Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 70: Conservation Initiatives with Robert Pye from Watersheds Canada
Get ready to explore the wonders of nature and conservation with outdoor enthusiast and special guest Robert Pye from Watersheds Canada. As we reconnect over our shared love for the outdoors, we reflect on moments like spotting a great gray owl and observing intriguing wildlife patterns. Robert shares his valuable insights from years of experience with organizations like the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, providing a unique perspective on environmental stewardship and sustainable land management.
Together, we uncover the remarkable efforts driving conservation initiatives, highlighting Watersheds Canada's commitment to preserving ecosystems through community-driven approaches. Discover the importance of riparian zones and innovative programs like the Natural Edge, designed to help property owners maintain naturalized shorelines. Our conversation takes you through the hands-on work of fish habitat restoration and the challenges posed by environmental factors like blue-green algae blooms, emphasizing the critical role of volunteer stewardship and grassroots initiatives in protecting our natural heritage.
Join us as we discuss the vitality of charitable funding and the inspiring dedication of volunteers in conservation projects. From restoring walleye spawning creeks to navigating the complexities of environmental legislation, Robert and I highlight the power of collaboration in overcoming challenges. Whether it's through strategic partnerships, educational programs, or the collective passion for the outdoors, this episode captures the essence of community action and commitment required to safeguard our environment for the future.
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Speaker 3:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people. That will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Under the Canopy. Okay, as always, we always want to thank our guests around the world, and we want to thank those in Switzerland and in Ghana. Of course, we still rank unbelievably high in Ghana I don't know why, but we are, and we're thankful for it and the same in Trinidad and Tobago and the States and, of course, all across Canada. And anybody, as always, has any questions or any information they'd like more podcasts about. We can certainly try to get it on, but it takes sometimes a bit of research to do these things.
Speaker 3:But today it was kind of an interesting morning. It's getting a little it's early November here mid-November I guess now and a little chilly out, so it was good to see that. I saw the great gray owl, as we mentioned before, along with a number of migrating birds going through the area, which is kind of nice to see, and Ted, my chocolate lab, out, as we always do, and he goes for his run. But it's interesting to see we're seeing more fox in our area now, which we used to have all kind of coyote problems, but when you get fox around you lose. You don't have coyotes. So we're getting a fox around, which is an indicator to me that the coyotes have moved on to other areas, because coyotes will clean out fox pretty quick. But today we have a special guest from Watersheds, canada, mr Robert Pye. Welcome to the program, robert. Thanks for coming.
Speaker 4:Oh Jerry, this is a great treat to be reconnected with you after all these years, and congratulations on your podcast.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you very much and it is great to reconnect. I can remember a long time ago at all the shows at the International Centre where we used to meet on a regular basis and the things we used to have in common.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you couldn't be at an outdoors event without Jerry Ouellette walking through. Well, thanks very much. I appreciate you saying that. We certainly try to do our share because it's always been.
Speaker 3:I got to tell you, ever since I was in the early 70s I used to read the outdoor regulations and at that time it was maps, kind of like a map form when it would fold out and all that kind of stuff and read the minister's notes and stuff like that, and I always, as a kid I said that's what I want to do, is I someday be the minister of natural resources? And we've worked towards it and we had the teams and the support to make it happen. But, and people like yourself and organizations like the one you worked with, we certainly try to do our best to work with them and with the outdoor community in the best interest of all our passions for the outdoor and thanks for all you've done. Thank you, yeah, so tell us a bit so our audience knows a bit about Robert Pye. Tell us about yourself, your background and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4:Well, it's funny. You talk about being a kid and going through regulations. I did the same thing when being a kid and going through regulations. I did the same thing when I was a kid.
Speaker 4:I really wanted to be a game warden, a conservation officer, and that was inspired by a grade five or grade six trip to the former Leslie M Frost Center in Dorset and what a facility that was and that really I knew from a very early start that I wanted to have a career in fish and wildlife, and I grew up fishing and hunting and still do that today, with a family of my own and I spent my childhood on the banks of a trout stream with my dad, and that's how I learned my passion, for not only my passion, but I really understood the value of freshwater protection and why it's so important for species like brook trout, of freshwater protection and why it's so important for species like brook trout. So, anyways, I've been 27 years working in the conservation field and in 2022, after 25 years with the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, I became the executive director of an amazing group called Watersheds Canada, and I'm happy to be here today to tell you about it.
Speaker 3:Oh, very good. Well, that's great, and I know we have some other stuff in common as well. I have to tell you, just to go on to that story a little bit, I went back to Durham College much later in life and one of the questions came up when I was at Durham College was what are you going to do when you graduate? And I said I was going to run politically. And they laughed and they laughed and they laughed. They thought, oh yeah, here's a guy who knows what he's doing. Yeah, sure, Okay. Anyways, we had to. Basically, it was a five-year plan to make it work. But also, Robert, you're a graduate of Durham College as well right yeah.
Speaker 4:And they laughed at me at Durham College as well, when I did a field placement and I was driving all the way out to Peterborough from Durham College and my field placement was with the Federation. Well, I guess that worked out pretty well because I was there for 25 years.
Speaker 3:25 years, that's great. So where are you from and where were you originally from and where are you from?
Speaker 4:now Robert. Yeah, I grew up in Orillia, so in the village of Atherley that combines Lake Simcoe and Cuchin together the Athlean Arrows and now I live east of Peterborough in a community called Norwood, and I am here with my wife and two boys and four English setters and we have 138 acres we call it pie acres and we bought this land in 2006. And it's a stewardship passion and we basically deer hunt and run the dogs and run maple syrup and this is a great lifestyle out here.
Speaker 3:So how many acres you got there, robert, 138. And how?
Speaker 4:much of it is bush. It's probably 60-40. 60% is a combination of softwoods and a beautiful sugar bush and then 40% are drumlins, rolling hills, historic stone fences throughout the property, a couple pond areas throughout the property, a couple of pond areas. It's 140 acres that you couldn't for myself, for my own outdoor passion, I couldn't put onto paper a better recipe for all the ingredients on this property.
