Episode 144: You Can Help Save Black Ash By Collecting Seeds

We talk with Vince from the Invasive Species Centre about how emerald ash borer is driving black ash toward endangered status in Ontario and what it means for wetlands, forests, and people. We also share practical ways to prevent the spread of invasive species and how listeners can help map and preserve black ash through seed collection and citizen science. 
• Vince’s path from criminology to environmental field work 
• Why black ash is especially vulnerable in wetland habitats 
• How to identify black ash by leaves, buds, and branching 
• How emerald ash borer spreads and kills ash trees 
• What epicormic shoots can signal in stressed ash 
• How to join the Black Ash Community Action Network 
• How to use iNaturalist and the Ontario Black Ash Inventory 
• Clean drain dry for boats and watercraft 
• Why not moving firewood prevents pest spread 
• What the invasion curve shows about early action 
• Hammerhead worms, safe handling, and what not to do 
All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code CANOPY, C-A-N-O-P-Y. 

Transcript

Network Welcome And Show Preview

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola. And I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, Ang and I'll be right here in your ears, bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm. Now what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors.

SPEAKER_12 0:33

From athletes, all the other guys would go golfing. Me and Garchom Turk, and all the Russians would go fishing.

SPEAKER_11 0:41

And now that we're reforesting or anything, it's the perfect transmission environment to line the team.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

And whoever else will pick up the phone. Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.

SPEAKER_13 1:02

Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listener Updates And Tick Season

Power Steering Failure And Recall

Meet Vince From Invasive Species Centre

SPEAKER_09 1:15

As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Olette, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully, we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. As always, we want to thank our listeners. You know, really appreciate all the input. Keep mentioning, you know, we get uh people coming down from North Bay to see us from Hal Halliburton. And I'm still waiting from Halliburton to get that uh your daughter on the program to talk about uh what she's working with. But uh I'll probably see you in a couple of weeks, I expect, up at the Halliburton market when it starts up the Tuesday before the long weekend here in Ontario. And of course, uh updates on our our my best buddy Gunner, all's good there. You know, I get uh a little concerned with the flea and tick season. I always want to make sure because it drives me crazy to think that the possibility of him getting a tick with Lyme disease, and I give him what I I I reluctantly give him the uh the the stuff that they chew that puts a little poison in their system that kills them once they bite or latch on. But and I also wash Gunner with a flea and tick shampoo a couple times a month during this time of the year, hopefully just to keep them away. And uh usually when I get out and we're out and about and doing running, because it's uh like last week's show talking about leeks, wild leeks and stuff like that. We get out and do a lot of foraging now this time of year and certain parts of southern Ontario. A lot of ticks around it really bothers me. But uh I've tried a couple things and and there's um this uh permithrin that is uh you can pick it up at a number of different stores that spray your clothes with and it kills off ticks and stuff like that. And it was originally brought in and allowed in Canada for horses, but I I have friends uh we had uh John Bell, the president of the Ontario Sporting Dogs Association. He'd been using that for his dogs for years, very successfully, according to him. But uh anyways, um I'm gonna have to get out and go visit that naturopathic vet that we had on uh a while ago and get some ideas from him, and maybe we can pass those on once they come along. But I have to tell you that in the past week I'm driving along, coming back from um uh doing a Chaga event in Peterborough and coming down uh highway 35, 115, fine, and hit the 401, and all of a sudden, what the heck is this? A light comes on my vehicle and it says service power steering now, and it's yellow. And it's like, all right, that's weird, like okay. Um so I'm and you can feel it kind of stiffening up and a little bit hard to drive, so slow down to make sure that I'm not in a and make sure I'm over on the the basically the collector lane so that if I need to pull over. So I get home, shut the vehicle off, call up, uh check with my one mechanic, because sometimes he works. This was a Saturday, sometimes he works Saturdays. Check with Phil. No, Phil's not working that Saturday. So I check with Doug, another mechanic I use, and uh says, Bring it over, yeah, we'll have a look-see. So I take it over there, start the vehicle up, and it's now coming up service power steering now, but it's in red, and the thing is solid. It's like worse than old manual steering. Well, I get it over to Doug's, and Doug's like, you know, something. He says, uh, I've never seen this before. You're gonna have to either take it to Phil, the the worst first one I was checking with who wasn't working Saturdays, or take it to the dealer. Well, you know what it's like taking it to the dealer, full full price on everything there, and no brakes and no nothing. So anyway, so I get my son and then uh we take it. And it is like when you shut your vehicle off and the steering's locked, that's what it's like now. So we slowly creep it uh up to Phil's and leave it there. But now it's at the dealership, and of course, guess what? I checked and there was a recall for this very specific thing, but oh no. It doesn't tell you this when you're reading the recall notice that it's factory specific and mine wasn't producing the factory that has this problem. But of course, uh so I call their their head office for Canada Line only to find out that well, that's not included, but if you keep all your receipts and it's uh at a later date if it's included, we'll refund your money. So, like now I'm dealing with another four grand to put out for something that anyways, that's life moving on. But now we've got a special guest I'm bringing out from the Ontario Invasive Species Center, Vince.

SPEAKER_07 7:27

Welcome to the program, Vince. Hi, thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_09 7:32

Yeah, not a problem. I know we've had a number of individuals and talked about all kinds of different stuff, but uh there's uh part of the problem is there's always some new invasive species happening out there. And so tell us a bit about yourself, uh Vince. Whereabouts uh are you located?

SPEAKER_07 7:48

So uh currently I'm in Sault Ste. Marie, so I'm I'm where our head office is located. Uh that's Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. Yeah, I'm born and raised here. Uh lived here for most of my life, spent a couple of years in Toronto, but uh decided uh there's no place like home, so so came back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 8:05

Yeah. Well, the Sioux is uh my dad's from the Sioux. So and I'm there, I'm up there quite a bit. Um the the uh so the Sioux for those uh international listeners, it's about what, eight hours north of Toronto, I guess, about the easiest way. In around that.

