The Loving Truth

Navigating Faith and Divorce

• Sharon Pope • Episode 83

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How do you navigate divorce when you have a strong faith (and a strong desire for the “traditional” family)? What happens when you divorce “the nice guy” and become the villain? 

Today on the podcast, I’m speaking with special guests Noam Raucher & Leeron Tal, co-hosts of The Jewish Divorce Podcast, about their personal journeys through divorce, plus the different ways men & women interpret confrontation and “fighting,” why we so often feel unprepared for the reality of marriage, and the additional pressures of marriage (and divorce) when you have a strong faith.

You’ll also hear us talk about what makes a marriage “successful” (besides longevity) and what Noam and Leeron wish they’d known before going through divorce… 

“As a Rabbi, I have to remind myself and the people I serve: Our ‘mistakes’ make us more human.” - Noam Raucher

You'll Learn:

2:44 - “Everything in my life was great… except my marriage.” 
6:45 - Her a-ha moment happened when she realized: Her kids were scared 
11:31 - Marriage felt like his next “right” step
15:01 - He was surprised when his ex asked for a divorce
17:02 - Men & women perceive confrontation (and fighting) differently 
21:02 - What it feels like to “wobble” in your decision
26:16 - The pressure of marriage & divorce when you have a strong faith 
30:55 - When you’re going through divorce & it feels too hard to talk with other couples
34:10 - We need a new ‘success’ marker than longevity… 
37:01 - What do Noam & Leeron wish they’d known before divorce
39:54 - More information about The Jewish Divorce Project podcast (& more!)

Struggling to decide whether to stay or go in your marriage and you’re serious about finding that answer?

Book a Truth & Clarity Session with a member of my team. We’ll discuss where you are in your marriage and explore if there’s a fit for you and I to work together so you can make - and execute - the RIGHT decision for YOU and your marriage.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Loving Truth Podcast, where it's all about finding clarity, confidence and peace in the face of marriage challenges. And now your host relationship expert and certified Master Life Coach, sharon Pope. Hello, loves, this is Sharon Pope, and this is the Loving Truth. I want to welcome you today because I have two special guests that I am anxious to share with you, so let me introduce them.

Speaker 1:

Noam Rauscher is an ordained rabbi, educator and international executive director for the Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs. As a coach, noam focuses in no particular order I like that on healthy masculinity, spiritual growth, relationships and divorce. His background comes from extensive work and experience as a guide and counselor to thousands of individuals, all walking different paths. When he's not coaching, he is either playing with his kids, hiking trails around Southern California, enjoying the beach, podcasting at the Jewish Divorce Project, and Jews with tattoos, which sounds super interesting to me.

Speaker 1:

Lerone comes from an eclectic background, working in the entertainment, public relations, marketing, special events and community development. When seeing so many marriages fall apart during her or around her, in 2021, during the pandemic, she decided to study and become a certified divorce coach through the International Divorce Coach Center of Excellence. Lerone started my Divorce Concierge in August of 2022. She provides a service she wished she had for herself in the beginning stages of her challenging divorce in 2018. Utilizing her child development training, lerone helps her clients focus on what's best for their children and how to create the life they want and deserve. She lives in Burbank with her two young boys and she's involved in community in the community, running groups for solo mothers, which I love.

Speaker 1:

I think that's super cool. All right, welcome. Welcome to my beautiful community. I can't wait for them to hear from you. They hear from me all the time, so it's good to get some other voices in here. Yeah, all right. Well, I would love for each of you to be able to share your stories. I think there are always some similarities when we go through a divorce, but then they're always very personal too, so share whatever you're comfortable with, but I would love to just sort of hear the background of your marriage and your divorce and where you're at today.

Speaker 2:

Ladies first.

Speaker 1:

Let's do it. Let's start with you.

Speaker 3:

All right. Well, thank you so much for having us. Yeah, the whole idea of stay or go was a huge theme in my experience. I was 28 when I met my ex and he was seven years older than me. He was ready to get married. I was like he was ready to get married. I was like I could get married now. I could wait, you're the one, let's do it. We got married in 2018 and were hit with a recession immediately, which was a really tough start for a marriage. So not knowing how your partner would react in a stressful situation like that, when your support systems are gone with work and family, brought out a lot of very interesting personality traits and behaviors that we didn't know about. Um, I went into hustle mode. He went into freeze mode, um, which was very unattractive to me, I guess you would say um, so things kind of started out real, real rocky.

