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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 96: The Hidden World of Responsible Forest Management
What happens in our forests when no one is watching? The answer matters more than you might think. In this enlightening conversation with Monika Patel, President and CEO of Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) Canada, we journey into the world of sustainable forestry certification and discover how a small symbol on your paper products connects to a global movement for forest protection.
Monika shares the fascinating origin story of FSC, born from the disappointment of the 1992 Rio Earth Summit when a diverse coalition of concerned citizens, from environmentalists to industry representatives, decided to create their own market-based solution to combat deforestation. Their vision? A certification system that would allow consumers to choose products from responsibly managed forests, creating economic incentives for sustainable practices.
We explore how FSC certification works through its dual approach: forest management certification that ensures forests meet the ten principles of responsible stewardship, and chain of custody certification that tracks products throughout the supply chain. With approximately 46 million hectares certified across Canada (17 million in Ontario alone), FSC's impact extends from industrial forests to community woodlands and even maple syrup operations.
The conversation delves into practical challenges facing modern forestry—from balancing moose and caribou habitat needs to addressing forest fires, pine beetle infestations, and climate change adaptation. Monica explains how FSC is embracing innovative solutions, including blockchain technology for supply chain traceability and exploring how certified forests might contribute to Canada's "30 by 30" conservation goals.
Want to support healthy forests? Look for the FSC logo—a check mark with a tree—on products you purchase. This simple consumer choice sends a powerful message through the supply chain and helps ensure our forests remain "for all, forever."
How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, steve Nitzwicky, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people, share their stories of our trials, tribulations and inspirations, learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.
Speaker 2:Meanwhile we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass and we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing show.
Speaker 1:My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that's might be for more fishing than it was punching you so confidently. You said hey Pat have you ever eaten a drum? Find Diaries of a Lodge Owner now on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 4:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. But they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. To live their lives under the canopy. Okay, as always, we want to thank all our listeners out there across Canada, the United States, all around the world, as usual Switzerland, ghana, trinidad, tobago and all the other places that people listen to us, which we really appreciate. And, of course, if you ever have any questions or any comments or need some information, don't be afraid, afraid to reach out for us we'll see what we can do about getting them answered on the air or a program that you're looking forward to hear about.
Speaker 4:Now I have to tell you I was out again this morning running my chocolate lab gunners his name and but it was wet because we've had quite a few days of wet weather. But I can tell that the the my stinging nettle patch is doing very well, as well as my mint patch. I've got a bunch of mint growing as well out in the trail, along the trail as well. It looks like potentially it's a little bit early, but I know I'm about two weeks ahead. Potentially, but possibly reishi looks like it might be coming up now, but I won't be able to tell for a little bit till, because it's just kind of budding now and where it is is on hemlock trees and I can usually tell. But it was pretty wet out there and a little bit slow growing and usually not for about two weeks. And then we start to see reishi really rarely coming out. But it's that time of year where the bugs and the ticks are out. So we're making sure that we're covered and everything is taken care of in those areas and so far, so good. But you got to watch out.
Speaker 4:Now today we have a special guest the president and CEO of the Forest Stewardship Council. Welcome to the program, monica.
Speaker 5:Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4:Oh, not a problem at all. So, Monica, tell us a bit about yourself, a bit about your background. You know things like that Whereabouts you're from, and things like that, so our international listeners know.
Speaker 5:Sure sounds great. Yeah, so, as mentioned, I'm Monica Patel with the Forest Stewardship Council of Canada. I started out I was born in Montreal, but grew up in Toronto and spent most of my life here, and, in terms of my professional career, I've spent the last two decades focused on forestry, and sustainable forestry particularly, but I've also had a few senior roles with both national and international levels, including as our regional director for the European office for a short period of time, leading, as well as our global membership engagement dialogues across a diverse sector of stakeholders and groups worldwide. So I've spent a little bit of time kind of working on the international scale recently, but prior to that, I had spent quite a bit of time, of course, in the space of marketing, communications and public relations for various nonprofits through the agency model, and most recently I think it was in 2022, I was also named the Canadian Forest Industry's Top 10 Under 40 as well. So I spent a little bit of time in this space and hopefully I get to tell you some more about it today.
Speaker 4:Very good, and where did you get your background in the forest industry?
Speaker 5:Actually, funny enough, I'm not a forester. People are usually surprised about that. A lot of my knowledge has actually come quite hands on through the Forest Stewardship Council and I've spent a lot of time in the forest, in fact, actually, I was just there in a forest a few days ago and a lot of what I've learned is from stakeholders from the economic side of things, from the social side, the indigenous side as well as the environmental side, and so it's been a lot of hands-on learning here.
Speaker 4:Right, very good. So, and what forest were you in just recently?
Speaker 5:I was in Ottawa last week, and so the closest FSC certified forest is, as a group certificate of, it's called the Eastern Ontario Model Forest and they have quite a few FSC certified community forest as well as smallholders and others, and we were at South Nation Conservation taking a look at some of the amazing work that they have done with restoration, conservation, with wetlands and other spaces there, so it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 4:Oh, very good, yeah, I know, I did. When I was minister I did some work out and we did some preservation of the Alfred Bog out that way and just outside of Ottawa, all right, and yeah, it was. I remember well, I have to tell a story. So it was within a week of me becoming the minister, maybe two, and there was an announcement at the Alfred Bog which I wanted to make sure I did. Anyways, there was an OPSU strike on at the time, so it was only management operating, a lot of the principals and I think the deputy minister was riding with me and we had two managers heading out to the event.
Speaker 4:And in the Alfred Bog they have a special dragonfly. I believe it's called the. Oh, I think it's a Jefferson's dragonfly. It's a rare breed that's found and it seems to be only in that area or identified in that area. So I was asking you know? The deputy minister says you know, I understand that you know that the it's probably not the Jefferson's, but that's the name that came to hand pretty quick there. Anyways, that this rare dragonfly is in the Alfred Bogg.