SPEAKER_13 8:21

Yes.

From Law School To Field Work

SPEAKER_09 8:21

Depends on who drive who's driving. If Ron's that's right, yeah. If Ron's driving, it's ten hours. If I'm driving, I'm taking the 407 from Oshawa and it takes me about six and a half, seven hours. And I take the uh 400 series all the way up, so it's not too bad. That's some pretty good timing if you can do it in that amount of time for sure. Yeah, yeah. I find that uh from Oshawa, the 407, uh you can clip along pretty good with that, and and then you hit the 400 and take the 400 right up. Seems to move along pretty good. But uh yeah, so now tell us a bit about your background, Vince. Like uh, where did you uh how did you what was your education? You spent a couple of years in Toronto, what was going on?

SPEAKER_07 9:00

Oh man, so uh it's really interesting, actually. What I was doing previously is completely unrelated to environmental work. Uh originally I was pursuing a degree in law, and so I was studying uh criminology and sociolegal studies at the University of Toronto. Um, and then one thing sort of led to another. There were some health issues and this and that that kind of uh redirected me back home. Um, and for the little while I was actually um uh car salesman. I was working at a local um car dealership here in Sault Ste. Marie called Northside Mazda, selling vehicles. And then COVID hit. And uh, as was for many people, that kind of served as a point of reflection and time to sort of reevaluate where we're at in our lives and whatnot. I don't know if if you can relate, or I'm sure maybe some of your listeners can relate to that as well.

SPEAKER_10 9:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 9:51

Um, and uh this is really funny, if you don't mind me sharing this. I was I was playing a video game at home. It's uh it's a game called Red Dead Redemption 2. Um, and I'm riding through the the simulated wilderness on uh the back of my horse, and uh all of a sudden it kind of dawned upon me. I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing? Why am I like in this virtual wilderness when I can just go outside and enjoy the real wilderness? And so um I started doing that, and it uh it it reignited this this passion that I had for the outdoors and the environment. And so I decided to uh to go back to uh back to school. And so I attended the uh Sioux College here in Sault Ste. Marie and I took the uh the natural environment technologist program. So it's uh it's a three-year program. Um at the college, it was fantastic, and that sort of served as my entry point into the environmental field, and then through a combination of work experience uh networking, um I eventually found my way here at the invasive species center. And uh I've been here for the past uh almost three years now. Almost three years ago. Oh, it's fantastic. It's uh honestly, I've never worked with a better group of people. Um, we really do feel like family here. Um and there's something to there's something to be said about working with a group of people that are genuinely passionate and we're all sort of uh united behind the same sort of purpose. So um yeah, I I know I can't speak highly enough about the individuals that uh that I work alongside here.

SPEAKER_09 11:19

Well, you brought up something and I think I mentioned, Vince. Um you talked about video games.

unknown 11:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_09 11:25

And so uh what happened was, and and you can people can check out there, it's probably too late for this year because I think the applications are uh in around January, February. But for students uh still in school, either high school, college, university, they can make application to run their own business and they get a small business grant. It's like I don't know, it's like I don't know, it uh it's uh two, three thousand dollars to get your business started. So um my oldest son Josh he uh made application and he uh ran a business. He actually did very well with it. Uh so they they have these speakers come in and I remember him um uh saying so dad, they had this speaker there, one of the other students who was doing uh very well, and they were saying how well that this person was doing. And uh and he says, But do you think that's good? And I said, Well, you know, there's students, uh what do you expect? Um I'm not sure, was this person a college student, university student? He says, Well, I'm not sure, but you know, he says, But uh my business, I'm probably doing ten times that. And so it was working out great for him at 16 years old. And the next year he had over 20 people approach him to come work for him. But it's like, well, hang on now, Josh, you gotta remember the logistics. How are you gonna get these people? How are you gonna do this and I gotta do that? So ended up, it didn't really pan out for him. But so he he kind of he's very good with his finances, he does very well. So he still had lots of money in the bank and wasn't pushing too hard to get a job. And so I I remember getting up in the middle of the night and go to the bathroom, and there he is, his door is open, and he's playing video games. I said, Josh, what the heck are you doing? It's like two, three o'clock in the morning. He says, I'm making money. I said, What do you mean you're making money? You're playing video games. He said, No, no, no. He says, I'm making money in this. I said, What are you talking about? You're making so he says, I accumulate wealth in this video game and then I sell it online. And he showed me his bank account. It was like twelve hundred bucks American a week he was making playing video games at 17 years old. Whoa. Yeah. And so then he comes to me, he says, Dad, Dad, I couldn't believe it first time. He showed me his bank account. I go, holy geez, you are. And anyway, so he he there's all kind of different and ingenious ways to make money that I had no idea. So then he comes to me, he says, Dad, what do I do about this? I said, What do you mean? What? He said, I just got this thing from the uh the US government, just shut him down, his PayPal account, PayPal account down because they wanted to know why he was getting$2,000 from Lithuania.

SPEAKER_07 14:04

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 14:08

And then he's doing other stuff like did you know you can make money doing surveys? Filling out surveys? Yeah, I didn't know. No, I did not. Yeah, so he's making a couple hundred bucks doing filling out surveys and doing stuff like that and playing video games. And it was just like wow. And that's thinking outside the box.

SPEAKER_07 14:27

That yeah, and now isn't that an interesting thing? It seems that the uh the upcoming generation has a a different way of approaching, they have like a different mindset when it comes to making money and and discovering different ways. Like when I was growing up, we used to joke about it's like, can you imagine getting paid to like play video games? And now this is this is a reality. Like there are there are entire industries built around this. And and your son is a beautiful testament to the to that, right?

