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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 114: Maps, Mushrooms, and Getting Unlost
Ever wanted to move through the woods with real confidence—no glowing screen, no second-guessing, just clear decisions and steady steps? That’s the energy fueling this week’s journey under the canopy, where we blend a love of seasonal living with the practical art of orienteering and a thoughtful look at chaga’s place in everyday wellness.
We kick things off in early-fall Ontario: an off-grid chaga camp to prep, a simple generator humming at night, and a grocery plan for a rotating crew of helpers. The home apothecary is buzzing—apples, mints, sage, lemon balm, sumac, mullein, burdock, and milk thistle are all in play as we build a winter toolkit from the land. Then we welcome Nevin French, president of Orienteering Ontario, who unpacks the sport’s core: reading hyper-detailed maps, using a thumb compass as a tool (not a crutch), and choosing routes that fit your strengths. We talk strategy, from “take seconds to save minutes” to relocating with big, reliable features like hills, creeks, and shorelines.
From local beginner courses to World Championships, orienteering thrives on community. You’ll hear how clubs across Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Collingwood, Parry Sound, and Kingston make navigation accessible, with loaner compasses, easy-to-learn maps, and events for families, hikers, and athletes alike. We touch on safety—whistles, tick awareness, smart footwear—and how GPS fits as a post-race learning tool, not as a navigator. There’s even a tour of unique experiences, like racing across the Bay of Fundy’s ocean floor at low tide and Hamilton’s Raid the Hammer along the Niagara Escarpment.
Threaded through the episode are grounded stories about chaga: field-tested routines, a father’s blood-pressure shift with daily tea, and an MS journey marked by improved clarity and gait. While everyone’s path is personal, the theme holds: nature teaches, if we pay attention. Ready to build your outdoor confidence and find your line through the woods? Press play, subscribe for new journeys each week, and share your best “got unlost” story with us in a review—your tips might guide the next listener into the forest with a steadier step.
Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola. And I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast.
SPEAKER_11:That's right. Every Thursday, Ann and I will be right here in your ears, bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio.
SPEAKER_02:Hmm. Now what are we going to talk about for two hours every week?
SPEAKER_11:Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.
SPEAKER_01:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors. From athletes.
SPEAKER_11:All the other guys would go golfing. Me and Garchom Turk, and all the Russians would go fishing.
SPEAKER_10:The scientists. And now that we're reforesting away things, it's the perfect transmission environment to line with these.
SPEAKER_01:Chefs, if any game isn't cooked properly, marinated for you will taste it.
SPEAKER_02:And whoever else will pick up the phone. Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.
SPEAKER_11:Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_09:But they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Olach, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Okay, as always, we want to thank all our listeners here in uh Rosk, right across Canada, Ontario, all through the States, around the world, Switzerland, Ghana, Ghana, Trinidad, Tobago, Friends and Bermuda, the Bahamas as well. You know, it's um it's that time of year when the colors start changing, but I think we're a little bit ahead. Normally by Thanksgiving weekend in Ontario, where we go up in central Ontario, which is kind of halfway between Bancroft and Halliburton, for those looking on a map, kind of about two and a half hours north north east of Toronto. It's Thanksgiving weekend when we see peak colors, but I'm telling you, I would say that I was out through the bush yesterday, and the colors were certainly uh prevalent everywhere and and in high change mode, let's say. I think the the dry fall and the dryness that we've had uh is is having them change a little bit early. But I want to do a shout out to Cheryl and Halliburton, a faithful listener, who talked to me Tuesday last and brought up some questions and really enjoyed the last uh podcast where she talked uh where I talked about the Chaga and she brought up a lot of details about it. But it's that time of the year as well. Not only the color is changing, but I'm getting ready to head up uh for my Chaga camp where I'll do my picking. And normally I get up in September, and what we do is uh I do an assessment of the camp is uh uh uh the propane in the tank. So we got uh a hundred pounder and plus I have a thirty-pound backup. Not only that, but I also check to make sure oh the the the the stove uh pipe is is good for the for the sauna, because that's uh we use the sauna as a uh cleanup area for ourselves instead of a shower or anything. We're off grid, completely off-grid in this location. I have a generator that uh just a small like a thousand watt one that we use to run lights and some of the some basic things so at nightwork works out good for us. And uh, you know, and then I assess the camp, okay, do I need paper towels, do I need paper plates, and all the rest of it. But I've just been so busy this year that I haven't had a chance to. So I'm gonna have to kind of wing it and wait till I get up to camp up north to have a see uh what I need and then take it from there. But uh I started doing the grocery buying, which I do the meal plan, the grocery buying and everything, and I think we've got on average about five or six in camp on an ongoing basis. So some come, some go, with a lot of helpers from a lot of people, and we really enjoy and appreciate all the support that we get from everybody. Not only that, but my own living apothecary is that uh time of year where we're doing our harvesting. And let me see, you know, lavage I've harvested about a month ago. And lavage is a great, uh it's kind of a celery, uh peppery celery kind of substitute that goes in great in soups and stews and things like that. But also our apples are ripe and starting to fall or have been falling, so we've been harvesting them. My mints, both my uh spearmint and peppermint and sage and lemon balm are all getting ready. And as we have had Bev Delonardo on the uh podcast, putting those and taking those seeds up so we'll do some new plants and some new areas that will seed with those kind of seeds to see if we can get them coming up in different areas as well. But not only that, and a lot of the herbalists will tell you that things like sumac. Now, sumac is is about prime right now and great tasting, makes a great tea, but other things like mullen, burdock, milk, thistle, etc. etc. Time to harvest a lot of that stuff so you can move forward with your own apothecary to to help us through all the winter stuff. And today we have uh a special guest coming on, and it uh we're gonna talk about being out in the bush or under under the canopy as always. And I know when I was back in Cubs and Scouts and Venturers, we spent a lot of time doing this with my scoutmaster, Ken Ridge, who was uh one of the best around, great guy, great building block, as my mentioned in the past in my life. But I have the president of Orienteering Ontario, Nevin French from Toronto on to talk about the sports. Welcome to the podcast, Nevin.
