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Under the Canopy
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, former Minister of Natural Resources, Jerry Ouellette takes you along on the journey to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and Under The Canopy.
Under the Canopy
Episode 150: How Ontario Manages Forests And Herbicide Use
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A spray plane over a cutover can spark instant outrage, but the real story sits in the details: what’s being sprayed, why it’s used, what gets protected, and what trade-offs we’re actually making. We start with a listener-driven question on Chaga tea extraction temperature and how to navigate conflicting claims you’ll see online, including why some articles warn against heat while many studies extract at boiling.
Then I’m joined by Asad, a professional forester working in Ontario, for a grounded tour of modern sustainable forest management. We talk about how forest management plans get built, what silviculture really means, and why different regions use different harvesting systems, from clearcutting that imitates natural fire disturbance in the boreal to selection harvesting that mirrors small-gap wind and disease events in the Great Lakes St Lawrence forest.
From there, we take on glyphosate and herbicide spraying head-on: why foresters use it for vegetation management, what happens to plants like wild blueberries, how buffers and targeting reduce exposure, and what we still don’t know, including questions listeners raise about wildlife, fungal communities, and even ticks. We also compare Ontario’s approach with Quebec’s herbicide ban on public forests, and we close by clarifying a concept that helps cut through the noise: hazard versus risk, and why different agencies can sound like they’re contradicting each other.
If you care about forestry, conservation, climate change, hunting and foraging, or just want clearer thinking around glyphosate in Canadian forests, this one is for you. Subscribe, share it with a friend who loves the outdoors, and leave a review with the biggest question you still have after listening.
Outdoor Journal Radio Trailer
SPEAKER_03Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Vallosa. And I'm people. Now you might know us as the host of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. It's right every Thursday, and it's gonna be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm. Now what are we gonna talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing.
SPEAKER_00I knew exactly where those fish were going to be if they catch them and they were easy to catch.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors.
SPEAKER_10From athletes, all the other guys who go golfing, me and Garcie Turkey, and all the Russians would go fishing.
SPEAKER_12And now that we're looking for single anything, it's the perfect transmission environment to find the fish.
SPEAKER_13If any game isn't cooked properly, you will taste it.
SPEAKER_03And whoever else will pick up the phone. Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.
SPEAKER_11Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Under The Canopy Sets The Stage
SPEAKER_08As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Olette, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of this strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people, that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully, we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy.
Chaga Tea Temperature Question
SPEAKER_08Well, thanks to all our listeners and uh really appreciate you taking the time to send us some questions and queries. I know I'll go over the one again that uh the recent one was about the um the extraction temperature for Chaga tea. In that the Chaga, well, even uh Vitality magazine, and I know I had to get in touch with the publisher because when the magazine came out with the Chaga article, the picture was actually of a Burl, it wasn't a Chaga. So I got in touch with the publisher and I said, Hey, I said, nice article, you did a good job, but it's not a picture of a a um Chaga, it's actually a Burl. And she said, Oh, uh well, um the uh can you send us a picture and we'll put it in our site and uh but we can't change the magazine, obviously. That's fine, it doesn't matter. I just want to make sure you knew that. She said, Well, we weren't sure when we did it, but that's okay. But uh that was one of the questions from our listeners um in regards to uh the Chaga and the temperature, and in the magazine, the article specifically states not to take Chaga above 140 degrees Fahrenheit because you might, and in the article it says it may destroy some of the beneficial aspects. And I have said this before, but I've got over a thousand studies worldwide on Chaga, and a lot of them for an extraction point do 220 in order to extract the material from water, do it at a boiling point, and it does not uh take away from the the research that is being done. So I don't know if there's any specific research that shows that any of the properties are killed at boiling point, but then again, there are a significant number of research articles that extract JAG at a boiling point. But as always, we thank our Canadian listeners and for the questions like that. We try to get the answers on as much as we can. And uh, if anybody has any suggestions, we'd be more than happy to. We did our last one was a suggestion regarding the Ontario Stone Sound and Gravel Association. So we got that out for people because you asked, we try to do what we can to get it out. And not only that, but we appreciate all our listeners around the world, whether it's it's uh the Caribbean, the States, um again through Canada, uh Switzerland, uh England, where uh Saudi Arabia, Ghana as well. But if you have any questions, let us know.
Dogs, Leashes, And Daily Life
SPEAKER_08Now, uh usual stuff. So Benny is done now. Uh Benny's my oldest son's dog, the cockpoo. But it's it's kind of funny. And like I said, our other son, who's still looking for a place and is staying with us, has his dog. And every time I take Gunner out, he knows the boundary lines. It's as if he's got that invisible fence thing. And he does not go onto the road, he doesn't cross the road, he doesn't he just goes to the to the hedge where all the dogs mark their territory on our property, and the neighborhoods call it the what do they call it? Oh yeah. Greg calls it the rabbit hotel because there's a it's a large juniper flat bush that uh rabbit, there's a I'd say there's a rabbit horn in there. That's what they call a um like a tunnels and a whole bunch. It looks like a rabbit horn. And but Belle, Bell takes off and across the road, there's somebody down the road, oh, next couple houses. And if there's cars coming, it's nothing but problematic. So I always put Belle on a leash. Took her out this morning and yanked my rib out of place. So I was a hurting puppy trying to figure out how to get this rib back in. And like I said before, I take this massager, do my back a bit, and who's sitting beside me with the droopy eyes is my chocolate lab gunner waiting for his turn of the massager. And he just closes his eyes like it's it's seventh heaven, waiting for his massage. Not only that, but the same thing, how many dogs do you know actually like getting their teeth brushed? So I'll ask him, okay, you want a treat? He knows what treat means. That means we go in and take our chaga. I put chaga in a capsule for him with a little bit of peanut butter, and you want to get your teeth brushed, and he rushes into the bathroom. But it's like I always say before, I have to close the door when I go to the bathroom because he'll rush in and stand between me and this thing and looks up at me, meaning he wants his teeth brush. But it's it's good and he's my best bud. So the other thing is it's really funny when you get three dogs there. So I peel apples and I take the core, just the top of the core, the good part, and I'll throw it to Gunner. Now, the other two being Benny, my son's kakapoo, and Bell, my other son's Dob, Doberman, they I'll throw him Benny, the little piece of apple, and it looks at it, spits it out, doesn't look at it, won't do anything with it. You have to hand Belle the food because she won't catch anything. I find that with a log snouted dogs, they don't do very well at catching things they throw them. And but if you hand it to her, she goes to it and she'll consume it. But Benny will not. So I'll throw Gunner, he'll take his, and then Benny sits there and he looks at it, and I say, Here, Gunner, take this. And just like always, Benny rushes over to it, has to eat it no matter what it is, to make sure Gunner and none of the other dogs get it, whether he likes it or not. But that's just dogs and the way they're the way they are and things
Free Tea Offer And Market Stops
SPEAKER_08like that. But as I've said before, if people uh hear this and mention it uh when I'm at any of the events that I'm at, come on up um and let us know. You heard us on the podcast, and I'll give you a free bag of tea. And I'm letting you know right now that at the events I'm going to have a brand new cold brew, an iced jagga tea, that's from all uh indications are quite spectacular. Now, this one's got beetroot in it, and hibiscus, and jaga, and lemon, and it is spectacular as an iced tea. If you want to try it, you come see me at the uh the those locations I meant, which is let's see, so Sunday fourth, the last Sunday of the month in Millbrook, 10 to 1 at the school, Tuesdays, Halliburton, which is 10 till 4 right downtown. And then as well, Thursdays at Wilson Fields, 10 till 3 in Lindsay. Those are the key spots. Although if you check the website, we'll let you know. But we always get some interesting stuff, and I have to tell you, we had another interesting request to talk about something, and we're taking care of that.