SPEAKER_09 14:52

So well it just shocked me. And I know my nephew, Matthew, out in Manitoba, um, I don't know the video games, I don't know the ones, but uh there was this uh uh I guess it was a good, it was a tank game of some kind, uh a war tank game. Okay. Anyway, I don't know what it was. Yeah, I don't know what it was, but anyway, so um they there was a crew of guys internationally that wanted him on their team. So he said, but I I don't have a a uh a gaming computer to be able to do that. So they sent him a gaming computer to play video games to be on their team. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 15:33

Okay. Jerry, I gotta tell you, you're selling me on this video game uh thing for making money. This is crazy.

SPEAKER_09 15:41

Well, yeah, it was it was shocking. And uh so he eventually stopped. I said, How come you stopped? He said, Well, it's very stressful. Um and very when you're dealing with people like from Lithuania, you're up at all hours of the night to try and make money. And he said, I know that's the guy, because he tray I all of a sudden the money's in my bank account, and this guy here who he's been battling against now has all his gear, and now you can see because they I guess they show the gear that you buy or whatever, the wealth or the armies or or uh uh whatever it was. But anyways, yeah, I can tell that's the guy because now he's got all the stuff that I just sold.

SPEAKER_07 16:20

So that is cra you can sell your virtual gear to other gamers.

Emerald Ash Borer Meets Black Ash

SPEAKER_09 16:26

Yeah. I I didn't know how he did it and I was shocked. But anyways, he he showed it to me and then he showed I saw the stuff from the U.S. government uh uh shutting down his PayPal account uh because he had to have a U.S. PayPal because of the international money coming in a lot from the States, so it was interesting. But that's not what we're here to talk about. No, no, not not at all. But it So it's kind of interesting. So then Stellas, you're working on this, uh you know, we've got this thing called the Emerald Ash Bore Beetle, which is Yes. I was the Minister of Natural Resources when it was discovered and came in down Windsorway. My understanding at that time was uh that it came in on some contaminated skids from China. Yes. And I know that uh myself I had brought in a private member's bill that was uh that specifically stated that any organization that could be identified as being responsible for an invasive species coming into the uh province of Ontario was responsible for the cleanup and damages as results. But it didn't go anywhere, and I gotta tell you, the shipping industry was in huge panic that this bill would go through because I guess the shipping industry around the world is uh has a a problem with their ballast water. But so they came and did a presentation to my committees, and actually I was uh invited to a U.S. Senate committee to do some presentations on it because they liked the bill so much that they thought it would be good. So I was actually in uh Sault Ste. Marie and in uh Sault Ste. Marie, the United Michigan, not Ontario, presenting before a committee up there on that very bill. But so what's happening with this um black ash uh community action uh network that you're involved with and dealing with black ash as a result of the impacts of Emerald Ash borer beetle? May maybe you should kind of give us a Vince a back a big basically a breakdown of what it looks like and what it's doing to ash trees out there.

SPEAKER_07 18:22

Absolutely. Um first of all, that's that's really fascinating that you were involved in that capacity and actually we're working while the Emerald Ash borer um was introduced and and was beginning to spread. So unfortunately, yes, that's still very much a reality here in uh well in North America, but I guess we'll we'll focus the scope specifically to Ontario because that's um um our project uh is just specific to the province. Um yeah, so unfortunately, because of the the years of spreading and infestation or the infesting that the emerald ash borer has done and the consequent tree mortalities that have occurred, um black ash in particular has now been listed as an endangered species in Ontario. Um and so now um of the uh of the ash species, there are uh there are other ash species. There's green ash, there's white ash, there's also blue ash and pumpkin ash. Um but black ash um seems to be the one that uh that is being impacted the the most severely by the emerald ash board. And I guess that's because of a a combination of factors. Um black ash itself, it's uh it's typically found in wetland environments. So it has a much more specific and specialized environment where that tree is found. And that itself comes with its own host of limitations and um and influencing factors as well. But uh um, especially if we're talking about the context of climate change, the warming climate, uh, many of those wetland environments that are exposed to higher, um, higher amounts of heat, they're they're drying out a bit more. Um, and there's some other things as well, but uh it's resulting in the black ash trees being uh a bit less resilient to external stressors, such like invasions from invasive species like the emerald ash bore. Um the other problem as well is that black ash, uh it seems um it seems to take uh a bit longer to regenerate than the other ash species. Um so that's another it's another limiting factor. Um but anyway, so so it was identified that um work heavy work needs to be done uh in terms of conservation for black ash in Ontario. And so we we sent out an application uh looking to see if we can kind of tie the emerald ash bore in uh in in some type of existing work. And so we were we were familiar that seed collection is an initiative that um that is being done already across Canada, um across the range of Black Ash. Um and so we were able to receive funding from the Ministry of Environment, uh Conservation and Parks um to undertake this um Black Ash initiative that we officially called the Black Ash Community Action Network. So uh beginning in 2024 and spanning into 2027, uh, but of course, we're hoping that um with the success of this project, that we'll be able to get um further funding to carry this uh this project into future years. But essentially, what our goal is is to increase awareness to the public in the province about the the ongoing impacts of the Emerald Ash Bore and that very wheel, uh very real connection to um um species at risk that invasive species pose, in this case, that being black ash. Um, so just increasing awareness about that, but then also um recruiting volunteers from across the province to assist in collecting um black ash seed for long-term preservation. So, to assist with this initiative, we've partnered with um the National Tree Seed Center, which is out in New Brunswick. Um that's ultimately where the seeds will be stored for long term preservation. Uh, we've partnered with the Ministry of Natural Resources and with the Forest Gene Conservation Association. Um, so that's that's kind of like an overview. View of the initiative.