Speaker 3:So for the wooded part, are you getting the managed land forest tax rebate?
Speaker 4:Yes, I am Thanks for bringing that up.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it's interesting that you do bring that up, because I think that that that program is a major success story. It, it, uh, it. It empowers um the stewardship spirit of property owners like myself, and I think that the province needs to expand that, quite frankly, and get um waterfront property owners uh involved in that, frankly, and get waterfront property owners involved in that program, waterfront property owners who are making a commitment to preserve their shoreline in a natural state. So it's interesting you brought that up because I was actually going to touch on that in our interview, hopefully, oh yeah, so well, expand on it a bit, then We'll talk about that right now.
Speaker 3:So you're talking about getting a potential opportunity for lakeshore owners of, I guess it doesn't matter what kind of watercourse it is. To go ahead, expand on it, robert.
Speaker 4:Well, as you know, property owners that have a minimum parcel of land I can't remember what the minimum is but property owners that have a forest management plan and live by that plan in the interest of either forest management or parcel of land I can't remember what the minimum is but property owners that have a forest management plan and live by that plan in the interest of either forest management or wildlife management, basically whatever they want to specialize in they make a commitment and they get rewarded, so to speak, with a tax reduction on their property tax. And it makes a lot of sense because private property owners are the stewards of land that we all benefit from in terms of wildlife and carbon capture and all kinds of things. And my organization has a specialty in the protection and the enhancement, I should say, of a very important habitat called the riparian zone. And the riparian zone is that, roughly speaking, that 30 meters back from where the land meets the water's edge, and that's so incredibly important. 90% of all wildlife need that riparian zone at some point in time in their life to breed, feed, to rest and nest that shoreline shoreland, I should say that riparian zone. We call it the ribbon of life. That's a good expression. The ribbon of life is that way because it is doing so much on a day-to-day basis, even in the wintertime. It's doing a lot of work to prevent runoff from going into our lakes and holding back phosphorus that could create harmful blue-green algae blooms. It's doing a lot of great work to provide habitat for species at risk. It's doing a lot for carbon capture.
Speaker 4:So a naturalized shoreline provides multiple benefits and we've been not only promoting that, but we've actually been helping property owners throughout the country, through our program called the Natural Edge, to come up with better alternatives to shoreline protection, rather than what we call hardened shoreline. We can, through a natural shoreline, through native plants, for example, we can naturalize a shoreline for pennies on the dollar compared to construction materials or concrete and that type of thing. But yeah, we feel like now is the time to start talking about opportunities to reward property owners, especially property owners that have significant amounts of shoreline property, and find a way to encourage them with the same kind of thing that woodlot owners like myself have, with a tax incentive to say well, I'm going to make a 10 or 20 year commitment to protect my shoreland with a natural edge type of program, and we would like to see property owners on the lake provide that kind of incentive, because I think it really works, especially in the forest community.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I imagine there'd have to be a lot of things worked out, because I know it's a minimum of 10 acres of forest in order to receive the managed forest tax, land or tax rebate, and so in order for something along that way, you'd have to have a minimum amount of. I mean, you get a lot of cottage people in and you know I have relatives that you know this is my property, I'll do what I want with it. Yeah, um, and a lot. Everybody wants a beach front and a beach out front and sand and all that kind of stuff which a lot of them try to bring into the area which is not allowed anymore. But it certainly changes. So you'd have to kind of figure a balance out to give people that combination of things, I would think. But I don't know your thoughts on that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4:Well, the conversation goes really well for our organization with property owners. First of all, we're not anti-development. We believe that property owners have, you know, they work hard for their property and they should have the opportunity to have the things that they want and need on that property. We just bring in kind of a refreshing new look on things Like you don't really need to manicure that property right down, you know, you don't need to cut the grass right down to the water's edge. That's not doing anything for the property that they purchased. It doesn't do anything for the reason they purchased the property to begin with, which was ultimately anybody that owns property in the lake will tell you I bought the place here in the lake to enjoy nature.
Speaker 4:So what we find out, though, is there's some misconceptions. We can do a lot with 50%, 60%, 75% of the shoreline naturalized and still have a spot for the dock and the boats and the seating area and stuff like that, and inevitably we find out that, yeah, this could actually work even to have a no-mow zone. And then, with the native plants, first of all, they're gorgeous, like the native plants can really take off in just a couple of years' time, and we provide advice, we do a planting plan. We actually go out to the property and do free site visits and we have an app with our program and we actually walk through the shoreline property owner what it could look like in three or four years because we want to make sure that we're not planting species that are going to grow up way high and tall and going to block their view.
Speaker 4:So there's lots of great things that we provide and the communication and the knowledge sharing that we've had with property owners on lakes across the country has been significant and people have really appreciated our work. And, if you don't mind me bragging, our organization has restored over 36 kilometers of shoreland that was otherwise degraded or run. You know, run down, cut down. We've brought that back and that's significant. And it's 36 kilometers. You have to think that that's all work, basically getting down, you know, boots and shovels on the ground. We're an organization that is all about physical hard work.
Speaker 3:Right, so you mentioned this free site visit. Now I know I tried to bring up the reference that started this dialogue was the managed land forest tax rebate, and I brought it up with a guy by the name of Joe and I don't want anything to do. Once you do that, then they'll control everything and they'll tell you what you can do and you can't do. But that's not the case. Here is what I'm hearing, correct?
Speaker 4:No, not at all, it's all about taking pride in the property. One of the best compliments we ever received, one of our Natural Edge supporters said basically, through the Natural Edge program I went from being a shoreline property owner to a custodian of the lake and I like that expression because it tells me that he gets it. The property owner gets it, even on Pi Acres here, my property. I have to remember that what I do on this land benefits, or if I was to do things could, uh, negatively affect the entire landscape, that it's all puzzle, right, um and uh. So somebody that has that mindset, um, if they talk to Watersheds Canada, I, I'm, I'm, I'm a hundred percent sure that they would have a different feeling about what the work goes towards and that property owners are always in control, they always have that flexibility. If it doesn't work they could take it out.
