E17: A Father's Journey Through The Labyrinth Of Pregnancy Loss ft. Brandon Byrnes (re-released)

This episode, released in 2023 on The Miscarriage Dad's Podcast, is reappropriated from another podcast I hosted called "Welcome To Fatherhood". 

SHOW NOTES

A doctor shrugs after telling a couple they’re going to lose their twins, and that single moment becomes a scar you can feel years later. Brandon Byrnes joins me to share the full story: the shock of finding out they were expecting twins, the joy of watching them move on an ultrasound, weeks of bed rest and fear, and then the frantic drive to the hospital as the pregnancy ends. We don’t sensationalize miscarriage and pregnancy loss, but we also don’t soften what it can do to a marriage, a nervous system, and a parent’s sense of safety.

We talk about the part that often goes unspoken: fatherhood grief. Brandon describes how military training helped him function in chaos and how the real emotional impact landed later, like a constant noise in the background of his life. We dig into medical trauma, anger, and the helpless “solve it” instinct many men feel when there’s nothing left to fix. If you’ve ever searched for support after miscarriage, coping with infant loss, or how to help your spouse through pregnancy loss, you’ll hear language you can actually use.

We also make room for meaning. Brandon shares how they honored their twins through remembrance, why naming Taylor and Jaden mattered, and how listening without advice can become a form of healing for dads who don’t have many places to put this kind of pain. 

If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more parents and partners can find it.

SUPPORT PATHWAY

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Show Music from Soundstripe

European Sunrise & God Remembers by Anthony Catacoli

Among The Stars (Stripped) by Violet Mourning

Drift by Bobo Renthlei 

Transcript

Trigger Warning And Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Today's episode contains segments that may be triggering to some listeners. My guest is Brandon Burns. Brandon was born in Reno, Nevada, where he spent a short time in foster care before being adopted and moving to Northern California, where he still resides. After graduating high school, Brandon joined the military for four years and later earned his bachelor and MBA degree at a local university. Now, you may have noticed the change in the way this week's episode is introduced. That's because of the nature of what Brandon and I discussed in this conversation. In 2018, Brandon became a father and learned nine months later that he was going to have twins. But the outcome was not what he and his wife expected.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

And then I just remember walking into that room and hearing not like the scream of a woman in labor, but the scream of a woman losing her child. And that was so much harder to hear. There's a very specific cry in the doctor that had to um help us get the babies out um after after we lost them in the miscarriage. He was actually having a baby the following week. So he was very um emotionally affected by that as well. I think a few hours later, my wife finally calmed down and was able to start processing that moment, but um that was a very hard thing to go through.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

This may be a challenging conversation to listen through, but we believe there is payoff.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

I I think it's also a way to heal, you know, for both you and I, uh engaging like this. We can both uh speak into each other's stories. And again, it's not giving advice. I'm not I'm not telling you what books to read, I'm not telling you how to cope, but just listening to you and you listening to me, I think, is a powerful way to engage and and heal.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Thank you for tuning into this conversation and for spending part of your day with us. And now, here's the episode.

Meet Brandon And His Family

SPEAKER_01 2:37

All right, so why don't you go ahead and start by please introducing yourself?

SPEAKER_02 2:41

So my name is Brandon Burns. I am currently 30 years old. I've been married for seven years. I have five kids under five, and I live in Northern California, which is where I've been most of my life, ever since about the age of four. Former military got out about seven years ago and went to college. And then I would also say another big thing to know about me is that I'm adopted as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

So this is the first time that we're meeting, and the way that the connection happened is through podcast that I was recently on the uh Fatherhood Field Notes. Thank you. The Fatherhood Field Notes podcast with our buddy Ned. And you have also been featured on that podcast, and so you reached out to me maybe about a week or so ago, Brendan. And you said that you had heard the conversation that I had with Ned on the podcast, and it resonated with you because you also have a personal story to share as well. And so we're now having this conversation.