Speaker 4:And I was a little bit of a jokester at the time and I asked the deputy. I said you know. So I understand that you know it's going well inside the hatchery in the dragonfly, the ministry dragonfly hatchery. And I was wondering, you know, if he had any updates on what was happening with the dragonfly hatchery in the ministry. And of course the managers at the front knew that I was yanking his chain and the deputy minister bought hook line and sinker into it and he didn't.
Speaker 4:I don't know. Oh, district managers such and such, do you know anything about the dragonfly hatchery and whether the special strain of dragonflies is coming along? No, deputy, I'm sorry, I don't know. And they're trying not to break out laughing and it was just a little bit of a kind of break the ice, as the minister and the deputy minister, but I don't know if he appreciated it too much because he took it maybe a little bit too far, but it was kind of interesting. But so you're up in the Ottawa area in a forest up there, yeah, and it was very good. So tell us about what the Forest Stewardship Council is. For a lot of people who've not been involved in the forestry industry they wouldn't know. So kind of give us a bit of a background, monica, and give us a little bit more information.
Speaker 5:Absolutely. So maybe I'll start off with just kind of saying that you know, as the Forest Stewardship Council, we consider ourselves as a sustainable forestry solution to not only help protect healthy and resilient forests, but we want to do that not for all and forever. And you know we use that particular phrase because it's not just about one group or another, it's the forest is meant to be used by so many different people and ultimately we want it to be there for future generations. So we've always used our tagline Forest for All Forever as a great way of describing that. And maybe just to take you a little bit back into history, I love to kind of share the story of how FSC came about, because it starts with a group of people, concerned citizens in the late 80s and 90s. So picture acid wash jeans, big poofy hair a very different era. And it's also a time when people were really starting to grow concerned over tropical deforestation. We started seeing things like boycotting products sold from certain regions because they didn't know or even trust the source of the wood or the paper that they were getting.
Speaker 5:And it was around 1992 when the UN Earth Summit was held in Rio. This, you know, this concerned group of citizens. They went there, they had such high hopes for the summit. They thought it would lead to stricter regulations and government intervention to really stop deforestation and ensure that our forests were really being properly managed. And it was kind of unfortunate because they went to that event and what they thought was going to happen did not happen. So it was kind of this moment where people said, all right, if no one else is going to do it for us, let's take it into our own hands.
Speaker 5:And again, this was a very diverse group. We had church groups, we had labor unions, there was forest industry, we had environmentalists and indigenous peoples. You know they didn't necessarily have things in common every day, but the thing that brought them together was the forest and their concerns. Thing that brought them together was the forest and their concerns and so their vision. When they had these discussions after this meeting in Rio, they realized, okay, how do we make this change happen so that people can make the decisions? And so they kind of created this concept of a market-based, voluntary forest certification that would let consumers make the choice. So consumers would actually be able to, you know, find a product and realize, okay, this came from a really great forest that's being managed responsibly, and I want to support healthy forests, and so I'm going to choose this kind of product.
Speaker 5:And ultimately, it was a year later in 1993, that the concept of the Forest Stewardship Council was actually born. And so, you know, it's kind of interesting to think it goes back into a bit of a historical moment that it took us from to get where we are now. And it's these exact same people that got together, these concerned citizens, that have actually become a part of FSC's membership. And so this is where, till this day, our membership is very fundamental to who we are, to our vision, and we rely completely on this diverse set of economic, social, environmental and indigenous perspectives to help make us make our decisions. They ensure that, you know, we're still have high integrity, while also creating resilience, for not only for FSC but the forest itself, while also creating resilience for not only for FSC but the forest itself.
Speaker 4:I'd like to kind of share that bit of background, because a lot of people don't know that we have this historical story to tell. So, basically, the FSC is a certification body, an independent certification body.
Speaker 5:I'm just trying to let our listeners know kind of give them a better understanding of what we're talking about. Yeah, and I would say I would clarify the wording a little bit. So I would say we're a certification system and the reason I differentiate the words is because I'll tell you maybe a little bit later is certification bodies are also a word we use within the world of FSC that help actually audit and ensure that companies are meeting our requirements, but we can go into that a bit later. But essentially we're a certification system.
Speaker 4:Okay, and is it who funds, or where does the funding come from from this agency?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so I mean, the way that it works just to kind of give you a broad overview is that we create standards for responsible forestry and those standards are. Then companies like forest management companies will voluntarily meet our requirements to ensure that they're managing their forests more sustainably. Through that, they can then use our logo, use market access, leverage and be able to use our logo on products and to answer your question on the funding side, through that certification process, part of the fees that a company pays every year comes back to FSC and then the other portion of it goes to their independent third-party auditor, who is the one that actually goes in to verify that they're meeting our rules and regulations.
Speaker 4:Okay, so kind of give us some of the guidelines of what it is to become certified then.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so we have two types of certifications. I'll start with that. If you think about kind of a supply chain, you think the forest is where the product is coming from, so that's the origin or the natural resource, and then the forest then takes those products when if they're harvested, and when they're harvested throughout the supply chain, so, for example, like a sawmill, a manufacturer, a processor, a distributor and eventually ends up on the retail shelf. And so for our certification we have, as I mentioned, two types. The first type is forest management certification. So this is where forest managers can obtain FSC forest management certification by meeting what we have called the 10 principles for responsible forest stewardship, and the principles vary, so I won't go through all 10 with you right now, but I'll highlight a few for you.
Speaker 5:So, for example, principle three is around the protection of indigenous people's rights. So, for example, principle three is around the protection of indigenous people's rights. Or you have principle six, around environmental values. And then you also have things like management activities in principle 10. So there's a large variety of topics that are covered under these 10 principles, and then those are globally applicable, so every forest around the world abides by these 10.
