Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 69: Bird Migration Mysteries with Natalie Savoie
Ever wonder what it's like to witness the awe-inspiring journey of migratory birds? Join us as we welcome Natalie Savoie from the Canadian Wildlife Service, who opens a window into the world of bird migration. From the majestic great grey owl to the impressive sandhill cranes, Natalie captivates us with her knowledge and passion. Listen to the enchanting calls of these incredible creatures and share in personal wildlife encounters that highlight the wonders of nature. This episode promises to transport you directly into the heart of the wilderness, offering a fresh perspective on the natural world around us.
We take a deep dive into the critical topic of migratory bird conservation and regulation. Learn about the collaborative efforts across North America that ensure sustainable bird populations, and hear about success stories like the revival of the wood duck population. Natalie shares the ongoing challenges of managing overabundant species like snow geese and discusses vital initiatives such as the North American Waterfowl Management Plan. Explore the importance of informed conservation actions and the collaborative work with stakeholders to adapt hunting regulations, keeping bird populations healthy and thriving.
As we continue, we delve into the fascinating world of bird banding and its role in wildlife research. Celebrate the 100th anniversary of Canada's bird banding program and uncover how modern technologies, like telemetric trackers, are revolutionizing our understanding of migration patterns. We also touch on the ethical considerations in wildlife research, ensuring the well-being of our feathered friends.
Hi everybody. I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's Favorite Fishing Show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, angelo will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know, there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 3:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show.
Speaker 2:We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes, all the other guys would go golfing Me and Garth and Turk and all the Russians would go fishing.
Speaker 4:To scientists. But now that we're reforesting- and laying things free.
Speaker 5:It's the perfect transmission environment for life.
Speaker 3:To chefs If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 1:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are. Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. Find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 6:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world.
Speaker 6:On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people. That will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy, we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Okay, as always, we want to thank all those listeners all across the world In Switzerland, where we're ranking high, and Ghana we're always ranking high. It's amazing in Ghana that we still have such a high ranking in Trinidad and Tobago and, of course, all across Canada and the States.
Speaker 6:And I have to tell you, this morning I was out running the chocolate lab Gunner is his name and we saw something a little bit unusual that was kind of surprising. We saw a great grey owl and it was great to see. I haven't seen the great grey around for a while. I got some pretty poor pictures of it because it was so high up in the trees that my cell phone actually didn't do a great job of getting something close. But it was great to see a nice great grey owl locally on our walk and I know all those listeners who are birders would probably appreciate it very much. But we have a special guest on from the Canadian Wildlife Service, natalie. Natalie, thanks for joining us on today's podcast.
Speaker 6:Thank you for having me Absolutely a pleasure. So tell us a bit about yourself, where you're from, and a bit about yourself, Natalie.
Speaker 7:Yeah, so I'm Natalie Savoie. I was born in Halifax but grew up in the Ottawa area. So I have been in the Ottawa and still in the Ottawa area to this day, so been kind of in the same area, was fortunate enough to find a position in the area that I was able to do some of my passion. I'm a very avid animal lover, so grew up loving animals, which turned into, you know, finding a career in something that I could do to help with wildlife specifically. Very good, so yeah, Very good.
Speaker 6:So did you hear my comments about the great gray this morning?
Speaker 7:Yeah, that's awesome, that's great. It's that time of year where we might see some different species, with some of the migration happening, so there's always a fun time to be able to see different species than we're normally used to seeing in our areas.
Speaker 6:So are you familiar with great grays at all? So you mentioned about their migrating. They're you familiar with great greys at all? So you mentioned about they're migrating. Are they? They're migrating a certain way, are they?
Speaker 7:So not not necessarily all. I'm not as familiar with the, the great greys, but, like, like, just this weekend we saw about 50 Sandhill cranes migrating overhead at our place. So so you've got a few different kind of migrations that are that are happening at the. So, um, just uh, not something we typically see uh in in our area, especially in those numbers, but uh, um, right, yeah, it's, it's, you're seeing a bunch of different species.
Speaker 6:You may not always see uh if during the winter time versus in the summertime and I love watching or listening to sandhill cranes because you can hear them first coming. It's like that prehistoric sound that they make, that kind of very strange sound is like what is that? And lo and behold, the sandhills. Now sandhills. We talk a bit about sandhills. I know that up around Hearst, or sorry, capuscasing, up around Hearst, or sorry, kapiskasing.