SPEAKER_09 22:02

So how does somebody identify a black ash as compared to a a white ash or a green ash? Or I haven't heard of pumpkin ash either.

SPEAKER_07 22:11

Right. So uh first of all, uh the so when I go, I'll just explain like when I go in the field exactly what I'm looking for. Um the the first way to distinguish uh ash trees first and foremost from the others, um you look up at the tree and you try to identify that opposite branching pattern. Um so where you have along the trunk, there's the two opposing branches that are growing completely opposite each other. So that's a good way of singling out um what may be an ash tree uh rather than other species. But then um what I find most helpful is then to find a low branch and look at the leaf itself. And so um, like other ash trees, uh black ash has what is called a compound leaf. So the entire leaf is actually made up of a bunch of smaller leaflets as compared to a simple leaf that you would find on, say, a maple tree, which is just one entire leaf that is unbroken. Um so if you're able to uh to see that leaf and it's uh and it's it's broken up and it and has a bunch of different leaflets, uh we can get a little bit closer and look at how those individual leaflets are attached to the stalk of the of the leaf. Um and so the key distinguishing factor here is when those leaflets are growing directly off of the stem, and there is no small, um, there's no small other stem that attaches that leaflet to the central stem. They're just growing directly off. When you're looking at other species like white ash, for example, there's a very distinct and clear smaller stem that branches out and connects to the smaller leaflet. So that's a good way of distinguishing. Um I also like to look when there isn't leaves, for example, like after the leaves have dropped in the fall or in the winter, or even in the spring before the leaves have emerged, to look at the uh the twigs, uh, the twigs of the branches. And so you'll see um it's composed of a terminal bud and then two uh opposite lateral buds immediately below the terminal bud. Um and that terminal bud looks to me like a chocolate chip. Um and then the the the first pair of opposite lateral buds, which are just beside um and below, there's a visible gap. So they're uh in the other ash species, those will be pressed right up against the terminal um bud. But in black ash, you will see a very visible gap that separates that terminal bud and the lateral um buds on the side.

SPEAKER_09 24:32

Um is there those there something inside the wood that makes it uh like a difference between a white ash and a black ash? Is it the the the the the the grain of the wood once you get it in, or what why do we call it black ash?

SPEAKER_07 24:46

Um that that's a good I actually don't know. So that's one of the that's one of the common names. Another one would be uh swamp ash. Uh I've also seen that it's been it's been named uh brown ash. So I'm I'm not entirely sure why black or brown per se.

How The Beetle Kills Trees

SPEAKER_09 25:03

Right, because you know you've got your uh red oaks and your white oaks as well. Yes. You know, sometimes uh there's reasons, and I didn't know if there was a reason that uh the the core wood you can tell or not. But so okay, so uh the the emerald ash borer beetle, so uh for a lot of people doing what it is, it's kind of that's the color of it, it's kind of uh emerald green. Yes. How big is this this beetle when you see it? Are we looking the um the size of a June bug as we call them, or is it uh small or how large?

SPEAKER_07 25:34

So the the actual size of the emerald ash borer, they they tend to be about eight to fourteen millimeters long, so they're they're not very big. Right. Um yeah, and about uh three to three and a half millimeters wide.

SPEAKER_09 25:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 25:48

Um so they're so their body's very elongated.

SPEAKER_09 25:51

Right. So when they attack a tree, they land on the tree and uh and how do they get inside? They call it a bore. So how is it boring in? Is it eating through the the bark to get it to the to the Cambrian?

SPEAKER_07 26:03

Right, right. So um the adults will lay their eggs uh in crevices and little cracks within the the bark of the host tree. Um and then once those eggs hatch, uh yes, they will they will begin to actually chew their way underneath the bark uh and into the living tissue directly underneath where they will uh where they will feed uh and acquire the nutrients they needed to develop. And so they'll actually develop underneath the bark of the tree inside that living tissue.

SPEAKER_09 26:32

Right. And then they kind of girdle the tree, which means they they eat around it, which stops the nutrients from coming to the roots to get up to the top, right?

SPEAKER_07 26:40

Yes, absolutely. And they leave those characteristic S-shapes uh we call them feeding galleries. Um especially if you if you peel off the bark of a tree that uh has been infested with the emerald ash borer, you'll see those like squiggly-looking S-shapes uh uh little boring tunnels. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 26:58

Is there a way to identify the eggs on a tree? Like because I know you get oh, if you're dealing with a uh well, they don't call it gypsy moth anymore, whatever they call it, you can kind of get that kind of matte kind of um looking material where the eggs are in. But is there a way to identify the army loss borbeet legs?

SPEAKER_07 27:16

Yeah, that's um that's a very good question. And actually, um in terms of the egg identification, I I can't speak too too much to that. I'm sure there is. Uh to me, it sounds like it might be a little bit problematic just because of the nature of where they're laid being um kind of within cracks and crevices within the bark, so it might be hard. Right. Um, they're also very, very small. So um for people that are trained to do it, I'm sure they can.

SPEAKER_09 27:41

Right. So would you know of stuff like uh so uh earlier on uh when I was talking, I was talking about permithrin. Are you familiar with you permithrin?

SPEAKER_07 27:51

I I am not, no.

SPEAKER_09 27:52

Okay, so I just wondered if if spraying your tree with permithrin, but if you're not familiar with it, then you wouldn't know. So the other thing is is ash trees kind of have keys like a maple, right?

SPEAKER_07 28:03

They have what, sorry?

SPEAKER_09 28:04

Like keys, they're seeds.