Speaker 5:And then what we do is here, for example, in Canada, as a national office of FSC, we actually adopt those rules. So we then look at it, say, ok, we want to protect Indigenous people's rights, but we have to make sure it's modified for what that specific country needs, what that specific country needs. And FSC Canada will then actually be the ones to sit down with our Canadian membership and say, all right, all four groups of you, how do we create a standard that will make sense for Canada, based on these international principles? And so it's a really simplified way of looking at it. But it's to tell you that you know we are globally consistent but locally and regionally adaptive for the local country needs. And so that's kind of around forest management.
Speaker 5:And then the second type of certification we have is around chain of custody certification. So this is once that product has left the forest, we then track that product all the way through the supply chain. We then track that product all the way through the supply chain. So it's a way for us to ensure that by the end product, whenever that consumer sees that logo and it tells them that it's FSC certified, we not only thought about the forest but we've thought about everyone else who's handled that product in between. So all supply chain companies will then get a chain of custody certificate to ensure that they're tracking and maintaining and abiding by our standards as well. And then, of course, there's the final product. So you'll see our labels on the product as well to help a consumer identify what it is in the product.
Speaker 4:Oh, okay, Interesting. So, and essentially it's not. It's responsible harvesting of the forest and proper forest practices, correct. It's not producing monocultures where it's only a singular type of tree that's growing in an area. It's making sure that there's plenty of diversity and proper ecosystems being developed in the area.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I would say that's part of it, and I think it goes even further than that, right, I mean, we've had some of. For example, some of the impacts or benefits of our standard include things like safeguarding old growth and endangered forests or preventing deforestation and degradation. There's a big focus on protecting habitats for rare, threatened and endangered species as well. I've already mentioned upholding Indigenous people's rights is another example. But we even then go in the chain of custody where one of the more unique certifications in the sense that we also have adopted the international core labor requirements. So our certificate holders also have a strong focus to ensure that there is no child labor around the world with our certified companies, that there's no type of forced labor or there's no discrimination with employment and occupation, and so it kind of you know there's more all-encompassing methods there as well and benefits of FSC certification.
Speaker 4:Right. So now Kent, the FSC and I know that Buchanan out of Thunder Bay had approached me when I was minister because there was a substantial section of forest that had a significant amount of what was called blowdown, if you know what that is, and that's where you get the large winds coming in with mature forests and you have a lot of breakages and, just like the ice storm that took place along through the Minden, peterborough, lindsay areas, where there's a large number of trees that came down, and Buchanan wanted access to get into these areas on a short notice, because there's a limited amount of time to be able to harvest all this wood that's blown down, otherwise it becomes then potential fuel for fires and fire hazards in those areas. Can the FSC react quick enough to be able to get in and to deal with things like that?
Speaker 5:So our standards would already have that in consideration, because we understand that, you know, forestry is not always the same and nature has a mind of its own, and so there are requirements in our standard of you know, kind of these circumstances of if something happens of that sort, how do you deal with it.
Speaker 5:And so one of the things that we also do is, although our standards are structured and in place, they last for five years, and so what will happen is, in our current requirements, even if the requirement was not there, for example, for a blowdown, then you would, every five years we look at it again and say, if somebody, one of our certificate holders, said, hang on, we're having a big issue with blowdown, can we get that incorporated into the FSC standard, then yes, absolutely, we would take it to our standard development group, which is consisting of members and stakeholders, and we would say this is an issue that's been brought up and needs to be addressed in the next version of the standard. So we're constantly updating to not only, you know, I would say updated science and of course I would say indigenous perspectives in there and indigenous knowledge, but we're also looking at updating our standards so they do meet what people need on the ground as well.
Speaker 4:Right. So what about things like when the pine beetle comes in and does large kill offs in areas, and I know that happened? Slowly it's migrating east again from Western Canada, and how do you deal or contend with issues like that?
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean we've, especially when it hit BC. I think that's when we first started talking about it. We don't have a specific mechanism right now that says you know, you can't use mountain pine beetle. It comes down to what the market needs, and so that's become part of. The challenge is that, although our standard might have a mechanism for it, is anyone actually asking for it and is it sellable? And so that becomes probably the bigger challenge for the forest managers is that if nobody's looking for it, then there's nothing to deal with it in terms of product at the end of the day. Right, Of course our standards include, you know, regulations around use, utilization of pesticides and herbicides. We have a very strict entire document dedicated just to that, and so there's lots of details in there of which pesticides or herbicides we accept and which are not acceptable.
Speaker 4:Right Now. So out west, when the pine beetle came in, a lot of the Alberta and British Columbia allowed substantial cuts to take place, and what that did was it basically had flooded the market with a lot of low valued wood. Does the FSC get involved in making sure that those are in compliance? Because when the pine beetle came in and killed off large tracts of forest, it's doing a lot of devastation and I'm not sure how FSC plays a role in that if they do.
Speaker 5:I would say that well, first of all, I'll be very honest with you. I mean, we don't currently have as many fsc certificates out west. We have a few um. You know, there's probably around six or seven million hectares between bc and alberta um, but that being said, it kind of feeds into my. My answer on this is that we haven't had to deal with it as much because of the fact that we don't have as many forests out there that are certified to FSC. That being said, you know, if they had come to us initially and said, well, we've got this, this is a totally different world of how FSC is managing our forests and we need support then yes, of course we would think about it in our standards From a market perspective.
Speaker 5:Again, it really came down to you know, what did people want to do with it If they were going in and harvesting large areas? First of all, our principle first principle in our standard says did you obey the laws? So are you ensuring that you're not going above and beyond your annual allowable cut, for example, or whatever the provinces might be saying individually? That's the first consideration. And then the second consideration is okay, if you are abiding by the laws, what else can FSC do to support you there, whether that be restoration efforts or conservation efforts or whether that be just mitigation of the pest itself. And so there's different elements in the standard, depending on what the individual forest is looking for elements in the standard, depending on what the individual forest is looking for.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I just know that the pine beetle in it was a huge issue because it was cheaper to send the. I don't know if you'd even call it subsidized. I guess the stumpage rates that were used for the harvesting of the infected trees was reduced substantially in order to promote it. Otherwise you end up with large die offs that end up becoming forest fire hazard problems because you've got large tracts of dead forest that brought in a lot of you know, cheap wood into in ontario. It was quite surprising to see um plywood in ontario from british columbia cheaper than it was in ontario, but that's because of the the allowable cuts that took place with the pine beetle areas that we're going through. So it's tough to find a balance when you get things like that and how you're going to manage and handle all that sort of things. Otherwise, you know, do you have large tracts of areas that have now become like the problems that we're having a lot with a lot of forest fires.
