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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 106: Exploring the Fascinating World of Butterflies at Cambridge Conservatory
Step into a lush tropical paradise nestled in the heart of southern Ontario as we explore the Cambridge Butterfly Conservatory with naturalist Andalyne Tofflemire. This episode takes you behind the scenes of one of Canada's largest butterfly facilities where thousands of exotic butterflies flutter freely among visitors in a meticulously maintained tropical environment.
Andalyne reveals the fascinating journey of how 1,500-2,000 butterfly pupae arrive weekly from sustainable farms in Costa Rica and the Philippines, supporting both conservation and education. You'll discover the surprising containment protocols that prevent these non-native species from escaping into the Canadian environment, including the vigilant "butterfly hitchhiker" checks that visitors undergo before leaving.
The conversation delves into the intricate differences between butterflies and moths (it's all in the antennae!), the silent crisis facing monarch butterflies due to inappropriate rearing practices, and why fireflies are disappearing from our summer skies. You'll learn that firefly larvae are actually predators that hunt slugs and snails in leaf litter, making them garden allies as well as evening light shows.
For butterfly enthusiasts and gardeners alike, Andalyne offers practical advice on creating butterfly-friendly habitats using native plants that serve as both nectar sources and host plants for caterpillars. She emphasizes the importance of moving beyond mere aesthetics to supporting complete butterfly life cycles in our gardens.
Whether you're planning a visit to escape winter's chill in the conservatory's 27°C tropical greenhouse, seeking to understand more about invertebrate conservation, or simply curious about the insect world that surrounds us, this episode provides a window into the extraordinary complexity of some of our smallest but most magnificent neighbors. Ready to see butterflies, scorpions, giant millipedes and stick insects in a whole new light? This conversation will transform how you view the invertebrate world.
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Speaker 3:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people. That will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Under the canopy Well, as always. I always want to thank our listeners Canada-wide, through the states all around the world. You know Switzerland, ghana, trinidad, tobago, the Bahamas and everywhere else. And, as usual, you know, if you've got a question, let us know, we'll try and answer it. And if you you know, if you got a question, let us know, we'll try and answer it. And if you have any suggestions for shows, we would be more than happy to see about what we can do to try and put it together. Sometimes it takes a little bit of time, but we're working on it Now.
Speaker 3:Normally in the mornings I usually get my chocolate lab Ensign, gunner, out for his morning run, but lately we have the great pleasure or well, is it a pleasure? I don't know. I don't think Gunner would think it's a pleasure that my son's dog, Benny, or, as I say, bernard, is with us and he's ball crazy. So when he goes out in the morning, you know and our dog knows the boundaries so I can open the front door does not go on the road, it doesn't matter if there's a rabbit or whatever, but he does not go on the road, but not Benny. So we got to make sure no cars are coming, because if there's a rabbit there he's after it. Just chase it for a bit until it goes out of sight and then okay, that's enough. Where's the ball? But everything's been okay.
Speaker 3:My living apothecary is doing well. You know, my sage is growing well. My mints, the mullein flowers are out. So I haven't tried it before, but picking the mullein flowers, the yellow flowers, and then soaking them in oil supposedly makes spectacular eardrops. Not only that, but after that then the mullein leaves, of course we use for a lot of medicinal application, and the thyme and the rosemary and the lavage. But I think we do need a bit of rain, but not like what it is out west where Garrett is, because he's telling me in Alberta they're getting drenched out there and for as many days as we haven't had rain here, they've had rain just about every day, which is making a little bit wet for them. But that's the way Canada works and our time will come. That's the way Canada works and our time will come. Now, today I've got Anne-Deline Tofflemeyer with us from the Cambridge Butterfly Conservatory.
Speaker 4:Welcome, Anne-Deline. How are you? I am great. It's nice to be here with you today, yeah great.
Speaker 3:Now, just so our listeners know from an international perspective, whereabouts are you located, say from Toronto.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're in southern Ontario, about an hour and a half drive west of Toronto, so in a pretty well populated area, and makes for a nice day trip for most of southern Ontario. Oh, very good. So and tell us a bit about your background. Sure, well, I'm the conservatory manager and naturalist, so I do a lot of things, but I studied wildlife biology at the nearby University of Guelph, so my background is a lot of things biological, but insects were always one of my favorites, so we're all about the butterflies and the insects and invertebrates in general here at the Butterfly Conservatory.
Speaker 3:So you studied a lot of insects. Oh, it deludes me. Now, what do you call a person who studies insects? An entomologist? Yes, an entomologist? Yes, I've been trying to get an entomologist on for a while and occasionally I get somebody from Invasive Species Ontario to come on and we talk about different things. But maybe we can talk about a few things. So your background. So you went to. Where was it again?
Speaker 4:Yeah, University of Guelph, and Guelph is just you know, 20 minutes from.
Speaker 5:Cambridge here, Yep, yeah.
Speaker 3:So now tell us what you do at the Butterfly Conservatory.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we are all about education and conservation. We're a really family-friendly attraction where you can come stroll in our tropical greenhouse it's one of the largest butterfly conservatories in Canada actually and you stroll amongst a bunch of free-flying butterflies, birds. We've got lots of beautiful plants and then on top of that tropical greenhouse experience, we have two galleries that showcase a bunch of critters from around the world. So it's kind of more of like an insectarium museum feel, because there's also non-living specimens on display. But we've got other things like scorpions, observation honeybeehive. We do have a few vertebrate animals, so those are the animals with a backbone. We have poison dart frogs. We do have axolotls now, which are very popular.
