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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 125: Inside The World Of Tea
A cup of tea can tell you where it grew, how it was harvested, and even what the weather felt like—and John has spent 43 years learning that language. From Tetley’s legendary training to global trading desks and UN projects, he walks us through the real mechanics of quality: why the top two leaves and a bud matter, how insects trigger flavor by provoking plant defenses, and how high-altitude stress in places like Sri Lanka and Darjeeling creates brighter, more layered cups.
We dig into the details that change your daily brew. John explains why soil acidity, drainage, and microflora drive healthy roots, how intercropping legumes boosts nitrogen without burn, and why old bushes clinging to rock can taste astonishingly pure. We challenge the myth that teabags are “bad tea,” unpacking CTC vs orthodox processing, oxidation, and particle size. Then we tackle the big headline: microplastics in teabags. What materials are actually used today? How do PLA and modern paper mills change the equation? The answer is more nuanced—and much less scary—than the viral posts suggest.
Beyond the science, we talk value and ethics. John shares his work in Pakistan, where massive tea imports strain foreign currency. By planting tea on marginal slopes and keeping packaging and distribution closer to farms, communities can keep more margin at origin. We finish with practical takeaways: a sleep-friendly blend ratio (valerian, chamomile, spearmint) that tastes good, not just “good for you,” and circulatory-support pairings like rooibos with hibiscus that also play nicely with chaga. If you care about flavor, truth over hype, and supporting growers while you sip, you’ll find plenty to bring to your next kettle boil.
Enjoyed this conversation? Follow the show, share it with a tea-loving friend, and leave a quick review to help more listeners discover us.
Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Vallosa. And I'm people. Now you might know us as the host of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. Yeah, it's right every Thursday, and it's gonna be right here in your ears to bring you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm. Now what are we gonna talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing.
SPEAKER_08:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be if they got them and they were easy to catch.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors.
SPEAKER_09:From athletes, all the other guys would go golfing. Me and guys turkey, and all the Russians would go fishing.
SPEAKER_08:And now that we're looking forest annual anything, it's the perfect transmission environment to find if any game isn't cooked properly. You will taste it.
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SPEAKER_00:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Olette, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit is a strange mushroom, and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Well, same as always, we're thanking our listeners. And any questions, any suggestions, just let us know. We'll do what we can. Takes a bit of time sometimes, but we get it done. I know uh working um with new customers, uh, uh people dealing with the Chaga products, uh, Bonjour Bakery in uh Edmonton. We appreciate them. And possibly even uh we'll talk with I see about maybe getting them on the show to talk about various materials used here in Canada and across uh the world and Europe and things like that. And as usual, we give a little bit of update of uh Ensign Gunner, my chocolate lab. You know, he was hurt, uh he he had the operation and then he went out for a run. He was just like a crazy mad dog running with dogs half his age, and then he was limping for the next few days. So got him in to get him checked out, as I mentioned before. And Hannah and Dr. Matt took care of him, took the stitches out, and he seems to be just dandy now. And after this podcast, I'll be putting on the garb and heading into the bush to cut some trees, same as uh I do fairly often. I get out um, we'll get some firewood going and things like that. And we cut some standing dead wood, which uh I find the the tops and the the burn spectacular. But uh and and Gunner, he he actually does a great job with me. When we go out, what he will do, we'll I'll get him to sit and uh first of all I check if I'm taking a tree down. I'll uh check the top of the height of the tree and any branches that may incur in a fall, in the tree falling, that is, to be sure that he's out of distance. So I'll get him to sit and he just sits down and watches, and once the tree comes down, he looks at me. And a lot of times he'll instead of sitting, he'll just lie there and wait, and then I'll tell him it's okay after I've checked the canopy to make sure there's no deadfalls up top that may come down and surprise us, which I've had before. Actually, I was doing a deadfall in Whitby, and um one of the trees I had fell, hit a branch on another tree, and I was standing back looking at it, and the branch came down, and this was in the summertime, and actually another inch and I wouldn't be doing podcasts, let's say, the tree came down and ripped my shirt right in half, like right off the front of me. And uh the branch, it was just a branch that came straight down, and wow, was ever a close call. But we've had a few, but it's good to have Gunner out there. It's he's always a friend, and I end up playing ball or throwing a stick for him. So he gets his exercise out in the bush as well. And lately we've been seeing a lot of coyote tracks out where we've been, so he's been putting the nose to the ground, following them a bit, but that's part of what he does. But we're back, and I gotta tell you, we had a podcast on, it came out a couple months ago, that we didn't quite get the whole podcast on, and we lost quite a bit of it. So I brought the guest back to finish up what we talked about, because it was very interesting, and I had some in some inquiries about it. Uh Pete asked me uh more details about it, so we're finding out. And welcome back, John.
SPEAKER_07:Well, thank you very much, Jerry.
SPEAKER_00:Glad to be back. Now that's it's good to have you. It's very interesting. Now, have we got a good connection? No problems this time, because apparently last time you said it kind of went funny on you about halfway through and we lost it.
SPEAKER_07:I I felt as if I was in outer space, actually.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Good now. Yeah, very good. Yeah, I was a little bit iffy right there at the start, but uh sounds good now, and we want to make sure that we don't have any problems because it's an interesting topic that I find interesting, and I'm sure our listeners do. So we're talking about tea, and John's a tea expert. How long have you worked in the tea industry, John? Well, uh let's see, 43 years. 43 years in the tea industry. And where did you get your start in the tea industry and how did you get to be here in just uh east of Toronto?
SPEAKER_07:No, um well, I joined the Tetley Tea Company uh after leaving the Royal Navy and just uh purely because they they have a great training program that sends you to basically all the major origins of the world to see how tea is produced from basically bush to cup. And um, so I joined them back in London all those years ago, and then I went through various iterations, moving away from a sort of CPG company. I uh packaged good uh uh selling to trading. So I worked for a large trading company that was set up between a Canadian tea trader and a UK coffee trader, and we started a London office, and then after a messy commercial divorce, um the tea was relocated to Canada with a view to opening up another London office, but the Canadian and North American trade uh as a whole was just taking off, and it was just too good of an opportunity to miss. So we stayed 33 years ago. John, what does CPG mean? Sorry, uh consumer packaged goods. So, you know, basically tea bags and loose tea packets.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And what did you do in the Royal Navy, John?
