Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode75: Organic Council of Ontario with Dr. Erica Shelley
This episode highlights organic farming while featuring Dr. Erica Shelley from the Organic Council of Ontario, who shares valuable insights on sustainable agricultural practices. Listeners learn about the importance of local ecosystems, the role of fungi, and the support systems necessary for organic farmers to thrive in an increasingly challenging environment.
• Insights into the Organic Council of Ontario's mission and services
• Introduction to Chaga’s health benefits and plant relations
• Discussion of mycorrhizal networks supporting plant vitality
• Challenges faced by young farmers in a changing agricultural landscape
• Advocacy for sustainable farming practices and local purchasing
• Call to action for supporting local environments and producers
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Speaker 3:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe.
Speaker 3:After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people. That will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy.
Speaker 3:Under the Canopy, okay. First off, same as always, I want to thank all those listeners Canada-wide, through the states, switzerland, ghana, trinidad, tobago, all around the world, that listen to us and, as usual, should you have any questions or any kind of suggestions for shows, we'd be more than happy to hear them and do what we can to get them on. Sometimes it takes a little bit to put it all together, but we do try to do it as best we can, and today we have a special guest, dr Erica Shelley, from the Organic Council of Ontario. Welcome to the program, dr Shelley.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3:No, it's my pleasure.
Speaker 4:So tell us a bit about yourself, like where are you from, where'd you grow up, just so people around the world know. You kind of get an understanding of where we are in Ontario For sure. So I'm currently located in Kitchener, ontario, canada, and it's about an hour west of Toronto, so I'm in the densest population area of Ontario southwestern Ontario and the Organic Council of Ontario is actually headquartered in Guelph, ontario, which is about 20 minutes from where I am here. I actually grew up in the United States, so I'm from Arizona, mesa, arizona, but I've been in Canada for 25 years, so I feel a lot more Canadian than I do American and yeah, so that's a little bit about you know where I'm from.
Speaker 3:Interesting. So are you actually an American citizen or a Canadian citizen, or dual citizenship, or how does that work?
Speaker 4:Dual citizen yeah, so I still have my American citizenship. And then I became a Canadian citizen in the early 2000s.
Speaker 3:Oh, very good, Very good. So tell us a bit about your background and your PhD. Where'd you get your education from?
Speaker 4:So I did my undergraduate at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, maryland, and I focused on biology there, and then I actually went to graduate school in the Pacific Northwestern United States at Oregon Health Sciences University. I received my PhD in molecular and medical genetics and kind of worked in sitting cancer biology, but particularly with fungi, and so it's actually fungi that have led me to where I am today. I have a company that does honeybee and bumblebee research, called Best for Bees, and we use fungi for the treatment of varroa mites inside beehives using a special process where the bees deliver, do all the work for us. And yeah, so that's sort of my background beekeeper, you know, a researcher and then I actually work with a lot of farmers as well as part of that research.
Speaker 3:Well, you just may have opened up a can of worms, because I have been I do quite a bit of research as well a primary researcher and I deal with, do you know, anotonous Obliquus Chaga.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I've got over a thousand studies worldwide on Chaga and some of the research that I've done, and I've created a material actually that we saw. I provided it for beekeepers and a hundred percent of the hives that consume this material survive where all the other hives all died off, and so it appeared that we were able to boost their immune system substantially. But we can talk about that in a bit, which I'm sure I'd love to get into. Yes, there's some of the stuff now. Well, we started down that path, so I'm going to go down that rabbit hole a little bit. There's something that are you familiar with Paul Kelly Out your Way.
Speaker 4:Yep, I know Paul yep.
Speaker 3:Okay, so in one of his videos he talks about a kind of a paste that bees were putting on top of their hives. That basically came from poplar trees, alder tree, aspen trees Are you familiar?
Speaker 4:with that. I'm not actually familiar with that research, so tell me about it.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, no, I wanted to find out more about it because I found it very interesting. It was basically a protective for infections and things like that that the bees created and they had this. It almost looked like let me see you know what those fruit roll-ups look like. It looked like a fruit roll-up paste which was dark in color that was on top of the hive. That provided protection against various infections and diseases, and I was trying to find out more details about it from Paul, but I haven't been able to connect. So anyways, yeah, and some of the research that I've found was that the bees were consuming the material that I produced with the basis of. It is mostly the chaga mushroom that they were consuming that seemed to help them with the mite infections, or whichever the case may be, because there was a number of oh, I can't remember the disease. What's that one? Is it black wing disease?
Speaker 4:Oh, deformed wing virus.
Speaker 3:Okay, that was another one that it seemed to assist with and a couple of others that were very interesting. But bees are something that I find very interesting and a lot of people do, and I know that a lot of public at large and I regularly tell people look, if you want to help the bee industries, to help pollinate and recently actually I had an organic farmer, I don't know, do you know Mike Lanigan lanigan?