Speaker 6:I was up at Kapiskasing and I happened to be out and there was probably a thousand or more sandhill cranes and they were waving in a wheat field and what they would do would be the back group would fly in front of the front group and they basically I would say they ate that whole 10 acre field. Well, the time I was there for an hour and a half or two hours and that poor farmer must be going crazy because they were all Sandhills land and standing grain where Canada geese do not, and they consume that whole thing and there had to be well over a thousand and it was amazing to see. But it was certainly a memory that stands out in my mind for me to remember it. But it was up Capus. Gazingway Saw quite a few there, which was kind of surprising. So, natalie, tell us a bit about your position with the Canadian Wildlife Service.
Speaker 7:Yeah, so currently my position and I've had a few different positions in the past so my current position I'm a manager for the Migratory Birds and Wildlife Health section, specifically with their Wildlife Management Directorate. So I manage a group of four different units. So one of them is a Migratory Bird Management Unit, a Migratory Bird Conservation Unit, a Wildlife Health unit and then a polar bear management unit, just to add some interesting things to the mix. But my position in those groups there's varying things that they'll address.
Speaker 7:On the migratory bird management side there's a lot of the harvest work that ends up happening out of that group, as well as some of the regulatory work. So there is an act and a regulation that exists in Canada for migratory birds, so the Migratory Birds Convention Act, which from there there's the migratory bird regulations. So there's a lot of work that goes into that. And then our conservation unit works um kind of at the national level uh coordination of of conservation um at the the national level for migratory birds, as well as internationally. So they work with a lot of partners internationally, um given that that uh migratory birds in canada uh about uh 50 of them or uh 78 of them spend less than 50% of their time within Canada, so they don't necessarily know borders and can fly quite great distances. So there's a lot of work that ends up happening there as well.
Speaker 6:So you mentioned the Migratory Bird Act. Now, that was signed, I believe, with the states and Mexico, was it not?
Speaker 7:Canada and US. So the US their Migratory Birds Treaty have signed it with Mexico, but the Migratory Bird Convention Act specifically is between Canada and the US.
Speaker 6:And that's quite old, is it not? I thought there was some act that kind of regulated a lot of the flight patterns back over 100 years or something along that line.
Speaker 7:Yeah, yeah, you're right. So we celebrated the centennial in 2017 for the act, so it's one of the oldest conservation acts in the world. So the history behind the act is quite interesting. So there was a quite worry, a big worry, when it came to there was three big extinctions that ended up happening. That created some kind of momentum to have these conversations that there needed to be some international coordination when it came to conservation of migratory birds, both due from over-harvesting, as well as a vogue for feathers so feathers and hats was very big, so there was some indiscriminate killing of birds at the time for feathers and hats. So there was quite a bit of interest in finding a path forward. So that was some conversation. So at the time, it was Great Britain, for Canada, that signed the, the, the act, or the treaty, the convention, and then the act came out of it the following year.
Speaker 6:Okay, so you mentioned three extinctions. Do you remember what those three extinctions were, that that initiated the act to move forward?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so there was the Labrador duck, the great auk, and then the passenger pigeon was the last one, and there were stories that existed about the passenger pigeon that there were so many of them that they would darken the skies as they flew by during their migrations. And then that became extinct just shortly before the aqua sign. If I remember my dates correctly, 1914, I think.
Speaker 6:So and it's interesting, you mentioned the passenger pigeon because I know Dean, our producer here on the podcast. He mentioned to me briefly and I never thought much about it, but the infestation or the large growth in ticks seem to coincide with the elimination of the passenger pigeon because ticks would be one of their number one foods and I've never had a discussion with anybody that ever knew or had any background on that. I don't know if you've ever heard anything along that line.
Speaker 7:No, I hadn't, and I don't know the life history as well of the passenger pigeon. But if they were aerial insectivores then that wouldn't surprise me. So our aerial insectivores can actually consume quite surprising amounts of insects, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was the case.
Speaker 6:Yeah, very good. Now a lot of the commercial, because there was actually commercial hunting for a lot of the migratory birds where they used punt guns and things like that at one point. That is long gone. So people realize that your agency and all these treaties and agreements are to protect all these sorts of animals, to make sure, because, like we say, they spend 50% of the time here and 50% of the time elsewhere.