SPEAKER_07:Well, I joined to uh actually to fly. I joined because I had an interest, a passion for flying, but um uh after a few final handling tests, I didn't quite make that great. So I went back and I navigated for a while. Um, but frankly speaking, it it it sort of wore thin on me after a while. I wanted to be up in the sky rather than on the pond, so to speak. And uh so I I I left uh and my antics on the water are now just sailing.
SPEAKER_00:Very good. And when you were in the Navy, um what ports uh did you visit? Now you were on a ship, were you? What type of ship were you on?
SPEAKER_07:I was on a variety of ships. So I was um uh at one point in the North Sea doing fishery protection, which was a big thing in the early 80s, going up into the northerly latitudes, which was not very comfortable off the Norwegian coast, sort of latitude 60, 62, that sort of thing. But then later on um on frigates and destroyers uh down in uh the Mediterranean, Red Sea, Indian Ocean, um, and the South Atlantic. So uh, you know, in all during the age of the Cold War, which everyone it sounds ominous, but frankly speaking, is a lot safer than today.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh my father was in the Navy as well. He was on the destroyer, the HMCS Ottawa. He was uh He was a communicator, so he worked uh and when he would listen to Morris Code, he'd be able to still identify it uh to his dying day, bless his soul, and it was kind of interesting. And and when I represented Canada in an international event in in northern Scotland, we went up to WIC, and uh I went out on a fishing trawler on the North Sea, and I had spent time crewing on COMRA, which is the City of Oshawa Marine and Rescue uh ship. Well, it's a boat, it's a it's about a 35-footer that went out in Lake Ontario, and there was lots of times when, not lots of times, but there were many times when I was out when you went down in a trough, all you could see was water surrounding the boat. And so I thought I'd be fine out on the North Sea, but I gotta tell you, we were out on a calm day, and there were 20-foot swells that didn't do well with me that day at all. I stayed down below, and I did not I was not a an advantage or assistant to helping out bringing in the the uh the harvest that day because it was rough.
SPEAKER_07:Well, you you you can imagine the uh fishery protection vessels I was on, the Navy was short of hulls. So they bought actually a bunch of trawler hulls. And the trawlers are built around the way that they uh maintain their buoyancy and and their vertical uh uh position is because they obviously they have a big frozen hold where the fish go, and they have a very small wheelhouse. So the center of gravity is low. But the Navy, in their infinite wisdom, took out this nice ballast, uh, put in some very light uh aluminum decking, and then put a three-tiered uh superstructure on top, plus an Earlickan gun. Uh so this thing was basically a metronome, even in a you know, very calm sea. And uh a couple of days I remember being in 60-foot seas, um, which was uh well, all you could do was head into sea. You couldn't turn across it at all. Oh yes, a good waiting game. Uh well, uh so as not to catch the eyes. But anyway, there we go.
SPEAKER_00:I I I ran a charter boat on Lake Ontario, a 26-foot crisscraft for a number of years, and I was taking a buddy out Rolly, and all the other charter boat guys were saying, Don't go out today, don't go out today. And he looked out and it didn't look that bad. And got to the end of the harbor past the brake wall, and we got out there, and it was one of those ones where there were calm rollers, but when you went down, you couldn't see anything but water uh circling around the the charter, the the the uh the boat. And it was like uh-oh, how the heck do we get out of this? So it was interesting. What we had to do was we had to back up on a wave while it was rolling, and then turn the boat to be able to get back in. And we went out very just for a couple of minutes and turn around, come right back. But those are the interesting kind of things that we do, and and silly things that sometimes when we think we know better than the other ones, when they're saying, don't go out there, don't go out there.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I I always say that you know, I prefer to be on a sailing vessel than a motor vessel, because a sailing vessel will just pitch, it won't roll. And so, you know, if you're a tea drinker or a gin and tonic drinker, you the la you can maintain the equilibrium in a sailing vessel, but not in a motor vessel. Oh, yeah. So there you go. Sail overpower every day.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that was one of the interesting things. I had a lot of friends that served in the Navy, Doug as well as my father and uh some others, and Eddie Frigette, et cetera, et cetera. And it was uh one of the things that they found interesting is that when you whenever you came up to to uh to shore and and you you had some off-duty time and you went in, that you you kind of you did this step brace to grab the bar rail, because even though you're on land, your body was still pitching and young.
SPEAKER_07:Oh yes, yeah. It would take a couple of days if you were out, uh particularly in the fishery protection days. If we were out for three weeks at sea, it would take you two to three days to uh get your land legs back. Yes. Quite the thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's kind of interesting the way you still feel that you're you're you're go rolling back and forth sort of thing, even though you're on fixed land.
SPEAKER_07:But yeah, you your inner air uh yeah can trick you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's for sure. Absolutely. But we're here to talk about tea, John, because that's where you have the expertise for 43 years. There you go. And tell us, John, does harvesting the tea hurt the plant? So when you take the leaves, most of these are all uh they're leaf teas, although cinnamon is is a bark, but a leaf tea. And are you harming the tree when you take the leaves off?
SPEAKER_07:Well, I mean in my Lexicon, not in the public Lexicon. Tea is only one plant, the camellia sinensis, is a camellia plant. And so those are true teas, i.e. black teas, green teas, white teas, oolongs, puers, they all come from the same bush. And these it is a tree actually, but it's cultivated to be about three feet tall. And it and it, if you will, it's cultivated to have an architecture a bit like a wine glass. So it'll from a single stem, it branches out and creates what we call the plucking table, which is uh a sort of three foot by three-foot area of uh twigs that create new flush, as we call it, new leaf growth on about a seven to ten day cycle in a in a lot of places, maybe longer in higher altitudes. But um so you're only plucking really the top two leaves in a bud for spectacular tea. That's what you should be doing. Um, so you're leaving what we call the lungs of the plant in place, all the mature leaves. You don't actually want to pluck. You want to pluck the new leaf. And the older, more mature leaves are the photosynthetic engine for the plant. So, no, every seven to ten days you can pluck that uh bush and it will keep generating. And tea bushes, the camellia sinensis, uh some bushes are still in harvesting a hundred years later. So, no, you you you can do what you do. With with the non with other teas that come from the so-called teas, which are really tissanes, the herbal teas, uh, and as you rightly say, it could be barks, it could be flowers in the case of, or calyxes in the in the uh case of hibiscus. Um, it could be pine needles if you're looking at cedar uh or white pine tea. Um in those cases, I'd say you have to be careful. You know, I mean, definitely taking off bark off a tree. Uh, you know, if you create a circle, if you take off a circle of bark, you'll kill that tree uh without uh uh careful care. And even with uh white pines, a lot of people think, oh yeah, I can just strip whatever I want. No, you cannot. That again is this photosynthetic engine, and it requires it for regrowth. So we have to be careful and uh do our homework before we harvest anything. As you know, Jerry, with your chagger uh harvesting.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So how long do these these tea trees leave? You mentioned a hundred years, and it's just I never thought to ask previously, how long does a tea tree live?
