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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 98: The Art of Efficient Wood Burning
The crackling warmth of a wood fire speaks to something primal in us all, but modern wood heating has evolved far beyond the smoky, inefficient fireplaces of yesteryear. In this revealing conversation with Nick Malcolm, fourth-generation fireplace expert and owner of Fire Away Fireplace and Barbecue, host Jerry Ouellette uncovers why wood heating is experiencing a remarkable resurgence after years of declining interest.
Malcolm reveals that wood-burning appliances now represent 60% of his business across four retail locations, with many buyers being 30-40 year olds seeking to recreate the cozy experiences of their childhood. But today's wood heating technology offers far more than nostalgia – modern EPA-certified inserts and stoves operate at approximately 85% efficiency compared to the paltry 5-10% of traditional open fireplaces.
This efficiency translates to dramatic fuel savings. What might require 3-5 bush cords in an open fireplace can be accomplished with just 2 bush cords in a modern insert. Malcolm dives deep into proper wood seasoning techniques, explaining that wood should ideally season for a full year with 12-14% moisture content for optimal burning. He shares which hardwoods burn best (oak, maple, hickory, ash) and how to maximize burn times through proper loading techniques.
Particularly fascinating is Malcolm's explanation of secondary combustion systems that re-burn smoke and gases before they exit the chimney, dramatically reducing emissions. A properly functioning wood stove should emit primarily water vapor rather than heavy smoke – a visible indicator of clean burning.
Whether you're considering wood heat for the first time, looking to upgrade an existing system, or simply curious about this traditional heating method's modern renaissance, this episode offers invaluable insights from one of Ontario's most knowledgeable hearth experts. The rising costs of conventional heating have many homeowners reconsidering wood, and Malcolm's expertise provides a perfect primer for navigating this warming trend.
How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, steve Nitzwicky, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people, share their stories of our trials, tribulations and inspirations, learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.
Speaker 2:Meanwhile we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass and we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing show.
Speaker 1:My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that's might be for more fishing than it was punching you so confidently, you said hey, pat have you ever eaten a drum? Find Diaries of a Lodge Owner now on Spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 5:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. But they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. To live their lives under the canopy. Okay, as always, we want to thank all our listeners throughout Ontario and across Canada and, of course, the states and all around the world Switzerland, ghana, trinidad, tobago, all through the Caribbean, our friends down in the Bahamas, etc. Etc. We really appreciate you listening to the show and, as always, we always say the same thing that if you've got any suggestions for shows or recommendations or anything you want to hear about, any questions, let us know, just email us and we'll be happy to try and do what we can to get you on Now.
Speaker 5:This morning was normal. We went through a lot of rain here, which has been good and bad. I know the farmers have said, okay, enough is enough for a little bit because we've been having lots. But I can tell you that the mycelium and the mushroom growth that I'm seeing has been quite extensive. We've had quite a flush of a number of different mushrooms. As I was going through this morning and it's that time of year again where I started to harvest some reishi mushroom where I started to harvest some reishi mushroom, I was kind of surprised because normally there's somebody else finding my small patch of reishi that grows, as we've talked about before, on hemlock, and harvested some this morning and I'm sure it'll grow back At least it always has. But it seems to be within the same week as what's happening out there and of course my chocolate lab Ensign gunner was out out for his run. You can tell there's coyotes or fox in the area because guess what, down in the part of the corner of one of the spots by the park there was a cat that was being taken care of, shall we say, by the local coyotes or fox. And I'm sure we'll see the notice on this week saying anybody see a missing cat. But that's what happens when you're that close to the fields and you get all that kind of activity with coyotes and them howling at night. But anyways, it's that time of year and great to see and hopefully we're going to get into some warmer weather, because it's been just a little cool, little damp, which I kind of looking forward to summer, but we had a good spring. As we lay Now.
Speaker 5:One of the other things was that I got some garlic from the Halliburton Farmer's Market and it started to go to seed, so to speak. It started to sprout, so I planted it in the spring and most of the garlic, as we know, bev Bedellinardo, the master gardener that we had on, she always, you know, would plant in the fall and even if it's grounds frozen, if you can break ground to get it in, get it in in the fall because it starts the roots digging deep. But the garlic that I planted has been up and it's probably about seven, eight inches tall already and it's only been a little over a week now. So I know it's going good. We'll see how it goes. Of course the harvest season is a little bit different, but these bulbs were pretty good, with only about four cloves in each bulb, which I kind of like, because I hate those kind of screwing around with those little wee cloves inside to try and clean them up, etc, etc. But we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 5:And today we've got a great guest. We're going to talk about some interesting topics. That should be timely because, as this comes out, we need to start to get ready for the fall stuff. And we've got Nick Malcolm from Fireway, fireplace and Barbecue. Welcome to the program, nick. Hey, welcome, good morning.
Speaker 4:Jerry.
Speaker 5:Yeah, now tell us about where you're from, nick, and kind of for our international listeners from Toronto so that they get a sense of where you are.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I live in a little small town just about an hour northeast of Port of Toronto, sorry, which is the town of Port Perry Kind of got deep-rooted history here with my family who kind of came down over in 1864 to the local area. So yeah, we've been laying down roots about an hour north of Toronto and it's kind of been where my, my, my upbringing has always began.
Speaker 5:so hi, and and now I don't know if you know, but I've got some. I try to. However, uh, diane, my wife, uh, why do we have all these books? What do you need all these books?
Speaker 5:for once, you've read them anyways, I got a couple of historic books that goes into details and one of them which I didn't realize before, it was called Port Perry. It was actually called Perry's Port, that's right, and I didn't know that. And actually the first road going from Oshawa, where I am north, to Port Perry, where you are, was Simcoe Street, and it goes into the details. This book, it was called Reminiscences and Recollections, by Dr Hogg, who wrote a book on Oshawa and he talks about how the first person who owned a car drove. And do you know right where the railroad tracks up by the 10th concession are? On the top of the hill there. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Oh well, he said they drove the car up there. They came across a black bear, turned around and never drove up that way again.
