Under the Canopy

Episode 142: Northern Ontario Spring Reality Check

• Outdoor Journal Radio Podcast Network • Episode 142

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Southern Ontario is cutting grass while northern Ontario is still buried under feet of snow and that isn’t just a fun weather story. It’s a real window into what it costs to live, work, and build a life under the canopy when your “driveway” is an unplowed bush road and spring breakup can decide whether you move equipment, harvest wood, or even worry about flooding.

I’m joined by Pierre for a wide-ranging catch-up that stays grounded in practical reality. We talk about record snowfall near Timmins, how mining exploration ramps up when gold prices rise, and why camp jobs and equipment work can make the north feel like its own microeconomy. We also compare housing prices, taxes, and the very different culture around permits and building, including why some people move north for the freedom as much as the affordability.

From there we get into the details that matter if you love the outdoors: ice out timing, dams getting opened to prepare for runoff, and what a huge snow year might mean for forest fires. We break down off-grid style heating with an outdoor wood boiler, the firewood math behind heating two homes, and what the forestry sector looks like when big mills dominate the fibre. You’ll also hear our take on small mills, community-based forestry, horse logging in sensitive areas, and keeping an eye on threats like spruce budworm.

If you like honest talk about northern Ontario living, mining towns, forestry, winter roads, and staying warm with wood heat, hit play. Subscribe, share the show with a friend who’d actually move north, and leave a review so more people can find us.

Podcast Network Introductions

SPEAKER_08

Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola. And I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, Ang and I'll be right here in your ears, bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm. Now what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing.

SPEAKER_01

I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors. From athletes.

SPEAKER_01

All the other guys would go golfing. Me and Garchomp Turk, and all the Russians would go fishing. The scientists. And now that we're reforesting or anything, it's the perfect transmission environment to line the feet.

SPEAKER_02

Chefs, if any game isn't cooked properly, marinated for you will taste it.

SPEAKER_08

And whoever else will pick up the phone. Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.

SPEAKER_07

Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Housekeeping And Listener Contest

Record Snow And Bush Roads

SPEAKER_06

As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Olette, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully, we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. I got to tell you a couple things. Now, our great fan in Halliburton, your daughter was going to get in touch with me about doing a podcast. What's happening with that? I know you're listening. Anyways, we'll see you at the Halliburton market the when is that the Tuesday before the May 2-4 weekend, we call it here in Canada. And I'll probably see you there then, and we can straighten that up then. But in the meantime, if she reaches out to me, we can work on getting that done. Not only that, I got to tell listeners too. I was totally shocked. Now, by the time this goes to air, um, it'll be a couple of weeks now, uh, the amount of people that started to come out for the uh contest, for the um to get a free bag of uh Chagate. And one person drove down from North Bay to Peterborough, and uh they mention a gunner's name, who's doing great by the way, and of course, uh, you know, my son's dog that's moved in, uh Bell, which is a uh Doberman, and the cat there, and his poor gunner's just kind of like what's going on here. But, anyways, it was great to have them come down from North Bay. Really appreciate that. And I hope I don't put you to sleep. It's kind of an inside joke because he he likes to listen to our podcast to help put him to sleep, just to clear his mind, which we really appreciate. But I didn't get your name and number. I forgot to get you to fill out the form. So reach out to me and we'll put you in in the contest still. If you uh uh reach out to me and give me your name and number and email and stuff like that, we can do that. But you know, things are happening down in southern Ontario now, uh, all moving along, and but things aren't quite the same in northern Ontario. So I brought a guest that we bring on uh, oh, I don't know, once or twice a year. And we got Pierre back. Welcome back to the podcast, Pierre.

SPEAKER_04

Thanks, Jerry.

SPEAKER_06

Now, uh we're you're down here in sunny sunny southern Ontario, aren't you?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I came down to Oshawa to visit uh my sister, and uh quite a difference. Uh we left home with uh I couldn't work because it was too much snow, and I'm down here and the grass is green. So I don't know what to say about that, Jerry.

SPEAKER_06

Oh we've already I I gotta tell you, the the leaf bags got out. Uh Garrett and his wife Brittany, congratulations again. They raked the lawns and got the leaf bags out at the house. And and I've already seen quite a few neighbors who've already cut their grass already. Like, what the heck's with that? But you've got how much snow up there?

SPEAKER_04

Well, about four, I'd say, well, five days ago now, I tried to get to the property, which is about three kilometers Bush Road, and I was trying to get there with my Bombardier Bombi, if anybody knows what that is. It's a little track piece of equipment that's made to go through the snow, and it wouldn't go through the snow. So there was about, at that time, about probably 35 inches of uh soft snow in the middle of a road.

SPEAKER_09

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So um we're still probably right now a couple feet of snow in the bush, maybe more, maybe 30 inches. So I was gonna go get some wood for the mill, and the skidder won't go through the snow. So I'm like, uh, I gotta get out of here. And so we took a chance to come down here and visit with Natalie and uh let things calm down a little bit, and then we'll head home.

SPEAKER_06

So, so uh a lot of our friends out there, like the ones uh probably in Halliburton and in North Bay, would know. But when you say a bush road, what does a bush road mean to the the people that uh um have not not familiar with with camp and some of the stuff up in northern Ontario? What's a bush road?

