Episode 154: Why Spruce Trees Turn Rusty Red

Your spruce trees look fine one week, then the needles fade to rusty red and the worry sets in. We’ve been seeing the same thing around cottage country, so we called someone who lives in the details of Ontario forest health: David Dutkiewicz, an entomology technician who’s spent years identifying forest insects and supporting monitoring work across the province. Together, we sort out what those colour changes can mean and how to stop guessing when the stakes are your shoreline trees, your trails, and the woods you grew up with. 

We get specific about spruce budworm, a native insect that cycles through outbreaks and can leave huge areas looking scorched from above. David walks us through the best visual clues to look for, why damage can show up after the feeding is already done, and what “recovery” really means when only parts of a crown are hit versus an entire tree turning red. We also break down BTK (Bacillus thuringiensis kurstaki), how this biological spray affects caterpillars, why it’s used in forest management and organic gardening, and when it’s worth considering for your own property. 

Not all red needles are budworm, so we zoom out to the other stressors that can push conifers over the edge: heavy snow damage, salt exposure near roads, and root compaction from vehicles and repeated traffic. Then we switch gears to those big long-antenna “pine beetles” people fear, explaining why pine sawyer beetles are often a sign of a healthy forest recycling system, especially after blowdowns and microbursts. We finish with two major beech threats, beech bark disease and beech leaf disease, including what we know about the nematode linked to leaf damage and why it matters for regeneration. 

Subscribe for more conversations about trees, insects, and life under the canopy, and if this helped, share it with a friend who owns a camp or loves the woods and leave us a review. What changes are you seeing in your area right now?

Transcript

Welcome To Outdoor Journal Radio

SPEAKER_09 0:01

Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola. And I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, Angela will be right here in your ears, bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm. Now what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.

SPEAKER_09 0:27

Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors. From athletes.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

All the other guys would go golfing. Me and Garchomp Turks. And all the Russians would go fishing. The scientists. And now that we're looking reforesting or anything, it's the perfect transmission environment to line with it. Chefs, if any game isn't cooked properly, marinated for me, you will taste it.

SPEAKER_09 0:53

And whoever else will pick up the phone. Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Under The Canopy Sets The Tone

SPEAKER_06 1:15

As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Olette, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully, we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy.

Listener Questions And Tea Plans

SPEAKER_06 3:02

Of course, we've got uh any questions you have, let us know. And any suggestions for shows, let us know. I think I'm probably gonna work on getting some more tea information because I'm getting a a bunch of questions regarding tea and and I'll see about John being potentially on again. Uh John Snell was the international tea expert that we had that the United Nations took him to Pakistan last November to set up the uh country's tea industry. But uh anyway, so and we've had John on a couple of times, so I think I'll work on bringing John in and see about um getting some of

Cottage Life With Gunner And Dock Work

SPEAKER_06 3:40

those questions answers by an expert. But uh so uh recently uh Gunner, we've um chocolate lab gunner, he just loves going to the cottage or the camp. And I gotta tell you, last time there was weekend last, and he was probably spent as much time as he could in the water, nonstop swimming, just going crazy, which was probably the best thing for him because it cooled him down, and he got lots of exercise. So that tired him right out. And yeah, it was a little bit hot and got a lot of work done on the dock. Got the old cribs ripped apart and re re reconstructing them so that uh the dock is good. And hopefully this weekend I should have all that complete and good to go to to finish up, and then just put a floating dock out there at the end, and I should have everything all set there and then move on to the next project, which will be power washing a bunch of the pollen off because the pollen up there is covering everything on the um the glass, the the the logs, and for those that don't know, I built a log cabin and cut the cut all the cedar and the pine and the white pine and what else do we get in the red pine as well? And some uh we have a wall of actually aspen or poplar to try and see that uh how that would work. But uh cut it all by hand with a chainsaw, peeled them all with drawing knives, hauled them out, hauled them up there, put it all together, and uh yeah, it's uh it's been an ongoing project and quite the work.

Why The Spruce Die Off Matters

SPEAKER_06 5:16

But one of the things that inspired me to bring on the guest was that we have on today, was I'm seeing all kind of dead like spruce trees, or it could be fir, but they're just and these look like totally very healthy trees, and all of a sudden they're they're turning uh rusty red and dying off. And today's guest is from is David Dudkowicz. Have I said it right, David?