Speaker 3:

We got pregnant a year after we got married. Everything kind of changed real fast and so we were struggling for a while. But then things got better with work. I got a new job, we moved and I kept kind of looking at our marriage and thinking how can I judge our marriage when we're not at our best? I didn't feel it was fair. I felt this underlying feeling of like something doesn't feel right. We would fight hard and and you know my ex would say things to me like this is normal, couples fight. I hadn't been in a long, really long relationship before him been in a long really long relationship before him.

Speaker 3:

So for me usually the fight was the breakup. Oh right, I never. So he would constantly remind me, like you're just used to running, this is normal. Couples fight. This is how it is, and so I kind of really was hopeful and kept at it. Right, my parents are happily married for 45 years and they are really amazing example. I didn't grow up seeing them fight in all honesty and he would tell me like that's rare, that's not real life, that's not how things are, and so there was a lot of this kind of and I would talk to my girlfriends and everybody complained about their husbands.

Speaker 3:

So I had this feeling of like I guess this is how it's supposed to be, you got to suck it up and deal with it, right. And then we had our second child. We were both working and I was like, okay, it seems like we're in a good place. The problems kept happening, whether no matter where we moved to, no matter how many children we had. And when my son was my younger son was about a year old, things just became so evident because everything in my life was really great, my job was wonderful, I felt really good about where I was with Fred, everything. And it was just this toxic piece in my life that was literally bringing out the worst in me and we went. We were in counseling together for about four years, consistently. We really, really consistently.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 3:

Really really dry, yeah, and we weren't have, there was zero intimacy in our relationship anymore and you know we'd be in counseling and it was like I just was mad at him all the time. I didn't feel like having any kind of intimate affairs, Anyway. So for the first four years I was really toying with should we make this work? And I would go, I would have these moments of like I'm done, and then when I would start thinking about the details, where would I live? What would we do? What if there was another woman around my kids?

Speaker 3:

my kids were little, so knowing the thought of that was enough to just talk myself out of it oh yeah as long as I saw that the kids were fine, I was like I'll just take it, he's not nice to me, but I'll take it. You know, um and and taking full responsibility. I had a very nice day to be there.

Speaker 3:

Right, you weren't um in a good place not at your best, as you said no, and it took that one big fight where our final kind of moment where, um the kids, I saw them scared and they were in their room while we were fighting and I went in their room and saw my little one sitting, he wet his bed and the other one, the older one, was in fetal position, crying, and instantly that was my, my aha moment, you know it's kind of the same feeling like when you meet someone and you know, you know it was literally the same feeling on its way out.

Speaker 3:

That was it for me, seeing my kids really struggling for me to which is really sad that it wasn't enough for me to do what's best for my happiness. But in my situation that's that's where I was. And from that moment on I knew and I talked to our counselor and I went in for a session by myself and I was like I need to figure out how to end this. And she was like okay, from now on we're working on your exit plan. And she was like I'm really, thank God you're here. And I was like like she knew all along, but she couldn't push me either way Cause she was a pro marriage counselor.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 3:

And um, then I spent months kind of just working this out and I really tried to get it to be a mutual decision. But I was dealing with someone who, when I would say things like I'm not happy, our marriage, it feels hopeless, I think we, you know, he would say of course we're happy we have a literal white picket fence we have a minivan like, so there wasn't a way for us to get on the same page um and once I made that decision and was checked out, we didn't fight anymore.

Speaker 3:

It was the conversations were like did you feed the dog, did you? You know, take out the trash. It was very transactional and in his mind. We were great because we weren't fighting um. So when I did, three months later, just come out and say I want a divorce, I had never used the word divorce ever in our marriage before.

Speaker 3:

It was like the rug pulled out from underneath him. How could you do that? Why and I at this point I was just like there was literally nothing you could say or do that? Would change my mind. Um, and I yeah, my life, our lives, improved very much. So after that, I know I made the right decision, but being the one to make the decision from a guy, that is a nice guy yes to everybody on the outside um, I was very much the villain, um that was breaking up the marriage and it was.

Speaker 1:

It was really hard and to a life that that looked pretty good from the outside looking in yeah, yeah, yeah, we were.

Speaker 3:

we looked great from the outside and, um, the insides were all broken and um, he wasn't really able to see that, um, but it was kind of that. I had voiced my concern that I had tried for so many years, and so I felt really confident that I feel like we tried. I tried everything and at that point, when he wanted to keep trying, it was like it was too late.

Speaker 1:

I mean four years in consistent. I mean four years in consistent therapy is like that is really giving it some concerted effort. You know, a lot of times people will go to counseling like once or twice and they're like oh, it didn't work, like they're expecting magic to happen in a few times, right?

