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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 97: Once You See It, You Can't Unsee It - Ontario's Battle with Invasive Phragmites
Have you ever noticed those tall, feathery grasses swaying in the wind along roadsides and shorelines? What looks beautiful might actually be one of Ontario's most destructive invasive species. This eye-opening conversation with Derissa Vincentini from the Ontario Invasive Species Centre reveals the silent threat of Phragmites australis, an aggressive European reed that's rapidly transforming our wetlands and costing the province $100 million annually.
Derissa, the Northern Ontario Regional Coordinator for the Ontario Phragmites Action Program, breaks down why this seemingly innocuous plant creates environmental havoc. Growing up to five meters tall in dense monocultures, Phragmites outcompetes native vegetation, alters hydrology, blocks shoreline access, and creates serious fire hazards. Most concerningly, it's displacing ecologically crucial plants like wild rice and threatening species-at-risk like Ontario's turtles by destroying their habitat.
The conversation delves into the fascinating science behind how Phragmites spreads—primarily through underground rhizomes rather than seeds—and the various control methods being deployed across the province. From specialized amphibious equipment to community volunteer efforts, we explore the $11 million program working to coordinate a landscape-level response to this invasive threat. Success stories from Long Point and Turkey Point demonstrate that with proper management, we can reclaim our wetlands and shorelines.
Whether you're a property owner concerned about waterfront values, an outdoor enthusiast noticing changes in familiar landscapes, or simply someone who cares about Ontario's ecosystems, this episode provides critical knowledge about identifying and addressing one of our most significant environmental challenges. As Derissa aptly puts it, "Once you see it, you can't unsee it."
Hi everybody. I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's Favorite Fishing Show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right Every Thursday, ang and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm, now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 4:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors From athletes.
Speaker 3:All the other guys would go golfing Me and Garth and Turk and all the Russians would go fishing To scientists.
Speaker 4:But now that we're reforesting- and all that, it's the perfect transmission environment for life.
Speaker 5:To chefs If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 1:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are. Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. Find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 6:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Well, I hope everyone's having a great day and, as always, you know what to do. If you got any questions or want to see any shows or hear any shows, let us know. We'll do what we can to get them out. And, as always, we thank our listeners throughout Canada, the States, all around the world and really appreciate that and of course, that's what makes it happen is our listeners. So any questions or comments or anything like that, we'd be more than happy to do what we can for you. Now I got to tell you I was out with my chocolate lab again this morning Anson Gunner, same as usual, and the reishi should be. It looks like it's going to be reishi the mushroom. It's a little bit early that I'm monitoring. It's growing on hemlock but it hasn't given all the traditional reishi indicators. It's still kind of a oh the shame of it. It's kind of a dome shape so far, but it hasn't panned out quite yet. I've got to give it some time.
Speaker 6:But this is the time of year that spruce sprigs are very prevalent and they are great. I've already taken out. Oh, I had the pastor out. We played a round of golf the other day and we're walking by and I grabbed a spruce sprig off a tree and I ate it and he looked at me like what are you doing? I said, try it. Oh, it wasn't quite that bad. He was quite surprised. And the spruce sprigs.
Speaker 6:There's a number of things you can do with spruce sprigs. What I do with spruce sprigs is I'll consume them straight out, I'll pick them and let them when I do talks about them high in vitamin C. You know the same old, same old that when Europeans first came over this is what they use to get rid of scurvy and stuff like that. But if you look at them, they're a very, very kind of a light green color and very soft and pliable when they first come out. And usually we pick a white spruce or a black spruce, it's not a problem, even blue spruce if you can find it, it's not a problem to pick. And then there's a couple of ways. I've taken a few sprigs and I've put them in like a 500-milliliter water bottle, left them overnight and it's a really refreshing, very citrusy kind of taste to it in a bottle of water. And also we make a spruce sprig honey.
Speaker 6:Now, a buddy of mine, roley, is a German background and they make this spruce sprig honey and what we do is we fill a pot with spruce sprigs and then, once it's full, then we fill it with water and then we boil that for about I did it about 40 minutes, he said 20, but I did it 40 and then you strain out all the spruce sprigs. Now the boiling, and it's a slow boil, it's not a rolling boil, it's just a slow boil. It's not a rolling boil, it's just a slow boil. It extracts the material out that. And then what we did was he told me to mix it about one to one with a sugar kind of and I guess you could use honey or you could use maple syrup and you mix it with that until it's really thick and then you boil it down until it's got a honey consistency. And I got to tell you I've got some jars of spruce sprig honey that have been there for about eight years and it just lasts forever in a day seems to, at least with us.
