Under the Canopy

Episode 140: Maple Season Secrets

• Outdoor Journal Radio Podcast Network • Episode 140

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:09:01

Yellow sap in your bucket can feel like a panic moment, and it’s exactly the kind of mystery we love digging into. We sit down with Jeff Wagner of Wagner Maple Products, a working Ontario maple syrup producer, to sort out what’s normal, what’s a warning sign, and what’s really happening inside the tree when winter and spring don’t behave the way they used to.

We talk through the on-the-ground realities of a tough sugar season: tapping and fixing lines in four feet of snow, chasing leaks, and dealing with sap runs that now stretch overnight. Jeff explains modern maple tubing and high-vacuum systems in plain language, including what “inches of vacuum” means, why sealed systems matter, and how vacuum helps producers keep yields up as seasons get shorter. Then we get into reverse osmosis for maple sap, how RO concentrates sap to save hours of boiling, why it can also concentrate bacteria, and where the flavour tradeoffs start to show up when producers push concentration too far.

From there we hit the questions that every backyard tapper and serious sugar maker asks sooner or later: what causes yellow sap and higher invert sugar, why cloudy sap is often still fine, what “stringy sap” looks like when bacteria take over, and how cleaning and timing can save your entire batch. We also cover niter (sugar sand), filtering headaches, how soil pH and limestone can stress trees, and even why maple forests depend on complex fungal relationships under the canopy. We wrap with practical consumer details like syrup grades, label requirements, and a quick look at birch syrup’s unique flavour and higher cost.

If you care about maple syrup production, sugar bush management, sap chemistry, or just making better syrup at home, you’ll come away with answers you can use. Subscribe, share this with a fellow syrup nerd, and leave a review with the weirdest sap question you’ve run into.

Outdoor Journal Radio Trailer

SPEAKER_07

Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola. And I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, Angie and I will be right here in your ears, bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm. Now what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.

SPEAKER_01

I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors. From athletes.

SPEAKER_01

All the other guys would go golfing. Me and Garchomp Turk. And all the Russians would go fishing. The scientists. And now that we're reforesting and letting things, it's the perfect transmission environment for line disease. To chefs. If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated for you will taste it.

SPEAKER_07

And whoever else will pick up the phone. Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Under The Canopy Introduction

Wood Ash Uses Around Home

Tea Giveaway And Market Contest

Jeff Wagner Joins The Show

SPEAKER_04

As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Olette, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy Podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully, we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Okay, as always, we want to thank our listeners and very much appreciate everything that uh you do for us and all the stuff that uh you bring forward and the questions and the ideas for shows and things like that. And uh, you know, I gotta tell you, there were some questions I got about uh what do I do with the ash from the fireplace insert that we had? Because basically uh the season's done now. And the um all year long, all I did was basically burn wood. And um I had a large abundance of ash. Well, a couple things. Through the before the snow started to fall, I dug a couple of holes in the yard, and that was mostly because of uh uh my best buddy uh chocolate lab uh gunner. And so I had a place to put his business uh all winter long, so I could just bury it in the hole that was there. And to be perfectly honest, what I did was I had a couple of dips in the yard in the in the lawn that were I gotta fill that. I keep filling it with with dirt and and topsoil and stuff, and but it never seems to get filled up. So I dug it a little bit deeper and filled that up. And then I poured ash and mixed it all together with his yard waste, with his uh uh how shall I say it, gunner landmines in the backyard, and poured a bunch of it there. But I also uh I used to spread it in the garden as well as the lawn because and I'd met with some uh lawn people, some uh I didn't talk to Bev, the master gardener, about it. I think I didn't, but uh was to try and change the pH of the soil. I spread the ash on the soil in order to keep grubs away. And to be perfectly honest, uh we did have some success in doing that. And when um when I spread the ash, uh the the grubs uh seemed to uh work very effectively in staying away. And whether that had anything to do with it or not, I don't know, but it seemed to help. And not only that, but I also use it uh the for the trail that I built, I'll put some ash and fill some holes in the trail and some uh moisture spots, and also uh where we tap our our uh maple syrup from. The um the roadway in needed a little bit of help, so I filled a bunch of holes there. So that was uh pretty good in making sure that we had a lot of ash. Now, some of the other stuff was is that uh um with all the marathon drives I did with Garrett coming back from Calgary, you know, I finished the the Toronto Sportsman show, got back, unloaded the vehicle, next day I jumped, went to the airport and then did a marathon drive with with Garrett, and you gotta remember there was a four-day show there and everything else. And poor Gunner, he's uh putting on a little bit of weight because guess who's missing out on his runs, not getting them the way he used to? Which, you know, it's it's expected. So he's put on a little bit of weight and is a little sluggish now, which makes me concerned because he's my best bud. And so it's just like, oh great, you know, I had that tick bite on him that I wanted to get him tested for, and they said, well, when he starts the show Shines that he's sluggish or having problems, then come and see us. Uh well, it's like a year later now, and I think he's okay, but and I'm gonna plan on that. And and anyway, so we've got I regularly give him the Chaga capsules to to boost his immune system and get rid of inflammation, so hopefully that'll that'll come back. Now, one of the things I want to mention to people is anybody's listening, for the next uh rest of the month of April on Saturdays, from basically it's the runs from 7 till 1. Um and I usually tell people 8 till 12 because people usually show up at 5 to 1 when everybody's packing up trying to get out. Um, but if you show up at the Morrow Building in Peterborough and you tell me my Gunner's name, my chocolate lab's name, Gunner, I will hand out a free package of tea to anybody that shows up. Because this way I can tell who's listening to the podcast and and come into the uh the events like this. Not only that, but I'm gonna have a contest there, and I just need you to fill out, give us your name and uh email address so we can send out their and phone number so we can send out, just like we did at the the past shows I did in Belleville and in Toronto, where I actually gave out a a complete package of one of each of the teas, and we're gonna be doing that at the end of the month. So I'll continue that on, and anybody shows up, you fill out the form, you tell me uh Gunner's name, and you get a free package of tea, no charge. And we appreciate uh all the listeners and all you do and all across Canada, the States, and around the world. And we're back now, it's that time of year where I brought a guest back into the program that we had as one of our first guests, and that's Jeff Wagner. Welcome back, Jeff. Well, how's it going, Jerry? It's going well. It's going well, you know. It's it's uh life is good as I always say, can't complain. You know, it always could be a little bit better. I I gotta tell you, Jeff, and I've been pushing it pretty hard. Um, and of course, we just finished Easter and we had uh uh my oldest son Josh's in-laws in from the Bahamas, so they were over for Easter. And we go to my mother's and have uh dinner there, which I do most of the the managing and uh cook the turkey and all the rest and get it all organized, et cetera. Because mom's 91 and she's still out on a nice day, uh sunny day. She'll be out twice a day, 45 minutes to an hour walking and eight to ten kilometers, and she's 91 still going. But uh, I got a little bit run down, and probably for I don't know, you could count on one hand the amount of times I've been sick in the past ten years, and I got something that uh put me down for a couple of days, but I'm back up and running and everything's going good. How are you doing, Jeff?