SPEAKER_07:Thank you so much. I'm really appreciate uh you having on having me on this and uh really love uh the fact that you promote uh being out outdoors in the in the woods and in the wild, and that's something I love doing and and our sport really encourages people to get out into the woods as much.
SPEAKER_09:Well, that's great. Well, uh Nevin, tell us a bit about yourself. Like, where are you recording from right now, for example?
SPEAKER_07:Well, I'm actually recording in uh from Halifax. I'm here for here for work, uh, but I'm I'm from Toronto, and uh I'm actually this weekend in Halifax on Saturday gonna go out and uh get some oriented. Uh there's a little event going on just outside of town here. So one of the things I love doing when if I'm traveling across the country, I'm a trail runner, so I love to get for a little run um either in town, uh like Halifax has a great place, uh Point Pleasant Park, or just outside of uh town as well. One of the things I really noticed this as we were landing, a lot of our cities in Canada, you can get into the woods and into the nature just on the outskirts of town. Yep. And that's something I I really appreciate and love.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, when I was, as I mentioned when I was in Cubs, not so much in Cubs, but Scouts and Ventures, I had a great Scoutmaster, Ken Ridge, great guy. It was a building block, and we spent a lot of time essentially well, to a lot of listeners who don't know uh what is orienteering? And I'll get into it a bit.
SPEAKER_07:Sure thing. Um So I I do uh competitive orienteering, so it's like a cross-country event, except instead of uh having a marked trail going from start to finish, you have to navigate yourself to find a series of checkpoints in the woods. So you're using a really detailed map, sometimes a compass which you use as a tool, and you've your challenge is to pick the best route between these checkpoints and get around the course. So it's a mental puzzle as much as it's a race. And when I say race, um really people you're competing against yourself, and you're really about kind of how much you're pushing and enjoying yourself. More than anything, you're just enjoying being outside. Some people take it really seriously, some people just really enjoy this as a way to get out and do a hike in the woods.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, so essentially it's a lot of map and compass work, if I correct?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, really focus on the map more than the compass. Some some people really get fascinated with this compass because it's you know, it's it's a cool little thing, but we really tell people really learn how to read a map. And an orienteering map is a really specialized version of a map, but it also helps just your general navigating after that. So, you know, after getting into orienteering, using a topo map and say Algonquin Park as a piece of cake.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, I know um a friend of mine, Doug, passed away now, but Doug was in the Navy and they did the same thing, uh map and compass work orienteering. And one of the things that he said, you know, they took us out and they gave us a map and compass and they told us to go ahead and do all this. And he said the biggest lesson that they learned at the entire day was because they all got lost. And the reason they got lost was because they were using a map that was 50 years old. And they didn't check their map dates to find out that guess what, all the logging trails or all those trails are all overgrown now. And so the first lesson, and every time I talk about this, he used to bring up the fact that when he was in the Navy, that was the number one lesson learned. Check the date of the map to make sure it's updated, because you could be dealing with some information that's well out of date.
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. And it it's, you know, maps are kind of pieces of art. And so a mapper is gonna decide what needs to go on there. And then exactly as you said, in terms of the date of the map, because some things will change, you know, there may be new buildings, those trails are overgrown, some deers are gonna create some uh some tiny trails that aren't gonna be on the map. Yep. But you need to know, okay, what's not changing? That big hillside is on the map, and then you can navigate by that. There may be a creek on the map. Okay, I can navigate on that. I've got my compass, so I know which way is north and I can get oriented. And then even if you've got a really out-of-date map, you probably have some information there that you can navigate with.
SPEAKER_09:Right.
SPEAKER_07:And then you've got to figure out okay, what can I count on? Okay, this trail is definitely on the map. This one is not. Um, and how can I find the best way from A to B?