Speaker 4:We've got stick insects. We've got lots of things to see. We always have friendly nature interpretive staff who are here to answer questions. We're here to explain what people are seeing, give you fun facts. A lot of our live animals, our live bugs are very friendly and handleable, so we bring them out all throughout the day. People can meet a giant millipede up close. You can hold it, let it walk on your hand. Stick bugs are one of our most favorite as well, and then you know we've got a gift store, we've got a cafe, people can have snacks. We have an outdoor gardens and playground, so you know you can really spend a good few days or sorry ground. So you know you can really spend a good few days or sorry few hours, half a day here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very good. So are these indigenous bugs or are they from abroad? Most of them.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a good question. Most of our animals are not native to Ontario, so we're featuring tropical butterflies I'm sure we'll talk about that in a minute, where they come from and most of our invertebrates are tropical yeah, non-native as well, but we have a few and of course, we do always want to relate it back to what people can see in their backyard. I mean, for example, for the summer we're doing guided bug hunts every day because we have a lovely wildflower meadow out back and we take families outside and we hand out nets and bug catchers and we're just like let's go see what we can see. It's like going on an insect safari. So we feature a lot of big tropical things that you don't always get to meet up close, but we still want to inspire people to look for what the neat things are around us here in Ontario.
Speaker 3:So, as you mentioned, whereabouts do you get your butterflies from then?
Speaker 4:Yes, so we import them from sustainable butterfly farms. Butterfly farming started up as a really unique but efficient way of tropical rainforest conservation. There's butterfly farms all over the world and we import from two, one in Costa Rica and one that's in the Philippines. So every week we get a shipment and I oversee that, so I know exactly how many butterflies we're getting in all the time. We get anywhere from 1,500 to 2,000 butterflies in their pupa stage every week.
Speaker 3:Now, I would know what a pupa stage is, but others would not, so maybe you could kind of elaborate on that. Yes, for sure.
Speaker 4:Because, as you can imagine, it would be hard to send a bunch of adult butterflies overseas by plane. So the best way to transport butterflies are in their third life stage. So they hatch from an egg, they're a caterpillar, the caterpillar eats and grows and then it forms a pupa or a chrysalis and they're in that stage on average about two weeks. They're not having to move around, they're not having to eat, so that is a great stage where they can carefully package them up in a box and send it by plane. You know the shipping process is quite quickly, like we will get the butterfly pupa within two or three days max of it leaving the tropics there and then we can open it up. We have to sort them and then we actually very carefully glue them to sticks so we can suspend them in a window. That is a display of its own really, because people can come right up and see all of these beautiful different kinds of butterfly pupa. You can see butterflies emerging, drying their wings and then taking their first flight into our conservatory.
Speaker 3:Okay. So now, when these butterflies come in, is there and I'm not familiar, to be honest, whether there's potential diseases that can become in from Costa Rica or for the other location you get them from, that could potentially spread to Ontario butterflies, or is that something that's taken into consideration? To be honest, I have no idea in this area.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, that's a fair point and not a lot of people think about that part of it. But the short answer is I is. I mean, yes, there's the potential, but I think what the more or sorry, the more prevalent concern is is about the butterflies or the insects themselves getting out and potentially becoming an invasive species. So we are governed by protocol as put out by the CFIA, so that's the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, and they have what's called containment protocol that we need to follow. Bringing in all of these non-native butterflies and the other insects that we have. We have to follow steps to make sure that they're going to stay within our facility. They're not going to get out, potentially breed, become a problem. So the risk of the butterflies bringing a disease in that could get out is lower. I mean, there's the potential but it's more about the animals themselves becoming a problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the exposure to humans to understand butterflies and insects as a whole is is a benefit to the society as a whole so they can gain understanding of what to watch out for and how to look for things. I know because I was the minister of natural resources when the the emerald ash boar beetle was basically kind of identified in ont in southwestern Ontario and it came in through contaminated skids where they come in from Asia, and they had the larvae inside the skids that were used and now we have that big problem that we have. So it's a big concern and making sure that those sort of things are taken care of. But what happens, or what sort of things do you take? Precautions do you take in regards to potential escapes of butterflies trying to escape or some of the other insects?
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure. Well, one of the first things is that every exit or entrance, as it were, to and from the greenhouse, which is technically the containment area, has like a double door or vestibule system, so that I mean, if a butterfly were to actually fly out the one door, it's not like they are immediately outside. So we have kind of like there's a buffer area. You know what I mean. We have butterfly nets stationed at all of those doors and our staff get very adept at learning how to use a butterfly net to catch any that have gotten into those vestibule areas, because that happens quite a bit. You know, we've got lots of public coming and going, so doors being open and closed a lot and butterflies fly around quite haphazardly so we can bring them back in pretty quickly, quite haphazardly so so we can bring them back in pretty quickly.