Speaker 4:his name sounds familiar. What does he farm?
Speaker 3:uh, well, he's, he's got a hundred acre farm up in your oxbridge.
Speaker 3:He just basically recently shut it down, uh, because of covid and they basically it was extremely difficult during covid but, um, and he was carrying bees and he went from about four pounds uh of material to 400 pounds simply because of his bees over the exact same crop area because of pollination reasons, and Mike was talking about this. So it was very important and I stressed to a lot of people that if you want to keep bees as an active part of the environment, make sure that you buy local honey from the local farmers to support those beekeepers, to keep them going, because when you buy it at the big conglomerates, you're not really assisting the local beekeepers to keep them functioning and going. And buying it at farmers markets, where you're buying it directly from the beekeepers, or locally on the roadsides where beekeepers are selling their honey, is one of the key ways to keep those individuals active with that, and I didn't realize that yellow jackets can be very detrimental to beehives. Maybe you can elaborate on that if you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 4:Oh, I absolutely do. So. Part of the research that we do with the Best for Bees company is actually we have an entryway that keeps out yellow jackets. So it was not planned that it was going to be a protection. But because we have such a huge issue here during, when we basically have not enough nectar, the yellow jackets do start attacking the beehives to get both the sweet and they actually will eat the larvae, the bee babies as well. And yeah, it can lead to huge losses if the hives aren't able to protect themselves.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I didn't really realize that because I did another show with the Invasive Species Network where we talked about I think it really realize that because I did another show with the Invasive Species Network where we talked about I think it was the what do they call it the giant Asian wasp, and I wondered about the impact on beehives. But I found out later that the yellow jackets will actually go in and kill an entire hive, which I found fascinating. I had no idea that wasps and bees fought like that and maybe you can just elaborate on that a bit.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean basically if a hive is weak or if a lot of yellow jackets, wasps, hornets, any of those can go ahead and decimate an entire hive. If a hive's healthy, it'll generally be able to protect itself, as long as there's not large food shortages. But yeah, it has to do with the wasps are often just stealing, so they'll chew open the cappings and they'll take the honey. They'll actually take the babies. So when they're eating the larvae then obviously that starts to diminish the bee population as well, and then when you look at the hornets, particularly that tend to hover outside, they'll actually catch the bees leaving and coming back to the hive with food as well.
Speaker 4:So there's a lot of issues around hornets, yellow jackets, wasps, and there's some that are really aggressive. So there's a yellow-legged hornet that's been in the Southern United States that they've been trying to fight and actually I think I saw a news article this week that came out to say that they've actually been successful at limiting the spread of that particular wasp. So that's excellent news, and same for the hornet. It's more in Europe now as well. So, like in England and France, they're having to deal with that, but we don't actually have to deal with those particular hornets here in North America, thankfully.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was quite surprised. So now, when the yellow jackets attack a hive, I know at certain times, usually at the end of of summer, you start to see the, the wasps and the jackets all over the place and they put out these, these, uh catchers, to catch a lot of the, the um, bees and wasps out there. Is that the time of year that they typically attack hives, or is it all year long?
Speaker 4:Oh, it's definitely later on in the season. So when wasps are going into the final, the end of their life cycle, for a season, the queen actually quits laying the queen. For a season, the queen wasp quits laying her eggs and it's actually the larvae inside a wasp nest that produces a sticky substance that the adults will actually eat the adult wasps. And once she stopped laying, what happens is that they lose that food source from inside their hive and that's why they become more attracted to people drinking soda pops and sweet stuff and just foraging more for food than you see them earlier on in the season. And then, of course, as the season wears on, it does dry out. There's less food resources in terms of both pollen and nectar, and so then again they're scavenging. They're more stealing food as opposed to getting it from natural resources.
Speaker 3:So this is now. You've developed something that you're saying that will stop the yellow jackets. It's an entry hole to stop them from entering the hive I have.
Speaker 4:I'm supposed to be talking today about the organic council of ontario, though I didn't know about this bee stuff.
Speaker 3:But we can continue on we'll. We'll get to the organic, don't worry, we're going to talk about that for sure uh, yeah, we did, we.
Speaker 4:we actually won silver in the world. Uh, for innovation and beekeeping, for the protecta bee which goes on the front of a beehive, it's for delivering that fungal powder for varroa mite treatments. But we use these red cones and it turns out that the yellowjackets, wasps, hornets, even robbing bees they don't see the color red very well, so it actually unintentionally ended up being an amazing robbing screen. And, yeah, so it's been really nice because we're able to continue to fund our research through selling the protected bee.