SPEAKER_04 5:45

Yes, yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_06 5:47

Well, it's uh because my grandfather was Polish and my grandmother on my these are on my mother's side was Ukrainian. So um my mother has a friend with the same last name here in Oshawa. So that's how I called your name the same. Now, is that the way you would pronounce it, David?

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Uh I think it's the way my grandfather would pronounce it. Mostly I've anglicized it a little bit with Dukievich, but Dukkevich is definitely the how you'd actually say it.

SPEAKER_06 6:16

Right. So uh David, tell us a

Meet Forest Insect Specialist David

SPEAKER_06 6:19

bit about yourself. You know, where about you where do you live right now? Where about so our international listeners know where you're where we're talking to.

SPEAKER_04 6:26

Uh so I'm from uh Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. So sort of right in the the heart of the Great Lakes, uh and lots of forest around here. So um interest in trees and insects is is where my expertise comes in. And uh I've been working with the Invasive Species Center now, uh doing insect identification uh for the MR Forest Health Program for uh 10 years with the Invasive Species Center, and then I was also a student uh four years previous to that. So I've got about 14 years experience in Ontario forest insects.

SPEAKER_06 7:06

So you're you're are you an entomologist?

SPEAKER_04 7:09

Yes. So I'm an entomology technician, um which means I do a little bit more, I get my hands a little bit more dirty than than the actual entomologists. Uh if I were to say that, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:23

So where did you go for schooling for this, David?

SPEAKER_04 7:27

Um so I went to Algoma University, which was here in Sault Ste. Marie, and that's sort of led me to get a job uh with the uh Natural Resource Canada Great Lakes Forestry Center, uh, which is here in Sault Ste. Marie. And that's where I got into the study and identification of insects. And after I finished my undergrad, I went to do a forestry um certificate at Sioux College. And then following that, I did my uh master's in environmental science at the University of Guelph.

SPEAKER_06 8:02

Oh, very good, very good. Yeah. I know the Sioux uh fairly well. We get up there, and my dad's from uh Sault Ste. Marie, we call it the Sioux. And um I have a lot of cousins and relatives up there, and we uh get out to camp up uh the Ranger Lake Road, if you know where that is, fairly often.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Yep, beautiful area.

SPEAKER_06 8:21

Yeah. No, it's it's my cousin happens to be down with her kids, and and uh my cousin Mary and her kids are from Wawa. But I guess it's pretty hot up there right now, is it?

SPEAKER_04 8:33

Yes, it is extremely warm. Uh about it's been 32 to 35 degrees for the last couple days. So yeah.

Heat And Wildfire Conditions Up North

SPEAKER_06 8:43

So and how's the forest fire situation up there then, David?

SPEAKER_04 8:47

Uh so I haven't heard too much in the Sault Ste. Marie area, although I did read that there was a forest fire out near the Sault Ste. Marie Airport, which is on the outskirts of town.

SPEAKER_05 8:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

Uh, but it was quickly dealt with uh by um the Sault Ste. Marie Fire Department as well as the MR. Um but I have heard a lot of um places uh north of the Sioux that have uh quite a bit of fire um going on there.

SPEAKER_06 9:16

Oh yeah, yeah. Well, they used to have um at uh Ranger Lake, there used to be a a station there that um uh that uh was a rather interesting. It's a beautiful spot up there. On Ranger, have you been ever up to that station at all, David?

SPEAKER_04 9:31

Yes, I had lunch there one time. It is gorgeous.

SPEAKER_06 9:34

It is, yeah. Yeah, it is spectacular. And and Ranger Lake is quite the lake as well. Um I've never well, we fished it a bit. I caught one what did I catch up there? A lake trout once. That was about it, but uh not a lot of other uh stuff that we've caught in that area. But it's a beautiful part of the country. And actually where the um the river comes out there, it's kind of interesting because it's fly fishing only for a significant stretch of stream there for several miles, I believe, that goes right from uh as far as I know, I haven't checked it, but it's on that river there, uh the Garden River, right down to Garden Lake. I think it's fly fishing only. So it's it's uh uh something unique. And I don't see a lot of fly fishing only places around, but that's one that was listed. So once upon a time decades ago, uh there's probably somebody that was in the ministry that liked to fly fish and kept that as a fly fishing only zone.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

I can see that.

