The Loving Truth

Rachel Hollis | How to ask better questions + Reconnect with intuition

• Sharon Pope • Episode 126

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“I thought if I could just fix myself… my marriage problems would resolve.” 
–Rachel Hollis

On the podcast this week, we have a very special guest… Welcome RACHEL HOLLIS to The Loving Truth podcast!

Rachel is a two-time #1 New York Times bestselling author whose work has impacted millions of people worldwide. You probably know her from her wildly popular books: Girl, Wash Your Face and Girl, Stop Apologizing.

In this episode of the podcast, Rachel and I have a conversation about intuition, fear, marriage, and divorce. 

Rachel explains how she’s slowly learned to listen to her gut instincts and how she digests her biggest fears through writing. She also tells the relatable story of her first panic attack and how she’s re-learning to communicate with her now-husband. 

It wouldn’t be a conversation with Rachel Hollis if she didn’t also drop some wisdom, so you’ll hear her advice on - 

  • How to ask better questions to reconnect with your intuition
  • The difference between what we ‘need’ and what we ‘want’
  • And the powerful mindset shift to identify your real v. perceived fear

Rachel’s new book What If YOU Are The Answer? is filled with insightful questions to ask as you learn to trust yourself again… and she shares a few of those right here on The Loving Truth! 

“[My divorce] was so much worse than I could have imagined… and I would do it again.”
–Rachel Holis

Struggling to decide whether to stay or go in your marriage and you’re serious about finding that answer?

Book a Truth & Clarity Session with a member of my team. We’ll discuss where you are in your marriage and explore if there’s a fit for you and I to work together so you can make - and execute - the RIGHT decision for YOU and your marriage.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Loving Truth Podcast, where it's all about finding clarity, confidence and peace in the face of marriage challenges. And now your host relationship expert and certified Master Life Coach, sharon Pope.

Speaker 2:

Hello, loves, this is Sharon Pope, and this is the Loving Truth. I have such a gift for you. Today we have with us the two-time number one international bestselling author, rachel Hollis. Let me just introduce you to her super quick. Rachel Hollis is a two-time number one New York Times bestselling author whose work has impacted millions of readers worldwide Through her books, speaking Engagements and the Rachel Hollis podcast. She explores life's unspoken truths and engages in real conversations, particularly about challenges faced by women today. A mother of four and entrepreneur for two decades, rachel's candid storytelling and relatable humor make her a beacon, truly a gift, for those seeking fresh perspectives on life's challenges and triumphs. Now, you probably know her from her wildly popular books Girl Wash your Face and Girl Stop Apologizing. But in case you don't, then we are in for a treat, and I include myself in that. So welcome Rachel.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you. Thank you, Sharon.

Speaker 2:

I am thrilled to have you here. You just launched a new book. What If you Are the Answer? And so I'm excited to see some of the post-it notes and all the tabs. So I'm excited to talk to you today, because we're going to talk about our intuition, we're going to talk about fears, we're going to talk about marriages. We're going to talk about all the things.

Speaker 3:

All the things, girl, let's do it.

Speaker 2:

All right, so let's begin with the gut instinct part. I know that there's a chapter in your book that is entitled when Did you Know Something Was Wrong? And essentially it's like you know on some level when something isn't right for you, but then we don't trust it Right. Yeah, oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, you're good. In my world it's like you suspect your partner's having an affair, but you're not sure. You need to gather evidence. You know, or like I've even had. I've had women tell me that they knew, walking down the aisle that it wasn't right, but they felt to. They felt like they couldn't turn back. So talk to me about this intuition. Why do you think that we just ignore it so often?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's worth saying how you and I met. We were sat next to, we were sat beside each other at this retreat, mastermind I don't know how much detail you give about that stuff but we were sat next to each other and Sharon was like, oh, I do this very specific work. And I was like, oh, girl, have I? I got a book for you, because so much of this new book is my writing and journaling and essaying through four years post divorce.