SPEAKER_09:Okay. So, Nevin, your position with Orienteering Ontario. Um, you're the president. How long have you been the president for?
SPEAKER_07:Uh a couple years now uh with Orienteering Ontario, and I'm also active with the Toronto Orienteering Club. Okay. So Orienteering Ontario, the umbrella organization, there we've got a bunch of clubs uh throughout the province, and we work with them to promote the sport.
SPEAKER_09:Okay, so roughly how many clubs and where how broad are they? Are they like in Thunder Bay and Timmins and Sault Ste.
SPEAKER_07:Marie or something or we're working on that. We've got clubs in Ottawa, Toronto, the Hamilton area, Perry Sound, and Collingwood, and a new club in uh the Kingston area as well. And uh we're looking at kind of developing some more. The one in Ottawa is super, super active. The one in Kingston is just getting uh their feet underground, and uh Hamilton in Toronto is really active as well.
SPEAKER_09:So orienteering, so then are these clubs all competitive clubs or just people out uh to learn how to use a map and compass and those kind of things?
SPEAKER_07:It's a bit tricky that line between competition and you know, as I said, you're most people are competing against themselves. Uh for orienteering in our sport, our events are are both recreational and competitive. So it as opposed to someone who say is say really enjoys long distance canoeing, it's easy for them just to go out and do a multiple hour canoe uh canoe trip and then they're out there and doing it. A lot of people do that, but very few people do actual, say, long distance canoe racing. So at an event at Orienteering, you might find people who are just going for a good hike and are checking out for just maybe the second or third time, and then you may actually have people on the national team who are taking it really seriously and using this as a really hard workout. So both of them are at the same event.
SPEAKER_09:Okay, so uh there's a national team. Does that mean there's international events with this?
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. There's uh there's a world championship, there's a national team. Uh this summer. Um, sorry, um, orienteering is is in a series of events called the World Games. So that's kind of a step below the Olympics in terms of a lot of sports that aren't at the Olympics. Um, as we know, a lot about the Olympics is about what you can watch on TV. And historically, orienteering is not a television-friendly sport because people are off running around the woods by themselves. With GPS nowadays, it's actually a lot more TV friendly and you can watch the dots on the map. But um, yes, there's a world, there's a the world champs, there's uh world um world cups. And uh way back in the 90s, in the early 90s, there was actually a World Cup hosted by the Toronto Club in the Ganaraska Forest, um just east of uh east of Toronto.
SPEAKER_09:Right. Now I know a friend of mine who's the best man at my wedding, Bert. Uh Bert uh spends well, he's had over fifty years with the Air Cadets, and one of the things that he does is actually uh do some orienteering in the Gany. And they have a competition there, but it's some of the rules for the Air Cadet competition might be different from yours because his squad was disqualified because they didn't have military boots on. They actually had hiking boots on in order to run through to do their runs through the through the bush. Is there certain rules uh that people need to abide by?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, and actually, well, I'll get back to the military aspect of it. There the the big rule is, of course, no GPS. You gotta use your own smarts to get around the course. Yep. W with GPS, it's actually a great tool in terms of tracking to find out what you did out there. So that's the big thing in terms of you can't use it to navigate, but you can use it to learn how to navigate better afterwards. Um, your friend in the cadets and that military aspect, this is a great way for people uh in the forces to really learn how to be a leader out there. I actually coached orienteering in the Canadian forces for a few summers, uh, coaching a military team that was racing in a NATO competition, and orienteering was one of the sports. And afterwards, I remember one captain coming up and telling me, you know, the pistol shooting, the rifle shooting is really fun, but if I cannot get my troops lost in the woods in the swamps, they really respect me for that. And it really teaches them a great skill around them being a leader in the forces.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, Bert Bert was really praising the orienteering maps. The orientation maps that you utilize are somewhat different, are they from uh from regular maps, are they?
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. The big thing with them is that they're hyper-detailed. So versus a topple map you're using out in the woods, which will be one to twenty thousand or one to fifty, you only have really big features and things like roads and that sort of thing. Really frustrating to navigate because uh it's just hard to know what's going to show up on the map. The orienteering maps tend to be one to one to ten thousand, and they've had an actual mapper out there using LIDAR uh material and then actually walking through the train, making sure that everything's actually on the map. And so there'll be things like streams and smaller trails and boulders and that sort of thing. And then as you're navigating, you need to decide what is useful. So if it's a matter of running down the trail, look for a big boulder, and then no, I have to look for a valley to the right, well, that boulder is going to be on the map. And as I said, the mapper, it's a bit of an art. They need to decide what goes on the map if it's relevant or not.
SPEAKER_09:Right. Yeah, and so where do you where does one get these orienteering maps from? Where can you order them?
SPEAKER_07:Well, they're produced by the clubs. So if you take a look at orienteeringOntario.ca, you can uh find a club near them or contact us with Orienteering Ontario and we'll see in terms of what uh what's available and of course uh what do you have permission to go on? Sometimes they're in these maps or say conservation area or parks, and it's easy for that. But if it's a private land, uh then permission, of course, is really important.
