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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 149: Stone, Sand, And Gravel Explained For Everyday Life
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The modern world feels like steel and glass, but it actually starts with something far less glamorous: stone, sand, and gravel. We sit down with Sharon Armstrong, Executive Director of the Ontario Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association, to unpack the “hidden in plain sight” resource that becomes our roads, sidewalks, bridges, hospitals, schools, and homes, and why most of us only notice it when a gravel truck slows us down.
We get practical fast. Sharon explains what “aggregate” really means, how road beds are layered and compacted to survive Ontario’s freeze-thaw cycle, and why a Roman road cross-section is not as different from today’s as you might think. We also clear up the terms people mix up constantly: pits versus quarries, sand versus gravel versus crushed stone, and why “recipes” and specifications change depending on whether you’re building a driveway, a basement slab, or a piece of major city infrastructure.
Then we zoom out to the hard part: approvals, public perception, and the real trade-offs. Sharon walks us through what it takes to open or expand a site, including hydrogeology studies, air and noise work, natural heritage reviews, public consultation, zoning, and in many areas duty to consult with First Nations. We talk about why the process can stretch to 10 to 12 years, why transport is often the biggest cost and emissions driver, and how rehabilitation can turn former sites into parks, lakes, golf courses, and even aquaculture.
Outdoor Journal Radio Promo
SPEAKER_12Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola. And I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the host of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, and I'll be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm. Now what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing.
SPEAKER_04I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
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SPEAKER_05From athletes to all the other guys who go golfing. Me and Garcie Turks, and all the Russians would go fishing.
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Under The Canopy Sets The Theme
SPEAKER_09I'm Jerry Olette, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom, and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people, that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully, we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Well,
Listener Shoutouts And Home Updates
SPEAKER_09as always, we're thanking all our listeners all across Canada, the States, all around the world, you know, still in Ghana and down through the Caribbean, and those that listen down in the Bahamas as well as Bermuda, Saudi, Arabia, and all the other places that we have listeners. We really appreciate it. And I know we've got some uh listeners in England as well. We really appreciate that. And as usual, you got any questions? Don't be afraid to ask. You got any suggestions for the show, let us know. We'll see what we can do. Now, I gotta give you some updates. So I always talk about Gunner. And those that listen to the show know that Gunner loves to get his teeth brushed. Recently, I got three dogs in the house now, and a cat and the baby, which is great, and no problems there. Uh the baby, uh, Garrett and Brittany's son, my grandson, now, and they moved back from Calgary. So, those that haven't heard, they've moved in with us until they're while they're looking for a place. So we've got uh dogalooza in the house, and this morning at 7 o'clock or before say, yeah, before 7, I'm I'm sneaking through the house because you don't want to wake the baby, and trying to hook the harnesses on the dog and then put these two in the car to go for their run, and then go get the other dog and then put it in so it's not everybody all the dogs barking because they're excited, et cetera, et cetera. And it was pretty good. But I gotta tell you, well, Belle, which is uh Garrett's dog, it's a dobe, and it yanks pretty hard on that. And since my chiropractor, bless his soul, passed in January from shoveling snow, great guy. Horust, I can't say enough about him, send him a lot of people. I haven't been able to find somebody to be able to put that rib back in place. Although I've been using a massager. And what I do is I take this and it kind of helps a little bit, but uh it's still not quite right. But sure, lo and behold, uh take Belle out to put her in the car with Benny, Josh's dog, my oldest son, and his fiancé, Casey, who are, well, they're uh she's an influencer, one of those ones. And and one of the airline companies is flying her to uh a province. Uh actually they're flying her to PEI to do an influencing thing. And so we get the pleasure of having Benny, which is a cockapoo. Now we've got Benny, the cockaboo, Belle, which yanked my rib out of place again this morning, and Gunner. And Gunner's just kind of sits back and like, oh, here we go. What am I gonna do with all these dogs around? But so I get the massager out, and who runs up to me and I forgot? You know, Gunner loves to have his teeth brushed, but he also loves this dang massager machine. And we haven't had it out probably in eight months. I started doing my my rib there to see if I could pop it back in. And who's sitting there looking with his droopy eyes and ears down, waiting for his turn? Sure enough, Gunner. But that's not a problem, and we love him dearly. But I I've been trying some other stuff as well to see if I could alleviate some of the problems. And I know as we get older, and it was a guy that was a parks director for the city of Oshawa who mentioned to me, I was up coaching hockey up at uh the North Arenas there. It used to be called the Legends Center. Now it's a Dell Park. And he said, Look, what's the matter? And I said, Well, I get this little back stuff every once in a while, so I lean up against the wall and push on it. It seems to help. He says, Try this glucosamine. He said, It works like unbelievable. I said, What? What's it called? Glucosamine with congroitin. He said it doesn't work right away. And what happens is, is these little spongy things between our vertebrae start to compress, and this glucosamine re- reinvigorates it, so it brings it back to normal and brings the uh the flexibility back in the spine. So I'm back on glucosamine with congroitin, but I'm still looking for a chiropractor. I've now been uh through a couple since since uh my guy passed, bless his soul, Loris, uh, to try and find somebody who knows how to put a rib back in place, but just ain't happening quite yet.
Markets, Chaga Tea, And A Giveaway
SPEAKER_09Now, as I mentioned before, anybody shows up to any of the events I'm doing. So let me see. Uh Thursdays, I'm uh Wilson Fields in Lindsay, Saturday for the month of June. Um I'll be at the downtown across from the right at the between the armories and the police station. There's a big event there every Saturday. We're there from 7 till 1. Thursdays, uh Wilson Fields is 10 till 3. And the last Saturday or last Sunday of the month, I'm at Millbrook at the school there, the public school, which uh we did a podcast with. Thanks, Wilma. Uh Wilma uh set that up and we enjoy doing that. And not only that, but uh on Tuesdays I'm down at Hallibart on Hallibarton from Tentil II. And anybody shows up at any one of those events, mentions Gunnar's name. Just come up to me, and I will give you a free package of Chaga tea. And I have to tell you, the new turmeric ginger black pepper chagga, of course, it all has Chagga, is going over with leaps and bounds. I can't keep it in stock enough, and people are just loving it. It's got the great taste, and it's a really nice drink. Now, we're working on seeing about it being a cold drink, but it's a hot drink, it has been, and uh the everybody's just loving it. Of course, turmeric has some additional properties, but you need the black pepper to activate it. So anybody mentions it, come on down. We will give you a free bag of tea. I'll find out which ones, because if you show up too late in the day and I haven't got any turmeric one, I'm not giving you that. But if I've got the regular or the green or the chai or the or the mint or the morning glory, which is my favorite, which is roasted dandelion root, roasted chicory root and chaga. And quite frankly, I use that to, when these events are over, my my sample one, my container, what I use is I use that as my water to make my coffee with in the morning. And this morning I had a, I call it morning glory, which is a roasted dandelion root, roasted chicory root and chaga, as the water for my coffee in an espresso machine, and it makes it just mellows it out very nice because as I've mentioned before, Chag is alkaline coffee is acidic, so it neutralizes a lot of the acids. But I've been trying
Why Aggregate Matters Everywhere
SPEAKER_09to get this organization on for now, for today's guest. And I worked with them when I was minister, they're a great organization, and they contribute marvelously to the economy. People have no idea of how all the infrastructure takes place. Like Garrett works in in Rebar, which is concrete, and guess what they use in concrete? A lot of what we're going to talk about today on the program and kind of give you some insight about what takes place in that industry. And we're welcoming the executive director for the Ontario Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association, Sharon Armstrong. Welcome to the program, Sharon.