Speaker 4:Oh, is that right, yeah, we've got a deep rooted history here. Like my, my grandfather is actually the first mayor of Scugog, so he laid down a lot of kind of deep, deep roots with kind of getting a lot of the infrastructure and kind of layout of bylaws and stuff that took place in the Scugog township. So, you know, rebuilding the causeway and making sure that was a more, a more, a better traveled road, kind of getting up over to the island. And yeah, he definitely laid down a lot of the early roots in the scugog community. So I'm very versed in that field for sure.
Speaker 5:Did not know that. That's interesting to know. Now tell us a bit about yourself, nick. What's your background? What do you specialize in?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so my main specialty is a specialty hearth retailer and what that really means is I'm a fireplace guy. You know I have deep roots that have kind of immersed in this industry. That started from my father where we, you know, my childhood began up in the sugar shack with my dad where we'd be sipping on some maple syrup, and we're literally just a stone's throw from there. We had a little hearth shop or wood stove shop in our home garage in the little town of Nessleton, ontario. There we sold, actually, maple syrup, wood stoves and grape juice, and those were kind of our three staples, along with having a vegetable stand.
Speaker 4:So from there I had a lot of early youth in the fireplace business, kind of tagging along with my dad and learning the kind of ins and outs and being stuffed in every little crawl space going and a crazy rooftop to dangle on the top of chimneys. Um, from there my kind of a career said hey, dad, you know what, I'm going to go head off and do my own thing. And that's when, uh, in 2004, fire away began for me. So I started my own brand in the growing town of Clarington or growing town of Bowmanville and from there later I branched out a second retail location in Coburg, and then actually just more recently I've added two more branches to that Fire Away brand in Port Perry and Uxbridge. So yeah, my whole life's kind of been immersed in the hearth industry, um, with brick and mortar shops and and peddling fire and and passion for the fire um and kind of selling everything that comes along with it, right oh yeah, so you were in Nessleton.
Speaker 5:Whereabouts in Nessleton, were you?
Speaker 4:not not necessarily Nessleton, north Nessleton, so so we kind of fall. Yeah, just literally a few minutes down the road from Nesselton you'll find the North Nesselton and yeah, that's where we had a little family farm there of about 60 acres in which we mostly hardwood bush. Probably about 40 acres or 30 acres of that is Hardwood Bush, and that's where my life doing firewood and everything to do with farm living and forest living began for sure.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so was that up by the church north of Nestleton?
Speaker 4:Exactly. So just up past the Nestleton United Church, there, exactly. You just head down a little further on to the um east side. There, um, where we still, my, my folks are still there today, my mom has an art studio, uh, buried into the forest there now with a beautiful barn that was just uh removed and resurrected from uh, from the mennonites. We did a relocate of an old barn in the middle of the forest and, yeah, it's a beautiful spot and it's always nice to be able to head back to the homestead and kind of regroup and recollect your thoughts of your childhood for sure.
Speaker 5:So now you mentioned quite a bit of hardwood bush and I don't know, because we've had a discussion on the podcast before about individuals that have over 10 acres that can actually get the managed forest land tax rebate, and I'm not sure if they do or not.
Speaker 5:Oh, they do Good, because that's in conjunction with my old ministry having been the Minister of Natural Resources where people get incentives to manage it in conjunction with the Ministry of Natural Resources and get about 75% of the taxes that they normally would pay off that are covered by the ministry now. So it's just a big incentive to provide proper forest management. So it sounds like you've got that or they've got that already.
Speaker 4:They do, and I actually have that the same on my farm, where we currently have a roughly 40 acre farm on Scugog Island and that's where we reside, and we do a bit of a managed forest here as well, where we reside, and we do a bit of a managed forest here as well, and, uh and the same, we're fighting off that uh, that uh natural cycle of coyotes and protecting my chickens and all the other things you previously spoke of. So that really resonated with me as I lost two, uh, two girls last week. So, um, yeah, that that there's definitely a big influx of wildlife around this, uh, spugog Island area for sure.
Speaker 5:So yeah, yeah, yeah. So now now, nick, I've done a couple of podcasts with my son on um, firewood and chainsaws and stuff like that Cause, uh, we do a bit of well. When I was back in college I uh had a I ran a bit of a cutter skitter operation where I'd haul out logs and cut firewood and stuff like that and end up doing cleanup stuff. I can recall there was a great guy who was the Ministry of Natural Resources forester for the district. His name is Bob Penwell, bless his soul. He used to manage the Ganaraska Forest, which I'm sure you know Absolutely, which is 12,500 acres or hectares I'm not sure if that's acres or hectares, but it's certainly 12,500 acres at least and they would get cutters come in and then they would leave and there'd be half a load there. I'd end up.
Speaker 5:At that time it wasn't a problem to be able and he'd appreciate me going in and cleaning it up for him. So it worked out great and and we started firewood and then my boys had just kind of continued on when they were in school. So we do a bit of cutting. So what I wanted to talk about, nick, was your expertise in regards to wood stoves versus fireplace and inserts and maybe we can kind of walk through and give us a bit of insight on each and every one of what we just talked about. So the efficiency et cetera for fireplaces and things like that, for sure.