SPEAKER_09:So, Nevin, what does somebody who's never been involved in orienteering before, what do they need to do or to have to get involved?
SPEAKER_07:Well, I think first of anything, a really a great enjoyment of getting outdoors and and uh a spirit of uh not being worried if you get a bit lost. So, say you go to a local event, um the clubs are super friendly. There's usually a clinic to help you get going. You need to dress for the outdoors, be it if you're a trail runner or if you're a hiker, then get ready for that. Uh get ready to get your feet dirty. Um, because you'll be going right through the mud or off trail through uh through the woods as well. So these events will have a beginner-friendly uh setup, and the easier courses tend to be on trails or on major handrails like that to get you around. And then the the more advanced courses will be off the trail through the woods, and you really have to kind of know what you're doing in terms of of how to navigate and use those maps. But it's it's a pretty simple thing to jump in, and then um then it's a lot of trial and error and just learning how to go.
SPEAKER_09:Right. So you mentioned about these courses, and I and I know uh I spent uh I've I actually hiked about uh several hundred miles of the Bruce Trail. How do you find these courses? Uh uh are they listed at the clubs with uh Orienteering Ontario or how?
SPEAKER_07:Yep, they are say there are specific events. So a few of the clubs have permanent courses out there that you can go and check out, but often they'll be or mostly they're they're for the specific events who'll uh who'll get them set up. And then yep, sorry, go ahead. No, that's okay. Go ahead. And then how do you navigate? That's one of the things that we always tell people is um you can navigate the speed of what you can move. So some people want to run really fast and they can run faster than they can think. And other people just kind of mosey along and they never make a mistake and they go absolutely uh absolutely accurate around the course and they'll end up beating the the other guys who are running in the wrong direction. So it's you know, it's it's a bit like we've we've had people compare it to golf. If someone is a big and strong person, they can really hit the ball, but they are probably sacrificing the accuracy. And then there's other people who can work on their skill and they won't have the power and the strength, but holy cow, are they ever accurate. So people have to pick um pick their strengths around that.
SPEAKER_09:I recall when I was in scouts, did scouting, we had uh competitions as well. And what they used to do would be they would give you the map, you'd use your own compass, of course, and they would give you the instructions uh in there. And when you got to a site, uh point turning point or uh a point where you register, there was actually like a triangle there that they had um I think it was like different punches inside it or numbers or configurations that you took or stamps that you put on your information to show that you were actually at that site. Do you understand? Have you do you know is that the same sort of thing that they do?
SPEAKER_07:No, we are using modern technology. So there's a little transponder. So as you go around, I should probably should have mentioned this, at an event, you're gonna be issued this little transponder that you carry. And then when you get to what the checkpoints or controls, what they're called, uh you basically you punch or you just put it, you put your transponder into the little receiver, and it's gonna beep and recognize that you were there. The reason that's important is that there when you finish, you then download the information of you going around the course. That's not gonna have your GPS of where you went, but it is gonna show that you went to the the right checkpoints in the right order. So that's really important, and it's gonna have the time of where you spent. And so when you take a look at results later, you can be like, holy cow, one to three, I was absolutely flying. And then from two to four, holy cow, did I ever make mistakes? But um, most of the events are point-to-point, you have to go in a certain era, certain order. Some of them you can make up your own order to get around the course, and then you've got to kind of pick your best route from one checkpoint to another.
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SPEAKER_09:Okay, we're with Bev here in Lindsay. And Bev, you've got some experience with Chaga that you'd like to share with some people. Tell us uh two stories. Start with your father's story.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, Derry. Um well, um my dad had mentioned to me that he was struggling with his blood pressure and he'd gone on meds and it wasn't bringing it down. He was running around 180, 185, and wasn't enjoying that at all. And um and so I suggested that he try the chaga tea because I knew some other people that had had good experience with it, and I knew my own experience with it. He started doing the chaga tea every day. Um he stuck it in with his coffee, so he only had to drink one thing a day, and within three weeks he had dropped from 180 to 140, which he was really excited about. But what he was even more excited about was that about three to four weeks after that, he had gone down to 125. So we're really grateful for the difference the chaga has made with his blood pressure.
SPEAKER_09:There wasn't any other medications or changes, this had the change?
SPEAKER_00:No, this was the actually the only shift. He didn't shift anything diet-wise, physical exercise-wise at all. The only thing he added in that he hadn't been doing before was chaga.
SPEAKER_09:And he put it in his coffee, I believe. I forgot. And he put it in his coffee. Very good. Okay, and you have your own story now. I have my own story.