Spruce Budworm Basics And Where It Hits

SPEAKER_06 10:31

So, David, tell me, I'm getting up to uh to my camp, my cottage, and I'm seeing all kind of healthy spruce trees turning rusty and dying off. What's going on?

SPEAKER_04 10:44

Um well, there could be a number of reasons why that that's happening. Um one of which is the notorious spruce budworm.

SPEAKER_05 10:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

Always rears its ugly head. Uh it's a native species uh to the Boreal forest areas as well as into the um Great Lake St. Lawrence forest as well. And it's one of those uh pests that uh sort of pops up every now and again. Uh last year uh the province itself was dealing with uh almost 700 uh thousand hectares of defoliation and uh uh moderate to severe defoliation.

SPEAKER_05 11:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

Um so I mean there's definitely a lot of uh spruce budworm activities in the north, then as well, uh down through um the Algonquin Provincial Park as well, down into the Bancroft area as well.

SPEAKER_06 11:43

Yeah, I see it uh mostly on the Halliburton side as opposed to Bancroft. I see more of it. But so and is there a way to identify to verify that it uh could be the spruce budworm?

SPEAKER_04 11:55

Um a really good way to check is to actually look for the pupil casings in the the actual uh needles. Um the spruce budworm goes after the the new foliage, so it will eat up a lot of the new foliage. But uh right now you'd actually be seeing the spruce budworm will be flying. So um but the trees are starting to turn color. So the the budworm itself has uh has eaten its fill through the end of May into June, and it's pupated, and now it's starting to fly, it's starting to look for mating, but the tree is actually just starting to show that rusty color, those those um brown-gray sort of uh appearance of the tree. You know, the trees don't look really the greatest, and uh you can actually see a lot of the the damage from uh above as well as uh looking up at the trees from below.

SPEAKER_06 12:50

So is it is is the tree dead now that it's it's turned, or will it come back?

SPEAKER_04 12:56

No, it will come back. Um these uh spruce trees and spruce budworm have had this sort of give and take uh relationship for a very long time. You know, they it's a native species since the last ice age when the boreal forest was starting to uh take hold again. Um and they've sort of had this sort of cyclical nature where every couple years it sort of uh popped up again. Um our last sort of bigger outbreak was in uh 2022, 2023, and it's actually starting to go down a little bit, but it's still at a pretty high uh uh defoliation uh rate right now.

SPEAKER_06 13:41

So is it just spruce trees that this attacks?

SPEAKER_04 13:44

Nope. Spruce trees, fir trees, um, and if it's a high enough uh infestation year, uh they'll go after some um hemlocks. I've seen them on hemlocks, but it's more or less um a rarity, but if they can go on hemlocks as well. But mostly your your um spruce trees, all different types of spruce, so your black spruce, your white spruce, your red spruce, uh, as well as into balsam firs.

SPEAKER_06 14:14

So um is there a way to catch these moths, like a pheromone trap, or is that worthwhile to try and uh slow the spread?

How To Spot Budworm Damage

SPEAKER_04 14:25

Um so really the only way to slow the spread is uh through a lot of different uh government organizations. They'll do what's called a spray program. Uh and the Ministry of Natural Resources has been doing a spray program um in the northeastern part of the province, um, sort of near the Timmins area, um, down to Timmins

BTK Sprays And How They Work

SPEAKER_04 14:49

Commune Shores in that sort of area, uh, to sort of preserve uh the spruce in that area. So what they would do is they would go out and spray uh BTK, which is a bacteria, uh biopesticide. Right. I don't know if you know much about that, but um it's essentially what it what it is, it's a um it's a bacteria that uh essentially gives caterpillars ulcers.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

So um this bacteria is housed in a crystalline protein structure which gets sprayed onto the needles of of the spruce tree.

SPEAKER_05 15:32

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:32

And these caterpillars go along as they're eating and they'll ingest this uh little droplet of of bacteria into their stomach. And because um spruce budworm and other types of Lepidoptera, so the moss and butterfly group, yes, uh, they'll essentially they have an alkaline stomach.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:55

So that's why this bacteria doesn't hurt people or like mammals and things like that, because we have acidic stomachs.