Deep Snow Makes Tapping Hard

SPEAKER_02

Oh, staying healthy, although this sugar season has been uh pretty hard on the body. Uh we started off the season and there was a good four or four and a half feet of snow. And our bush, um, you know, there's been a lot of uh down brush in the last couple of years with various different ice storms and storms. And they hold the snow up. So, you know, every every it's like every fifth step you go down to your waist. But we got her done with snowshoes tapping in. Um fixing lines was also pretty hard this year. Just getting around the bush when the snow's that deep, it it really does uh it does make it a lot harder. You know, you know you've you've done a day when you've walked a good five, six hours through the bush. The thing is uh I'm always carrying um uh repair vest and uh and a drill as well to pick up any miss taps from the crew, uh myself and a couple other people to help me tap in. And yeah, it was tough. Um and the snow finally um I can finally walk through the bush now, just the last three days, so I was able to chase down any leaks in my vacuum and move forward. Right. But I tell you, she's hard on the Achilles.

SPEAKER_04

So, okay, so uh Jeff, now Jeff is a maple syrup producer and has a business, um Wagner Maple Products. And uh how many taps do you have, Jeff?

SPEAKER_02

Um we're we're what I call a large small operation. We have about 1,700 taps on about 900 trees.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. So yeah, so and and I met with one guy that was that uh they had 80,000 taps in the Barrie area. So that would be a big operation, I would think.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, without a doubt, that is a huge operation. Um generally, as a cereal producer, we're aiming for about a liter of finished syrup per tap. So I'm always looking at around 16 to 700 liters. I'm falling short of that. Is here but an operation like that, it is a multi-man operation. It's a uh it's a big costing operation. And generally, um they're there's two ways you go with such a large operation like that. You basically produce syrup into barrels and then you sell it at at the best price you can, maybe to Quebec, maybe to other uh distributors, or you've got your own distribution network that you feed into, right? Yeah, that's a big operation.

Ontario And Quebec Maple Markets

SPEAKER_04

Well, and I I think that the there's uh potential more markets out there. I mean, I think if um Ontario did a little bit more marketing in certain sectors, I I recall, and well, uh a little bit of a story here, Jeff. So what happened was um our sons, uh Josh and Garrett, Josh the oldest and Garrett's the youngest, and they're around uh 10 years old, 10, 11 years old. And they're saying, Dad, how come, you know, such and such, they all go to Mexico and Cuba and and uh the Caribbean and uh Bahamas and the States and Myrtle Beach, and we don't go anywhere. He said, Well, I said, you know, um we uh have a cottage lot uh that uh you know we're building and building a cottage there. Oh yeah, but uh but they have a trailer. And I said, Oh yeah, but they keep saying they're gonna sell it. Anyways, um uh and this went on, and you know, this is uh plus you guys play rep hockey and oh yeah, but they play hockey. I said they play housekeeping hockey, and they spend for an entire year what we spend in a week for for you guys to play. So, you know, but I tell you what, we get through uh what we're dealing with now, which quite frankly was a political election, and in the spring we'll go somewhere. Where do you want to go? Oh, really? So I've never been anywhere. So what's it gonna take to get this out of your system? Anyway, so um I said, okay, mom and I'll decide where we go. Just tell us the criteria by which we make the decision. Oh, okay. Well, it doesn't matter just so long as there's lots of sand. So um that uh April we spent two weeks in Egypt. Fantastic. And the reason I mentioned this, Jeff, is that when we're in Egypt, the one thing that I noticed was that at the hotels we were staying at, and to be honest, we used air miles and aeroplan for flights and accommodations and everything. And we're staying at hotels, and the hotels say 10% real maple syrup in it.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yes, they add a smidgeon to it for sure.

SPEAKER_04

I I was just shocked. I was like, what? Really? I said I had no idea that they would do that kind of stuff. But guess what? If we had markets and then be able to push things like maple syrup, your industry as a whole would would certainly jump up quite a bit, I would think.

Heartwood Mistakes And Tree Stress

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, there's that whole controversy now that's happening in Quebec uh that's uh growing right now about fortifying um sap with cane sugar and then using that to boil down. Um that is, I mean, if you're if you're making a product just for yourself, your your friends and family, if you don't get that much sap, then yeah, you want to cut down the boiling times a bit and are willing to add a bit of uh cane sugar, fine. I mean, just but uh as far as producers are concerned, that is an absolute no-no. Yes. And and we do get uh randomly tested by Omtifa, which is Ontario Maple syrup producers. And so, yeah, that's so, and and I I have I freely open my bush to anybody that drops by. I've actually had five different uh families come by just this season alone, and I absolutely love showing what it takes to produce maple syrup. But I want to get back to this Quebec versus Ontario. Oh, yeah. Um, when I first started getting into this, Homspa was uh really big on telling Ontario um we have more maple trees than Quebec does, and that is absolutely true. So we have about 1.3 million hectares of uh top level maple stands, and in Quebec they only have 620,000. But I think uh Quebec, I know Quebec for sure is much more organized at the provincial level, as you know. They have the Zero Bank, which right now is a bit low, um, that it's being depleted a bit because they had a couple tough seasons in Quebec, and it looks like this might be a third tough season. Um so they're looking to purchase more on terrorists here. I know that a lot of the stands here are on Crown Land, and maybe that's one thing we can do is uh lobby the provincial government to see, make it more streamlined to access some of the Crown Land. I know there's some Omstapa land, there's about a thousand hectares, there's about a thousand hectares just on the opposite side of the road that is loaded with maple trees. And maybe when I retire, I might look into expanding a bit into there as well. Um it requires a lot of infrastructure, you have to put the lines in. So um right now it's it's not as robust as you'd want it to be to make a significant investment to maybe double the number of tops I have right now. But yeah, Ontario has more maple trees. Uh the Quebec's a lot more organized, right?

SPEAKER_04

I certainly know, Jeff. Um when I was in the the um back in the 90s, I was in the forest industry and and I worked with um selling uh veneer logs to a lot of uh companies. And one of the first questions they asked was, is this a maple syrup bush?

SPEAKER_02

Yes. I know where this is going.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, because they did not want any of the trees that were for veneer logs that were tapped because of the way what happens is I don't know how you describe it when you're trying to describe it on a podcast without a um a visual.