SPEAKER_00:So I I started on chaga when I um I met Jerry just as I realized that I was going into a relapse of multiple cirrhosis, that I I had not relapsed for approximately 25 years, so I was a little startled about it and wanted to get on it. And um, so I was in the process of changing a lot of things so that I could um go back into relapse rather than dealing with the MS symptoms. And so I did change diet and I stopped physical exercise so that my body would have more rest and I added the chakra in. And within within a I mean within five days, I noticed that the nerve sensory issues I was having in my legs was already settling down, and within about three weeks I had the strength to walk unassisted again. And I am about three months in now, and um I have um taken a 10-day break from it a couple of times just to, you know, you know, just so that my body, you know, can stay balanced, you know, without it. But every time I go back on it, I um I can feel the difference in mental clarity and in the way my nerves are communicating, and I'm I'm walking very, very well now.
SPEAKER_09:Very good. Well, thank you very much for sharing your story with us.
SPEAKER_00:No, thanks for thanks for hollering me and asking me to try a free cup that one farmer's market morning.
SPEAKER_09:Well, I'm glad it's working out for you. Thanks, Jerry. Okay. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about, and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier. By giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code CANopy. C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode. Now, uh and I had friends that actually they um they would do walking tours in England and Scotland. And so what they did was uh they would get their information and then they walk would basically walk from town to town over lands and and through fields and things like that. Is there similar, you know, and in the same with bike riders, I know quite a few bike riders that actually will go to Italy to ride their bikes or through the Swiss uh the Alps and those sort of things. Is it similar for orienteering that that they have different courses or competitions around that people go to?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, there's there's competitions um and events all all over, especially in Europe. Orienteering is originally a Scandinavian sport. It started in Sweden after World War II as a way to train the army, and that's one of the reasons we've got a lot of rules because they like a lot of rules in the army. Um and then it came to Canada in the 60s and 70s through European immigrants. And so orienteering is probably biggest in Sweden. If you remember those old participaction commercials saying the average 60-year-old Swede is fitter than the 30-year-old Canadian, well, orienteering was part of that kind of promotion of outdoor fitness that we saw in Canada. So Scandinavia is where this sport is probably at the biggest, and then uh other parts of Europe, uh, they have big events as well. And it's really fascinating. I've I've done this all over Canada and and in um in the US and a bit in Europe, and it's really interesting to be, say, in Interior BC and how different the woods are than, say, Gatineau Park. And as you're going through, it's you know, it's interesting all the rock features that you've got to navigate with, looking for cliffs and boulders, versus out there, it's kind of a mixture of this open plain and grasslands and uh and really big hills at times. So as you do this sport, you really learn how to navigate and be able to navigate with different um different types of terrain as well.
SPEAKER_09:Now I recall about a year ago watching a movie that I would think would be very much orienteering. It was kind of a uh a race in one of the Caribbean countries or in Central America, where they did a lot of training for, and then there was cross country sort of thing. Is is that was that promoting orienteering, or is that was that an orient do you know what I'm talking about?
SPEAKER_07:I know exactly what you're talking about, and uh I'm trying it is called uh Arthur the King, that movie about uh about adventure. Racing. Right. And adventure racing or multi-sport racing is really a big beefed up version of orienteering. Yeah. And if you remember a few years ago, there were events called the Eco Challenge. And again, these are just really big versions of the same sport because they're navigating those races, the like the that Arthur the King movie, they're using, you know, mountain biking and paddling in addition to trekking, but they're really also still trying to navigate and getting from A to B. So Orienteering is a great kind of starter for that. Um, and then advancing into that adventure racing. Um and they actually had the North American Championships of that this summer in uh Par in Sudbury area. Uh Orienteering Ontario is one of the sponsors of that, and uh was really fascinating to see how those races did. Now, those races are are, as I said, a lot bigger and longer, sometimes over multiple days. Um, but the core of that, how to get from A to B through the woods is still the same.
SPEAKER_09:So Orienteering is basically just on land, and it doesn't include any traversing across waterways and things like that as well?
SPEAKER_07:It really depends. I know in uh in Ottawa they would have a canoe orienteering event uh in Gatneau Park, going uh uh in some of the lakes there with a whole bunch of islands. And it's interesting, like when I uh will go on a canamp on canoe camping in Algonquin Park and navigating with the map, and it's a really different feature to be able to navigate from the boat um versus in the land. You're using the same skills, but as a navigator, you've got to think about okay, what can I see? What kind of speed am I going at, and how can I recognize that?
SPEAKER_09:Uh-huh. Now, is orienteering basically a uh just a seasonal sport, or is it something that's done all year?