Speaker 7:Yeah, so there's been quite a bit of work with coordination as well with the US on having so our regulations are specifically for Canada, but there's quite a bit of work that goes into what we call our biannual hunting amendments. So that's what kind of sets the regulations or sets the different bag limits or season limits, species all of that within the regulations.
Speaker 6:Right and certain things like a lot of the outdoor, the consumptive users, a lot of that hunting community kind of take credit for a lot of the return of the wood duck, which was very was threatened or was endangered at one point. But now they did wood buck, wood duck box nesting boxes and really built up a habitat for wood ducks and they seem to take a lot of credit for that. And are you familiar with a lot of those activities?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so part of the license that you pay for migratory rain bird hunting actually half of the money actually goes towards conservation projects. So it's a wildlife habitat conservation stamp and those funds go towards investments to help with conservation actions that can help maintain those populations sustainable so that they can keep being harvested. Waterfowl is one of our greatest success stories when it comes to conservation. So our recent publication, jointly with Birds Canada for the State of Canada's Birds Report actually showed some very high increases in our waterfowl populations and it really is a success story on when we have informed and directed conservation actions we can make a difference for some of these populations.
Speaker 6:Yeah, and a lot of the populations. I know because I've always I was Minister of Natural Resources and prior to that I always wanted to be ministered since the 70s and I saw a lot of things that are taking place and one of the things was a lot of the farmland or potholes in Western Canada that used to be nesting grounds were getting filled in and was having large impacts on migratory birds. You're the agency that would know a lot more about that, rather than some of the things that I just hear or read about in the outdoor magazines. But was that one of the big concerns? Or is this some of the projects that you mentioned from the migratory bird stamp that rehabilitate a lot of those nesting sites?
Speaker 7:So we actually have a plan for the North American waterfowl management plan that addresses a lot of those concerns.
Speaker 7:So it's a plan that started in the 70s when there was actually from the 60s declines that we were seeing in some of these waterfowl species. There was a banding together of we need a plan to kind of move forward and be able to address some of these declines. It's a plan that's re-evaluated every five years, so it's not it doesn't date back from the 70s, although it's been around for a while, but does kind of address that, and there's quite a bit of funds associated to that to have some investments in some of those conservation actions. Looking specifically at the prairie potholes, like you said, it's the breeding ground for a lot of our waterfowl and so, looking at what actions can we take, depending on where we are in, so it would have been different than it was in the 1970s, but really looking at what actions we can take and being a lot more directed, the plan is jointly with the US, so there is some actions that are done in the US as well, so it is a very collaborative international approach.
Speaker 6:Interesting. Yeah, I know that some of the populations, actually the snow geese population, has more or less exploded, and is that partially because of a lot of the climate changes that have occurred, or do we have any links as to why that huge population in snow geese?
Speaker 7:Yeah, that's a great question. I'd have to dig it and I'm sure we've got folks in CWS that have a lot more and sorry, canadian Wildlife Service, we usually abbreviate it to CWS that have a lot more of that kind of life history knowledge. Like we're seeing impacts from those that we call them overabundant population, especially on our shorebirds. So they tend to graze quite a bit of the Arctic, which is a big breeding ground for many shorebirds within Canada. So there's a few different factors that are probably associated to that. The term overabundant is a regulatory term that we use as well, so in the biannual amendments you'll see that used as a term and there's actually different bag limits associated to those species.
Speaker 6:Okay, so the CWS Canadian Wildlife Service actually determines migratory harvesting limits service actually determines migratory harvesting limits as the populations go up and down.
Speaker 7:they kind of monitor that sort of thing to make sure there's sustainable harvests out there in the country yeah, so so we have, uh, what we call our biannual hunting amendments, um, and those are really to make sure that we're aligning our hunting regulations with the dynamic status that happens with migratory brood populations, because there's a lot of fluctuations that happen that are both natural or can be anthropogenic.
Speaker 7:We have a regulatory series of reports that we publish, so it's informed by. We have one of those reports that's the status of populations. So the hunting amendments are informed by those status of populations, which is assessments done from Canadian Wildlife Service experts and input from non-government organizations as well as other interested individuals on issues related to hunting regulations. And a lot of that is gathered through consultation that's done through our regional officials and then with provinces and territory territorial wildlife officials. So so essentially the the hunting amendments, which get informed by those status population, those status populations then inform those hunting amendments if it's bag limits or species seasons and all that, and then the modifications are made. So that's every two years, and we do actually have a website that has kind of the guiding principles of what we look for when we're doing those hunting amendments.