Twins Discovered Then Dismissed

SPEAKER_01 4:02

So the topic, uh part of the topic that I covered with Ned on his podcast was my experience with pregnancy loss and supporting my wife and and what that was like for me. And that seems to have resonated with you. So give me a sense of how did you come across that? What resonated with you and what prompted you to reach out?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, so I I started by introducing that I have five kids under five, which means my oldest is four. And if if people listening are doing math, they're they're one they're wondering how did you have five kids in four years? So after our oldest was born in July 2018, at nine months old, we found out we were pregnant with twins. So that was pretty shocking, not because twins don't run in the family, but we just never expected to have twins, especially within nine months of having our first.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

So my wife was breastfeeding our oldest, and she actually had to stop because growing twins inside of her plus breastfeeding a child was just like taking too much out of her body. Yeah. So I went through a really intense season at work, and that took us into July 2019. And at that point, I decided to take a sabbatical because the season prior to that had been so intense. And a week after I took that sabbatical, my wife started bleeding, and so we actually had to get the neighbors to come over to watch our son because nobody else was available. It was it was at nine o'clock at night, so we went to the ER, we're there for an hour, and the doctor did uh ultrasound, and that was really neat because you know we got to see the twins for the first time, and even I th I think we were eight weeks into the the pregnancy at that point, they were dancing on the screen in the ultrasound.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

What do you mean by dancing?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

They were they were very close to each other, and they were doing these really interesting movements that you could see on screen that was just obvious dancing to the point where the technician was laughing because she had never seen that before. And that was just a beautiful moment, to be honest, amidst that chaos of what was going on. So about an hour later, the doctor calls us in and he says, straight up, you're gonna have a miscarriage. Wow, and you're gonna lose your your babies. And so my wife is devastated, absolutely torn up, crying. And the doctor, you know, is kind of young, probably a new doctor. And he he looks at me and he sh he shrugs and he's like, I don't I don't see what the big deal is. That shouldn't be bad news. Like you're you're gonna be okay, you're just gonna lose your your children. That's it, you know. And then he he leaves.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay, I'm having a really visceral response to what uh you just said. And I can't put it into words yet, but I'm legitimately fighting back tears. And I don't know if it's because I'm angry, which I am, or if it's because what you're saying is resonating with my version of the first pregnancy doesn't stick thing. So okay. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yeah, so going back to your original question, what what resonated with your story? That was it right there. When when you mentioned that during your podcast, I was like, oh my gosh, that's exactly what I went through. Just completely disregarding my wife. Didn't didn't care that she was so torn apart by that news. Just the the only thing that mattered was that she was gonna be okay. And that that was really shocking. So we went home, we were devastated, and then we basically had the night to sleep on it, woke up the next morning, and just we were determined to do whatever we could to keep that pregnancy going. So my wife was able to meet with a specialist, and that specialist actually disagreed with the original doctor and said we had a chance that the babies

Bed Rest And Living In Fear

SPEAKER_02 9:07

could make it. So, what followed that was about six weeks where my wife was on bed rest. And bed rest sounds really relaxing, but it was absolute a horrible time basically watching my my wife dying because she she was bleeding internally. There was there was some kind of blood clot or something inside the uterus, and the specialist told us that whatever that was, it was big enough to basically pull the twins inside of it and terminate the pregnancy. Like if you can imagine like a black hole, and and and there was nothing we could do besides trying to hold on and keep her as relaxed as possible, but she was bleeding constantly and losing more and more blood every day.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Was she getting blood transfusions at the time or anything like that?

SPEAKER_02 10:07

I I think they didn't want to do blood transfusions because it might have messed things up a little bit more than they would, you know. Maybe her body had a bad reaction, maybe the babies, you know, and then it it took forever, it seemed like forever during that period of time. And then also there was that feeling that things were just flying, you know, time was passing by and we we couldn't keep track of it. Through all that, my son was learning to to walk because he was about a year old and and not really understanding why mom wasn't available, you know. So that was that was really interesting for me to to do everything for my wife, try to help my son learn to walk, and then just hoping everything was gonna be okay with the pregnancy. So 14 weeks, the we had reached the second trimester, and that that's typically when you're clear, you know, you have a pretty good shot of completing the pregnancy.