SPEAKER_06Well, thank you for having me. That was quite an interesting intro you gave there.
SPEAKER_09Well, everybody likes to hear about that. And and I know I've got some fans, uh, they they they love to hear about Gunner and about uh Garrett, what's going on. And so he's uh now on, he's taken some downtime while he's on with the baby, and he'll be going back to to work in a couple weeks. But yeah, the adventures of Gunner and all that takes place. So people appreciate that. Yeah. That's terrific. Yeah, so Sharon, tell us, okay, so you're the executive director. Tell us what explain what the industry is or what the stone, sand, and gravel industry is.
SPEAKER_06Sure. Well, stone, sand, and gravel is the basic material, the raw material that really goes into constructing everything in terms of infrastructure that you see in and around you. So let's take uh walking your dog, for example, since it's um the seems a good theme. Um so when you're out walking the dog, you're walking on a sidewalk, which is uh essentially made from uh stone, sand, and gravel. You're walking on the road. Um, you're going to um maybe you're gonna pass a lamppost. Um that's also made out of stone, sand, and gravel. Obviously, your house, schools, hospitals, roads, really everything in our modern world starts with stone, sand, and gravel. And it's um it's interesting because it's one of those things that you don't really think about. Uh nobody stops to think about how was that made? Um, did you know how that was made? So it's uh we I like to call it a natural resource that's hiding in plain sight. It's right, it's right around us all the time, and it's it's ubiquitous, and it's really important to how we live our modern life.
SPEAKER_09Absolutely. And and I got to tell you that um a lot of people don't understand. I mean, when I was minister, I had these these chronic uh individuals who just went on and on and on and dragged on about uh they're gonna expand the gravel pit in the area and and and I don't want that, and we're gonna start a petition and we're gonna protest it and on and on and on. And so I'd send them a note. I said, okay. So then I would calculate the distance from the next pit because there was expansion going on in the roads. Okay. And so the next pit would be, I think it was 65 kilometers away in that particular instance, between 62 and 65. I said, okay, so what you want to do is you want to increase the traffic flow from now those trucks will have to come 62 or 65 kilometers one way. So now you're putting 130 extra kilometers on of driving time on the roads rather than allowing that pit in that area to expand and reduce the amount of driving time and things that uh happen with the with uh the trucks. And so then they start to sink back and said, Oh, I never thought about it that way. So so what happened? So, okay, so explain kind of like um Sharon, let's talk about um so we'll start with uh road building, for example. So,
How Roads Really Get Built
SPEAKER_09what kind of material sand and gravel goes in when they and and road building, are you familiar with uh the bases and how they're based on a 20-year lifespan?
SPEAKER_06Yep. So um if you think about a road, and and you know what what's interesting about a road is if you look at a cross-section of a road today and you look at a cross-section of a Roman road uh 2,000 years ago, yeah, they're not that different or as different as you might think. So basically the foundation of a road is made with uh gravel, and it's uh all different sizes of gravel that are mixed together. And the reason um that they're all different sizes is that with the compression, the weight on the road, it naturally forms like a strong bond. So the sand gets in the nooks and crannies between the larger pieces of gravel, um, that type of thing. So you're creating that sub-layer with a very strong bond. Right. And then on top of that, you're putting um uh a different kind of aggregate um that uh allows uh water to pass through so that you don't have any issues or you have fewer issues in Ontario with the whole freeze thaw cycle, um, so that you're you're not you know uh creating as few cracks and potholes as possible. And then of course there's the asphalt. And asphalt also um basically is made with aggregate. So in nearly every component of that road building, you're looking at some component of stone, sand, and gravel. Um and even nowadays, we're moving a little bit more sometimes into concrete roads, like if you think of the 407. And that, of course, also is made with um cement, which is made with aggregate, and the concrete is also made with aggregate. So again, it's it's sort of one of those things that nearly everything you touch or anything you see, there's aggregate behind there.
SPEAKER_09Right. So just for our listeners that that don't understand, so aggregate would would essentially be stone um and gravel and sand.