Meet Asad The Professional Forester
SPEAKER_08And we're bringing on uh an individual that we've had on before, talking uh with some expertise in the forage sector. Welcome back to the program, Asad.
SPEAKER_07Hi, Jerry. Thanks for having me back.
SPEAKER_08Oh, not a problem. Not a problem. So um just so uh to remind our listeners, uh, tell us a bit about your background, uh, your education and stuff like that, Asad.
SPEAKER_07We'd love to. Uh your dog seems like it would be a great diet. I wish I was on a Chega diet, too.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Well, I had that um naturopathic vect on Dr. Hayat, and um he it's uh all he does is natural medicines for dogs. And Chaga was one of the ones, and of course, it's recognized by Health Canada for dogs, cats, and horses. So we give uh uh gunners is uh the chocolate labs name is official names, Ensign Gunner, but uh he takes Chaga uh once a day and it helps boost uh and regulate the immune system.
SPEAKER_07Lots of great benefits from forests. Yep. So I I'm a professional forester in Ontario, and uh I was born in Pakistan a long time ago, and I moved to Canada when around grade nine. Right. And then I grew up around Toronto, Ajax, Pickering area, and uh I and now I work at around the Perry Sound region, which is about three hours north of Toronto, right we call the Great Lakes St. Lawrence Forest Region. And before that, I was in Hearst, which is about 10 hours north of Toronto, which is uh the Boreal Forest region. Yeah, and Ontario is beautiful, it's large, so I get to it's a blessing to be able to lurk, work, learn, and play in our vast forests.
SPEAKER_08Right. So uh Asad, where did you um I think you have some formal education in forestry as well?
SPEAKER_07That's right. So as I was saying, even when I was young, I was always interested in these creation type stories. And I remember my space science teacher was so passionate about evolution. So I went to school uh at you at the University of Toronto and I studied uh all about biodiversity there, ecology and evolution. And of course, like many of my students there, I was a classic conservationist. I wanted to protect everything.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_07And I remember taking a class on ecological worldviews, and I started debating a bunch of foresters and meeting um building my own worldview, and so I've been on that path since then. And that took me to British Columbia as well to study a master's in professional forestry.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_07And I think it's important if you uh just like being an informed citizen in a democracy, it's important to have an informed ecological worldview, not just to local issues and national issues, but spiritually and the things we get from the poorest, like shaga or other benefits, blueberries and whatnot, and how we even relate to other living beings.
Young Trees And Carbon Uptake
SPEAKER_08Well, yeah, you mentioned Asad about uh the protecting everything, basically, is I think your quote. And when I was a minister, one of the things that I found very interesting was the most carbon-converting years for a tree is the first 15 to 20 years of its life. And I specifically requested that those detailed information just so I could answer questions on guess what, on places like this. Um and it's like a tree compared to a teenager. And I have to tell you, I was with Catherine, which is another chocolate labs owner, um, and uh his and the dog's name's Cooper, and she was talking, she says, you know, I I like our kids are teenagers and they're just like in early 20s, and they're they're uh they could go through 1200 bucks of food a week in groceries alone because they're eating like weeds, and these guys are hockey players. So uh and they played uh some pretty high-level hockey and talkie instructors. So they're going through it, and the reason they're doing that and consuming so much is because of the stage they're at. So their bodies are growing and expanding and utilizing a lot, and it's the same with trees, which I didn't really realize or think about it, that uh that uh in the research that was presented to me was 15 to 20 years, and it was actually uh the most carbon converting tree was a a hybrid poplar aspen. Um I can't remember what the hybrid specific strain was, but that was uh the most carbon converting years. And after that, it doesn't convert as much carbon to oxygen. But it was certainly so a learning understanding for me to know that proper management where you're replacing all these trees we're harvesting, the the forest industry was harvesting, makes a huge difference in climate change and all the other things and converting carbon to oxygen for us.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I think trees are probably the best uh sources of carbon storage I can imagine that we can probably use. So planting trees, as you said, stores a lot of carbon, especially early on as they're growing. And of course, they're great habitat, right? Big forests are such dynamic places. I think people think about forests just as old big trees everywhere, but forests sometimes are young and then sometimes in the middle, and then young forests have different kinds of bird habitats, and old forests have different ones. So you try to create this kind of mosaic, which is very natural to a forest.
SPEAKER_08So for our listeners, here's a here's a note for our listeners
Mycorrhizae And Tree Communication
SPEAKER_08now. Um the secret language of trees is a video. If you haven't seen it, you'll love it. It talks about how trees actually communicate to each other through um mycelium arbuscular. There's there's two types of um um mycelium relationships with different trees, and they actually communicate to each other, and it's really interesting about how the trees communicate and talk to each other. But and I tried to get Susan, the author of it, on the podcast, but I was jumping through hoops left, right, and center, and it was just like, okay, I guess you're not really interested, so I'm not gonna chase after you, but it's a really interesting one that talks about forests and that. And and I have to tell you, I brought this up uh several podcasts ago. I did a live one with students in Millbrook, and I brought up this podcast there and talked about it because we went into the forest and I and I tell the students, I said, now, you see the two trees here, and it was a pretty dense uh cedar forest. Mind you, it wasn't too old. But the stems per hectare were pretty tight. It needs to be thin significantly. But I said, How come there's nothing growing on the ground here? And of course the students are, well, there was there was one student, Elliot, there, who got it pretty quick. Uh, and actually one female, I don't remember her name, that's because no light was coming through because the canopy was so tight that there was no secondary, all there was was primary canopy growth, um, and no secondary or any other growth after that or ground cover. So there's there's nothing there for feed for for, well, grouse or deer or rabbits or anything else in that area, because it's the forest needs to be managed. It will manage on its own, but when humans get involved, we we do these things that we think are gonna take care of better. And there's a lot of dead stems in there that if they when they start to fall over, it'll open up the canopy a bit and allow more light in. But proper management gives us uh very active and living forests that have all the the benefits for a lot of different life, not just humans.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Uh no, I was just thinking about this the the Suzanne Samar. She was in my professors at UBC. She was one of my teachers.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And I I really got to know her research very well. And and I I understand she's super busy with her movies because her research as such has been groundbreaking in the past decade. Yeah. As you said, understanding how all these connections happen underneath the forest. I think people used to think about forests very differently before they would think about how it's all just competition, as you said, for light. And as the trees grow, they'll go grow tall, they shade out all the trees, the vegetation underneath. But uh this uh this new research, or or I guess uh now part of forestry now is being used in all kinds of forest management plans and and uh in BC.