Speaker 6:I see, and essentially the hunting amendments attempt to maintain a stable population so that you don't get peaks and lows and that sort of area. I believe Because with an overabundance of the snow geese that we mentioned, I believe the harvest limits were increased in order to compensate for that, Because otherwise when you get, I think it's what botulism that kills off a lot of ducks or some other things along those, or migratory birds, that they have huge die-offs. That's what we're trying to avoid to maintain stable and healthy populations.
Speaker 7:So basically to have like a sustainable population that can be harvested for future generations. Often some of these species have big fluctuations through in, you know, year to year, but then if you look at it on a long-term scale, maybe stable or increasing or decreasing. So really we do take some long-term data sets to take a look at how the population is doing and what the status of the population looks like, to then be able to inform that. So you know, if you take a year that's a high year towards a year that's a low year, you may be getting a different trend than if you were looking on a long term.
Speaker 6:Right. So, and so are you finding cycles that it's like. Well, you know, the snow shoe hare runs on a 12, 15 year cycle, and the same sort of thing with migratory birds.
Speaker 7:Are you seeing cycles and what kind of time frame or length would the cycle run from peak to low? Yeah, so there are some kind of cycles that we see, often linked to actually different years when it comes to wetness in the prairie potholes. So some of the success, the breeding success, can be linked to the prairie potholes, and if there's a lot of rain or if there's the right amount of rain, they vary on species, so some of them can be, you know, annual cycles, or they can be on five years. Often in our population status we'll be looking at the trend from the 1970s, because that's when we kind of started having a lot of that data that we were able to go back to. So we've got quite a big data set and a long data set. But we also look at the 10-year or five-year trends just to see kind of what's happening there. But then we can get an overall picture.
Speaker 6:Right. So, and being that you mentioned the Sandhill Cranes, I know other jurisdictions, other provinces and territories have a harvest limit on Sandhill Cranes where other provinces do not, and so you would establish populations canada-wide to determine that. Or is it by jurisdiction?
Speaker 7:so it'll depend. Sometimes there's some subpopulations, so genetically there may be some subpopulations that may determine some of the, some of the bag limits, um, or even if the the species is huntable in a certain area or not, um. So so although they may be the same species, there might be different populations that are doing better or worse than other ones. So there's there's a lot of discussion that ends up happening with our experts on how do we, how do we make sure we're maintaining these and not necessarily losing some of that genetic diversity?
Speaker 6:yeah, and so some of those limits. Yeah, like I mentioned about the sandhills, when I'm up in Kappus Gasing and see thousands, the farmers up there certainly have concerns about the impact that they're having. Side of Toronto you don't really see or hear a lot of sandhills, but now that you're starting to hear some in some places, like where you are in Ottawa area, it certainly indicates that their population is changing quite a bit.
Speaker 7:Yeah, we've been seeing some like a slight increase in them so that they're kind of rolled into within our game bird population. So, like I said, we've got quite like the tendency for the waterfowl and game birds is on the increase, in large part because of the efforts that are happening for that sustainability of the harvest. There's a big interest and you know a lot of harvesters were some of the first conservationists out there. There's that. How do we maintain this on the long term?
Speaker 6:Exactly so. Cws actually determines limits. Now, what kind of what would be the species of birds? So you've got ducks and you've got geese and you've got cranes and you've got. What other sort of migratory birds would fall into that?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so mainly ducks, geese, cranes, dabbling ducks. We do kind of sometimes separate them. Woodcock is also another species that's harvested, and then in some areas also morning dove, and those are kind of the big categories that you'll find. So it's not all migratory birds that are necessarily harvested. So there is like a full closure on harvesting some of the land bird or shore birds.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned woodcock because actually I did a. I flushed a woodcock two days ago and I have not seen a lot of woodcocks when flights go through and when they're migrating and it was one of the first ones I had seen in quite a few years. Actually, how is the woodcock population? Is it stable, Is it growing and what are the indications there? I know groups like Rough Grouse Society was building a lot of woodcock environments or habitat to try and promote woodcock. So any updates on what's happening with woodcock as a bird?
Speaker 7:yeah, I can actually like if I can actually pull up the the population report so that the most recent one we published was in in 2023, um, and I uh, can't remember off the top of my head how how they're they're doing, but I can take a look at it now. But each species is actually in that report with information about how the game bird population is doing.