Speaker 4:But that's not the case. We actually find we're getting calls back to take it even one step further, to further enhance it, and then property owners to the left and right want to be involved as well. So you're always going to get that person that says you know the cynical audience out there, which I respect and I can be pretty darn cynical myself, but we're non-regulatory. We're good, old-fashioned charity boots on the ground. We're just trying to send the right message to protect the lakes for the next 150 years, or the next seven generations ahead, as they say.
Speaker 3:Well, seven generations, that's a very First Nation Indigenous saying correct.
Speaker 4:It is. It is and we come by that honestly because we actually do a lot of work with Indigenous communities and we see the future in that and we hold that dear in our heart and we have a lot of respect for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know my family, my father, has had his Métis status, bless his soul, along with my sisters and cousins and uncles and things like that, and a lot of people don't realize, especially when they're heading north, at least on the 400 series or 69 highways, you see the gas stations and stuff called 7 Gens. That's why, because it's seven generations, that they kind of look at how things are going to be impacted for seven generations, correct? Yeah?
Speaker 4:that's right. I actually didn't make that connection, you're right. Yeah, that's really good, jerry, and I'm really passionate about looking at things in that long range. Like seven generations is a good horizon to be working on all the time.
Speaker 4:Yep long range like seven generations is a good horizon to be working on all the time. Yep, and I take a look at like the work that we did this fall. Our organization planted I just got the numbers the other day at the staff meeting this year we planted 12,000 plants. We put in 12,000 plants in the ground. I'm like my goodness, that's a lot of plants. But you know, in the grand scheme of things, like, what does 12,000 plants really mean? Well, but in the grand scheme of things, what does 12,000 plants really mean? Well, we're 23 years old, so 12,000 plants year after year. Now we're pushing 200,000 plants in the ground. So to get to that seven generations ahead, you have to. There's another old expression the best time to plant an oak tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today. That's so true in the work that we're doing, we are really doing the work today of seven generations ahead.
Speaker 3:So these programs, when you talk about the free site visit, that's Canada-wide available.
Speaker 4:So we're expanding. We've got program delivery partners thanks to a sponsorship from RBC Tech for Nature. We're expanding our program. We have, we are our own regional delivery program partner in Eastern Ontario. We work with Quinney Conservation, muskoka Watershed Council. We are in Ontario at least we are in many parts of the province and expanding now across the country with this RBC support. So what we do is we're a staff of 10 right now, I should say, two being interns.
Speaker 4:So how do we do all this work at a national scale? Well, all of our programs are basically programs in a box Yellow Brick Road and we design. We love sharing our information. We do not hold anything back, everything from where to get the funding to where to get the plants, our native plant database. We've spent an incredible amount of donation dollars on the development of these programs so that it's available to other people. We just don't keep it to ourselves. So we are training program delivery partners across the country to take this program into their own community. So the work that I'm referring to mostly honestly reflects the work that we've been doing as our own regional delivery unit out of eastern Ontario. But it is quickly expanding, even involved in the Severn Sound Environmental Association through Berry, midland, georgia Bay Area. I should say and yeah, we just got a lot of great things going on. We're really building up momentum.
Speaker 3:Very good. Now you're in Norwood, which is, I know it well, east of Peterborough. My son, the 27-year-old, used to play for the Norwood Nemesis Junior, a hockey team there, so he was driving up to Norwood all the time To play the Hornets. Yeah, but where is the Watersheds Canada located? The same place.
Speaker 4:No, I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that from the beginning. Our office is in Perth yeah, beautiful Perth, and we have staff that live around the Perth area. But we're basically a remote organization in terms of the day-to-day. But our field work brings us together and that's when we can plant spring and the fall we are and deliver. Our fish habitat project happens in the fall before, particularly for lake trout, before lake trout spawn. It has to be done in September. So our field work kind of brings us together. So it's really cool, Like some days I could be here in Norwood seeing everybody on Zoom. The next day we're, you know, up on, you know, a lake beside Algonquin Park doing a fish habitat project, or out the next day along the St Lawrence River. So we are everywhere where we need to be and where our grants and funding and partners take us.
Speaker 3:Well, certainly it sounds like it's a dream kind of job for a person like yourself who loves being with the outdoors and protecting habitat and fish and all those other things that you get to enjoy. But, robert, explain this fish habitat project that you're just we're talking about and and give us some of the highlights, even whether it's a you mentioned about the lake tout uh, restoration programs, I guess yeah.
Speaker 4:So what's coming up here is, first of all, um, um. We are unique in that in Ontario, in Ontario alone, because we have to deal with Ministry of Natural Resources staff which are just a pleasure to work with with respect to our fish habitat work. They actually cheer us on because there's very few organizations that are doing the kind of fish habitat restoration work that we're doing, and we have come up with a number of programs to support fish habitat. In particular, we've been delivering brush bundles. We've actually been getting permission by the Ministry of Natural Resources, finding lakes and sites that are suitable and appropriate and safe to do so, and we've been dropping in brush bundles to support fish populations. Brush bundles, or woody debris as we call it, is a natural component of lake life, lake ecosystem. But with more of these developed lakes, some of the lakes are getting cleaned up Air quotes there cleaned up, so some of the logs or the structure is not ending up in the lake, so we've been adding brush bundles to lakes.
Speaker 4:We've also been washing walleye spawning beds and lake trout spawning beds and that seems strange to say that we're in the water washing, but we really are actually in the water with a high pressure hose, washing off the spawning bed, and what we're doing is we are removing the buildup of silt which makes it very difficult for walleye walleye to uh uh spawn, or lake trout to spawn. So, um, yeah, so we're um, we're we're taking that kind of work on and we are um not only restoring uh walleye spawning beds, but we're back out in the um in the wintertime with uh loads of uh gravel or loads of loads of washed river stone and we are washing, adding rock to those spawning beds. So we GPS them and we know where to go in the wintertime. We get volunteers to come out with their ATVs and snow machines and we basically put the stone on the ice. And when the ice melts, of course the stone falls right into place over top of the spawning bed and makes it a bigger spawning bed.