Speaker 4:So there's no question, there's lots of variables when it comes to wood burning gas and also we're just seeing a big kind of change in what's really sought after and I find in the market we really are getting these kind of insurges of what products people are looking for. So wood burning fireplaces, inserts and stoves, they all basically took a little bit of a hiatus over the past kind of call it 10 years where we were really seeing a decline on the demand for those products, but what I'm finding in the last two years is a serious surge of demand. So I find kind of these generations kind of go in spans right where we're now. We're finding you know, potentially your kids or some of these kids that I say kids that are now 30, 40 years old. You know kids that I say kids that are now 30, 40 years old, you know in their new home, that have this memories of sitting by mom and dad's wood stove or grandma and grandpa's wood stove. You know, and I'm finding that that's kind of creating now this demand, that it's because that's what comes with fire is also making memories right.
Speaker 4:So it's not just the heat or the efficiency, so, but jumping back to the efficiency side of things. When you take an open hearth masonry fireplace for instance, which we've always defined them as kind of the rich man's fire, you know it's money up the flue. They operate anywhere in between five to 10% in efficiency, meaning you're basically sending 90% of those flue gases back up the chimney. So when we do or add, let's say, an efficient or a certified wood-burning insert into that fireplace opening, we basically do the opposite. Now we're burning at somewhere in the side of 85% efficiency, meaning we're only sending 15% of the flue gases back up the chimney.
Speaker 4:That's obviously relating to a lot more efficiency of heating inside of the room, on top of just the fact of adding a good efficient, which means basically a lot less work. You know the same amount of to produce the same amount of heat. It takes a lot less energy as we're not getting all that loss. But yeah, there's definitely heavy, heavy benefits to adding efficient appliances into these openings and that even goes whether we're talking about rectifying the old Franklin wood stove or updating. You take some of these old wood burning appliances that had large flues venting into an older masonry chimney. There is so much more efficiency to be gained, which efficiency really relates to a better wood burning experience.
Speaker 5:So, Nick, now you mentioned about the amount of heat, instead of only like 90% of the heat going up the chimney. So if you're in the house we bought, it was built in 1958 and it had a fireplace in it that it's in the center of the house and it's surrounded. So the chimney is inside the house, it's in the center of the house and it's surrounded. So the chimney is inside the house. Yeah, and we last year we went through probably between four and five bushcord. For those that don't know, a bushcord is four feet high and four feet wide, eight feet long, but it was a lot of because we took down a white spruce out of the front yard. So there was quite a bit, probably three bushcord of softwoods essentially. So you think that if we were to put in a fire an insert in the fireplace insert that it would reduce the amount of wood that we need to burn?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. You know, just as I kind of had touched base on that of where we're moving from a 90% efficient or 85% efficient unit right down to a 10% efficient unit, I would see that your wood consumption in that would be at a third of consumption, you know. So if you're pumping anywhere in that three to five bush cords and the reality of I think you're probably three to five is also that's not necessarily running that thing 24-7. That's pushing three to five and also not necessarily getting you know all of that, you're not necessarily getting the performance out of it. So I would cut that same three to five down to two bush cords, but also with that two you're actually going to be heating.
Speaker 4:You're also going to be doing a lot more for the environment in the sense of just emission controls. You know wood burning appliances are a wonderful item for that carbon cycle. But you can imagine, as I mentioned about sending the flue gases up the chimney. You know, when you are burning with these newer style efficient units we are burning the appliance, then we actually have a secondary re-burn which is re-burning a lot of those flue gases and in a sense emitting a lot less toxic emissions.
Speaker 5:So and a lot of people don't understand, nick, I don't think they understand that when you say re-burning the gases, I don't think people understand the actual process of wood, where it's more or less melting in the fire and you're burning the gases off. You can probably elaborate that on a bit precisely so.
Speaker 4:You know, the simplest breakdown or the most common kind of term would be a catalytic right. Catalytic is kind of more specific to certain brands and each fireplace manufacturer kind of has their own term, you know, whether it be the clean burn or the vortex or the catalytic. So each one of these kind of they achieve the same or similar results each to their own, but they kind of do it in different ways. So the sum up of that is where, yes, you're burning your wood. Basically there's your hot dilution air is pumped up through the bottom of the appliance and then shot back through the top. What this does is it creates a hot amount of basically hot air pumping through the top, which then starts to re-burn all your smoke.
Speaker 4:So if you're really and me, I I can't drive past the house without looking at a chimney, or it's where my eyes always go to first. But you know, when I see smoke just barreling out the top of the chimney, I just sit there and go oh god, you know what are we burning in there? Because the reality of a clean burning system is you really should just see water vapor. You know you won't actually see smoke coming at the top of a chimney with a clean burning appliance, you'll just see that kind of misty, haze of water vapor. And that's that's when I know. You know, when I drive past and I see creosote just barreling or dripping off the the drain cap, I just cringe and just wait for that phone call for that chimney sweep. Oh yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, and I know when. When actually there was a part of my life where we lived in Crooked Creek, just north of Newtonville, you know, just south of Starkville, west east of Brownsville, where we had a wood oil combination furnace, Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 5:And what it had was two fire pots where you could actually burn wood, and so you'd run the wood burning and as soon as that stopped burning, then the oil would kick in through the middle of the night and you'd be able to burn oil.
Speaker 5:Yep, one aspect about it was, when the power went out, you could actually continue to have the burned wood in it and it would still heat the house at that time. So, and you mentioned about in the last two years, you're seeing a surge. I can recall when we're in Crooked Creek there, and I mentioned the Ganaraska Forest, they actually opened it up for public cuts. And I mentioned the Ganaraska Forest. They actually opened it up for public cuts because at that time there was the world oil crisis, where oil went from $7 to $37 a barrel, so they saw a huge demand in wood burning at that time. So they opened up some public cuts to allow the public to come in and get firewood to be able to burn in order to supplement their heat. And you think potentially the same thing's happening in the last two years is that the cost of everything is going up, that people are realizing, hey, maybe it's cheaper to burn wood, or is it?