Speaker 6:So this population reports? Is it accessible to the public and if so, how or where do they go about to find that sort of stuff?
Speaker 7:It is. So it's on our Canadaca website. We actually have a section that's specifically on migratory birds and then if you, even if you just kind of take a look and search for a population status report for migratory birds, it'll pop up there and it's got a lot of information. There's also, like I said. So our biannual hunting amendments is a we have three reports that come out of that regulatory series. So the first one is that population status of migratory birds. The second one is the proposal for the hunting amendments and then the final one is like what those hunting amendments end up being, and that's just before the hunting season started. So the 2023 report was so that we could establish a 2024-2025 hunting season.
Speaker 6:Right, and those seasons vary by jurisdiction as well. I know ontario, I believe, the northern district, starts in september, september the 10th I believe, and then, as you proceed south, they they open later in the year. But other jurisdictions, other provinces, and they actually open. I believe some may even open in, open in August for harvesting migratory birds.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 7:So it all kind of depends where in Canada you're taking a look and those hunting amendments actually have a lot of that information available in there. Well, all of the information I should say available in there, well, all of the information I should say available in there, and a lot of it depends on, you know, are we we're looking at seeing like, is this outside of the breeding season? Because obviously we don't want to impact the breeding season? And then how can we, if there are different subpopulations that are flying through, are we able to avoid, you know, some crossover where identification of the same species but different subpopulations may be really hard at that time? So there's a lot of considerations that kind of go in those dates and, like you said, it depends.
Speaker 7:Even you know, in the same province it might be different depending on where. It is Pretty common to have kind of these management. So in provinces often they call them management units, but these different areas that will have different dates. We try to make it as simple as possible but obviously there's a lot of information in there.
Speaker 6:Well, actually I saw I believe it was one southern state jurisdiction that actually had an early teal season, because apparently and I've never verified this, but I'm just talking about it now because it just came forward was they actually had a teal season, because teal actually migrate. Particularly male teals migrate so early in the season that there's basically none around when the regular other seasons open up. Are you finding something? Things like that as well?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so those are some of the considerations we might be thinking about. So there might be, like we might know of a subpopulation that migrates earlier than another subpopulation and we're worried about one subpopulation specifically. So we might say, okay, we'll move the date to like where you know there might not be as much of that mixing happening, so that it's a little bit more obvious which subpopulation the the takes are coming from and I can just see some of the success.
Speaker 6:I know. I remember as a kid growing up. It was wow, I saw a canada goose today and and now it's like those damn canada geese are everywhere. They're in the park, they're on the golf course, they're on the golf course, they're everywhere. The population has just exploded as they basically urbanize themselves and now find in areas. I mean you go to the shopping mall now and there's nests in the parking lot and they're chasing cars away. Well, they're nesting there, which kind of.
Speaker 6:So it's just some of the successes that take place and how to manage it. And you're the agency that does the best they can and work with what they have to try and deal with these overabundances to make sure they don't I guess they don't dominate over other species as well, Because one species I would imagine would take complete dominance, like the snow goose. Controlling the breeding grounds in the north simply by population eliminates some of the others and your actions kind of take care or try to manage those to make sure that we've got a abundance of all various species yeah, exactly, and and, like I mentioned earlier, so, so, so, the the a lot of our shorebirds.
Speaker 5:Back in 2016,. Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.
Speaker 4:Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.
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Speaker 6:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, we're here in Lindsay, ontario, with Rusty, who's up from California and visits us every year, and Rusty has been a faithful Chaga user for a long time. Rusty, maybe you can just tell us about your experience with Chaga.
Speaker 2:Well, I feel that it's had a significant impact on my health and well-being. I believe in what I'm doing. I think that Jerry is very knowledgeable on it. If he says something, I take that very seriously.
Speaker 2:He has spent most of his life in the health care field and certainly knows what he's talking about, and I like to be around people like that because that's what keeps me healthy. And I'm 80 now and I'm going to try to enjoy what I, what I've created with the motorcycle, and one thing another which will require that I live for at least another 10 years to get back what I've invested in my health and wellness.
Speaker 6:So so you're seeing, you're seeing a big benefit from it, an overall healthy environment, and when you go back to California next month, you actually take it quite a bit with you back to California, don't you?