Speaker 3:What size of stone are you using when you're talking about washed river stone and things like that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's two sizes and there's a size for walleye and there's a size for lake trout and from memory I can't remember what we use, but we have experts on the job that make sure that we get the right washed river stone. And we call it washed river stone because we don't want uh, we make sure it's washed because we want to make sure it's clean rock going into the lake right and and some of that.
Speaker 3:There was a video because I ran a classroom hatchery program where essentially we'll put rainbow trout eggs in aquariums and schools and and it was a whole thing that well, we did a podcast on it with my son, josh, because it was in his school. It was one of the places. But some of the stuff is that the eggs need to breathe, just so people understand the removing of the silt and why that's important and what happens when you get an over-siltation on breeding grounds. So maybe you can elaborate on that a bit.
Speaker 4:Oh, you got it. And I've learned a lot in the last couple of years too, that some of the sites that we work on are off of the edges of islands and they're areas in prevailing winds and fish need to make fish eggs need that oxygenation, which is not just by the current but it's also caused by wave action. So, yeah, so a buildup of silt is basically there's just no, there's no way that those spawning sites, even though they're historic spawning grounds, it doesn't mean that they're going to be as productive year after year after year. So they really need care and maintenance. And it's thanks to local lake associations.
Speaker 4:Anglers themselves have come forward and say we're seeing a major decline of walleye in this lake, for example. Can you come out? We come out, we take a look at it and then we start knocking on doors. We go knocking on doors for the funding to be able to pay for the rock, to pay for the staff, to pay for all the materials, and then we have to go to the M&R. So it's quite a process, like we just finished a project on Baptiste Lake around Bancroft that took it was basically two and a half years, almost three years, in the making. Oh, and that project's really cool. I'll tell you why.
Speaker 4:Because this Baptiste Lake is a walleye lake, but with very few walleye left in the lake. But there's a creek on one end of the lake that was once known as a walleye spawning creek. The difficulty is we couldn't get to it. We couldn't just drive up to it with a vehicle or an ATV and we couldn't just boat into it, because it goes up a creek and basically the boat bottoms out. Anyways, the question is, how do you get over a ton of rock plus a Honda pump with pressure washer hose, but this creek? Well, you bring in the volunteers and bless their hearts. These volunteers showed up at nine. They didn't go home to seven. They worked all day on nothing more than just a barbecue hamburger and they found a way to float an old dock behind our boats. So we got to the creek and then they pushed this.
Speaker 4:I loved it because it was the good old fashioned. We don't care how hard of work it is, we're gonna get this thing done. I love the resourcefulness of volunteers that really, truly care about what's happening in the lake. And you know what? We met people that day and they said we don't even fish. We just know that this is good for the lake. So that's what I'm so proud of this organization, because we constantly find this, this group of like real deal, a good old fashioned, roll up your sleeves, make it happen.
Speaker 4:Volunteers they don't get paid a dime. They probably gave up, uh, uh, a day of work to be there and, and it was really tough, like I was exhausted coming home and um and and and I'm there not for a photo op, I'm there to actually work and everybody works their butt off anyways. I just wanted to bring that up because that's that's the quality of organization we are and the quality of volunteers we get. I mean, the volunteers make us a quality organization. I just want to point that out. That is not easy stuff yeah, it's, it's good.
Speaker 3:I know I worked with an organization called the Central Ontario Fish and Wildlife Association that used to go into deer yards, working in conjunction with the direction of the Ministry of Natural Resources, and they would do brush cuts. So they would go into a 20-acre area and at certain times of the year, which was usually end of February and March, and we would take crews in in snowshoes at that time with brush cutters and build brush piles to promote new growth as feed areas for deer. And while we're running the saws, the cutters and all that, the deer are actually coming out to feed in the brush piles in these deer yards, mind you, with the snow load that we have now, so you don't get the same kind of deer yarding that they used to have. But it's good that organizations like Watersheds Canada is working on these watercourses because, quite frankly, there's a lot of people out there that fish as well.
Speaker 4:Well, thank you, thanks for sharing that, and I love that sense of great message about the future and the Ministry of Natural Resources needs to know that as well that I actually think that we're going to we're just at the beginning of a new golden era for conservation volunteerism. I think that people like the doom and gloom about you know this hopeless mess of environmental problems that we have, which is true. There's a whole bunch of things going on in the world that we can't control, but boy do people ever feel good when they go out and do a uh, a day's worth of work on a local project. You know what's the expression uh, think globally, act locally, and that's what they're doing. They're they're. They're not just saying, oh, we got this problem. We, you know, you know, have a big talk about it. It's not about talk, it's about actually doing, and I love that. That's what our organization is all about is really hands-on, tangible work.
Speaker 3:So where do you eventually, Robert, get a lot of your funding from then?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we, we run a, we run a tight ship. We, we do very well. On on on grants. We apply for government grants and corporate grants. Some of the projects I just described, for example, were actually supported by Bass Pro Shop Cabela's Outdoor Fund. So when you're at the the register and they ask you to top up, we're actually in there purchasing for one of these projects and the cashier said, do you want to top up for conservation? And we said, yeah, we sure do. This is what what we're doing and the project that we're going to is actually supported by this top up. And she's like, well, that's, I never knew that, uh.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, we, we we've always got our uh, you know, we've always got our feelers out for uh, uh, grants and foundations which we if you're on our social media, you see that everybody's promoted. I I don't want to get into the list right now because I'll forget, but we had a long list of corporate partners and organizational partners involved in our work this year and it was just great to see. And we had a lot of our funding comes from donations as well, which we're really proud of. So we're a growing organization. We've doubled our mail list in the last couple of years. Our email list and our social media is on the rise, so we just keep.