SPEAKER_07 28:07

Yes, yes, exactly. Um very similar, uh winged Samaras. So the the the maple seeds, they're winged and how they they kind of propel and um sort of fly around is the the same thing with the ash seeds.

SPEAKER_09 28:19

Right. So does the emerlash boarby attack any other trees other than ash trees?

SPEAKER_07 28:25

Um in North America, no, they're they're exclusive to ash trees as their host.

SPEAKER_09 28:30

Right. So as the ashtrees die off, then so should the emerlash boar beetle or reduce its numbers?

SPEAKER_07 28:37

Um I I guess so. I guess so. Yeah, it's it's hard to say, right? Right, right. So uh that's that's something we definitely don't want to happen, right? And why we're being so proactive, because we definitely don't want to uh lose the ash trees.

SPEAKER_09 28:51

Right. So so and I recall the city of Oscar where I'm in, they they were injecting ash trees with a material that was supposed to, but the trees I saw injected, they all died anyways. Are you familiar with that program or has it been successful in other locations?

SPEAKER_07 29:07

Um I know that they have seen success with the injecting, um, but it it it's very costly. And I believe that more than one um session of injections has to be completed in order for it to be successful. So it's something that has to be repeated.

SPEAKER_10 29:20

Right.

SPEAKER_07 29:20

Um, yeah, and so it that that method is definitely limited just because of it the the costly nature, and um, yeah, it's unfortunately something that can't be done to every tree. There there are millions of ash trees that are infested, right?

SPEAKER_09 29:32

So yeah, well, there was some there that were huge. Uh you're looking at uh 70-foot ash trees that I was talking that probably had a oh a four or five-foot girths that were the ones that uh I saw injected that it all ended up dying off, anyways. Oh wow.

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SPEAKER_06 30:49

Tight lines, everyone.

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SPEAKER_09 31:10

Okay, we're uh with Tristan in Belleville. Tristan, you've had some experience with the Chaga, the regular tea. Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Um, so I actually ran into you about a year ago, same uh place you are now, and uh I uh just was like, oh you know, I'll get it back and try it. So I think four straight days of drinking one cup of tea every day, I noticed an immediate difference like like in my body just feeling better, and then definitely drink them after drinking the night before, like alcohol. It kills hangovers big, big time.

SPEAKER_09 31:44

I'll usually have two afterwards, but well, what happens, Tristan, is uh hangovers are essentially a lot of free radicals in your brain, and the antioxidant level is so high in Chega that it eliminates a lot of those. I get a lot of guys have the same thing when they've had a good night uh and the next day they're hurting feeling for it. And so you have the same result, right? A couple of cups in your That's right. I makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

I've taken them to basket parties multiple times, and friends of mine that don't drink tea ever, I'll have them drink one in the morning, and even they are saying the first time they've ever had them that they notice a difference that day, that they don't feel so groggy, they're not so like blonde, kind of down, and like don't want to do anything. So definitely recommend drinking regularly.

Stump Regrowth And Stress Shoots

SPEAKER_09 32:26

Okay, thanks very much, Kristen. No problem. Thank you. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about, and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier. By giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code CANopy, C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode. One of the other things though, um, Vince, was that I saw it appeared that they cut trees in Oshua that appeared to be infected uh before the tree died off completely, and then from the stumps they had secondary growth coming up. Yes. Is that uh are you familiar with that? Uh what happens there?

SPEAKER_07 33:54

So the the secondary growth, I'm curious if if we're referring to what we call the epicormic shoots. I don't know if that's I couldn't tell you offhand.

SPEAKER_09 34:04

I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 34:05

Okay. Um the yeah, I'm I'm maybe I'm I'm not understanding it really. So so just when the when the tree was cut, the secondary growth?

SPEAKER_09 34:14

So what happened was uh so you could see the tree was infected because you're getting certain branches dying off in the tree.

SPEAKER_07 34:20

Right.

SPEAKER_09 34:21

The city came down and cut the tree off, cut the tree off, uh basically at ground level, and then put the stump away, and then from the stump that was there, there's all kind of shoots coming up uh from that from that, which are now uh quite large trees and probably about two, three inches in diameter now.

SPEAKER_07 34:43

Okay. So from that one single tree now there are many different uh stems that have come out from that uh the cut uh the cut one, right? Exactly, yes. Okay. So uh absolutely like that's that's part of the regeneration. Um I guess the idea is to remove the affected part of the tree. Um I what I believe um the tree regenerated from is what is what is referred to as epicormic shoots. And that's actually something that happens to the the tree when it's stressed. Right. Um the the ash trees will begin to sprout these um these new types of shoots off of the the main trunk of the tree and and also from other parts like the branches as well. Uh it's like a stress response um um yeah to invasion. And that's actually one of the ways that you can identify if an ash tree is infested, you will see these these, they all they kind of look strange when you look at the tree. It almost doesn't look like it they're supposed to be there, but you will see these new growths kind of growing off uh from the trunk.

SPEAKER_09 35:40

Right. Yeah. So is that one way to to ensure that ash trees still continue to stay around?

SPEAKER_07 35:46

Definitely. I mean, if the existing tree is still able to regenerate, even if it's in that form, the uh that that's one way that we can um, yeah, absolutely keep keep that tree uh continuing on.

Seed Collection And Volunteer Steps

SPEAKER_09 35:58

Right. Right. So uh Vince, what's the range of the black ash tree? Is it uh basically, is there parts of Ontario or is it all across Canada, or is there uh you know certain areas that it has or has not?