Speaker 6:I let people try it. They're quite shocked at it. Very tasty and high in vitamin C, plus a lot of other nutrients as well. That's very good for people. Not only that, but I come out, I get back and my bird feeder's cleaned out. I just filled this thing yesterday. What's going on?
Speaker 6:Anyways, I turn around. Sure enough, chipmunks at the feeder take it and they just kind of rip through the seeds to get to the sunflower seeds and throw everything all over the ground, eliminating the chance. So what do I do? Same as usual. I go get a jar, my jar of Vaseline, and I grease the pole the feeder's hanging from and they can't climb the pole and that way it keeps the chipmunks or the squirrels. We have more problems with squirrels, black squirrels and red squirrels than we do with chipmunks, but it happened to be the chipmunk. I saw up the pole this time and they try to go up the pole. When it's a grease pole with Vaseline they kind of slide back down and they give up. So that way I can make sure that the birds that we try to attract them. We got quite a few of varios and warblers and canaries and goldfinches as well coming to the feeders now, which we kind of enjoy watching.
Speaker 6:But today we have something a little bit different. It's something I'm seeing everywhere and it's just like I never really noticed it until I actually somebody pointed out to me, and I was actually tom warden, who used to be the president of ducks unlimited, canada, and they have a spot down turkey point and they had this major problem with something called phragmites. And we have Darissa Vincentini from the Ontario Invasive Species Centre joining us. Well, darissa, we really appreciate you coming on and talking about Phragmites. So tell us a bit about yourself, tell us about your background. First of all, darissa.
Speaker 7:Sure, yeah, so I live in Sault Ste Marie, ontario. I was kind of born and raised and left for two years to attend university but came back and actually moved back to the university here in Sault Ste Marie. So I graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Biology with a certificate in Geomatics at Algoma University, and I've worked as a forest research technician for about six years, both with the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources as well as Natural Resources Canada, before starting with the Invasive Species Centre where I am now. I started as a community science coordinator for the last four years and just recently moved into this new role as the Northern Ontario Regional Coordinator for our Ontario Phragmites Action Program. So that just started this year and I'm really excited to talk about Phragmites.
Speaker 6:Now, where did you go to school?
Speaker 7:So I started at University of Ottawa in the Environmental Science Program, took a liking to GIS and mapping, and so I was going to transfer into a general biology program that would allow me to do a minor or a certificate, and all of that was offered back home. So I decided to move home and continue my education at Oklahoma University.
Speaker 6:Okay, and what's geomatics?
Speaker 7:Geomatics is like the study of mapping, so using GIS or geographic information systems to explore the world around you. Basically, you can use it in healthcare, in politics, in anthropology, you can use it in the environment. Of course, that's kind of more of an obvious one, I think. But yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 6:So, Drissa, how do you use it in healthcare? How is geomatics used in healthcare?
Speaker 7:It really depends on what questions you're asking. So you can use it to identify, maybe, how close the majority of populations are to hospitals. You can use it to identify routes for ambulance drivers and first responders. You can use it to identify, maybe, demographics that might be more Yep exactly, or even like a long time example from very, very early days is like if there's an outbreak of a certain bacteria, like cholera for example, you might be able to map that back to a central point of contamination in water.
Speaker 6:Now do a lot of agencies, such as hospitals, utilize geomatics.
Speaker 7:I don't know, to be honest.
Speaker 6:Neither do I. That's why I'm asking, because it's like I don't really know. Well, I know about geomatics, where it's utilized in the Ministry of Natural Resources, having been the minister, and a lot of the things that take place there, but I had not really heard about it being utilized elsewhere, such as in hospitals and politically and things along those lines. So I thought, gee, I never heard about that. But, now it's the person to talk to.
Speaker 7:I don't know how many hospitals might be taking advantage of that, or if it's more, maybe from like a research standpoint looking into health care, but it certainly has applications in everything that we do as humans.
Speaker 6:Well, I got to tell you we've got. We spend a lot of time in the Sioux. I've got a lot of relatives up there. My dad was born in the Sioux, st Marie, just off second line, so we know it well. And and every time we get up we got to spend some time at Wacky Wings. Oh yeah, that's a plug for them and usually we get in in the fall when we're doing some chaga hunting up. That way we will come in on a usually on a monday night or a thursday night for wacky wings night in the sioux, because that's when the football games are on. So I bring my sons up and we enjoy watching some nfl games up in the sioux on that. Plus they got some great stuff up there. I know the sioux well but it's changing quite a bit, is it not?