Speaker 4:We just keep showing people the work that we're doing, and people are coming to us to ask how they can either help as a volunteer and or donor. And it's, it's, it's, it's working and it's and, as a you know like we're, relatively speaking, a a small charity where we don't, we don't receive any core funding. We just we. We really don't know, uh, what the next year is going to hold. So it's very difficult to plan as a charity. It's very difficult to plan, um, even two years down the road, let alone three or four years down the road, when you just don't have those dollars committed to yet. But we're, we're, we're proud of the work that we're doing, we're sure of it. And, as, as I think it's a good time to be Watersheds Canada, because more people are understanding that fresh water protection is life, we need organizations like Watersheds Canada doing that hands-on work.
Speaker 3:Right. So being a charity is it do you have charitable status that you can issue tax receipts for donations from people?
Speaker 4:Oh, absolutely, and that's our core strength for our organization is that we do have that charitable status and that we're very proud to promote the fact that when you become a monthly donor or just a one-time gift or a donation, that you actually become part of that legacy for Watersheds Canada. And just in the last year or so, we had a family gentleman and his wife step forward and they gave us, they provided us with our first ever legacy gift and that was, you know, in the name of Doug Smith, and we we honored Doug Smith and his wife, janet Taylor, um, through our uh, through our programs and through our website. And it was actually Doug. I met with Doug uh before he passed away and and he had this idea for Watersheds Canada, um, and I was just starting out, so I was just trying to understand where where the organization could go.
Speaker 4:But one of our own volunteer supporters, who left this legacy gift, said to us it would be great to have he didn't use the word conference, but he said it'd be great to have an event that brings together people from not just cottagers but from all you know.
Speaker 4:He even referred to trappers, like trappers are doing things out there, and he wasn't a trapper himself. He just understood that even snowmobilers out there were doing projects and he wanted an event to bring everybody together that was doing good things, like at a stewardship level, like a grassroots stewardship level. So, anyways, if you don't mind me saying on the show I'll make it a bit of an announcement that we're taking Doug up on his idea and we're actually hosting a conference next May to do exactly that. It's not a conference where you go to and see PowerPoints, it's a conference where you come to and you actually do work. And we're hosting that in Halliburton next year and it's a conference to do exactly what Doug said is to provide the knowledge. So I'm sitting here talking about all the stewardship work we're doing. There's probably some of your listeners like how does that actually happen? Well, we want to share that, we want to pass it forward and a lot of the things that we're doing we learn from lake association members right.
Speaker 3:So so you got no problem. It's no problem. I'm going to plug so it's may of 2025, because once a podcast goes to air, it's on for forever and a day. Yeah, so may 2025 in hallibur. Where in Halliburton? And how do people find out about it and what are they?
Speaker 4:list of details about this conference you're holding Thank you, watershedsca slash conference and uh, it's at the Pine Stone Resort in Halliburton and uh, which is a great location because they actually have basically a lake uh call it a lake big pond area out front and um, we're doing a lot of our demonstrations right outside on the property there. And Halliburton is a great area for us because it pulls from a lot of great lake associations and we've got a number of partner groups in Halliburton. It's central, but it is a national conference. We're promoting it as a national conference and just last week I found out that we've got at least one person coming from uh, saskatchewan, to our conference. So it only started promoting and we're we're getting registrations in already, so I'm I'm thrilled yeah, I was the minister that funded the fish hatchery in halliburton.
Speaker 3:There you were, yeah, so I know it well the the fish hatchery that they have here in halliburton. Not only that, uh, what weekend is it on? Because I have a place halfway between Halliburton and Bancroft and depending on the weekend, we may be around. Oh great.
Speaker 4:It's actually on a Thursday and a Friday, which they say is the worst time to do a conference on a Friday. But we did that knowing that it may, before black flies, get crazy, that there will be enough people traveling on a Thursday Friday to get to the cottage or to get to those areas. So that's exactly why we're hosting it on Thursday Friday to catch the crowds that are headed up that way anyway.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 6:What brings people together more than fishing and hunting?
Speaker 7:How about food?
Speaker 6:I'm Chef Antonio Malleca and I've spent years catering to the stars. Now, on Outdoor Journal Radio's Eat and Wild podcast, luis Hookset and I are bringing our expertise and Rolodex to our real passion the outdoors.
Speaker 2:Each week we're bringing you inside the boat tree stand or duck blind and giving you real advice that you can use to make the most out of your fish and game.
Speaker 6:You're going to flip that duck breast over. Once you get a nice hard sear on that breast, you don't want to sear the actual meat. And it's not just us chatting here. If you can name a celebrity, we've probably worked with them and I think you might be surprised who likes to hunt and fish. When Kit Harrington asks me to prepare him sashimi with his bass, I couldn't say no. Whatever Taylor shared and wanted, I made sure I had it. Burgers, steak, anything off the barbecue, that's a true cowboy. All Jeremy Renner wanted to have was lemon ginger shots all day. Find Eating Wild now on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, we're here in Lindsay, ontario, with Rusty, who's up from California and visits us every year, and Rusty has been a faithful Chaga user for a long time. Rusty, maybe you can just tell us about your experience with Chaga.
Speaker 5:Well, I feel that it has a significant impact on my health and well-being. I believe in what I'm doing. I think that Jerry is very knowledgeable on it. If he says something, I take that very seriously.
Speaker 5:He has spent most of his life in the health care field and certainly knows what he's talking about, and I like to be around people like that because that's what keeps me healthy. And I'm 80 now and I'm going to try to enjoy what I've created with the motorcycle and one thing or another, which will require that I live for at least another 10 years to get back what I've invested in my health and wellness.
Speaker 3:So you're seeing a big benefit from it an overall healthy environment and when you go back to California next month, you actually take quite a bit with you back to California, don't you?