Speaker 5:Yes, absolutely yeah. And I mean, at the end of the day we have to think about as well is, you know, should we use what we already have? That's something there's always a way to. We need to always balance perspectives and efforts, and so one of the things I know that we've discussed is should we be utilizing more of the wood that's available, like, for example, if mountain pine beetle infected wood is something that is already kind of available? I'm not saying it should be high graded or low graded, but should it actually become the first priority because it's already cut, it's already available, and then thinking about going back into the forest for new harvest? It's just one of the, especially now that we're exploring concepts of circularity and looking at where does our wood products end up at the end of the day, we have to think about those things as well.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, and that's part of the decision-making process is how do you kind of define what is the best for the industry as well as best for the forest? And that's what we need to look at Now. In Ontario we basically have a no burn policy, which means we put out every forest fire that's out there, but in national parks they have a burn policy. That's why, when out west, when the forest fires hit out a lot of those areas and I know that a significant number of park individual superintendents that I spoke to were undecided as to how they were going to manage those forests. Does any of that take into consideration when it's being certified whether it's a burn or no burn and how they manage areas like that?
Speaker 5:So actually, interestingly enough, it's something that we're working on now. Is fire mitigation we're working on now. Is fire mitigation Through one of our climate and ecosystem services work? We're actually exploring different ways of how do we incorporate better fire mitigation into the FSC standards. Is that something like indigenous brushing techniques or is that other methods that we may not be traditionally utilizing? That would help. I think I will say parks are typically not certified, because we do typically work mostly with large-scale industrial forestry, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't support a park, so Algonquin Park would probably be a great example. You know, if they wanted to get certified, of course they can, but then the value of certification could be either do our standards support in helping you manage your forest better, or could it also be additional values, for example, around payment for ecosystem services. Could we be actually supporting a park with getting conservation funds to support in not only conservation efforts but fire mitigation or other mechanisms as well?
Speaker 4:Now, is it just forest that you, or is it the entire ecosystems? And the reason I ask that is because recently we did a recording with the Royal Botanical Gardens, who actually go in, and they were burning prairie grass sections off with a special way and a controlled way. So is it just the forest that you tried to deal with or is there adjacent to the forest you get involved in those, or is it just basically with the forest?
Speaker 5:Traditionally, it would be the forest itself. However, we do recognize that there's a sphere of influence when it comes to a forest management area. You know there's, you know a forest is. They don't know traditional boundaries like we do. We've created these maps and lines, but if you actually walk in the bush, you may not actually see a distinction when you're walking around.
Speaker 5:It's a landscape, right, it's a full landscape that we're working with, and so we do consider what kind of what kind of influence can a forest management company have to what's adjacent or nearby? And how do you work, especially if you have overlapping tenures or anything of the sort? How do you work with other companies to ensure that not only can you meet the standards, but that, uh, you know that you're working along with companies that are moving in the same direction, or trying to at least, so that you're not kind of putting efforts in one area which could be the opposite in another area that's in the same forest management area. But, yeah, so I would say that there's traditionally again, yes, probably, forest management units are typical for language that we all use, but there's a degree of influence beyond that as well.
Speaker 4:Right Now. You mentioned that about pesticides and herbicides not being used, but I know in Ontario we have a no fertilization policy. Is that something that's looked at as well in other jurisdictions? Or do you even deal with fertilizers, because I know you mentioned pesticides and herbicides?
Speaker 5:We would deal with soil but we wouldn't. I'd have to specifically look into the exact wording in our standard around fertilization. But right now if I had to answer that, I would say I don't think we do. But again, it might be detailed into the standard itself.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I just I don't think a lot of listeners would realize a couple of things. We have a no burn policy, which means Ontario puts out every forest fire that's out there in the province of ontario and crown land and that you're not allowed to fertilize any of the forests to promote growth. And that's a natural thing, although when forest harvesting takes place they use a lot of the residuals to go back into the soil, into the cycles that utilize a lot of the material there.
Speaker 6:Back in 2016,. Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.
Speaker 3:Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.
Speaker 6:Thus the Ugly Pike podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North America.
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Speaker 4:Podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts. And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Hi, it's Jerry from Chaga Health and Wellness. Hi, it's Jerry from Chaga Health and Wellness. We're here in Lindsay with Tula, who is actually from Finland and uses Chaga. Tula, you've had some good experiences with Chaga. Can you just tell us what that experience is?
Speaker 7:Yes, I got sick with fibro, and one weekend my husband came here alone. I was home and he brought your leaflet.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 7:And I read it and I said next weekend when we go to a market we're going to buy some. And so we started putting it in our morning smoothie.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 7:And among a few other things that I was doing. Because of that, the Chaka has been the steady one Right. I would not want to live without it.
Speaker 4:Oh good. Yeah, so it's been working for me Very good, lots of ways, and you had some good luck with blood pressure as well.
Speaker 7:Oh right, yeah, Thanks for remembering that. Yeah, I had a little bit of high elevated blood pressure and within two weeks of starting that every day, every morning, it went to normal.
Speaker 4:And you think the chaga was the reason why.
Speaker 7:Well, I didn't do anything else in that time frame Very good.
Speaker 4:And so how much chaga did you have and how did you have it?
Speaker 7:Well, we just put that powder in a smoothie, right, yeah? And it's about tablespoon yeah, no, it's less than tablespoon for two of us.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 7:So you don't need that much.