SPEAKER_07:Well, a tea tree will live for um there are some tea trees that are over a thousand years old. Um in in the in Yunnan, in southwest China, uh you're and in Cambodia, you'll find some very ancient tea trees. Uh but the majority, so when the when they're cultivated, the yield starts to drop off after about 40 years. So in the modern uh what we call the organized sector, plantation sector, you'll find uh replanting is being done on a sort of 40 to 50 year cycle. But in certain places, you know, in every plant, the best quality comes when the plant is actually under stress or straight after a dormancy period when all the sugars have been concentrating in the roots, and when the first flush comes, that's when you get the best quality. So in places like Daijeeling in Northeast India, uh, which is renowned for producing very good quality tea, a lot of the bushes there are much older than 40 years because they're not looking at optimal uh harvest size, they're looking at optimal quality. And that comes from a bush that, or a tree that um that is probably past its prime in terms of in in in terms of livelihood, but um but not in but because of its own internal stress, it produces a lot of the uh the chemicals that uh are required. And I when I say chemicals, a lot of people go, oh no, it comes out of a lab. No, it's just compounds. Um a lot of the flavanols that uh create great teas. So yes, age can be an advantage. And thank God for that, eh, Jerry?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's for sure. So i is it when these trees are growing like that, I know I've I have had Master Gardener Bev on a number of times, and one of the things that she was stressed was that it takes a few years. We talked about garlic at that time, if any, if you can imagine that the garlic adapts itself to the soil and becomes better as the years go on. So, and the the various fertilizers that you provide will produce a better quality garlic. Is it the same with tea trees? Is there something with the soil condition that makes a difference or fertilization for them?
SPEAKER_07:Yes, without a doubt. I mean, uh tea uh grows best in an acidic soil. Uh, you know, somewhere in the sort of four to five and a half range is best for the thing. It wants to be well drained. So sandy soils grown on an incline. So you know, good leaching is good for tea. That's the best thing. So, you know, you can and and without doubt, you know, the application of nitrogen just prior to harvesting um can in will increase quality. But you but you really have to be careful. You know, you you you know, a lot of people think that fertilizer is nothing but good, but you know, it creates it creates burn, root burn, uh, quite easily. And so it should be used sparingly. And frankly speaking, there's there are lots of remedies to being able to avoid using uh uh too much MPK these days. I mean, you know, you can intercrop uh two different crops. So for instance, with tea, you can intercrop with legumes. So, you know, you you've you've got an annual uh cash crop for farmers in certain regions, which is also uh fixing nitrogen for the tea uh for its particular harvest. So uh yeah, lots of tricks coming out of the book.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, it sounds like it could be a potential some interest. I wonder if there's some mycological uh aspects in there where uh some of the fungi that connects the roots in North American uh ecosystems might be the same in in tree growing systems, but I'm not sure even if you if you're familiar with what I'm referring to.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, yeah, no, I I am, and it's and yes, I would I would say that's that's true. I mean the microflora for tea is uh isn't is uh is a well-studied and uh and uh uh uh an intricate part of growing tea and maintaining its health. So, you know, they tea farmers will use a lot of uh ground cover and uh organic matter to uh to to aid that particular environment. Um you know, it's uh it's it that that is that is critical for healthy um root hair growth and uh absorbent of nutrients. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You mentioned the girdling or taking the bark off and going around the tree, and it's essentially that's what happens in um North America with the emerald ash boar beetle. So the boar goes kind of the the beetle kind of drills a little hole into the tree or eats a little hole and then lays its egg in an ash tree. And then the larva eat itself around in a circle, and essentially it's called girdling. And what happens is then the sap can't go up the tree to feed the tree, so the tree eventually dies off. And it's been a big, very big problem with ash trees and other uh invasive species that are coming into North America, killing off large uh tracts of trees, and very concerning. It one of the other things you mentioned, though, John, was about it produces better leaves with stress on the tree.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, so if you uh if you imagine um when any uh plant produces a new leaf uh or um a new bud, that bud is the softest uh uh the softest piece on the plant. And that therefore is the easiest for insects to attack. So what happens is that you know you won't see insect attacks starting on the lower, more mature leaves because they're just too hard for their little mandibles. So they go for this new growth. So the plant has its natural defense, is it produces these this group of compounds, which is its natural insecticide or pesticide, if you will. And they're a bitter group of compounds that in that include caffeine and include flavanols and L-theanine in the case of tea. And these are very bitter uh chemicals, but they are also, as the collective noun flavanols suggest, is what creates flavor. So um, and uh in proof in proof of this, what was a well-founded theory is actually a chap in South Africa, Zenno Apostolides, who I knew, um, he uh would mimic the action of insects by stroking the bushes just before, just at dusk with microfilaments, and then measure the polyphenol and flavanol content the morning after, and you could get it 10% higher every time you did it. Oh. And so by using this type of mechanism, you can increase the quality of tea just prior to plucking. An astounding thing that I saw in Vietnam years ago was an oolong producer from Taiwan who who uh moved to and was still producing fantastic uh sort of emerald oolongs. He was spraying eggs onto his tea bushes. And I was going, you know, why would he do that? Well, it was quite simple. He said, Well, it's it's been passed down over generations, and he wasn't quite sure why he was doing it. He said, But always I spray it on, and the next day I pluck the tea, and it's much better. And it's the same theory. Spray the spray the egg on, insects come down, they feed on the eggs, but they can't touch the leaves because they're protected by the egg. But the but the plant can feel the landing of the aphids or whatever what whatever insect is coming and increases its flavanol production. So it's a bit like uh, you know, they're getting tea and breakfast at the same time the next morning.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's very interesting. And one of the things that that I learned when I was uh the Minister for Ontario, the natural resources, was that trees come under stress when the leaves and branches start to touch other branches. So and you could look and identify years of growth by the growth rings when there was stress on the tree because it was a much smaller growth ring in the tree than large growth rings, which means the space between each growth ring. So if you cut up a tree stump and you'll see these growth rings, you'll see some that are very, very tight and close together, and some that are very far apart. The far apart ones are there's no stress on the tree. The ones that are tight and very close together are ones that were under stress. So sometimes the old growth forests, a lot of times those those trees had a lot more stress and they would have tighter rings, which made a stronger wood for a lot of different um applications that were people never really thought about. But is it the same with tea? Do they when you're talking about these three-foot kind of wine glass sort of thing, are the are they touching each other or are they independent of each other for harvest reasons?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, no, they they are. They should only touch each other. So the planting, when they plant out tea, I mean there's the there's various planting patterns, but uh you're looking at about uh 4,000 plants per hectare. So and they're usually in a sort of uh four by four by two foot, so that there'll be two feet between each, uh between each plant in a row, and then four feet between each row. And the and if you imagine that wine glass uh uh thing means that uh the bushes from one row to the other at the top will be touching. But the pluck, but the pluckers, the harvesters, can still push between those top branches. They'll wear a sort of canvas, uh uh a canvas apron so they don't get harmed by the twigs or whatever, but they'll be able to walk through between the two uh uh things as if they're sort of parting the waves, uh doing a Moses impression in a sea of green and uh and plucking the leaves as they go.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, John, can these plants grow? Like I have a a bay plant that I have at the house, which we in the summertime we put outside. And in the wintertime, as soon as it starts to get cold, we bring it in. Are tea plants something that you can take in and out in Ontario, or is it just not conducive for growth for them?