Speaker 3:

So that's. At one point it was just like I'm not the problem, you're the problem, I'm done, and I continued going to therapy and that's when I really started understanding what it is I want out of life and and, um, yeah, what I deserve.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I bet your story resonates with so many women. Yeah, because it's super common, and even the stories about you know the your kids and seeing your kids scared. I think we'll do things for our children that we often won't do for ourselves and that'll, you know, wake us up sometimes.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, but we're both happy now. He's remarried, he's got a baby, he sees the kids a lot more than he did when we were together. Um, and it's been a rough, you know, post-divorce relationship, but we've finally reached a pretty good place six years later.

Speaker 1:

Wow, all right. All right, well, we'll get to that. We'll probably hear something about that too. All right, noam, I want to hear from you as well. I always love the male perspective of this.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you, and I echo Lerone's remarks. Thank you for having us on this show with you. It's really excited to be here. My story is somewhat similar to Lerone's in the sense that, you know, we got married late in our 20s, which was a little bit delayed, you know, for a lot of people in the community, uh, and there was something that was also just kind of smooth and easy about it. That was also. This is just kind of what we're supposed to be doing, and it felt that way, particularly, I think, in the rabbinic community right in the jewish community, which is you get married at a young age, or at least mid-20s or so, and you just kind of move off in that direction and you start your life, uh, and as a rabbi, it felt particularly natural in that way too.

Speaker 2:

I mean, as I look back on it now, there was a certain amount of reticence I had, but I didn't attribute that to be anything more than you know me just kind of being nervous about a relationship or this next stage, and just thought, you know, you just got to get past it, you just got to get over it. Right, you feel this way with anyone, and so we went on doing our lives like that, like it was just that simple. This is what you're supposed to do. You get married, you have kids, you have your job, your move, like all those systematic things.

Speaker 2:

You buy a house, yes, uh, and we also had our first kid uh literally the night before our one year anniversary like we spent in the hospital room on her bed like holding the baby, and it was a beautiful thing. But when you think about it, that time in between doesn't give you a lot to really kind of build your relationship with someone else and you don't really get a chance to really learn about each other in the process, all the stuff that you should have been doing. You know dating, yes, and getting to know someone and we tried. I remember even before we got married I suggested let's go to a therapist just to see if they can give us some tools right For what marriage is like, good for you.

Speaker 2:

I grew up in a home, thank you. I grew up in a home where my parents are still married 50 years now. But they fought and I was witness to some of it and there were some tears on my part when I would see my parents fight right, much like Leroy describes her, children in the fetal position are crying as a result of hearing their parents fight. I was one of those kids too and grew up learning that you know contention and people having confrontation with one another in marriage is just kind of natural right. It really is.

Speaker 3:

And my parents have found a way to really make it work Like.

Speaker 2:

Those are the people that they are, and so it's been a marriage for them. It's been good for them in the ways that it's been good for them. Right, it may not be good for me or it may not be what I necessarily want, but it is what works for them. And that was the example that I also had that couples fight and they figure out a way to get through it and, if anything, they fight hard but they stick together because there's something greater than that and you just kind of move forward through life that way. My ex didn't like the fighting right. Neither did I. Frankly, that we had but I also don't think she grew up with a lot of it. You know her parents divorced at a young age and that was just kind of the story that she had.

Speaker 2:

The point at which we got divorced was a difficult point personally in my life. You know we had moved out to California at that point and I had lost my job a couple years into that move and I was depressed and didn't really know what to do. So I wasn't really the best representation of myself. That doesn't mean it's all on me, right. It doesn't mean that I caused the divorce.

Speaker 2:

Necessarily, there was probably a lot brewing right underneath that prior to that, but that was certainly probably the straw that broke the camel's back. And I was also surprised in some way when my ex asked for a divorce, because I thought, look, we're just trying to get through it, right, we're taking it one step at a time. We're trying to do this like a lot of people do. Right, this is kind of what happens in American marriage and society. Right, your marriage goes through dry spells, you fight with each other, someone's unemployed or something like that. You just find a way to make it work. And that was really it, and I think, ultimately, what it was is that she and I just weren't really emotionally prepared for it.

Speaker 2:

We weren't emotionally prepared for marriage is what I mean. It takes a lot really to love someone through challenging times and wanting to be able to like go through those moments with them. I remember early on in our marriage and my first job and my first pulpit, we were over in Charlotte, north Carolina, and we did a video conference with our therapist because we needed some assistance at the time and we thought he was the most familiar person to us and one of the things that he pointed out is that you guys have had a lot of major life moments in a very short period of time, right, which A causes stress but also means that you need to figure out a way to deal with them. So you know, I had become a rabbi, we had had a kid, we had moved across the country to start new jobs those are all big things, yeah and so those were bringing out the worst in us in some ways, because we were just under such pressure and, speaking just individually, we weren't capable of handling that pressure as individuals. We hadn't matured enough to that point.