SPEAKER_08Well, yeah, it's it's very significant because um uh there's and I've heard different things, although more and more research needs to be done because this arbuscular essentially what happens is the roots of the tree get surrounded, and there's two types, one that just surrounds the root, and one of the other ones penetrates the root. And then the roots of that that um mushroom, that fungus actually, uh will go through the ground and connect to other trees, and they the trees actually communicate to each other through this system, and they will pass nutrients if need be and things like that. And it's very, very interesting. But also and it some of the things that they go into, and oh, there was a book, um what was it called? I think it's called The Trees Can Talk. It's out of uh it talks about trees in Africa whereby um one certain type of tree, when giraffes are in the area, because giraffes are tall and they are browsers eating trees, when they start to consume branches off a tree, it releases um, I'm not sure if it's a pheromone or what it is into the uh into the air that notifies the other same trees of the same species to release this thing into its leaves that deter giraffes from eating it because they don't like it. So these trees were talking to each other, and there's there's so many different things that are coming forward about how they communicate with each other and things like that that we just naturally assumed was didn't happen. But surprise, surprise, yeah, there's all things, and as they say, the great circle of life is certainly interesting out there.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, it makes complete sense to me. If you're standing still in a place, you you don't have much ways to communicate with a tree across uh across the forest. And if a disease is coming in, you want you want to make sure that everybody's prepared. And if one tree is uh going to die, maybe you want to give some of your resources, maybe send some carbon that way or some phosphorus or nitrogen. That'd be a great benefit to the whole forest.
SPEAKER_08Well, you know, and it and while we're on the air here, I'm I'm even wondering if that book has even looked at the fact that uh um the arbuscular uh relationship could be taking place there. That's how the information is being transmitted by those trees to other trees, or is it something as they maybe are just assuming that it's being sent through the air, released into the air to send out okay. Uh and in Susan's research, I think it was a uh it might have been a tomato plant, I think, in the uh that's right. The secret language of trees that releases something that stops bugs from eating the plant. But could be the same. Uh but that was uh, we believe through the ground with her research, as opposed to the air, as indicated from the uh the research that was I saw from this from Africa.
SPEAKER_07She I think she tested it on she used carbon isotopes. So basically, I think I remember correctly the tomato plants. She put a bag around one of the plants and then injected it with these isotopes, and then that isotope, lo and behold, comes out the other side. Yes. And there's no other place where it could pick up that isotope other than the where you put it. So we know that these uh these networks are being used to transfer nutrients. But I you're right, I think more research should be should be done to figuring out exactly what is being transferred and how exactly.
SPEAKER_08And so then there was uh test once because not all trees have a arbuscular relationship. It eludes me. Um if you've taken Susan's courses, maybe you remember the other one, the other relationship, it's arbuscular and I can't recall at the moment, but I do remember these two types.
SPEAKER_07These mycorrhizae relationships underneath are usually symbiotic. So if I remember her research was focused on Douglas, fir, and aspen, maybe maybe well it was birch trees and or wait, and the cedar tree was the test tree uh to make sure that um it wasn't just uh coincidence that it was very specific.
SPEAKER_08Anyways, yeah, it's it's uh very good and very interesting uh research. But one of the things that I I thought would be very interesting was um why not uh build that uh um arbuscular relationship in fruit trees in orchards so that if you can reduce the amount of spray. Now I've had uh it was B, I think it was BC. Um it was a researcher out of uh college or university in BC that had a forest, uh apple orchard that was completely pesticide free. And they only used um a natural remedies to uh to protect it against um bugs and insects and things like that. And I'm wondering if uh um that the aarbuscular relationship in apple orchards were communicating to each other would send the same notes or protect each other or feed them with nutrients in apple orchards in order to produce better crops.
SPEAKER_07That would be a good thought. I I wonder as well. But the this use of herbicide in agriculture I know is is a huge thing. And I and I remind I know they've also used modified crops as well, where these crops are resistant to some of these herbicide sprays and well, so they can they can spray more basically.
SPEAKER_08Right. Yeah. Yeah. So uh I think one's what is it? Um uh ecto, um ectomy uh ectorizal and arbuscular are the two, right? Ectorizal mysosine, right? Right is the other one that uh I can't remember which one penetrates the roots, and I think our buscular actually penetrates the roots and and the ecto actually just surrounds it and they communicate to each other. But certain trees only do certain types, and other trees do not. So it's not as if, okay, uh arbuscular is in this area, all the trees have it. No. I think it was cedar that actually had uh uh ecto and the the other trees, which uh for some reason I think birch in that particular study I saw that uh communicated to each other and there was no cross-contamination into the cedar, so that way they could verify it wasn't just through the soil.
SPEAKER_07That's right. I th yeah, I think people started thinking that they started calling it the world wood web, and I think people started thinking that many trees were being connected to each other, maybe every tree within a forest. And as you said, right, these relationships are probably evolved over thousands and thousands of years, and yeah, these cooperations have been built maybe to a few species relationships or maybe couple, yeah, and the rest are are going through many other uh different interactions, not not just this cooperation, yeah.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, and I had my um my colleague Pierre on a number of times, who's up uh west of Timmins, and and I can remember him telling me about uh what they used to leave was large trees when they did cuts and they called them he called them seed trees so that they would plant the area with none of the trees of the same similar species because they want to keep uh the species in the area. But I'm not sure if uh if that's not a case of uh leaving what uh Susan called mother trees in other trees, yeah, yeah, to keep those networks going. But that's an interesting topic, and someday I might be able to get Susan on uh to talk about all these things because I find it fascinating.
Ugly Pike Podcast Trailer Break
SPEAKER_06Back in 2016, Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of musky angling education material anywhere in the world.
SPEAKER_05Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.
SPEAKER_06Thus, the Ugly Pike Podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North America.
SPEAKER_05Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike Podcast. Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous fish of 10,000 casts.
SPEAKER_06The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing, it's about creating a tight-knit community of passionate anglers who share the same love for the sport. Through laughter, through camaraderie, and an unwavering spirit of adventure, this podcast will bring people together. Subscribe now and never miss a moment of our angling adventures. Tight lines, everyone. Find UglyPike now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.
Chaga Cream And Psoriasis Testimonial
SPEAKER_09Okay, we're here with Kim from Bob Cajun. And Kim, you had uh a great experience with the Chaga cream. And your grandson, can you tell us about that a bit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so my grandson actually struggles with psoriasis. He's only 16 years old, so of course the self-esteem, right? He doesn't want his face all covered in scales and stuff like that. And I picked him up on on a weekend to come and visit with me, and I had overheard you talking to somebody about psoriasis. So it kind of piqued my interest, and I thought I would ask you about that. And when you explained it to me, I took a container home for him.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01And in one day, he was over the moon happy that his face looked clear and he was and he's gonna be religiously doing it because he's so self-conscious about it.
SPEAKER_09So he tried other things, uh the the through the the medical system and things like that, and they just didn't have any success.
SPEAKER_01Correct. He had a prescription of cream and you know it would sort of dry it up a little bit, but that was the problem, it just dries it up, and then it's flaky on his face, and he doesn't really like that, and it leaves a lot of little red blotchy stuff, right? So after he rubbed that stuff on the chaga stuff, he was his face didn't look so angry, you know, because it's a red, angry sort of look on his face, and it didn't look so angry, it looked soft and and clear. So he was over the moon happy, and so I took him home, and then he messaged me after a couple of days to tell me that he's so so happy that his his skin looks clear.
SPEAKER_09Great, thanks very much, Kim from Bob Cajun. You're welcome. Okay.
Discount Code For Chaga Products
SPEAKER_08If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about, and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code Canopy. C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode.
How Forest Harvest Planning Works
SPEAKER_08I I want to talk about uh okay, so let's talk about harvesting trees. And I think we talked about it a bit in the past. There's a couple of different mosaics, a moose in the caribou mosaic when they harvest. If you want to just explain the typical uh process by for harvesting trees.