SPEAKER_07:Uh so if you leave it potted, you can have a tea bush uh in a pot, and you but you have to bring it in. It it it will not be happy with you if you uh leave it outside during uh hard frost conditions. And um and the other thing is that the structure, if you the camellia plant is if it's cultivated for harvesting, then as I say, all these twigs are pointing northward, if you will, upwards, if you will. And if you get a heavy snowfall, it will break that that architecture. But it is a commonal garden, I mean it is a common camellia, so it is it can take snowfall if you don't sort of cultivate it to harvest tea from it. But um it will not say it will it will die back pretty quickly if you leave it out, you know, past uh uh past the sort of end of November. Well this year, probably past the mid of middle of November start.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was it's been it's been a little surprising, I know, that that the um the wood insert that I the fireplace insert that I put inside in the fireplace, it uh they everybody said that, oh, you'll burn far less amounts of wood. Yes, that's true. But the difference is that I've got way more fires going, and I'm going through more wood than I have in the past. So I cut back the amount of uh wood I have for the insert because of the everybody instructing me that look, you're not gonna burn near as much, which is true, but I burn more often. So but it works good. So you can take it in and out. And what kind of what size would you be able to bring in and out then? Is it something obviously you're not gonna bring something that's got that three-foot uh top to it. And I guess from the sounds of it, how big a round in a wine glass sort of thing would that be?
SPEAKER_07:So I mean if you if if you imagine that usually the root uh uh this the surface area of the root basically mimics the the wine glass area, the top. So it's an hourglass, if you if you will. So whatever you if you have a bush that's three feet across at the top, it's going to be three feet across at the bottom. So, you know, but obviously you can you can you can cultivate it. It it will, it just needs a relatively good depth. So I would say that you need, you know, I would say 30 centimeters is a minimum uh depth for growing tea properly. And um, you know, it will it it'll find its way. If you go to places like uh Nepal or Utakand or any of these uh very hilly areas where tea is grown, some of these old tea bushes, they're remarkable. They actually are not growing in soil at all, but they're growing, they have actually clasped onto a boulder. And all of because there's a lot of um, particularly these days with climate change, we've seen a lot of uh rainwater, you know, much heavier rainforest, which has washed away soil. These things are not in soil anymore, but they're getting all their nutrients from the minerals in the rock. Really? Yeah, and when you taste these teas, they're stunning. They have they have a sort of purity. It's a bit it's very much like wine, you know. You you if you taste certain wines like Sancerre, et cetera, which is grown in this very chalky compound, and you'll you you you get that type of very vibrant, citrusy notes from these particular bushes.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Powell Hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. So uh John, you mentioned about the the buds or the uh the leaves that are plucked, and that unopened leaves are a lot of the ones that are preferred for the what do they call them, um, gold tips or silver tips, things along that line. Would it be the same for things like if you want to do a raspberry tea and a raspberry leaf, so an unopened raspberry leaf would would be far the large advantage of harvesting that for flavor reasons or for component reasons?
SPEAKER_07:Well, they're they're uh they're they're grown differently. I mean, you know, blood creation, which is uh so if you cultivated the right look, new growth of any plant has a better quality quotient than old. Because I mean, all that happens is that these flavonours, et cetera, that are first this protective mechanism for the plant itself, will, as age goes on, will compound to produce chlorophyll and then lignin and then wood. You know, so so the older the part of the bush you harvest or the tree or the crop you harvest, the less of those active compounds you will get. That's that's the thing. So, yes, raspberry leaf, I would say, I think you'd have a hard job thinking about how raspberry grows. Selectively harvesting. And and frankly speaking, I mean, you know, it the the it it the you know, raspberry leaves do not um uh they don't become uh sort of fleshy and hard like a like a camellia leaf.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:So, you know, it's so whatever the part of the bush you're taking, or the the plant you're taking there, you'll still be able to extract what's inside it. If you take a if you take a very hard uh an old tea leaf, it it'll be exceptionally difficult to produce anything resembling tea from it. I mean people people do, but it's but it's not tasty. It won't do you much good, and um, yeah, it'll be a bit thin and lifeless.
SPEAKER_02:Back in 2016, Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.