Speaker 4:Right About a teaspoon yeah.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Very good. Well, thanks very much for sharing that. We really appreciate that and wish you all the best with the Chaga. Oh, you're from Finland as well, and Chaga is pretty popular in Finland, is it not?
Speaker 7:I think it probably is, because there's some professors in a university that's teaching it and talking about it and of course, it's big in Russia.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 7:Because that's where you know the northern woods that it comes from. Yeah, and of course, finland has lots of birch trees.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and it's the only mushroom that you can't forage in Finland you have to forage everything else, but not chaga.
Speaker 4:Oh, very good. Well, thanks very much for sharing that. Okay, have a great day you too. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY, c-a-n-o-p-y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening Back to the episode, monica.
Speaker 4:Maybe you can tell us, because I know way back when I think the Gordon Cousins Forest was the first certified forest in Ontario, but I'm not positive about that. I believe so, and I know what had took place was. I was asked to do an interview with with somebody from city tv and they were jumping all over me that, uh, you know, ontario was not doing anything and we weren't dealing with a forage standard at all, and I couldn't say anything because two weeks after that interview we were announcing the certification of the Gordon Cousins Forest in Ontario. So maybe you can give us a bit of a background on Gordon Cousins and what took place for the certification, if you're familiar with it at all.
Speaker 5:It's a little bit before my time, yes, but it is still. Gordon Cousins is still currently FSC certified. I did look into it before our conversation and they don't have any current what we call non-conformances. So when an auditor goes in every year to double check that a forest is meeting our standards, these audit reports are published publicly so anyone has access to them and it will tell you if there were any major issues in the forest and how long they have to correct those issues and also you know the status of their certification and with that particular forest at the moment there are no issues that we're aware of and I don't see they've been able to meet our standard year after year. Even when we changed and made our standard more rigorous in 2019, they were still able to meet their certification, but unfortunately I don't have the full history on the background of it.
Speaker 4:Okay, I just want to. Yeah, because I know it was here I am doing an interview, being trying to rip down by this reporter from I think it was City TV at the time and I couldn't say a word because the announcement wasn't coming for two weeks. And I recall when it went to air his comments were I don't know what this guy's smoking, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. That's not just happening in Ontario. And then two weeks later it was certified. So we kind of called back and said well, and of course he wouldn't comment or anything on that. Monica, can you tell us about there's some concern coming up from some groups in regards to a broadleaf spray when they're reforesting, doing reforestation in areas. Do you know much about that? Are you involved in that at all?
Speaker 5:No, I do not personally have enough knowledge around that topic.
Speaker 4:Any of the shows that we go to, there's a group, a couple of groups, that show up that are very concerned when they go in and harvest and then they replant growth in an area to allow the target species, usually being the SPF, spruce pine firs in an area to grow where it kills off any of the aspen poplars and things like that, and so this group is concerned that it's getting into the ecosystem, causing a lot of problems, and I wasn't sure if you were involved in that or had much knowledge about that at all.
Speaker 5:No, but one of the things our standard does talk about is about when you're looking at a forest and thinking about what you're planting or what you're reforesting.
Speaker 5:It certainly looks at original conditions let's call that, for lack of a better word and looking at how do you replace not just any type of tree that you want to plant, but one that actually might be trying to restore it to previous original historic conditions, so that it's native to the area that it's in and that it's actually working to mitigate issues that may arise. So that is prescribed in detail in our standard in terms of how to do that and how to go about doing that. And, of course we mentioned earlier, we've got our pesticides policy so that when you are putting in these kind of seedlings or even smaller trees, if you have to spray that, you're eliminating the most hazardous chemicals, you're promoting best practices when it comes to minimizing the risk associated with both human and environmental health and then, of course, reducing the overall volume of chemicals that are in there as well. But we wouldn't necessarily allow anything further than that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I know that there's a group that's very actively trying to stop the spray Ontario, and it's just they're claiming that the impacts on wild blueberries and a lot of other aspects are having a significant impact. However, I'm not sure that I've seen any detailed research on that and I didn't know if the FSC actually considered or took a look at that. So essentially what happens is the forest gets harvested, clear cut, and then they come in and they plant, replant, regenerate the forest and usually SPF spruce pine fir and at that point they allow it to start. And then the Ministry of Natural Resources, I believe it is, comes in and sprays for broadleaf plants that come in in order to give these other ones a chance to grow. But in that time then you'll see signs coming up saying caution, spray in the area, don't harvest the blueberries, and things like that. That I have seen west of Timmins in the past and it brings a lot of concern to a lot of people. But the more information that people have, the better they can make their decisions on their own.
Speaker 5:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so what other sorts of things does FFC get involved in? Or how many forests are there in Ontario that are certified?
Speaker 5:Oh yeah, we've got approximately around 46 million hectares right across the country and Ontario, I believe, is currently sitting at 17 million, and that's a mixture between, you know, kind of the traditional large forest management units as well as some community forests and smallholders. We've got some municipalities in there as well, so there's a bit of a diversification there.
Speaker 4:Oh so it's a bit of a diversification there. Oh so it's like um places I'm not sure if I know, if you would know or not with places like the ganaraska forest or the northumberland forest or the durham york forest. Are they certified?
Speaker 5:yes, actually northumberland is is certified. We actually just did a quick feature on them recently because they're doing some interesting work out there. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, I was just in the forest the other day, and so it's a conservation authority South Nation Conservation, that's part of it. You've also got forests from the city of Oakville, for example, that are certified, and then you've got smaller units as well. There's a lot of mom and pop maple syrup folks who are, who are certified as well, and so quite a diversity, I would say, in terms of the forest companies we work with.
Speaker 4:So when they get FSC certified, is that an organic designation?
Speaker 5:Are you being like? Is it? You know organic food designation?