SPEAKER_06Yep. So one of the things we talk about is we say, okay, what's the difference between stone, sand, and gravel? Yep. And really they're the they're exactly the same thing. The only difference between sand and gravel, for example, is size. A sand particle is uh mineral that is uh uh a specific size. Uh gravel is
Pits, Quarries, And Material Quality
SPEAKER_06um uh simply a rock that's a little bit bigger. When we talk about stone, we're usually talking about uh crush stone, and that comes from bedrock. Um, so when you hear about pits and quarries, for example, a lot of people don't understand uh the difference between a pit and a quarry. So a pit is where sand and gravel comes from. Okay, and that's loose material. So typically the way that that's extracted is with um a front-end loader and it's excavated, and then um uh it could be washed um uh to get rid of uh fine materials and then sorted into different sizes. With bedrock, that's a quarry, and you have to blast that material off the face of the of the rock. Right. And then that also is crushed and sorted into different sizes and then used in various things. And um uh, you know, it's um uh it's interesting that you never thought, I never thought looking at stone, sand, and gravel at the complexity that would be there. Um, but really it's about geology and it's about the fact that not all stone, sand, and gravel is the same. So when you think about the sea and tower, um that's built, that cement um was built with uh very um particular specifications for uh the cement and the and uh what was used in the concrete in order to make sure that that sea and tower lasts you know over a hundred years. Right um, you don't need as high quality for that sub-base for a road that we were talking about. Right. So different qualities, different uses, um, different recipes um for how you use stone, sand, and gravel.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I remember the road industry coming in when I was um the junior minister of transportation, and they they were trying to explain that um, and I I really didn't understand it at the time, and that's one of the reasons that we're bringing it on the podcast, is because I don't think a lot of people do, is most roads are built with a 20-year construction lifespan, where the the industry was trying to come forward and say, look, if we go to a 40-year um lifespan cycle, it uh will last a lot longer. And and of course, but the cost is that much more in order to do that. But when you go to a 40-year, it just means deeper, um deeper, so your your beds are much deeper and your rock is much more concentrated so that it lasts longer. I don't I I'm not I'm hypothizing here, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I don't know the specifications um uh in terms of road building that way, but the concept is something that we absolutely still talk about today. And even uh we talk about it with bridges. And you know, a classic example is we look at the Gardner Expressway, yeah, um, which is for those of you um around the world that are listening, think of a um in uh middle of the city expressway um with on-ramps and it's elevated, and um uh often um low bid uh uh tendering is done so that when um a contract is awarded, it goes to the lowest bidder. There's a lot of people that use the Gardener's Expressway as an example of that wasn't maybe built with the best quality aggregate that it could have been built with. If someone had said, hey, let's take, let's not go with the lowest bid, let's go with the best quality and make sure that that concrete has a longer lifespan than what's currently happening. So that's a good example of, you know, literally, unfortunately in Toronto, we have had parts of the gardener falling down into traffic. Um, and we don't want that. We want it to be built with the best possible quality material that there is.
SPEAKER_09So I understand. So uh when they um come to a uh I guess let's talk about the different grades of gravel first. If so, you've got, I guess the the lowest would be called what, pit run?
SPEAKER_06Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_09Okay, so pit run, what would you get in a pit run? And and uh today's pricing, um, I imagine it varies depending on where you are and shipping costs. And of course the price of fuel will increase that quite a bit. But um so pit run would be your basic. And what is in pit run gravel?
SPEAKER_06Um it's um a little bit of a mixture of uh everything, um, because again, uh that's what I was talking about that um you want to make sure that uh that bonds together um as as readily as possible. Right. And so it um uh uh it you know it's all different kinds of size and s and uh shapes and material so that it creates a good sub base.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, so essentially you can get rocks the size of your fist and that sort of area in a mixture of everything, right?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, uh probably not that big, um depending on your fist.
SPEAKER_09I guess it depends on the pits that I'm dealing with because they've been selling me pit run that are had lots of stuff the size of my fist in them. Okay, so from pit run, what would be the next grade up from that? And percentage-wise, uh say uh the next grade up would be what would it be?
SPEAKER_06Um so uh um I'll be honest, we're I'm not a road builder.
SPEAKER_08Okay.
SPEAKER_06Um so so this is a level of uh technicality that uh sort of goes beyond my uh my ability to answer with any authority. But you know, basically the the uh the rougher the material is at the bottom, yeah, and then um uh the you know finer material is at the top.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, and so as you get more of the finer material, um the cost would increase percentage-wise, roughly as you pay for more, right? Because Pit Run used to be pretty cheap. That's why I was running with Pit Run to put a base down for the driveway when I was building my camp. Now, three-quarter wash essentially it goes through a machine uh that that crushes the gravel, so you get about three-quarters of an inch stone, correct? Yep. Yep and then they wash it to get rid of all the the uh the the other materials in it, so it's pretty clean.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, they call it the fines.
SPEAKER_09Okay. So where would they utilize three-quarter wash regularly?
SPEAKER_06Um so um uh that again, because it's uh washed material, yeah, it's uh a higher quality because um each of the municipalities has different. Different specifications for the material that they use. So that could go in. It's the same as we were talking about with the gardener. Sidewalks are the same. There's different qualities and different specifications that you can use to ensure that a sidewalk will last longer.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. Yeah, so I know when we were building our place for the basement, when I finally poured the basement, we had the sand down and then we put uh three-quarter wash uh down. And uh um well we actually had three-quarter wash and then sand, uh, because I put I it's all rigged for in-floor heating. And then uh when they when I got the uh the the concrete for it, it actually um had this pea-size gravel in it so it could be pumped by a pump truck. Uh-huh. Yeah, so that way because uh the the larger gravel inside won't pump down through a pump truck, so they had to use pea-size gravel inside the the mixture of the concrete to make sure it could be pumped. So you know you have to pay a pumper truck to come in and do all the rest of it. But yeah, it uh it was it was very interesting. And and then when you see like hospitals or old schools and things like that, um they would polish those first levels off to give that stone finish, because uh once you get past the top concrete, it it comes up and it looks like a stone finish, which is kind of nice to see. But uh w we tried to do that in the basement because my wife Diane thought it would be a great and wonderful thing. And
Transport, Emissions, And NIMBY Pushback
SPEAKER_09I went and got uh made arrangements to get a special grinding machine to get down to that peak gravel. Um and that's when you have nice colored all these red little uh stones, granite, and things like that.
SPEAKER_06But um it just Yeah, and that's different minerals in the rock. So that's yeah, it's it's uh especially in Ontario, it can be very interesting because we have some lovely pink shades and um you know some beautiful stone here, especially um any rock that comes out of the Muskokas.
SPEAKER_09Right. So and I know the neighbor, he was complaining that uh well he had to spend uh all kind of money to bring in uh crushed gravel to fix the road, and it was granite, what he tells us. Is that normal? Yes. Yeah, so but uh so he whined and complained uh that everybody should chip in. But uh he didn't go to mention the fact that it was his trucks that destroyed the road that needed it uh repaired, because we are uh uh you know cottage roads and things like that. So exactly. Oh, everybody should chip in. Yeah, but your guys are the ones that wrecked it, not us. We stayed off it and didn't uh dig the ruts. But anyway, so different things like crushed gravel, it just depends on what's available in the area, right?