SPEAKER_05 16:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:02

So they have an alkaline stomach, so it dissolves in the alkaline stomach of the caterpillar, and it uh binds to their stomach the stomachs, and it essentially gives them uh an ulcer and they die of sepsis, really, is how that sort of file pesticide works. And it prevents them from chewing on the trees and and uh it keeps everything green. It allows uh the tree to be flush uh regularly uh and it won't allow the caterpillars to to basically chew on these um uh spruce needles.

SPEAKER_06 16:40

Right. So now is this something that the average person can get their hands on to spray trees, or is it just it's a controlled substance that's only done by the ministry?

SPEAKER_04 16:50

No, it's actually uh it's used a lot in garden centers.

SPEAKER_05 16:54

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_04 16:54

Uh for yeah, so it's used in organic farming a lot of the time. Uh to keep like cabbage loopers and and like um pests away from people's gardens. So you can actually uh get a hold of the the BTK stuff uh through your actually I think they sell it at most hardware stores, but also at uh um uh most garden centers and things like that.

SPEAKER_06 17:19

So is that what you asked for? Is BTK or is there a special name that they have?

SPEAKER_04 17:24

Well, you can ask for uh bacillus uh through eugenis, uh crustaceus, but I don't know, that might be uh a mouthful for a lot of people. So uh BTK stands for the Latin name. Okay, uh, which is what I just said. And uh um usually BTK is the the easiest way to remember. So there's a couple different uh companies that make it and and uh people can can use it to combat different caterpillars. Um so the ministry sprays them from either a helicopter or a fixed-wing airplane over large areas of forests. Um and I think uh a number of years ago, um, when they had the spongy moss outbreak, I don't know if you remember that uh BTK was also used to control that caterpillar as well.

A Fishing Podcast Network Break

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Back in 2016, Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Thus, the Ugly Pike Podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North America.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike Podcast. Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous fish of 10,000 casts.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing, it's about creating a tight-knit community of passionate anglers who share the same love for the sport. Through laughter, through camaraderie, and an unwavering spirit of adventure, this podcast will bring people together.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Subscribe now and never miss a moment of our angling adventures. Tight lines, everyone.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Find Ugly Pike now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_06 19:45

Okay, I'm here in Peterborough with uh Rudy from Peterborough. And Rudy, can you tell us about uh your success with your Chaga cream?

SPEAKER_02 19:53

I love it. Uh I have uh a rare skin disease. It's called Grover's disease, and the doctors really couldn't give me anything that was lasting uh to take away the itch. So when I met Jerry and started using the cream, it was just wonderful. I find that alleviates the itch within 30 seconds, which is just significant, no question about it. So do you think I'm happy with it? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 20:29

All right, thanks, Rudy. Really appreciate that.

Chaga Cream Story And Discount Offer

SPEAKER_06 20:41

We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code CANopy, C-A-N-O-P-Y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode.

When Red Needles Mean No Return

SPEAKER_06 21:37

Now, once the tree is is turned, like I have some whole trees that have all gone kind of rusty red, but you say they'll come back? The whole tree will?

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Well, it depends. Is it rusty red or is it like a gray green?

SPEAKER_06 21:54

I think it's rusty red.

SPEAKER_04 21:56

Okay, so rusty red is probably not gonna come back.

SPEAKER_06 21:59

Okay. Okay. So only the one now I we've got other trees in there where some of the branches are starting to turn rusty red, but only a few of the branches. Now, if I want to control that, do I spray those branches to stop it from spreading? Or is is it potentially something else that could be causing this?