Speaker 4:Well, I know a lot of you mentioned maple syrup producers and I know a lot of producers try to get an organic certification and it just adds to their clientele's demands.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and so in this particular case, fsc doesn't just look at traditional, you know, paper or forest products like lumber and paper and packaging. You could certify anything that comes from a forest and that would include non-timber forest products like lumber and paper and packaging. You could certify anything that comes from a forest and that would include non-timber forest products like maple syrup, and worldwide for those that are listening from around the world it can include things like rubber trees. We have other non-timber forest products, such as acai berries and Brazil nuts, and so I would say that anything that can come from a forest can be certified, and usually the reason for that certification especially with smaller landowners, I would say is usually one of two reasons.
Speaker 5:One, you know, when I was talking to south nation last week, they've been certified for 20 years and we said you know what happened 20 years ago that made you decide this? And they said well, somebody told us we had to come up with a forest management plan. We didn't really know where to start, and so we figured, you know FSC was already there. Why not look at your standards and how you were doing it and see if we could figure it out ourselves? And so that's a lot of the time when I talk to the smaller forest owners, they say that's how they started.
Speaker 5:They were looking for guidance, they were looking for help, and they look to FSC to try to figure that out. And then, on the other hand, some of them have actually seen additional market access. So, you know, the little bit that they may be harvesting is actually there's a client that came knocking on their door and said there's a client that came knocking on their door and said, hey, you know, maybe I'm looking for big pine trees for utility poles or I'm looking for FSC maple syrup for an event I'm doing, and so there is a portion that's market demand, or market access, I should say, which allows them to get new customers coming in the door that typically may not have contacted them. But then, yeah, the origination story seems to be very similar for many, which is we were looking for help on how to manage a forest.
Speaker 4:Very good Very good. Yeah, so what other sorts of things can you tell us about FSC that we haven't discussed? Like you mentioned about the interesting things taking place in the Northumberland Forest. What kind of interesting things are taking place there?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so they're working actually a little bit on the climate and ecosystem services space. They've been managing their forest for I'm going to have to try to remember how many years it's been now, I can probably get that to you later, but that's okay. But they've been actually working on how do they support biodiversity in Northumberland County, and so the restoration of ecosystems is really what they were looking at. And you know what do they do to also restore their forests to an area that was originally a monocultural rogue of crops. They had some invasive pine species there row of crops. They had some invasive pine species there, and it was originally. The forest was actually a diverse kind of tall grass prairie. It had some oak woodland. There was savanna that existed there all before European settlement, and so they were looking at how to as I mentioned, you know, fsc encourages you to restore your forest into what it once was. This is what they were looking at is how do they go from this monoculture row of crops to something that existed before, and so they were working, I think, with you know they had.
Speaker 5:Obviously there's the big concept around the 30 by 30 goals for Canada as well, and so they're trying to think about how do we kind of merge all of these things together? We're trying to improve our forests. Canada's got these larger goals. Can we do something that might help contribute to this? And so they're also looking at a concept called Other Effective Conservation Measures, or OECMs, and that is looking at, for example, fsc certified forests are required to set aside 10% of their land for conservation measures, and so can that 10% potentially be permanently designated so that it could contribute to Canada's goals of 30 by 30. So that's 30 by 30 is the protection of lands and water by 2030. And so this is what they're looking at. Is you know, is that something we could do? Could we set this aside? Could we also again go back to our natural habitat by restoring some of the original plant species or tree species that were originally there?
Speaker 5:And now, what they've been able to do I think it was a total of 2,500 hectares that they have been pausing their operations on since maybe about last year, I want to say, or maybe about longer than that, but they have been able to actually pause the operations and so that some of the local bird species can nest and raise their young, and so they were bringing biodiversity back by doing that.
Speaker 5:And then they're also helping to restore the area's local ecosystem as well, and that was because it was lost with the early plantations and ecologists had come in and said you know, there's some indicator species in your forest that if you're not able to protect, you know this will really indicate that your ecosystem could fall apart. And so part of this was you know that they wanted to take several years to get up to this space. Now there are, of course, you know there's a larger plan here at hand and it will take time, but they have been doing some amazing work just in terms of that restoration for biodiversity and looking at the larger picture of how can they help. You know Canada in terms of their goals as well, so they're doing some really interesting work out there.
Speaker 4:Very good. Now you mentioned 30 by 30. So it's by the year 2030. And what's the 30 by 30? I don't think a lot of our listeners would know.
Speaker 5:Sure.
Speaker 5:So this came out of COP 15, I believe it was.
Speaker 5:This is the biodiversity COP, which was originally supposed to take place in China and then was moved to Montreal, so it was kind of a local event in a way, but a global impact, and through there there was the identification of these large biodiversity goals that came up and Canada essentially said you know, okay, we're going to commit to protecting 30% of Canada's land and water should be protected by the year 2030.
Speaker 5:And so that has been the goal of Canada to try and achieve that. This is on the federal level, of course, and the interesting part of all of this is we're trying to now see how each province will be approaching their contribution towards the federal goals of this. I mean, 2030 is about five years away, so the clock is certainly ticking, but this really stems from the fact that we're in a bit of a crisis, a dual crisis, of not only climate change, but also we're seeing wildlife extinctions or wildlife challenges, and so that's why there was a commitment that was made. It's a worldwide initiative for governments to designate 30% of earth's land and ocean area as protected by 2030.
Speaker 4:Okay, now people know, and you mentioned about the. I know some of the things that have been changing in regards to nesting birds. You mentioned, and I recall, the chief forester that handled the Ganaraska forest before he passed bless his soul, bob and he told me that you know something, jerry when we were out and allocating cuts into the forest, we never took into consideration migrating birds and their habitat for nesting periods of time. But that's changed after quite a period of time, because they realized that significant number of birds would be harvesting in all the chicoes, the dead trees and things like that at certain periods, and so the cuts were then outside those guidelines to make sure that nesting was taken into consideration, which is a good thing.