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SPEAKER_00:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, we've got Rob from Hamilton here who's had some success with the Chaga cream. Rob, can you tell us about it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I've uh used it on blemishes, I uh just basically all around healing. Uh anything, anything kind of blemish, it speeds it up really quick. Uh the healing fuckes really well. It leaves no market. Does it stay or okay? Thanks, Rob. Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00:We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier. By giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code CANAPY. C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode. John, one of the places uh I was in Sri Lanka, and uh the nicest tea that I'd had was a gold-tip tea from Sri Lanka. It was always interesting in Sri Lanka. It was a couple of things there that were I found very interesting. And we took these tuktuks, which were basically uh a three-v-wheeled vehicle with a driver sits in the front and then takes two people in the back, and they're gas-powered. And and I always asked a lot of the drivers, what's the coldest weather you've ever been in? And I recall one saying, Oh, he was in uh in the northern part of uh Sri Lanka, and it was so cold there, he said, it was almost 10 degrees Celsius. And then they then they came back and asked you, what's the coldest you've been in? I said, Well, I've been in minus 44. And it it just the look on their face and the shock that they they see, it was the same when it was in Kenya, when you tell people they they can't believe anything that people could even survive in that. But so so those places like Sri Lanka and the gold tip teas, obviously the the weather conditions uh and very humid there are very influencing in tea growth. In some of the Ceylon teas, as you mentioned earlier, are some of the better ones around?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, Sri Lanka is uh uh uh is my favorite tea origin, and mainly because it has this spine of mountains that basically goes from north-northwest to south-southeast. And that uh spine at the top of it, which is this place called Neuralia, um, they that is known by the locals as Little Scotland. Because of the altitude uh uh and because of the the rivers that come off it, you get these mists in the morning and actually very cool temperatures at night, which is ideal for making tea. You want some humidity, but you do not want it hot and humid. And so these teas that are grown right at the top are bright, vibrant, and and on one side of the mountains during the during the uh one monsoon, the one side of the island because of the mountains is protected, and then on the other, the other side is protected. So on the side that's protected, you get this fabulous quality. So the two that people really know about are something um teas called Dimbula teas, which are on the western side, and they are juicy, sort of red and very nicely balanced teas with this lovely flavor. And then on the uh Other side on the e the eastern side is Neuralia and Budapusalawa. They're the two main ones next to each other. And they are citrusy, bright, golden cups, lighter, and favored by the Japanese and the Germans, really. So they've got two very different types at the top. And then as you come down off the slopes, you get into humid, stuffy jungle from candy in the mid range all the way down to the what they call the low growns, which are grown sort of in the plains, but very humid. And those teas are always produced for leaf for leaf appearance and for color. Because, frankly speaking, they're growing too quick because of the humidity and heat to deliver any real quality quotient, and because they're not under stress, frankly. And so they are the black leaf, twisted teas that get sold into the Middle East and other markets that want good-looking tea. But you know, good-looking tea, sometimes I say it's lipstick on the pig. You know, you can make a tea, a tea look good, but it doesn't actually deliver on the cup. Whereas a lot of those at the top, they may not look as pretty, but by gosh, do they taste great?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the gold tips were quite surprisingly very enjoyable. It was some of the nicest teas that I can recall getting uh from there. And it was uh interesting. In Colombo, which is the capital, uh they have this uh it's called the Dutch Hospital that they've converted into a restaurant sort of thing. And while we were there, it uh I did a walk-around because it's kind of like a a number of different uh restaurants with a center feeding area where you would go and take your and you could order each from each of these restaurants what you'd like. And one of the things that I found very interesting there was these something called giant shrimp, which would essentially equate to the size of a lobster, like a two-pound, three-pound lobster here. And I came back to the table and I said, You should see the size of these shrimp. And everybody said, No, Jerry, they're lobster. They just don't have claws here. I said, No, it's a shrimp. And I argued back and forth. So finally one of them said, All right, I'm gonna go take a look at this lobster that you're calling a shrimp. And he came back and he said, You know, something they are shrimp. And so it was amazing. But apparently, this is the only area where blue whales feed because of these shrimp the size of a lobster, which is unbelievable. Actually, we throw it, so we tried them, they were pretty good. It's it's interesting in the different cultures you see and how tea influences so many different things around the world and the places you've been, to just to see the to hear about the the the growth methods and the the you know extracting materials from rocks uh for tea growth and all the different places, and obviously, you know, been to Candy as well in the north end of Sri Lanka, but it was very interesting, and I found it very very well it was it was a learning experience because you don't expect those sort of things when you get there. And you talked about the the humidity there. Well, in the time I was there, I watched a basically look like a dirt field go from that to green grass in about 10 days, and I just could not believe how fast it was growing.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, no, it it it really does. You you you you mentioned Kenya though, and I mean the one difference between Sri Lanka, you know, if you look at Sri Lanka and Kenya, they're both, frankly speaking, they're in the tropics. They have uh in the high elevations, uh, they have the same sort of altitude. So they have the same ability to grow good quality tea, but in Kenya, uh they're producing what they call CTC tea, cut tear and curl. So I mean, Kenya was planted out a lot later than uh Sri Lanka, and it was planted out, frankly speaking, with along with the advent of the teabag. So they created what they call cut terra and curl, which is a way of macerating all the leaf so that it produces tea that will fit into a teabag. Now, a lot of people say, oh, you know, leaf tea is much better quality than tea than teabag tea. And that's just tosh. Um, you know, they come from the same plant, they they're plucked under the same conditions, and actually the only difference between them is that obviously, you know, the tea processes, you pluck it, you wither it, i.e., you make the leaf go flaccid, then you roll it to rupture the internal cell mechanism so that it can be oxidized, which is the process by which the flavonoids get complexed into large molecules that you can see, which give you the red color, which people call tannins. And depending on whether you want green oulong, which is semi-oxidized or black tea, depends on how long you oxidize that before you fire it. And the firing process will denature the enzyme that is naturally occurring in the tea that allows oxidation to happen. Now, so if you crush a tea into very small particles, then obviously it will oxidize faster and further than a leaf where you just roll it gently because obviously you're breaking up more cell structure. So teabag teas tend to give more color and strength. Uh, and you cannot have your cake and eat it with the tea world. You start off with these flavanols, and as you as you oxidize them, obviously you're losing those to produce tannins or thea rubigen, so the color and things. So you can so the art of the tea maker is to is to stop that oxidation process at the right balance of flavor development and color and body development. And so, you know, I'm not saying that every teabag tea is good because it's not, because unfortunately, a lot of the CPG industry, which I was part of, um has been, you know, these companies have been taken over and people just basically asset stripped those brands. I mean, Linpton's, for instance, and Telling used to be fantastic teas. They used to you they used to, you know, we were very particular about the teas back um all those years ago, and now not so much. And it's just idiotic because, frankly speaking, I think the people have been uh uh they're not being given the opportunity to see just how good tea can be, however, it's manufactured.