SPEAKER_02

I can say the tap holes read through the veneers. I've actually bought some maple panels with tap holes with plugs in them, like veneered panels. Um now I also in a lot of bushes south of us, um, the maples are very hardy. Um they're not stressed at all, and they don't have very long bowls. Bowls are the part of the tree before the first limb starts. They might get 25 to 30 feet. Um, where I'm at, I'm just south of the shield. My maples are hugely stressed. And uh one indicator is that is generally when you're tapping your holes, they recommend that you go about an inch and a half. If I go inch and a half, I'm hitting artwood. Oh, really? So yeah, I I I only can tap one inch because you can't hit heartwood when you tap. So my maples are stressed, and but what happens is they grow a lot taller. Right. So, you know, if you were to pull if I ever allowed this, which I don't think I would, but um, if you were to go through my bowls, are some of the trees are 50 feet before you get to the first branch, right?

SPEAKER_04

Right. Yeah, and it's nine foot eight uh sections. And in order to be what's called number one stick for veneer, there had to be no branches and very, very minimal curve in the uh the log and nine foot eight inches long, because that's kind of the uh it's actually like a huge mill where they they soak the logs in water and then they bring them out, they they debark them, and then they kind of put like two uh two holders on the ends of the logs and then spin it round and peel it off with a uh a very sharp blade. And that's how they get their veneer. But so you mentioned about not hitting the heartwood. What happens if when you're doing maple syrup, if you hit the heartwood?

SPEAKER_02

Well, when you're drilling, and you know the wood is generally white, blonde white.

SPEAKER_04

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Um and you know you've gone too deep when all of a sudden when you pull the bit out and you're seeing a lot of the darker brown caramel, it looks like it's caramelized wood. Yeah, and that's the dead wood or the heartwood of the maple tree. Yeah, and that doesn't regenerate and that can't heal. So that pocket will remain there for the life of the tree. Whereas if you're tapping into heartwood or the or the live wood, that will heal up generally completely closed on a healthy maple in a year. And on maples that are a bit stressed, sometimes it takes two years to heal the hole, but that will fully recover. There might be there will be stain, which you call sticker stain, right? Or tap stain that extends like a it's almost like a a slit about six inches above and below the hole and about uh an inch wide, where that wood is effectively dead, right? Um, but sap will still flow through that and the hole will still heal. Um, and that's why it doesn't make for very good plywood. Not only do you get the hole, but you get these these slits of uh of dark wood, right?

SPEAKER_04

Right. So and and some of it is uh the one thing that I found was that because I I recall dealing with a major maple uh corporation, uh the president from a company, and where were they coming out of cap, I think, cap is casing. And uh that's one of one of the things that I mentioned to them that the heartwood in maples in northern Ontario is far larger than I found than the heartwood in in maples in southern Ontario. And I don't know whether the reason was, whether it was a different strain of maple. That's something I I can't verify that I checked, but I just noticed that uh the heartwood in northern um logs was was far uh larger, comparatively speaking, to the southern Ontario maples. Uh any any thoughts on that, or have you heard of that?

Soil PH Wood Ash And Fungi

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's a that's a great point. So maple trees, um you then this will tie into your wood ash story. Um maple trees um really like a soil that's um um slightly acidic, too. Moderately acidic. Um and um so on trees that grow in moderately acidic soils that you might find on the shield or or areas where there's not that much limestone, the maple trees will thrive and they grow um a lot faster, a lot more hardy. So your heartwood is going to be a lot larger. The live wood of the tree will be a lot larger because it can support that and the growth rings are much larger. So, you know, if you're growing maples on the shield, that is exactly what you've got if you've got topsoil. And the further north you go, guess what? You're on the shield. So that might have some of it to do with maple trees, right? Which is why you don't want to sprinkle uh you have to watch it with wood ash, especially if it's hardwood wood ash, because it's very alkaline, right? And it brings the pH down. Right. So in my bush, I'm borderline alkaline. I mean borderline alkaline on my my soil because there's so much lime. I'm just south of the shield, and you can't even put a shovel in the ground more than three inches before you hit limestone. Really? So that's another reason why my maples are stressed and they don't have as much hardwood, is because the soil is a borderline alkaline, and maple trees they really want to see a bit more pH, like a seven or higher, right?

SPEAKER_04

So is that something that people I I wouldn't imagine that it'd be something you'd want to check uh before. If you've got maples, you've got maples. You've got maples, yeah, for sure. But uh so in maple trees uh is a good indicator I've always found for people that listen to the other some of the other shows that we have where good spots to pick uh wild leaks, or even that's where you'll see trilliums a lot of the times in the same bush. Yep. Yep. And those are good indicators that uh because I'll get a lot of people asking about ramps or wild leeks. And I always say, you know, where you find trilliums or you find maples is a good spot to where you'll find uh le wild leeks as well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, again, it's that maples are an indicator that you have uh slightly acidic soil because they thrive on the And and maples, as you a lot of the users may not know this, but maples also are an organism that works in conjunction with uh a fairly common fungus where we are, as well as also some yeasts and spores in the ground. So that is fairly well documented. Where maple trees they do require these additional um different organisms in the soil to thrive. Right. I know there's being there's a long old story about um um a story that was told by Omspa where the Chinese wanted to start to see if they could grow sugar maples and they could never uh never have a stand of maple survive simply because of this complex biome that only exists in maple uh sugar maple growing areas, right?

SPEAKER_04

Right. Now um for for the listeners that are out there, if you if you want to watch a YouTube video that you'll find absolutely fascinating, it's called The Secret Language of Trees, and it talks about the the fungal mycological relationship between trees and how they actually talk to each other through uh through um fungus or or it's uh mycological, it's an arbuscular relationship that basically circles uh the roots of the tree and then they connect through the ground to other trees and they talk to each other. Fascinating. It's a Canadian discovery from Susan out of BC, I think it's the University of B.C., but uh very, very interesting and very informative. And I I'm assuming that's the relationship that you're talking about with uh maple trees. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. That's a favorite book of mine. Um yeah, it's even more complex than that because maples are very specific about what it is that uh that they work on. And um, you know, last year with the ice storm, we lost a lot of like on that note, um, we lost a lot of about 10% of our canopy with the ice storm. We had three and a half inches or three and a half centimeters of uh of ice. And uh we we got off fairly light. Um, but I thought that the trees would be weeping all kinds of sap in a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And uh instead the trees just shut down. So we were ready to get, we got out about two runs after the ice storm. And then even though we had great syrup making weather, the trees just shut off. It's like they all talk to each other. They said we're not gonna give any more sap. And guess what? There wasn't any weeping from any of the broken branches at the top of the tree. Um, I keep on saying the trees are smarter than us, and uh they keep on proving me right every year. But yeah, they they they definitely do communicate.

Snow Height Changes Tap Placement

SPEAKER_04

Well, Jeff, with you're talking about walking uh with horseshoes, uh horseshoes, snowshoes, and uh yeah, horseshoes, uh with snowshoes. Uh did it change the level of where you're tapping in the tree?