Speaker 4:for sure. So you know, the thing with wood burning is obviously you, you understand, or you can really um dial in your exact cost as to what you're going to consume. You know. So when you order your three bush cords and you know that's going to do your heating for the season, you know not that a bush cord is getting any cheaper, but let's average this out between 350 and 450,. Let's say, you know, you know you've got that kind of fixed cost of the thousand to $1,400 mark in heating and, as, as most know, or if anyone that has wood burning experiences, you know it's a wonderful heat. You know, like I said, when it comes down to the appropriate appliance to burn these, that's very important for a bunch of different aspects. But yeah, the insurgents I think does come in there. Like I'm not kidding when I say we're at probably a 60% wood burning um, throughout my four retail locations. So you know, really wood burning is taking back over and uh, you know it's.
Speaker 4:It's been a bit of a struggle, for we've had different manufacturers which have kind of dropped off of the wood burning scene with some different government regulations that have kind of been imposed and there's kind of dropped off of the wood-burning scene with some different government regulations that have kind of been imposed and there's kind of ever-changing things within our industry that kind of keep affecting these wood-burning appliances. But I think right now we're kind of in the clear. Some of the stuff has been pushed aside politics-wise and we're kind of good for another eight to ten years, so to speak of good good for another eight to ten years, so to speak of good clean wood burning, before we kind of get, uh, uh, redirected again, maybe in another bout, or we're asked to have new certifications for the next level of clean burning appliances. So, uh, 2020, there was a big um influx or a big, big push there for some new EPA standards, which most of the manufacturers had to really step up and and not necessarily reinvent the wheel, but had to bring their appliances or make them a little better, cleaner burning.
Speaker 4:And yeah, I, I'm, I'm excited in the wood burning world there's there's something kind of old, old school. It's one of those old school kind of pastimes that it's a labor of love. But if you really do love that wood-burning heat, it truly is a love, and I always relate fire in anything. You know, I always say go camping without a campfire and then go camping with a campfire. It's two totally different camping experiences. Right, like it changes everything. It changes the morale, it changes the, the, the experience, the heat, the cooking, the, the, everything, right? So, yeah, no, there's definitely a lots of cool aspects of fire.
Speaker 5:So yeah, I know, and, and you mentioned about the cost of wood now, um, I always thought it would be a a great corner gas gas show to be called a woodmonger. And so we get a lot of our wood because you get the arborists going around cutting trees down in a lot of the municipality and then the wood is left by the roadside. And once it's at the roadside it's free for all.
Speaker 5:First up, best dressed gets to grab the the wood they want, and so a lot of the wood that we end up getting, and I know I got, um, it might be half three quarters of a face cord out front drying right now, uh, to take around back when I get my wheelbarrow back that uh will be burning this year. But a lot of that wood at the side of the road, uh, you're going to see people lining up or grabbing that wood and there's no cost for that, which is pretty good. But when people get wood like that, what kind of dry time do you figure it should be? And what's the best way to cure some of that wood to make sure it reduces the amount of moisture content? And why is it important to reduce the moisture content?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you know, I'll be quite honest. Whenever I hear a customer say I got a buddy who's an arborist, I get lots of free wood, it always makes me cringe, you know, because exactly that my mind instantly goes to okay, and I'm putting this appliance in right now, meaning that, like they don't already have their stack stored and ready to roll and they've got some fresh green wood showing up tomorrow, uh, that they're going to try to start pumping through their new high efficient appliance. So I I always cringe anytime I hear I have a buddy that's an arborist. So, um, you know, going from there though, yeah, the key thing to any good wood burning experience is properly seasoned wood, you know, and what that really means is typically, you want to have it seasoned annually for a year. Um, you, the most proper way to store that wood would be typically up on some skids or up off the ground. Um, you want it covered on top, so more of like a lean-to or a lid, but you still want the air to be able to pass through this. So, more or less keeping it elevated, but having that air to be able to pass through typical moisture content.
Speaker 4:There's also a a happy medium here, where there is a thing called too dry and of course there's too wet. What creates creosote is moisture right. So for a good, clean burning experience you typically want to produce more of what I would call a soot. So creosote is black, shiny, stinky, smelly. Where soot is kind of light, brown and airy, you know it's powdery, very easy to clean, versus the opposite of creosote which is really difficult to clean and sometimes can really damage a complete system.
Speaker 4:So yeah, properly seasoned wood, minimal one year average moisture content. You kind of want to sit around that 12 to 14%. There is some moisture meters available which you can just kind of probe into your wood burning or into your wood for wood burning and that can kind of dial in your accuracy for where you want your your wood to be sitting at. If you have a little bit of extra moisture inside that wood, you can bring that into the same room with the appliance and really watch that moisture content change with just in a couple days, um, in which can then make that a much better wood burning experience a few days later once it's dried out or climatized a little better within the room with the appliance. So right.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I had an old cook stove. To be honest, it was um. You know, it had the uh, the water heaters on the side of it.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah some water jackets yeah, water jackets and it had an oven on it. To be honest, I think it was more of a coal stove than a wood stove because the grates that were inside were very, very unique. But what I used to do would be I would put in the oven, I would put wood inside the oven. Okay, let it bake that wood, yeah, a little. Kiln dry a little kiln action.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's still. Hey, that is what it's all about. You know, just making sure. Honestly, it's like it's like anything if I get the phone call that says, hey, nick, you just put this appliance in and I'm really not happy with the performance, you know it's just not doing. I remember at my grandpa's cottage we used to be able to get cooked out of that room. And so what's the first thing I do? I grab 10 beautiful pieces of hardwood from my own stack at home and I show up there and I have a fire with them. You know, um, you know two probably main things is a lot of customers have what we call tinker fires, or what I call it anyways, where, you know you're, you're adding another log on the fire every hour.