SPEAKER_04

It's it's kind of our driveway, but it's a it's a gravel road that's not that doesn't have any upkeep on it, so it's never been plowed all year. Actually, this one was plowed at Christmas time, uh, but we got that huge storm at Christmas, which was almost a meter of snow. And I think that was the big switch this year, is usually we get, you know, six-inch storm, eight-inch storm, maybe a foot. But this year we were getting storms almost like a meter at a time.

SPEAKER_06

In one snowfall.

SPEAKER_04

In one snowfall. At Christmas, I think we got like uh 24 inches of snow, 26 inches of snow in one in one fall. And there had already been a storm in November. So it got to be a little intense. We were doing um diamond drill trails and sonic trails for three months.

SPEAKER_06

So, what does that mean, a diamond drill and a sonic trail?

SPEAKER_04

These are exploration drills for the mining companies. So um, a lot of the swamps and stuff we were going through and packing the snow down so that the swamps would freeze. And uh we had we had to use three pieces of equipment. Usually we get away with one, but this year we had uh a small dozer to pack the snow to freeze it, a bigger dozer to take the snow off after it froze, and then an excavator to also uh remove the snow because it they the dozers would push it to the side, but after a while you just couldn't push it to the sides, it was just too much snow.

SPEAKER_06

Well, I know when when Garrett and I came back from uh as I mentioned before, from brought him back from Calgary, did that marathon drive, we hit Wawa, and there was no sides of the highway. And it was white out white out conditions, Pierre, a Wawa. And if if you broke down, you were broken down on the road, you couldn't pull over to the shoulder because there was no shoulder.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, they just like everybody, it was just too much snow, like there was no room to put it. It's you know. So T Timmons was in a pickle for a while from the Christmas storm, and they got that cleared up almost, and then we got another storm, so it was right back, you know, like most of the streets you had to pull over into a driveway to let the car go by. Like the car if you had oncoming, you know. So and this went on for like a couple months.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So there was no room to for two-way traffic on most of the side roads in town.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So it was a little bit.

SPEAKER_06

So I can remember the first time I went to I the first time I was ever in Timmins would be the late 60s. And the main roads there, the the main streets, were all still gravel roads at the time.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_06

Now Timmins is a mining town, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's booming right now.

SPEAKER_06

Okay, so what uh maybe you can explain better. What would be the difference with a mining town and a regular town? How does it differ?

SPEAKER_04

Uh well, right now we're kind of in a little microeconomy because of all the work. I mean, there's just so much exploration with uh d drills and uh and uh so many smaller mines that really did you know didn't function very well at gold at lower price prices. Now that the gold is way up, a lot of these uh sites are being explored, and some of them are even being mined. So they're they're kind of running out of guys to run equipment. There's job fairs, there's all all kinds of stuff. Like they're looking for guys that can run a shovel, like an excavator, loaders, welders, all kinds of stuff. So um the houses are still decently priced.

SPEAKER_06

What's decently priced compared to down here? So what's the price?

SPEAKER_04

Probably like you get a decent house for$350,000,$400,000.

SPEAKER_06

Really?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I mean, of course, there's still a half million dollar houses, but they're kind of rare. And then you got all the little outlying towns, you know, like our little town, uh smaller towns. You can still buy houses for$200,000,$150,000.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

You know, which is like I was telling you about the ambulance driver, I think.

SPEAKER_06

No, you didn't tell me. What about the ambulance driver?

SPEAKER_04

Well, see, a lady um came up. We have an ambulance service in our town, and um, she was from Southern Ontario, a wife, um, a husband, two kids, two kids. So she ended up getting posted in our town, and she started looking around, and she's you know, there were a few houses for sale. She's like, Why wouldn't I move here? She bought the nicest house in town for like 160 grand.

SPEAKER_05

Oh.

SPEAKER_04

And uh now her husband doesn't have to work, you know, and her kids are like 15, 17, so they're almost ready to leave. And uh she said, like, I'll never be able to afford this this lifestyle down south. So they ended up moving to our little town, and you know, they like the outdoors and stuff, and the city's not that far away, it's only an hour away.

SPEAKER_06

So a lot of the listeners would like, okay, so I go to this little town. What do I do for a job up there? I think there's lots of work up there if if you want to work.

SPEAKER_04

If you want to work, there's a lot of what's changing too is these um these mining jobs, a lot of them are camp jobs. So you do seven days on, seven days off.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Or two weeks on and two weeks off. So you end up working like about 23 weeks a year, 24 weeks a year, and you're making, you know, big bucks, like especially if your costs, your living cost is down. Like our taxes are like twelve, fifteen hundred bucks a year.

SPEAKER_06

What do you mean your taxes? It's you get more than just water. That's water, and what else?

SPEAKER_04

Lights, uh, fire, everything into one pot.

SPEAKER_06

For twelve, fifteen hundred dollars a year.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I mean, we of course we don't have a mall right in our little town. But you know, it's only fun to go to the mall if you don't go, Jerry.

SPEAKER_06

That's yeah, uh a lot of people don't realize and they think because I was just talking with Hilda over at Oshawa Plants, and one of her kids moved up to Kirkland Lake, up into an unorganized part up there, and she was saying the same thing. Like they built a house and they had no building inspectors, no permits, nothing down here. Where I talked to, and I I I I should see about maybe I got a uh builder down here, and his son was telling me during COVID, they built three double units. Each of those double units, I think it was 52,000 in permit fees. Right. Okay. You know what those fees are now, Pierre, for those same buildings?