SPEAKER_00:So and you mentioned manufacturing of the teas and the tea bags. Tell us a bit about the different teabags that are out there, John, because there's been a study that came out that talked about plastics in tea bags and watch out. And I get a lot of people that when I'm out doing an event that's will ask a question about the in tea bags, and they asked about the plastics in them. And so maybe you can just elaborate on that a bit for us.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, sure. I mean, uh I I will say that a a good friend of mine and a very distinguished uh uh doctor has uh has written a positional paper on microplastics from tea bags, and it is not this scaremongering nonsense that's put out there. However, without a doubt, when when teabags, you know, if you look at a technique tea bag or any teabag, uh the way that they seal the paper together is obviously by having some sort of plastic or melting fiber in that in that paper, so that when heat is applied to it, it will stick to the other piece of paper, uh encompassing, you know, holding the tea between them. Now that used to be uh you know oil-based plastic fibers, and it still is in many cases. But obviously, with the advent of um PLA polylactic acid, which, frankly speaking, is a plastic, but but it's produced from natural resins, um, I've taken from pine wood or uh abacus, etc., um, you can you can do away with the uh olifins within with with within uh within paper. So for instance, all our paper is uh is uh biodegradable. You can take our paper, it's only natural fiber, and you're gonna stick it in your compost at home, and it'll be gone. I do it often. In fact, every tea bag I I drink goes into my garden. Um so that's that's that's that's really the story of that, uh, to be honest. The other point that I always make about this is, you know, it's rather like, you know, in the tea industry, we have a problem with uh a problem. We have a legislative problem with regards to maximum residue limits of agrochemical residues. And and yet the levels allowed on tea are so infinitesimally small compared to, say, apples or carrots. Uh and and the transference of these from the dry leaf on which it is tested to the liquor is very, very small. And the only reason for the difference between those two is that people have to, you know, are told part of a healthy diet is to eat fruit and veg. And tea isn't. So tea gets a smaller, if you will, slice of the RDI for these, uh safe RDI uh for these agrochem residues. So tea is particularly safe. The other point I'd like to make about tea bags is, you know, not only are teabag grades not inferior to leaf grades, but when you make, when a producer uh makes leaf tea, he cannot help but make teabag grades too, because you're basically crushing the leaf and it will naturally fall into different sized particles. And then they after them after drying, they sieve these uh these particles out into different sizes, and the leaf is sold. If you don't buy so the people that buy leaf tea go, oh, we're paying a good price for tea, hope it gets back to the farmer. If you denigrate the smaller leaf, that's when farmers lose their shirt. And so, you know, sustainable harvesting in anything, be it uh, you know, you can speak to farmers around the world, you know, like ugly fruit or ugly veg kills that industry. And is, frankly speaking, food waste. Um so we're for uh encouraging the adoption of all grades, and um the use of tea bags is a way of, frankly speaking, making that convenient for the consumer.
SPEAKER_00:What is the difference between bleached or unbleached bags or some of the bags, uh uh styles or looks and things along that lane? And what is the impact on the tea when you do those sort of things?
SPEAKER_07:Well, the impact on the tea is absolutely nothing, um, because you know the bleached tea bag, the process is a washed process. So uh there's there's there's no residue um of the bleaching process in that paper. The the issue about bleaching bleaching paper is really the production of grey water. Um you know, for the you know, making pay making paper is a water-hungry activity. Um you know, uh all paper mills are called paper mills because they exist on waterways. Um and and and they they and the traditional way of doing it would be you'd go you do the bleaching and then you go through this washing or rinsing process for the paper uh to take off all those residues, and that water would be returned into the water stream. Right. Which was which was just not on. Well, then you know, no one well, it still goes on, unfortunately, in in many places in the world. But the tea, frankly speaking, the people that produce teabag paper, and there's only uh yeah, I mean, there's two main producers, and they're Europeans, and the Europeans, frankly speaking, are much stricter than we North Americans are with regards to environmental controls. And so the gray water that's produced from the bleaching process is totally internally recycled. It's a closed, it's a closed cycle affair. And and that is uh filtered internally and reused. Um and it's you know, it's chlorinated which it is, chlorinated bleach uh products, you know, it's a it's got a low boiling point. So it's a very it's a very easy thing to um to to to to skim, if you will.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so the the study that was out there was flawed regarding plastics and tea bags?
SPEAKER_07:It was overstated. And yes, the it was flawed. Um I will share with you the the positional. I I will share with you the positional paper. It is uh it is it was commissioned by the European Tea Committee, which is a sort of overriding um uh body for you know it's it's an association. Um so I can't um I can't uh publish it myself. People would have to go to the European Tea uh the ETC uh to ask for a copy, but I can paraphrase it and send it to you.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Okay. So in essentially there was uh some significant flaws in the in it, and I believe actually some of the materials inside the bags were misinterpreted. Totally.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. It was a it was a it was uh yes, it was not a a a study that would carry any um gravitas in scientific circles.
SPEAKER_00:Certainly it got a lot of media attention, and a lot of people a lot of people ask me about it, but and I try to explain that no, there's been some significant flaws in it, and and this podcast might be one of the places. So what's the name of the study and where can people get it?
SPEAKER_07:Uh well they can't as I said, they have to go to the European T Committee, ETC, and they can look that up and they can and they can request uh this study. Uh and um and I and honestly, uh will they give it to them? Um who knows, but they will they will give them a a statement based from this uh study. I mean, I I know that it you know it will get published um at some time. Um I should just try to find for you if I can. Uh sorry. Um, I can't at the moment. Anyway, I will as I say, I will shortly after this, I will get you the uh the script.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, not a problem.
SPEAKER_07:And you can share it with your audience.
SPEAKER_00:Very good. So, John, tell us recently you went to a country to establish a tea industry or help them with their tea industry, with the UN. Maybe you can explain or give us some details of what you did with the United Nations and in regards to tea in a country.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, so I I do from time to time work with the uh FAO of the United Nations and the Food and Agriculture Organization, uh, which works in LDDC or least developed developing countries, third world countries, to try and uh mainly on food risk uh uh programs. And we've done a number of these uh and tea is a useful crop because one is that it doesn't it doesn't it it can grow on marginal lands, as we say. It can grow on inclined slopes, acidic soils, and therefore is not taking away from uh from annual harvests such as wheat or anything else or vegetables. So it's actually accretive to any agrarian um uh community's income. Uh this was in Pakistan. Pakistan is the largest importer of tea in the world. They drink an amazing amount of tea. Uh$760 million worth in the last year. Is that Canadian, American,$760? US US, US. Okay. And um, and that, just given population increase, uh, et cetera, without any increase in value of tea, will be a billion dollars by 2030. So Pakistan used to grow tea because Pakistan was before the before the separation of East and West Pakistan, East Pakistan being Bangladesh today. And Bangladesh has its um tea growing uh tea growing industry, uh which is now all exported to other countries and not Pakistan. So after Pakistan started actually drinking uh Sri Lankan tea, importing Sri Lankan tea, and eventually moved over to Kenyan tea. And Kenya is now the majority, 90% of everything that's drunk in Pakistan is there. So anyway, the Pakistan government has a need to get rid of this huge outflow of foreign exchange, which they don't have, frankly. Um, and uh that plus some control over the risk and the the the food stress within agrarian communities led them to believe that growing tea again would be a good program. So I was over there to build a strategy. Um they have they have a lot of very skillful um uh agro scientists there. They have a research research foundation out there that looks at tea and other crops. And so I was I'm I'm really employed to give them a realist approach. In a world where, frankly speaking, we don't need more tea to be planted out. We have an excess of supply, but sometimes and sometimes of the wrong type. Why would you grow tea? Well, only if you have a control, if you have a very large domestic, um domestic consumption uh uh uh pattern, which they do. So that's that's what we are there to do. Uh interesting country, you know, in the northeastern part of the country, it's all tribal. Obviously, they're close to the Afghan border, so there's some security issues, um, and uh and there's uh a lot of political uh movement within Pakistan, which which and and you know, frankly speaking, that's the big that's the biggest problem for when you try and plant out tea. Tea takes in mountain areas like that, it takes eight years before you reach full harvest. Okay. That is twice that is twice as long as most electoral cycles. So if you if you're asking a government uh to invest in tea, the answer is probably no. Um so you have to find uh, you know, public-private partnerships are the only way to really grow tea, unless, of course, you're in a uh political environment where um elections are uh are not a thing.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Interesting. So and the end result is what what do you think is going to happen there in Pakistan?