SPEAKER_07I I I was thinking about this question as I was speaking last time too, and I I think I should talk about civil culture and all the different things. I think it's a lot more complicated than people realize.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_07And professional forestry has changed a lot since the early European settlement days. Even before the Europeans were here, First Nations like uh Iroquois and Shinabe, uh Algonquins, they were they were practicing forest management with prescribed burning. They would prescribe burn to get bushes for blueberries, they would do selective harvesting for canoe trees, like very much we do today with selection. Um they were they were, I think, I guess we call them nowadays traditional ecological practices nowadays. But so the since the early days, many societies like British and Ireland, all of their forests are gone now. Yeah, as they used to they used to be very forested. And so when early Europeans came here in my area in Perry Sound, we high graded pine, and high grading just means, as you said, taking the best sea trees that we leave today. And you're and what you're doing, if you if you remember from evolution, the principles, if you're taking your best sea trees, your your recruitment ends up not being the best anymore, ends up being the worst.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_07And so across all this time, we were losing much of our forests. And if if I remember correctly, so from 1960 to 1990s, we almost doubled the amount of wood we were getting. So around 10 million cubic meters of wood in the early 1960s, and around the 1990s, we got to about 20 million. So we were we were just taking a bunch of good trees and not really planning for the future. And then around those around that time, we started talking about sustainable forest management and planning for the future. And I always have to say, Minister Bud Wildman, under the Bob Rays government, passed the Canadian Forest Sustainability Act. And I love the first line of this act because I think about this often, which is basically to manage crowned forests to meet social, economic, and environmental needs of present and future generations. And from this simple line, we basically get all of Ontario forest policy. And all all of almost all of Ontario's forests are uh crown public forests. It's a huge area, more than half the province, almost all of the forests. And and so for those areas, we divide them up into little management units, and then we write forest management plans for 10 10-year terms. Right. And this process is long. It takes three years to build a plan. Uh the plan involves like an interdisciplinary planning team. The planning team has biologists, it has forest modelers, it has uh First Nations people. And you the we also have uh there's uh the social aspect of it, if if you recall from that line. So we have local citizens committees as well that are just stakeholders from the forest, also recruited. We gather um background information, what kind of roads, what kind of water crossings, socioeconomic surveys, find out what communities and what cities are in the forest. And then, of course, we do a forest inventory as well, figure out what kind of forest types are in the forest.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And then a plan author who is a professional forester, uh, writes the forest management plan. And how we do the horror harvest. I haven't even gone there yet. It's after all this planning phase, we we also build the so-called silvicultural ground rules, which is basically silviculture is a fancy of saying how we do forests. It's the science of intervening. How do we intervene into a forest? Then how do you grow it, what species to keep, what not to keep, what should we plant, should we keep it natural regeneration or not, what the structure of the forest should be. So you're balancing all these different things, and you build basically a SGR, a silvicultural ground rule for your forest. And you you apply these silvicultural ground rules for when you harvest. And of course, they're specific to your forest type. So, what you would do in the boreal, you wouldn't do, for example, in the Great Lake St. Lawrence. So in the boreal where I was in Hearst, we are imitating large landscape fire disturbances. So, fire, if let's think about the evolutionary history, lightning starts the fire in the scale of, let's say, a hundred or so years every so often.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_07That that fire clears out the whole canopy and it opens up more light to the forest floor, and this promotes light species, like light species that like full light, like jackpine and black spruce. But of course, other vegetation comes along the with it too, alder and blueberries. But remember, with fire, seed bank gets affected. So after a fire, much of the only the fire-resistant species end up uh winning, for lack of a better word. And so the the pine cones, because of the sap, they they melt off and the seeds come in, and then you get a jackpine or a black spruce forest.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_07And so part of the SGR packages, as I said, these different silviculture systems that we're trying to imitate for natural disturbances. So in the boreal, we clear cut, and but in the absence of a fire, we control how would we control the vegetation that's coming after the fact? So the SGR lists out a sets of alternative tools or practices we can use. I think we can do, of course, we can do a prescribed burn again, we can do herbicide spraying, we can do manual brushing, we can do a site preparation beforehand or after the fact. And then once that happens, once the seedling is established, we can set up uh how should this how big the seedling should be, then we can consider it if we were to go. We've done our SGR prescription and we can say we have met our uh prescription, and then we'll come back later and take a look if it's actually free to grow. And in the southern forest, if the disturbances for or in Paris on where I am, it's the disturbances are not so large scale, they're more in pockets. So you have a group of trees dying from, let's say, recently there was last year a big uh snowstorm, they kill a bunch of trees in a circle or a wind throw event, some of the trees get blown down, or insects, some of the trees get infected by disease, beach varies and whatnot. So we we try to imitate that through selection. So you wouldn't do clear-cut in a selection silviculture system, you wouldn't, or vice versa, uh, because you want to maintain those mid-shade tolerant species like maples and oaks that prefer partial shade. So we go in, we take a few trees out, one or two, and that opens up the canopy, and then the trees underneath, uh, maybe a maple sapling or an oak sapling, um, then as we say, releases into the opening.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. So a lot of them work as what we used to call nurse trees, right? That's right. Yeah. So they're and uh provide partial shade uh because some trees they don't want uh you can't. And I had a friend, he couldn't figure out why he planted this tree right in his front yard. He said, lots of light, everything else is not going anywhere. I said, Well, this is probably the wrong environment, and that's the reason why. He said, What do you mean? He said, that specific species needs nurse trees in order to provide shade for that tree until it reaches a point um in its growth where it can just kind of expand into it. But at that time, uh he couldn't figure out why, and that was the main reason why.
SPEAKER_07That's exactly right. I think my one of my neighbors also planted a maple tree, and he was also wondering the same thing. And uh, to all this, all these SGRs are developed over a long time, and we as we get to understand what's been happening here before, we're basically imitating what nature's doing and hoping that the next jet of the next set of forests that that grow there are are there just like they are today.
SPEAKER_08Yes.
SPEAKER_07And when we're making forest management plans, so we're basically balancing all these different values. Uh, and we can't, of course, impact the entire forest. We're only going in where we go and harvest trees. So if we have uh uh if we're harvesting a high-quality red pine stand, and we want to make sure that the the same opportunity we got we have today, the future people have the same opportunity. And so they were thinking about economics as well, and we're thinking about the ecological value too. So if that pine forest doesn't come back as the pine forest comes as a mixed wood, it completely changes the ecology of the place. And so maybe we want to put a uh a management objective in the forest management plan that we want to bring back more pine on the forest through our harvesting practices, right? So these SGRs are developed, uh, taking account all these different objectives, balancing them out, not just timber values or profit. And for example, if you're in the boreal, and if you convert a black spruce or a jackpine forest to a mixed wood, a caribou might not prefer to go in that stand. It might prefer, as you said, the mosaic uh strategy that we do. And so it's it's a mix of uh balancing force management objectives, and but now with our spatial modeling that we're doing in Ontario, this has become a very computerized process with lots of mathematical and uh different objectives we put in, which decides balancing all these different things. Well, exactly.