Clinic Neglect And Emergency Rush

SPEAKER_02 11:12

So I took my wife to a doctor's appointment, and I dropped her off. She was supposed to be there for an hour. An hour and a half goes by, and my wife calls me and she's in shock. And I I said, What's going on? And she said, She's been in the room for an hour and a half, and nobody came to to look at her. And she said, I I think I'm I'm miscarrying the babies.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Oh God.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

So I I was across town because I I didn't think anything was gonna happen. She's at a doctor's office, and so within 30 minutes, I had to drop my son off at my sister's house. I I drove through town, and it was like God was parting traffic for me to get through. I show up at the doctor's office, run upstairs, and not a single person reacted to me at all. I just went straight past them into the back room, find my wife on a table in shock, and she's just shaking, freezing, and and I can tell, you know, she she needs to go to the hospital. So I I ran back to the front, asked them to call an ambulance, nobody would do it. And then a nurse showed up finally, and she actually laughed at me and was basically like, Why are why are you worried right now? You know, you you shouldn't be upset, you just need to go to the hospital and and get her checked out. So that that was all very confusing, not what I expected at a doctor's office at all. And later we we had a doctor tell us that that particular clinic was a place where a lot of women go to have abortions, or they're basically in a place of their life where they really don't care about the pregnancy. So for whatever reason, we we got assigned that doctor's office, and they that's why they were so confused at why we we cared so much about our our babies. So I I grabbed my wife, put her in the car, and it was rush hour traffic at that point. So I was trying to get to the hospital, which was 30 minutes away, which is where they told us to go. And on the way to the hospital, my wife had that big rush of fluid that comes right before the baby's born, and she you know, she just starts screaming, she's terrified, and so I I called 911, got an ambulance, they were able to help us get to the hospital at that point, and then I just remember walking into that room and hearing not like the the scream of a woman in labor, but the scream of a woman losing her child, and that was so much harder to hear. There, there's a very specific cry in um the doctor that had to um help us get the babies out um after after we lost them in the miscarriage. Uh, he was actually having a baby the following week. Um, so he was very um emotionally affected by that as well. I think a few hours later my wife finally calmed down and was able to start processing uh that moment, but um, that was a very hard thing to go through.

The Miscarriage And Aftermath

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Anything that you just said. The chances that things would orchestrate the way that they did for your wife to end up at a clinic that sounds more uh I don't even know what a good comparison would be. And the doctor that night that just shrugged, the nurse laughing in your face and all of that, I'm uh I'm deeply disturbed by one couple, one person, even though it was the both of you, even having that combination of experiences in one pregnancy. I don't I don't even know what to say. Can you talk about some of the thoughts, feelings, emotions attached from your perspective while in the midst of you experiencing all of that?

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Because of my military background, I've been trained to be able to cope with chaos and and really being able to desensitize and turn off my emotions while I'm going through a serious situation. And because of that, in the midst of that whole period of time, I think I was pretty emotionally removed from it, pretty calm, collected, and just focused on what had to be done. But after we lost the children and it was over, even years later now, I would describe it as this if you could imagine a person in a dark void that's just screaming at the top of their lungs as hard as they can. That's like the background noise in my soul after having lost a child. I think, especially after seeing them on the ultrasound dancing, yeah. You know, that wasn't a uh maybe a full connection to having that child in my my hands, which let me just touch on that real quick. So after the babies came out, there were bodies, and that was hard, but it was so beautiful too, because the umbilical cord was like the finest piece of string you could imagine, and it was bright silver. They had fingers and toes, the toenail beds, they had everything, you know, just like a person, they were just small, and they didn't have eyes and skin yet, but everything was there to to let you know they were human.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

And so between that them dancing on the ultrasound screen, and then that that brief moment where I got to hold the bodies in my hand, that that was that connection of meeting my child and and children. So I I forget what I was saying before that, but let me let me interject.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah. What did that moment watching your twins dance in the ultrasound mean to you while you were watching it? And what is the meaning that it's gained since everything that's happened?

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah, so there was a joy there, right? That the babies had no clue what was was happening, you know. We were worried, but they were they were fine, you know. They they had each other, and they were doing what the baby is supposed to do in the womb, you know. When they when they died, I had this vision, because I'm a I'm a Christian. I had a vision of Jesus coming in the womb and grabbing their hands and saying, It's time to go. You know, you can't stay here, but I'm gonna take you to a safe place, a better place. And so that that brought me a lot of peace because they we we lost them, and it it was a devastating way to go. But I believe that that they never knew they were in danger. I think that that they had a sense they were safe and okay, and then right before the end,

Faith And What Fatherhood Becomes

SPEAKER_02 20:30

I just picture Jesus taking their hands and and taking them to a safe place.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

What does going through that do to you as a father psychologically?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