Speaker 5:Oh yes, we're going to be there for eight months and we don't want to run out, so we take it back and we take it every day and you know, like I say, it's not a problem for me.
Speaker 3:Right, so how do you take it, rusty?
Speaker 5:I put a tablespoon or a teaspoon rather in my coffee each morning when I brew the coffee and I put it in as the coffee's brewing. I put that in with it.
Speaker 3:Oh, very good.
Speaker 5:And I put a little bit of cinnamon in with it too, right. And then I sweeten my coffee because, take the bitterness, a little bit of bitterness. I use the chaga and maple mix. Very good that you make up for those that want to be well and stay well, okay.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks very much. We appreciate you taking the time and sharing your chaga experience with you, and we'll make sure you have a safe trip back to California.
Speaker 5:Sure enough, all right.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 5:Thank you Jerry. Yeah, thanks Rust. Okay, thank you, jerry. Yeah, thanks, rusty. Thanks, sir, my pleasure.
Speaker 3:We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening Back to the episode, so I'm going to go back a little bit there.
Speaker 3:Robert, you mentioned about brush bundles, because people are listening about these things and they may have a waterfront and they may have. Well, I can do a brush bundle and put it out. What is a brush bundle and how do you utilize it? And what's the advantage to a brush bundle if somebody has 200 feet of of waterfront?
Speaker 4:yeah, first of all, anything that's put in the water, you need to have a permission or permit from um. It's the work that we're doing uh, I want to stress, cannot be done without um ministry of natural resources approval, as we're talking about in the province of Ontario. I don't know what it's like, quite frankly, in other provinces or even in other countries. I know you've got a worldly listenership, but that's our case in Ontario. So we're very careful to stress, the work that we're doing is with approval from the Ministry of Natural Resources. And our brush bundles look like this they're basically five foot long in some cases, structure a bundle of sticks, a combination of sticks and twigs and branches and I guess it's all the same thing, but like various weights to them. And we tie them up with a special rope. It's a UV protectant rope, so the anti-rot rope, so it doesn't rot, and we anchor them with two cinder blocks and we carefully tie them. We do a whole training session with the volunteers on how they're supposed to be tied, because our brush bundles last years In fact our first brush bundle drop was done 10 years ago and this summer we went in with an Aquaview and found it and it's just still going strong and it's just. It was just teeming with fish. So we also have to let the ministry of natural resources we give them the exact coordinates where they're dropped and the ministry has that information.
Speaker 4:And it's very important to stress that we don't put these brush bundles in any way that's going to create like a boating hazard. We don't put them in areas where in a main channel, for example. So we're very careful. We go out and do a site visit and understand exactly where they're going to go visit and understand exactly where they're going to go, and usually we try to find areas where the lake needs that extra bit of structure for fish, and this isn't necessarily for fish spawning, it's for those woody debris structures provide places, shaded spaces for fish to escape predators, to rest, to have shade, and they also bring in they're basically like a restaurant of various food sources for fish. But they also support amphibians, frogs and all kinds of species will be in those brush bundles, not just the fish themselves. But we promote brush bundles as being a great thing for, for example, for bass and walleye and and, but we've seen, um uh, sunfish and perch and stuff like that use them interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just know that uh, people brush bundle. Explain a little bit, so I I make note of these things and bring us back around a bit.
Speaker 3:And now, one of the other things you talked about, ro Robert, was the oxygenation of water, and I know that I mentioned the way of the trout and in there in a stream, when the water goes over the rocks, it actually oxygenates the water and puts oxygen into the water. Some of the things that you mentioned about these oxygenation for the eggs and stuff like that Maybe you can elaborate on that. And I didn't really think about waves as being one of the key waves, that they oxygenate water as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, we talked about the siltation in particular, and our organization, as I stressed in the beginning, is really a walking talking billboard on the importance of shoreland naturalization and basically the best way to provide water quality, including that oxygenation that you're referring to, which is critically important, is to have a naturalized shoreline, and on our website we have videos that show the difference between shoreline, and on our website we have videos that show the difference between. With an underwater camera, we actually go underwater and show the difference between a shore that is what we call like a hardened shoreline, that has basically the natural vegetation removed or mowed down, and then we go to a spot where it's quite natural, there's native plants and a good 30 meters back buffer zone, that ribbon of life happening, and the difference is so I mean, it's so vivid you would be a believer instantly. But, as an angler and I'm a pretty hardcore fisherman, as you know, jared, this is not a surprise to anybody that's ever held a fishing rod, because, uh, I fish, uh dozens of lakes in a single year and I can immediately tell the difference at, uh a place where I'm going to fish, whether the odds of catching a fish are there or not, based on habitat, um, like it's no surprise to anglers that the the most productive area of the lake are the places where it sees a lot of uh, naturalization, um, and combination of structural areas and so on. So the work that we're doing is is critical, not just for fish life but also for lake, lake quality and lake health. I think we've just had the the record summer in ontario for reports of, uh, harmful blue green algae blooms which, um, you know that's not good. Yeah, not good at all. If anybody's been on a lake that's experienced that before, you know that it shuts parts of the lake right down in terms of you certainly can't have your dog in the lake, can't be swimming there.
Speaker 4:I believe that health units are involved saying don't drink the water until it moves out, and usually those blooms occur in September, but this year we started to hear reports as early as July and on a bunch of new lakes. So that's, you know the answer. The answer to prevent that is again taking care of the lake in terms of shoreline naturalization, and we show a photo all the time in our presentations with blue-green algae on a lake in eastern Ontario and that blue-green algae is so heavy and so thick that it almost looks like you could walk across it, and what I have to explain in that picture, though, is because that picture actually shows this blue-green algae up against a natural shoreline. So, okay, robert, how do you explain this one, right? Well, it's actually.