SPEAKER_08AI is gonna replace us all, I don't think so. But we talked about some of the things there, and I know that that um the community forest, West Wind was one of the first ones where it was a community forest that had all that input on managing the forest. And I know when Pierre and I, Pierre handled the forestry file for me when I was minister, uh, we tried in a number of locations, particularly up in the Tamogami-Temiskamy area, to see about establishing community forests there so that the community had a say. And quite frankly, what that was designed so that um if our forests are gonna be harvested, then they can be processed in those areas and support the community locally. Well, it took uh and Pierre brings it up, he says, Look, look, look, is it 20 years later there or 20 24 years later, they're they're doing what we we initiated way back then. We planted the seed and just like a tree had bloomed into it, and now it's happening up that way. But there's so many different aspects. And I know um when uh Mike Harris was in, he brought in the lands for life uh program, which it is it it protected what the largest sector ever done in the province of Ontario. And of course, I don't think the forestry sector was overly happy because of all the the lands that were now taken away from the ability to harvest.
What Counts As Protected Land
SPEAKER_08Oh and do you know, O'Curl, too, according to the World Wildlife Fund, what the definition of a protected area is aside. Most people don't, so I don't I don't hold against you if you don't know.
SPEAKER_07I I would guess it's some some area, 50 hectares or something of a protected space. I I wonder what they think is uh a real protected space. I don't know.
SPEAKER_08No, so the the guidelines specifically say um no um mining taking place, and that's um from core to sky. So from the the straight from the top, you can't go underneath it to to get to it to to protect it, it's right to the core. Um no new hydro development, so no new dams, and no forestry practices taking place on it. So most people don't know this, but Algonquin Park is where Westwin is, and Algonquin was actually first established as a park to make sure that the forestry industry survived on it. And forestry takes place on there in a very heavily managed way. So officially it's not recognized as a protected space under the World Uh Wildlife Guidelines. I'm pretty sure it's World Wildlife, under the World Guidelines of Protected Space, because forest managing and forest harvesting takes place in Algonquin Park, so it's not officially a protected area. And most did not know that, nor did I, till I became minister.
SPEAKER_07I I think it's I think it's very interesting that development, yes, mining and hydro and forestry is developed, but forestry is a very different kind of development than these other industries. We're we're trying to manage a forest landscape, I said, to these different objectives. And as you said, Algonquin forests is one of the probably the most southern forest-producing uh management units that we have. And people are playing and working in that forest while forestry is happening at the same time.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_07And it's uh I think it's a it's a Ontario has shown, in my opinion, that it's a successful practice that can be done sustainably.
SPEAKER_08Exactly. But according to some some others standards, it can't be c officially classified as protected space because um forest management or logging takes place on the property, which is hard to believe. And I I recall there was a reporter uh from uh C from City TV wanted to meet with me to talk about the Gordon Cousins Forest. Um are you familiar with the Gordon Cousins Assad?
SPEAKER_07Yes, that's right. I I worked adjacent to that forest on the Hearst Forest. So I'm very clear.
SPEAKER_08The Gordon Cousins, uh, he was claiming that uh there were all these groups where it was absolutely disgusting what was happening there, and nothing was taking place, and on and on and on. And I couldn't say to him that the next month it was becoming certified forests because of the forest practices in there. And I can't remember uh because there's a number of organizations worldwide that are recognized for a certified forest to make sure it's managed with proper practices and everything else. And I remember um him going on on air after our interview and and him saying, Well, I don't know what uh this minister's smoking, but I gotta tell you, he doesn't know anything about the Gordon Cousins Forwards Forest. And a month later I said, uh uh, excuse me, um what was I saying about that forest now? And now what do you have to say? Do you think he would uh retract it on on uh the City TV? It didn't happen at all. But uh certainly it was interesting to see some of the mindset of these individuals. And like you said, it's extremely complex. It's not it's not a simple thing of of just cut a tree, plant a tree, and that. I mean, most people don't know that uh you can't fertilize uh uh crown land uh forests, right?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I I I haven't seen that practice done on in Ontario. In BC, I heard about that, but not very much in Ontario.
SPEAKER_08No, I think.
SPEAKER_07But I think for forestry, yeah. I I think in forestry it's hard to I think the cutting of trees is emotionally. I think people see it and I think it makes sense why, especially that a reporter, I've had similar experiences. But in for in the Gordon Cousins, the forest stewardship uh comms, most of Ontario forests are certified by third party certification. They're they're they they have no interest in or stake in the local industry. They're they're just following a mandate that they have independently.
SPEAKER_08So and I mean to tell our listeners what.
Forest Certification And Audit Standards
SPEAKER_08Does a certified forest mean? What does that mean?
SPEAKER_07So uh as if as I was saying, during the 1990s, these third-party certifiers, if people recall, there was the safe coffee trade, free trade, these kind of certification systems started coming up, which was basically a set of principles or or standards they wanted to maintain. And if you wanted a certain product, you placed a stamp or a sticker on it, telling your consumers that whatever wherever this product is coming from is meeting the standard. So FSC forest certification uh standard is one of many. There's others, SFI, which is an American-based one. Um, there's also a Canadian national one as well. And all these standards are basically talking about many different aspects, not just sustainable forest management. I've been on many of these audit trips where they talk to operators and ask them what they know about species at risk and how they account for them. They talk about worker safety, they talk about um herbicide use, how much and if they should be reducing it. They look look at forest regeneration, civil cultural practices, all kinds of different things. It's more than 25 indicators. I can't remember the exact number. It's it's a long list. And these forest companies pay an yearly fee, uh $70,000, $8,000 to maintain the standard. So they're paying out of pocket to tell their consumers that that their product comes or their that the wood that they're selling comes from a place that's managed sustainably and have meets all these criteria. And they come back and maybe every three years, every five years, various different kinds of audits. And of course, that's nice thing to say about the auto system we do internally as well. That's part of our CFSA, but I'm sure we'll talk about that as well.
SPEAKER_08Sure. Yeah. So yeah, so uh people get a better understanding. It's not just somebody coming along and providing a rubber stamp sort of thing, and without having some criteria that's very significant. And these certified forests, yes, a lot of retailers now preferred uh certified lumber, which means it comes in a sustainably uh managed forest in the best interest of, as we say, everybody. So, but it's not I I brought you on to talk about something that takes place now.
Why Forestry Uses Herbicides
SPEAKER_08So and I see signs out there, I see uh caution signs and stuff like that. So in areas where they're cutting trees and then they want to promote growth, they spray the areas with something that deters, I think it's broadleaf plants. Explain that process and and what that's all about. And what are they spraying?
SPEAKER_07Uh okay, so these are I talked about this a little bit before, these so-called herbicides. I am most familiar with glyphosate, but there's many others, triclopeer, and herbicides gets used in many different fields. We talked a little bit about agriculture, and um, and there's my one of my friends works in ecological restoration with one of the municipalities. And uh I was just out on a hike the other day and I saw phragmites uh everywhere, invasive phragmites.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_07And uh which is I understand is also controlled with glyphosate. So the these herbicides are tools basically, just like in many other fields and forestry too, it's a vegetation management tool. And the reason we use it, as you as you said, is after harvest, we're trying to control these competing vegetation. So things like uh alder, raspberry, aspen, birch. Um, so these after harvest, as the light conditions open up, they sprout right back up. And if you have planted seedlings, for example, let's say you planted a jackpine seedling, it's gonna get very quickly over top. And if it gets shaded, it's not gonna be becoming the new forest that we had planned to be. And I talked about all these ecological things and economic benefits that we're hoping for after we come back. And if our forest doesn't um doesn't come back to that like we prescribed, where then we're not actually doing our forest management uh planning like we had planned. And I talked about the alternatives as well. The we can, of course, do just uh natural regeneration and not rely on planting and just don't spray. That's one of the we all sometimes we do that because we find oh, the site is not rich enough for the vegetation to grow. We sometimes do mechanical site prep, we drive a dozer and we break ups of the soil. We do prescribe fire, but you can imagine with public concern and insurance, that's becoming more and more expensive. Right. Uh, we do mechanical brush saws. So people go in with uh backpacks and a little brush saw and they go in and cut the vegetation manually. They might come back a couple of times. Uh, we might do a larger planting stock, so other jurisdictions, there are different techniques that we can use. Uh so it's it's it's it's one of many tools in our foresters toolbox to make sure that our our silviculture practices are following the trajectory that we have planned on.