SPEAKER_06Absolutely. Yeah. Um, getting back to what you were saying, though, before about travel, uh, which is interesting, we have a um saying that we use in the gravel industry that's really that simple. Don't make gravel travel. Um, because um, you know, it is true that the trucks, gravel trucks are the focal point of frustration really for the industry, um, because it's what you see on the highway. Um, but most people don't make that connection between the gravel truck that they see, you know, on the way to the cottage or or what have you, and the road they're driving on, um, the school their kids go to, um the hospital where their kids were born. Um, but it is absolutely true what you're saying, that the the most expensive part of um the aggregate process and the cost of gravel is that transportation, right? Both in terms of uh economics, um, but also in terms of the environment, um, in terms of uh greenhouse gas emissions. So the the most environmentally friendly thing you can be doing when you're thinking about aggregate is to make sure that the gravel sites are as close to where the product is needed as possible. And so that's why with with community groups that are upset about um having uh local sand and gravel pits near them, um I always try to to show them the Ministry of Natural Resources map of pits and quarries and and help them get familiar with the fact that pits and quarries are everywhere, places you didn't know that they were. Yep. Precisely because they have to be close um to market, close to where they're needed. So yeah, it's um it's it's making sure that we have that balance so that we are being environmentally smart.
SPEAKER_09Well, exactly. And I know I think the one I was talking about was up near Buckhorn, uh, in that area up there where they they were wanting to extend uh expand the tonnage being allowed to extract it from the from the um I'm pretty sure it was a um a pit. And uh there there was, you know, there was all this this hue and cry from basically, like you said, cottagers who don't understand until I pointed out, look, you're going to increase substantially by six uh by 130 kilometers the amount of truck time on the road and the distance from the wear and tear on the roads by doing what you're suggesting. And and people some people, uh some people you no matter what you say, they're not gonna listen. But some people there are numbers out there that uh reasonab, yeah, that makes more sense. So uh Sharon, kind of uh let's uh give us an understanding of basically how do you start what's the process for starting a a new uh gravel or sand pit?
Licensing A New Pit Step By Step
SPEAKER_06Sure. Um well the very first thing is that gravel, stone sand and gravel only exists where nature put it. Um so um not to go too far back, but 10,000 years ago, um the glaciers receded, and um uh that's where a lot of the sand and and gravel is. And then of course the bedrock um is um um part of the earth. And so mapping would be done um to see where the reserves are um because you you can't you know excavate. Some people just say, well, why don't you just go down the road, you know, 50 miles or something? Well, there may not be a deposit there. So um studies are done uh once a site is located. Um an aggregate producer would do some um studies to look at the viability. Um, and then they would start the licensing process with the Ministry of Natural Resources. And as part of that, there's a whole bunch of studies that are done. So there's hydrogeology studies to understand the water movement um in the area. There's um uh air and noise studies that would look at, well, how far away are the closest neighbors? Um, what um what's the topography that will impact, you know, um uh air and noise and and what have you? Um there's natural heritage features. Um, you know, are there any endangered species? Are there, you know, are there uh things that we have to think about how we're gonna mitigate and you know, all of those kinds of things. Um so those studies and all of that stuff probably takes about two years in order to because the hydrogeology, for example, um to look at water, you have to be monitoring for at least a year.
SPEAKER_09Oh yeah, I guess you'd have to to know if it's a dry season or exactly a wet season to know water courses and things like that, right?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, the high point, the low point, those kinds of things. So all while all the studies are being done at the same time, um uh it's a two, it's a parallel process. Um uh there's municipal zoning that has to happen as well. So the producer would be working with the municipality um to look at um what that land is currently zoned for. And um typically uh some municipalities are pre-zoned for um uh aggregate extraction, but not very many. Usually you would need to go through the planning process as well. And on both sides, the licensing side and the municipal side, there would be public consultation and having conversations with people. Um, there would be a website that would be developed that you know, where people could go and look at what the plans were. Um, a rehabilitation plan has to be part of the licensing process. So even that early before anything has happened, they would already be talking about okay, what is this gonna look like after extraction is done. And then a third part is uh often not everywhere in Ontario, but in many places in Ontario, um there would also be the duty to consult with First Nations, right? Um would also be taking place. So it's kind of in in some ways a three a three-prong um licensing approach. So looking down the road a bit, so those studies are done, um, um there will be usually always people who will have some concerns and what have you. So the the person um has to work through all of those concerns. Yeah, um, and then eventually um a license is issued by the Ministry of Natural Resources and the zoning uh by the by the municipality. If there's any concerns that can't be rectified, it goes to the Ontario Land Tribunal. Okay. Um and um and uh the issues are heard there. So the process, all of that process um that I've just described in what uh 60 seconds in reality um can take up to um 10, 11, 12 years, um depending on what the concerns are and how much back and forth there is and whether it goes to the land tribunal. Um so it's a very involved long process.
SPEAKER_09Um
Why Approvals Can Take A Decade
SPEAKER_09yeah, so if you want to build a road, you and you need the the aggregate to build it, you've got to try and plan that far in advance. Or do do aggregate pits get the licensing just in case that something comes up in that area and not utilize it until it's required?
SPEAKER_06That's exactly right. Okay. And the only thing I would change in what you said, they're not so much just in case.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_06Um land stewards and and land managers on a long-term scale are our uh aggregate producers. They have to be looking at a time horizon of 10, 15, 20 years down the road. So they're when they're thinking about inventory, like if you're you know in retail and you're thinking about, you know, how much stock do I need in order to meet the demand, um, it's it's more complicated in this industry because that demand um is not the demand for tomorrow, because it takes, let's say it takes 10 years to get a new license. You have to be thinking, where's the growth, where's the development, what are the infrastructure requirements in Ontario, what are the population shifts, um, what areas are growing, and you know, what are the predictions for um where we're gonna need aggregate in the future? So it's it is very complex in terms of understanding um where aggregate sites are going to be needed.
SPEAKER_09So, how long would a license be good for, Sharon?
SPEAKER_06So there's no term limit on a license. Um so it's until um the resource in the ground is extracted. Okay. And so typically um it they vary like a sand or gravel um pit, which like a small sand and gravel pit could be as little, it could be as little as two, three years if they're very small, but very often with a sand and gravel pit, it would be in the range of 10 years-ish. Right. Um, but you could go up all the way to a big quarry. Um, uh the Queenston quarry operated for more than a hundred years. Right. Um, so you it it really does um you know uh bridge the range. We we talk about an interim land use, um, but we we recognize that that interim period can be a lot of years.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. Um now, so if for example, um when uh when I was growing up in the 70s, we spent a couple of years living just north of a place called Newtonville, which is east of Toronto, about an hour and a half, two hours. And on the property, there was uh 35, 34 and a half acres, there was a huge sand pit there. Now, if we wanted to use that sand out of our own pit for our own uses, do we need a license to extract it from our own property to use to build the the driveway that we are using?