Speaker 4:What you're not seeing is the other side of the lake, which is highly developed. So the point is you know, it's that comment from the property owners that I became a custodian of the lake. Well, like everything that property owners do in their property helps benefit the entire lake, so that's a case where the blue-green algae can actually be, a result of increased development, hardened shoreline, this, that, uh, this and that, and then it still provides, uh, uh, a major uh issue for the lake and other parts where you would see it being naturalized. So that's what's happening so, yeah, it's well.
Speaker 3:I don't know what the answer is for the blue green algae. It's certainly concerning, but a lot of people aren't aware of it, other than they hear these, uh, you know, in whichever news or social media they get their information from, that there's these blooms out and have to stay out of the water, and I don't. Are you familiar with some of the major causes for it? Just the water temperature and quality.
Speaker 4:Thank you, thank you, I was going to go to that point, thank you. So, water temperatures, of course we're dealing with uh, uh, warmer water temperatures that's why you normally see them um late summer and uh, like in in july, um lakes around here they were heated up like there's some of the lakes. The swimming was just like being in a bathtub. So, um, yeah, warmer, warmer water temperatures, warmer air temperature. Uh, but the biggest thing with blue green algae harmful blue green algae is phosphorus levels so yeah so.
Speaker 4:So again, a buffer zone to prevent that runoff would be, you know, a nature-based solution to to keep our, keep our lakes healthy yeah, and I know here's a question for you.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure if you're familiar. Do you know how much, what percentage of a stream needs to be shaded in order to maintain a cool or cold waterway?
Speaker 4:yeah, well, the magic number for for brook trout in particular for and I, as I said from the beginning, I'm I I cut my fishing teeth on on a trout stream in orillia, and those trout streams, the most productive spots to fish, were the heavily shaded areas, spots you can hardly get into. But anyways, the magic number for brook trout like a cold water creek really is described as being from 11 degrees to basically 16 degrees or 18 degrees. Brook trout can tolerate a bit warmer than that, apparently, but what we're concerned with these days is not so much like sun penetration on the creek, but also a warming air temperature. So, um, our goal with uh, uh, the native, uh brook trout streams that we've been working on, is to get as much cover as possible, not just for uh shade from the sun, but also to provide a cooling mechanism for warmer air temperatures.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, I think the number was in around the 30% mark, as I recall, in order to maintain at the time, 20 years ago, when I was minister, Well, you've got some good information there.
Speaker 4:We've never worked from one end of the creek to the other. We find ourselves in a situation where we come into. We did work on a lake this summer up around Algonquin Park and sorry, on a Brookshake Creek that flows into a lake and the side of the bank was wiped out as a result of a major storm. It might've been part of that direct go, actually in 22. And the root systems because of the storm and of course you could say that the storm was created by you know climate change related kind of storm, but the root systems pulled out. Now you've got this really vulnerable side of the bank that provides it's really exposed. So we we went in there and put in they called choir logs, c-o-i-r logs that were purchased and there was a discount given because of our work from the company that makes them and we put them in and actually planted in the logs native species and then held back to prevent the erosion from happening and coming down to that.
Speaker 4:But we only worked on a tiny section of the creek like we were. We worked all day on uh, I don't know, maybe 80, 80 feet of creek. So it there's and it felt great. Like I, I thought the work that we did is amazing. You'll see the pictures on social media soon, but the work is really intense, hard work, and I just it goes back to what we're saying that everybody needs to do their part.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, there's so many things that can impact a stream that people don't realize. When you talk about, you know being warned by the sun or the warm temperatures, but small things, even dams as well. I know that was one of the areas that I tried to stress. The Boy Scout camp has a dam on it and they dam it up in the spring and they've got a lake there that they teach canoeing on and stuff like that. But what happened was until I explained it to them, mind you, the head person, the warden there that looks after the property, changes all the time. So they would have a dam and it was a log dam. They put the dam, the logs in, and then it was a. The water would flow over the top.
Speaker 3:The problem with that was when it was. You got this small little. It's not so much a lake, it's more like a larger pond where people are going canoeing on. The sun heats it and the warm water rises to the top and goes over the dam and now you're getting as much as 10 degrees warmer water flowing through there simply because the sun's warming it up, whereas I explain to them that they have a bottom flow capability. So once the water's filled up, you open, the bottom, flow up and it flows through the bottom and it keeps that water that much cooler, and small things like that have a huge impact on watercourses, wow.
Speaker 4:I love this, jerry. I appreciate you. This is. The great part about our work is that we thrive on talking to people that know really just as much as we do about watershed protection, and some of our best information, our best dialogue, comes from people like yourself that are really involved in. They just didn't learn about it in a textbook. They've actually been out there and been involved, so thanks for the explanation on that.
Speaker 3:Well, it's the same.
Speaker 3:I find all these people that think it's great to take rocks and dam up the Oshawa Creek, where I'm running my chocolate lab, and they don't realize that when the sun comes out and it warms those areas up, that water is that much warmer.
Speaker 3:So if you keep the water flowing, and especially over the rocks where you're oxygenating the water, it keeps it cooler and keeps it a cooler cold water stream course at a cooler, cold water stream course and I know, robert, you're probably not familiar, but I called it Healthy Waters, healthy Fish program where we tried to protect headwaters of a lot of the water courses, basically in Southern Ontario, to make sure that we had healthy streams in there so that we could have healthy fish all along. And it was just some of the things that we tried to stress on and the do's and the don'ts about how you can have a healthy stream and the do's and the don'ts about how you can have a healthy stream, and it's just some of the ways that we try. I'll try to do it, but you know Watersheds Canada is doing a great job in getting this information out there.
Speaker 4:Thank you, thank you. And it's credit to again, it's credit to the partners and the volunteers that we work with, and some of our best projects have been, you know, it's been the leadership of a local group or a single person that's cared enough just to give us a call to say how can we fix this? And let's have a discussion. And that's usually where it begins, especially with our fish habitat. In all cases it's always started out with we see a decline or we see something wrong, what do you think? And then that gets us going. So we love to work that way. Talking about the silt, though, like we were involved in a project on a walleye spawning bed and a beaver dam, talking about a natural dam, but the beaver dam gave out and a load of silt came down the creek and it really blocked up the creek.