Speaker 4:Occasionally a butterfly might make it beyond that vestibule or sometimes they ride out on people. It is amazing the extent to which a butterfly can land on your head or your back and you don't know it's there. So we also have mirrors for people to check themselves over. We we have signs that say just check for a butterfly hitchhiker and make sure it stays here before you go. So the butterflies specifically escaping, it doesn't happen super often. And then there's other protocols that I don't need to get into the nitty gritties of right now. But yeah, things to keep them there.
Speaker 3:So it's not something you have to worry about butterfly smugglers coming in and sneaking them out for the black butterfly market.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, I certainly hope not. And again, there's a lot of staff throughout the building at all points and I think we can probably keep a good eye on it that way. So, yeah, but I hope not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so how do you feed these butterflies then?
Speaker 4:Great question. So I mean, because we want a nice tropical environment, we have lots of plants, and we do want to have as many flowering plants as possible, because a lot of butterflies need to drink the nectar from the flowers. And then, on top of that, I mean we want to have as many different kinds of flowers as possible, because each kind of butterfly can maybe only access a certain kind of butterfly, like you know, or, sorry, different kind of flower. A big swallowtail can drink from a long tubular flower, but a smaller butterfly needs a smaller one Anyway. So diversity is key. Keeping flowers in bloom year round in our Ontario temperate climate is a bit of a challenge, but a lot of tropical butterflies, though, also will drink rotten fruit juice, so we put out plates of bananas and oranges or sometimes whatever fruit like. If we've got some mushy strawberries or something, or melon, you can put that out, and butterflies will land on it and they can drink the juices. So those are the two main ways we feed them.
Speaker 3:Hmm, and they can drink the juices. So those are the two main ways we feed them, Hmm. So now there's I know in Manashwar I'm located, we have. I go by and there's a sign there that says butterfly garden and the local naturalist club maintains it. Is there plants that people on their own can plant that would attract butterflies? Or, as you mentioned, the fruits is there fruit out there that'll attract butterflies?
Speaker 4:Sure, well, in Ontario fruit isn't the best way. I mean, you can kind of experiment, and there are some Ontario butterflies that come to it, but here they have evolved more to drink from flowers. So I would start with plants, and yeah, there's a long list of blooming plants you can put in. Native is always best where possible for a variety of reasons, but not the least of which it's just what our Ontario butterflies have adapted to, and you can attract butterflies in kind of two main ways. You can plant the flowering blooming plants that will give them nectar, but you also want to include some host plants, which are the plants a female will lay an egg on, and then you're actually sustaining a whole new generation, like you're, you know, you're allowing them to go through their whole life cycle and you're essentially growing more butterflies, and that's arguably even more important than putting just some pretty flowers in.
Speaker 3:Right, right. So yeah, and I know well, I think most people know about milkweed and monarch butterflies. Right, yeah, yeah Now, and, Elaine, maybe you can just kind of give us a. So people out there may not know a lot of the difference between a moth and a butterfly.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Can you kind of give us a bit of a breakdown, or listeners out there.
Speaker 4:Sure, we get that question a lot and moths and butterflies are extremely closely related. When it comes down to it, I like to say they're kind of two different sides of the same coin. They are both in the same insect order, lepidoptera, which means they have scales on their wings and actually there's almost like 15 times as many moths as butterflies. So moths actually are the more abundant and diverse group, but they're not all of them. But a lot of them are night flying and we tend not to see or think of them as much.
Speaker 4:But if you're looking at a butterfly or a moth, the best thing to differentiate them is to look at the antenna. Butterfly antenna are long and thin and they tend to end in a club at the end, so they're enlarged at the tip. But moth antenna tend to look feathery or if they're not obviously feathery, they might be upon, like if you have a magnifying glass, or they they taper at the end. They tend not to end in a club. You'll hear other things. Like you know, butterflies are. Butterflies are brightly colored, moths aren't, but that's not always true.
Speaker 3:Luna moths.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I know right. And we get another one called the rosy maple. It's bright pink and yellow, so you can't always go by color. Some people say, well, they hold their wings differently. There's so many exceptions to that. I find that that's just not even helpful. Sure, some moths can look more fuzzy or hairy, but again there's some very streamlined day-flying moths.
Speaker 3:So I always say the best thing is to look at the antenna. Great, so now do you have moths in the conservatory, or just butterflies?
Speaker 4:Yeah, we have two species of moths that we bring in. I would love to have more moths. There's actually there is a day flying moth called the sunset moth that we could potentially get in from Madagascar, which I would love to, but it's hard for me to source. But we have two kinds of silk moths. One is the atlas moth, which is one of the largest ones in the world, which is pretty cool. It comes from the Philippines. It's about the size of a dinner plate, and we also get a Rothschild moth from Costa Rica. I would bring in more moths, but they're just a little harder to display because those ones are nocturnal, so people don't see them very much after they emerge from their cocoon. You can you get a nice look at them when they're in that window where we display them, but after they take off you don't really see them again, so they just don't display as well now need to elaborate on something a little bit more.
Speaker 3:You mentioned about a silk moth, and it's just so our listeners understand what a silk moth is and how silk is developed.