SPEAKER_08Right. So the glyphosate, as you said, so they come in and they spray it and it kills off all the stuff except for the the target species, like you mentioned, jackpine.
SPEAKER_07That's right, or black spruce, or if you're down south, the red pine, yeah.
Glyphosate, Blueberries, And Breakdown
SPEAKER_08And so, what is the impact on the environment when you spray that there? So a lot of new cut areas, and I've picked blueberries and in areas where there's new cutovers and things like that, wild blueberries, and wild blueberries in the north is you know, you spent time in Hearst, I'm sure you see blueberry stands everywhere when you're driving. Delicious.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_08And you you're seeing these wild blueberries when they're in season everywhere. And of course, bears and everything else feed on these wild blueberries. And if they don't have a good blueberry season in some areas, then bears become a problem. But what is the impact on things like glyphosate on things like uh blueberries?
SPEAKER_07So most definitely they impact blueberries because that's what we're trying to do. So glyphosate is uh it basically acts on this enzyme called EPSPS, the fancy phosphate type enzyme. And this enzyme is part of this pathway that plants, fungi, and some microorganisms they use to produce some important amino acids. But humans, we get mammals and humans, a bunch of other mammals, we we don't have this pathway. So we don't get directly impacted by glyphosate. And so we be we get these amino acids by eating plants and uh other fungi.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_07And so the one reason that glyphosate is so effective as a herbicide, as you said, it goes through the plant, through the plant uh surface, the tissue, and it goes through the entire shoots, the roots. So it doesn't just impact the leaf or burn the leaf off, it goes through all through the root system. And that's what we want because we don't want the blueberry that's over top of it coming back the next day or excuse me, the the next year and overtopping your seedling that you have planted. And so, as you said, whenever we do spray on a certain area, um, we're of course making sure all sorts of different buffers we're putting on waterways, we're making sure that we're targeting exactly the spot we want to. There's expert pilots that, and we have they have this amazing uh drop technology that makes a fine mist or before we might have used bigger droplets. So it's directly impacting the spot we want. And it's so it where the spot gets sprayed on, it changes the local vegetation there. It kills all the all, the birch, the raspberry, the aspen, and the blueberries. And when that happens locally, animals cannot cannot go there and eat because there's no more food there. But this is only temporary, and that happens all the time as well. Vegetation sometimes in certain spots doesn't grow as well, in other spots it does. But of course, we're not spraying the whole forest, we're only spraying a small portion of the forest, and glyphosate binds pretty strongly to soil particles. So when it's and is broken down mostly by these by these soil microbes as well. And it takes maybe it depends, it's lots lots of different factors, but once it it once it does get broken down into phosphorus and other harmless uh elements, it takes a while. But when it does, uh it gets taken up by the plants again into their into their normal environment. But I should say in BC, I remember reading a study that uh blueberries were holding on to glyphosate into their roots and shoots much longer after several years, two or five, even seven years. But it all depends on dose and is that even harmful to humans? And that's a much more complicated question.
SPEAKER_08Right. So how long does it stay in the environment then? Uh to so these blueberries are killed off, and that's only one example of what we're talking about the raspberry canes and all that. Um, how long does it stay around? So when they come back up, because so they kill it off for a short period of time, and then the we'll say jackpine gets its uh chance to to get above everything else, and then they don't need to spray it anymore. And then no.
SPEAKER_07Okay. They we we come in the first time, we spray, and then we see if uh the second time around is is our seedling doing better than we thought. And if it's still a lot of competition, we might come back a second time and spray again. And usually that that's the the most extent I've seen. I've never seen a third, but there's so-called Cadillac spray packages as well, where you might do if if the site is really competitive, you might want to spray a couple of times. But after that, we're we're done. We we leave the forest to grow, and it it would so it would take a few days to a few weeks. It it depends a lot on where the site is, how much sunlight is getting to this uh to the area, how much microbial activity it there is, how cold the environment is, and and it I think it turns out maybe a few days to a few weeks, right? But um, as I said, it could still maintain within the shoots uh and the roots if it's in this in the soil itself. But um you I don't think those would be significant amounts as as we know in in toxicology and stuff, it's all about dose and and acceptable limits. Uh in agriculture, we have this a certain kind of standard as well.
SPEAKER_08So the microbial aspects when it gets into the soil, is it killing off um mycological uh um plants activity? Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I've I've yeah, I've heard similar stuff, yes.
SPEAKER_08I don't know. And and so so does uh is it like uh because I can recall uh one farmer uh he was spraying his his corn crops with atrazine, which they're not using anymore, from what I understand, although I haven't verified that. Uh but after you spray a field with atrazine, uh nothing else but corn can grow on it for five years. What's the impact of the things that we're spraying in in these communities in places like Northern Ontario or wherever it's getting done?
SPEAKER_07We're we're not doing it as intensively as agriculture is, um, that's for sure. Yeah. And and the other thing is that because glyphosate is used so extensively, and the amount we're finding in significant amounts is in even in blueberries that we're finding, it's not significant enough that it's impacting vegetation on a long term. We're finding that these vegetations come back right after a few years. Okay. So those that soil doesn't have those residues anymore.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_07And and they're broken down into these smaller components that I talk about from glyphosate all the way to phosphorus and other different things.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_07And it's all about detectable residues, and I don't think we're finding that over the long term.
SPEAKER_08Okay. So um what's the impact on, say, because I know that uh the person there's a person leading a charge to stop the spray, uh, and he's using um moose as his example that it's impacting the moose population. Are you finding things like that as being uh uh legitimate?
SPEAKER_07I would I would say I would say not because moose populations rely on much larger landscape challenges than I would say the amount of spray that we do on such a small scale on uh in our professional forest uh aspect. Um moose uh travel large distances, and the populations that our the biologists are looking at, they seem to be stable. And as I said, the only aspect that's impacted is the food. And I often hear that moose are are getting diseases or different things by eating things. I think that's definitely not true. As I said, the we the mammals don't have this enzyme, so they're not impacted directly. Right. But the the they're probably having the same impact that we do when we eat agriculture based on on glyphosate. So maybe our gut bacteria or the some of the mic the the we have in our guts use the same kind of enzyme that plants do.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_07But those are temporary changes that you can probably recover from within a a week or a month.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, because they they say when you're taking antibiotics, it kills the good bacteria as well as the bad. And I'm wondering the same thing about the mycological impacts on the soil about killing uh any of the fungi that might be growing in there and some of the impacts on there.
SPEAKER_07Fungal communities are changing all the time, right? So when we cut a forest, uh uh a clear-cut forest would have a completely different fungal community than a forest that's uh covered or has a higher canopy cover. So disturbance in uh in mycorrhizae at the at the bottom of the forest is happening naturally all the time as well. And uh herbicide, I guess, is one of many ways that's happening.