Speaker 3:Wow, I find that very interesting. So the fungal powder that you're using, is it a reishi or a turkey tail base, or is that a secret formula that's protected?
Speaker 4:No, it's not a secret formula. So it actually has to do with soil fungi, which we're going to talk about when we talk about organics. But yeah, so naturally there's fungi in the soil called their intima pathogenic fungi. So that means that they actually attack insects and so the intima pathogenic fungi it's in the soil. So you maybe have heard of a few of them.
Speaker 4:But Clonostachys rosea is one that's actually used out on crops for integrated past management and actually B-vectoring is used to deliver that to crops. But we also use Buveria bassiana and metarhizium is the one that's currently undergoing trials and approval in the United States to be used for varroa mites. It's not available yet. It's a multi-year lots of money in terms of getting it approved. So we're just waiting for approvals on that particular fungus. But it is that originally was funded through Fungi Perfecti, which is the Paul Stamets Foundation over in Washington State, so you may be familiar with that, where he originally worked with mushroom extracts and bees. Data is not great on the mushroom extract in bees in general, but I think there's more studies coming out with that, but in terms of these soil fungi working against varroa mites, the data is very strong there.
Speaker 3:Well, I hope to talk about our muscular relationships and a whole bunch of different things that we can talk about. But one last thing that, before we get into what we were supposed to be talking about, I did some work in Sri Lanka. I did some missionary work and was at an international conference there, and one of the things that I found interesting was that they have a strain of bees there that is activated by sound to become aggressive. Have you ever heard of anything such a thing?
Speaker 4:aggressive. Have you ever heard of anything such a thing? Well, yeah, the. You know what we call the Africanized bees. They definitely are activated by sound. If you've ever heard about those attacks, it's often like mowers that will get people that are mowing that will be, you know, victims of those attacks. So I definitely heard of that and growing up in the southwestern United States, those types of bees were common.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what happened was there was a tour in Sri Lanka as a breakout session that went up to see a special temple, and on the temple they told everybody look, you have to be very, very quiet because there is a hive or I'm not sure what you would call it a swarm. It wouldn't be a swarm, but it could be. But of these bees that are very activated by sound, so we don't want anybody talking. Well, there happened to be this pair of English individuals who, yeah, right, we wouldn't. Yeah, okay, we'll just jump, and they wouldn't shut up. Anyways, all of a sudden the swarm just above everybody. And so the guide said okay, everybody sit down and shut your mouth. And everybody had to sit down quietly until they all settled down and then they went back to their normal business.
Speaker 3:But these people from England were like I can't believe that. That was unbelievable, and of course it was to see something like that. But these people from England were like I can't believe that that was unbelievable, and of course it was to see something like that. But we found it very interesting, as I find bees very interesting, but let's talk a bit about. No, not, let's get back to where we're supposed to be talking about, and that's the organization that you're with, the Organic Council of Ontario. What's your position, dr Shelley, with them?
Speaker 4:So I am the executive director and I've just actually been in here since the beginning of October, so before I was the executive director, carolyn Young has been the director for nine years and I'm very honored to have this role, representing all of our industry partners in the organic sector in Ontario.
Speaker 3:Very good. So tell us a bit about the organization. What's the design and function of the Organic Council of Ontario? What do you set up to do or try and help or try and promote?
Speaker 4:So our mandate is literally to be the voice of organics in Ontario, and so that has a lot of meanings. The first is to support our organic farmers, and so we're supporting them in various ways. So, for example, if they're going through certification or if they have any questions regarding certification, we have different resources that we can point them to to help them out in that journey. If they're looking to connect with other organic producers, we actually have a directory on our website so you can find any organic business in Ontario that you want to find. It's actually there on our Organic Council website. We also are involved in educating the public on organics.
Speaker 4:There's a lot of misinformation around organics, and so we spend a lot of time trying to write some of that misinformation so that people have a sense of what organic actually means. And then we also work at the government level. So we work on policy. We work on getting grants to our farmers and ways that we can actually promote the organic sector, make it easier for people to become organic, to get certified organic, and then, of course, one of the big things that we're working on now is starting to bring all the pieces of data together so that we can talk about what organic means, in terms of both environmental impacts and economical impacts, in Ontario.
Speaker 3:So when you mentioned that you have a website where you can get all the individuals that are organic in Ontario, is that just your members or is it any organic organization that's out there?
Speaker 4:Oh, anybody, anybody like say, you live in Toronto and you want to go pick organic strawberries or find out who's selling organic strawberries. I'm just putting that out there as an example. You can actually go to organiccouncilca and type in strawberries and it'll show you on a map map everybody who has strawberries and that's certified organic, and you get that information right there. So that's our directory and it's really nice when, for example, maybe you're a company that is going to make granola bars and you need to source all sorts of organic materials, foods for those organic granola bars, you can actually look at that directory and see who are the actual farmers or anywhere along that production journey in organic. So we support, from what we call the ground, the producers, our farmers, all the way to the people that are packaging organics and sending them out of the country or across Canada.