Speaker 4:Yeah, great. So all Lepidoptera larvae, so both butterfly and moth caterpillars, they spin silk. That is how they. It helps them have grip when they're crawling around on plants and they need the silk to help form the pupa in different ways. But there's a whole family of moths, the Saturniids, called the silk moths, because they're the ones who spin that typical silken cocoon that we're taught about when we're younger and so when they make a pupa they're taking it one step further. I like to tell people it's like they're wrapping themselves in a blanket that they've made themselves of silk and it's a very tough case. That protects them and it's a little confusing because there is the silk moth that has been domesticated and we get it silk to make clothing from, but it's actually in a different family, so that can be a little confusing. But I'm referring to a family of silk moths that make a very big, tough silken cocoon.
Speaker 3:Right, so, and that's what I was just, I'm glad you mentioned cocoon, because the cocoon and the pupa is basically essentially the same thing, right? Just so people understand.
Speaker 4:Yeah, totally, I mean. That's why scientists gave the word cocoon to moths that spin this silken covering, and they use the word chrysalis for what a butterfly caterpillar makes, because the chrysalis is hard and smooth and it has no covering. So whether it's a chrysalis or cocoon, you can refer to both of them as a pupa or the pupal stage.
Speaker 3:So the gypsy moth it essentially has like a, would it fall into the silk moth category?
Speaker 4:It does not. It's in a different family, but you're right in that. There are other moth larvae that will use silk to make a cocoon in a covering, but it's just in a slightly different format. But you're right, there are others that wrap themselves in a cocoon.
Speaker 3:Now I'm just throwing this out there. I don't know because. Do you know if anybody's tried to utilize like gypsy moth cocoons? Because when a hatch of gypsy moths come in and eat an entire forest which I've seen and completely amazed you go through and there's not one leaf on any of the trees anywhere. So there must be lots of gypsy moth cocoons there, something like that. Is that potential, or has anybody even looked at that sort of thing? I don't know.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's neat to think about. I'm quite sure somebody has tried and they've. They've um tried it in the past but it doesn't work. And the reason why there's only the one domesticated silk moth that we can um get silk from to make clothing is because its cocoon is one single continuous strand that you can unravel, essentially. But for all of the other moths, like the big atlas moth, I said, and the gypsy or the spongy moth and all these, their cocoon is made up of a bunch of smaller strands. So if you try to harvest it, shall we say, or do any sometimes it just kind of breaks down or it doesn't. It's not going to produce the same quality. And with the gypsy or the spongy moth specifically, sometimes it's hairs. They also spin their hairs into the cocoon. They can cause a bit of irritation. So it just didn't really work as well.
Speaker 3:For the same thing, right, and how does this differ from, say, spider webs, or do you know?
Speaker 4:Well, I know a little bit. Yeah, I don't know all the hardcore biological facts, but the butterfly and moth silk is a little chemically different than spider silk. They produce it from different glands in slightly different ways. As to the chemical makeup, that I don't know. Spiders, their single strand of silk, can be made up of anywhere from four to eight different kinds of silk or chemicals coming out. Moth and butterfly silk, as far as I know, is not as complicated, not as complex, but that's kind of where my understanding ends there, yeah interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know these are just, you know, questions that I'm sure out there people are wondering as much as I am.
Speaker 4:I've never heard about this. Well, and spider's web is definitely stronger, like it's got a lot more yeah, shall we say, hardcore properties to it, so spiders have taken it to the next level or two. But again, that's kind of the basis of my understanding.
Speaker 6:Hi everybody. I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, angelo and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm, now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know, there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 1:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
Speaker 6:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show.
Speaker 7:We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes, All the other guys would go golfing Me, and Garth and Turk and all the Russians would go fishing To scientists.
Speaker 1:But now that we're reforesting and all things freeze.
Speaker 2:it's the perfect transmission environment for line to see To chefs, if any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 6:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are. Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. Find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, here we are in Lindsay with Bill, who's actually? This gentleman has given blood over 230 times 233, yeah, 233, and that's amazing, and you've had some success with Chaga. Tell us what you're dealing with and what you did and what you used.
Speaker 5:Well, I had mild high blood pressure. It wasn't very really high, but I was on medication for a few years. And then I quit drinking coffee and started drinking this tea, the combination tea, the green and the shaga Right, and my medication is gone. Your medication's gone.
Speaker 1:Gone.
Speaker 5:And you couldn't give blood during the other times. Yeah, I could. Oh, you could I could, yeah, but a few times the machine kicked me out. Oh, you could I could, yeah, yeah, so. But a few times the machine kicked me out. Oh, yeah, so, but now it doesn't anymore.
Speaker 3:So you think the green tea and the chaga helped normalize?
Speaker 5:your blood pressures. Oh yeah, oh very good, because it wouldn't be just stopping coffee, it would have to be something else.
Speaker 3:And that's the only thing.
Speaker 5:you did different Yep Well thank you very much for that. My blood pressure is probably that of a 40-year-old man, and I'm 71.