Speaker 2:Oh yes, we're going to be there for eight months and we don't want to run out, so we take it back and we take it every day and you know, like I say, it's not a problem for me.
Speaker 6:Right, so how do you take it, rusty?
Speaker 2:I put a tablespoon or a teaspoon rather in my coffee each morning. Okay, when I brew the coffee, yeah, and I put it in as the coffee's brewing. I put that in with it.
Speaker 6:Oh, very good.
Speaker 2:And I put a little bit of cinnamon in with it too, right. And then I sweeten my coffee because, take the bitterness, a little bit of bitterness. I use a chaga and maple mix. Very good that you make up for those that want to be well and stay well.
Speaker 6:Well, thanks very much. We appreciate you taking the time and sharing your Chaga experience with you, and we'll make sure you have a safe trip back to California.
Speaker 2:Sure enough, all right. Thank you Jerry, thanks Rusty, thanks sir, my pleasure.
Speaker 6:We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening.
Speaker 6:Back to the episode. One of the questions I have, natalie, then, would be I know there was a now retired biologist used to work for Natural Resources out of the Kenora District, bruce Anyways. He was telling me his belief was that CWD chronic wasting disease was actually being spread by birds, mostly birds of prey, that feed on carrion, that have chronic wasting disease and relocate it. Are you familiar with any of that kind of theory or have you heard any of those sort of things, or is that the sort of thing that you look into as the CWS?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so that's a great question. So I hadn't heard that theory and actually so one of the other units that's within our section actually works on wildlife health issues, so including chronic wasting disease and leaky bean influenza as an example, that's not something I had heard, although the concern with chronic wasting disease right now has been some of the spread that we've seen in the deer that you know it's starting to kind of cross over into some of those spread that we've seen in the deer that you know it's starting to kind of cross over into some of those caribou ranges, so some of our more sensitive species. Obviously we want to make sure we maintain some healthy populations there.
Speaker 6:Right, yeah, and so there's. I mentioned botulism because I recall that one lake, because I recall that one lake I believe it was in Manitoba had, I think it was there was over 2,000 ducks that died of botulism, that had been contacted through one lake that they were in. Is that something that we're seeing or is there sort of things like that that we need to be cautious or cognitive of?
Speaker 7:be cautious or cognitive of so so, uh, since 2022, no 2020, um, I would say, avian influenza has been kind of one of our hottest files, um, uh, in large part cause we've seen some, some pretty big die-offs, um, in previous years, uh, of our seabird colonies, um, so so sometimes we've had have some of those botulisms or or or other diseases that that we'll see kind of more localized but widespread. I'd say that that in more recent years it has been that that avian influenza we had like a small outbreak back in 2016, if I remember my dates correctly, but it was nothing compared to the one that we had in 2020. And we're still seeing some of those die off. So we actually refocused quite a bit of effort on surveillance of avian influenza, as well as kind of some of the communication that goes out around avian influenza.
Speaker 6:Hmm, interesting. Now, nell, I'm not sure if you're familiar. When I was minister, I know one of the things that I would try to look at was the municipalities come forward now and try to emulate natural rain environments by establishing stormwater retention ponds. They're called. Grains would fall in fields and then migrate through underwater water courses to central bodies and that, and when you bring in driveways and roofs and all that, it kind of loses all that. So they build all these stormwater retention ponds that take care of a lot of overflow and things like that. But I'm seeing a lot of migratory birds, ducks and geese utilizing those. Are they having an impact or is the? Is there fecal contamination that would nullify anything else growing or living inside those ponds? Are you familiar with any of those possibilities that I just brought up?
Speaker 7:so not not so much with those possibilities. One, one of the kind of concerns is and obviously it's it's kind of, when you've got a lot of birds aggregating in one area, there's always that kind of possibility of disease transferring. Is this a location where some of that avian fluenza is being transmitted between some of the bird species? And then, obviously, you know, with a migratory species, a disease travels much further than it would without a migratory species. So there's been a lot of conversations about, you know, are we finding some of that? Um, we can test for avian influenza in water as well. Um, so so there's there's been a lot of questions kind of kind of around that and and and taking a look. Um, I think you know, if, if things end up, if there's big changes, you know, in the ecosystem, there's always probably an impact. I think we can always kind of think about it that way. We haven't heard anything specific though, on, you know, the waste contaminating the water.