Speaker 7:Oh, absolutely, and I would say it's a good thing. We're growing, we have a lot of different activities and I've seen a lot of good expansions and development and investment back into the city and a strong support local movement and it's really been, it's really been great to see uh I'm, I love living here, especially because of the connection to nature oh, yeah, yeah, it's not far away and I, I know my, my uncles and now my cousins camp uh up ranger lake roadway.
Speaker 6:Uh, certainly spend a lot of time up that way and enjoy the, the fishing and the activities that take place up there all the time, and it's just great to see. And you know it's last fall we were up and there was a new section they were putting in. Some the forestry companies were doing a a big cut I can't remember it was a thousand hectares or something like that and they're putting in roads and it was kind of interesting that I found that what they were doing with those roads was they cut the new roads in and it's a lot of gravel up there. So when they're the ground it's pretty easy to find a lot of gravel. So you hit a lot of gravel, not a problem.
Speaker 6:But they had blocked off with huge boulders so cars couldn't drive, vehicles couldn't drive into this new road section. I wonder what are they doing that for? Well, it had been raining quite a bit so they wanted it to dry out with the sun to get exposed, to make sure that these new roads so that the forest country companies could access the forest to be able to harvest whichever they were harvesting at the time, which is quite a bit of stuff, to be honest, and to dry the roads out to make sure that new vehicles weren't coming in and putting ruts in the roads before I had a chance to dry out, which was kind of interesting.
Speaker 7:Yeah, that makes sense. I never even would have thought of that.
Speaker 6:Yeah, neither did I, until I spoke to them and asked them why they blocked it off. They told us that. But you know, the one thing is because there used to be a lot of forest industries in the Sioux Great Lakes pulp and paper which that building there in the Sioux is kind of amazing to see. I don't know if you've ever been in it or not. It's kind of that. It's almost like a red sandstone down by the bridge.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I haven't been in. So there's the two buildings and there is the canal district or the mill, like the, that's been redeveloped and used and I've been in there. That's where there's a couple of restaurants and an event space venue within there and everything. But then there's the other one that I don't think is open to the public at all because it's decommissioned.
Speaker 6:Oh, that's too bad, because that would be a great spot for it's like right on the water, it's a great. I imagine they could open it up to, you know, to make restaurant facilities in that area, just by, you know, just north of City Hall, there. And yeah, that red brick, it was amazing, the color of it is. It kind of stands out significantly. But inside and the history inside they had the old Grand Trunk Railroad map from when it was established along northern ontario and they showed all the the rooting for that, which I found amazing.
Speaker 6:But when I saw it was closed and great lakes, pulpit and paper pulled out of there, I was kind of disappointed and always wondered what would happen there.
Speaker 6:And I know when I was minister, there's huge numbers of individuals that fish along the pier right there and I tried to put a fish cleaning station in there for the city through the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund. Yeah, but the problem was they couldn't get running water to be able to utilize the facility. It would be like a washroom fish cleaning station right there, right To make it a lot easier for a lot of people and have it effectively done, because there's a number of municipalities that have that and it really, really helps promote a lot of the fishing, and the fishing that takes place right there is. It's fairly significant because you get a lot of a lot of different species, even atlantic salmon that'll come up along those rapids there, and a lot of fly fishermen and other anglers as well. So it was a bit of an economic stimulus that I tried but didn't work out because they couldn't get running water to the location but that that's another story.
Speaker 6:So tell us about Phragmites. Okay, first of all, let people know what we're talking about. What is Phragmites, and kind of give us some background.
Speaker 7:Yeah for sure. So Phragmites is a perennial grass, so it's in the Poaceae family. It is an invasive species here in Ontario and Canada and it's native to Europe. So it's also commonly referred to as European common reed as well. So you might hear that it was likely introduced kind of more than once, like multiple times throughout the 1800s, as settlers are coming over and introduced, both intentionally and unintentionally, so accidentally brought over on contaminated soils and stuff, or just through horticultural trade. It's kind of a pretty looking grass. It grows quite tall, up to about five meters tall. It's got these really pronounced seed heads on them that make it like almost like the pompous grass that people use in ornamental arrangements. It has that similar feel to it, so it is kind of cool looking and pretty looking.
Speaker 6:Yeah, the seed head is kind of like a fluffy kind of like a feathery kind of fluffy feather kind of. You know those boas.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 6:They made it like that kind of a seed head right.
Speaker 7:Yeah, exactly. So that's, you know, one of the reasons why it might be desirable. But as an invasive species, you know it causes a lot of negative impacts as well. So it typically will grow unchecked. It doesn't have any competitors or it doesn't have defense mechanisms. Our native species don't have defense mechanisms to kind of combat it. It doesn't have any predators that are going to eat it like it does back in Europe in its native range, where it had millennia to grow and adapt with alongside those species that it has over there. So it goes unchecked. It grows really rapidly, reproduces really quickly, and then that can cause a bunch of negative impacts to our economy, society and our environment.