SPEAKER_06There are in um in the Aggregate Resources Act, um uh there are uh I think it's called, you would know better than me. I think it's called as of as of rule or uh something to that effect, that there are um exceptions um to getting a license that um certain farmers and certain landowners can use as long as it doesn't leave the property and as long as they're not selling it.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_06Um but I would advise anybody who's thinking about doing that just to check and make sure that you're doing it correctly. Um but there but there are little carves carve-outs in the regulation um for personal uh personal use.
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Rehabilitation Into Parks And Fish Sites
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SPEAKER_09And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, we're here in Lindsay with Stu. Stu, you've got a little bit of a story to tell us about the Chaga cream. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00I do. I absolutely love the Chaga cream. I ran out of it over the winter when I was away. I've had a biggest break of eczema, and all the creams that the doctors have given me have done nothing. I started using this last Saturday. I got it from you at the market, and it's gone. In what a week? In a week. And my daughter has had has two little cups to ears. They have very long ears and they crack. Every month that the vet's getting creams. Yep. And last year I told her about this. She used it on the dogs for a week. They have no problems anymore. And she told the vet he's using it too. Oh, that's great. So it is an awesome product. I highly recommend it.
SPEAKER_09Thank you very much, too. We really appreciate that. Have a great day. Thank you. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code CANAPY. C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Thanks for listening. Back to the episode. So uh one of the other things then, um, Sharon was uh as I recall, um my grade eight teacher, Mr. Pratt, uh and I was um I put it, I was streamed in a science uh stream class because we used to do streaming at that time, so all the kids that uh the teachers perceived have a uh interest in science would be uh placed in one classroom where I was placed. And we did a a bus tour talking about showing about drumlins and all that sort of thing. So things like eskers. Are you familiar with an escher?
SPEAKER_06Not not uh probably well enough to talk talk about.
SPEAKER_09Okay, so I was just wondering is um eskers were basically like these, uh they would be like um uh what would be the best way to describe it as I guess a a rail line the way they build it up. And it's a natural thing that the the uh glaciers left. And I always wondered if all the eskers were actually uh gravel deposits, because what what was explained to us is the the glacier receded deposits left kind of these like it almost looks like a a mini hill or a roadway that was built up, but it's actually an escher. And I always wondered if they were all areas where sand and depos uh sand or gravel deposits were. But if you not uh not familiar with it or never asked that question, I guess you'd never need to know. Yeah, and some of the other stuff that was interesting as well is I recall, and you mentioned about endangered species, there was one of the roadways being built back in the 90s when all of a sudden a uh an endangered or a species of salamander, it was called a Jefferson salamander, showed up and it was uh brought up to the attention because this Jefferson salamander was right in the middle of a a roadway, and it just happened to be presented to the government by people who were opposed to the roadway, and they brought this Jefferson salamander, and not saying it was right, it was wrong, it actually did or didn't happen, but certainly seems uh coincidental that the people who are opposed to it find a Jefferson salamander on a on a major infrastructure project that didn't um they didn't really want. But there's a lot of things that the these gravel pits are utilized for. I I believe it was, and I'm not sure if you're familiar, during the Pan Am Games, did not an old gravel pit was used for uh was there a water skiing competition, I recall?
SPEAKER_06I think that's right. Yeah. Um I don't actually remember which site it was. And there there are a couple of rehabilitated quarries, though, that um are recreational areas like water parks, and um the most famous one is at St. Mary's, um uh where that's a big water park. Um, but they're definitely I've heard of water skiing um in old quarries and um uh lots of different recreational uses. Go-karting is another one.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um and of course, golf courses.
SPEAKER_09Well, yeah, my favorite golf course. Uh I um I have a group of four of us that every Wednesday uh we try to do it at three o'clock. Um and we that's where we golf is uh on a rehabilitated golf course that uh reapillate pit, a pit that was made into a golf course, and it's a great walk. Uh I got about 7,500 steps in because I'm I'm walking the whole thing and just loving it. Yeah. So yeah, so there's a lot of beneficial things, but um now if uh
Land Ownership, Royalties, And The Levy
SPEAKER_09and I had Ange who Angelo from the Fish in Canada, the uh outdoor radio journal. Um he he brought uh he wondered in how could it take place where I think it was in Florida he was saying that they use old gravel pits as kind of fishing resorts. And they would bring in special species of fish that people could catch these trophy fish on these areas, and they had cottages like now they have on golf courses where you stay and play, and you get this little mini cottage, and they were doing the same thing in in Florida, and he wanted to know what could be done, like some stuff like that up here in Ontario, or why they were looking at that, because apparently it was a huge revenue generator for those those places where people wanted to go catch a trophy, I don't know, a uh what was it, a peacock bass, I think was the one he was referring to, where they get quite large and and it's very confined, so it doesn't get into the other water courses. But uh is there those options available or does that have to be done at the start before a pit gets dug?
SPEAKER_06So it's it's very interesting um that um you bring that up as an example because that's something that's um starting to take place a little bit more, not quite what you're talking about, um, but we have a couple of sites now where the producer has put in um trout um uh race uh raceways um to uh um spawn trout and to um sell it. So it's a commercial um um farming business um for trout. And um and uh the benefits of that are are huge because the um putting the trout in in um the water introduces, of course, nutrients into the water, and it's really helped um that site come back um to a biodiversity um in a quicker way. Um the thing that people don't think about with a quarry is that the the water that comes back into a quarry after the extraction happens, the problem with that water isn't that it's in any way contaminated, it's exactly the opposite. It's that Is very, very clean. Right. And so for life to exist, you need bacteria, you need the nutrients, you need um, you know, that that you know, fecal matter really um to be um um propagating the growth. So the the raceways, the trout way raceways have worked really, really well. So it is though, um, when you get your gravel license, you have to put that rehabilitation plan in at the beginning.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_06And so it can sometimes be a big issue to change that plan. And that's one of the things we're working with the ministry about because sometimes, let's say you did that rehab plan 30 years ago, right? There are these new innovations and new uses that the municipality might be also very happy with. Um, so we want to make it easier to change the rehabilitation plan if everybody is in agreement that that's a better end use for the site. Um, so that is one of the things we're working on. Now I haven't heard about um populating it with um with fish for fishing, but I do know that um in those ponds um there have other fish that have been introduced and um people do fish in those ponds.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I recall uh it was a gravel pit that was used to a trout farm in Timmins, and uh people could go out there and and and actually just outside of Timmins and fish for trout in in this, and you when you go by it just looks like a gravel gravel pit, to be honest. But uh all the signs were trout fishing. And they would charge people to go in and catch trout there, and actually it was quite popular because you knew that there was fish in there and they could catch them, and they were all, like you said, uh the water was very clean, so it was a very good environment. So, yeah, Ann should mention that. So if a municipality was uh supportive of that, that could smooth things along to potentially create these kind of fishing resorts uh from old gravel pits.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, absolutely. And as as I mentioned, there is a company actively looking at uh trying to put more of this aquaculture, they call it, uh, into place. Um so that to me, what you're talking about really is just an extension on that idea.