SPEAKER_07:Well, it'll be interesting. We look, we had a kickoff meeting just um I mean, basically the government's all for it. Um the the strategy that we wrote has been gratefully received. Um there is already a lot of interest from uh external investment, uh potential investors, particularly from China, because they have this CPEC, which is the China Pakistan economic corridor. They have a good relationship there. So a lot of people from Shanghai were actually in the room for this presentation. And I think that there is a very good chance that we will see, well, we will see more T. Because there is some tea there. We'll see more tea planted out in the next year. And uh and I I I I have a little I have faith that the first plan that we put together, which is the planting out of tea between now and 2030, will take place. And then it's purely a question of whether the economics actually make sense. And and you know, it is a very fragmented um fragmented industry within uh within Pakistan. Uh so we're trying to create links that will keep most of the margin within the industry actually at the point of production. Because, frankly speaking, usually tea growing it um maintains a single percentage uh level of the total margin. And you know, brands and retailers, uh, particularly here, for instance, would control 70% of margin. Oh, 80% of margin, pardon me. So if you can vertically integrate at where the tea is grown, not only produce a finished bulk product, but pack it into CPG, into these consumer packaged goods, and just distribute to markets, then I think you're in a very good place for sustainable business.
SPEAKER_00:Well, very good. Very good. Uh John, one of the last things I wanted to talk to you about was, well, there's lots of things I want to talk about, but on this podcast, anyways, was about various blends of teas for medicinal applications uh that you suggest. Uh, you know, and it's it's a new, I don't know what you want to call it, a new fat, a new trend, a new understanding of and people are looking at their health in here in North America anyways, in a very different way. So when we look at tea blends, so such as, you know, I I know my my wife Diane has difficulty sleeping. So I try to come up with a blend for her and and things like your favorite Valerian root, as as well as other blends for sleep like Ashwaganda or almonds and things like that, uh, that can go into teas. What do some of the ones say for various applications that uh you're aware of or deal with or or have or know that are being produced out there? So even if you start with the um uh sleep issues.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I mean, I so I think that uh, you know, the whole key in health thing is is um you know is both a boon and there's a warning that comes with that, and that is that uh you know, if you concentrate entirely on wellness, then you then eventually compete with drugs. And yet tea is not that. Tea is natural and tasty, and it is first and foremost, first and foremost should be enjoyed. And secondly, it's enjoyable hydration. And you know, that that so I I want to make that point first, Jerry, because that's that's that's important. Don't don't just take this for health and wellness, make sure that it tastes great. So you brought up my favorite Valerian, which I hate, which I hate, but it's but it is very efficacious when it comes to sleep and rest. So um, but you know, so I always use blends. And the blends are really to, if you will, modify some of those slightly well polarizing taste profiles, and at the same time, obviously, they can't uh they can't combat that original request, if you will. So Valerian, obviously chamomile works well with that. Lavender is good to mix uh in there too. You know, lavender is more um, I'd say, it that's the psychology of sleep. Lavender is not necessarily got the chemistry to affect sleep, but it's but it's caffeine-free, and and that scent and aroma is used, is ubiquitous in sort of sleep or calming uh products around. So, so by all means, you use it, uh, use it well. And and and then a lot of the and then I say, you know, what affects sleep? Well, it's not just your need to relax, but it's also you can't go to bed and and relax if your stomach is you know misbehaving. So things like spearmint and peppermint are very good for um calming stomachs, and and so to utilize those in sleep remedies uh really help as well. So I'm I'm for, if you will, a hybrid approach to uh to sleep, which is sleep is also gut calm as well. Um so so so that works well for me. Um tea is a particularly, you know, it's drunk predominantly predominantly by females, uh to be honest. So there's a lot of uh products that are I would say are more focused towards women. So raspberry leaf, you mentioned it, yes, is particularly good. And and I would say that in combination with that, uh I find milk thistle, um, which which has a couple of benefits, but also has uh has been shown to help with lactation. So this is good for sort of pregnancy as well as uh for general um uh monthly calm, can I say? Uh so yeah, raspberry leaf, milk thistle, uh, nettle, uh which is which is particularly good uh in that in that regard, and um and ginger. And you know, ginger again could be used, uh we all know it uh to be good as uh as as a as a stomach karma, but it is also very good at regulating uh regulating um uh uh blood. So ginger, nettle, milk thistle, raspberry leaf, uh is is is is a cracking combination. And again, you can you know spearmint is uh spearmint or peppermint, your choice, my choice would be spearmint, um uh in in in small doses to it's a good it's a good binder for the very disparate um tastes of all these uh things.
SPEAKER_00:So I would uh I would be that so with with things like the the Valerian root, which for those that don't know it, it kind of smells like parmesan cheese to me.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, that's a much more polite, that's a much more polite description than mine.
SPEAKER_00:Um what what would you add in it in a teabag if you're making your own up to to make sure it has a, as you said, a nice flavor and something to enjoy and taste? Would the spearmint cover that up or the mint?