Speaker 3:Oh, very good. Well, that's good to hear. Thank you very much for that, no problem. Okay, thank you. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode. Andalyn, can you kind of give us a bit of a breakdown on monarch butterflies? We briefly covered it, but are there different strains of monarchs?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 4:A lot of people, at least in North America, are familiar with our orange and black monarch that is famous for its long-distance migration, but there are some different species of closely related butterflies that we even get in north america. Another is only one true monarch, which is danaeus plexicus, which is found throughout canada, the us, mexico and sometimes into a bit of central america, um, but there's no different strains or subspecies as of now of that monarch, um, there's just some, some different species, like there's the queen, which is found far farther south, just in the states, there's the soldier, which is again found in the very extreme southern us, and there is, um. There's even a couple others that aren't found in north or south america, like there's one called the African Monarch, which is native to, as you can imagine, african region, but the one that we are most familiar with is the Monarch. There's no, yeah, different strains. It's a little complicated in that the ones in Canada and the US have this long-distance migration which sets them apart from the ones that are found a bit farther south.
Speaker 3:Well, the reason I bring that up is I know I was working an event in Lakefield, ontario, which is kind of what about two hours north-northeast of Toronto, and there was somebody come up to me that was there and it was going into great detail about how he was bringing in monarch butterflies and of a different strain and rearing them and feeding them different strains of milkweed, because I guess all monarchs feed on some strain of milkweed. And I found it a bit concerning that you know, as we talked about escapes and things like that from this particular case, that these sort of monarch butterflies that people are bringing in on their own are not being controlled, and can they interbreed with Canadian monarch butterflies?
Speaker 4:That is, yeah, definitely concerning and we need to be really mindful of that the mass rearing and producing of larvae, whether it's the monarch or any butterfly to then, be like shipped around the world or used for releases or whatnot, is not the best practice.
Speaker 4:And of course people are probably wondering well, you just said you order tropical butterflies from butterfly farms, but that's a much different setup which we can maybe go into later. But yeah, I'm assuming those monarchs that person brought in were likely mass produced in some facility. Tons of larvae, just get them out, ship them around. Who knows part of canada that spreads disease for sure. And with the monarch specifically, there's a parasite called the oe which is being moved around, which is not great and um also spread by the planting of tropical milkweed, which sure milk. That's a host plant for the monarch, but it's tropical, it's not native to Canada. So we should really be focusing on the other species of milkweed that are for here, because tropical milkweed is also being found to move OE around and infect monarchs. So yeah, you got to be careful. It's best to kind of stay local and stick with what should be found in your area.
Speaker 3:Right, so you mentioned about butterfly releases, so are there still groups out there that do releasing of rear and release butterflies?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think there are I don't know of too many specifically anymore because a lot over the years have stopped doing it Um, but and there are some that are still sold as educational kits, you know, for either teachers or other educators or or even families, to be able to watch a caterpillar go through its life stages. But again, I, we don't really advocate that because of all of the um, the, the, yeah, the potential for moving disease around, and it's just in this day and age, with more science now, and they, they have totally done studies on it, everything. It's just we should probably be doing better practices than that yeah, I know I did another podcast and I mentioned this.
Speaker 3:There was, uh, happened to be in an event in Thunder Bay, ontario, and I was the chief administrating officer for the municipality in Thunder Bay Invited me over. He says, oh, jerry, what are you doing tonight before your event tomorrow? I said no, I got nothing planned. He said, well, I'm having a blooming tonight. Would you like to come over? I said, what are you talking about? And he said, well, I've got a night blooming primrose and it's going to bloom tonight and if you'd like to come over and watch it, it's kind of interesting to see. And I was like, what are you talking about? Anyway? So sure enough, I go over and there it is and, just like he said, you can tell that the flower was going to bloom that night and it only blooms at night and all of a sudden it opens right in front of you and it's kind of neat to see.
Speaker 3:But one of the things while I was there, he was showing me in his garden and they had one milkweed plant and he said, yeah, the garden club up here is trying to assist the monarch butterfly by planting milkweeds around, and you know they were selling milkweed seeds. I said, oh yeah, how much. What do you mean? They were selling milkweed seeds. How much did that cost you? It was $10 a seed. So I was shocked that $10 for one milkweed seed and anyway. So they didn't know much about it. But, lo and behold, I made sure that he had an abundance of milkweed plants, which are from northern Ontario, but so there's a lot of groups out there that are trying to assist in making sure. But we want to make sure that sort of thing gets done correctly.
Speaker 4:Oh, yes, that's true. Yeah, so that's where I mean and we do now have more native plant suppliers and greenhouses selling them or the seeds, which is great, but again it would be it's always best to try and buy something from local to you. So if it is Northern Ontario, like, try to get some native milkweed, shall we say, from either a nursery up there or seeds harvested from really nearby. There are several species of milkweed. So, yeah, just kind of like do your research, make sure what you're getting.
Speaker 4:Some do better in different regions than others, so, like you might just even have better success with one over the other, but that is certainly the best thing we can do. Like, a lot of people sometimes want to buy caterpillars or butterflies to release them, to help the butterfly or the species, but that's not what's going to help it long term, for conservation, we need to be putting the habitat there and then you'll be sustaining future generations and it doesn't just benefit those butterflies, it benefits other insects and wildlife. So that's really what people need to do Put in native plants as many as possible, lots of host plants, and let's grow more butterflies and bugs.