SPEAKER_02

Um so we have mean lines. Generally, not really, no. Okay. Um we have um we we have overall lines. We don't use pails. Right. So the loops around the trees, really the lines up year-round, which is common for most operations now that run lines. And you're limited by how far up and how far down you can tap by the by the the pigtail that you have on the on the trees, you know, that that has those short little maybe two feet to two and a half feet long with a spile on it. And you're limited by that. So um, and we usually tap around the tree, so now it doesn't really affect it that way. But if you're doing pails, yeah, the running joke is um you tap at your waist with four feet of snow, and by the time the snow's gone, the the the pails are like like five feet, six feet high. Yeah, it becomes really hard to empty them. Yeah, that's an old story.

SPEAKER_04

Uh well, I I gotta tell you, uh that was one of the things in my podcast that I mentioned this year was that I was tapping so much higher that you can see that uh it was quite a bit higher than uh uh previous years, because you've got basically your the area where you tap, you can see the old taps. And this was significantly higher with all the snow that we had this year that I was tapping. And mind you, I only have like, I don't know, what, 150 taps uh around there, 130, 150 taps, so nowhere near the operation that you have. But yeah, I certainly saw the difference. And and one of the things now, when did you get your first boil, as they say, Jeff?

SPEAKER_02

Um was a bit late this year. It was uh March March 5th is when the first boil we had. We tapped in in February with in our region we tend to be a bit colder. We tapped in um from February from February 25th to the 28th. It took us four days to tap because of the snow.

SPEAKER_03

Really?

SPEAKER_02

And then uh yeah, we started getting then it got a bit cold and we got our first run in the first week of March. We got uh three runs and I boiled the first first two runs, yeah. So we were working up the first of March, which was pretty good.

SPEAKER_04

I actually had a boil in January this year.

SPEAKER_02

If you were to tap, yeah, yeah, it was still a bit too cold for us, but we and that's a good point. This year we didn't have that historic thaw in the first or second week of January. We didn't have that.

SPEAKER_04

No. No, so so I actually had one boil, a small boil in January, but then everything shut down completely until, like you said, basically it was about March.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It was like that, yeah.

High Vacuum Tubing Systems Explained

SPEAKER_04

So one of the things that I'm finding now, uh Jeff, is that um the taps that I did in January have all dried up.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. You've got um, so uh maple trees, um, they want to heal. Um their immune system is very complex. And by the time you tap, you have anywhere from six to eight weeks. Uh general where we are generally have about six weeks before the heels start to start to heal. Right. Even if you keep vacuum at them, right? The idea is uh when you have high vacuum, if you keep the holes dry, you can maybe get another three to four days out before they'll heal up, for sure.

SPEAKER_04

So maybe uh just so our listeners understand, uh, with the lines you have a vacuum system, kind of explain, walk us through that.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so a modern production, um we started uh going high high vacuum, which is anywhere from 23 to 25 inches of vacuum throughout the bush. And the reason why we went that route, because we were low vacuum for the longest time, around 50, you know, anywhere from 15 to 18 inches. The reason why is uh seasons getting shorter, um, you know, you might still start in March, but you might end up early April, or you might start middle March and go to the end of April. So we're losing a week on either end now, historically, from the data that we had when we started in 98, pardon me, 78. So, in order to get that production back, you can go high vacuum. And there's a lot of studies that are done through um various different vapos syrup agencies. A lot of the data is coming from states where the universities invest heavily into this, and we know that um you get for every inch of vacuum you can get, you up your production by one to two percent. So if you are at 18 inches, let's say you got one unit, but if you go, if you can pull 23 inches to 24 inches of vacuum throughout your bush, you'll gain yourself about another six to eight percent in production, which is meaningful, right?

SPEAKER_04

What do you mean 18 to 24 inches? Just explain the inches.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, inches of specific gravity. So when you're running a vacuum system, there's a couple different ways to measure the amount of vacuum. We use the I I use the old imperial standard of inches of vacuum, right? Where if you have a mercury bulb, how much vacuum does it pull to you know to compress that mercury stem down? How many inches would it be? And it's in specific gravity. Um it can relate to that, but basically it's the amount of vacuum that you can you can put on a system, the lower you go, the more vacuum you have. I have a neighbor that pulls 26 to 27 inches, if you can believe it. And he's got what's called a dry claw vacuum system, whereas I have a wet claw vacuum system.

SPEAKER_04

Now, does does everybody with a line system basically have a vacuum system?

SPEAKER_02

You pretty much have to. I mean, um, if you've maybe got 20, 30 trees and you don't want pails, you can use what's called a naturally uh um aired system where you're relying on gravity. The problem you have is if you have one dip in the line, it creates what's called a vacuum lock. And then you don't get flow until there's enough pressure built up that you get the flow. And vacuum eliminate, and using a vacuum system completely eliminates the vacuum locks. And you can go with a 100% sealed system, so you no longer have to have air at every like a little spigot at every or a little line at every tap to sort of intruse air. So you're running a full closed system. Most producers that have anywhere over 1500 taps and above will go with a vacuum system. And these days you'll also augment it with uh with a vacuum with uh a reverse osmosis system as well.

SPEAKER_04

Right. So is it having a line system with a vacuum, is it harder on the trees? Does it do more, does it, uh or does it affect them in any way, shape, or form?

SPEAKER_02

No, um no. Uh again, the studies have proven uh two things. You can use a much smaller hole in the tree. Yeah. Right. We call health spiles in the back in the day. So it's a 516-inch hole that we tap that fits with the spiles we buy.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And so it's a much smaller hole. And the vacuum doesn't really do anything um to the trees, um, other than you get a bit more production from the tree. Um, and there's strict standards as to how many taps you can put on a tree.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And if you follow organic standards, the maximum number of taps you can put in a tree is three, no matter what size. Really? And usually it's uh, yeah, and there's a strict table as to the diameter of the tree uh given how many taps. It usually starts at about 12 to 13 inches you can start to have one tap. And then it goes up to 16 inches. Uh my rough math here, I actually got a proper gauge to do this, but my rough reckoning is I think it's like 16 inches, two, and then 24, it's three.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, because I know I've I've got some maples where I go that are probably six feet in diameter.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. So you can tap away, but as I said, if you want to go by the organic standards, even though you're not organic, you'd limit to three taps. I noticed um I drive by and I see a few people, they always put out a few buckets and they always tap the tree on the sunny side. Yes. Um, because that's where you get the first flow. But they don't realize if you tark on, if you tap on the the non-sunny side, that's when you get the later flow because the whole teal up a bit slower.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Yeah, and that's the some of the things that I've done as well. But I also look to see if there's a uh when I'm tapping, I look down to see if there's a large root right there as well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, root branch.