SPEAKER_04

No idea, Jerry.

SPEAKER_06

Between 140 and 150,000 per unit. Right. Wow. And guess who ends up paying that?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, the people who buy the places, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

You know, it it's just the cost of building is just so expensive.

SPEAKER_04

No, there's still, I mean, we still have homes for sale, like, you know, fix or upper will be 80 grand, 90 grand.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Depends what your standards are and what you're willing to put up with and all that kind of stuff, right? So I mean I just like the freedom. You know, you want to have chickens in your yard, you have chickens in your yard. You want to add on a shed, you add on a shed, you know. You know. Of course you want to follow the building code, you don't want everything to fall down, but of course. At least you can do what you want, you know, just still have a bit of freedom.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's work up there, and uh of those that love the outdoors, there's lots of opportunities to do a lot of different things, right?

SPEAKER_04

Right. Oh, yeah, lots.

SPEAKER_06

So there's lots of lots of mining work and lots of exploration. So did they get in and do drilling at the places you were at?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, there was a company there, I won't say the name, but um they had two sonic drills, which is like a surface drill. So it'll go down to the bedrock, and then they drill about 10 feet into the bedrock. And there's a layer, like if you're drilling through clay, there'll be a layer of what they call till there, which is like gravel. And they'll they'll um they'll take the till and they'll send it away and get it assayed and for the content, you know, see if there's gold in there. And then they had a glacial expert analyzing this stuff.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So if if there's gold in the till, well, they can kind of know which way the glaciers brought that that till there, and then they can pinpoint where to diamond drill a lot more accurately.

SPEAKER_05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

So it saves them a lot of work. We did about uh, I think we did over 80 sonic holes. Oh we did almost a hundred kilometers of of trail. So, I mean, it was between the storms and and and the ground never froze this this year because of the snow.

SPEAKER_06

It never froze.

SPEAKER_04

No, I was in uh in the bush all winter, and uh usually you know you go to push on a tree or something, if it's frozen the ground, it'll break. But uh no, uh none of the none of the soil froze where we were. Right? So we had to pack the snow and then let it freeze and yada yada.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I remember the one time we were up there with um uh Diane, Doug Bullock, and my dad were up at the camp. Um and uh Philip was out playing on the skitter, and he was like 10 years old, 11 years old at the time.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and he was out pushing over trees and stuff like that just for fun.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

You know, and Christine was like, Oh, we had some oil stuff. Did you do this? Did you oh yeah, I did that, okay. And it was just like, you know, here a 10-year-old, 11-year-old kid driving a a uh a tire a machine with tires taller than us.

Mennonite Communities And Fast Barn Builds

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. No, it's it was great. Yeah, yeah. Well, the Mennonites in the Matheson area where we were, there's like, I think there was over a hundred Mennonite families that have moved up up there now.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, Sunday is like we're on Highway 11, and there's like 20 horse and buggies going down Highway 11. You know, and people on bicycles and because they don't have cars.

SPEAKER_06

So Right. Well, yeah, with the Chag, I used to have one Mennonite that used to retail it in his his farm market store.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_06

And he was out near up Lindsay Way.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_06

And he was just saying, you know something? He says, I'm sick and tired of all the permits and everything else. And he he they packed up and moved to Michigan.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_06

And he was telling me, he said, his name's Norman. So Norman was telling me, he says, Listen, he said, here I had to go through permits and get everything else done and to put up a barn. And down in Michigan, I went to go to put up a barn, and the guy says, Where do you want to put it? I said, Well, I'd like to put it over there. He says, Oh, yeah, yeah. He said, might be better off doing it over here, and here's the reason why. Um, but uh and Norman's like, okay, so how much is my permit? It was like$25,$50, where it was like thousands of dollars to do the same thing here in Ontario.

SPEAKER_04

Right. No, it's crazy, it's it's it's nuts. Yeah, they're they're putting up barns and they're tiling all the fields up there, which you know allows them a little more time to work the fields. So I mean you drive by, it's just crazy that what they've done in the last, you know, they've only been there maybe five to eight years, maybe ten, ten years at the most. And it's they're they're they've bought the slaughterhouse, they have a hardware store, they have a farmers market. Uh you know, so they're they're really moving forward. So they all have a side gig, like they all raise cattle or sheep or goats, and then they have a side gig, you know.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So they either do you know a lot of a lot of building stuff, uh furniture, never ends, a lot of heavy equipment.

SPEAKER_06

They they came down and they did uh Phillips shop, did they not? Yes, they did Philip Shop, it took them a week. A week. And how many people came down and how big is his shop so people get a system?

SPEAKER_04

Maybe eight guys, and they brought the families. Right. Because we had to go get them.

SPEAKER_05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Uh, because they don't drive, of course. And then um, so the shop I think is 80 by 120. So we had the footing in, so they came in, put the walls up, uh, did all the tin work, put the garage doors in, all the windows in, and they poured the floor. And they were done in a week. So the people in town were flipping out. They'd they'd leave to go to work and you know, at eight in the morning or seven in the morning, they come back at night and all the walls were framed.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

They were like, what the heck? You know, I watched them put the roof on, the tin on the roof.