SPEAKER_07 36:10

Uh yeah, so it uh so it's it's very prolific here in Ontario. It's found as far east, the easternmost edge is in Manitoba. So past Manitoba, you will not find black ash. And it goes as far west out um uh to Newfoundland. Um but in Newfoundland, the from from what I've been able to gather is the just because of the um the environment there and it being at the furthermost extent of its western range, um, the trees themselves don't grow very large. They remain relatively small compared to the black ash that you'll find more in the interior of the range. Um so yeah, but uh but here across Ontario, Quebec, um, you'll definitely find lots of uh lots of black ash trees, big healthy ones.

SPEAKER_09 36:54

So and you can identify the black. So if somebody wants to collect these black ash seeds, is this what do they do or how do they be participative, or is that available to do? Collecting those seeds. Absolutely. Okay, so tell us how they go about that.

SPEAKER_07 37:11

Yeah, so so actually I I would love to encourage uh your listeners so they can they can go on to our website at uh www.invasivespeciescenter.ca. And on the website we have a webpage that's uh that's dedicated to the Black Ash Community Action Network. Uh that provides anybody interested with uh with an introduction to the program um and how they can get involved. There is a registration form that volunteers are required to fill. Um, because this is a species at risk in Ontario, we've received uh conditional exemptions from the ministry to um partake in activities uh involving black ash. And so, in order for volunteers to be covered under those same conditional exemptions, they have to be officially registered through the Invasive Species Center. Um and so, yeah, uh there's there's a bunch of great resources there. We just developed um a brand new seed collection protocol for volunteers. This was specifically designed for volunteers in mind. Um so we tried to make uh it as simplistic as possible. Um it tells you the uh the equipment that you need, uh the environments where you'll find black ash, um, and then it guides you through the seed collection process. Um, and then uh ending with uh shipping the seeds. Um, so we give instructions on how to mail those seeds out um to the invasive species center, and then uh we're do some further processing here at the office, and then we send those out to the National Treaty Center in New Brunswick. Um yeah, so I guess first and foremost, it's uh it's if if individuals are aware of areas um where you're more likely to find water, more like wetland areas, those are places where you'll you'll be uh more successful finding black ash. Um so it's a matter of heading out into those areas and uh um using the different ID uh tools that we have on the webpage and in the protocol to identify black ash. Um and that's that's kind of a good starting point, is uh is identifying where those trees are. Um yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_09 39:15

So are there naturalist clubs like uh I used to be a member of the Oshma Naturalist Club? Uh are they getting involved and having days where they're trying to collect or participate, or is this just individuals you're finding doing this sort of work?

SPEAKER_07 39:30

Uh it's it's a combined effort. So we're we're there are definitely some naturalist groups. There's a little bit more outreach I need to do on my end. Um, but yeah, for example, here in Sault Ste. Marie, we have the Sioux Naturalists, uh, which is a wonderful naturalist group. Um, they're aware, and there are a couple of individuals from there that are going to help out as well. Uh we plan to hope host some future workshops. Um, so to uh whether that be giving presentations to other naturalist groups, but uh yeah, to to give a hands-on experience and and get more people involved. So uh with the black ash, is there a male and female tree as well? So the trees, they actually um they the trees produce bisex, they're bisexual, I guess you you say. So they produce both male and female flowers on the same tree. I forget what the actual terminology is. There's there's a scientific wording for it. Um, but on the on the same individual.

SPEAKER_09 40:22

Right.

SPEAKER_07 40:25

Um no, not not not catkins.

SPEAKER_09 40:29

Okay, so so uh so just pretty much every single tree would have seeds, then it's not that uh only the female tree or only the male tree has the seeds, right?

SPEAKER_07 40:39

Right, that's correct, to my understanding.

SPEAKER_09 40:41

Okay. Okay, and so um if they get involved and they can go on the website to find the invasive species center with the Black Ash Community Uh Action Network, and that's where they kind of get involved if they want to participate in that.

iNaturalist Mapping For Black Ash

SPEAKER_07 40:54

Yeah, that'll that'll be like the first uh first place to stop, definitely. Um uh something else I'd like to mention as well. Uh part of this project is to um uh to scout the locations of black ash and to document them. So I'm sure your listeners are familiar with the platform called iNaturalist. Are you familiar with that?

SPEAKER_09 41:14

Uh I believe, yes. I've had a number of guests mention it before on the on the program.

SPEAKER_07 41:19

Yes. So we've we've uh launched an iNaturalist project called the Ontario Black Ash Inventory. And so that's something that we highly encourage any of your listeners that are interested in helping out to do is to go um on iNaturalist and join that project. Um, and while they are out in the field scouting for black ash to actually take observations, so to take photos of black ash trees and upload them onto that platform, um, because all of the black ash that are observed um within Ontario, uh that information is actually going to be used to guide the um the ministry um uh just uh in gaining a better understanding of where black ash occurs across the landscape. You know, there's there's um with limited resources and uh and capacity and and people power, there's only so much uh that can be done to document. So if we're able to get the involvement of what we call citizen scientists, uh so that's just anybody with a cell phone essentially, um, to help with those scouting efforts, that would really, really help get a better understanding of where black ash is.

Clean Drain Dry And Firewood Rules

SPEAKER_09 42:20

Very good. Very good. Well, uh Vincent, there was some uh some other things that uh we probably should this is the time of year when when spring's uh about and things are going and everybody's getting outside. Maybe you can kind of uh we'll go over some of the other things that uh we should be talking about. Anything specific you can think of for our listeners would be interested in hearing about.