SPEAKER_04

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_04

And that's usually a good spot to pick when you're tapping as well. You got it.

SPEAKER_02

Because that's where the water comes through, right? So and another another if you are doing buckets and you want to tap a few maple trees, definitely look for where the big root is, but even more importantly, look where the first big branch is. Yes. And tap underneath that and see if there's a bit of a spiral to the tree. Some maples grow uh counterclockwise. Right. And so you just follow the spiral bit, and that's where the sweet spot's gonna be. But you can't top, you can't tap within uh eight-inch radius of the tree year after year. You can damage the tree. Remember, I said when you tap, you create what's called a stain in the tree that extends up and down.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah. Well, I know that the the the taps uh that I use now are all five sixteenths. And yep, they're all health files.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's what they call them back in the day.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and uh it it uh heals up a lot quicker, I because the larger ones, the old ones, would probably be five eighths, to be honest. Oh yeah, I still remember using those way back in the day. And but those ones, and and those ones, they would not heal in a year. But I'm seeing the the 516s taps every single year have all healed.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they close up, yeah, for sure. And that's really good for the tree.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. So so this system as well, it runs off a like a motor, or does it have to have electricity or uh when you're vacuuming?

Automation And Multi Day Sap Runs

SPEAKER_02

So the system, so and if you were to go to any of the providers, uh any of the larger manufacturers, there's really only two right now. There's Lepcare and CDL, CDI. They have uh systems that are built around uh professional vacuum systems that they package up for maple producers. And they can run 24-7, um, 24 days, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They can run continuous without having any issues whatsoever. And the smaller units are usually what call wet claw. So um very much it's like a supercharger on a car on a car. They use two rotate, counter-rotating uh long gears that mesh intermesh, and that's what creates the vacuum. They spin at very high speeds, driven by a three-phase motor. So we have a single phase to three-phase inverter in our pump house. And um, that's really important that it can run uh continuously because um another big change that we've noticed in the last five to six years is we never used to have runs that would span multiple days. It was always very clear. Cold at night, warm at day, you get your move forward. But nowadays, runs can span two days. Like, for instance, today, the run started uh day and a half ago, right? Right, uh yesterday morning, and it ran through the night. So I I have to set up my tanks. I got lots of capacity. So I set up my tanks and valves to pump into another reserve that I have when I went to bed and they were empty. It went came back this morning, and there was like 600 gallons. So I got 600 gallons of run through the night, and even though it went down to minus one, it doesn't matter. Right. And it started running again today.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so we leave the vacuum running, we it automatically shuts off when it hits between plus one or plus two, depends on how I want to set it, and then it picks up again when it hits plus plus one or plus two. So it's all automated on that end.

Ugly Pike Podcast Network Promo

SPEAKER_08

Back in 2016, Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of musky angling education material anywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_09

Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.

SPEAKER_08

Thus, the Ugly Pike Podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North America.

SPEAKER_09

Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike Podcast. Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous fish of 10,000 casts.

SPEAKER_08

The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing, it's about creating a tight-knit community of passionate anglers who share the same love for the sport. Through laughter, through camaraderie, and an unwavering spirit of adventure, this podcast will bring people together. Subscribe now and never miss a moment of our angling adventures. Tight lines, everyone. Find Ugly Pike now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, we're uh with Tristan in Bellville. Tristan, you've had some experience with the Chaga, the regular tea. Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_00

Um so I actually ran into you about a year ago, same uh place you are now, and uh I uh just was like, oh you know, I'll get a bag and try it. So I think four straight days of drinking one cup of tea every day, I noticed an immediate difference like like in my body just feeling better, and then definitely drink them after drinking the night before like alcohol. It kills hangovers big, big time.

SPEAKER_04

I'll usually have two afterwards, but well, what happens, Tristan, is uh hangovers are essentially a lot of free radicals in your brain. And the antioxidant level is so high in Chega that it eliminates a lot of those kinds of guys have the same thing when they've had a a good night uh and the next day they're hurting feeling for it. And so you have the same result, right? A couple of cups in your that's right. I makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00

I've taken them to faster parties multiple times, and friends of mine that don't drink tea ever, I'll have them drink one in the morning, and even they are saying the first time they've ever had them that they notice a difference that day that they don't feel so cocky, they're not so like blonde, kind of down, and like don't want to do anything. So definitely recommend drinking regularly. Okay, thanks very much, Kristen.

Yellow Sap And Warm Ground Science

SPEAKER_04

We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code CANAPY, C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode. So, Jeff, the original region I reached out to you because I had two trees that were were producing yellow sap. Yes. Is that again, and this was everything else was all white, but these two trees basically, whether I don't know why, but uh they just seem to be producing yellow sap for some reason. Is that anything that people need to worry about?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. So this year um is a very unique year. Um, and I have um so in my particular bush, I know other sear producers are having issues uh within about a hundred kilometer radius of of where I'm at, because I talk to a lot of the producers and the supplier. And uh what's happened this year is we had an early snow, a lot of early snow, and there was no frost in the ground. Right? No frost in the ground. So that means that um the sap in the ground, um, when the maple trees bank the sugars that they collect in the summertime with the leaves through photosynthesis, they bank all of that into the ground, so you know, and they hold that in their root system.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And something happens to the sugars. Um, there are more carbohydrates when they first go into the ground. And in the fall, in the winter time, um, they they go through a frost cycle, and then when the frost starts to come out of the ground, it converts those carbohydrates into sugars, and there's all kinds of proteins and uh and anti and anti um you know uh bacterial, antifungal uh parts of that sap as well, because remember, trees need to have a really robust immune system. They just can't walk to another area when they're stressed.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