SPEAKER_05

Yep.

SPEAKER_04

It it took them an hour to do the one side of the roof.

SPEAKER_06

And it's 80 by 120.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I'm like, what the heck? Like they had all the manpower and the you know, the funny part was, Jerry, what? So they had no phone, right? Right. They don't have cell phones. So the the Mennonites had to have a meeting. The the the lead guy was like, Well, I gotta get in touch. So they were, you know, can we borrow the phone? So they had a meeting whether they could have a cell phone or not. And uh what they came up with is that, yeah, you can have a cell phone because Philip had a spare one, as long as it's plugged into the wall. Like as long as it's is the you know, it's plugged into the charger on the wall. So they wasn't allowed to carry it around.

SPEAKER_06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it was kind of neat, you know.

SPEAKER_06

But each of them, each one of these Mennonites had a specific job when they were doing it, right?

SPEAKER_04

They all had a specific job, but they could also like switch jobs, like you know, like if you weren't stuck if you were done your job, you could go do something something else, you know.

SPEAKER_05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

But there was a couple older guys that would mark all the wood, they'd go around, mark all the wood, uh, you know, check the lumber out. Yeah. Make sure it was good, you know, that kind of stuff, and then just went up like it was crazy.

SPEAKER_06

Right. And you were supplying them with cedar, were you not cut cedar for a lot of stuff?

SPEAKER_04

We did some lot, yeah. We we harvested a bunch. Uh me, Nikki, maybe four years ago, three years ago, we sent him like seven truckloads that we cut by hand, and so they they bought that. Right. But uh they they they seem to find logs and they seem to he's upgraded his mill now. He's got a much bigger mill, the guy we sold the logs to.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so he needs a little more wood, so I'm not supplying him with wood anymore. We just do our own thing.

SPEAKER_05

So Right. Right.

Ice Out Flood Risk And Gardens

SPEAKER_04

A little too uh he needs a little bit too too much wood for what we have.

SPEAKER_06

So well, you know, you're talking about the amount of snow up there. I know we were at our camp Sunday last. We uh took a load in because we had to wait until actually it was just this week, which would be like basically the last week of April kind of thing. And um there there was still snow in the driveway and still snow, a bit of snow in the bush. Not really, but you can see where the snow slid off the roof at the camp. And uh there must have been quite a load because it was still like on the one side, the dark side, not the sunny side. There was so probably I don't know, two feet thick, uh snow, maybe a little bit more than that. But um when we first got there, the lake was frozen over.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_06

And so Diane went down and took a picture of it. And when we were leaving, I turned around and said, Hey, take a look out there. What? I said, Look at the lake. What? I said, Where's the ice? Yeah, the ice was all gone in front of our place. We were right there at ice out. Huh? Cool. So it it'll be a while for you before you get ice out, won't it?

SPEAKER_04

Well, usually the average is like the 10th of May.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So I don't know what's gonna happen this year. Uh uh like uh I've been home in a few days, but it was pretty white when I left and there was still a lot of ice. So I don't know if it can flood with ice on the lake. That's one thing I don't know. Like, does the ice have Be off the lake. Like I don't know if we're gonna flood or not. It depends on the weather and the rain, but there's lots of potential there for this year. People are worried about it. They've opened up all the dams on the on the on on the big lakes.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

To get the lakes down in case, you know, we do get a big runoff and then the dams, you know, they might go over the dams. So they want to prep everything. So yeah, the M and R said it's the most snow they've seen since 64.

SPEAKER_06

Since 1964.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and they and they're not even sure if we got more than 64. So it's it's since they've been keeping the records 47 years or something there.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So I mean 64 is more than 47 years because I was born, you know, doing the math, but yeah, they've been keeping records. They're just not, they don't know if they're, you know, they think we might have got more snow than even back then.

SPEAKER_06

So for those that don't know, MR is Ministry of Natural Resources. Right. Yeah, so and quite so what do you think that's going to mean to potential for forest fires this year, Pierre?

SPEAKER_04

No clue, Jerry. It depends how how it goes. I mean, we we there was fires out west last year, like Thunder Bay and West, but we were really quiet in our little zone. It seemed like it rained every second night or third night, or you know, we just get the perfect amount of rain.

SPEAKER_05

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So we never really got big fires. So it was kind of nice. I hope the same thing happens again this year.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_04

I think we watered the garden like five times all last summer.

SPEAKER_06

So how big's the garden? What do you got? What do you what did you have last year and what are you gonna plant this year?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, the same old thing, uh potatoes and carrots, and Christine always has squash and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

But uh, yeah, we had corn too. Yeah. Usually we everybody says you can't grow corn up north, but we ate corn for almost three three weeks until the blackbird showed up and ate it all. But anyway.

SPEAKER_02

Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike Podcast. Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous fish of 10,000 casts.

SPEAKER_03

The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing, it's about creating a tight-knit community of passionate anglers who share the same love for the sport. Through laughter, through camaraderie, and an unwavering spirit of adventure, this podcast will bring people together. Subscribe now and never miss a moment of our angling adventures. Tight lines, everyone. Find Ugly Pike now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_06

And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Hi, it's Jerry from Chaga Health and Wellness. We're here in Lindsay with Tula, who's actually from Finland and uses Chaga. Tula, you've had some good experiences with Chaga. Can you just tell us what that experience is?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I got sick with fibra, and uh one weekend my husband came here alone. I was home, and uh he brought your uh your leaflet, right? And I read it, and I said, next weekend when we go to the market, we're gonna buy some. And so we started putting it in our morning smoothie. Right, and uh among a few other things that I was doing because of that, the chaka has been the steady one. Right, I would not want to live without it. Oh, good, yeah. So it's been working for me. Very good.