SPEAKER_08Right. And I know a lot of people look for new burns or cuts for morels as one of the key areas because they believe that's uh some of the best spots to pick morels is after a new cut's gone through or or a burn has gone through. That's right. So I'm wondering, then as well as thought, um, as the ministry or well you wouldn't know, has there ever been any any uh organizations or any jurisdictions that have looked at when they're spraying this stuff to do
Moose Claims, Ticks, And Unknowns
SPEAKER_08that? What does it do to ticks? Because ticks are a big thing now with Lyme disease and everything else. And there's a bit of a panic out there in ticks. I I see it on golf courses, I see it on walking trails and the municipalities. Watch out, there's ticks in the air. Is there things that uh they that would does this impact ticks or does it kill them off as well? I I wonder, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_07No, but uh I know glyphosate affects things that that that can absorb so aquatic features like frogs and and insects that don't have the protective barrier like we do. Um, but I wonder if it impacts ticks because I I recently been hearing that tick populations have been have been increasing uh like crazy. So uh I don't know how big an impact it would have. But we're not really spraying around water bodies or or for ticks, we're specifically targeting very very small areas where we're planting seedlings and just that area itself. And we're we're trying to avoid rainy days, we're trying to avoid windy days. We send out people with uh equestrels to check wind speed. So when the plane flies over, that only the specific spot gets sprayed. So I don't know. That's a good question, I think, worthy looking into.
SPEAKER_08Well, maybe that's something that uh um somebody might advise some stuff we should look at that because it could, and believe me, uh if that was the case, I think public opinion uh would be we should be spraying more.
SPEAKER_07I would I might agree with that. I'm not a big fan of ticks.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, uh well, I know. And and uh the impact that ticks is having on on societies. I mean, there's one clothing retailer that's selling tick-proof clothing that'll last a season because they spray it with, I'm not sure it's probably permetherin, but uh you can verify that in order to to kill off ticks. But certainly there is a concern if there was something there that uh took care of the the plant, the broadleaf issue to allow the the uh target species like jackpine and red pine to go through. And also, oh by the way, it takes care of the ticks as well, might go over very well. So um and what do other jurisdictions so Ontario sprays is very small, concentrated, a lot of uh checks and balances to ensure it's targeted, and the impact is minimized for negative uh aspects of it at all.
Ontario Versus Quebec Policy Choices
SPEAKER_08What what do other jurisdictions do in regards to this? Are there other jurisdictions that spray a heck of a lot more or a heck of a lot less?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you you mentioned Algonquin Forests, so they're an interesting place. Um most of other forests in Ontario are SFL or so-called private forests uh managed. But Algonquin is managed by the Crown Authority, so they in their SGRs do not allow for herbicide spraying.
SPEAKER_08Um and Quebec famously Yeah, just so our listeners know SFL stands for sustainable forest license.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and uh we're we're this that's just a license that the so in during the 1990s, as I mentioned, when the CFSA was brought in, in the past it was all done by Crown by the government, Ontario provincial government managed doing the all aspects of forestry from planning to operations to planting, civiculture, and then maybe it was too expensive, it was not economic. We shifted more towards uh private uh SFLs, uh forest companies, these licensees who we give uh contracts to for 20 years, 30 years, and we renew them depending on how they're doing. Um but uh yeah, so SFLs is a Algonquin is an interesting example where they're not using uh herbicides. And but in Quebec, that's one of the more famous examples because in 2001 the whole province uh banned use of herbicides on on Crown Land on public forests. And so they're using a different strategy, they have a completely different system. So they use bigger planting stock. I have to look that up, which is uh basically they're putting the seedlings uh in their uh greenhouses for a little bit longer. Right. So when they go and plant them in, they have a better chance. They're doing more site prep, they're doing more manual brushing. Um and all to say to that is they also have a completely different silviculture system where their province, uh the government, funds uh the silviculture completely and not the private company that's doing the the rest of the work. Right. So it's it's the I think it's it's a the big takeaway, it's it's not just the science question, it's all about the policy as well. And values, if we ifarians want to reduce or end the use of use of herbicide, then we'll have to think about our economic outcomes. You can imagine, for example, if your if your silviculture costs are way more than you're recouping from your harvest, how economically sustainable that is. And and of course, not every site you can use a mechanical, you can't send a person to go mechanically brush a site that's hard to do. You can't do fire prescriptions where you're too close to a community or us it, there's many different trade-offs. And of course, social license. If I I know tech elders in Ontario, it's a group of First Nation elders, they are generally against spraying. So if people are changing their mind and we're losing our social license, and so if you recall the CFSA talks about socially, economically, so we got we have to, I think, think about them honestly and come to a decision where we're where we can all move forward.
SPEAKER_08So our listeners know CFSA stands for?
SPEAKER_07The Canadian Forest Sustainability Act, which is almost where all of Ontario uh forest management is based on.
SPEAKER_08Right. Now, and you mentioned the difference between Quebec and Ontario, but uh Ontario, and I don't some of a lot of people know this, but the when people harvest or companies harvest on a they get a sustainable forest license to manage an area and it tells them basically the do's and don'ts and what's allowed in their SFL. Um what uh they pay something called stumpage fee, right? That's right. And so the stumpage fee goes back to the province as a fee in order to harvest in those areas, and the stumpage fee is utilized for different practices such as the silviculture talking about. Now, I don't know what the the the equivalency is in Quebec or any of the other jurisdictions, but I do know that there was one time when all the ministers uh for forestry met Canada wide at a conference uh when I was minister, and the federal government came in and they said, Oh, we have a great idea, we're gonna plant all kinds of trees in um vacant wooded wooded uh vacant fields now where forests have all been harvested. So and and I said to them, I said, Okay, that's great. I said, but what you're doing now is you're creating an uncompetitive market because shipping costs are one of the largest costs in the forestry sector to get to get it from the forest to the mills. And if you're gonna plant beside the mill, you're giving them an uh an uh uncompetitive advantage compared to other places. How do you compensate for that? And every other minister went, Yeah, you're right. And then the f federal government, gee, we never thought about that. The point bringing up stuff like that is that sometimes there's competitive advantages in certain areas, and sometimes uh uh and other jurisdictions have other ones. For example, who pays the cost to build roads as bridges for companies to get in to harvest the forest? And that varies by jurisdiction as well. Right?
SPEAKER_07That's that's you're completely right. So in Ontario, for example, forest roads are funded by the provincial government because, of course, they're on crown land. So the members of the public use these forest roads, and everybody has an access to or the right to go use them based on the Public Lands Act. And and so forest companies of Course, they're going to go do forestry, but they're also building roads. Right. And so the the government has an interest in making these areas accessible to the public or are on Crownland.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_07And for Quebec, as you were saying, uh or for sorry, excuse me, stumpage, as you were saying. Uh we so we the stumpage we collect is just the dues for the trees individual volume of trees. And for civiculture costs, we have a renewal trust fund and a forest futures trust, but those trusts are paid in by the forest companies themselves, which is an account that they manage uh into yearly. And so they're so anytime they cut a tree, you basically they we calculate at the start of the year what would it cost to renew that forest specifically. Right. And so let's say that company goes belly up or or or bankrupts, we have that fund available by the provincial government to go back and renew that forest. So there's no forest that's harvested and no one's left with, oh, what should we do now? So the government's a lot of these checks and balances to make sure we're getting a forest at the end of it.