Speaker 3:Interesting. So how many members would be in your association, sort of thing, dr Shelley?
Speaker 4:Well, it actually. Anybody who is organic in Canada or not in Canada, in Ontario, is automatically a member. So because we are the voice for organics, that is our membership. I think we're around 1,300 when we include those people, as well as those that support OCO, and that's a number of people just believe in organics, believe in the mission that we're doing, want to support the organic farmers, and so they are also part of our membership as supporting members.
Speaker 3:Interesting, so it's only in Ontario. So people looking outside Ontario do you don't have any list of those, or is there a national network that you're affiliated with?
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's, there's a national network that you're affiliated with. Yeah, there's a national network. So we have COG, which is the Canadian Organic Growers. There's also CODA, which is the Canadian Organic Trade Association, and so those are the two sort of federal across Canada that if people are looking in their different locations, but every province has its own provincial organic organization and so if they're looking for more local organics, then going to their local provincial organic websites probably their best bet to find similar things.
Speaker 3:Hmm, so Dr Shelley tell us, is it the same standards in each of the provinces or jurisdictions for being designated organic?
Speaker 4:So in Canada if you're organic, there's basically a federal stamp that you get. So that's the Canadian organic stamp, organic biologic stamp that you probably have seen with the maple leaf on it, and so that's across Canada. So, and I believe BC and they actually have a provincial organic stamp as well, like that they've met those standards, but we don't actually have one here in Ontario, which is a big issue. So I don't know if you're familiar with some of the issues around not having an organic standard within a province.
Speaker 3:So and now are those designations recognized by other jurisdictions such as United States and things along those lines? So when you're designated or stamped organic here in Ontario, would that mean that it's accepted in the States as well, or do you know?
Speaker 4:Well, we don't have a stamp here in Ontario. So anyone who is certified organic that happens to be a farmer in Ontario is actually certified Canada, canada organic and what that means is, if they have that federal stamp, that they are recognized in many nations across the world. So we basically have an agreement with certain countries that our organic standards meet their organic standards and so if a Canadian organic product, for example, goes anywhere in Europe, it's recognized as being the same as the European organic standards and the same to the US. We're above the US in terms of our organic standards. So anything that's Canadian organic is recognized by the organic standards in the United States as well, by the organic standards in the United States as well.
Speaker 3:So I had one question then is if you're certified organic, does that mean your entire property has to be organic, or can your farm or your wherever you're developing these materials? Can part of it be organic or and part not? Or does the entire property have to be designated the same, or do you know?
Speaker 4:So yes, so you can actually have mixed on a single property. So some people choose to have part of their property be certified organic. Some will do other types of sustainable farming that may not be certified organic and then they may actually do conventional farming, and even I was down at Southbrook. They're a winery down in the Niagara region and they go pretty close to their next farm, which is just a conventional farm. So you know they have to be a certain distance to keep the drift from any sort of chemicals that are being used on another farm. So there is a requirement of distance. But if you own, you know, many acres, you can have organic in one section and non-organic in another section.
Speaker 3:Interesting.
Speaker 7:Hi everybody. I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's Favorite Fishing Show, but now we're hosting a podcast.
Speaker 5:That's right. Every Thursday, Angelo and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm, Now what?
Speaker 7:are we going to talk about for two hours every week?
Speaker 5:Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 1:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch. Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show.
Speaker 5:We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes, All the other guys would go golfing Me and Garton Turk and all the Russians would go fishing To scientists.
Speaker 1:But now that we're reforesting and letting things breathe. It's the perfect transmission environment for line to see.
Speaker 2:To chefs If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 5:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are.
Speaker 7:Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.
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Speaker 3:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, we're here in Lindsay, ontario, with Rusty, who's up from California and visits us every year, and Rusty has been a faithful Chaga user for a long time. Rusty, maybe you can just tell us about your experience with Chaga.
Speaker 6:Well, I feel that it's had a significant impact on my health and well-being. I believe in what I'm doing. I think that Jerry is very knowledgeable on it. If he says something, I take that very seriously.
Speaker 6:He has spent most of his life in the health care field and certainly knows what he's talking about, and I like to be around people like that because that's what keeps me healthy. And I'm 80 now and I'm going to try to enjoy what I, what I've created with the motorcycle, and one thing another which will require that I live for at least another 10 years to get back what I've invested in my health and wellness.