SPEAKER_06

Lots of ways, and you had uh some good luck with blood pressure as well.

SPEAKER_00

Alright, yeah, you thanks for remembering that. That's uh yeah, I had a little bit of high elevated blood pressure, and within the two weeks of starting that every day, every morning, uh it went to normal.

SPEAKER_06

And you think the chaga was the reason why?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I didn't do anything else in that time free.

SPEAKER_06

And so how much chaga did you have and how did you have it?

SPEAKER_00

Well, we just put that powder in the smoothie.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And uh it's about tablespoon. Yeah. No, it's less than a tablespoon to speak of us. Yeah. So you don't need that much.

SPEAKER_06

Right. About a teaspoon, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Very good. Well, thanks for very much for sharing that. We really appreciate that and wish you all the best with the Chaga. Oh, you're from Finland as well. And Chaga's pretty popular in Finland, is it not?

SPEAKER_00

I think it probably is because there's some professors in a university that uh that start teaching it and uh talking about it, and of course it's big in Russia.

SPEAKER_05

Right?

SPEAKER_00

Because that's where you know the northern wood stuff came comes from. Yep, yeah, and of course, Finland has lots of perfect trees.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

Wiener Dog Winter Survival

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and it's the only mushroom that you can't forage in Finland. Very good. Well, thanks very much for sharing that. Okay, have a great day. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code Canopy, C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode. So, how did LD uh or Schneider uh survive the winter with it being that deep?

SPEAKER_04

Well, he was leaving more than four tracks in the snow, I can say that.

SPEAKER_06

So, first of all, maybe you should explain to the listeners who L what LD stands for or Snyder or what do you think?

SPEAKER_04

Little dog. He's a little wiener dog, so I ended up taking him to work quite a bit. He would sit in the piece of equipment and uh he'd run out, you know. When the snow was a bit hard, he could float on top a bit because he only weighs 12 pounds. But uh when the snow got too deep there, he just he'd leave a little tunnel in the snow, and he after a while he just gave up. He's like, No, I can't do this, you know. So but he was pretty tough because he got those little being a dash hound, those bigger feet, you know. I I thought he'd have cold feet, but he was pretty tough with his even at minus thirty thirty, he wouldn't sit there with his legs up in the air, you know.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

We put a little jacket on him, and he doesn't like those, but anyway, he toughed it out.

SPEAKER_06

So LD stands for little dog. LD, so we call him LD or Snyder is his name. And he's like I said, a wiener dog, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Miniature wiener wiener dog. So he's kind of happy now.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

He's back chasing squirrels again and never catches them, but I don't think that matters.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. So we don't hunt here all the time. We don't catch them either, Jerry.

SPEAKER_06

So yeah, so where did the snow kind of end and where did the the greenery start when you headed south from from uh where you live? Uh pretty much North Bay.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It really started to peter out around North Bay, and then you could still see like in the heavy bush, you could see a little bit a little bit of snow. But it seemed like it really started to uh like you could see a lot more of of of of the earth once we hit North Bay and then a bit south.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Which I thought there'd be a lot more snow there because they got pelted with snow too. But I guess it doesn't take a whole lot more heat, you know.

SPEAKER_06

I guess I don't know. But it sounds like yeah. And and and LD was uh certainly didn't mind, like you mentioned, uh, minus 30 weather, which you had quite a bit of this year, didn't you?

SPEAKER_04

Uh yeah, not like not the big colds, like we had some cold nights, like you know, 34, 33, but not 10 days in a row, you know.

SPEAKER_05

Oh okay.

SPEAKER_04

It'd be n it'd be cold for a couple nights and then oh, minus 22, you know.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So we didn't have too much trouble with the uh equipment and stuff.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

Outdoor Boiler Heating Explained

SPEAKER_04

A couple of times there I was fighting it, but other than that, it was usually it was pretty good.

SPEAKER_06

So do you have any trouble heating the house with the uh the unit you're using? You're still using the outdoor wood heater?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, the boiler, no, the bo the house. Well, we had a gang at Christmas, all the families showed up, so um no, the boiler turned out really good. Well, Philip put that new boiler in and uh with a thermostat on it with a fan on it, which I wasn't too sure I would like it or not, but yeah, it turned out really great.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Because your water always stays hot, right?

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So the water is always between 170 and 180.

SPEAKER_06

So essentially what it is is uh it's kind of a uh a boiler in a little kind of shed out in the yard, just to kind of describe it so people understand, so they can visualize what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Well, it's a boiler out in like so what it does is it saves you're bringing wood in the house, and then what you do is heat the water and it pumps the water into the homes, and then you have a a a system there, either a rad or um in in-floor heat, and it circulates the water in the house, and then the water comes in the house. If it comes in at 170, it probably goes back out at 155, 160, and then it the stove will heat it back up again, so you continuously have hot water to heat your home. Right. So right now we're heating two homes with that, two fairly big homes.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um you mean fairly big.