SPEAKER_07 42:42

Absolutely. Um so I don't know how the winter was for you guys. It was brutal here in Sault Ste. Marie. And uh with the warmer weather and the snow finally gone, I know that uh there are a lot of people, including myself, that are anxious to get out on the water. Um people are getting ready to go fishing, uh engaging in different water sports, uh, whether that be kayaking or or what have you. So one of the things that we like to um tell our listeners and just the member of the public, there's messaging that we use. It's called clean drain dry. So whenever you're you're using any type of craft on the water, uh once you've um come out from the water, we really advise everybody and encourage them to clean the exterior of their watercraft. If there's any water that has accumulated any standing water within, to drain that out and make sure that there isn't any water. Um, and then ultimately to let your boat or watercraft stay outside and dry in the air and get some sunlight just to kill off any potential um organisms that might have uh hitched or ride on your boat. Um, because that's one of the ways that we actually spread aquatic invasive species from one water body to another, is from our activities, right? And so if we can be proactive and uh eliminating that that uh that potential risk there. So clean drains. Dry. That's a really important one. Another one as well, I'm sure a lot of people have camps uh where they're they're burning firewood uh or what have you. Um we really encourage people not to move or transport your wood. Um that's one of the ways that uh invasive um invasive pests such as the emerald ash bore, uh which bore themselves underneath the bark of the wood, are able to be transported over long distance. It's it's not that people are doing this uh intentionally to cause harm. They're just not aware of it. Um so we're we're advising people not to move your firewood to source your firewood locally where you're burning it. Um those are like immediate actions that everybody can take, especially now uh during this time uh to minimize the spread. Um the other thing as well, uh if you're going hiking through an area, you never know if there's uh an invasive plant present. Um oftentimes people will get um pieces of the plant, whether it be seeds in their shoes or fragments of leaves or whatnot, and they'll leave an area and go somewhere else. Well, that's that's one way that we can accidentally spread, um further spread invasive species. So we just ask people to be cautious. Um if you're leaving a um um a hiking area or a trail, just pay attention to your gear. Uh it's always a good practice to keep a little boot brush on you and brush off your boots just to remove any debris uh before going to another area.

Invasion Curve And Phragmites Reality

SPEAKER_09 45:22

Okay. And so what's this invasive curve that you um I hear about? Uh what is that all about?

SPEAKER_07 45:31

Oh, the invasion curve. It's uh the invasion curve. So actually on our website we have a wonderful graphic that illustrates this, but essentially it just kind of gives a good visual of the invasion process and and it really um uh it really drives home the importance of being proactive. So the best form of invasive species management and the most effective is prevention. So if we can um if we can be proactive and and eliminate any of those potential pathways for invasive species to be introduced in the first place, that's the first, the absolute first line of defense is being proactive uh and preventing that from happening. And actually, Jerry, it's uh uh even us just having this conversation here uh and and getting your listeners aware of uh invasive species. This is us being proactive and preventing the spread of invasive species. So that that's just one way. Um, but then unfortunately, when if there is a species arrival, then it's a matter of time, right? Um that's uh how quickly we're able to respond will dictate um how successful we are in eradicating um because that's the goal. If it arrives, we need to get rid of it before it becomes a problem.

SPEAKER_09 46:41

Yeah, um just look at phragmites. Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 46:44

Yeah oh boy, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yes, that's a very good example.

SPEAKER_09 46:51

For listeners, uh, when you're driving along and you see kind of areas that used to have cattails, bulrushes, as we call them, and now you see these long stem grasses with this fluffy, feathery kind of top. That's Phrag Miteys, and it's everywhere now. Yeah, and it's an invasive species, it's very difficult to control, obviously.

SPEAKER_07 47:10

Yes, very difficult to control. Um we at the invasive species center are are involved with uh uh quite heavily with that management as well through our Ontario Frage Mighty's action program. Um, but yeah, that's definitely a nasty one.

SPEAKER_09 47:25

Yeah. And one other one we should talk about is uh uh what I'm hearing about late lately is the hammerhead worms.

SPEAKER_07 47:31

Yeah, the dreaded hammerhead worms. This is like Okay, what's the story with that? All right, oh man, so uh on social media, like uh I've been seeing a lot of panic surrounding that recently, and it's definitely something in the past few years that's been gaining a lot of traction. Um I kind of want to I would like to ease some of that panic. Of of course, um, as with other invasive species, it's something to be aware of and and and to familiarize familiarize yourself with. Um but yeah, so it so it as the name suggests, the worms have a hammerhead sort of shaped head, just like a hammerhead shark would. Um these are they're um a species of worm that was introduced through uh the ornamental plant trade. Um so just with if in um the soil of plants uh from other from other places of the world that it uh where they're where they're found, and they're unfortunately uh brought here. Um but yeah, so uh you're most likely to find them in your on your property um in shaded, moist environments, so maybe like behind your shed, underneath debris, uh maybe under your patio furniture or or whatnot. Um the best practice with these hammerhead worms, your first instinct might be to be, oh my god, I need to step on this thing and kill it because it's terrifying looking. Um if you actually damage the worm, uh separate into multiple parts, it can regenerate into multiple different worms. So it's it's a good practice to not do that. Uh you need to kind of uh uh avoid your instinct. Um but yeah, if you do want to eradicate them or or get rid of them, uh we advise you to pick up the worm with some type of protective gear like garden gloves. Um the hammerhead worms do contain a mild toxin that will irritate your skin. Um so when we say toxin, this isn't something that's you're not going to die from touching the hammerhead worm. Uh it might just irritate your skin slightly.

SPEAKER_09 49:24

But it's a nice folic acid.

SPEAKER_07 49:26

It's uh I forget the ex the exact name of the toxin. It's the same type of toxin that's found in the uh the deadly puffer fish. And that's where I'm going. But but hold on a minute. It's we're we're talking about concentrations, right? It has very low concentrations of that toxin.

SPEAKER_10 49:41

Right.