SPEAKER_07:It's it's kind of done all year, depending on the weather. Um again, if you don't mind getting your feet wet and a bit chilly, uh, then this takes place. In Southern Ontario, we have an the Ontario Cup, which is a series of very casual events uh in and around Hamilton, Toronto, Southern Ontario. And I know in uh the Ottawa area they have events throughout the winter as well.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, I know. So you mentioned that boulder on on some of the maps that are listed on the Ontario maps, where all of a sudden in the wintertime, how much how accurate can those maps be then if they're snow-covered boulders and and the streams are covered over and things like that?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, absolutely. And a good event director is gonna take that into account. And they're gonna look and say, okay, um, they're mostly gonna be on trails. Let's keep the courses focused on that. Um and uh knowing what the competitor you want to keep it fair for everyone. So again, the event directors will take this into account uh in how they put their course together.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, I recall uh I was up with my uncle, and uh we were at uh staying at my aunt's husband's trap camp, and we were quite a ways into the bush, and and I had uh I I always carried map and compass with myself. That was long before GPS was uh units were available. Anyways, I I recall I said uh to my uncle, we were out uh down a trail. I said, look, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna map and compass across here and I'll pick up this road here about a mile away. And he was like what did you say? He because he used to work um it was uh it was rescue. He used to do uh remote wildness rescue where he would do they would send him in and he said, Really? He says none of the guys I know would be able to do. I said, Yeah, I'm just gonna go across. It's only around that small lake there, and then I'll catch back up here, and then I'll I'll meet you back over there. You can just take these uh these skitter trails where I'm going cross country, and he was quite shocked. So, Devin, where else can people utilize a lot of this um orienteering uh expertise?
SPEAKER_07:Well, you just described a great example of this in terms of knowing what you described in terms of I'm just gonna take the compass across the woods and hit something. In orienteering, we call that rough compass because you know you're gonna come out at the road or at the lake on the other side. It doesn't matter that you're not perfectly accurate because you're gonna be able to relocate when you come out the other side. Um, and some people will say, hey, that's the best way to navigate. I'm just gonna go through the woods and keep straight. Your friend there who was taking the little trails and doing it like that, he's sticking to trails. Depending on the speed of his navigating, he might beat you there or you may beat him. Um, in terms of where the events are, as I said, checking out orienteeringOntario.ca, we'll have a whole bunch of uh listings there of what the events are, and you can always people can always just contact us directly and happy to reach out. I wanted to flag a couple programs, just if you'd let me. Sure. Uh one is uh a really great kids program that's out of uh the the the club called Don't Get Lost in the Hamilton area. It's called the Adventure Running Kids Program. So it's been going about 15 years. It's a bit like Timbit's hockey or soccer, oh yeah, in that is for young kids, and it is not a competition. It is about getting the kids outdoors and enjoying getting muddy and getting a sense of adventure. So they do a lot of games. Like, say there'll be a there'll be a drill on working on balance. Well, they're gonna get in the woods and find a tree log and say, okay, this game, we're gonna do a little relay of running over the rock, the log, and really working on kids' balances. And it, you know, some of these kids will go in and become competitive runners or maybe an orienteer, but more than anything, they're just gonna enjoy getting out in the woods and enjoying that. So that's how old are we how old would these kids be? I think it's like eight to twelve. Okay. Very good. So that's that's a really great program. And then one other event also near Hamilton is called Raid the Hammer. So it's in late October, it's in teams of three, and it's about a half marathon distance, and it really shows off the awesome terrain around the Niagara Escarpment, and it's one of my favorite events to do every year.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, I know one of the with my own sons, Josh and Garrett, uh, we always spend time in the bush, and I always show them and I always make sure they have a compass with them so they can go. But so many people are afraid of the bush. And they're afraid to go in. And I've met so many people that so long as they can see the road or that trail or things like that, they're fine. But you get them off, they just kind of panic. And with a lot of it, I think it's just like a pilot. One of the first things they they train pilots is to believe your instruments. Because I know when I first started, I'm looking at my compass. No, that's wrong. It's got to be wrong. No, your compass isn't wrong. You're turned around a bit. And you don't really get lost a lot of times. We never get lost, we just get turned around a bit, right? 100%.
SPEAKER_07:People ask, oh, do you ever get lost? And I say, all the time. Yep. But it's a matter of like, do I know exactly where I am on the hillside? No. Yeah. But I know if I go down to the bottom of the hillside, there's a creek there, and then I'll be able to figure out where I am. Or if I go to the top of the hill all the way up there, I'm gonna know where I am. So I I kind of use the map, and exactly as you say, so often I'll say, No, the compass is I am right, the compass is wrong. Well, guess who turns out to be right in the end of the day? Exactly. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, and so so we mentioned so what equipment would a newbie coming into the sport need, like the hiking boots and what kind of uh um maps that they need, a compass, and what other sort of things?
SPEAKER_07:Again, through the club uh showing up, they'll be able to rent you a compass. If you've seen the big ranger compasses with the mirrors and that sort of thing, that is overkill. And so the compass that I use is called a thumb compass, so it's really just the compass that will go in the hand that I'm holding the map. And as I said, we we use the compass as a tool, and you're really about using the map. Yeah. Um, we have some people who are, you know, they're almost a slave to their compass. And they say, okay, well, if I go one kilometer following the compass, I'm gonna hit this. Well, that's one way to do it, but if you look on the map and say, well, that way was gonna take me through a giant swamp, versus if I read the map, I know there's a trail over there and I'll go around the swamp and we'll be a lot easier. That's why we tell people, you know, really work on learning the map and using it.