Speaker 4:But these new high efficient appliances are all burnt or designed to be burnt in in what we call cycles. You know, so typically it would be a two load a day burning cycle. You know where we're literally packing these up like a puzzle. If it can fit, it is designed to be in that firebox.
Speaker 4:So I'll show up there and they're like, uh, I'll say, hey, here, load it up the way that you typically would, and I watch them put their two, three pieces in there there's lots of volume still above it and I'm like whoa, let's grab another six pieces here like a puzzle and we're going to pack this thing. And they just kind of look at me like Nick, I don't know, are you sure? And I'm sure so we button this thing down, load it up and see you later, 10 hours later. We have a wonderful burning experience, you know. So yeah, seasoned wood is definitely the top key there. But to maximize efficiency in these appliances as well, it's very important to load them correctly and burn them. Burn them, let's say, a little different than you used to burn grandpa's old stove.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody. I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's Favorite Fishing Show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, ang and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm, now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 7:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes, All the other guys would go golfing Me and Garth and Turk and all the Russians would go fishing.
Speaker 3:To scientists, but now that we're reforesting and letting things freeze, it's the perfect transmission environment for line fishing.
Speaker 6:To chefs If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 2:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are. Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. Find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 5:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, I'm here in Millbrook with Trevor, who had a great experience and wants to share it with us with the skin cream, the Chaga skin cream. Trevor, tell us what you went through and how much you used and go ahead.
Speaker 3:I've had eczema on my arm since I was a little kid and it's always been quite a rough patch there on my arm and no lotion seemed to ever get it so that it was smooth, right. But using the Chaga, probably for three weeks, it feels like normal skin now. Yeah, and how often did you put it on? I put it on maybe once every other day. I didn't remember to do it every day. Yeah, but once every other day, one time a day.
Speaker 5:Very good and you had great results, and now it feels like normal skin again. Very good yeah.
Speaker 5:And you didn't try anything else, so you figure that's what. No, that was. They work, so I'm sticking with that. Very good, well, thanks, trevor here in Millbrook.
Speaker 5:Yeah, okay, we interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening back to the episode. Now, when you're burning a lot of wood, nick the moisture content in the air it it dries it out quite a bit, does it not? And how do you compensate for things like that? Or is it necessary?
Speaker 4:so, so there's no really.
Speaker 4:I think that's still just jumping back down to having properly seasoned wood.
Speaker 4:You know, if you are trying to burn water out of the wood, it takes away from the fundamentals of heating, right, you're going to take all the energy to boil the water out versus producing heat and it's also just going to get messy.
Speaker 4:So I can say number one if you're trying to burn wet wood, stop. Go and get some dry, seasoned wood period, because you're just going to be prone for chimney fire except or excessive creosote buildup, which then will result to a chimney fire, which then obviously has all of its own hazards on its own right. So, um, yeah, if you're trying to boil the water to the wood, stop. Get yourself some good wood. Um, you can reduce that moisture content by, yes, climatizing or moving that indoors, um, but the key is is, yeah, wood burning is a job that kind of has to be projected early on. You know you need to make sure you have, if you're looking to burn for the wood burning season, you already have your wood delivered a year in advance and stored and ready so that that can be seasoned and ready to go for the following year's wood burning season.
Speaker 5:Right. Yeah, what I'm referring to, nick, I think is the moisture in the air in the room or in the house or wherever you're burning. Yeah, sorry, that's okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so there's no question there. In a sense of wood burning we've always kind of added, whether it be kettles or steamers or things like that. So wood burning appliances tend to dry things out. Appliances tend to dry things out. When you take a home and a fire that's burning, it's not uncommon to be looking to add extra moisture into that room. Just being the fact that the immense amount of heat is drying everything out, you are typically drawing that air back out of the room. So you're taking your combustion air back out of the room in which the appliance is burning. So, yeah, it is important to kind of whether you have a humidifier on the furnace that you can run just in order to add moisture back into the area, or whether you do a steamer on top of the appliance, which also works wonderful, kind of to add that moisture back into the room and help the so.
Speaker 5:Nick, when you're curing your wood, does it matter the size of the wood? Like the large pieces, If you take a large one or you've cut that in half, will it cure quicker if they're smaller pieces?
Speaker 4:For sure. So obviously less volume is going to allow that air to be able to or that moisture to be able to escape it. But I do feel also with these appliances, it's important to have a little bit of a variety in sizing. So, as I said about maximizing the volume of the firebox and making sure that you're able to pack that thing solid, I like having my small pieces, my big logs, my, you know, my medium pieces. It gives me a good variety to really build that puzzle and maximize the volume so I can get a good burning cycle, um, for for the day or the evening, right. So, but on a moisture content, I, I think in general, um, moisture, will you know, the smaller the piece, the moisture will get out of it a little quicker, for sure.
Speaker 4:But I think really it comes down to how you're. You know I'll show up to a lot of customers' homes and see the pile of wood sitting in the driveway, which you know I also. Go back six months later and that pile of wood is still sitting in the driveway. It's just got a tarp drooped over it and literally it's like a uh, like a greenhouse, you know, the water and moisture just being trapped right. So storage is definitely key. Um, different quality of woods also burn a lot differently. You know um you. You can take a a wood like ash which, as we know, there's plenty of ash around it burns well and even when it's not fully seasoned. You know, I still always recommend good season, but if you were to pick any of the woods, it's probably the one that can tolerate a little bit more moisture for the burning season or for burning in general.
Speaker 5:Right. So larger pieces when they burning in general, right. So larger pieces when they're in the firebox. So if you fill up with your firebox, say in your fireplace, insert with large pieces as compared to the same volume of small pieces, will they burn the amount of time or will the small pieces end up not lasting as long?