Speaker 6:So now, what would eat this in Europe that is not available here?
Speaker 7:Yeah, there's a couple moth species that we are looking into for biological control. Um, I don't know for sure, but I assume that there's probably some herbivore mammals that also eat it. I just know a little bit more about the moths just because of the biological control program.
Speaker 6:Right, and you mentioned some of the impacts as well. Tell us about some of the impacts and how it's impacting society.
Speaker 7:Oh, absolutely so. One of the ways is I mentioned that it can grow quite tall, so about five meters tall. It also grows very, very, very dense, so it creates these monocultures. That's essentially just a wall that you can't see through and it really likes habitats like ditches, highway corridors and especially wet areas, so shorelines, wetlands and that type of thing. So when it's growing along the shoreline, that can impede your access to water, beaches, boat launches, so it might be more difficult to go swimming, to go fishing and just any sort of water recreation. It can impede your view of those shorelines. I mean, I don't know about you, but especially up here in Sault Ste Marie, there's tons of great views along the shorelines, like here on St Mary's River and Lake Superior and a lot of inland lakes. So you know, it would just, it would suck to like go up to a lake and you can't see anything, yeah, and that could actually decrease property values if you have a shoreline property as well, and because it likes ditches and highways, creating that wall of sight too. So that increases, you know, collisions. It impacts road safety.
Speaker 7:You know there's a number of different ways, one of the big ones that we are talking about now, especially the last. You know, two years ago we saw such a huge increase in wildfire instances but also in the severity of wildfires. Is these monocultures and severe density stalks and stands as they grow and then die. They stay standing and then new growth comes up in between and that's why it becomes so dense. But now you have such a high level of biomass dry biomass built up in that spot so that's very combustible. So that could be a pathway for increasing. You know the instances of wildfires is.
Speaker 7:You know, if someone flicks their cigarette butt out the window which I hope no one's doing that still, but if it happens, you know that could be an ignition and then that could start a wildfire, just because it hit exactly where Fragm's is, which is lining our highways in Southern Ontario.
Speaker 4:Back in 2016,. Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.
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Speaker 6:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, we've got Rob from Hamilton here, who's had some success with the Chaga cream. Rob, can you tell us about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've used it on blemishes, cuts, just basically all around healing Anything kind of blemish. It speeds it up really quick. Great, it speeds the healing process up really well. It leaves no marks and doesn't stain or smells okay.
Speaker 6:Okay, thanks, rob, appreciate that. You're welcome. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening Back to the episode.
Speaker 6:So, drabisa, some of these things that you mentioned now could it potentially be used in significant areas where turtle crossings take place, for example? So, and I know a lot of Ontario and when you're driving from Toronto to the Sioux, you're seeing a lot of turtle-proof fencing that people look and what the heck is that for? It's like only a couple feet tall two, three feet fall and very thick. Now, if this grows that dense, could it be utilized to deter turtles from crossing the road? Or have anybody even thought of something like that?
Speaker 7:You know what that's like. A great idea. Unfortunately, phragmites actually really likes the wetlands that turtles also like, so it wouldn't stop at just that fence line barrier. It would invade, you know, the entire wetland if given the opportunity. So by putting it in place across you know all the highways, like that, you would actually be giving it that opportunity to invade all those wetlands and areas where turtles are nesting and where they're living. So you know, turtles can't really move through it very well. It does impede their mobility. So you're right there.
Speaker 7:But that means that they're not going to have access to their own habitat either, and most, if not all, I believe, of the turtles in Ontario are considered species at risk in some level right now. So we certainly don't want to be adding to that impact. It changes the hydrology of the site. It transpires a lot quicker than our native plants, so it could dry up the site. It shades out the site too. So turtles are ectothermic. They really rely on basking in the sun for maintaining their body temperature, so it wouldn't allow for that. There's a number of ways that they actually negatively impact well many species at risk, but especially turtles.
Speaker 6:Yeah, so, and I know when I mentioned past president for Ducks Unlimited Canada, tom, they have an area down at Turkey Point that essentially Phragmites had taken over and that's what it was my discussion with him about that that inspired me to get on and talk about this. I mean, when people start to see it, then they'll see it all over the place. Now, and I pointed it out, as I mentioned, I was out with my pastor earlier in the program and talked about eating some spruce sprigs and I said now we're going to record this and what is that? And so I said well, there's some there, there's some there.
Speaker 7:There's some there.
Speaker 6:There's some there and it's just everywhere now.