Speaker 3:So you mentioned about potential more details about the butterfly farms in Costa Rica, and have you ever been to one and seen how they operate? Like I said, a huge greenhouse sort of thing, or how do they do it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've not had the chance to visit one myself. As it turns out, I will this year in November. I'm really excited to be visiting our Costa Rica one. So if you were to ask me a year from now, I'm really excited to be visiting our Costa Rica one. So if you were to ask me a year from now, I'll be able to say yes.
Speaker 4:But I know how some work and they all can do it a bit differently. Some it could be a large enclosed greenhouse where they have all of the host plants and they bring in some butterflies periodically, let them lay eggs, they let them go and again to be clear, this is all working with non-endangered species and it is sustainable because it doesn't deplete from wild stock and it is all self-sustaining and whatnot. But other butterfly farms it could even be a bunch of smaller, a small community, where they just have some of the plants enmeshed with material to kind of keep some larvae there. When they make the pupa they collect them. So they can do it in a variety of ways. It just kind of depends on the setup and the size of the farm.
Speaker 3:And there are a number of these all around the world. From what I'm hearing, is there any of that sort of structure in Ontario or Canada that you're aware of?
Speaker 4:No, that's something that in our temperate climate hasn't really been feasible. There are some in the southern US, usually Florida, which often rear US like American butterflies, but not in Ontario or Canada and again, because it really was a model for rainforest conservation. That's just where the majority of them are, but, yeah, anywhere there are in Africa, there's a couple in Europe. Apparently there's some in Australia. I haven't been able to source them. Asia, and then Central and South America are really hot spots as well.
Speaker 3:So elaborate a bit more on the facility where you're working at then. So somebody coming in and what are they going to expect and how does it work there, and kind of give us a little bit of a rundown.
Speaker 4:No problem. So we buy admission tickets either at the door or on our website ahead of time, because we do like a lot of places these days. We do timed entry to manage, you know, crowd control and traffic flow and everything, and then you can enter and exit the tropical greenhouse area where all the butterflies are. You can go in and out as many times as you want. It's just some beautiful pathways and benches where people can sit down. You can really take your time. You have to remember.
Speaker 4:It is tropical, so we keep it between 26 to 28 degrees Celsius year round, and in the summer we've been in a heat wave for much of July, it feels like. So that means it's going to be really hot in there as well. So we often say like dress in layers or wear bright colors because butterflies might come land on you. But then again you have the other areas of our building to explore, like the two galleries and um and uh. Average visit for people is an hour and a half or so, just with all the things you can see and do, um, and you can stay as long as you want when you get here right.
Speaker 3:So do you need to bring water or do you have a? Those sort of things that you make available to sell to people, and stuff like that we have a water fountain?
Speaker 4:certainly that everyone can, because, yeah, especially being a tropical kind of facility, we want people to stay hydrated. And then you can buy drinks or water in the cafe as well. But there's a water fountain where you can top up. You can bring water. Sure, no outside food is allowed, where the butterflies are just again kind of related to containment and because of all of our the free flying nature of our animals there. But you can certainly bring water with you, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:So in the humidity, what would it be like in there?
Speaker 4:oh yeah, I, I try to keep it around 80 humidity. Even 90 is great, um, because, again, most of the plants and the butterflies and the other animals, they are tropical, that's what they need. So it is a very warm, welcoming environment and I think it's really a neat place to come to in the winter. We're really happy to be open year round so you can come in the middle of January and if you're sick of the snow and the ice outside the middle of January and if you're sick of the snow and the ice outside, you can come sit in a 27 degree environment and have an escape from all that.
Speaker 4:And I think that's pretty, pretty special.
Speaker 3:Now so do you have other sales and people buy hats and shirts and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:Yeah, our gift store has a pretty wide variety of souvenir type things clothing, games, books, a lot of them educational as well gifty things. We do weddings here too. We do a lot of private events. We're open for day public use but we do a lot of things wedding ceremonies and receptions, bridal showers, celebrations of life. We're really special proposals. People can book to have a private proposal here. So we have often evening events going on as well.
Speaker 3:So do you get to deal with other insects as well? Like this time of year is, I think, specifically a lot of people and I was listening to them again today cicadas and things like that as well. Do you end up with a lot of questions like that and your people can answer stuff?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I mean you know a lot of our staff. They're not all entomologists, they're not all people who are studying insects, but I mean we certainly provide the basic information. All of us are nature nerds to some extent and if there isn't one staff who knows the answer to something, there's usually somebody else like me or someone else around who can talk more about that. But yeah, we love to talk about any bugs we get questions about cicadas, bees, wasps, birds, like you know, we're happy to talk about it all, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:You mentioned you had birds inside the facility as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we have a few. They're mostly small finches. I've got a couple canaries. We have two nicobar pigeons which you might need to look that up if you want to see a photo. They're beautiful green and blue. We got them from the Toronto Zoo. We've got some quail on the ground, but yeah, they kind of they add to the environment. As long as they don't eat the butterflies, I am okay with them being there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's the same. I recall one of the things that I did do research when I was minister was dragonflies in Ontario, because I was looking to try and bring in an official insect of for the province of Ontario, which it didn't have at that time, and I thought that the dragonfly would be a great one for Ontario, and particularly the, the, the dragon slayer dragonfly. Have you ever heard?