Nitre Sugar Sand And Filtering

SPEAKER_02

So all of that, instead of being frozen and locked in and not really working, the ground was a lot warmer this year throughout the winter with all the snow. I mean, we had four or four and a half feet of snow in our bush this year. So that meant that no frost in the ground. Um that means the SAP was converting those rich carbohydrates into the more sugars and invert sugars that we're used to seeing. In this case, more invert sugar. And what that is, is um when this when the when the SAP converts the complex proteins into sugars, um, it's a certain amount of invert sugar that's created. And the more the ground, the more invert sugar you get. It could be anywhere from two to ten percent of your sugar. And what that is, is normal sugar molecules have a certain clockwise orientation, um, whereas invert sugars have a counterclockwise orientation, and uh that's what causes some of the yellowing in your sap. The second thing is uh as I said, the sap has been cooking more through the winter time, and a lot more of the the enzymes and the you know and the the amino acids are are available for the tree to pull from the more readily. What that happened to me is um the first three boils, um my filter system, it was a nightmare to filter my fat. Um and when I opened up the filter system, um there was like only a quarter inch of nitre, but the niter was black, and then when I tasted it, it tasted like topsoil. What's niter? Um so nitre is so in in sap, um you have a certain amount of lime present in the sap.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Lime, right? It's uh it's it's present in the ground. And when you boil the sap down at a certain at a certain rate, when you hit about 55 to 60 percent sugar, this lime now precipitates out as a sand, calcium nitrate. And we call that lime. And what is it? It looks like a sand, a fine sand. And it's uh, and for us producers that are running boilers, we have to develop techniques to allow you to boil through as your as this nitre falls out. And it's usually in your front pan where you do the final boiling, you know, the final flat pan where the highest temperature is, and the nitre drops out and it can clog your pan. So there's uh reverse flows, and there's all these techniques that we have on the evaporators that we can sort of defeat that and keep the the the boil. Going, but we have to filter that out, or else you get what's cloudy sap. So I have a special Syro filter. Some people use filter presses, and these got clogged up on me the first three boils, and it was a nightmare. I had to change the filter three times every boil. And this night it was dirt. And I figure it's because no top, no, no frost. Trees are lazy. They're literally pulling the sap from the parts of the root system that's into the topsoil into the first foot of soil first. Usually that's spread out throughout the year, right?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And but I've got off lucky. Um I have a couple neighbors who have much larger bushes and RO systems. And instead of their filters getting clogged, their ROs were getting clogged with this wood. So they weren't able to run the RO as efficiently as they could, and they had to backwash them a lot more frequently.

Reverse Osmosis For Maple Sap

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so maybe now that you've brought up an RO, you need to explain to our listeners what an RO system is or how it works.

SPEAKER_02

Reverse osmosis. Yes, it's now very common in the industry for larger operations to use what's called a reverse osmosis device. You might have heard of desalination plants. Um they've come up in the news recently. Um it's the exact same, it's a special membrane. It's an organic membrane. It behaves very similar to what a shark skin is, in that it allows water to go through one way under pressure. And that's what we use. So we buy these membranes, they're round in diameter, about eight inches in diameter, about four feet tall. And then we run about 350 to 450 psi sap through the inside of the through the outside of the membrane. And what happens is the membrane only allows water to go through to the inside. So what you're left with is a higher concentration of sap on the outside. And the and the machines we use recirculate the sap through these membranes to get whatever level of concentration of sugars you want. So the end result is a concentrate, so it's a concentrated version of your sap, and then pure water. And I have two separate tanks, as all our old us uh users have. One collects the concentrate, which we then boil down later on, and then the other tank collects the permeate or the pure water. And we use that pure water after the arrow is finished to backwash it to recondition the membrane because it does suffer a bit, you know, when you run run all this sap through it. So we flush it at the end of the day, we we clean the membrane back out. Now, the the what concentration is the question. So it's it's now scientific proven fact that if you concentrate to about 11% from normally 11% sugar to what normally it is around anywhere from 1% sugar bricks to about 2.5 to 2.75% sugar bricks, which you normally get in SAP directly from the tree, it goes down as the season progresses. And we can concentrate that to about 11%, and then I run it through my evaporator, and there's absolutely no uh change in flavors whatsoever. Um, you know, because the flavor from SAP comes from two from two main sources. There's the the caramelization of the heat within the evaporator, and then there's also the second process called the mailard reaction, where um the heat uh breaks down the amino acids from the sugars that gives you um your for your full robust flavor. So there's the caramelization and mailard reaction. Now we run to 11% uh from usually general 2% bricks to 11 to 11% bricks, percent sugar, and then we boil it down, there's no flavor shift whatsoever. Right. Um those two processes are not interrupted. The problem though is when you run an RO much higher than that, let's say you're going to some of these much larger bushes, um, they might go all the way up to 30 to 40 percent um bricks or percent sugar. So it's it's now becomes a very sweet, thick liquid. And then they run them through special evaporators that are predominantly flat pans. So generally an evaporator would be two-thirds uh flue pan, where you do the bulk of your boiling. It's basically a large 10 to 12 inch corrugations in your flu pan to the maximum surface area. And then you move to the flat pans, which might be one-third evaporator. In these larger operations, when they're going concentrating to 30 to 40 percent, they need to get that caramelization in the syrup. So they're maybe half to two-thirds flat pan with a small flu pan to do some of the some of the more boiling. The problem is you don't get very much of what's called this mailed reaction, where it also adds to this caramelly rich flavor. So you find that those syrups, although they taste like really good maple syrup, they they just don't have that full robust flavor you would get when you're you're only running an RO from or you're running meat without RO up to maybe 11%.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. So these RO systems, then are they uh very expensive? Like it is something I I think to be honest, I've checked the prices, and for for my operation with 130, 150 taps, not worth the investment, I don't believe.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I'm I'm I love I love being a scientist a bit and I'll plug and play. So these when these RO machines are quite expensive. Uh the membrane alone can run you anywhere from five to seven thousand dollars just for the membrane itself. And these and these uh smaller units, you can get them for um a decent price um offhand anywhere between new units, anywhere between twelve to fifteen thousand dollars, somewhere around that. And I know that a lot of the producers I know uh the two main producers usually have specials in after syrup season's over, like in May, where you can they they they do discount this equipment for the next season to promote work through the the factories through the summer. But yeah, they're expensive. Um for smaller units, I've for smaller operations, let's say you're doing 300 taps. I know that if you go on the internet, there's a few people that have built uh reverse osmosis systems out of you know home units. And I've always teased myself, would I actually engineer something like that? And I haven't had the time to do that yet, but you never know. Um I think hobby, the number one um the number one thing you have why a lot of producers might tap a few trees the first year, like homeowners or small, maybe you're on three acres and you have 30, 40 trees, you can get yourself into trouble because boiling down all that's up is is is hard. It's a lot a lot of boiling. But if you have a small little unit where you can concentrate uh 10 or 11 percent, you take out four times the water. Guess what? Boiling now is enjoyable. Yeah. Because you're no longer you're no longer boiling for 10 hours, you're no boiling for two hours, right?

RO Cost And DIY Possibilities

SPEAKER_04

Well, actually, uh Jeff, I spoke to the uh engineers in in Whirlpool, uh the company Whirlpool in California, uh, because we tried to talk to the people here about using the RO's systems for uh maple syrup productions, and nobody knew. Well, I finally uh tracked somebody down and said, absolutely, yeah. You could uh configure the small units, which are only a few hundred dollars at uh your your local, you know, your hardware stores, um, that could be essentially work, but they need to be done properly, like with somebody with some expertise like yourself.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they need to so um you need to start with uh the actual cartridge filters themselves. I mean the membranes are no different than the membrane we use. It's the same organic style membrane. It's the the the home purification units run at far too low a pressure to make it worthwhile. So um you know you could build one that run it around at 150 to 200 psi, but at that point in time you're having to build stainless steel, properly constructed container for your membrane, and you need to have a high pressure pump. But that's it. Everything else is pretty much the same on a regular home unit, right? Right. It's the same recirculate, and you have to build a recirculation system because you're not interested in the water, you're interested in the concentrate, right? So we have to do a bit of a recirculation to it. But yeah, it's more than you can definitely engineer this.