Speaker 2:

And then in our marriage it just wasn't mature enough to really kind of deal with those stressors. So much so that we found a way to love each other and support each other through it rather than kind of push each other apart, and it just broke down after that. I think you know there was really no effort really there in it to want to make the marriage work, and I could understand why my ex asked for a divorce in that way. Would I have liked to pursue it differently and keep the family together and figure out a way to make it work? Yes, but that wasn't in the cards and so it was just a matter of acceptance and, you know, learning from it and going through it ultimately in that way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, so both of you have mentioned that there was there was fighting in the marriage or confrontation in the marriage, and I find that women are very we don't like confrontation. Like I know now, cause I'm in my second marriage, there are times that I think we're fighting and my husband does not think we're fighting. He's like we're not fighting because he grew up with like there were four boys in his family, no girls. So like unless you're throwing punches, I guess you're not fighting. I don't know, but like any kind of raised voice to me is like oh, we're fighting. Do you find that as well?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, it's a very good question I couldn't honestly answer it. Yeah, I mean, I think I would have to have someone come at me in an angry way, right, that was really obvious for me to know that we were in a fight. Otherwise, like, what are we really talking about here? And I don't know that means that. I'm desensitized, but I would at least expect someone to be like no, this really pisses me off. At least if they could articulate it that way and be specific about it.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think, if you're oh, go ahead, Lerone.

Speaker 3:

No, I was going to say I was in a situation where there was a lot of like gaslighting, so it was really hard because I would bring something up and he would respond in a way, and then I'd get, I'd react.

Speaker 3:

And then it was like you're crazy, why are you fighting with me? Why are you thinking, fighting? And so I was in this constant like am I insane? Am I really? Uh, overreacting, like a constant feeling of doubt when I know that my got, my concerns and my, my requests were valid, you know. But it was at the time really hard to understand that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think you know, even if you think about how you know, little boys and girls are socialized very differently. Like boys are they welcome conflict. It's just a little competitive nature. It's fine, you know where girls are like be the good girl, be the nice girl, you know, share your toys, all that kind of stuff. So I think that ends up showing up sometimes in our relationship.

Speaker 3:

I do have to say I think I'm sorry. Go ahead, mom.

Speaker 2:

No, no, no, don't apologize, please, leroy.

Speaker 3:

I was going to say I think I realized because, like I said, I wasn't in a long relationship really before my ex and he proposed after seven months of us meeting.

Speaker 1:

So and then, it was like wedding planning mode and um.

Speaker 3:

So that year was just all about the wedding and a lot of the issues came from his family, his mother, um, there was a lot of outside things that were involved that were bringing a lot of stress to us, but I didn't know how to properly fight with someone, so I would, when we would argue, I would immediately get scared and be like this isn't normal, we shouldn't be doing this, this isn't right, um, and it wasn't until I had my first relationship out after my marriage where I actually learned I was with someone who fought in an adult way and she had, like. I never knew what makeup sex was. I never knew what it was like to make up and recover from a fight and I just realizing that fighting can actually fighting and resolving the fight can actually make you closer and you learn a lot.

Speaker 3:

I hadn't had any of that experience, um, in my marriage so that was a piece that I never, that I'm learning now yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's like where was that class learning how to fight productively so that you can repair and come back together? Didn't get that?

Speaker 2:

that's the irony right there. There's so many marriage making, marriage work type programs, uh, and I never heard of one of them that teaches you how to actually fight fairly in that way. Right, that's a real kind of intense thing. They talk about balancing the checkbook. They talk about dividing up the responsibilities. Maybe they talk about what stress happens right and how to deal with in-laws. But, as far as I know, they don't cover really the idea of fighting fairly Right.

Speaker 1:

Right, oh, my goodness, all right. So we have inside the community. Right, oh, my goodness, all right. So we have inside the community. We call this the wobble. They're like, maybe we can work it out, maybe we, maybe we should try again, should we? And so we go like when we're in that stay or go decision, or even when we think we've made the decision, but then we're like, oh, maybe we should try again. He seems really heartfelt or she seems like she did. Either of you wobble, no, I am I, I definitely did you did yeah

Speaker 2:

I mean I there was a I was in this position of wanting to keep my family together but also needing to prepare for divorce.