SPEAKER_09:Right. Right. Now that ranger compass that you were talking about as well with the mirror, I know I I probably have a couple of those, but they they don't really get out. They're kind of backups that I have that people gave me or that, but and I never really use them. But I have when I was in Scouts, I was uh one of the only seven in actually in the world, but in Canada I was uh uh my scoutmaster actually presented us um John John Henry Bickle and myself with uh Silva Compass that we still use to this day, and we received that from them because uh we achieved our Chief and Queen Scout Awards uh in Canada. And we were the only there's only seven of us in the world, but uh uh it was one something that I still have to this day and use on a regular basis.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, that's excellent. As you say, um, you know, I still my compass is a bunch of years old. Though they don't uh they're not gonna wear out. You don't want to step on them or break them or anything like that. But uh in terms of a new a newbie coming out, um the clubs will have uh compass for you to borrow to get out there. And the courses, the the introductory courses, there's very little compass work. It's much more on kind of learning the map. And uh there's usually about four courses. So for someone's first day out, the first course is could be hopefully pretty easy for them, and then they can try out a little more challenging one after that.
SPEAKER_09:Now, Nevin, as well, some of I gotta be honest, though they they used to have all kinds of different compasses, and there was those pin-on ones that you'd put on that pin on, and they actually didn't work where the darn I thought they were terrible because if you didn't hold it just right, it's stuck and then and then the because it's in a round ball and it kind of pins on your jacket. So I I always have mine uh actually right along my belt so it's it's tied into my belt loop so I'm going through the bush I don't lose it. And those are just some of the things that I recall. But what other sort of stuff does somebody need? So you mentioned the compass, but what about clothing and and other things? Well, how about tick repellent? You need that.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, that's becoming more and more of a challenge. There's there's something you know we really have to watch out for in terms of getting out of the woods. Uh I've been really lucky that I've I've barely ever had ticks, but it's something that we really encourage people to watch out for. So how you dress, again, uh footwear. Uh footwear is always important, um, but it should be the same shoes. Again, if you're a trail runner or if you're a hiker, whatever's gonna give you stability in the woods. And then you're gonna dress um how you see fit in the being outdoors. Some people show up with big backpacks with a lunch and all that, and say, look, you're only gonna be out there for about an hour, leave that in the car. Um, and you don't want to be carrying that around. So uh footwear is really important. And then if you're in one of the courses that's off trail, that's gonna depend on how thick the woods are in terms of how you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, it's it's interesting. Um, some of those ones who when I was I was doing some work at Fort Severn, not Port Severn, but Fort Severn where uh Manitoba, Ontario, and Hudson's Bay come together. It's a northernmost community. And I was actually with a uh Canadian ranger who did training for the the Rangers in uh the far north. It was interesting. He said, uh now I asked, he just asked basic questions about uh, well, where would you set up your uh your your camp here? And he says, the last group that I had, and I showed him and he said, Yeah, that's where it should be. And he said, the last group I had, they set up here. But it was at low tide, and they didn't realize. And when the tide came up, they all of a sudden had to scramble and move their camp because it was now underwater. But one of the things that he had was, of course, he had his compass and his maps information, but he also had a basic supply uh emergency kit which included tea and some uh communication devices and things like that. What other sort of safety devices do you recommend for people who are going into the bush and trying it on their own?
SPEAKER_07:Uh and I don't I want to come back to being uh under underwater and tell you about a really special map out east. But uh one of the safety features is just in events in Canada, uh you have to carry a whistle. And that is just one of these safety things that if you sprain an ankle or do something worse, uh then three blasts on the whistle is going to indicate that you are uh it's you're in an emergency out there. Um for that for those longer events, like those adventure challengers or venture racers and multi-day one, they have really specific gear lists that they have to carry, exactly that kind of emergency uh setup. For the raid the hammer, we have a uh there's a minimum amount of water that you have to carry, because those are say uh a long uh half half marathon distances. Um so it'll be something like an emergency blanket, X amount of water, uh, and maybe a safety kit, but those are for really specific events. Um for most of the small ones, it's the whistle is the most important ones, and that's just for really emergencies out there. Um it's incredible how few people get injured doing this sport. Uh the number one, probably the two uh major injuries that people get are blisters from their shoes not fitting right, uh, and then the odds sprained ankle. And that's about it that we that we trish traditionally see.
SPEAKER_09:Right. And well, and the other thing was um some of the other things we always had uh the first thing we always had in our pack when we were packing was uh rain gear to make sure it was uh on top and it was the first thing you were able to access. So it but in orienteering, basically there's no rock climbing and things like that?