SPEAKER_07:So so without a doubt. I mean, you know, spearmint, you know, if I was doing I I would put valerian at about no more, no more than 40, sort of you could use it at half. If you if you wanted to make one out from loose leaf, I'd say a teaspoon, a teaspoon of valerian, a teaspoon of camarad, and half a teaspoon of spearmint, and you'll and that will be that will be just fine. That that sort of ratio uh will will work. And um look, and I and I I know I mentioned to you, uh Jerry, I I do actually produce a blend uh that has Valerian in it, and in it's in a range of uh seven teas that um I I'm I'm very pleased to be able to produce for an indigenous uh brand Cabernish. And uh this particular tea, which is a sleep uh tea, um, is actually my favorite out of the seven, which surprised me because well, I'm just not a fan of it straight. But it but I was very pleased with the end result.
SPEAKER_00:So, John, so some of the other issues, uh most people don't realize this, but the number one senior issue is what can I do or how can I help to make sure I don't get Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, and those sorts of brain issues. Are there teas out there that you're aware of? Because I know things like Lion's mane or ginseng, or there's a number of Ashwagandha, Basil, uh green teas as well, and some of the others, turmeric and things like that, that uh work with brain function issues. Are there blends out there that work with uh mental and and brain uh assistance?
SPEAKER_07:So I'm I'm I I I'm not yeah, I'm a bit of a cynic with I I I think that we have to bear in mind, you know, what is the most useful thing about tea in my mind? Tea is a whether it's a herbal tea or a or chameleon sentences tea, is unlike coffee, it is something that takes time to brew and is something that is usually communal, and uh and and yes, you have to take time over. And so those things for me are more beneficial to the mental state than most extracts that you're going to get from a tea. However, you know, there are uh certain uh certain i items that have circulatory benefits. So for instance, roebus is one of those. Roebus hibiscus is one of those. And actually, roibus and hibiscus work very well together. Um they're complementary in flavor, but they're also complementary in bet in benefit. Right. And and and they have, you know, as well as your chaga, uh, which actually works very well with roebus, um are very strong, uh are powerful against oxidative, you know, stress. So uh you know, those are the best things I think you can do with it. But frankly speaking, I'd say the best thing to keep you know the wolf away from the door is to drink tea. Um you know, I I I if if I look back at the generation before us, um, you know, my parents' generation who you know went through you know the war and and rationing and everything else, the one thing that they had and drank copious quantities of was tea. And and they and because and that was probably because not only did they have a you know there was a dearth of choice, but also because they had time. And I do think that you know, time spent, and it's how you use that time, uh actively utilizing your brain and communicating with other people um, you know, face to face and not over a screen, uh are the the best things that you can do for uh for this. I'm not going to be prescriptive uh with respect to T's for this because I because honestly, I don't have enough uh I don't have enough uh uh clinical data to back this up, to back up a claim on any of these T's.
SPEAKER_00:And that's one of the things with me that that I'm a little obsessive compulsive with. I know with the Chaga when I started uh it was just the right snake oil stuff until I found over a thousand studies worldwide, which have read them all, and started to have uh get testimonials in from individuals and see the results there. But uh other things like uh cardamom or hibiscus or or parsley even certainly have significant benefits or rosemary. They're all various materials out there that potentially can go into a tea that have some potential side effects that are very beneficial to a lot of people.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I mean I I I would say that uh, you know, if someone wants a good read, and one that I, you know, is my sort of Bible uh when I come to these things, I have a few books, but my favorite, frankly, is the Encyclopedia of Herbal Medson uh by uh Andrew Chevalier. And I and I think that his the way that he's uh approached this has been responsible and uh very easy to decipher. And um, and and you know the beauty about it is that it, you know, with with nearly every unlike Camellia Sainensis truth tea, where we are always just harvesting the leaf. So any study to do with tea and health is to do with the leaf. When you're looking at uh many herbal remedies, you are looking at um you're looking, you know, from the same plant. There are different benefits, whether you are using the leaf, the root. I mean, uh uh yes, uh, you know, so there are different parts of the same plant being used for different things. So this this this text is very specific with respect to different health benefits from different parts of that plant. So I I I I recommend it highly.
SPEAKER_00:And so again, it's the Encyclopedia of Herbal Medicine.
SPEAKER_07:Yep, by Andrew Chevalier. That's C-H-E-V-A-L-L-I-E-R.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Um I've made a note of that. I'm gonna look that up and see if I can find one. Well, John, I very much appreciate uh the you taking the time again. Hopefully uh we got it all this time. It uh didn't seem that we had a couple of glitches there, but I think we're okay for a recording. And uh how can people get in touch with you or find out more details? Or oh, you've got an event coming up in January where you'll be speaking at uh to maybe you can uh elaborate on that a bit. Sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:That is the uh Toronto Tea Festival. It's a really good show. If you like, if you like tea and want to see a huge variety of tea, get down to the Toronto uh Reference Library on Young at Young and Bloor, just north of uh Bloor. And on the 31st of January and the 1st of February, those are the two days. It's over a weekend, so it's not taking out of your work time. And um and come in here. There's a there's a there'll be a bunch of different talks. Uh we're going to, we're looking at, I work with a small Utakand uh-based uh tea producer who is has given up half the half the company to the smallholder uh planters and and farmers uh within the area. And uh so we're going to be talking about the true cost of tea because you know the majority of the teas that you find on the shelf, they I don't care whether they've got fair trade, rainforest alliance, whatever certification, they're just marketing marks, frankly, and they do not guarantee a living wage for these people. So we're trying to um we're trying to change that that narrative to make sure that uh this isn't market-driven, but it is cost and livelihood driven. So that's uh that's the that's the idea. But um, come along. There's lots of sampling, free sampling, and your tastees, I'm sure that you've never tasted before.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thanks again, John. I appreciate that. And you'll be there, you're speaking there. I am indeed. Yeah. Very good.
SPEAKER_07:I I'll be there both days. Okay. Well, thanks for Oh, sorry. Yeah, sorry. And if you you asked if people did want to contact me, I mean the easiest place to do that, you can either go to my if you go to nm teabntb.com. There's a contact page there. That's my uh sort of consultancy site and the easiest one to reach me on.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Well, thanks very much, John. I very much appreciate that, and I'm sure we'll be in to see you with processing some product in the near future again.
SPEAKER_07:That's you look forward to seeing you, and and Caesar's greetings to you and all your listeners.
SPEAKER_00:And same to you. Thanks again, John. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_04:Come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lunches. I'm your host, Steve Quickey, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, The First of the Lunar. This comedy will be more than that. Every week on the Ferris of the Joker, I'm going to introduce you to great people. Share the stories about tribulations and inspirations.
SPEAKER_05:And we always decide we are going to be fishing.