Speaker 3:So you're seeing a big benefit from it an overall healthy environment and when you go back to California next month, you actually take quite a bit with you back to California, don't you?
Speaker 6:Oh yes, we're going to be there for eight months and we don't want to run out, so we take it back and we take it every day and you know, like I say, it's not a problem for me.
Speaker 3:Right, so how do you take it, rusty?
Speaker 6:I put a tablespoon or a teaspoon rather in my coffee each morning, okay morning, when I brew the coffee and I put it in as the coffee's brewing. I put that in with it, oh very good. And I put a little bit of cinnamon in with it too, right. And then I sweeten my coffee because, take the bitterness, a little bit of bitterness. I use the chaga and maple mix. Very good that you make up for those that want to be well and stay well, okay.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks very much. We appreciate you taking the time and sharing your chaga experience with you, and we'll make sure you have a safe trip back to California.
Speaker 6:Sure enough, all right Okay, thank you, jerry. Thanks, rusty. Thanks to California. Sure enough, all right Okay. Thank you, jerry. Yeah, thanks, rusty. Thanks, sir, my pleasure.
Speaker 3:We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode, dr Shelley. Can you tell us basically what kind of your members produce? What kind of materials or foods or what sort of things are there in production for organic?
Speaker 4:So I mean organics are everything from. You can imagine your roadside, at the end of someone's driveway, where they're selling produce and they have everything from fruits, veggies, organic meats and beef cows. We also have dairy, which is like your milk, your eggs, your cheese, and then you're going into your more like your greens, so you have your flowers and so forth, beans, and then you also go into those processed foods, so those can be your cereals, your granola bars, your sauces, like basically anything that you see in the grocery store that has organic on it, organic oils. So basically the majority of your food potato chips, right? All of that can fit under that organic, under that organic label.
Speaker 3:And it's pretty stringent followings to make sure they're in compliance, to maintain that organic designation correct.
Speaker 4:It is, yeah.
Speaker 4:So the Canadian organic standards are the rules that are in place in order for something to be labeled as certified organic, and so every five years, those actually have to go through an entire review process. So right now in 2025, we're just headed into that review process, and so, again, these Canadian organic standards are looked at, and the most important part is, in terms of people that are trading, that they're able to take their products or sell their products into these other markets. So it's very important that we're upholding the same organic standards that we're seeing, for example, over in Europe, and so, when they go through those organic standards that's an important part of it. Standards that's an important part of it, and so, yeah, I would say it's very stringent in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed. A lot of people will say they're organic farmers, but they're not certified organic, and that's because they probably aren't doing everything that's required to be certified organic, or they are not able to pay for that certification, because you do have to pay in order to maintain your certified status.
Speaker 3:Right and essentially, there's no GMOs in the organic material, or is there? No not allowed Good. Some of the other things that I have Dr Shelley people like to know is what about individuals who harvest wild rice or wild blueberries or wild leeks or fungi or other things like that? What are those opportunities to be certified organic or can they be?
Speaker 4:They definitely can be.
Speaker 4:I think the word wild whether or not you're referring to a certain variety of those particular plants, versus just going out into the woods and finding them would be the difference.
Speaker 4:So one of the things people we talk about that misinformation around organics missed information around organics. Organics does not simply refer to not using synthetic pesticides or things on the crops, but it has to do with entire ecosystem and land management practices. So what's happening with the soil and how things are being cared for, so it's an entire, and how things are being cared for, so it's an entire holistic practice if you really think about it. So if you're just going, you're picking blueberries out in the wild, you can't say they're organic because they haven't undergone that entire certification process where the soil's been examined and the ecosystem has been examined and this is, you know, fallen within the Canadian organic standards. But if somebody you know like blueberries there's, like you know, the low-lying blueberry bush that you can find here in Ontario that grows natively you can actually grow those with organic standards and doing everything that falls under the Canadian organic standards and then you could label that as a, once you are certified, could be an organic, a Canada organic product.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I know there's a lot of, particularly in Northern Ontario. We see a lot of the roadside areas where they're picking wild blueberries, which are just basically going out and harvesting them, but I believe I see a lot of organic signs listed there but they're probably not certified organic.
Speaker 4:Exactly, and in Ontario they can actually say organic and not necessarily be certified. We don't really have a policing body that tells them that they can't do that, and that's why it's really important. If people do want to know that their product is actually organic. Looking for that stamp is very important because anybody can say they're organic, but actually having an auditor come in and look at what your practices look like, that's a very big difference than just saying, oh, we do things organically.
Speaker 3:And how about? I know that there's a lot of wild caught fish that gets caught and listed as a wild fish in your local markets. Would those be classified as organic, or how do you deal with the things like that, or is that even a possibility?