Speaker 5:No, absolutely. We've also seen other examples in terms of biodiversity protection. For example, this was a few years ago, before some of the forest switches were going on, but Rayonier at the time, which was operated slightly different than Rayonier now, but they had actually. They had a certified forest and they actually did not meet their FSC requirements. So it was a while back. It was in 2013, so it's not a recent example, but it's a good example to showcase how, you know, creative solutions come about to protect biodiversity.
Speaker 5:So in 2013, it was a routine audit the forest company discovered they did not meet the requirements in relation to the protection of caribou habitat as set by FSC Canada and based on some of the new information from the federal recovery strategy for woodland caribou.
Speaker 5:It really highlighted the importance that forest management could contribute, and so the forest company essentially looked at FSC's requirements and said, okay, we didn't meet it in this last audit.
Speaker 5:How do we fix this? So they decided one of the options that FSC offers is, you know, get together your local environmental groups, your First Nations, the provincial government and environmentalists and join together to figure out a way to reduce disturbance levels through, for example, minimizing road building or harvesting outside of caribou breeding and migration areas, and so they did this. They got together in a space. I think they worked on it for about a year and it was through this collaboration effort of these diverse interests that they were able to get you know things like traditional knowledge from the local Indigenous community. They use scientific findings that were recent and updated, and then they got into a solution space and a workshop and they figured out a way to actually rectify what had been going on previously. And so you know, it's certainly something that is unique, but there are kind of new and interesting ways that FSC provides companies to be able to mitigate some of the issues with species protection and their habitat protection.
Speaker 4:Yeah, monica, it must be some of the difficulties. I would find that, for example, to make a choice between moose and caribou, which have a tendency to occupy a lot of the same areas. However, forest practices for both are very, very different, as you mentioned about access, and a lot of caribou prefer they have undisturbed areas for large periods of time to allow lichens and the feed that they feed on to mature enough to be able to consume, whereas a moose mosaic is very different. It's kind of a patchwork. So how does FSC decide whether it's a moose mosaic, decide whether it's a moose mosaic? Because I know I recently as yesterday, saw indications about large concerns about the decrease in the moose population in Northwestern Ontario, which guess what where a lot of the caribou are. So how does FSC determine that it make decisions between moose and caribou, or do they, or how do they work?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean I would say that we don't directly choose between moose or caribou. I mean it's rather, you know, FSC Canada's standards are designed to address species at risk. We also look at ecological values as well as cultural priorities within a specific forest landscape, and so you know, for example, with caribou, we certainly know it's listed as threatened under the Federal Species Act, and with moose, it's also ecologically important and culturally significant, but they're not always listed generally at risk, and so forestry practices will need to decide, you know, based on their landscape, what is in line with the law as designated. And then also you know what is the best for the forest health, and caribou being such an indicator species, they also indicate the health of the forest as well, and so I would say that we don't tell you specifically. This is your hierarchy of animals that you're protecting, but it really depends on the landscape level planning and designated approaches that the forest management companies prioritize as well right?
Speaker 4:yeah, I know. Yeah, because different ministry in different offices handle it each differently, quite a bit different, and and some were upset someone. Well, no matter what you do, you're going to upset somebody all the time, but you have to make decisions on the best interest of all the uh, all the players in uh that are in the area that are dealing with those things. Yeah, so, monica, can you tell me um municipalities? You said they have certifications as well.
Speaker 5:Uh, yes, so, um, I mentioned there most of the municipalities I know of mostly fall under this.
Speaker 5:Uh, what this group certificate I was telling you about?
Speaker 5:So they're considered community forests but yes, they certainly can get certified and what they'll do is they're doing the same thing a forest management company does, which is they take the FSC, know, mitigate or adopt their forest management practices according to what our standard says, and then they can get their certificate.
Speaker 5:One example was the town of Oakville. They received certification for I believe it was around it was quite a few I want to say around 200 woodland properties. It was quite a few, I want to say around 200 woodland properties, and that's part of the town's efforts to combat the emerald ash borer which has been implicating their regional ash trees. But then also to be able to say that you know forest management companies but it's kind of the credibility behind us is also the environmental groups and the indigenous peoples as well as labor groups and social folks who are behind FSC that then the city of Oakville or the town of Oakville can say we've met this international criteria. We can now tell you that we are certainly managing our forest to be more responsible, whether they're actually getting economic benefit from it. I haven't had the chance to ask them so I don't know, but they're certainly doing it for forest management practices.
Speaker 4:I just know in my own municipality of Oshawa I see a lot of non-indigenous species being planted by the municipality in a lot of areas non-indigenous species being planted by the municipality in a lot of areas and I wonder how those impact, whether it's, you know, a Norway maple or some of the other tree species you don't normally see in a lot of this part of the country that are now being brought in by the municipalities and I didn't know how that played out, whether that affected some of their certifications or not.
Speaker 5:I mean it would if the city of Oshawa was certified. I'm sure they might have to look at that again. But you know, as I said, most of our, when you're doing a restoration effort, you certainly have to look at trying to restore the land to what it once was, and if those species are not typical for that area, then you have to ask well, why. I mean, this is kind of an interesting question because it does link to the you know, the conversations around climate change. We look at our forests as you know, it once was this and so we should strive to go back and make it what it was.
Speaker 5:But eventually, you know, in the future, this is kind of a probing question to say, well, we don't know what's going to happen. You know we've seen climate change dramatically changing our landscapes. We need to plant different types of tree species that are maybe more fire resistant or climate resistant, so that our forests have a better chance of surviving. But then, of course, we have to ask ourselves, well, what does that actually mean and what are we going to actually be then planting? I think that's a very much a future conversation that I think a lot of people have on their minds, and whether our forests are actually going to be climate resilient in the future as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's exactly it. I look at some of the trees that are planting and I wonder why they put that in and I don't. It always makes me wonder and I don't know. But some of the certainly some of the trees I see are not what I would consider would be indigenous to the areas at all. But each of those foresters all have a different idea and how things should play out and they move forward as they see fit yeah, absolutely, absolutely so anything else you can tell us then, monica, about, about FSC.