Other Causes Like Snow And Root Stress

SPEAKER_04 22:20

It could be something else as well. So if you go and look at your trees and look and look for the signs of spruce budworm, you'd be able to actually see the insect damage that, you know, you'd see like a little bit of silk in amongst the tree branches. You'd see pupil casings. You'd see, you know, if you're looking in in June, you'll see the actual budworms uh emerging and feeding. Um so that's the best way to tell if it's spruce budworm. But you also got to remember, too, um, we've had quite the snow year for the last couple of years as well. So that also has an impact on a lot of trees in the area as well. Um snow damage is is definitely something that um, you know, the MR does look for. It it's something that uh can impact different forests and also impact trees, whether it, you know, is root compaction, whether it breaks off branches, uh you know, there's different things that can happen that uh, you know, the environment can have an impact. There's also something known as Stillwell syndrome, uh, which affects mostly um balsam furs. Okay. And that essentially is it's it's it's it's something that we're not really too sure what happens, but all of a sudden, a healthy balsam fir that might be, you know, anywhere from 10 centimeters diameter to, you know, 30 centimeters diameter, and just in like one summer, it's brick red. And um, it's just something that happens with balsam fir trees that uh there's no real rhyme or reason, but it all of a sudden just turns brick red and it's dead. And so that's something that that does happen as well. Um another thing too is uh I've had I was talking to someone one time that had asked me about why their Bruce trees were starting to uh show signs of of uh damage as well. And it just sort of looked like an unhealthy tree. And I asked them to send me pictures and I took a look at the pictures and things like that. And one of the things I noticed is you know, they moved sort of their not their driveway, but they kind of shifted the driveway over a little bit. So root compaction is another thing. So if you're you know constantly moving over these roots of this this tree area with a vehicle or you know, ATV, or if you're starting to store firewood under these trees and things like that, that also can have another impact on on uh these trees. So root compaction is definitely um they're not really uh that deep into the ground, the roots. So if you're constantly like walking or not walking, but like driving over these types of roots, if you're too if they're too close to the driveway or too close to a path well traveled, they might have a stressor just because their roots are constantly being compacted in those areas as well.

SPEAKER_06 25:41

So the areas that I'm seeing these this die off in is quite a bit there, that brick red you said, um large in fairly large numbers. I mean, when you're driving along the highway, uh there's it's these are back up uh away from the highway, so a significant distance. I mean probably 30, 40 yards away.

unknown 26:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 26:02

So that probably is. Yeah. So I'm kind of surprised. But and what I'm seeing now is we had one die off, and now another one's died off, and now another tree, just the lower branches are turning brick red. But uh I'm not sure uh and it looks like the whole tree will eventually go just like the other ones.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

Are you saying these are these ones that are close to the highway?

SPEAKER_06 26:25

No, not the ones that I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_04 26:26

But uh, because I was gonna say uh some of the ones that are close to the highway, they tend to turn red because of salt damage.

SPEAKER_06 26:34

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

You'll see that along roadsides a lot.

SPEAKER_06 26:38

Yeah, no, no. No, no salt damage for these ones where I'm talking about. So because they're quite the distance away. So but yeah, it's uh it's quite quite a ways. Um and so what it looks like now is the the the the next tree beside it is starting to go now as well. Kind of like a domino effect. So I'm not sure what it is then.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

I wonder if there has something to do with the roots if it's going like that.

SPEAKER_06 27:07

Well, but it's it's it's I'm seeing this in the whole Halliburton area from basically I don't know, um a place called Cardiff, and a halfway between Halliburton and Bancroft, uh, and west towards Halliburton. Not so much east of Bancroft, but west of Halliburton. And when you drive the back roads or any of the roads, large numbers of these uh spruce trees are turned dying off in the same fashion.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

Interesting.

SPEAKER_06 27:34

Yeah. So I'm not sure. That's why I'm talking to you to see if you had any suggestions or ideas.

SPEAKER_04 27:43

I have some ideas, but I need to I should get out and and see them. Actually, I had to drive through Highway 60 a couple weeks ago. Um the Highway 17 was closed, so I had to go. I was coming from Ottawa to Sault Ste. Marie. I had to dip down through Highway 60 there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I didn't notice many trees that were rusty colored, but well, what I'll do is I'll take some images and I'll send you some, okay? Yeah, take some pictures for sure. I'd love to take a look at them.

SPEAKER_06 28:16

Yeah.

Pine Sawyer Beetles Are Forest Helpers

SPEAKER_06 28:17

Now another thing that I saw today, David, was um I was uh in Halliburton doing an event there, and a pine beetle landed uh beside on my table. And of course, all the kids were there were like, what is that? And they'd never seen one before. And it's got these these long antenna on the front of them. Yep. And what's the impact with them, or what kind of impact do they have on on the forest?