SPEAKER_06

How big how many bedrooms you got in your place, Pierre? Just seven. Okay. Seven bedrooms in uh but you built it a log home, right? Right.

SPEAKER_04

It's it's a three-story log house. Yeah. And Phillips is a pretty big house, probably 2,500 square feet.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And he's 225 feet away.

unknown

Oh.

SPEAKER_04

So we pumped the water there and then pumped the water to our house. So it turns out good. Like we can fill the stove at night, you know, it's eight, nine o'clock at night, and we still got lots of fire in the morning.

SPEAKER_06

So, what what kind of wood are you putting in it? Uh, what kind of wood you get?

SPEAKER_04

Great wood. I I try to get I try to dry the wood out, but we ran out of dry wood because I didn't have time. And uh, I was putting green birch in there, which as long as you fed it when it wasn't too low, it was fine, you know. Right. They don't recommend that, but they don't recommend a lot of things. So anyway.

SPEAKER_06

But it worked for you still. But birch is about the hardest wood that you get?

SPEAKER_04

Uh up there, yeah, we don't get maple. And if we do, it's a soft maple.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's it's not worth chasing around.

SPEAKER_06

So are you burning white or yellow birch?

SPEAKER_04

Uh all white.

SPEAKER_06

Really?

SPEAKER_04

No, not much yellow? Well, there's some yellow, but it's not don't access it too much. And uh it's marked tree now up north.

SPEAKER_06

What does that mean? So people uh know what it means.

SPEAKER_04

Well, that uh somebody has to go through and mark the stand before you har har harvest the trees. Right. I mean you can bump into the odd one and you know pick it up, but if it's if it's a classified hardwood yellow birch stand, you you have to get it uh you have to get a tree marker in to mark the trees.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So we don't bother with that anymore.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So we just harvest. I mean, they're a lot of the lumber people, like the bigger mills, when they harvest stands, they'll hit white birch and they'll just cut it and put it to the side, you know. Okay, yeah. Because it's in the way. So we try to pick up a lot of that stuff.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, so they're not using the white perch?

SPEAKER_04

Well, they'll ship it for wafer board, like to Grant. Well, it's not Grant anymore, but uh Georgia Pacific.

SPEAKER_06

Where does that how far away do they have to ship that?

SPEAKER_04

Uh about three hours. So it's in Earlton, which is a little bit uh Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

West of him is about maybe a couple hours, not west, but uh east.

SPEAKER_06

Right. Well, didn't we have issues when we were minister with Earlton there and uh the ADM, Assistant Deputy Minister, uh allowed them to transfer the fiber out of Earlton to the other mill?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, there was always issues there. That's when Grant owned it.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah. So yeah, and then he uh I don't know, things went south, I think, a little bit. I heard somebody bought his mansion though, and they're using it as a movie set. I don't know if that's true or not.

SPEAKER_06

Really? Where about oh that's out that way, isn't it? By the in Tri-Cities, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, he had started a big mansion on a lake.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And never got it done. I think it was 35,000 square feet.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Anyway.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So anyway.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Who knows, Jerry?

SPEAKER_06

Oh, yeah, I remember having uh going nose to nose with all those big wigs at a big forestry ministry uh meeting whenever.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, a lot of them aren't even there anymore, jeepers, eh?

SPEAKER_06

Well, yeah, and they were whining and complaining that the province had to step up. And and I said, Listen, the reason or we'll move to uh New Brunswick, they were saying I said, Well, the reason you're in Ontario is is you can make money here. And believe me, when you're not making money here, you'll go somewhere else and make it.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_06

So don't be coming to me whining and bitching and complaining that we're not playing our share, because they wanted it's all stumpage rates and stuff like that. So and they were like, Oh, no minister ever talks to us like that. What's the price?

SPEAKER_04

I mean, the M and R was doing well during COVID as well, but when the lumber prices went crazy because the crown dues are adjusted to the to the lumber prices, right?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I think the government was doing quite well in the forestry sector. I mean, there was there was a what 110 truckloads of wood going into that wafer board plant per day. And the I think the crown dues for a while on that wood was like$35 a meter. So they were they were making like$1,400,$1,500 a truckload going to the government.

SPEAKER_05

Really?

SPEAKER_04

At 110 loads a day, and that was just one mil. That's I wonder if the government should invest more in their forestry. What do you think, Jerry?

SPEAKER_06

Well, I think I I think they have to look at new markets because the United States has dried up just a wheat touch right now, but I don't know how much is crossing or not crossing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's hard to say. I don't know. And uh I think they're looking at the your the European markets, which will have to um use different standards to measure our wood. We'll have to go with a metric standard instead of a standard standard, like instead of we're still in inches, right?

SPEAKER_05

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I don't know, a two by four won't be a two by four anymore. It'll be uh whatever, a four by nine, or who the hell knows? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Well, I I know a lot of the Chinese uh afterwards when I was uh in opposition, I met with uh some of the groups there. Well, I approached you about seeing if you could supply some of the orders they wanted, but no, they were too large an order, if you recall.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Yeah, you got to fill a ship.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. And the problem with that was it was um it was extremely difficult for Ontario to compete with British Columbia and Alberta because they were so close to the shipping to be able to ship to China.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_06

That the cost for Ontario to get it to those ports put us out of the game. But you know, all the guys that I spoke to, all the lumber companies at that time, uh, were like, even if they get it in British Columbia, that'll open up markets for us because instead of BC competing with us in our markets here, they'll be shipping there, and that frees it up for us, which is kind of a snowball effect, shall we say.