Cloudy Sap Stringy Sap Bacteria

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So uh Jeff, you mentioned about the Yellow SAP, and one of the other questions you or the responses when I asked you about Yellow SAP was about cloudy sap and stringy sap. Maybe you can kind of elaborate on those a bit so our listeners can uh get some details.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so um later on in the season, um when the temperatures start to get a little bit warmer, um, you start to get what's called cloudy sap. There's nothing wrong at all with cloudy sap, full on. You can boil it down, it'll be the same syrup you've got when you have clear sap. So it's no indication that the season is coming to an end at all. Although you do get cloudy saps later in the season. Definitely boil it. It's still high grade. Even though there might be a couple uh little moths or insects in them, you just sort of flip that off.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And you can boil that down as long as you get to it pretty quickly. Generally, when you start getting cloudy sap, the weather's getting warmer, and that also means that uh sap can turn over. So sap does have bacteria in it.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And there's a specific type of bacteria that grows in sap that if it starts to overwhelm the sap, it converts the sap into long-chain sugar molecules and into proteins. And it and you stick if you were to take your finger and you stick it into sap that's gone stringy, it looks like goo. Yes. And it's it's amazing. So I've had it only happen to me once, and it was uh five years ago, and I will never let my sap sit in the tanks for more than 10 hours or eight hours anymore when the weather starts getting warm. Right. Because you can't boil it down. Um, when you boil it down, guess what? You get stringy syrup. You get syrup that literally looks like goo. Right. So um, so that the only thing is to keep things clean, um, sterilized. If if you are using aluminum buckets, you might use just a titch of Javex and a brush to wash them out, rinse them very well, and then move them back. Uh hydrogen peroxide is what I favor. Um, the reason why is you can't really use uh bleach with stainless, the two go together. So I will use um um I will use uh hydrogen peroxide uh to clean some things. Um but Javex, obviously, I like just use the mild Javex bleach to clean all surfaces because sugar can grow to mold pretty quickly. But yeah, so yeah, keep everything clean and as the season progresses forward. So if you're on pails, and you know, every you know, every evening once you empty them, just have a little bucket of uh of water that you just sort of uh knocked, just clean the buckets out with and and get knocked down the bacteria count a lot, and then you won't run into stringy sap as frequently.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

But it is sadness when you get that.

SPEAKER_04

So now early sap and late sap uh color-wise, so maybe you can just elaborate on that a bit.

SPEAKER_02

Again, that is the so the sap in the ground. Um, as I said, when the trees bank the sap, first of all, it's it's um it's a much more complex uh uh carbohydrate with some sugars that the t that the trees store. And through the winter time, as the ground starts to warm up, that breaks down into the sugars that we're familiar with. And um, as the trees, each tree could move uh hundreds of or thousands of liters of water up and down in a tree when it's really active through the season, um, it's pulling all of that water from the ground. And every time it gets cold at night, it pushes that uh pushes all that sap back into the ground. And every time it does that, it picks up more and more minerals and and uh other other properties of the soil into the sap. And as I said, as the season goes on, more of the sugars break down into what's called invert sugar. So all of these things together is what's coloring the sap from usually a beautiful bright green, clear green at the start of the season to more of the yellows and the cloudy saps later on in the season. Yeah. Okay, and that also gets you the different grades of syrup. So early on in the seasons, that's when you get the goldens and the ambers. And then later on the season, um, as we boil it down, we're starting to get into the darks and the very darks. And the very darks is basically a molasses. Right. Um, usually the last couple runs of the year.

SPEAKER_04

So uh when you talk about, because you mentioned bacteria quite a bit, um, when you boil your sap, does that kill the bacteria? Yes, absolutely. Okay, so boiling it will kill that.

SPEAKER_02

So you gotta get the heat to the sap. The RO will not actually, one thing you've got to realize if you are running ROs, it actually can't concentrates the bacteria. Oh, really? Yes. So that means concentrated SAP you have to get to even quicker. I mean, a lot of producers know that. Um, once you've run your RO, you've pretty much got your evaporator fired up and ready to go.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Simultaneously.

Sugar Bush Management And Organic Rules

SPEAKER_04

So we constantly mentioned about the uh the root system. Is there uh holding a lot of the the holding all the sap at some point? Is there ways to develop a better root system? Because you mentioned, and that was something as when I was minister, we talked about because I was in charge of all the forests. So a lot of the tap roots, it depends on the soil configuration, but with you with limestone, it causes your root system to spread out more, correct. Right, as opposed to going down. And so that that would probably increase the volume of roots that you have in your your maple trees.

SPEAKER_02

Correct.

SPEAKER_04

And so is there ways that people can better develop root systems to hold more sap, or would it matter? Doesn't matter uh the size of the root systems, it's only going to have a limited amount of sap, anyways.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that all comes down to maple forest management. Um, you know, there's I have some books that go back to the late 60s, early 70s, and I don't think any of that has really changed. If you want to promote healthier maple trees, um, you can manage your forest so that your maple trees are further spread apart. And by spreading the trees further apart, it makes them grow larger canopies. And the root system of a maple tree usually mirrors the canopy. Um not as deep though, but as broad. So the broader the bowl, the broader the the top of the tree that you have where all the branches are, the more robust the root system is. I can't do that with my bush, it's just too cold.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I just let my maple trees do what they want to do so they grow closer together. Usually um anywhere from uh 10 to 15 meters, believe it or not, 10 to 15 meters apart is what a lot of the higher yielding sugar bushes can can do. You know, if you're on sandy loam, like about 50 kilometers south of us, if you want to see a great bush, go to sandy flats. They have your classic sugar bush, you can see right through it, right? Oh, yeah. Whereas my bush, you don't have a hope at seeing through it because just because the way the maples grow where I'm at. But yeah, promoting further distance from the maple trees promotes larger root pools. Um, if you want to go organic, you're not allowed to fertilize your maple trees. Although there are some producers that will um test the soil. And as I said, maples like to be at a very um slightly acidic level, so they'll make sure that that exists throughout the forest to sort of promote uh accelerated maple growth and and higher sap yields.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so but again, I remain, even though I'm not registered organic, I use organic principles, so I don't fertilize my trees.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I had the uh president of the Ontario Organic Association on. And uh I was totally shocked. I thought there were strict guidelines that says you can't say organic unless it's certified. And according to the president, and if you listen to that podcast, it changed that uh quite a bit because there's no there's no guidelines that say you can or can't.