It makes me hold on to everything a little bit tighter. I don't take the the time with my kids for granted. In fact, a prayer I often pray is God, please don't take my children, you know. I'm okay getting cancer, I'm okay, you know. I just lost a sister a couple months ago, and and that was hard, but it was okay, you know, but my children, it's like, God, please not my kids, not my children, God. And and just thankful for every moment and every day I have with them, you know. We we don't we don't know how much time we're gonna have with our kids, and and our kids honestly don't know how much time they have with us. So I try to maximize every every opportunity I have with them to be present and to to make sure they know I love them, you know, just in case something were to happen.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

My condolences for the loss of your sister a couple of months

Memorials And Honoring The Twins

SPEAKER_01 21:50

ago. Have you and your wife found a way to honor the lives of the twins? And if you have, if you don't mind sharing, how did you guys? Do that.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

So in the hospital, we actually talked to a a chaplain that was there at the time, and he prayed for us. He talked to us for a while. And then he told us about this program in Sacramento where this group gets together once a year and basically has a collaborative funeral slash celebration of life remembrance. And that was a very unique experience because unlike most funerals, you know, be it a good friend, your mom, maybe a sibling, we knew everybody was there because we had lost a child. And there was there was hundreds of us. It was outdoors in a garden, and uh and that was just a very beautiful way to remember our children alongside a lot of other families that had gone through the same exact thing.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

We they also gave us a butterfly. They actually gave us two because we had lost two children, and we took our son with us, and he was able to release them into the sky. That was also a beautiful picture as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I have been part of those type of memorial services. I have not attended the ones for pediatric families because I think it's different than for families who have lost an adult family member. I've been to a handful of those, and I can only imagine both the sense of camaraderie, if that's the right word, the sense of horror, being in a space like that, seeing hundreds of other families who know the pain that is very intimate to you and your family. How has your perspective changed? I mean, here you are, military training. You've gone through this horrific event. You're a husband, you're a father. How has Brandon's perspective changed after losing two children?

SPEAKER_02 24:28

I think I grew up a lot through that experience and not just developing as as a father, trying to be a better father, but I think that I'm truly

Anger At Medical Cruelty

SPEAKER_02 24:40

able to understand suffering and and help others through their their grief process. In my life, I've I've lost my parents, I've lost a sibling, I've lost children now, and and and friends. And so I I think I've experienced what most people have experienced as far as suffering and loss. And it's not really to give advice, but just to be with them in the moment and to let them know that they're not alone. Sadly, two of my good friends lost a one-year-old and a two-year-old last year. And so I I had to walk through that with them. And and the one that lost their one-year-old has four other children, but you know, it it doesn't make a difference how many kids you have. It's it's still just as hard. And so that that's been kind of a better suite. You know, it's not a cohort I wanted to be in, but it's the reality, and and I I want to definitely, you know, use that as much as I can to help other people.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

You said something very beautifully there, which resonates a lot with me, and that the image of walking through it with the people who are going through it as well. That summarizes who I am as a person, what I do. I think by listening to the conversation with Ned, you also find out that I'm a chaplain. And so that that summarizes my practice just in general. If you can go back to those uh intense moments, here you are at the hospital with your wife, you hear this particular cry that is different than the labor cry. You're in your own mind. What are the what are the things Brandon is internal voice is saying to Brandon in Brandon's mind?

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Stay calm. No matter what happens, you can get through it. Be there for your wife, she needs you right now. It it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be a journey, but you're not alone and and you can make it.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

How are how have you been able to connect emotionally to these events after having gone through the training, the military training of the synthesizing from these emotional events?

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah, just really realizing it it was a really chaotic thing to go through. And and being being proud of myself for supporting my wife through that time. We we really didn't have anybody else at that particular time because we we lived almost an hour away from any family. And prior to that, we we thought it was really neat to be by our ourselves and you know start our own chapter in a new town. But when we went through that difficulty, not having people around to help was definitely hard. With that being said, I I think I I really stepped up to the plate in caring for my wife, for being a dad to my son, and for supporting her emotionally, physically, mentally in in some cases, as well as my own emotions, you know. So I'm I'm I'm proud of myself for going through that and and bearing that burden.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Were there any things that were particularly helpful to you at the time that someone might have said or referenced that help you walk through the different phases of losing your twins?