SPEAKER_07:Not really rock. You have to get from A to B. And so say there's a really dangerous cliff or a really steep cliff on it, the event organizer is gonna be smart enough not to send people over that. They they're gonna say around. And if you find yourself out in the woods climbing down a steep cliff, you are probably not supposed to be do that. And uh it's kind of your fault for thinking that's gonna be the best route. Um no, and uh in terms of rain, this is a all season sport. So rain is notoriously makes navigation uh extra tricky. Both my parents, who I grew up doing this for my parents, both of them needed reading glasses. You can imagine what rain does to that. Um so as we plan our courses, um, one of the things, you know, it's an outdoor sport in the nature. Uh if it's raining, we'll often find that the times will be a lot slower because it's just trickier to navigate when things are like that.
SPEAKER_09:Right. Right. Now you mentioned about the whistle and three blasts. We were always taught that um it was uh a blast, one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, a blast, one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, another blast. Is what uh we we were always taught uh in ka in scouting is just to make sure there was consistency. So people heard that. And I don't know if it's the same or the that's sort of saying that they have now or not.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, it's it's it's similar. And um, you know, it's it's people have pretty good spirits. And actually in Europe a few years ago, uh at the World Championships, and during the relay race, which a lot of the countries take super this is the the most competitive race, there was a pack of three of the top countries who were running, and one of the guys got a uh I think it was a really nasty cut um through some s some sharp branches. Uh, and two of the other leading competitors saw him, and they both stopped and and helped him. And the three of them got out of the woods, uh kind of gave up the race, but that was the spirit of um of the competitors out there in terms of everyone comes back, and you know, there's more more important things uh than the actual race. Um I it's been I don't think I have blown my whistle because of uh either being super super lost or hurt since I was about 10 years old. Um usually if you get say completely turned around and completely lost and you'll find another competitor and you look and you need help, someone's gonna help you out out there. Uh and as I said, the whistle is only for if you're really, really injured.
SPEAKER_09:Right. Now and the other thing I I think is is people need to just remain the biggest they if they keep calm.
SPEAKER_07:When people start to panic, absolutely, absolutely is where they get into trouble.
SPEAKER_09:And I always and I and I know I've looked for some done some search and rescue for some people, and I said, let's go this way, and they said, Why are we going that way? And I said, Well, when people start to panic, they take the path of least resistance. And if you look through here, they can go straight through here, and lo and lo and behold, every single time you pick up tracks and and people because they they start to panic and they start doing things, and if they start running or going the wrong ways, they take the path of I've always found they've taken the path of least resistance. And we have always picked up tracks and be able to find people that way. So keeping calm is very important as to so when you start to panic is when people have problems.
SPEAKER_07:You absolutely nailed it. And my coach growing up would talk about take some seconds to save some minutes. Yep. And you know, orienteering again, you can't really do it if you're stressed and mentally stressed, and you need to stay calm. So if you say made a mistake early in the race, you'll see people pushing extra hard and trying to take chances. And if you're worried about that or thinking about that, you're gonna make more mistakes out there. And as you say, staying calm out there, say, okay, I don't know exactly where I am, but let's all uh, you know, if you're out there camping or hiking and you're saying, okay, I think we're I think we're on a different trail, or this doesn't make sense, let's just calm down, let's make sure we can relocate exactly where we are. Maybe we're gonna go out to a lake and say, okay, we're exactly at this point because I can see this little island, and you take you stay calm, um, and you take some time to relocate and figure out where you are, that's super, super important.
SPEAKER_09:Right. Now, Nevin, you mentioned about uh you had a story about the I think it was East Coast and the tide.
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. And since I'm uh calling in here from Atlantic Canada, there's actually, if you've heard of um the Bay of Fundy and the um, I think it's it's the flower pot uh islands out there with the really high tides, there's actually an orienteering map that's under the the ocean floor there. Oh, really? And so they've had some competitions when that's at low tide and have navigated have put you know the big boulders on the map, and this is what the train looks like when the tide is out. And you know, those events are exactly from this time until that time. Uh and you better be off the map because the tide's coming in after that. So it's it's one of the more interesting maps in the country here.
SPEAKER_09:Right. Yeah, okay. Nevin, how do people find out more information or how do they get in touch with you and find out more details about your organization or or yourself?
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. Please uh take a look at uh orienteeringontario.ca. You're welcome to send us a quick email if you'd like to find out. We list uh the clubs there and we're happy to put you in touch, or you can reach out to the clubs uh that may be near you. Or if you and uh say some of your friends are looking to get uh if you're in an area that there's not an event, then we would love to uh chat with you to see if we can have some resources to help uh get things going there as well.
SPEAKER_09:Well, thank you very much, Nevin French, the president of the Orienteering Ontario, for taking the time to inform us about in Orienteering and all the uh the great opportunities to be out there and enjoy just another way to enjoy things out there under the canopy. Thanks very much, Nevin.
SPEAKER_07:Thank you so much for going on. I'd love to see you in the woods and uh your listeners out there as well. Thank you.
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SPEAKER_02:Meanwhile, we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass. And we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing job.
SPEAKER_11:My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that's might be more efficient than it was punchy. You so confidently you said, Hey Pat, have you ever eaten a drink?
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