Speaker 4:So if you're looking at wild fish, you know you don't know what's in the waterway.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 4:Right, and we have some pretty scary waterways, you know, and we've got a lot of non-organic farming happening. There's a lot of fertilizer and other things that can be in our waterways, and so labeling something that's from the wild as organic, you know you can't do that. There is an aquaculture industry, and so if you can actually have fish that are raised, you know, in an aquaculture system that are again with those Canadian organic standards, where they're being fed and the water is being maintained at a certain purity and I actually don't even know what all the rules are around you know fish in particular, but those then can be certified as organic. But just because, again, something's caught from the wild, it doesn't mean that it's actually an organic product, because you don't really know. I mean fish particularly tend to take a lot in from their ecosystem and so and it's just not well regulated and it's unfortunate that other ways can be as polluted as they are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you had mentioned, when we were talking about the other subject of bees, about some of the relationships with the fungi in the soil and, you know, is it something that's promoted through organic activities, where and I'm sure you must be familiar with Dr Suzanne Simard's research, with our muscular relationships with plants and things along those lines.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:So when we talk about organics, it's really about soil health, it's about plant resiliency and so when we talk about all of those interconnections, if you've read those books and those studies, we understand that there's a lot of communication.
Speaker 4:To put it simply, that's happening between roots and nutrition and soil fungi and all the microbes that we have in soil. In terms of what that leads to in terms of plant health but also nutrition. A recent study that's been happening down in Pennsylvania at oh, I'm blanking right now the Something Institute and I'll have to look that up later, but where they're like, they've been looking at no-till organic practices in terms of the plants and in terms of their nutritional composition, and what they're finding is that the longer their no-till organic practices, they're seeing increase in proteins and minerals and vitamins in the same plants as other ones that are in the full-till practices. So we do actually affect the composition of these plants by disrupting the soil and, additionally, when our soil has been tilled a lot, it makes it less stable and unable to deal with extreme weather changes. And just that resiliency piece In organics. That's really what we're trying to do is to again that holistic piece healthy soil, healthy plants, healthy ecosystem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what we call it the mycorrhizal network under the ground, where plants get in touch and communicate and transfer nutrients and things along those. There's a couple of different types. The arbuscular one comes to mind, where it basically encircles the or wait, I think it's the arbuscular one that circles the roots and then connect to roots along through the ground and then the fungi actually connects to it and these nutrients are transferred through those medians in the ground and not only that, but they can nutrients and waters and different things along those lines to feed each other when things take place. You must be familiar with a lot of that research.
Speaker 4:Yes, Yep, absolutely, yeah, it's. You know it's an interesting you know, I like to think of it as the fungal highway underground, Absolutely, and it's exactly what it is. Is that you know things are getting moved along and the plants can actually talk to each other as well. Like there is definitely some communication in terms of you know there's a shortage, or you know a water shortage and start making physiological changes to allow it to adapt to that situation. Like plants have been around forever and they, you know, know how to adapt to.
Speaker 4:You know times of too much water, not enough water, too much cold, too much heat, smoke. There's all these adaptations that these plants have made over you know, all of these years and and and. Not trusting that they have figured out ways to survive over time is probably one of our biggest problems is that you know, we, we think we know everything and and and, yet there's there's so much more intricacy and complexity that happens in soil and we talk about fungi, but really there's also bacteria and you know, and then, of course, even small insects and everything that's under there. The complexity is, you know, a universe really in that soil and you know, disrupting it year after year can have, you know serious impacts in terms of that. You know underground universe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do some lecturing in some of the schools where I get invited into and I know that I talk specifically about that network under the ground and how they communicate and feed each other and those sorts of things, and actually we had the National come in and do a bit of a report on some of that and it was, it was. I found it and I still think it's comical. So the videographer and the reporter you know says well, what would he call you? And I said well, jerry. And the reporter you know says well, what did he call you? And I said well, jerry, and they said no, no, what's your you know, what's your specialty or what? And I said no, jerry's fine. And the teacher jumps in and says no, no, no, and I laugh about it every time because I think it's so. To me it's comical. No, no, he's the keeper of ancient knowledge. No, yeah.
Speaker 3:I know a little bit, but no, I don't know if there's anybody out there that has all the knowledge that's necessary to be passed on to generations. But I talk about that fungal network or I talk about all the plants that are there and the impact that they have on each other and how, oh, for example, a lot of people didn't realize that two apple trees of the same, like a Macintosh apple, two apple trees, both Macintosh, can't pollinate each other. They need a different type of strain of apple in order to pollinate those trees. And I talk about all that to these kids and give them some understanding. And not only that, but there's what is it?