SPEAKER_02 28:59

There was a couple that lost their 16-year-old daughter the year prior to that, and that was very unexpected for them. She she crashed her car on the freeway, and she just left their house about five minutes before that on her way to high school. They gave me a book that was really good, and I I can't remember the title of it right now, but that was super helpful and and then their encouragement that they were there and praying for me and really just you know available in case we needed it. Yeah, I I definitely spent a lot of time being angry at the doctor in the ER, in that that group of people in the clinic that nobody did anything. I was grateful to the the fire department, the ambulance that showed up to help us, and the doctor and nurses that that you know were there for that miscarriage and and supported us afterward. And then all the people we've met since that have also lost children and and been supportive as well. I think that that has made that journey a lot more bearable.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Did did the thought ever cross your mind to confront or to call out or to try to just figure out what the hell was all of that about in terms of the doctor who shrugged, the nurse who laughed in your face? I appreciate you saying that you you spent a lot of time being angry. I was gonna ask you about that. And and that time of anger, what were some of the things that you're like, did or did you ever get to that point of just wanting to go back and confront these people?

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Yeah, so the day after I I almost drove back and and chewed them out, told them like we lost her children, you know, we this wasn't I wasn't freaking out for nothing, you know, I wasn't being over-emotional. I I wouldn't say it's their job description to call an ambulance, but I mean if there's an emergency in your building and somebody's desperately asking you for help, I I I honestly don't understand are people that worried about liability, you know, of paying for an ambulance. I I wouldn't question that for a second if somebody needed help, you know, CPR or you know, they're going through their own miscarriage. I'd I'd be doing anything I could to help them. So yeah, that was that was very hard, confusing. I I wrote a couple letters and I didn't send them. I think that

What Helps And What Hurts

SPEAKER_02 32:02

was more for me to to process that. And to be honest, I I did leave a review for their clinic. So I mean there there's a good possibility people lost their jobs over that, you know, which is unfortunate, but I mean, you know, it we definitely weren't getting the care and the help we needed, and I I'd hate for somebody else to to go through that same experience that we did.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah. Was there anything that was said to you that was particularly unhelpful during your moment of grief and loss?

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Oh, yeah. So there was another couple who had lost a child at 20 weeks, and they had us over for dinner, and and we totally expected them to be supportive and helpful. And basically what they said was, it's been a long time since we've seen you. So what's been going on in your life besides the miscarriage? You know, like almost as if it was a soccer game or a graduation, and that was just very insensitive of skipping over that, you know, and and not really asking us if we were okay or offering, you know, any sort of supportive advice. The way they described theirs was almost like, yeah, we went through it, you'll get over it, you know, it'll be fine. And I I think theirs was 40 years ago, but I I think to not realize that this is a very fresh thing that has happened, you know. This was only three months after, and then they they actually brought up some issues we were having, some personal issues, and made that the focus of the conversation. And that's just a really bad time to try to deal with your personal problems with somebody when they're going through grief, you know. And I I don't think that most people would would do that, but I have heard of other people saying things similar that that really didn't help. This will pass, it's not that big of a deal, you know, none of that should be said in the moment. Just how are you? How can I help? I'm here for you. That that's that's the best thing you can say in the in those moments I couldn't agree more.

Trying Again And Ongoing Trauma

SPEAKER_01 34:56

So now that you and your wife, you have lost the twins, what were the conversations like in pursuing another pregnancy and growing the family?

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Yeah, so I I think it took, I'm trying to think how long. So we had our second son in January 2021. So it was probably about nine months until we got pregnant again. And I I think that whole time we were just still kind of in shock, you know. Yeah, we definitely didn't want to go through it again, and that was a real fear of of starting that process and and losing another one. I I think there were a lot of moments during the pregnancy where we were just hyper-vigilant about anything that was going on, and fortunately the pregnancy was very smooth. The baby was super healthy and has just been a very sweet, sweet guy, very easy his whole life. So that's made this way better, you know, than than we could have asked for. I I think it would have been hard to lose another one. It would have been hard to have a child that had a disability or was not good-tempered, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

But yeah, he's he's been a huge blessing to us.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Have you and your wife taken the time to process together what going through this horrific event means to both of you collectively and also individually?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

I think yes and no. We've done couples counseling. I I think that was good for the initial phase of shock and and grief. I think my healing process has been easier, and and I I feel like I'm in a good place now. In a lot of ways, she's still struggling, and I have no idea how to reach her and and help her through that final healing process. We just had a friend lose their eight. They carried a baby full term, but it didn't survive. And this was two months ago, the same week my sister died. And my wife was reliving that whole experience through her friend's loss. And that was so confusing and shocking for me because I thought I thought she was past it, you know. I thought she had dealt with it and and found a resolution. And she would I mean she was panicking, you know, and yeah and hyperventilating. And and I I I really couldn't understand it. I wasn't sure how I could support her in that moment. So that's something we're we're still dealing with years later.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

This is really heavy, Brendan. This is really heavy. But I thank you for reaching out and wanting to share your story. I guess that's I guess that's a question that I'll that I'll ask you. Why is it important for you to share your story?