SPEAKER_09So, Sharon, so these gravel pits then, um the company that does the extraction, would they own the land and then they sell the land off afterwards and or is it rehabilitated and then sold, or is it crown that they access uh the aggregate out of, or is it a combination of both? It's it's all of the above.
SPEAKER_06Um so there would be if I had land that um had aggregate on it, but I didn't want to become an aggregate producer, I could basically lease that land to a producer who would go through the licensing process. Um, they would own the license, um, they would extract, and I would negotiate a royalty with them. Okay. Um and then at the end of the extraction, they would rehabilitate because that's part of the license that they have to do. Once the rehabilitation is done to the satisfaction of the ministry, then the license is surrendered and that would be the end of the relationship.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_06In other situations, they buy the land, in other situations, they use crown land, and then they pay um a royalty to the government uh for the use of that land.
SPEAKER_09So when they extract the um say uh we'll we'll stick with crown to start. So when they extract uh the tonnage, and I think that's basically how they determine, or is it is it by volume or is it by weight?
SPEAKER_01Um by by weight.
SPEAKER_09Okay. Okay. So um when they extract a tonnage, for what fees get paid to that for and where do those fees go? Is that for the rehabilitation?
SPEAKER_06So um there is in Ontario there's something called the aggregate levy. Um and for every ton that's extracted, it's about 23, 24 cents a ton right now. Okay. Um uh that increases by uh CPI every year, so it's indexed to um to inflation. And um the biggest part of that goes to the municipality um with the understanding that there is wear and tear on roads and what have you, and um that the municipality uses that money in order for road maintenance um in order to um uh to compensate for the wear and tear on the roads. Some of that money goes to the upper tier municipality um for basically the same reason. And then um a small portion of it goes to what's called uh the map program, which is the management of um abandon aggregate properties or program. Right. And um that's to rehabilitate sites that are still maybe not rehabilitated before any of the strong legislation that currently exists. So it's sites before the 1970s, and there's there's still about um, I can't remember the the latest number, but it's in and around um 500 sites um that uh could be rehabilitated. And um the the map program is managed by an arm's length organization called the Ontario Aggregate Resources Corporation, and they go in and and rehabilitate those old sites. We prefer to call them legacy sites rather than abandoned because some of them it wasn't necessary that they were abandoned. That was the current practice in the 1950s.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_06That you just you you extracted the site by a highway, you built the highway, and then you moved on. So obviously that doesn't happen anymore, but the industry is still paying um a fee in order to clean those old sites up and and by and large they happen.
SPEAKER_09Okay. So now you mentioned 23 cents a ton. Um
Half-Load Season And Truck Realities
SPEAKER_09how much aggregate uh would go in an average truck? Any idea?
SPEAKER_06Um there's different sizes of trucks. So um 22 tons in a small dump truck up to about 40 tons in a yeah, it could be a little bit more. They have you know the the the big trucks and then they they could have a pup behind them. Yeah. Um so it can go up to um I think 60 tons if it's a a larger truck with a pup behind it.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, a pup is kind of that uh looks like a trailer they're pulling behind, right? Just so our listeners understand. Yeah. Um so the um the gravel and then the rehabilitation goes through and they rehabilitate. Um that's some of the reasons now. The how does the industry deal with what's called the half-load season?
SPEAKER_06Um exactly that way. Okay.
SPEAKER_09You you uh try not to do as much work because it's uh it's less cost effective than a section. Essentially, well, tell our listeners what a half-load season is.
SPEAKER_06So um in Ontario, because of the the freeze thaw and in lots of communities um around the world that would have that um winter season, uh, the roads are particularly susceptible to damage um at you know at certain times of the year. And so that's called the half-load season, where the weight uh on trucks is reduced because they want to minim, you know, mitigate uh the damage or minimize the damage as much as possible. So um the operators would still operate because you know the the construction season is uh uh often now all year round. So it's not that they would um stop, they would continue to meet uh demand as as much as possible. Um and um, you know, they would continue to operate.
SPEAKER_09Right. Um how do they determine the allowable amount of material to be extracted out of a um a pit?
SPEAKER_06So that's part of the studies that are done. Right. Um so and and uh there's a number of different things that go into that. That's part of the licensing process where um uh there would be traffic studies and truck studies, and the amount, the annual amount to be extracted uh could be determined based on the truck volume and and traffic that's agreed to with the municipality. Right. Um so it could be a function of that. Um, but if um it's maybe further away from any kind of um area where there's people, um, there may not be any limit. Some sites um have unlimited licenses where they can um take out as much as they could sell, but typically that's what it's based on. Um a producer's not going to extract aggregate for the sake of extracting aggregate. They're only going to do it to meet the job orders that they have. Um they stockpile a little bit at the end of the year so that they can start the season up um with some material ready, but they're not creating, you know, big, huge uh reserves of um material because it just takes up too much space and it's too expensive to handle every time you handle it. Um, obviously, because of the weight, it's very, very costly.
SPEAKER_09Right.
Inspectors, Audits, And Water Table Fears
SPEAKER_09So, Sharon, who kind of monitors to make sure that uh the the pits and the truckers are all following the rules and regs? What are the uh bodies that would uh watch and check to make sure everybody's following the rules?
SPEAKER_06So there's a couple of um ways that that's done. The ministry itself has inspectors. Um in recent years, they have increased the number of inspectors um by um uh quite a lot. They hired in the last couple of years, they've hired uh nearly 40 new inspectors. Um, part of that came out of the Auditor General's report that said that there weren't enough inspectors. Industry agreed, we had been saying that for years because we want our sites inspected. We want the public to feel comfortable uh that we're doing the right thing and that we're following all the rules. Um that's part of it. Um another part of it is that the tonnage is audited by that corporation I talked about before, that's an Arms Links corporation, the um Ontario Resources Aggregate Resources Corporation. And um so they do an audit for tonnage.