Speaker 4:I kind of look at it as a cord wood kind of slipping into the box. So the way I pack is literally like a puzzle. So yes, there's obviously a slight bit of airflow mixed in between these two pieces or these multiple pieces, but I do find I kind of look at it as just one solid block that's going in there. So in theory I think some of the larger pieces could potentially burn for a little bit longer. But the thing with these high efficient appliances is the fireboxes aren't that big right. So when you try to put a big hunk and awkward log, so to speak, into that firebox it makes the rest of the volume a little trickier. So I love proper split cord wood because again, those triangle pieces they do really fit like a puzzle and you can really pack the volume in there. But I do find you know logs or rounds and some of the big pieces can definitely equate to a little bit longer burn times for sure.
Speaker 4:But you know, when they do the testing in these factories it's not that they're skewed testings, but each manufacturer, they all have to go by the same test, right? So they basically use uh, they have kind of a crib cordwood test right where it's kind of more or less the most beautifully seasoned wood, um, squared right in which they kind of make this crib and they put it in and they do a flash fire on it, and that's kind of where they come up with a lot of their BTUs and burn times and stuff like that. So they're not always set to some of the the brochure numbers are not. They're not always set to real world burning experience, right, so, and that's the reality I find with some of those.
Speaker 4:So yeah, to sum it up, big wood isn't necessarily a flaw, it's not a bad thing, but I think having the variety is what's most important, and maximizing that volume of firebox, because if you're not filling the box to the top, you're not going to get that secondary re-burn working the way that it should. If you're just having a few fire or tinker fire in the bottom, um, you're not going to get the same effect out of that secondary re-burn, which hence means for shorter burn cycles and nowhere near as clean of a wood burning, uh, a system for emissions okay, well, nick, back to a fireplace.
Speaker 5:So our old fireplace that was, you know, came with the house that was built, as I mentioned, in 58. Yeah, it has. So you've got the, the firebox, which is basically, and there's all fire brick inside there, yep, and then above there is a uh, there's a damper there that you can open and close to regulate the. How does the damper affect? And I know you shut it down so cold air is not blowing down the chimney, yep, and then you've got a firebox, after that, a smoke chamber. Smoke chamber, you got it.
Speaker 5:And then up, and then it goes up the chimney, kind of run us through the typical fireplace and the components of it and which each function is supposed to be.
Speaker 4:So what you're kind of describing is what we call an open hearth masonry and, as I said, you can pump as much wood through something like that as your heart contents. You know there is no limit to how much wood that you could chew through that thing in a season and that the trouble with something like that is also, of course, the loss of efficiency when you're not burning. So, as we were just mentioning about a damper, really those open hearths kind of have a call it a handle damper with different notches in it that you could potentially um, you know not or set slightly closed or a little bit closed. But the issue you run into open hearth masonries is it takes a lot of energy to warm up all that cool masonry work, so initially establishing a good draft can sometimes be very difficult. Different fireplaces will also have deeper smoke shelves or deeper lintels, so you may have to build a fire very much further to the back of these open hearth masonries in order to just have not be filling the house full of smoke, so to speak.
Speaker 4:Right, really, when it comes down to the components on an open hearth, they're pretty straightforward. You know, you've got your main firebox, you. It comes down to the components on an open hearth they're pretty straightforward. You know you've got your main firebox. You're typically going to have a heat elator or a firebrick rear backing. A lot of the time there's also attached to those heat elators. You'll 10% of the heat back into the room and sending 90% back up the chimney. There it right back to accommodate for a stainless steel liner to come down that flute. Um, you know the advantages of of lining these number one. Number one would be safety. Um, so that we're not just adding an insert into these openings and now the creosote can just kind of fall back down the chimney and lay on top of the appliance.
Speaker 4:It's probably one of the largest fire hazards with open hearth masonry fireplaces and adding an insert into it. So under wet standards we are required to have a continuous stainless steel liner running from top to bottom. What this also kind of takes care of is some of the efficiency loss. So, jumping back to the open hearth masonry where you know, until that fire's completely out coals and all, you have your damper open and typically it's just wide open. So meaning all night long when your fire's gone out you're just sitting literally drafting and sucking all of the heat that was in your home, straight back out the flue.
Speaker 4:When we go to the high efficient now with the stainless liner, we actually insulate and seal around that liner at the top and the door is also gasketed on the fireplace. So this means when that door is sealed up or airtight, we're not actually having any more heat loss out of the house when we're not burning. So there's so many benefits to adding each kind of wood burning system, whether that be a freestanding wood stove, an open hearth masonry, adding a wood burning high efficient insert into it, or a factory built wood burning fireplace. They each kind of have their own unique scenario. Wood burning fireplace. They each kind of have their own unique scenario.
Speaker 5:They each have their own installation and, yeah, there's definitely lots of different variables that kind of come into play with each one of those systems so so, nick, you mentioned something that I'm sure a lot of people don't know what it, what it means, or itET certified, and what is a WET certification and what does that mean and how important is it or what does it? Just kind of give us a rundown so people know what it means to be WET certified?
Speaker 4:For sure. So there's it's a very misconception. There's a lot of misconception when it comes to certification or the term WET in general, right, first off, people are like, well, what's WET? So it's really. You have, wet is a organization in which there's actually no such thing as a WET certification, so you can have what we call a wood heating report, which would be completed by a WET certified advisor like myself, right? So you've got wood energy technical technologies that's what it stands for. Or technical technicians um, and that's what it stands for.
Speaker 4:And really we're finding, like, with wet, um, we're it's a private organization, um, you know, regulated on its own, and we're trying to put a lot of trying to really educate wood burning and understand it in the right light.