Speaker 2:

So it was kind of like one foot in, one foot out, uh, and that was a real difficult position to be in.

Speaker 2:

I mean it it there were certain parts about it that were really helpful for me, just in terms of kind of getting life back on track, getting into a healthier routine of things, being more productive about things, and at the same time, it was draining on both ends because I didn't really know what direction we were moving in and I didn't know really kind of like how much power to put into each either one of those things. Right, like how serious do I go in divorce? Right, if we're going to, just if I'm still working for us to stay together, and if we're I'm working for us to stay together, why am I fighting also for myself and divorce? So there was kind of like this, you know push and pull that I was having a lot of difficulty with and eventually just got to the point of this isn't going to work, right, we're not going to get, we're not going to stay married, right, and so now I need to focus entirely on divorce.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I'm yeah what were you going to say Laura?

Speaker 3:

No, my wobble was really about not so much should I stay with him or not, or does our relationship have what it takes? I was pretty pretty, I was pretty clear there. It was more about we didn't have divorce in our family and so and I didn't even have very many friends we were like the, we were the trendsetters. We didn't have any friends that were divorced. So for me it was like is this better than being divorced? Is staying in an unhealthy relationship better than putting my kids through divorce, which was so foreign to me? Are we going to be that family with two homes? Is it going to really screw up my kids? They're not going to have the same child that I had. What is that going to look like? You know? And I mean, I think, just that experience of. I mean, with COVID, we all got to see our kids go through distance learning and now it's like we raised children going through something that we never went through.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

And that was a really hard thing for parents and I think that's was my wobble with the divorce was like I'm entering something I don't know anything about. How am I supposed to help?

Speaker 1:

them. Oh yeah, I really recognize. I identify with what you're talking about because I have. I came from a large Catholic family where no one had been divorced except for my grandfather. I think my grandfather had been married like seven or eight times after he lost his first wife my grandmother and then he was just going through trying to find women. I guess I don't know what happened there. But like I have a huge family and no one else had been divorced but me, and so it was a little foreign and they all got really quiet. They didn't know what to do with that or how to support me. Really I imagine yeah.

Speaker 1:

yeah, I did feel like a black sheep, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Well, it's the feeling of like, what are people going to think? I realized how much I didn't realize how much I cared what people thought about me until I was in that moment, because I was a bad guy for people who knew me well and my family were actually very relieved when I told them we were getting a divorce, and I was very surprised at how many people saw how unhappy I was and knew that we weren't good for each other, but never said anything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

That was surprising, but there was so many people who you know assumed there was someone else or you know made assumptions of why I would end this marriage.

Speaker 1:

It's so interesting. Right in every story it's like there's got to be a hero and a villain. So we got to figure out all right, you're the one asking for this change, and this change makes me uncomfortable. So therefore, congratulations, you're the, you're the villain well, that's the real complexity of relationships, right?

Speaker 2:

Is that, like, hardly anyone is ever really the villain, unless it's in like a completely objective scenario, right? We're completely one-sided and marriages and relationships are always two-way streets and you're always contributing something to it anywhere, because the pointing fingers doesn't help. Someone always is on the defensive right, and someone's then going to point a finger at you as a result, and then you're just back and forthing it and that doesn't help either. So the real question is how can you both take responsibility for it and then also not kill each other in the process and still find a way to move forward?

Speaker 1:

Right, right. So I'm super curious about you know, the fact that you're a rabbi. I mean maybe you have greater pressure on you, I don't know. But I think many times if you're a person of any kind of faith, you have that struggle with. But I made this promise, I made this commitment. So I'm curious. I mean, I guess you don't have anything to compare it to, whether it's more or less struggle or more or less pressure, but, like, what was your experience with? You know, coming to terms with divorce and your faith?

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, that's a really good question. There was certainly a big element of failure on my part of feeling like, uh, I was a rabbi and helping people get through marriages and marry them off, uh, without really knowing how to do it myself, um, feeling like I was flying blind in that way, and so there was a level of failure and embarrassment that came with it because I felt like I was a rabbi who, you know, want the jewish tradition, that was guided by the Jewish tradition and also was very much raised on the idea of wanting a family, like that was a goal of mine.