SPEAKER_04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Cool.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. So how much wood would you actually go through in this uh outdoor stove that you're using?

SPEAKER_04

Uh probably a couple tiers, Jerry. A couple of what? Well, maybe a couple tiers of wood, like you know, a logging truck.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Most of them haul three tiers of wood, like three, you know. So this year we probably went through two two tiers.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

But that's the hoot that's to heat two large homes. So most people in northern Ontario burn it, like a tier of wood. Right. To heat a regular house, you know.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. So most of the people in Northern Ontario use wood to heat their houses, do they not?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, a lot of them. And now who knows what's gonna happen with all this gas and L and G and pro propane. So uh a lot of people aren't too keen to get rid of their wood, their wood stoves.

SPEAKER_06

Well, yeah, you've got such a huge supply of it up there, it just doesn't make sense not to burn it.

SPEAKER_04

Uh no, it's totally.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and and I've got to tell you, that wood insert uh that I put in the fireplace, it I I I've I paid ten percent the cost of of what I used to pay to heat the house now uh with the wood.

SPEAKER_04

And and it's warmer in the house.

SPEAKER_06

And it's warmer, not only that, but uh it's like our buddy Doug used to say, you know, it's either split wood or join a uh a gym.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Yeah, we don't have to worry about that part.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. Lots of exercise doing wood all through the year. And and I already looking and um I see a number of trees down already that I'm gonna start to get ready for next year's supply here at uh so it'll be April May when I'm starting to fill the fill the my wood piles up.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Uh well that's my plan. I'm going home. I I'm doing bags of wood now, those one cord bags.

SPEAKER_06

So a a face cord of uh goes into a bag?

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And I use my little crane to lift that. And uh I I think I've got orders for about 60, 70 bags when I get home.

SPEAKER_06

Really?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So how much do you sell basically a bag for?

SPEAKER_04

Well, back home it doesn't sell for as much as down here. About$100 a cord. Okay. A face cord, you know.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, that's not too bad. But most of it is what kind of wood though?

SPEAKER_04

Mostly birch.

SPEAKER_06

And is it cut and split?

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. Yeah, that's not too bad. But I I you know, when we were out west, when I was picking up Garrett out west, I always used to check the the um that was one of the things I'd do is and I stopped in a little town, I picked up a newspaper in that town, if they had a a local paper, and I went to the want ads and I'd look and see the the cost of firewood that they were selling it for.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_06

You know, and some of them were like I they were getting for uh a bushcord of what they called it white poplar.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe that's birch, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06

No, no, it's you know the you remember those poplar trees that look like that look like birch, but they're actually poplar?

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_06

Like a trembling poplar or a whatever.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, a large tooth aspen. Right. Anyways, they're getting and this would be oh, so what do we had? So last one I checked that just shocked me was about uh so that would be so it would be 12 years ago, was$500 a pushcord for poplar.

SPEAKER_04

Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah, nobody even wants poplar where I'm from.

SPEAKER_06

So No, exactly.

SPEAKER_04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06

And that was the prized wood that they could get out that way.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

Horse Logging And Small Mill Future

SPEAKER_06

So I was thinking, wow, there might be there you go, Pierna. The mines the the wheels are turning already. What kind of transport truck can I go in? How much wood can I get on the back of it if I do it out Kenora way and then take it over?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. No, no. I'll stay small, Jerry. We need we need more small mills in the n in in the north. Well, these corporations holding, you know, all the baskets of of wood.

SPEAKER_06

Well, when now for those that don't know, Pierre was my when I was minister, Pierre did a great job. He handled the forestry file for the province. And one of the things that Pierre and I tried to do was exactly what you just said, you know, was bring the small guys back in with horse logging. Remember?

SPEAKER_04

Horse yeah, we just tried to set an example with that, and we got so much flack that Yeah. Yeah, we would still have to be in power to have it solved. Well 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_06

Well, yeah, but some of the stuff that we did, what was that mill at uh up uh Temis Tomiskamine Tomogamy Way?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, there was uh the red squirrel uh there was a big fight going on with Grant at the time. So we suggested uh with the native people actually that they put a community-based forestry system in. Yeah, that was 20 years ago, and it just happened last year.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I'm kind of think that you and I planted the seed for that. Yeah. But it sure took a long time for it to come out of the ground.

SPEAKER_06

So, but what happened, what happened with the community-based forest is essentially the community has a say in where the wood's going as opposed to the way it's normally done, which is the lumber company has the say.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you have a lot more input with a community-based forestry system. Though there's a lot more of them going out and PC because the people get together and you know make it work. But uh we definitely need a lot more of that in the north part of the province, at least at least down south here. You guys have a lot of private land. Yeah. So people have access to timber.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, a lot of the lumber mills don't really want us small guys around. Of course not. There's a few of them that do. I was dealing with uh the Shaplow Mill, which is The the forestry guy there was a farmer at one time, so right. I was trying to put together a license and uh he was he was backing me up on it. I just didn't bother because it's too much work. So every seminar should be coaching small guys, not uh trying to you know get them out of the game. Get them in the game.