Speaker 6:Absolutely One of the things that Tom had mentioned was that it had choked out all the wild rice in the area where they were, and so he had worked with NCC Nature Conservancy of Canada who came in and basically got rid of all the Phragmites and it's a rather large part of down on Lake Erie where they are I don't know the amount of the size of the land, but I'm positive it's well over 100 acres of it that they came in and got rid of it all and wild rice has been coming back now. So that's the kind of monocultural thing that you're doing and that'll chase out other plants like wild rice and cattails, bulrushes and things.
Speaker 7:Oh, absolutely, yes, it just creates. So monoculture means that it's not. There isn't any other species, plant species growing within it either. So, yeah, absolutely, it displaces our native species, like wild rice, which is, you know, not just important for the ecosystem and habitat for wildlife and everything, but also very culturally important and is an agriculture, food and things like that, right. So a number of layered impacts there.
Speaker 6:So, darissa, how would they get rid of all the phragmites and how did they, in large area like that, like a hundred acre swamp? What do they have to do in order to, to normalize it, to bring it back to the way it was?
Speaker 7:well, there's a number of different ways that you can manage phragmites. Um, typically, in a large area like that, you can use these large machines, um, that, essentially, it's almost like a mini tank amphibious tank that goes in the water and it cuts the stems below the water level and what that's doing is drowning the root system. Now, when you do that, though, you have to make sure that you collect all of that biomass that you cut, because it can actually reproduce and grow new stalks and stems from each node on the plant. So it's a huge operation to do it. You usually kind of take sections at a time, and it's multi-year operation, but clearly it can be successful. We know that it can be done.
Speaker 7:You can also use herbicide. There is one herbicide that is available in Ontario that can be used over water and two that can be used over land. So you know, you can take a multifaceted approach. You can say, okay, this area would be great for manual control. This area, you know, is a little bit more difficult. Let's use the chemical control. You can look at it from an integrated pest management standpoint. Right, you can also get volunteers involved. I mentioned the cutting to drown method, so if there's a sparser area. You can get volunteers out there with cane cutters and they are loppers and they can cut below that water level as well, which is, you know, great for building that community too.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I know, when Purple Loose Strife came in the second marsh, I took the family out and we did a lot of trying to pull the Purple Loose Strife out of the second marsh, which, to be perfectly honest, it was nice to do, nice to get people involved, but it was not successful. Just, it was not at the level level to. Even when we pulled it all out of the second marsh and with the groups that we had there, uh, and I brought my kids and my family and my wife and all that and we were all out there pulling um, it's still. If you go back to the second marsh now, guess what? You're gonna be finding quite a bit of purple loosestrife. But so the phragmites is it expanding? Is it mostly through seeds or birds collecting it and taking it to new locations? Or is it wind that's moving it around? Because I'm not sure. Are there birds that consume the seeds in the Phragmites?
Speaker 7:Well, it's a great question. So Phragmites actually spreads through three mechanisms. So it does spread by seed, although all of the thousands of seed heads that you see, or seeds in the seed heads that you see, wow that was a lot of Cs.
Speaker 7:You know they're not very viable, so you're going to have their low viability. So you're going to have some that are still viable and are able to reproduce, but some aren't. But their primary mechanism for spreading is through rhizomes, and then they can also spread through above ground stellones as well. So those are two mechanisms for it to continue spreading.
Speaker 6:Now we've had Bev DiLeonardo, a master gardener, on, who talked about rhizomes. Maybe you can, just so our listeners know what a rhizome is you can kind of give us a breakdown of what that is, because a lot of people listening to the program may not understand what a rhizome is.
Speaker 7:Sure, I mean coming down to like. The most basic definition is it's a piece of root that can produce a new shoot, so it doesn't have to be attached to an existing population. It doesn't have to be attached to an existing population. It doesn't need to be attached to an existing shoot. It can be fragmented or cut off or removed from the source and still produce a new shoot.
Speaker 6:Yeah, so when I was up this morning, I was checking my stinging nettle patch, which is basically rhizomes, and I think in the past we described it as basically stems that grow underground that produce new shoots. Yeah, yeah, and the stinging nettle patch that I was at today that's how it's expanded slowly, is through rhizomes and so, yeah, so this is the way it's mostly growing, but it seems to be just about every little bit of swampy area that's out there. Now it's just taking over.
Speaker 7:Yeah, so I mean. So those are the three ways that phragmites can establish and spread across the landscape. But the mechanisms or the vectors for that spread it could be nature, like you were mentioning. You know wind can't strong winds especially, you know, can spread those seeds. Water too, especially if it's on shorelines, like Lake Huron, georgian Bay for example. If there's strong winds and waves coming up, then that could disrupt and disturb that soil, moving some of those rhizomes and stoloms. And it could be animals too, you know they can collect the seeds on them, they can move them just by brushing up against them.