Speaker 4:And the Lake Association volunteers they live right beside the creek, so in the spring they actually do a walleye count. If you know what a walleye count is, they basically for your listeners they'll come out with flashlights and when the walleye spawn they can actually, at night, they can see them quite well and count how many walleye are on spawning. And in the spring of the year that we did the work. They had counted zero.
Speaker 4:We went in and we did the walleye washing with the pressure washer. We used a silt curtain, captured all that silt, got it out of there and we actually went in the creek. We had homeschoolers show up to help us with this project and they actually went into the creek. We had homeschoolers show up to help us with this project and they actually went into the creek with brushes and we brushed off the rock. So the next spring rolled around and we couldn't wait to find out. But the volunteers went out with their flashlights to do the walleye count and the very next spring they counted 40 spawning walleye in that same place where the year before they counted zero oh, that's good.
Speaker 3:And there's so many things. I remember the Pickering Rod and Gun where the year before they counted zero oh, that's good. And there's so many things. I remember the Pickering Rotten Gun Club was telling me they were approached by the municipality because one of the faith groups there, part of their faith, is to throw the ashes of their loved and past ones into watercourses and they wanted to know from the Pickering Rotten Gun Club what they thought about that and they were opposed to it because of the siltation issues and the impacts that over periods of time, with larger and larger numbers of individuals doing this, would have on that stream. So there's a lot of things that take place that you know we need to know more about and the overall impacts on a lot of that stuff, yeah, yeah. So I got one more question because you brought up about docks, robert. Maybe you can any. You know suggestions for docks. People are putting their docks out when they're having their cottage and floating docks or fixed docks or gabions or cribs or Great.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we spend a lot of time talking to people about docks because with the Canadian Wildlife Federation we run a program called Love your Lake where we actually go out and do lakeshore assessments and we've assessed over 50,000 individual shoreline properties and as part of that assessment there's a scientific protocol that we do a checklist on, and the first thing we look at is docks. Docks are really important to shoreland habitat values and it's perfectly okay to have a dock. Our organization stresses the importance of floating docks or post docks that are removable, and the reason for that is we see value in floating docks, for example, because the plant life, the aquatic plant life, which is really important We've been talking about shoreland plants, but also the aquatic plants in the water are just as important in the water are just as important. And those dock systems that provide that kind of opportunity for plants to continue to grow in the water, compared to, for example, like the old and you still see them on the lakes the old-fashioned crib docks, where somebody's made a crib and they put it out there and they fill it up with rocks and now the dock sits on top of it Well, there won't be plant life growing. It's right there, of course.
Speaker 4:So, anyways, we recommend a floating structure or a post structure that can be removed, and the whole thing with docks, I should stress. I'm sure that listeners have had a situation where they want to put in a dock. The best thing to do is contact your municipality to find out what's involved in putting in a dock Sorry about my dogs barking and because there's some cases conservation authority or some cases, the municipality that will have some stipulations or some ideas around what goes in for floating docks, depending on where you are.
Speaker 3:Yep, absolutely Well, robert, I very much appreciate all the information you've been able to provide us. It's certainly been a learning experience for myself and to learn more about Watersheds Canada and the great work they do. To be honest, I didn't really know about it until we talked about it now, and it sounds like a great organization, one that I think a lot of people would like to get involved in, and when they get involved, it's not something that you have to do every weekend or once or twice a month. If you can come out for a project in your area in a year, it's probably something your organization would appreciate. I would think yes, no.
Speaker 4:That's great, jerry. I've enjoyed talking to you as well, and I think I've learned just as much from you. You're a good man for all the jobs that you've ever done, including at the National Resources Minister level, and here you are and we're still learning from each other. So it's been a pleasure, jerry, and anybody that wants to be involved in our organization if that's my cue to provide where to find out information, it's watershedsca, and as soon information, it's watershedsca.
Speaker 4:And as soon as you get to watershedsca, yes, we are that organization that has the pop-up box that asks for your email address, and we make no apologies for that. And I'll tell you why is because we don't believe in spending our hard-earned donation money on big ads and direct mail to get information out. The best way to get uh to support a charity uh is through volunteer donations and that email address. That email address provides a critical source of communication. So please visit watershedsca uh sign up for our e-newsletter. Our newsletter is amazing and uh follow us on social media. It's every day is uh something really cool that we're showing off about our projects and our volunteers.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks very much, robert. We really appreciate watersheds, canada and yourself doing the great work that you're doing out there, because you're making a difference for a lot of people all around and it's it's helping a lot of well. Basically, it's some of the key components of the building blocks of our communities and our outdoor life and all those different aspects. Whether you talk about that 30 feet from the shoreline or the waves oxygenating and the cleaning up of the spawning beds and stuff like that, it's certainly something new that we're all learning or I learned about, at least, in a different perspective of things that are happening out there under the canopy. Thanks, robert.
Speaker 7:Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola.
Speaker 8:And I'm Pete Bowman.
Speaker 7:Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show.
Speaker 8:But now we're hosting a podcast that's right. Every Thursday, Angelo and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio.
Speaker 7:Hmm, now what are we going to talk about for two hours every week?
Speaker 8:Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 6:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
Speaker 7:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors.
Speaker 5:From athletes. All the other guys would go golfing.
Speaker 8:Me and Garton Turk and all the Russians would go fishing To scientists. Now that we're reforesting and letting things freeze.
Speaker 1:It's the perfect transmission environment for lime to be.
Speaker 6:To chefs If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 7:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.
Speaker 8:Find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 7:How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, steve Nitzwicky, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people, share their stories of our trials, tribulations and inspirations, learn and have plenty of laughs along the way. Meanwhile, we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass and we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing show.
Speaker 8:My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that might be for more fishing than it was punching you so confidently.
Speaker 7:you said hey, pat have you ever eaten a drum? Find Diaries of a Lodge Owner now on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.