Speaker 4:of it. Yes, I have, I would. I would vote for that one as being a great one, because they're also more abundant farther north you go, like in northern Ontario, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they will Hudson's, james Bay lowlands, but I didn't realize that they actually migrate as well and will migrate as far as Florida.
Speaker 4:Okay, I maybe didn't know specifically for that species, but yes, it is true that there are multiple species of dragonfly that are migratory, some maybe not as far as others, and I was just reading an article not that long ago that we're still discovering more species of dragonfly are migratory than we thought.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but the biggest drawback for it moving forward and the whole discussion kind of came to a standstill was because apparently the dragon slayer dragonfly will actually eat monarch butterflies. Yes, so I'm sure you don't have any dragonflies or darning needles and things like that in the conservatory.
Speaker 4:No, and that's why I get that question occasionally. Yeah, like, why don't you have damselflies? Or it would be really cool if you had dragonflies flying around here too. But then, yes, we have to tell people they are insectivores and they would be preying upon the butterflies, which is what most people are coming to see. So that's too much of a conflict of interest.
Speaker 3:Yeah me. I would even tempt them a bit and say well, you know, if we had dragonflies, we'd have to raise mosquitoes in here in order for them to feed on the mosquitoes, and I don't think people want that. Oh, I understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I know that's one of the biggest things as soon as the dragonflies come out, the mosquito population goes down immensely.
Speaker 4:Yeah, totally. Dragonflies are even more efficient at mosquito control than bats.
Speaker 3:Yes, they are, yeah, and people don't realize that. So, and there's so many different strains of dragonfly in Ontario, which was very interesting. So can you tell us? I'm hearing different things about fireflies. Do you know much about them? I hear that they're potentially in trouble. I don't know about the environment that they live in, which may cause them to be in trouble, because I used to see fireflies all the time and I have seen a couple of hatches, one in central Ontario, kind of between Halliburton and Bancroft, where we have a place up there and then I have another spot where we see them. But I heard something to that effect that fireflies were in trouble. But I don't know if you have heard anything like that.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I can speak to that. They are in decline, some quite to the worrisome degree, even more than scientists thought. I mean it's a bit of a sad story. I mean, you know, like most of our insect populations are in decline, which is extremely concerning, fireflies being one of them, and it's a lot. It's always due to pesticides we use too many chemicals. But for also fireflies specifically, the first part of their life is as larvae. They hunt snails and slugs in the leaf litter and we as humans tend to want to make things too clean and tidy and we disrupt that habitat. So that also doesn't help. And then in their adult stage, as flying, glowing insects, light pollution has also had a negative effect on them. It disrupts their ability to communicate and find mates and whatnot. So it's chemical use, habitat loss and light pollution are kind of the top three things for their decline.
Speaker 3:And I didn't realize that you mentioned snails and slugs that they consume.
Speaker 4:Yes, they are predators. They're also predatory as adult fireflies, although some adult fireflies apparently don't feed at all. But it's just another example of insects that depend on other insects and invertebrates for food, and we need lots of invertebrates because they're food for everything else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so how do they feed on them? I don't understand, I don't know.
Speaker 4:Sure, to describe a larval firefly, it would sound pretty crazy. They're bizarre looking things like a shield, they're covered in shields, they're really armored. They're just kind of long and thin. You hardly even see any legs, but they have a very pointy head. So from what I understand they I mean, if it's a slug, that's not as difficult they can kind of just walk up and they bite it in the back of the head. But for a snail they have to kind of like climb up, get past the shell and, yeah, they kind of go and bite them at the back of the head to kind of start to paralyze them and then they just feast on them.
Speaker 3:I had no idea. Yeah, there you go. So for people who have concerns with slugs in their gardens, fireflies is potentially one of the answers, if you can find a way to it. Now, how would somebody attract fireflies to their garden to deal with their slug issue?
Speaker 4:Sure. Well, again, I think the main thing would be you have to let it go a little messy. You need to leave the leaves. You know, that's something we hear a lot, but it really is true. You have to leave some debris, I mean even fallen dead tree or bark or whatnot the leaves, or, sorry, the plants themselves, like leaving stems or just snip them and let them fall down, but that's a big part. And then no chemicals. But attracting fireflies is rather tricky because they're predatory. So as long as you just kind of make the habitat as welcoming as possible, then you just kind of have to hope that adults would be nearby and they lay their eggs and then they come and find it.
Speaker 3:Interesting. Now, if there's something there's, suggestions you have, because I know there is huge concern everywhere and everybody I talk to about ticks and Lyme disease. Yes, any suggestions along those lines how to deal with those issues?
Speaker 4:Well, I could offer you some To deal with it in terms of trying to keep ticks off your property or dissuade them. I don't know how to do that. That's too difficult, sorry. Ticks are too easy to be moved around or by other animals and they're found in all different kinds of habitats, so you're not going to be able to kind of keep them from finding your property. But you can protect yourself in many ways. Um, I mean, I, I go outside all the time and I've just gotten in the habit now just always tuck your pants in your socks, um just try to keep them from sensing the CO2 from your skin. You can wear DEET, but I also find natural essential oils like lemon eucalyptus are also effective, and you just kind of have to get used to doing a tick check after you come inside and um be aware and uh yeah, unfortunately they're just spreading. They're on the rise.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Well, I've tried. I've made suggestions to a few about about the potential because, as you mentioned, about other animals moving them around, if there was, you know, something we could put in our bird feed, that the chipmunks and the squirrels and last night I'm watching the rabbits eat the sunflower seeds probably on the ground from the bird feeder that they could eat, to turn them off them. It certainly would help decrease them being moved around. Quite a bit, I would think. But that's something for other people to think about.