Speaker 7:But really the main mechanism of spread through North America is through human activity, both recreation you know average shows like UNI but also through industry. So there's, you know, anytime you're moving along the landscape there's a potential for bringing things with you, whether that's mud and debris on your boots or your ATVs, on tires of your vehicles or on your boat, you know, moving actual soil or plant material as well. We've seen instances where hunters aren't aware of what that species that they're using for blinds are, so they'll use Phragmites stalks for their blinds. I mentioned the ornamental use as decoration as well earlier. So those are kind of ways that as individuals we might unintentionally contribute to the spread. But that also means by knowing that that you can prevent doing that.
Speaker 7:And then there's the industry side as well, so through equipment and heavy machinery, through construction or movement of contaminated soils and aggregates for construction. So those are two big ones. And why we see it a lot on ditches and roadways and things like that is before we knew what to do, how to do and what it was. You know we were unintentionally spreading it through that mechanism. And then improper management. So if you're going along the roadway and doing veg management then you're likely mowing a lot and that could also continue its spread.
Speaker 6:So and I imagine, because it grows so tall and when you see it you're always seeing it blowing in the wind that a lot of the wind would. It's kind of like it's always best to plant your corn in squares because it's wind pollinated a large percentage of corn crops. I see a lot of people have two rows and wonder why they don't get much corn. If they take that same area and plant it in a square, a lot of wind pollination takes place, but I would imagine the wind significantly moves a lot of it around. But, like you said, a lot of the seed does not germinate in order to produce new groups. But when you get high plants like that and the way it looks like it's blowing in the wind, I would imagine that plays a significant factor in moving it around and the way it looks like it's blowing in the wind.
Speaker 7:I would imagine that plays a significant factor in moving it around. Yeah, it definitely could play a factor, but, like I mentioned, it doesn't reproduce by seeds as much as it reproduces by rhizomes, right yeah. At least here in North America.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it's just kind of surprising. I'm seeing it everywhere, now that Tom pointed it out, and everywhere I go and everybody I mentioned it to, it's just like this appears to be a problem. So how much of a problem is it and how are we going to get control of it? Is it going to take over a lot of our wetlands and dry them up?
Speaker 7:essentially, you know what? That's a great question. So we know through a survey, that phragmites is estimated to cost Ontario $100 million annually. So we know that it's a severe problem and this is ongoing. But we've also seen success stories, like at Long Point and Turkey Point right. So we know that something can be done to manage this species. So we do have a program it's called the Ontario Phragmites Action Program that addresses the phragmites situation through coordination and collaboration. There's been a lot of wonderful work happening for a long time by community groups and municipalities, like you've even mentioned. But we're trying to make that effort go a lot further by breaking out of those silos and moving towards that landscape level kind of management. So the Ministry of Natural Resources invested $11 million over three years to the Invasive Species Centre, as well as our partners at Nature Conservancy of Canada, to kind of co-deliver this program, and we're really excited about it. Kind of co-deliver this program and we're really excited about it.
Speaker 6:So is there funds that municipalities are able to apply for to assist them in dealing with it?
Speaker 7:Yes, absolutely so. We have funding programs. We also have genetic testing. So one thing that I didn't mention is that there is a native, relative and subspecies of Phragmites that looks very similar. They do have characteristic differences, but they also overlap as well.
Speaker 7:So if you had like two specimens that were typical side by side, you'd be able to tell the difference. But then sometimes, depending on site conditions, nutrient levels, what have you? They start to exhibit characteristics of each other almost, and it's if you were so. It's like a spectrum. So sometimes in the in the middle, you could get them confused quite easily, especially the more north you go. So in northern ontario, native and invasive phragmites look a lot more similar. So we have genetic testing that can help with that, so that you're making sure that your money, time and effort is going towards managing the undesirable invasive phragmites instead of the desirable native phragmites. Activities monitoring, you know, working through whether it's permits or clean equipment, protocols, things like that, and really working to fill the gaps that are identified from the on-the-ground partners, such as municipalities, conservation authorities, indigenous communities, ngos, industry. You know everybody has a role to play right.
Speaker 6:Yeah, so, jerissa, when a municipality gets involved, they make application for fundings, and how typically would a municipality utilize that funds to manage it? Are they looking for volunteer groups, are they buying equipment or are they just hiring staff to deal with it? Or typically, maybe you can kind of enlighten us.