SPEAKER_02 38:26

I think it's a way of self-expression, you know. Um, it's still not an easy thing to talk about, and it's not necessarily appropriate for a lot of groups. There's a lot of people out there that don't understand it, you know, they they didn't lose a child or they haven't had a miscarriage, so they they don't really have a way to identify with it. And so when when there's somebody else that has gone through that same experience, I want to be able to express my story, but also give the opportunity to to let them share their story or or you know, talk through that. You know, what what are you dealing with? What is your wife dealing

A Dad’s Side Of Pregnancy Loss

SPEAKER_02 39:10

with? You know, you you haven't really shared much about your process in this episode, but could you maybe touch on some of your own experience as well?

SPEAKER_01 39:22

The I think the most well, I can't even say that. I was gonna say the most devastating one. Our third miscarriage was definitely the more visually devastating because it's something that happened here at our house. And getting ready to go to work one morning and hearing my wife call, just like you said about your wife. My wife didn't cry. The way that she called me had a different vibration than any other way she's called me, whether she was happy and sad, or it was just a different ring to her voice. And it communicated horror, it communicated an alarming amount of emotions that my wife typically does not express. I've said it before, I'm the more expressive one in our relationship. And that morning, hearing her voice, I would compare it to you know, running your nails on a chalkboard or something like that. And coming down the stairs and just seeing how in pain she was. And it took me a while to accept that I couldn't do anything, not because I didn't want to do something. There was nothing that I could do. I think and and you tell me if you agree with this or not, we men, our mind does go into how to solve it mode, but because we want to provide something physically. And I know that's a over-generalization, but I think it's a safe one to say. Men typically we want to do something. We want to provide some tangible solution or at least give some form of verbal the the the whatever is comparable to tangibility in in in words. Like that's what we wanna we want to provide. And that was entirely out of my control. That was entirely out of my control. And I stood there paralyzed, and I stood there horrified, and I stood there feeling all sorts of ineptitudes. I mean, I just I just felt like I was worthless and useless at that moment. And my son was upstairs, and so I also had to take him to my in-law's house. Coming back to seeing my wife and all the blood in the bathroom and just how in pain she was, it bothers me even to this day talking about it that I had to leave her home by herself while I went to take my son over to my in-laws. And you know, you said earlier that going through that and not having anyone around was really difficult. And here we are, we had we have people around. My in-laws live 10 minutes away from me by car, but they didn't know we were expecting. So we were going through this as if we might as well had been in the middle of nowhere with no one around.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

So it took a while, man. It took a while to get to this point where I have opened up to talk about my experiences. I don't think I am fully aware of what it all means to me at this point still. But what I what I'm encouraged by is this conversation that we're having now, and I'll tell you why. When I got your email, I ran upstairs and I said to my wife, this guy just emailed me because he heard my conversation on this podcast that I was a guest on. And he said that he wanted to talk to me. That to me was everything. Because this conversation that we're having is not a conversation that is easy to have, number one, because of how connected we are to the experiences. I think it's also a difficult conversation to hear from the perspective of other people, not because they haven't gone through it, but typically people in our position, guys, dads like us, we who have gone through it, we don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

And there are reasons why we don't talk about it, both personal reasons and I I strongly believe societal reasons as well. If moms who had who have gone through miscarriage talk about it, I think for as cringy as those conversations might be, I think the larger society might find a way to tolerate it more. And I think it is a lot more disturbing on the societal level. And this is just me spitting off the top here. The fact that men are actually talking about this thing and we don't know what to really do with it. And I think that there are people who will be very encouraged to hear this conversation, as there will be people who might even forego this conversation just because of the nature of the conversation and the parties involved in having it, you and myself. So to respond more directly to your question, my process, I'm in the middle of my process currently still. My family, my wife and I, we've we're done having children. I have a vasectomy scheduled for next month. We we're we're done having children. And so I have written about my experience. I've been talking more about my experience, all as a way to discover the things that I need to discover, to make meaning of it, or to make more meaning of it, and to also just blow the lid off of the perception that or whatever societal cap there is that has prevented men to open up and really talk about this stuff. Because here is what here is what's startling to me. You've attended, unfortunately, a memorial service as a result of the loss of your twins. You were in the presence of hundreds of other dads in particular. I'm zooming in on the dads, and hundreds of other dads who know a pain that you also know. My question to you is how many conversations have you had, with the exception of the ones that you just mentioned? But how frequent are those conversations that you've been able to have with other dads who have gone through what you've gone through?