Speaker 2:

I you know the mornings which I would wake up at 5 am to go for a run. In my earlier, younger and more energetic days, uh, you know, while I was still waking up, I would kind of have these visions of what's all this working to, and it was really just the idea of having a family and so in that regard, the, the failure was heavy. Uh. And then it was also a matter of how am I supposed to really kind of help other people navigate through marriage if I can't make it work myself? Can I even perform marriages as being someone who's divorced? Not the sense that like I'm unqualified, but the sense that like I'm tainted in some way.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

Look at me and be like you can't even hold your own marriage together. How can you even send us off on our first days? And there were, and I got past that right. I mean I just kind of had to because those were more in my head than there were anything else. There's a beautiful story in the Jewish tradition, you know, you learn, of Aaron, moses's brother, who makes mistakes, particularly in allowing the people to build the golden calf when they're standing at the foot of Mount Sinai Right A big bad moment for the Jewish people where God gets angry, where Moses gets angry, and it's considered a major failing on Aaron's part. And then there's another part in the Torah, the Hebrew Bible, where Aaron is asked to take on major responsibility and he wonders why he should even do that right, because he's made a big mistake, because he's been a failure and in fact what our tradition teaches is that's exactly what he's made right those mistakes make us more human.

Speaker 2:

They make us more complete in that way, and I thought, if anything, that's my inspiration, my point of purpose, when it does come to being a rabbi and offering marriage and relationship as a guiding principle for people, because I've been through it, through this complete process. There are a lot of rabbis out there whose marriages have never failed, so they've never known what it's like to be on the other side of it, they've never known what it's like to learn from that failure and they've never learned how to really survive that sort of thing and to know that it's actually pretty darn normal, right, divorce is as old as marriage is. Right, it comes up in the Torah and the Hebrew Bible right, on a frequent basis. And that's because, since the beginning of time, couples have been messing up their relationship. So it's not a new thing. Couples have been messing up the relationship, so it's not a new thing. Uh, and I realized that's what I had made for.

Speaker 2:

I was made for, uh, and there was one particular moment where I was doing the wedding, um, and I got really jealous and upset and sad too. I was standing there underneath the chuppah and, um, the bride hadn't even come in yet. Um, it was the groom who was coming in, but he did this thing where, like, he was dancing down the aisle right, he was dancing before his yes, he was dancing before her family and the whole idea was that, like he had like spoken about this. It was like, in there the program, right, that he was going to be dancing down the aisle as a way of creating this beautiful and energetic space for his bride to be.

Speaker 2:

Uh, and I thought you know that guy's got it right, like there's something in his head, like he's on track, uh, and why couldn't I do that? Why couldn't I think in that same way? Um, you know, that's a different story, right, that his, that's his way of doing it. It doesn't mean that mine is in any way less right or that mine is a failure, but that there can be different ways that I can rebound from it and there can be different ways that I can find joy and then eventually find a way to dance down the aisle again. And so that came to be kind of my full circle moment, where I was able to really kind of leave the sense of failure behind and move on to a place of completeness in the process.

Speaker 1:

Wow, wow, that's amazing. Liron, did you have struggles, specifically as it related to your faith?

Speaker 3:

um, not so much my faith, but I was at the time, um, I was a director of a preschool, early childhood center at a synagogue for 10 years, and while and so I was immersed in the community, as was my as a family, as well and when we were going through the divorce, you, you know, I was in the business of working with these new young families and I was.

Speaker 3:

You know, in a sense there were times that I was like a therapist to them when they'd be sitting in my office and we'd be talking about their children's behaviors. I was always very compassionate and understanding, you know, able to really redirect and talk about their kids. But when I was going through the time of knowing I was getting a divorce and all of the turmoil and I was really trying to keep it to myself, it definitely was hard for me. I acted out in the sense of, you know, I had a really hard time sitting with a couple and they would start, you know, we'd be talking about potty training and next thing, you know, the wife is saying things like well, if, you were home or, uh, you would be if you.

Speaker 3:

They have all these passive, aggressive, you know arguments and I didn't have it in me as much to to be as compassionate and I'd say things like if you guys aren't counseling, you should be in counseling. And I would spend these parent-teacher conferences in my mind being like, oh, my god, why doesn't he leave her? Or oh, they're not gonna make. I became very cynical of marriage and happy couples and I literally had to like, tell my executive director, like, or tell the president of the synagogue like I don't know if I should be in the business of working with families right now. I'm not in a good place. I'm trying not to be judgy, but I'm having a really hard time.

Speaker 3:

And I actually transitioned into a new role. They made me executive director. I was like I think I can't. This is not good for me right now. So I really struggled in just my environment of being around these happy families and they were all. I was just sitting here going oh god, you have no idea what you guys are in for you. Just, you have a two-year-old. You're just getting started. For the thoughts in my mind and it was like it just I hated that. I was feeling that way, but I had a really hard time, um, yeah, in that environment and it was a Jewish community and it was, you know, we definitely my being that I worked there. The community stayed with me and you know their father. Once we were going through the divorce he still had to come and pick up the kids and see all the teachers glaring at him who were my employees and like it wasn't easy, you know. So we felt it in a community sense.