SPEAKER_09So yeah, so there's a lot of um inspections that take place. And when you say the ministry, you mean the Ministry of Natural Resources hired new inspectors? That's correct. Right. And so, but MTO also does truck inspections to make sure that the load restrictions and all that are complied with as well, right?
SPEAKER_06Right. Uh on the on the trucking side, it's the Highway Traffic Act. Um, and there's uh uh a portion of the Highway Traffic Act that's called the Weights and Measures Act. Right.
SPEAKER_09So um and the other thing would be I recall uh there was one group up near Del Rymple Lake that didn't want the quarry to go down farther because it was going to break through the uh um the I guess it was I'm not sure what the water table? Yes. Um are you familiar? Do you get that sort of thing as well?
SPEAKER_06And what it's looked at into those sort of situations so um both pits and quarries um can be licensed to go below the water table. Um it is a um higher uh requirement in terms of studies and hydrogeol hydrogeol, oh my goodness, hydrogeologic studies that are uh that are done. Um and uh so that can take longer to to make sure that those studies um that they're really understanding uh the aquifers and um the uh groundwater and what's going on with the groundwater. But it can be done very successfully and has been done very successfully hundreds of times um across uh the province. And um operators are very sophisticated in terms of dealing with water management in today's world, and that can be done very successfully. Very often it makes local residents more nervous, and so producers try to spend, you know, a lot of time with them under you know, helping them to understand um the water management and the sophistication of um you know that whole process so that they, you know, will feel comfortable that their wells aren't gonna go dry and um you know the the quality of the water um and the quantity of water shouldn't be affected at all.
SPEAKER_09Right. Right. So the industry is very highly regulated and and very monitored extensively, and we want to make sure that uh it works in the best interest of the environment as well as industry and and moving forward with infrastructure and all the things that are required in today's society. What
Future Supply And Faster Decision Making
SPEAKER_09sort of changes are coming about or what's happening in the industry that needs to be looked at or could be dealt with? You mentioned about uh possibly looking at uh some of the ways to to change the desired usage as you mean we I mentioned about the fishing, potential fishing resorts opportunity. But what are some of the other things happening in the industry that the public you know should be new uh uh aware of or that you're looking for changes with?
SPEAKER_06I think with aggregate, it it's um interesting because the government of Ontario right now is it very much has a build agenda, and um, you know, they're looking at spending, you know, $200 billion plus uh over the next um uh 10, 20 years. And in order to meet that demand for infrastructure, we'll need aggregate. And um the biggest issue facing the aggregate industry is the level of new licenses that are approved that are close to those areas of development as possible. Um, if you look at the number of licenses that have finished, um, that are completed, um, we're not keeping pace with um like putting new licenses in place in order to um replace the licenses that that have finished all of their material. Right. And so that's an issue is is getting to license a little bit more quickly than we are now, making sure obviously that you know all of those studies and concerns and everything that we talked about are taken care of, but doing it in a more timely fashion.
SPEAKER_09Right. So currently, like you said, uh what was it, 10, 11 years potentially, 10, 11, 12 years before you can get a pit operational to go through all everything that's uh needed to do?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's not always, but it's not uncommon.
SPEAKER_09Right. And so is are there other jurisdictions that have samples of more streamlined efficiencies? Because uh believe me, in that time period, uh you can go through three different councils um during election periods or more. Uh in each council uh and I have to tell you, I I I remember one MPP when I was minister. Um I had him on Ted. I won't say his last name. But anyways, I said, Ted, what do you want me to do about this uh gravel pit out your way? He said, uh Jerry, we need the jobs. But you realize I have to fight you on this for public perception. I said, I know that. I said, but that's why I'm giving you the heads up. What do you want me to do? And so I proceeded with uh uh taking and moving forward, and I think it was out the Halton way. And lo and behold, the gravel pit got its uh extension and uh more work, but uh the local MPP uh was loud and very vocal, that uh not in my backyard sort of thing with a NIMBY. So we see a lot of different things, but 10 and 12 years is a long time. So it's the other streamlined.
SPEAKER_06Well, what you suggest uh is very interesting, and it is something that we've talked about because we do hear that at the municipal level very frequently. That you know, being a municipal counselor is a tough job. Um, you know, you have to go to the grocery store on Saturday in your community, and you know, there there's people that have very strong views and that they're around you all the time. So it is it is not uncommon to hear exactly what you just heard, where people say to us, we totally appreciate um, you know, that this um is part of the economy and an important part of the economy, but I can't publicly support it. So one of the things um that that we're not talking about doing this right now, but it it is an interesting philosophical idea that um maybe um um the decision, um, the the municipal uh portion of it is looked at a little bit. Um, how can we streamline that a little bit and how can we make it a little bit easier for counselors not to maybe have to make a decision? Um, I don't quite know what that looks like. Maybe it's going directly to the OLT. Um sorry, the Ontario Land Tribunal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um, because a lot of when municipalities are not um uh are not supportive, that is what happens anyway. Um and so basically the the local counselor will, you know, I call it kicking the can down the road because they don't want to make a decision um in public. And so they just either uh they don't make a decision and it goes to the land tribunal because they've taken too long, and there's a provision that if they if they fail to decide, that's a reason the producer can take it to the land tribunal. Um so one solution might be just to take it to the land tribunal right at the beginning, but I'm not sure that's that's an expensive proposition, also.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_06Um so I think there's some work, some public policy work that has to be done um to recognize some of these realities that you know, if if you have local politicians that are just basically um not making a decision for any other reason other than you know, political like that, right? Um that's a a good uh uh pain point to look at um, you know, a better process has to be put in place there.
SPEAKER_09So, Sharon, uh what's a reasonable amount of time for um a municipality to deal with this before the the I guess the the license application uh decides, okay, we've got to take this to the uh uh Ontario Land Tribunal.
SPEAKER_06Um there is a prescribed timeline. I I can't unfortunately remember what it is off the top of my head. Um, but um uh uh it it is Is that something like a year, 90 days, or it it would be longer than that. It would probably be in the in the realm of two years. Oh, okay. Um before um, you know, a producer can say, look, this is just taking too long. Um we have to we have to move it forward.