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Yeah, I think at least once every year since we've lost our our children. Right after the miscarriage, I met with a dad who hadn't lost a child, and and he was incredibly supportive. He he cried with me and everything, and he was the one that just lost his full-term baby. And so that was that was interesting to watch him, you know, years ago being with me, supporting me, not knowing that he was gonna go through the same loss. And and so that yeah, that that really spoke to me, I think. And I and you know, he he he invited me over. We we actually made a memorial like natural playground for children, and he he named it after his son that he lost. Um that was yeah, incredible. But you know, when we were having that conversation years ago, he had no idea he was gonna go through that, and so I I definitely believe that I'm I'm impacting other people through those conversations, and then I I think it's also a way to heal, you know, for both you and I engaging like this. We can both speak into each other's stories, and again, it's not giving advice. I'm not I'm not telling you what books to read, I'm not telling you how to cope, but just listening to you and you listening to me, I think, is a powerful way to engage and and healing.

Naming Taylor And Jaden

SPEAKER_01 48:25

I've been holding back from asking this question, but I'm gonna ask it. Did you and your wife get to the point of naming your twins? And if you wouldn't mind sharing your twins' names?

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Yeah, so we we didn't get a chance to fully discover what gender they were. So we named them Taylor and Jaden, because those names are can be boy or girl. We're both pretty convinced they were boys. So I I consider myself a father of five boys, and and you know, we we still consider them our children, you know. Uh just because they didn't make it the full term doesn't mean they didn't live. They had a heartbeat, they danced, and and someday we look forward to meeting them again.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

And conversation with your three living children, have you introduced them to their siblings who are not here?

SPEAKER_02 49:22

I think there will definitely be that moment. The the two-year-old and the six-month-old obviously probably wouldn't really understand. I think my four-year-old will, and I I look forward to having that conversation with him. And there may be a part of him that remembers, you know, mommy's tummy being big and then not big, but no babies, you know.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Or that that time when mommy was in bed and couldn't hang out with him. There there probably is something there that we really don't know about. So I think having that conversation someday will will close that loop for him in his own journey.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

I'm not really sure, Brendan, how to bring this conversation to a landing point because it just feels like I don't know. I don't I can't put into words what it feels like for me in the moment. Honestly, I feel like I'm back at work with families who are, you know, with a family who's going through this. And even there professionally, there are times where I know I need to exit the room, but there's just something that I can't leave the room yet. And that's that's what I'm feeling. That's what I'm feeling right now. So I'm not rushing to end our conversation, but I also know that I can't stay in this space too much longer. You know what I mean? It's it's yeah. So I am going to shut my mouth and I am going to give you whatever final words you feel are adequate for this moment.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

Yeah, yeah. Well, honestly, I was hoping for some advice on maybe how you've helped your wife or where she's at, you know, is is she still struggling just as much as my wife is, you know. I don't know how long it's been for you guys. But that aside, I would just say that yeah, there's there's no real time limit on grief. I don't think anybody needs to be needs to man up and try to get over it, get past it. I know people that lost children 20 years ago that still feel that grief. And so I I think there's nothing wrong with carrying that with you and and using it as you will throughout your life.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

Thank you for those words. Just to respond to what you just mentioned in terms of your wife, I think what you just said as these last words is the approach that I would have said to you, and I will reiterate