SPEAKER_04 28:44

That is a sign you have a healthy forest.

SPEAKER_06 28:47

Oh, it is?

SPEAKER_04 28:48

Oh yeah, those are great. Everyone's always scared of them because they do have uh an aggressive bite, I'll admit that.

SPEAKER_06 28:57

Um they bite and they bite people, right?

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Well, the thing is, so their defense mechanism is to hold on as hard as possible. So, because if you think about it, there's crows and birds that are their their prey. So if they're on a branch and a crow comes up to them and tries to peck them off the tree, they're gonna hold on with their mouth part and they're gonna clamp down as hard as they can in order to prevent themselves from getting taken by this crow. So if you have one that lands on you and you go to pick it up and flick it off your body, it's gonna clamp down. And what is it gonna clamp down on? Well, it's gonna clamp down on your skin. So if you gently coats it off your body, if you say, okay, time to go, and like gently prod it off, it will just fly away and it won't ever bite you. But if you freak out a little bit, it's gonna bite and hold on. So I think it's misunderstood.

SPEAKER_06 30:02

So now, David, is it like a lot of other insects that uh uh or stinging nettle that give off formic acid, like ants and some of the other stuff that uh give that that that stinging, biting sensation? Or is it just No, it will take a chunk out of you. Kind of like a black fly, right? Except these things are big because they're well, how long would these pine beetles be? About what, three inches? Uh pretty close.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

Like, yeah. Some of the the um pine sawyer beetles are the biggest ones. And uh they're all part of the Sawyer beetle group. And um they're yeah, I'd say, you know, at least two to two to two and a half inches long. They can get pretty big. Um but uh, you know, they're there are signs of healthy force. Essentially, um if you think about it, uh, you know, if you have a tree, uh the best way to decompose a tree is by um fungus. So fungus needs to decompose a tree, and that's what recycles the nutrients.

SPEAKER_05 31:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

So funguses usually start on the surfaces and they have to work their way into the tree in order to uh decompose that tree. Right. So we have these sort of pests, but they're not pests, they're really just sort of uh secondary hosts. Um if there's a tree that's that's damaged, that's not doing well, these tr uh these insects are attracted to them, and they'll basically burrow in through the tree and and make all these holes and galleries in through there, and that allows the funguses to get in and sort of start to decompose the tree from the inside out. So a lot of those trees, a lot of those insects, uh those soy beetles, those pine bugs, um, they will they're one of the first ways that these funguses can get into those trees to start decomposing it so we don't have this giant buildup of um, you know, dead trees on our landscape. Right. So I think they're just misunderstood, but they are part of the ecosystem. But they do scare people a lot.

SPEAKER_06 32:17

Yeah, a lot of the ones we're looking at like, what is that? And I said, well, um not knowing the reason why, I said, you gotta watch because they do bite, but it's not so much a bite, it's it's more or less a hold on kind of uh experience, right?

SPEAKER_04 32:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 32:35

So uh David, what other kind of insects are are now um coming into our forests and having an impact on on lava food? Well, so the pine beetle, though it's it's first of all, pine beetle, let's finish with that. There's not a lot of problems with it. It doesn't uh consume a lot of trees, doesn't uh lay eggs that the larva eat into the tree and stuff like that?

SPEAKER_04 32:54

Uh well they that's what they do. They do uh lay eggs and and they consume the tree, but a big portion of what they are consuming is um trees that are giving off uh an ethanol scent. Okay. So um actually ethanol is is uh sort of um a volatile that trees give off when they're damaged or if they're dying.

SPEAKER_06 33:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

Um so usually people will find pine bugs if they have a beer in their hand or if they're you know near a gas station or something like that because there's ethanol in the gas. Uh but yes, if you have a drink in your hand, you're gonna have uh pine bugs that are attracted to you. So just an FY to your listeners.