Speaker 6:I just wondered as these conversations come up, it kind of expands some of the things that I think about obviously, but kind of expand some of the things that I think about obviously. So, CWS, do they do migratory bird banding in order to see flight patterns and things?
Speaker 7:along that line. Yeah, so the migratory bird banding, that's a great question. So we actually hit in 2023, we hit our 100th anniversary of Canada's bird banding program. So it's been a very long history and there's actually quite an expertise internationally that Canada's recognized in that field. So we have a bird banding program that's specifically Canadian and a large part of that sits in the Canadian Wildlife Service.
Speaker 7:A lot of the work is done in partnership with the US Geological Service and it's one of our oldest and longest maintained biological databases in North America. So the banding helps kind of establish some of the migratory routes. So when there's captures I mean this is also I always find this fascinating because there's a lot of players involved. So obviously the public reporting bands ends up helping the banding office, because then we do get some of those locations. We get some information from there of those locations. We get some information from there and the Canadian Banning Office issues scientific permits to capture and ban migratory birds in Canada. So that's under the authority of the Migratory Bird Convention Act that we had talked about earlier. And we've got banders from the US as well as other countries that may wish to come to Canada to band birds here, and we actually have. We also have a website that talks about the banding program and what's required of a permit. There's quite a bit of review that undergoes a permit.
Speaker 7:So the experience and the project's merit is reviewed um to to see, you know, is, is this worthwhile? Because obviously, as soon as you handle a bird, a bird, it can be stressed. But then, is it? Is it um, uh, worthwhile for, for that, that education, or that that um knowledge purpose and um, since the program has started, we we've had more than 16 million birds that have been banned in Canada, with 800,000 encounters that are reported within Canada. And then today you know that we distribute every year about 400,000 bird bands, which covers about 1,100 bird banders across the country. So it's a pretty big program, right Supported by some other new cutting-edge technologies, but it is one of the, like I said, longest-standing programs there. So 100 years is not a little bit, so it's exciting to have kind of such a long-term data set.
Speaker 6:Just so people understand that. A bird band basically goes around with the ankle, the foot of a bird, and it's a small what aluminum, I'm not even sure. I think there's still aluminum, I don't really know. It goes around the foot of the bird and then it lists the details about the bird. Is that?
Speaker 7:maybe you can just elaborate on that a bit yeah, so so there's and there's different sizes depending on different birds. So we will bird, you know, a small, or we will band as small as a hummingbird, uh, and as big as a geese. So there's different, obviously different sizes of bands because you can't put the same band on there. Um, typically the band has a number on it, um, and we have a, a phone number that you can report the bands at. When the band is is placed on the bird, um, often there's a lot of information that's taken from, from the bird. So, uh, wait, we we check and see, uh, we can see with the fat deposits. If it's, you know, is it during migration? Is it? And then, depending on the time of year also, that we've captured this individual, do we think it's migrating? Do we think it's in its breeding grounds?
Speaker 7:If, with the feathers, we can sometimes identify if it's a fledgling, a first year after hatch or older, and then if the bird is recaptured, then you know we'll have that kind of what was the date, the location and where it was captured, and then that extra information which, if you report the ban, often that information will be shared with the person reporting the ban.
Speaker 7:Often that information will be shared with the person reporting the ban and then you know if there's a delay, like whatever the amount of years are. We've had birds that have been captured in the Caribbean that were banded in Canada or vice versa. So sometimes it's fascinating to see and some birds captured multiple times, you know if it's a mark recapture program that's going on. So if we have mist nets up, then you know we can. It's always exciting to get a band because then it's like, okay, what information do we have? Where has this bird been? So it's pretty fascinating to see kind of some of these birds, where they go, how long they live. So we were able to get quite a bit of information from that.
Speaker 6:Now you mentioned CWS and the US services being banding agents, but are there other groups you mentioned about getting a permit to band? Are there other groups that actually do banding out there?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so the banders aren't necessarily all Canadian Wildlife Service. We do have some people from the Canadian Wildlife Service that will go band sometimes on their own time the Canadian Wildlife Service gives out the permits to multiple banders.
Speaker 7:So, like I said, it's about 1,100 banders that might be in academia, from non-profit organizations or from research programs that may be interested in capturing and putting bands on birds. So it varies on who it is. The scientific permit for banding specifically has some of those things, so there needs to be experience. Obviously, you can't be inexperienced if you're handling a bird for the first time.