A New Way To Hold Grief

SPEAKER_01 52:08

to you now. I've come to describe grief as a okay, have you seen the movie? This is uh this is an old school movie, but uh A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe. Sounds familiar. He is remind me. He is playing the role of a brilliant mathematician who ends up having hallucinations and as a result of of his brilliance. I mean, he quite honestly a beautiful mind. But he ended up having hallucinations, and his hallucinations were so real that the characters that he saw led him to behave in really dangerous and scary ways. And so as he discovered that, and and his wife, he and his wife and you know, his colleagues discovered that, he went into treatment and medication and he had a near mental breakdown the whole nine. But he eventually got those hallucinations under control. He didn't stop having them. He recognized what they were and found a way to still thrive, to still live, to still do things and achieve. And I think he ended up being nominated and being a recipient of uh a Nobel Peace Prize and for his uh mathematics uh uh achievements. And in the movie with Russell Crowe, there is the scene where he is much older now and he is uh celebrating his uh son's graduation. Now his children are adult children, and he is celebrating their graduation and off in a distance there are the four actors that play the characters that he's hallucinated the whole movie and they're still dressed the same way and whatnot. And so he is talking to his family, he's an older man now, and I think he's fixing his son's tie or something like that, and then he looks off in a distance, and the four characters are just kind of standing there, staring back at him, and so he stares off in a distance. I think it's the wife or the son who asks him, Hey dad, are you okay? Are you are you seeing something? Because they're thinking, Oh no, here we go again. And the way his response is like, No, I'm okay, giving the indication like I acknowledge the thing that I'm seeing, but the relationship to that is different now. I've taken that as a template to talk about to make sense of grief for me. It will always be there. Uh uh. Like these characters who represent the hallucination of the Russell Crowe character, they'll always be there. There was a moment where it was so intense that that relationship was so close, it was really difficult to uh parse out what was real, what was fiction in light of the movie and the character. And and it's just like grief. It's so fresh, it's so real, it feels tangible even. And it affects how that person who is experiencing that grief, that loss, that pain lives their day-to-day. And especially when it's a loss, that loss will never be replaced. You could have, I tell people this all the time, you could have a hundred kids after the loss of one child. Those hundred will never replace that one child.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

So that's a loss that you always have. Over time, I think what can happen is the relationship to that loss, to that void changes. Because we change as people. It doesn't mean that the loss stops being any less impactful. It doesn't mean that it stops being any less meaningful, it doesn't mean that it stops hurting any less. But the relationship changes. And in a way, what I see and how I think about it is that uh loss is no longer threatening to me. Now I've turned it into a companion.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

And that companion is just gonna go along with me wherever I go. And there will be times when circumstances happen that is going to make me remember how ugly that companion and how intense that companion felt. And then there are times when I will sit quietly reading a book and the companion will be right there next to me. But it won't have that same dynamic, that same relation.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

That process is different for everyone. There might even be a time where you can look at that companion off in a distance because there will feel like there's now a some distance between me and this grief, me and this loss, me and this absence. But whether or not that happens, the relationship changes. So how to support your wife through that, brother, I don't know. But I think if that means if anything that I said means anything to you, a good paradigm to have would be checking in on your wife and asking what's the relationship between you and this absence uh today? Yeah. And supporting her through that.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

And the next day, or the next moment, or the next panic attack, or the next hyperventilation, or the next loss, or the next movie, or the next memory, or the next what's that relationship? And how can I support you through that?

SPEAKER_02 57:57

That's great. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

No, man, thank you. Thank you for reaching out. Thank you for not being shy about opening up about your experience.

How To Reach Brandon

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Thank you for wanting to talk about this uh so openly and transparently. And man, my hope is that someone will reach out to you after hearing your conversation on this podcast and say, Hey, Brandon, I need to I need to connect with you. So, in the event that in order to facilitate that, I should say, how can listeners reach out to you?

SPEAKER_02 58:35

Yeah, um I'll go ahead and give out my email if that sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Sounds perfect.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

And uh, and please just reach out. I'm uh open book, as you just heard, and I I will listen as patiently as Kelly just did. So my email is B Y R N E S 0002 at Yahoo.com. And yes, please, please write me if you want to. Um, we can chat through email, on the phone, whatever you want to do. But I'd I'd definitely love to talk to you and and hear your story.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

Do you have any social media platforms that you're on and would you be willing to share that as well?

SPEAKER_02 59:22

I'm on all of them, but I've uh walked away from social media um just to try to to be present more with my family and and stay involved in other things. So unfortunately, I could give you the information, but um I probably would not respond uh that way.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

So the more direct way is the email address. Yes, awesome, Brandon. Again, thank you, my friend, and I am wishing you and your family all the best, particularly your wife, as she still is working through this loss so many years later. Thank you for being brave and sharing your story, and yeah, I that that's all I can say. That's all I can say right now, man. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

Thank you. I really appreciate the conversation.