Speaker 3:A book out of Africa that talks? I think it's the Trees Can Talk, and one of the things they focus on is how giraffes feed off the leaves and the one tree sends out signals to other trees to release this, some chemical composition in the leaves to stop the giraffes from eating it when they start to be stripped in order to maintain. And that's just natural things that occur in our environment that are not taken into consideration. But your, you know, the Organic Council of Ontario certainly has a lot more knowledge and understanding of how a lot of those things take place, I would imagine.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would say that you know we cover a lot of information and topics on our website, so there's a lot of resources there in terms of soil health and the effects of pesticides on the organisms, the pollinators, but also the soil as well and how that can disrupt all of those pieces, and so I think there's lots of people who are very well versed in understanding the biology around soil health and fungi and algae and all of the microbial relationships, the farmers that are working towards creating these healthier ecosystems.
Speaker 4:And really bringing it back to where I come from, the bee research and why I was really interested in being a part of this bigger movement with the Organic Council of Ontario and being the voice for our farmers here and all of our producers in the organic sector, is because the way that we have done things in terms of farming has been detrimental to the health of our ecosystems, and we've seen it with our native bees and when I've done my research with honeybees as well, and there are just better ways to grow plants, there's better ways to treat our soil and there's better ways to just have a respect and live mutually where we can feed ourselves but also continue to feed the planet.
Speaker 3:I know that the arbuscular relationships with some plants where I tried to talk to some some commercial apple growers to to essentially try and build that relationship in their orchard to produce a, a more, you don't need as many chemicals when it can fight its own the diseases that come in, whether it's whatever the disease may be it could be scab, it could be a lot of different things that are out there that the plants and they can provide nutrients and within when they're sharing it through the relationship in the soil.
Speaker 3:But it was so hard to get these individuals to see the potential benefit over the long term. But one of the individuals I had a professor on from British Columbia that actually started an organic apple orchard in BC which is quite large, as I recall, and no pesticides, herbicides at all. It was all basically was using bugs and relationships like we just finished talking about to to produce an organic apple that they don't have to have all the chemicals that are utilized in a lot of the other apple orchards to to to give us quality fruit and your organization, as you're saying, it helps a lot of those farmers to take it to the next level.
Speaker 4:Yes, exactly, yeah, so what? Like what you're talking about, biological controls they're really great, right, like there's already a lot of things in nature that can impact pests and diseases without the need for using synthetic chemicals or things that can be detrimental to the environment. And, yeah, so that's part of our job is certifying not certifying we are not a certifying body is supporting those farmers that are looking to transition. They might be worried that they're not going to have as much crop or that they'll not know how to deal with pests and disease, or that their markets may change, and so that's really our job is to support all of those people in that organic journey so that they can make the right decisions and be well-informed as they move into that part of their farming or production process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I recall some of it was the cost to move to that kind of a relationship with the arbuscular, relationship with the fruit trees, or it would take too long to do with some of the key factors. They didn't see the benefit over a short time, whereas a long-time benefit actually produces a better quality product. So the belief is and I'm seeing a lot more individuals who are wanting organic material just because we're becoming more cognitive of all the impacts that all the other things are having on our bodies and our systems here in the world. So anything that we can do to promote that in your organization is a good thing, I believe.
Speaker 4:Oh, thank you. Yeah, there's the Canadian organic growers, cog. They've been working on a study where they've just looked at a number of sites in terms of the economical benefit of organics over time, and what we know is that, yeah, the first couple years is definitely a lot harder, right, you're having to create something that's healthy from something that wasn't healthy before, create something that's healthy from something that wasn't healthy before, and so there's a time, that transition period, and that's why it's usually about three years before you can get your certification. But what we do know is that in 10 years time, those farmers have actually outproduced conventional farming because they're able to adapt to issues with weather changes and so that they just have more resilient crops. So for a short-term plan, it sometimes doesn't feel like the best way to make money, but over the long term, it actually will be a better crop production in total compared to conventional farming because of the resiliency of those crops.
Speaker 3:I recall Norm Sterling he was kind of the dean of the legislature when I was being elected legislature when I was in being elected and I recall Norm saying you know who would have ever thought that potentially the number one GDP for Ontario could be agriculture?