SPEAKER_08Exactly. And you know, when the forest companies go in and build these new roads, once they're done harvesting, and even when they're done, not done harvesting, that's when prospectors will move in and start checking to find out if there's any rare earth minerals in the area that's a good idea.
Roads, Mining, And Global Pressures
SPEAKER_08I I think quite frankly, that's what uh our uh the the person to the the the jurisdiction to the south of Canada is looking at uh greenland forest because they're trying to access rare earth minerals, where China, from my understanding, is is controlling the world market by buying up huge tracts of it or gaining the rights to it in Africa. And there's not many other jurisdictions that have it, although it may be in Greenland, but I haven't seen that specific yet. But if the forest industry is opening up new roads and allowing prospectors to come in, then quite frankly, Ontario may be one of the ones that could be able to supply significant resources needed to build, well, all our are the new technologies, all the AI, the cell phones, and all that are using a lot of new world minerals and are necessary for the new technologies that are out there. But most people also don't realize that the the Toronto Stock Exchange was originally founded as a mining stock exchange because of what took place in places like Sudbury. And Ontario used to have huge mining impacts and potentially has the ability to be back up there again if it's done in the right way. It's sustainably changing now, so that mining is is far more environmentally safe in a lot of different ways.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, that's that's exactly right. Because um these um people I think for uh don't realize if we're not doing sustainable management here, it goes somewhere else. It goes to the Amazon, it goes to Indonesia, it goes to other places where they're not certified, they're not following all these amazing practices that people have built in Ontario since the 1990s and even before. And we're we're learning as as as we go, we're getting better at every forest management plan we make and we improve it. And so I think it's important to keep many of these industries locally and make it environmentally sustainable for the for the whole world, not just for us.
SPEAKER_08Exactly. And it's just like last week's podcast where we had the Ontario um Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association on where the rehabilitation of of pet sites takes place and uh they they start uh for the rehabilitation even in the plan before you can start digging to make sure that it's uh in a good sense and everything's being done in the correct way and and the resources are being used significantly enough to make sure that it's sustainable or that it's not impacting negatively impacting the environment in our world. But that's how these sort of things move forward is we we inform people, that's what we try to do here. So so it's uh from your perspective, um with you know, there's a lot of concern I know uh uh with glyphosate and that, uh, but your from your research, your indications that uh the way it's done and everything else is done in the province of Ontario, it is in a very effective, responsible manner.
SPEAKER_07I've I've been researching this topic for the past five years now because as I said, I think the image of a plane flying over a forest with poison is is bound to make you emotionally charged. Yeah, it does there's no way you you don't see that and and go what is going on. But I think uh it's it's just an a one tool that we have among many, and no forester, professional forester I know just says go spray everything because we want timber or if everything else. I've never heard of anything like that. Yeah, it's it's it's it's you think about all the all the different uh the challenges I talked about, balancing economics, balancing mill to to forest lands, uh balancing the habitat, balancing there's so many different aspects we're considering that it's not just me, it's a whole planning team that considers it, or one forester that considers it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And of course, with herbicide, I would say we're finding maybe we find a better herbicide later on, and and I'm I'm sure foresters will adopt it as soon as they can. And I'm always the proponent of or advocating for prescribed uh prescribed burns. That's a good alternative to to herbicide as well. But we need uh First Nations and communities to to start trusting that foresters can use them responsibly.
SPEAKER_08Right. Well, certainly uh I used to say all the time that uh in northern Ontario the lifeblood of the North was the mining and the forestry sector. And responsible uses and development of those areas is very key for our communities and our growth as a country and everything that we're able to provide and jobs and everything else that it sustains as well. Very good. Okay, Saad, uh is there anything else you think that uh we should uh cover in regards to uh the forestry sector and what's taking place with the spray and how it should or should not, or alternatives and things like that?
Local Logging Economics And Social License
SPEAKER_07Um I think I'll also add that it really depends, depending on where you are, uh some of the some of the profits, because I talked to a lot of cottagers sometime as part of my work, and I and sometimes they say uh forest companies make a lot of profit. And why are you guys uh spraying for this extra little bit of profit? And but I have to remind them, depending on where you are in Ontario, those profit margins sometimes can be yes, big, maybe sometimes not so much. In the southern forest, for example, it's a very small operator uh-based forest where you have families that would be logging here, especially in the Perry Sound or or uh uh Brace Beach area for generations. And with with this impacts by tariff and the market uncertainty, and just recently the the lack of places where we can send our wood, these operators have a few machines that they basically have as um mortgages like we do on houses. And if they can't go out and do their job or they end up going bankrupt. And so they're they I know those people are not making a lot of profits. And forest management is their is their work for uh for not just for them, for many communities. So I think it's important to keep that in mind for people who are not so connected to the forest side of things.
SPEAKER_08Exactly. And I don't think a lot of people who are not uh working directly in the industry get a full understanding of a lot of the impacts on things that take place. And I know, for example, I was in Hearst when I was minister, and they wanted to develop a cottage lot industry because it would uh certainly help in the summertime with a lot of the the the industries up there. And uh they wanted to write uh to sell off Crown Land cottage lots near Hearst so that uh people would come to Hearst and then and I said, Okay, well, where do you think these people are gonna come from? Oh, we would expect they'd come from the States or Toronto. I said, uh first thing I said was at this round table meeting in Hearst. I said, and what do you think these people from Toronto are gonna say the first time they see 10 logging trucks going down a day down their cottage road? Oh yeah, we never thought about that. Because a lot of those individuals don't gain a full understanding of, like I said, the lifeblood of the north and in those communities up north are very dependent on the forestry sector or the mining sector for their for their livelihoods. But that's all how we uh inform people by doing stuff like bringing you on on this podcast so people get a better understanding.
Hazard Versus Risk Explained
SPEAKER_07Thank you so much for having me on. And I remember just one more thing I want to add because I think people also confuse this, it's the hazard and risk aspect. I always hear people talk about because if you go on Google and type in glyphosate, you might get the World Health Organization saying that glyphosate can can harm or cause cancer, and then you get Health Canada, one of our regulatory organizations, not saying the same thing. So how does that how's that how does that how is that different? But I and and it's kind of confusing to understand. So I had to put in my own words. So the question I the the question that the UN bodies are asking is can this substance be harmful under some conditions? That's the question they're asking. And of course, it it can be hyglyphosate, it it can be, but Health Canada is asking a different question. It asks under the way it's actually registered and used in Canada and late and the labels and the buffers and the exposure limits and all the things I talked about, all the different aspects we use to mitigate, is that an acceptable risk? So it's two different questions that that are being asked. And if you put those two in the same category, you might think, why is Health Canada completing the opposite of um the UN bodies?
SPEAKER_08Right. Well, now they're informed and people have the ability to make their own decisions on it. Thank you so much. Well, thanks very much, Asad. I very much appreciated that. And then and we're just learning more and more about the things and what happens out there under the canopy. Thanks a lot, Asad. We really appreciate you taking the time being on with your expertise.
SPEAKER_07Thank you. Take care.
Final Thanks And More Podcast Promos
SPEAKER_14But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people. Share their stories of our trials, tribulations, and inspirations. Learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.
SPEAKER_02Meanwhile, we're sitting there popping on trying to figure out how to catch a mask. And we both decided one day we were going to be in television. Doing efficient jobs.
SPEAKER_11My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in a little pants in the summertime, but that's mighty feel more efficient than it was peach.
SPEAKER_14Find diaries of a lodge owner now on Spotify Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.