Speaker 5:I mean, I could spend hours telling you about FSC, but maybe I can tell you some really interesting work that we're doing on a global level as well. You know we're looking at utilizing technology. I think technology has been a really interesting topic lately, especially when you know our society is now moving into things like we're using AI and we're using all of this technology for fun on social media, but then also we're using it for practical, you know, revolutionary things in our worlds, and I think FSC has been really testing things out in a unique way. So one of the things we've there's three things that we're doing right now. One is around traceability, and so I mentioned you know we trace products from the forest to the retailer, and how do you do that? You know we've kind of been this old school paper-based system for a long time because it works across the world for diversity of companies. Could we be using technology like the power of blockchain to really look at revolutionizing material traceability and trade compliance with high-risk supply chains? So imagine you'd never have to guess anymore like, where did this actually come from? These are types of systems that would be able to do traceability while still keeping information protected and then actually be able to understand. Yes, in fact, we now know exactly where this came from. We have a guarantee behind it. So it's kind of looking at technology in a different way for compliance, and this type of thing will also be super useful for things like the European regulation that's come out around the EUDR.
Speaker 5:So it's the European Regulation on Deforestation, and what they're asking for is any products that are sent to Europe must, in fact, not come from a deforested or degraded site. Now, when you think about that, you're like Europe, that's very ambitious. How are you going to prove that this is exactly it? We've spent the last year, maybe year and a half, looking at well, how would we meet that? Because products from Canada and from other parts of the world go into Europe that are all forest-based, and if we needed to prove that, technology is something we have to look at.
Speaker 5:So we're now you know, we've actually just kind of did a soft launch of our tool called FSC Trace and we're looking at this exact blockchain technology so that, when your product ends up in Europe, the European Commission, who verifies that the product came from where you say it is our technology could help actually inform the. I forgot what they're exactly called, but essentially they're like customs authorities to say yes, this product is FSC certified, it meets this criteria and here's all the paperwork that you need behind it. So it's solutions for supply chains, but also solutions for forest companies to be able to say you know, we have to tell you exactly the plot of land that our product was harvested and submitted to Europe. Well, we can help with that as a facility.
Speaker 4:Yeah, interesting, yeah, very interesting. Well, monica, I can tell you that one of the things that I've always said is that so long as the forest continues to have value, it will continue to be a forest. And I know that when I was in, I wasn't the minister, but afterwards, when I was opposition critic, I saw from the cattle industry who wanted access to large tracts of forest to be able to clear, cut all those areas in order to be able to grow grass to graze the cattle in. And I met with Jamie Lim, who was the president of the Ontario Forest Industries Association at the time, and brought that to her attention. That, look, these other industries are now looking at trying to find value. But, as I mentioned to her, so long as the forest continues to have value, and if it's, the local municipalities are looking to be able to hire people to work in their forests, to run the mills, to deliver the trees, to cut and harvest the trees in a sustainable fashion, they'll continue to do so.
Speaker 5:But it's organizations like yours, that fsc, that that helps to make sure that those forests are being dealt with in a proper way absolutely, especially because around the world I mean, you know, fsc has been around for 30 years, but in 30 years we haven't certified the entire world.
Speaker 5:So there is still harm and deforestation and degradation happening in many different places and that still comes back down to well, then what do we need to help mitigate it? And so organizations like the FSC have a requirement that says you know, you have to demonstrate that you're not converting natural forest to plantations or other land uses like agriculture. And that's where you know we're seeing the most ecosystems are being harmed because we have people, you know, we have imagery showcasing a forest that's not certified, that's been kind of just blown over or torn down because they need us for agricultural space, and that's not what we're here for. I mean, as I said when we started this conversation, I said our mandate is really to keep forests for all and forever, and that's what we're trying to do is prevent that deforestation from happening.
Speaker 4:Yes. So, monica, how can other people find out more information about FSC or yourself, and where can they reach out to get more details?
Speaker 5:Absolutely. We're on all social media channels, so you can always just look up FSC Canada or FSC, our international office as well as well. You have our website that's a Canadian one is cafscorg, or, if you'd like to go to the international website even simpler, it's fscorg and I think one of the key places people will see it. I always say this you know you may not know what fsc is now, but now that you've learned a little bit about it, you'll look for our logo. It looks like a check mark and a tree and it says fsc underneath it.
Speaker 5:And when you're out shopping in your local stores, especially here in canada, you know you can turn over any of your mail that you get in the post. Or you know, look in your grocery stores and you will start seeing it everywhere. And so I like to tell people about that. To look for that logo, because really that's ultimately you're sending a message back through the supply chain, just like the original founders of FSC wanted for consumers like you and me and people who are listening to say all right, that means it's come from a responsibly managed forest and I'm going to choose that product because I want to know where my products are coming from and I want to make sure I'm contributing back to to you know, the forest itself, and so that's one way to continuously look for.
Speaker 5:It is to look for that check tree logo. And then, of course, you know, feel free to learn more. We do so much as an organization. We've only covered just a slight tip of it today. Visit our website. Look at some of the great videos and stories we have online. Some of the stories I mentioned today are also published on our website, so feel free to explore and learn more.
Speaker 4:Yes, thanks very much, Monica. We appreciate that. I know we've had other organizations like the Woodlot Association on, or Forest Planners on as well, to talk about forests and how to manage them properly, and certainly this is a little bit something different about, so people can learn about the Forest Stewardship Council and gain some more information about how things happen out there under the canopy. Absolutely Okay, thanks very much, monica. I really appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 5:Wonderful. Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody. I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's Favorite Fishing Show, but now we're hosting a podcast that's right. Every Thursday, Ange and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm, Now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know, there's going to be a lot of fishing.
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Speaker 1:We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes, All the other guys would go golfing Me and Garth and Turk and all the Russians would go fishing To scientists.
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