SPEAKER_09Right. So I think the um in the political cycles then um for the industry, where the I'm sure that uh you being the executive director would realize this that election year, leading up to an election year, you don't want a controversy before a municipality. Right after the election, though, uh is the time to get things done. Because uh if it's a year to go to the Ontario Land Tribunal, then you've got uh three years of uh the municipality realizing, and believe me, I saw lots of stuff where, you know, we're gonna protest and we're stopping this, and uh, we're not this is not happening, and on and on and on. And then it gets done, and they come back and they go, Wow, that was the best thing that ever happened.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_09You know, so for that cycle, yeah. Next year, being a municipal election, this year would be the year that a lot of these licenses need to have the municipalities lined up for their decision makings.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. One of the things that that I've an observation that I've made, I've been with um the Ontario Stone Sand and Gravel Association for just over 10 years now. And an observation that I've made is that there's a lot of media coverage and a lot of uh opposition to new pits and expansions um of existing pits. But if you look at the media coverage, there's very little, if any, discussion about existing pits. Because what happens is once the the you know, pit or quarry is put in place, um the you know, the proponents I think work really hard with their neighbors in order to be good neighbors and uh for the pit to operate um smoothly. They they deal with complaints if they're made, um, and they they try to resolve and try to work um with their neighbors. So it is it is interesting that the noise comes from um the pits and quarries that don't even exist yet.
SPEAKER_09Well, I I have to tell you, um Sharon, uh when I was minister, I was eastern Ontario, down uh I won't say exactly where, but it was the just say uh Bellville, Belleville North, Belleville Way. And there was a um and I always pick up the small town papers to find out what's going on. And I I was I read this article on one paper in the town, and it was really slamming um the government for this new gravel pit uh that were coming in that was gonna because of the construction expansion in the area. And so I stopped in uh at the newspaper and I said, Look, how come you you did this article? And they said, Oh, well, actually, um we didn't do the article. It was submitted by somebody who wrote it and asked us to print it, so we printed it for them. And it made it look the way it came out, you'd almost think it was the paper's um editorial policy for the area. And he and they said, No, but from realistically, we need the the jobs that go with the pit that's gonna come forward. I said, Well, why don't you say that? I said, Well, we're a newspaper, we gotta be equal everywhere. And um, because not only that, but there are the the industry is also advertising in the paper and and showing exactly what the good things that are taking place. So sometimes these things, uh I was quite surprised to learn that this paper, and they said, you know, if you want to send us something countering that, I'd be more than happy to print it.
SPEAKER_06Which was we try as an association, um, in terms of helping the public understand what's going on, we do try to do that as often as possible. So if we see some coverage that is is one sided or you know, raising things that um we think are not correct. Correct. You know, we'll we'll try to do a letter to the editor and that type of thing. And they're usually pretty good with running those.
SPEAKER_09But realistically, your resources are pretty limited. I mean, uh you can't do 2,000 newspapers and monitor them province-wide to find out what's being said about your industry unless it's brought to your attention, right? Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, so that's where the public get involved and those that are supporting it. Or and and I recall, now this wasn't your industry, it was quite frankly a it was a lumber industry. And and what happened was uh somebody within the ministry when I was minister made an arbitrary decision on on their own without asking the deputy minister myself, it was a good thing. And they allowed the the fiber from one mill to be shipped to another. And so essentially they closed down the mill in one town, and the mayor called me and said, I want you to stop this and shut down that mill and stop that from taking place right now, and they can't have our fiber from this area. I said, Okay. I said to the mayor, I said, but this is what's gonna happen. I said, I can stop that from going there. Um I have no ability to to tell a corporation, okay, you will open this mill. That's not something I can do, but I can stop the control of the Ontario forest fiber from leaving one area to go to another. I said, but remember this, your worship, the mayor. I said, when that takes place, the people who are cutting those trees that are living in your community will now lose their jobs. And I said, not only that, but the people who are hauling all those, the truckers who are hauling all that stuff up to that other mill, are gonna lose their jobs. And the people who are repairing those trucks and all the infrastructure and all the the companies that supply the harvesters and all that, they're gonna be shut down as well. Oh, don't do that, don't do that. So I said, you know, we can try to work through this, but you know, I can do what you want, but that's what's gonna be your results. They never actually thought about all the impact, and it's the same thing uh with your industry that this uh newspaper was, yeah, we need the jobs and everything else, but they weren't willing to take a real stand against it uh at that time, at least an editorial. Uh but if they would be hell happy if somebody else came forward and took on that fight for them.
SPEAKER_06Yep. No, it's uh uh unfortunately um uh I have seen that myself.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, but uh that's the way our society works, and uh a great uh thing that we have the ability for free speech and uh peaceful protests and all the other things that take place. But you know, your industry is very needed, it's very uh uh necessary. We've gone through here. We talk about all the infrastructure that takes place, whether it's pouring basements at uh cottages or building cottage roads or or major highways and all the other things and all the other infrastructure, whether it's the CN Tower or the schools and the hospitals, you're very dependent on your industry.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and um, you know, again, I urge people to look around and think about all the things um that are made with stone, sand, and gravel. Um, you know, things even
Where To Learn More Online
SPEAKER_06like the windows, even your glasses that you have on your face, and for all the ladies listening, aggregates in your lipstick and your and your makeup.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, yeah, people don't realize that. Well, Sharon, I appreciate you taking the time to inform us about your industry. Is there is there anything else in the industry that I've missed that you think should be coming forward?
SPEAKER_06Uh no, I just I absolutely urge people if they have any concerns. We have a great website called gravelfacts.ca if you want to learn more about the industry, um some videos on there, some other resources, and um um yeah, absolutely a pleasure to talk to anybody if they have concerns about the industry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Well, thank you very much, and that's how they reach out and find out about more about yourself and your industry as for the site you just said. And if you want to mention it again, please do.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's gravelfacts.ca.
SPEAKER_09All right. Thank you very much, Sharon. I really appreciate that.
SPEAKER_06Well, thank you, Jerry. It was a pleasure speaking with you.
SPEAKER_09Uh all the best, and just uh learning more about what's happening out there under the canopy and how everything comes together. Thanks, Sharon.
SPEAKER_06Perfect.
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SPEAKER_13How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, Steve Nidzwicky, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, Diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people. Share their stories of our trials, tribulations, and inspirations. Learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.
SPEAKER_11Meanwhile, we're sitting there bobbing along, trying to figure out how to catch a bass. And we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing show.
SPEAKER_05My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that's might be more efficient than it was punching.
SPEAKER_10You so confidently you said, Hey Pat, have you ever eaten a drunk?
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