you get into this time of year, you know, august, and into fall, but bugs in the upper body aren't going to be much of a problem.
Speaker 6:But you know you ask about gear and footwear. You know who I turn to. I turn to other users. This is where clubs can be an asset. And I mean, I know we're talking about hiking, but if you're on a horse, you're up a certain height. Have you ever been whipped by a? You whipped by a tree branch or a raspberry bush that's growing six feet high?
Speaker 6:When you're like I, have burrs and other things, motorcycles, even at a certain speed, you want shin protection, the hand guards on the handlebars. Even if you're on a mountain bike or an e-bike, you want to have some of this other protective gear because when you're going, like you say, with that dog sled and snowmobile, you never know when, even on your own, you might end up over in the bush. So you know, protect yourself. Long sleeves, breathable, you know, take a look at, know something about the trail you're headed to and just think to yourself am I properly dressed if I end up in the woods? You know if I have to extricate myself from somewhere, do I want to get all scratched up? Or do you know what about eyewear, goggles, safety glasses, safety sunglasses? You know it's all good, but if you have a trip and fall and you hit a low hanging branch or branch or something, you know it can happen will it happen?
Speaker 7:I don't know, but I know I feel more comfortable if I have that those extra layers on oh yeah, and when, when we used to hike to bruce, we had a day pack with us and and the scout master, mr ridge, always had the same saying the and everybody knows what's on the top of your pack it's your rain gear. It's because the number one thing on the top is the rain gear, because you need to. If it starts to rain all of a sudden, then you can get it out quickly and keep everything dry. But yeah, it was a small stuff like that that made a difference and more enjoyable, sure, a?
Speaker 6:holster free, a holster for your cell phone, something to carry it, a fanny pack with a couple of band-aids and maybe some antiseptic or some spray, and certainly water, water, water, water. You know, take it in, carry it out with you. You know, carry out whatever you take in. That's good trail etiquette. But you know, making sure you have water. You know you don't making sure you have water. You don't want to get dehydrated out there or know where you can get some. Plan your trip into manageable bites, right. Sure, I might be doing 100, 200-kilometer hike, but let's do it 10, 15 kilometers at a time.
Speaker 5:Do I have a?
Speaker 6:restaurant? Do I have a rest stop? Are there amenities? Is there a place where I can refill my water bottle? You know things like that.
Speaker 7:Well, patrick, I think we've covered a lot of ground on a lot of different areas. But now how do people or how do somebody find out more about your organization, or where can they get details about your organizations, or where to find trails and that sort of thing, and give us a bit of a background on the best way to contact or reach out or find more details?
Speaker 6:well, like everybody nowadays, probably through our website, um, www, if people use that, or if you just put in ontario trailsca, ontario trails with an s, all one wordca. All of our contact information is on there the cell phone for phone connection, email, but we also list all of the clubs. You can find the local trails and the local supporter, your own municipality or your local conservation authority, provincial park, national park, other individual trail management organizations like the Grand River Land Trust, ontario Nature. So many of these other organizations are listed on our website. But the best trick is to search local through the website. Put in your city or your town or your hamlet and it'll show the trails that are near you and the trail pages will tell you who supports that trail, either with events or management or other clubs.
Speaker 6:And that's really our, our number one resource. We're, of course, on all sorts of social media. We're on Facebook and Ontario trails on Facebook looks up that way. The formal name of the organization is Ontario trails counseling, but we like to go by Ontario trails. It's just easier for people to search and find us. So the formal name of the organization is Ontario Trails Counseling, but we like to go by Ontario Trails, it's just easier for people to search and find us.
Speaker 6:So certainly Facebook. We have an Instagram account. Again, ontario underscore trails. We're on other social media platforms, but those are really the big three ways, jerry Our own website, our Facebook page and then Instagram.
Speaker 7:Well, thanks very much, patrick. We really appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast with us. I think people gain a different perspective of where they can find some trails to enjoy, and it's just another way for people to get out and enjoy life under the canopy. Thanks, patrick, thank you, jerry.
Speaker 6:Have a great day.
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