Speaker 4:Well, one thing I can offer up is that possums have been found to prey upon ticks quite heavily, so they've even been nicknamed little tick vacuums. So if we could make more habitat welcoming for possums, then they could help keep those maybe under control.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had another person that said that banting roosters consume ticks immensely and so there was jurisdictions in Ontario that were allowing people to have banting roosters in their yard just to reduce the tick population. But I've never verified that, although this person had a pretty large organization of about I think his database was about 45,000. So, hopefully, but I found that interesting to hear. Yeah, wow, Well, and the insect world is so interesting. You know, I briefly mentioned cicadas and that time of the year that we're hearing them, but I happened. It was right on the driveway I was coming in and there was a wasp on the back of a cicada and the two were just going at it. The cicada was trying to get rid of the wasp and I believe the wasp was trying to lay an egg on it, if I remember correctly. Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 4:I am One. I'm quite jealous that you got to witness that, because I have never seen that behavior and I would really like to. What you were seeing was a type of wasp. It's called the cicada killer because it doesn't lay its egg on the cicada per se. It actually was trying to paralyze it and carry it back to its underground nest where the eggs were laid and the larva will feed upon the cicada. But the cicada killer wasp is one of our largest and it's native and if people see it they often get quite alarmed because of its size. But I mean, it doesn't hurt us, it's not going after us. It's just trying to find the adult cicadas to feed its young. But I have yet to see one hunt a cicada. I'd love to see that.
Speaker 3:Well, it was amazing. It was spinning around and it was like a real battle going on in the driveway and, yeah, it was something to see. Yeah, but these are all things that, uh, people, if they just take the time to enjoy and listen and see in nature the things that are out there, they take a much better chance to enjoy it. And and you're you know, your butterflyfly Conservatory is one way to enjoy that. What else can people see here? What kind of hours do you have there?
Speaker 4:Sure, so we're open almost every day. We just close on Mondays for part of the year. So just kind of check the website to be sure. But otherwise we're usually open 10 to 5. Sometimes we have extended hours for holidays and whatnot. And then last admission is at 4 o'clock because, again, you want at least an hour to enjoy the facility. So it is highly recommended to get your tickets on our website in advance to make sure you get your time, because we have a limited number of tickets. And then, yeah, you can arrive anywhere between 10 to 4, stay as long as you'd like. If you come on a sunny day, the butterflies are going to be more active, right? So you can keep that in mind. I mean, they're always going to be flying around, but I say they're solar-powered, so the sunnier it is, the more they're buzzing around everywhere. And, yeah, our staff would be happy to bring out an animal for you guys to meet. You can ask lots of questions and yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you mentioned the giant centipede as one. Yeah, so and Lynn, how do you support the facility? I mean, it must cost a fair bit to bring in all these insects and then keep the temperature and like in cold weather and things like that. How do you financially keep things in check there at the facility?
Speaker 4:Yeah, we get minimal to no funding. So it's just, yeah, we're kind of self-sustaining. It's all based on our ticket sales and the events we do and purchases from our gift store and cafe and whatnot. So you know, we really are grateful for the support of people who keep coming out. We have memberships available. If someone comes and they love it so much, then you can get a year long membership so you can come as many times as you'd like. And but we, yeah, we're, we're just a independently owned local organization. And but, yeah, but we, yeah, we're just an independently owned local organization. And but yeah, you know, bringing in tropical butterflies and the heating costs, they all, that's quite a bit.
Speaker 3:So do you have a newsletter or things like that as well?
Speaker 4:We don't have a super regular newsletter right now. We're really active on social media, so if you do visit our website, which is cambridgebutterflycom, you would be invited to sign up for emails if you want. But you're also probably best to go to our Facebook or our Instagram, because we're always posting videos and photos, because so much of what we do it's very visually appealing. So we try to post lots of fun pictures and videos so you get snippets of what goes on here and what you can see. That would be kind of the best way to keep in touch.
Speaker 3:Very good. So, anne-lynne. So how can people find out more information or details about the Cambridge Butterfly Conservatory?
Speaker 4:So go to our website for a lot of information. You know like frequently asked questions what should I bring? And to get your tickets? So that's wwwcambridgebutterflycom, but you could also give us a call if you want to talk through anything. Our number's on there too. People can email me. I'm the naturalist here, so I'm kind of the go-to if it comes down to an ID question. Like I saw a bug in my yard. I don't know what it is. I love getting pictures from people if they want to send a photo or anything like that, but I think our website definitely has a lot of the key info to get you started.
Speaker 3:Very good. Well, thanks very much. We really appreciate all the information and I found it very interesting and enlightening and learning quite a bit about butterflies in your facility and I think that this is just something a little bit different that people are learning out there under the canopy. Thanks very much, Angela.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you. It was so much fun to be able to talk bugs with you.
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