Speaker 3:And it's certainly something that I think the potential is there. We just need to work at it to make sure people realize that. And some of the things that I see is there's a lack of interest for youth getting into agricultural businesses. It's more and more so, I'm seeing, is large corporations taking over a lot of sectors out there, which I don't think is the best way to go. But I think supporting a lot of the organic businesses that are out there, whether it's at farmers markets or going on the website and picking their product up or knowing where you can get those products as supported, will encourage more individuals to start to continue down that line. Because, as my buddy Pierre says, the most important thing that we do for ourselves is the food that we put in to run our bodies and systems, and the more that we know about the impacts of all aspects of how it affects us, the better off we are in making the right decisions.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's absolutely true, and I do like, when we talk about youth, one of the things I was just at the Ecological Federation Farmers Association of Ontario they're meeting in Kingston last week and the big issue we actually have with younger people getting into farming, it really comes down to the cost of land. You know, I know you go across the world with this, but people might not understand where we're located. Land is very, very expensive and in fact, the majority of younger people can't even afford a house, much less a farm here, and so what we're seeing is our legacy farmers are starting to age out of farming and maybe their kids don't want to take over their farm operations. There are actually either selling to those corporations, as you say, but a lot of them are starting to split up their land into smaller parcels and trying to get some younger farmers on there, or we actually have there's a number of organizations that do land matching. So, for example, if you're an organic farmer who has really worked hard to create this healthy ecosystem, you really want that to be passed on to someone else who's going to also invest the time and the care and build the community around that farming.
Speaker 4:And so there is land matching organizations where you can maybe rent the land and the farmers still actually stay there, or a lot of people are doing even community farming. So there's a lot of options trying to get in younger farmers, and I don't think it's that people don't want to go into it. I think it really comes down to the cost, with just land ownership in general and then trying to make a living with farm products. People don't love spending a lot of money on food and in fact, if you have the economy suffering, the first thing people will do is they will actually start eating cheaper foods, right Like that tends to be the first place people will cut back, and so you know it is a very volatile market to be in food.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think more and more people are becoming understanding of the impacts that we have. Understanding of the impacts that we have and certain I I gain a feeling that people are starting to realize the benefits of buying the quality materials. So when they show up at a farmer's market and and actually meet the farmer that's doing the work and and know the soil that's coming out, they get a better feeling as opposed to. You know the the the mass buys from the food depots or where the grocery stores pick up a lot of their food. But certainly the more that we do that, the more that we secure those local farms and help them to cover their costs. Yeah, I'm going to be honest, you pay a bit more, but you're going to meet the person who's growing it and you know where it's coming from and you can talk to them about the quality and everything else directly from that person, which is a good thing, I think.
Speaker 4:I absolutely agree, and you know what. What's the best ecosystem to protect other than the one that's around you, right Like, protect your local ecosystem. Buy from your local farmer that's selling. You know small goods as a beekeeper. Buy that local honey. It's not going to be adulterated with syrup or high fructose corn syrup. And you know you're getting. You know exactly what you're getting. You know it hasn't sat on trucks for days. It hasn't had chemicals applied to it so that it can last a long time. And then you know you're supporting your local economy and all the generations that are coming afterwards as well.
Speaker 3:Yep, exactly, and I think the more that people get an understanding of the, you know how that little difference makes by going and doing that and buying local at the local farmers, the roadside stops or the farmer's markets, it goes a long way in keeping those individuals doing what we like them to do, and that's providing food out in the lands for us.
Speaker 4:Absolutely Yep.
Speaker 3:Well, dr Shelley, we really appreciate you taking the time to enlighten us about your organization and about yourself, and sorry to drag you down the bee rabbit hole, but we appreciate that information. How can people find out more information about your organization or how can they get in touch with you to get more details?
Speaker 4:Well, the first thing I want to actually plug is we do have the Guelph Organic Conference. It's happening January 22nd to the 25th in Guelph, ontario, and it will be all about organics and we have intensive sessions where people can basically dive deep into organic farming. And then we also have some one hour sessions, of course, including beekeeping. We have a huge trade show and it's just a huge event in guelph ontario, so they can learn about all sorts of organics at that in january and uh. And then, of course, they can go to our website, guelph organic, um, or sorry, organic councilca and uh, and there they'll find that directory that we were talking about and a lot of links about how to get certified organic info, the data stuff that we're working on, and our other brand, ontario Organic, where we're working with grocery stores and consumers in terms of educating them on the importance of organics.
Speaker 3:Very good. Well, so in the Organic Conference, January 22nd and 25th in 2025,. They can get that off your website. The details for that.
Speaker 4:Absolutely Yep, and there's also the guelphorganicconfca. That's the other website if they want to go directly there to get tickets for that event.
Speaker 3:Very good. Well, we appreciate you taking the time and it's something different that we're learning about what's happening out there in our wilds and how we take care of things naturally, and just learning more about the things that we can do to protect us out under the canopy. Thanks a lot, dr Shelley, for can do to protect us out under the canopy. Thanks a lot, dr Shelley, for taking the time with us today.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 8:How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, Steve Niedzwicky, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal, Radio Network's newest podcast, Diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people, share their stories of our trials, tribulations and inspirations, learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.
Speaker 7:Meanwhile we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass and we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing show.
Speaker 5:My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that might be for more fishing than it was. Punching you so confidently, you said hey.
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