SPEAKER_06

It's kind of like the the uh the Apple computers, right? They went to IBM and everybody said, nobody wants a a personal small computer. And same thing here, and I try to emphasize that in so many different situations. It's the same thing. With horse logging, you would have quite a few of the individuals working in the communities with their horses and supplying the the small communities in Northern Ontario to draw that lumber out at a reduced cost and minimum loads. And anyways, uh one of the things that we were doing was you know, the sensitive areas you don't take the big machineries in, but a horse. Nobody has any problems with a horse going in and taking out those logs that are going to fall over anyways.

Budworm Risks And Next Cut Plans

SPEAKER_04

Right. Well, like we do on our own private land, like right now, I use a small uh skitter, you know, and I take out just the larger trees that are actually I'm trying to get to an area now uh because the spruce bud bud worms in there. Oh it is I got about 10-15 percent of my big giant spruce trees are dying, so I want to get in there and just start picking at them slowly, you know. Leave the leave the s leave the small ones and harvest some of the larger trees.

SPEAKER_06

So the spruce budworm, um that's pretty can be pretty serious, can't it?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's it's a little bit north of us right now. It's it's kind of moving um south. Right. It's not they've hit the ball some pretty good in some areas.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So our property's not doing too bad, but we're trying to keep an eye on it and try to get in there. But uh I had this stupid job this winter, so I couldn't get in there, but yeah. Next winter, Jerry, always next year, Jerry.

Winter Roads And Changing Winters

SPEAKER_06

Oh so you get in for your winter wood. Now there's something, Pierre, and I don't think we've ever explained what's yeah, you can explain it better. Winter wood and summer wood. What's winter wood for for the mills?

SPEAKER_04

Well, winter wood is I call it winter wood, it's just accessing that part of our land base um with winter roads. Instead of spending a whole bunch of money on on building gravel roads, you can just freeze road, go in and harvest an area, then put you know, get back out before it thaws out.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

There's a great savings on the cost of of roads.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_04

You know.

SPEAKER_06

Oh yeah, so and that was some of the big stuff is a lot of the companies, you know, they had their their winter wood, as they called it, and they had to get it out, um, get the winter wood out before uh before the thaw, otherwise they were stuck with uh problems and try to get it out afterwards. But yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well, like in the forties and fifties, um a lot of the people that were in the forest back then. I mean, my grandfather was a blacksmith for Spruce Falls, and they all worked in the forest. And they said if you didn't have your winter roads froze by Christmas, you're pretty much done.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Well, there's no most w winters now, there's no way you can freeze winter roads before Christmas time.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

You know, so that environment's changed a bit. We had we had quite a time this year trying to freeze roads. You got them done, but it just took longer and and it was, you know, not as easy.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

You had to be on it a lot more than they used to.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So so what's next in the plan, Pierre? So you gotta get in and get some lumber out for your mill and mostly SPF, spruce pine fir, SPF?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'm just gonna, I've got a little area there. I'm gonna get some cedar out if my swamps uh are still hard enough. And I got some some bigger spruce in that spruce swamp, so I'm gonna do a modified cut in there. And then I'm gonna probably wait for my mill to open, which is inundated with snow right now.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So it'll probably be the 10th of May before I get that going.

SPEAKER_05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

I have some logs in the yard.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And uh I'll guess, like I said, some cedar, and I got some firewood to do, so I'll be busy when I get home. And if my little brother doesn't find me a job, which I hope he doesn't. So we'll see what happens, Jerry.

SPEAKER_06

Well, you're uh that's one thing for sure. You're always busy, and it's great to hear that and you know that was one thing that a lot of people say about living up north. Oh, what are you gonna do for work? If you want to work, there's lots of work up there. All you have to do is look for it, and you'll find it, won't you?

SPEAKER_04

Right. And Jerry, you might need a break with that uh that new baby in the house. I hear they cry. I'm not too sure.

SPEAKER_06

Well, we'll find out soon enough, I think, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. You'll be heating up bottles on the stove. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

All right, Pierre. Well, I appreciate the up there uh update. I hope you don't uh get any flooding, but if we hear about any flooding out your way, we'll certainly uh jump on it and and find out uh the details and hopefully it doesn't impact you too much.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, hopefully the last year we got quite a bit of water, but we didn't get that rain at that specific time. The water was right on the edge of the pavement.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_04

And then it and then it went down. So if we'd have got a heavy rain, it would have been special, you know. But uh I don't know, we'll see. It'll be a couple weeks. We'll keep in touch, Jerry.

SPEAKER_06

Okay, as always, Pierre, it's a pleasure. Great to hear from you and keep uh keep things going. And we're learning a lot more about what happens out there under the canopy. Hey, Pierre?

SPEAKER_04

That's good, Jerry. Yes, sir.

Farewell And More Podcast Plugs

SPEAKER_06

Okay. All right, bye for now. Bye. Okay.

SPEAKER_07

But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people. Share their stories of our trials, tribulations, and inspirations. Learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.

SPEAKER_08

Meanwhile, we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass. And we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing show.

SPEAKER_01

My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that might be more efficient than it was punchy.

SPEAKER_06

You so confidently you said, Hey Pat, have you ever eaten a drunk?

SPEAKER_07

Find diaries of a lodge owner now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.