Speaker 4:You know, with WET it's really a common thing asked for by insurance companies, right, in which they don't really necessarily fully understand or grasp what they're looking for either. So there's a whole other thing we can kind of jump into on it. But the reality is, is it's about safe wood burning practices, right? And we kind of lay out those guidelines and understand what you really require in order to have a safe wood burning experience. Now, obviously, just like anything, there's lots of variables that come aside, that you can have the most cleanest and safest wood burning system installed out there, but if you're burning the wettest and poorest quality of fuel, uh, it can lead to all sorts of issues, even on a very safe burning system, right? So yeah, wet is really. You know, we're creating standards or they're creating standards and we tend to we understand those standards and do good installation practices, that kind of abide by those rules.
Speaker 4:So what does WET stand for then, Nick yeah, so you've got Wood Energy Technical Training and Wood Energy Technical Technicians. So it has nothing to do with water, it just is to do with the understanding of wood burning systems and there's lots of different levels in that, whether you're an installer, a chimney sweep, a pellet specialty company or, sorry, a pellet burning advisor, a wood burning advisor yeah, lots of different, different kind of levels inside of that organization and you'll kind of find specialists within each field so you brought up a new topic that I never considered was about the pellet burning stoves.
Speaker 5:Uh, yeah tell us. How do, how do they compare with, say, other stoves and um, what is the difference between I've seen softwood pellets, hardwood pellets and the burn? And how do they make the pellets and are they clean, burning and efficient? Or is there chemicals added to make these little pellets in the first place?
Speaker 4:So yeah, typically there's not any chemicals added. They're a very clean burning system. I've kind of gone both ways on pellets. You know I've had years where I've gone kind of stronger on it. It's again one of those markets that I find. You'll have a big pellet year and then you'll have a soft pellet year, and I mean that really in the amount of volume of pellet stove sales that we have, and they are a bit of a tinkerman stove I keep using this tinker term but there's a fair bit of maintenance involved with pellet burning.
Speaker 4:So I do find if you're going to install a pellet stove, you want to have a good one. You know I sell Harman, which I find one of the leading pellet stoves out there. They do a lot of nice innovative systems of feeding the pellets up into the hopper versus dropping um, or into the story the burn pot versus dropping them down from above, which reduces fly ash. Um. The quality of the components are a lot better and and that's what I find is you really have unlike a wood stove you kind of have three, three electronic systems. You have a auger to feed the pellets in there, you have the uh blower or forced air um. You have a forced air convection blower on it, um your auger, and then you also have an exhaust blower. So basically it's a wood stove that requires power to operate, right. So, uh, that's one factor there. A lot of clients do love the fact that they can just grab a bag of pellets and dump it in the hopper, and the efficiency on these things are quite lovely.
Speaker 4:I have some customers that burn their pellet stoves and they they swear by it, you know.
Speaker 4:So, um bit of fly ash, you got to do some daily maintenance, some weekly maintenance and then just some general maintenance as well, just kind of keeping that, that creosote and the soot, kind of cleaned up out of these systems.
Speaker 4:Um, going from there jumping into the quality of pellets, you know it's I've might I have a personal experience with burning a pellet stove and and yeah, like you typically want a fairly low ash content. That's kind of the common. I've got lots of mixed opinions, though. I have some customers that they pick up a skid of pellets from the local feed store and they just swear by this one versus the other. So I do find it's you know, I've never taken a pellet and broken it down and really analyzed it they all kind of look the same. They all produce that good hot wood heat. But yes, there's no uh, some of the better hardwood pellets with a lower kind of and some with a minimum kind of 15 ash content um do tend to burn uh much nicer than definitely some of the softwood pellets as far as efficiency and length of burn times, for sure right.
Speaker 5:So a of things. And what do you suggest people do with a lot of the wood ash once they've done with their fires and they clean out their fireplace or their wood stove or their insert, and what do you recommend people do with the ash?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I've definitely seen it done lots of ways. It's probably one of my most common and you know knock on wood here in my 21 years of owning Fire Away I've never had any issues or any fires related to any of my clients' homes. Fire items is someone taking their ash bucket or cleaning their hot coals and embers out and they set that wood bucket onto the rear deck of the home and next thing we know it kind of spreads or that those hot coals sitting in the bucket causes the fire. Nothing to do with the internal appliance. So it's one of those ones that always kind of resonates with me whenever we talk about, you know, ash or proper storage of things. So number one yeah, make sure you get your hot coals and ashes and get them away from the house and make sure you're storing them in a metal bucket.
Speaker 4:Ok, going from there, you know, I've always kind of grown up where we we kept a bit of that and we use it in the gardens and kind of mulch that throughout. Um, that's been one. But sometimes that can create some toxicity in there as well. Um, but yeah, we have. We kind of have an ash spot at the farm here where we just kind of take the ashes out to dump them in and I'll, uh, I'll mix those in now and again. But uh, you know, other than that, as far as ash is, it's what I use to clean the glass on my appliance. You know it's there's nothing quite like a little bit of a damp cloth dabbing your your cloth into the ashes, and it will, it will eat itself off the glass, so to speak. So it's probably, it's not.
Speaker 4:My grandpa showed me we always burnt, actually, our potato peels in the wood burning appliance as well, peels in the wood burning appliance as well. I was always told the potassium burning off of the potato peels helped, uh, clean or reduce, reduce that creosote inside of the flue liner. So just something I've always done. Um, but uh, you know, I've definitely seen a lot of systems. I've swept a lot of chimneys in my life. I've I've blown black out my nose for for years and years and years, so to speak, and I sing the song when I get up there sometimes and uh, yeah, no, it's uh, as far as that. As far as ashes go, though, jumping back to that, yeah, you know, I do know a lot of people that do mix it in amongst the gardens and kind of compost and uh. But I think it really comes down to the volume of ashes we're dealing with yeah, I hadn't heard about potato peelings.
Speaker 5:However, I have heard people burning eggshells as well for the same reason. Have you heard that as well?