Speaker 7:Yeah. So I mean all of the above. I would say the funding can go towards capital equipment, it can go towards staff funding, it can go towards hiring contractors, it can go towards organizing community events. It is primarily focused on action towards management and monitoring of invasive Phragmites. So a little less focus on the outreach and education component, just because we feel like we've done a lot of that. So we really want to make sure that we're packing that punch and getting to the management side of things.
Speaker 7:One of the ways that we're kind of doing this and on the landscape is because we know Freg knows no boundaries, right? So it impacts all of us. So we create regional and local management working groups, which we call FregMighty's management areas, and invite all of those different groups so municipalities, conservation authorities, indigenous communities etc to the table to talk about that kind of more holistic approach to monitoring, management and prevention. So then municipalities might be applying on their own. We do have it open to everyone. But if you're working in a group like that, then they're working together and they could apply together. And then if you're working on it, you're clearing it out on a roadway, then you're going to, you're going to manage that piece. That's in the ditch, but you're also going to be able to manage, you know, onto the property and behind that maybe is owned by the university or you know, work with the landowner to manage that property and behind so that it's not going to reestablish and reinvade right.
Speaker 6:Right, so now are Mississippi Valley supplying directly to Invasive Species Center, or where do they make application for that?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so our fund is called the Invasive Phragmites Control Fund and you can find it on the Ontario Phragmites Action Program website. You can also find it through the Invasive Species Centre's website as well, but the Ontario Phragmites Action Program really outlines all of the different things that we offer, including the funding, so that would be the best place to find more information. It's funding all the way up to $50,000 per individual applicant, I believe, although that might change year over year depending on what's available, although that might change year over year depending on what's available and it is closed currently for this season, but we will be looking to reopen it later in the year.
Speaker 6:Okay, so it's something that might be available this year still.
Speaker 7:So it would be available for next year's management or activities kind of thing. So you would apply that later this year, early next calendar season, for next growing season management Right.
Speaker 6:Okay. Okay. So now are groups and organizations like Ducks Unlimited getting involved? Because I know there was a program that I worked with Areas of Concern on the Great Lakes where Norm Sterling, when he was Minister of the Environment and established a fund to clean up a lot of these areas and, to be honest, the bureaucracy within the ministry when the minister had moved on they were kind of like all right. So he established a I can't think it was a $5 million or $7 million fund, something along that way, to assist in cleaning up the AOC's areas of concern. But once the minister moved on out of that ministry they just kind of sat idle Until such time.
Speaker 6:I happened to meet the coordinator who was in charge of it and he says oh yeah, what do you do? And I says, well, I manage this fund. And I said what do you do? Well, he says we're not getting any work. I said, really tell me about your work. So he told me and I said have you ever talked to groups like Ducks Unlimited? And no, why would I do that? Well, because DU has a matching fund basis. So whatever funds were available there, they bring up Ducks Unlimited money from the states to help clean up a lot of these areas and help out. And guess what? We, uh, doubled the funding for it through du partnerships and cleaned up a lot more areas and got very active and worked out very well. Is it something like this that potentially might be available as well?
Speaker 7:or have you looked at that? That's wonderful, um. We do work closely with ducks, unlimited um in ontario. We we have ontario kind of sectioned into four regions, so I work on the Northern Ontario region, there's Southwest, there's Central, but our Ducks partner is the Eastern Ontario regional coordinator, um, and then they also work on our biological control program to see if that is something that we're able to kind of roll out across the province as well. So they work closely with the researchers on that. But I'm not sure in terms of the funding. That's something I can bring back to the team and discuss.
Speaker 6:Yeah, because it'd be a great way to double the amount of funds that are available. And from the amount of fragmenties that I'm seeing around, I'm like this is starting to. You know, if it hadn't been for Tom, I wouldn't even thought about it. I just looked by and, oh, that looks nice, you know the, the way, those tall grass, kind of blown in the wind, the way it was. And now, and they mentioned it to me and I realized, you know, we got a problem here, let's talk about it.
Speaker 7:That's why you're on. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
Speaker 6:Well, yeah, it's, it's surprising and, and, and the amount of impact that it's having. So, uh, darissa, what kind of depths of water does it grow in in? Like, as you mentioned, it cleans up a lot of swamps and things like that. Is there a depth that'll stop growing or producing? It's kind of like, I don't know, wild rice.
Speaker 7:There's certain depths that work well and don't work well for it yeah, you know there is, but I don't know that number off the top of my head. But you will find it more on shorelines rather than in like deep basins. You know it caps out at how tall it can grow to access light and oxygen, so I just don't know what the depth is.