Speaker 6:There's certain ways to handle a bird to make sure you reduce stress and and and not injure the bird, um, but uh, yeah, there's quite a quite a slew of different people that that end up banding yeah, I believe the ministry of ontario ministry of natural resources, was banding as well, from what I recall in the past, and so they would uh do um, it was a that was an airboat, I think they were using in order to ban, and they would take biologists out into areas in order to do exactly what this is to gain more information about the migratory birds that are out there.
Speaker 7:Yeah, and now paired with some of the recent technological advances that we have, you know, we can put telemetric trackers on birds.
Speaker 7:We also have a network called MODIS where you can put tags that ping towers, so they're kind of like cell phone towers, so then you can actually see some of the movements almost in real time.
Speaker 7:But all of that kind of paired with the banding is helping kind of get a better understanding of where these birds are going where during migration, if they're stopping in different areas. So we know some species. We were very aware, because it can be very obvious, where some of these species have stopover sites, some of them not as much. So like shorebirds often aggregate in very big groups, so like Bay of Fundy is a really good example, in the fall you'll probably see thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of shorebirds kind of coming in while they're doing their migration south. But some of these species we don't have as much information so so so we've been able to kind of get more information uh, using the bird bands as well as as in in pair with these new technologies. Um, because some of those new technologies we actually can't use on some of the smaller birds we do have some some uh guidelines on weight restrictions uh, so that we're not impacting the bird's survivability.
Speaker 6:Right, yeah, very interesting. Now, natalie, you touched on one thing that I very much appreciated and did quite a bit of work, or tried to do what I could to expand, and that was polar bear research in the province of Ontario, and you mentioned some of that. I'm not sure if you're familiar with dr marty obarts and his research, or is it separate research that cws does?
Speaker 7:so so I'm not as familiar, mainly because I've just kind of started started with that file. We've got lots of.
Speaker 7:We have some research scientists that that that are that specifically work on that, that have have a lot, a lot more, uh, a lot more experience. So I'm sure that the, the, they, um, they do some of their. So we have some research scientists in our science and technology branch that does research there, uh, on polar bear as well as migratory birds. So we actually have some, some amazing research scientists there, um, and then we do, we kind of use that information so, as well, as well as the, as the migratory bird information, a lot of it is science-based advice that we end up giving.
Speaker 6:Yeah, because most people don't realize that Ontario has a polar bear population and a caribou population and a seal population and a walrus population and beluga whales and all sorts of things that people have no real idea. And I know that Marty Obarts was doing up in Polar Bear Provincial Park, which is Ontario's largest park. Most people don't know that as well. It was doing quite a bit of research up there and I was able to link groups up to expand the funding without, quite frankly, without causing the taxpayer any funds. It was external groups that wanted to contribute and participate and it seemed to. Marty came to me afterwards he thought I was so opposed to this when you started that, but he said it worked out fantastic because they got more funding for research, which is always good, and polar bears is very front and center in a lot of people's minds as well which is good.
Speaker 7:It's a very iconic species, yeah.
Speaker 6:Exactly so, natalie. How do people find out more details? How do they get in touch with you or how can they find out more information about the Canadian Wildlife Service and all the great things that you're doing out there that we've just exposed to a lot of people that didn't realize that these sort of things happen?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so we have a lot of information on our website. So the Canadaca. We have an area specifically on wildlife plants. There's a lot of information there. There's specifically a section on migratory birds, like I mentioned earlier. That has a lot of information on, you know, the hunting regulations but as well as some of the conservation efforts that are underway. There's contact information there. So there's some regional offices that can be contacted there as well. As we're always happy to have emails come in. We have kind of a generic email as well. If there's any questions that people aren't sure where to direct, to our EnviroInfo is what we call it that questions so often they go there and then they get distributed. The folks at the EnviroInfo know who to send those questions to, so they'll get sent out to the experts. So we're always happy to kind of answer questions that are out there and have conversations if needed.
Speaker 6:Well, you certainly answered a lot of questions for me, natalie. It was very much appreciated for you taking the time and it was very knowledgeable about some of the things that are happening that everybody just takes for granted and doesn't realize. There's a lot of research in these when decisions gets made on a lot of management or practices that take place with migratory birds and other species as well, and we appreciate you taking the time for being here and it's just another thing that are people learning of what's happening out there under the canopy. Thanks, natalie.
Speaker 7:Thank you.
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