Speaker 4:Exactly, I have actually, yeah, I have heard that. It was never one that we did. You know we've been. Yeah, all I'm doing right now is I chuck the eggshells back in with the chickens. They seem to like them after we eat our eggs, but uh, they, they tend to chip away at them. Um, but yeah, no, I never. I never did the the eggshells of myself or my own personal experience, but yeah, no, I have definitely heard it, uh as well.
Speaker 5:So yeah, I, we would always burn the or I would always burn the eggshells, and but I never knew if it was just a wife's tale or or if there's some reality to it.
Speaker 4:I often wonder too.
Speaker 5:I think it all still comes down to you know, it all comes down to the quality and moisture content of the wood, and I think I'll always keep jumping back to that one for sure yeah, and one of the other things, though, is, most people don't know, however, I did a show on soap making, and one of the components in soap is lye, and I don't know, nick, if you know, how they actually get lye.
Speaker 4:I don't actually. It's not something I'm going to pretend to be an expert on.
Speaker 5:Well, lye could be a result of what's taking off your soot or cleaning your glass with, because when you pass water through hardwood ash, what comes out is lye and it's very acidic and is used in soap making as one of the key components, and historically it goes back to the Egyptians, where they would burn wood and then they found that when they did the burn, they would throw the ashes over the side of the bank and they found that when they washed their clothes below that, they came out a lot cleaner. Oh, okay, yeah, so it was actually, and that's how lye eventually developed. And by you taking a damp cloth and putting it in a hardwood ash, you're probably getting some lye in there.
Speaker 4:That's helping clean out uh, clean off your glass there we go jumping back to the, jumping back to the egyptians and that's uh, yeah, that's really, that's really neat, yeah so, nick, so tell us.
Speaker 5:Uh, some of the best burning woods you mentioned about ash was pretty good, and some of the other one. What are some of the other ones that you feel?
Speaker 4:obviously, like, the best woods for heating your home are dense hardwoods. You know, they burn a lot longer, they produce more heat and like, if you were to to kind of break it down, you have your oak. Uh, oak is typically a high heat output. It and good for a long burn time. You know, uh, birch, it burns very quickly, it's a strong heat, but it's really good for starting up some fires. Hickory, it's excellent heat and you'll get really I find different woods. They kind of have different. What you're left with in the bottom of the firebox at the end is that's what kind of variable. So you know, hickory, you'll get long lasting ember. So you'll tend to find you're going to have like a big coal base kind of left in the bottom. Um, and then you also, of course, maple.
Speaker 4:It's a good hot burning, clean and it's not too poppy, so to speak. You know, it's just a good, consistent, good burn. Um, obviously, everywhere, particularly here in ontario, we're ridiculed with dead ash, right, you know, the ash borers knocked out everything and there's standing dead ash trees everywhere. So a lot of that is already jumping ahead of the burning season in the sense of seasoning it. So I find, yeah, that we have a huge. It's nothing when you get a load of hardwood delivered today to have 75% ash inside of that. Ash is a really great burning. It burns nice and even and as I mentioned previously is that it can it burns even good if it's not fully seasoned. You know, you can kind of shoulder a bit of ash with some of your really nice seasoned stuff and really have a great wood burning experience.
Speaker 5:So harvesting standing deadwood, though, as you just briefly mentioned, already starts the seasoning process, right.
Speaker 4:That's correct. So, like you know, I get. It's one of those ones too where I'll show up to some clients' homes and they're like, yeah, I got all my logs sitting right here and I'm going, OK, well, it's great that they're logs, but you got to get those split and opened up in season. So, kind of where we had touched base on trying to release the moisture out of a big log. Yeah, it takes a lot longer to season that wood as it sits in a log than it does, you know, laying, or chopped, split and stacked correctly, or chopped, split and stacked correctly. So but yes, being that it's already standing dead, you're not talking about something that's full of life, you know it's already kind of been starting to dry out, standing dead. So, yeah, you can definitely, you know, have a little bit of a jump start on that seasoning with something that is standing dead. I wouldn't recommend just dropping it and chucking it in the wood stove. You still need to get some seasoning effect into there. But what might may take a year annually.
Speaker 5:You might be able to cut that down to six months for something that's standing dead if you've opened it up and stored it correctly yeah, well, nick, I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast and tell people how can people find out more information, or how can you um give out, or how can they reach out to you and talk to you or find out more details about your business.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you can check us out wwwfireawayca. We've got a new launch of a website that just actually took place just last week, kind of showcasing some of our newest brands but also some of our newest locations. As I said, we kind of expanded Fire Away to four locations where we have, you know, four beautiful, fully burning showrooms. You know over 40 fireplaces on display in each showroom, functional, up and running, where you can touch them, feel them, see them. So yeah, check us out fireawayca, see them. So yeah, check us out fireawayca. You could also send us an email to info at fireawayca and or come see one of my awesome staff in one of our showrooms where we have Bowmanville, Colberg, port Perry and Uxbridge, and we'd love to love to chat.
Speaker 5:Well, nick, I really appreciate you taking the time and enlightening people about fireplaces and wood stoves and inserts and things along those lines, and I think it was very informative. I know I learned a lot and I hope our listeners did as well, hey well, I really appreciate, Jerry.
Speaker 4:You know I hope I touched base on some of the key items there. And yeah, it's definitely been a passion for me and I really do love the industry and I really love to keep, keep the keep it carrying forward. So well.
Speaker 5:Thanks very much, nick. I really appreciate that, and it's just a little something different that people learn now that they're out there under the canopy. Another thing they can do is heating their homes and and enjoying a nice fire, whether it's a campfire or a wood stove or an insert and all the other things that go with burning wood. Thanks a lot, nick. We appreciate that.
Speaker 4:No problem, have a nice day.
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