Speaker 6:Okay, offhand yeah, and the reason I think I'm leading to something I had the Royal Botanical Gardens on that was dealing with a carp control process where they actually were using old Christmas trees to kind of block off areas to stop carp from coming in. And to me I'm wondering, hmm, is this another thing that could be utilized in that area? But what are the kind of depths that it would work if it had effect? But you want to make sure it's done correctly. But those are for the experts like you to determine.
Speaker 7:Yeah, you know it's a tricky situation because it would take a long time to develop some sort of protocol to ensure that it's not spreading further, and you've got to think of what the risks versus reward or benefits are. So, you know, we are really trying to focus on management, reduction in populations, managing the impacts of it. In some areas, certainly, eradication is feasible. Still, so, you know, depending on the site, those are the types of goals that we have. Those are the types of goals that we have, thinking about applications for the species increases, risk for further spread and contributing to those negative impacts that we're trying to avoid as well. Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 6:So roughly. How many municipalities took advantage of the program to get involved last year? Any idea on something like that?
Speaker 7:Oh, I do or did have an idea. I don't remember the number off the top of my head, but it was quite a few. It was like close to, if not above, 100 municipalities that were involved. Whether or not they received funding, they were involved in some way.
Speaker 6:Okay, no, I just wondered because sometimes we hear about these programs and you know one or two municipalities end up being successful in working with it, but if you know you get 100 municipalities, that's significant. And so it's speaking to the concern raised about this, particularly in a lot of, I guess, cottage country where they have a lot of impacts and you talk about shorelines and decreasing values and what the impact will be there.
Speaker 7:Absolutely no. We're seeing a great, you know, interest from municipalities. They're really on the front lines of these things. They've been dealing with phragmites for a long time, you know, whether it was from this management standpoint of managing the plant or if it was just simply managing the roadways and, you know, protecting sightline visions and things like that. So they're always on the front lines of invasive species introductions and establishment. So they're one of our key, you know, audiences that we're targeting to work with and be able to, you know, provide them the means to manage effectively.
Speaker 6:Right, and what's the name of the program for municipalities? Again, or groups or organizations?
Speaker 7:Yeah, so the Invasive Phragmites Control Fund is the funding program.
Speaker 6:Okay, very good. So what's the next steps and how do we move forward? And so we're working with municipalities and groups and organizations to try and address it and what other steps are taking place or how can other people get involved and assist in trying to manage and deal with this.
Speaker 7:I would say the first step is visiting the Ontario Phragmites Action website. It's just ontariophragmitesactionca and you know learning a bit about the program. I mentioned that we're kind of we separated the province into these regional areas, so if you're keen and interested in learning more about the program, you can reach out to your regional coordinator, which is outlined on the website. You know who is in charge of which area and that's so that we can also help connect folks who are wanting to work on Phragmites or already doing work on Phragmites to each other locally to really implement that landscape level management through that coordination and collaboration.
Speaker 6:So you are mentioned. You mentioned Long Point, turkey Point. There are getting some significant successes in managing it throughout in different areas, and this is something that we're hoping to move forward. Otherwise, we effectively could see a loss of a lot of our wetlands and things like that as well.
Speaker 7:Yeah, so the shorelines, especially our Great Lakes shorelines, those are key areas that we're trying to work on. I mentioned the Phragmites management areas and we're slowly kind of fitting in the puzzle pieces that we have a Phragmites management area across the shorelines, especially here on Erie Ontario lines, especially here on Erie Ontario. So those are ways that we're trying to mitigate that spread and impacts along our areas of concerns in the Great Lakes.
Speaker 6:All right. Well, darissa, I really appreciate you taking the time being on the program. Tell us again how do people get in touch with you to find out more details, or their area coordinator, or whereabouts can they go to find out more information on how to deal with Phragmites in the province of Ontario?
Speaker 7:Yeah, if you're looking for more information or to get in touch with your regional coordinator, just visit the Ontario Phragmites Action Program website and that's ontariophragmitesactionca. It's really easy to find us and that should have all the information that you need and if not, you reach out to your regional coordinator to find out what work's being done in your area.
Speaker 6:All right. Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate you taking the time and find it very informative and hopefully that it was just by chance talking to you, know mentioned Tom and that and I started looking and go. You know something? There's something to talk about here and give some people some insight, because I'm sure when they're driving down the road just like I was yesterday by heading up to Halliburton that seeing this all over the place and it's having a significant impact, Absolutely.
Speaker 7:Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 6:Well, thanks, teresa. I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us. Have a great day.
Speaker 7:Thanks, marissa, I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us. Have a great day.
Speaker 6:Thanks you as well. Yeah, and just something a little bit different of things that are happening out there under the canopy.
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