Speaker 3:

Um, and yeah, I mean, I think, one of the hardest parts honestly my grandmother, who is turning 90 this year um, she played a part in setting us up and the guilt that she had. I had to spend so much time and energy constantly being like it's not your fault, it's's okay, you know. Like she felt like it was her fault that she introduced me to the wrong guy or something.

Speaker 1:

Oh gosh, so now grandma's feeling like a failure that was the Jewish guilt I got.

Speaker 1:

I just feel like you know we've got to get better at. We need a new marker for what success in marriage looks like. Or it's not just longevity, because otherwise there's so many people that will say the same words of like I feel like a failure. I feel like I failed because the only marker is until death, like that's success as opposed to happy. Or we brought new life into this world because we were brave enough to love each other. Or, you know, we overcame some real challenges in our life, like when I went through losing a job or depression, or moving across the country, all those things you know.

Speaker 2:

We stood by each other through that and rarely did people talk about it so publicly and articulately. Right, I mean Rone mentions how you know she knew that a bunch of her friends right, her female friends were having difficulties in their marriage, that they were upset at their husbands for some reason.

Speaker 2:

I wonder how deep those conversations get you know in a public sphere, so much so that a lot of people can feel almost normalized by it, right, and know that like there is a toolkit for it, that like this is something that people deal with on a regular basis and you're not weird for for it, so it's okay to talk about it and there is a way through it.

Speaker 2:

And the irony is is that faith-based communities really should be those spaces where you can right, like I get it like a therapist office is the safest space, right, because it's you two and it's the therapist and it's a trained professional.

Speaker 2:

But what really normalizes it for people is knowing that their other friends are going through it and the fact that we're so silent about it because there's this taboo of if there's problems in your marriage or that your marriage falls apart, that you're this black sheep, right, there's something wrong with you really impacts more people than we think. Yes, because it doesn't give a chance to really talk about it, it doesn't give us a chance to feel whole or normal and it doesn't really give us the tools we need to really survive. And so that would be really interesting if, like a synagogue or a church or whatever right at faith based community of any kind, gathered couples together and said, okay, we want you to be real for a moment. Right, we're going to take 10 couples and you're all going to tell us, like the worst things that's going on in your marriage, and we're not going to judge each other, but we're all going to raise our hands and say I'm going through it too.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, to really sit around that way and to feel normal and complete, I think is hugely powerful and a big missed opportunity for communities not to be doing something like that, I agree, I agree, and it also speaks to the work that both of you are doing through the Jewish divorce podcast, like just trying to talk about it more openly so that people, when they're going through it, they have a place to go, to go. Oh, I'm not the first person to walk in these shoes, and it's actually much more common than we hear, because we're just not talking about it. So that's why we feel so alone.

Speaker 2:

That's exactly right.

Speaker 1:

So, all right, let's. I know time always gets away from me on these conversations because I could talk to you all forever, but, um, so let's do this. What is one thing that you know now, on the other side of all this, you know years later that you wish you knew then. And that can be then can be in while you were married and in the struggle of it, or then can be during the divorce. Whatever you think is like a better little nugget for my community.

Speaker 2:

Lerone, you go first, oh, okay. So I would say the one thing that would have been really helpful for me, pre-divorce and going through divorce, is to know that, one, you're going to survive and, two, you're going to thrive. Right, that's really what it is. There's a support system there. There are people that care for you. You are smart enough to know the way through this and you are strong enough to know the way through this, and if you are willing to have faith in yourself in that way, then on the other side of it, you will thrive. You will find a whole new life.

Speaker 3:

You will learn great wisdom. Life. You will learn great wisdom and you'll be able to take that with you to become a better person and a stronger, tougher individual. Beautiful nirun. Um, I wish I knew that the post-divorce relationship was going to be a struggle. I mean, I think I thought that, like by by divorcing and having him move out, my problems will be gone. Um, nope, it was actually even more volatile and harder in the years after Um, and so I wish I kind of knew a way to set a certain tone, or I don't know if anything I would have done would have changed the outcome, but I wish that I kind of knew, in a sense, that that was something to expect. Because, um, that felt like I don't understand why we're still angry at each other. I don't understand why we're still in this toxic relationship when we're not married. It felt like I don't. I don't understand why we're still in this toxic relationship when we're not married.