SPEAKER_07 49:41

Um yeah, so they can be killed. Uh, we advise you either freezing them until they're dead and then discarding them in the trash, or you can submerse them in uh robbing alcohol um to kill them, but definitely don't cut them up into multiple parts. The the one concern comes with people's pets. So if your pets are loose in the backyard and they see these worms, uh, if they eat them, it can cause them to become sick and vomit uh and probably prompting a visit to the vet. So that's the one thing that we want to caution our listeners is uh just to be mindful of your pets um with the uh with the hammerhead worm. How is it tra how is it moving around? Uh just so the transportation of an of uh of soil. Um so just as soil is being moved around, um, if it was initially uh introduced from a plant being planted from soil that was didn't originate from here, but maybe it was imported, um, that's how it's getting into the environment. So uh ultimately the the moving of soil from one place to another.

unknown 50:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 50:41

Oh, okay. Wow. So yeah. So you know, when you're I guess we see all the I drove by uh one yesterday, a truck was digging out in the digging ditches out and uh loading it into a truck with uh that kind of soil. But uh I is there areas that this hammerhead worm is located in now or uh that it's identified?

SPEAKER_07 51:02

It has been found in in uh in different places in southern Ontario. So anyone can uh anyone can actually go online and and you'll you'll find maps of where they've been reported. Right. So there have been reportings in different parts of Toronto, for example. Um yeah, there they are uh either through the iNaturalist platform, there's another platform called EdMaps, um where you can actually see where people have reported. Right. Um but but definitely you can you can see them there.

Culture, Responsibility, And Closing

SPEAKER_09 51:30

Okay. All right, Vince. Well, uh is there anything else that you should warn us about? Because the sky is falling and worms are taking over and trees are dying and everything's happened. Like, oh man, it just gets people worried and concerned that you know all this stuff is happening and what can we do about it? What other sort of things that that we should be cognant of, cognizant of, yeah, make sure that everything's okay.

SPEAKER_07 51:54

Absolutely. So so the one thing I want to reinforce, because I know a lot of what we're what we're talking about is a little bit of doom and gloom and and the the terrible impacts and this and that, but but us being aware and having the discussion and the dialogue, like this is such a positive and amazing thing, right? Um if you if you're not aware of the problems that exist, that's that's something to be worried about. But we're aware of these issues and we're being much more proactive and we're getting the messaging out and getting people um uh educated about these things, right? So I so I think that's a wonderful positive thing. It's uh it's great. And uh, you know, we we keep getting wonderful feedback, people are are are impassioned and empowered to to help out. And um, yeah, so it's not all doom and gloom. It's just we're we're just spreading awareness and uh and and and that's a thing, right? Right. Uh knowledge is power. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_09 52:45

Vince, one of the things that I happen to see and I see it, uh I got a couple of neighbors, they they wrap kind of a plastic around the trunk of the tree up at about uh four or five foot level. Is that specifically designed to help with something? I've seen it in where was that, Saskatchewan or Manitoba as well. I think it was Saskatchewan in um Elm Tree. Is is is that designed to help anything to stop certain things from getting up the tree, or is that just stop squirrels from going up, probably?

SPEAKER_07 53:20

It it could be for the squirrels. Uh I'm honestly not I'm not too familiar with that, so I can't speak to it.

SPEAKER_09 53:26

Yeah, it was uh kind of strange, and it just I never stopped to ask them or nobody's been outside to ask why. And sometimes I see these lights they put on the trees as well. I'm not sure if that's for insect reasons or that's for just decoration, but uh seems to be maybe maybe a little bit of both.

SPEAKER_10 53:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 53:44

Um could I could I actually just mention one thing I forgot to mention before we wrap up? Sure, it is. Um uh just uh just the one thing to remind people of. It's uh uh you know, uh I think a lot of us have maybe can speak to this, just that feeling of disconnect from the environment. But um we're we're very much a part of the environment and the natural environment, um, as all other living things. And uh one of the things that's so important about this black ash work, as well as the preservation of the strong cultural um and spiritual significance with black ash and the role that it plays with indigenous people across um across North America where black ash occurs. This is a particular species that um has been used traditionally for a very long time. Um it's used for a way of life. Um and uh when we're talking about traditions, um, it's so important that we preserve traditions because ultimately this is what connects people from the past generations, right? This is what connects and tethers people from generation and generation across space and time. And so um being able to be aware that, you know, our actions do have consequences and they are far-reaching and extend, um, they do extend greater than just the environmental impact, that it does impact people, the people that are very much a part of that very environment that uh that we are aiming to protect, right? Yep. Um and so I encourage your listeners, I know perhaps we're running out of time here, but maybe to do a little bit more research on that, just the connection between black ash and indigenous people. Um, there is a strong connection. And so being able to preserve the species, of course, it's to preserve the species and the ecological functions that it serves, but also to um protect and preserve the traditions and the memories of the people that are tied with this uh with this particular species. So I really encourage your listeners to uh uh do a little bit more research into that and find out.

SPEAKER_09 55:32

Well, that's very much appreciated.

SPEAKER_07 55:34

Well, thanks, Vince.

SPEAKER_09 55:36

I very much appreciate the update. It's always uh interesting to hear the what's happening, or uh sometimes we don't like to hear about what's happening, but that's how we get informed. That's how we make changes in order to benefit uh our environment out there in the future. Thanks a lot for taking the time to be on the program. We really appreciate it. And it's just uh more updates of what's happening out there under the canopy. Thanks, Vince.

Network Promo And Sign Off

SPEAKER_07 55:58

Yeah, thank you very much, Jerry. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_05 56:00

Okay, but did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, Steve Nedzwickey, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, Diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people. Share their stories of our trials, tribulations, and inspirations. Learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Meanwhile, we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass, and we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing jump.

SPEAKER_13 57:06

My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that's might be more fishing than it was punching.

SPEAKER_05 57:13

You so confidently you said, Hey Pat, have you ever eaten a drink? Find diaries of a lodge owner now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.