SPEAKER_06 33:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:39

Um but essentially um these insects sort of go to places or are their populations will explode in places where um there's been a a big damage

Blowdowns And Insect Population Spikes

SPEAKER_04 33:55

area. So a good example is um near North Bay, Mattawa area. Yep. Uh the Samuel de Champlain uh provincial park. Uh I don't know if you've heard about that, but last year it had a micro burst at the beginning of the year, and there was a ton of trees that just collapsed. Uh and you know, they had to um rescue campers with chainsaws in order to get there. But those trees, for example, those are called blowdown events. And those insects like the um soy beetles or pine bugs, they would actually explode in populations in those areas because they have a lot of damaged and um dying trees, and they start to uh feed in those trees and will essentially, like I had sent before, they start that uh decomposition process. So a lot of areas that have blowdown events uh will find uh a large population of those um pine bugs and things like that.

SPEAKER_06 35:02

How long after an event like a blowdown? Uh and for those that don't you know, you got a micro burst, which is basically a uh stream of air that comes down and and blows one way and knocks a large quantity of trees over. So after that happens, how long is it like the next year sort of thing that all of a sudden the infestation starts to take place and expand from there? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

Oh yeah. I've been involved in some experiments in Saskatchewan that looked at blowdown and they looked at five years after, and we looked at the insect populations from the initial blowdown year to five years afterwards, and the increase in those um those soyer beetles was was quite significant.

SPEAKER_06 35:49

Hmm. Interesting.

Beech Bark Disease And Beech Leaf Disease

SPEAKER_06 35:51

All right. So what other kind of insects are are recently impacting our forests? Probably lots, but any that people should be aware of or cognizant of?

SPEAKER_04 36:01

Um there's uh a ton of insects that I can probably talk about today. Um especially in in your area talking about uh a lot of people are really concerned about uh different beech trees in the area.

SPEAKER_06 36:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Uh there's two things that are going on with the beaches in those areas. Um and one is known as the beach bark disease. Right. Is it's um uh a type of fungus that actually gets into the trees and it kills the tree um by uh introducing itself through what's called a beach bark scale. It needs an insect in order to get into the tree. And this tree essentially kills large mature trees. And so we've had beech bark disease in Ontario, in southern Ontario, and slowly creeping north uh for a number of years now. But we have this secondary beach leaf disease that is starting to affect the young beech trees.

SPEAKER_06 37:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:06

So the beech in the area are just are not having a good time because the large beaches are now being affected and killed by beach bark disease. Um, and then this beech leaf disease is starting to kill a lot of the younger beech that is um that was growing from the the um seed releases of the larger beech trees. And so it's also creeping its way uh, you know, north of Barrie, north of Aurelia, into the Bracebridge area, as well as uh over towards Belleville, Peterborough area. So it's starting to creep uh through the areas. And we're not actually sure what's causing, or no, we know what's causing it. It's a nematode. Uh so for those of you who don't know what a nematode is, it's called a round worm. And it's essentially a little tiny uh microscopic worm that uh we're not sure how it gets to the leaf, but it's showing up in leaves, and it creates this sort of like leathery effect on the leaf that prevents the tree from photosynthesizing.

SPEAKER_05 38:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 38:16

And it's basically choking off the nutrients of the the younger trees and and it's dying. So that's one that we're trying to work on and and figure out um what's going on there.

SPEAKER_06 38:28

Interesting.

Wrap Up And Send Photos

SPEAKER_06 38:30

Well, uh David, um I'm I appreciate all the information that you've given me. What I'm gonna do is is I'm gonna get um some photos and send you the images of these spruce trees, so maybe you can kind of figure out or give some advice as to what I can do and how I what I can follow to see if there's any follow-up on that. And then once we uh once we find out, maybe we can get you back on to talk about some of these other insects that you're talking about, if and when we get a little more time. That'd be great, for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for David. I really appreciate you taking the time to be on our podcast. And as always, uh if anybody has any questions, don't be afraid to ask. Let us know and we can see if we can get the answers and learning more about just what's happening out there under the canopy. Thanks, David.

Teaser For Diaries Of A Lodge Owner

SPEAKER_07 39:34

How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, Steve Nitzwicky, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, Diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people. Share their stories of our trials, tribulations, and inspirations, learn and have plenty of laughs along the way.

SPEAKER_08 40:08

Meanwhile, we're sitting there popping along trying to figure out how to catch a bass. And we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing show.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in on those bass in the summertime, but that's might be for more efficient than it was punchy.

SPEAKER_07 40:25

You so confidently said, Hey Pat, have you ever eaten a drink? Find Diaries of a Lodge Owner now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.