SPEAKER_02

Correct. Yeah. So if you I think the keywords are certified organic. Although I try to differentiate myself because I do know two producers right around me that my neighbor, for instance, is certified organic. And out of respect, I will say I use organic practices, but my syrup is naturally made. Yeah. And that's the way I promote it.

Birch Syrup Flavor And Economics

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So, Jeff, do you have many birch trees in your forest? Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_02

And I haven't tapped them in a few years. Right. But I should get to that again. I've got about uh 300 uh birch trees that are definitely tappable now. Um, they live on the fringes of the maple bush between where the cedars don't grow. So if cedars can't grow, I usually get uh uh birch trees.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, because they have birch syrup as well. But now for making maple syrup from maple sap is 40 to one.

SPEAKER_02

Correct.

SPEAKER_04

But birch syrup is considerably different, is it not?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, 70 to 80 to 1, depending on how much uh sugar your your and how mature your birch trees are. Right. And the the sap is definitely different. It's uh for me the the flavor profile gets a lot nuttier and almost on the bitter side. Yes. So it starts to break down, it starts to get the flavor notes of a very, very light molasses, which is fantastic for cooking. And yeah, so there's definitely an audience and uh for for consumers that want uh birch syrup. I might get back into it. Uh this year I need to do a lot of work in my bush. I really want to clean it up after the amount of damage in the last three years that needs to be parts that needs to be rebuilt, but maybe the next year after I might get a small uh I have a small evaporator and I might uh start uh boiling down some birch sap as well. It's the same time as maples.

SPEAKER_04

So Oh yeah, I always thought it was a little bit later. But uh uh yeah, it was hard to gauge that. I was told it was later, but that wasn't the case at all. About about a week or two.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. About a week or two, but not much.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. So and birch would uh because of the amount of sap you'd have to go through, it would probably be quite a bit more expensive, I would think.

SPEAKER_02

And it is, it is. It's uh anywhere from two to three times more expensive per liter than syrup is for sure.

SPEAKER_04

Simply because of the cost to produce it. Now, one last thing, uh Jeff, was that um I noticed that a lot of the labels have changed for uh maple syrup.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So they've got a lot more in uh lines on it with a lot more uh listing of percentage of ingredients in it. Are you familiar with that?

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Yeah, so umSPA, which regulates how we present syrup for sale legally, right? Um, we need to provide a nutrition label. So on every bottle of syrup we sell at the farmers markets where I sell to to end users, like people who are fans who come to the farm, I have to make sure that they have the two things they need to have, or three things they need to have a, or four, they need four things. First of all, is a grade label. So, and the grades are anywhere from golden to very dark, and that's grade, and they're all grade A, by the way. And then the second thing we need is uh you need to indicate that it's pure maple syrup and also the uh the name and location and address of your farm. Third, you need to have uh a small sticker usually on the bottom of the bottle that tells you the bottling date or batch number. I use bottling date because we bottle every week throughout the year, so it's easy to batch on that. And the fourth thing is uh you need to have um um uh to indicate that it is uh pure maple syrup.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Whether you're a genic or not.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I I noticed the uh the the label change. Uh uh I think that was this year, was it not? Or did it come out early before that?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, this so the the whole grade changes happened about 10 years ago. Right. And the requirement for the nutrition labels on the back of the bottle that happened about uh three to four years ago, four years ago through Omspy, yeah. But these are all relatively recent uh uh changes for sure. Yeah.

Where To Buy Wagner Maple Products

SPEAKER_04

Okay, Jeff. Well, how can our listeners uh pick up your product or where can they come and see you, or how do they find out more information about uh you know your your Wagner uh maple uh products?

SPEAKER_02

Well, first of all, you can get to us through Instagram and Facebook. Uh it's just Wagner Maple Maple Products, um and that'll get to us. The second thing is if you can find us at uh a few farmers markets in the Peterborough region, we go to the downtown Peterborough Farmers Market as well as the Lakefield Farmers Market on Thursdays. And so the Peterborough Markets on Wednesdays and Saturdays from 8 to 1. And I love it when people come by the farm. I've got a little story here where you can come by and purchase the syrup directly as well. Now we have syrup year-round, and I produce enough. And this past year we had darks right up until dark syrup right up until end of January when we ran out. But we still have some very dark from last year. Um, and our very darks are just um they're coveted by a very select few people, but we definitely do supply a couple chefs in the area, and there is a clique. I keep them the dark bottles under the table near the end of the season. You have to ask for it, but yeah, majority of the syrup we sell is for ambers throughout the year.

SPEAKER_04

So, Jeff, you mentioned these markets in uh Lakefield and Peterborough, whereabouts are they in? And you mentioned one time. What time do they both run at?

SPEAKER_02

So the Lakefield Farmers Market runs from uh Mother's Day all the way through to the end of October in uh right downtown Lakefield in the parking lot by the uh By the arena, by the ice hockey arena. And that goes from 9 till 1 every Thursday. And the Peterborough Downtown Farmers Market runs year-round. In the wintertime, from uh November all the way through to end of April, we are actually in the Peterborough Square. And in the summer, we move outdoors to the Quaker Foods Urban Park, where the ice drink is in the wintertime. And we run there from May till end of October, Wednesdays and Saturdays from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. You can find us there.

Closing Thanks And Listener Giveaway

SPEAKER_04

Well, very good. Thanks very much, Jeff. Very much appreciate uh all the information. And uh if anybody wants to come out and see me, as I mentioned, uh I'll be in uh at at the other Peterborough Markets on Saturday for the month of April. And that runs from uh basically, I say, 8 till 1230. Um a little bit different than that, but uh that's the best times to show up. And if you come and mention uh uh my chocolate labs named Gunner, I'll give you a free package of tea and fill out the form so that I can uh enter you in the contest as well. We're giving a bunch of that away. But Jeff, we really appreciate all your obviously have a lot of knowledge in this, which is great to hear. And I think our our listeners probably learned a lot as much as I did.

SPEAKER_02

For sure, yeah. Stay you have to always stay stay in the game, right? Always trying to tweak things and uh, you know, adapt. That's what all of us producers have to do, always adapting, right?

SPEAKER_04

Very good. Thanks very much, Jeff. Just a little something uh a lot more sugary out there under the canopy. Thanks, Jeff.

SPEAKER_02

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_04

Bye. Okay, bye.

SPEAKER_05

How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, Steve Nitzwicki, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, Diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people. Share their stories of our trials, tribulations, and inspirations. Learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.

SPEAKER_06

Meanwhile, we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass, and we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing job.

SPEAKER_01

My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that's might be for more fishing than it was punching.

SPEAKER_05

You so confidently you said, Hey Pat, have you ever eaten a drunk? Find diaries of a lodge owner now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.