Speaker 3:

It felt like I don't. I don't understand why we're still fighting if we're not married. Um, so yeah, I think, just knowing that the post-divorce piece was going to be so hard, and I wish I knew more I mean, I was 28 I didn't really know at the time what I needed from a, from a partner, and I don't think any most people do. So I think that I wish I knew. I wish I knew what I needed from someone and what you know a little more.

Speaker 1:

So, in the way beginning, yeah, and could really articulate that in a way that people can receive it. Yeah, yeah, all right. I'm just super curious Were you two friends before, like what's, how were, how did? Were you business associates? How did you two come together for the podcast?

Speaker 2:

No, so the podcast got started in 2020, actually, while we were a couple months into the pandemic actually more so, we were. It was in august of 2020. Um, the original co-host, sheva, and I actually met on bumble. Uh, she was, I was in los angeles, she was in colorado because her ex was there with the kids and she wanted to be with them for the summer. And she cast the wide net. Yeah, uh, and she said you want to start a podcast? So I said, yeah, she was a therapist, I'm a rab, so we did, and it got launched off the ground.

Speaker 2:

And then we got to the point where we said we should cover B'nai Mitzvah, bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah of Jewish children going the major, biggest stressors for any couple going through it, right, any family, particularly the child going through the bar mitzvah, but then also the parents trying to figure it out, particularly if it's their first one. Right, this is a rite of passage for your child. What lessons are you going to give them? Who are you going to fight? Right? The whole thing. It's a whole thing, the whole thing.

Speaker 3:

Uh, and Lerone and I had been introduced, I think, prior um, yeah, a mutual friend that was in a networking group with you, who I had worked with at one point she she texted me and was like there's this guy on my zoom, he's a divorce coach for men, he's cute, he's got two boys. She was she originally. I was thinking maybe there's a divorce coach for men. He's cute, he's got two boys. She was she originally. I was thinking maybe there's a setup or maybe there's a professional you guys should meet. So I reached out to him on Instagram and was like hey, we should meet. And we just started talking and it was really like we were.

Speaker 3:

You know, we both have two boys, we're both divorce coaches, we both work in the Jewish professional world. It just felt like we should be doing something together. And, coincidentally, I was working at a synagogue as an event coordinator, working planning bar mitzvahs for people every weekend and I was planning my own sons. I had just had my own son's bar mitzvah and so he had me on as a guest to talk about my experience planning the bar mitzvah, and so he had me on as a guest to talk about my experience planning the bar mitzvah with my ex, which that's a good episode because there was a lot of interesting things going on there, yeah and um, and then we just were, and then it just I.

Speaker 3:

We've stayed in touch and we were kind of trying to figure out a way that we should work together. We just felt this energy of like we should be doing something together. And then he uh took me out to lunch and proposed for me to be the new co-host, and he was not ready to leave and I was like, yes, let's do it. So it's been really fun well, you're very entertaining.

Speaker 3:

I did tell him I might add a little spiciness. I'm not as observant, is that okay? And he was like, yes, bring it on yeah, I liked it.

Speaker 1:

Once in a while you bring in a little woo or I see she's a little spicy. I like it all right. Well, we're outside of the Jewish Divorce Podcast. Where else can people find both of you?

Speaker 3:

Lerone, please, so you can find me at mydivorceconciergecom. I'm also on Instagram as mydivorceconcierge and, yeah, that's where you can find me.

Speaker 2:

You can find me at Noam Rauscher. I'm sure the spelling will come up on the screen somewhere or in the publications Noam Rauscher I'm sure the spelling will come up on the screen somewhere or in the publications. Noam Rauscher on Instagram and on Facebook. You can also find me at noamrauschercom. That's my website. It's called Walk With Me. I specialize in walking with people through problems and so yeah, and then you can also find us at the Jewish Divorce Project on social media, on Instagram and on Facebook, and at the Jewish Divorce Project at gmailcom If you're interested in being a guest or wanted to host us or looking for coaching from either Liron or I when it comes to Judaism and divorce or just divorce in general.

Speaker 1:

Love it. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and your insights and just taking the time out of your day to share with this community, so I appreciate both of you so much.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having us, Sharon.

Speaker 4:

Thank you, if you're listening to this podcast because you're struggling to decide whether to stay or go in your marriage and you're serious about finding that answer. It's time to book a truth and clarity session with a member of my team. On the call, we'll discuss where you are in your marriage and explore if there's a fit for you and I to work together so you can make and execute the right decision for you and your marriage. Go to clarityformymarriagecom to fill out an application now. That's clarityformymarriagecom.