Speaker 3:

And for those of you who don't know my story, I met my ex-husband when I was 18 years old, like a lot of women I know, got married very young and we were together for 18 years. So I had never even gone on another date before I went on my first date and then married him, because that's so what you did in the culture I grew up in, evangelical Christian, raised to be a good girl. You know the the best thing that you could aspire to in our community was like you're going to get married and you're going to have kids and you're going to be that person. And yeah, so we were together for a very long time. He was my best friend, like, in a lot of ways. We grew up together and, if I'm being really honest now, I actually was just telling someone this the other day.

Speaker 3:

I remember very distinctly waking up in the middle of the night. I had two babies. Both of them were asleep. He was asleep, and I remember getting up and going and sitting on the sofa and just thinking what it would be like if I wasn't married anymore. Even saying that to you, sharon, sort of makes my heart palpitate, because I was so. It is still so ingrained in me that you're not supposed to talk about being divorced or not being together like till death. Do us part, you take those vows, you are committed. And the thing that's so wild about my story though maybe you could tell me that this is actually a lot of people is that when I first started having those thoughts, I did not have any justifiable reason for why I was having them, and I can tell y'all now, so many years removed from that experience, I freaking know, because now I know everything.

Speaker 3:

Back then I didn't know anything. I was so naive, I was so, just like, absolutely trusting. I was raised in a culture that said your husband knows best, he's the head of the family, you just believe whatever he says, you do whatever, like all of that. The reason I bring up that night on the sofa is I realized recently that my son was like two and that boy will be 17 this year.

Speaker 2:

Oh wow.

Speaker 3:

So just to give you guys a thought, I got divorced five years ago, so that means for over a decade. I had these feelings in my stomach, these thoughts that would come into my head and I would ignore them and I would just like pretend it wasn't there. I thought I was being oh, I'm hormonal, like I'm just upset today. I would just excuse it away. Is that common? Do you hear that story a lot?

Speaker 2:

oh common, I think women's it's. It's unusual that it happens very quickly. Most people stay there for years and many people stay there decades, like trying to figure it out, trying to talk themselves into a perfectly fine marriage that looks good from the outside looking in, there's no. I should be unhappy. It's so common and then that's why I think we struggle with it for so long.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think in retrospect, in so many ways we were very mismatched as people. But I didn't even know that I was allowed to want someone to sort of be a partner, right, like I didn't know that that was a thing. And it's also worth saying I'm going to kind of jump all around because I feel like your community, like they can go with this, but for me, this idea that like I didn't even know that I what was possible in a partner. When I decided to leave my marriage, I was not dreaming of like being in love again. I was not like, oh, I'm going to go find someone great, there's someone better out there. I was just like I don't want this, I don't want whatever this is. I cannot do this for one more day. But it was never about like, oh, cause there's probably someone else out there for me. In fact, to get to the place that I had the courage to tell him that I thought our marriage was over, was me getting to the place of well, I'm probably going to be alone for the rest of my life and that is okay.

Speaker 3:

But the night on the sofa all those years ago, I think, was my intuition beginning to make herself known and it would take over a decade for me to listen and I would go through all the signs and symptoms that I now recognize as your intuition speaking and you ignoring it. So, um, anxiety that got worse and worse and worse and I tried everything I could to treat the anxiety and nothing would solve it. And it turns out that anxiety is like my nervous system. Being like this is wrong. Um, I got Bell's palsy, which is facial paralysis. I had it three times. I had vertigo for over a year, like all of these things. My body was literally shutting down and no doctor could find an answer. I saw every specialist and yeah it.

Speaker 2:

In retrospect I'm like oh my God, my, my inner wisdom was just begging me to listen and I didn't know how because, underneath, all that is the knowing is that, yes, that this isn't right, and I you said it brilliantly it was just like not this, I just I don't know what's on the other side, I just know this yes, and I have said this so many times.

Speaker 3:

I probably wrote this in the book, but I've said it a lot on the podcast. My greatest lesson in that experience is that you may never know why your intuition was telling you that, not this, and I mean for anything. I mean when you have the gut instinct to turn right instead of left, when you have the gut instinct to talk to that person or to ask that question or to do those things, you may never know why your intuition wanted you to take a different route home from work. But when you begin to trust that wisdom, the ease of your life, like just everything, unfolds in such an easier way and I think it I never so hard to say, like I never understood while I was married what my intuition picked up on. Now I see everything, I've learned everything.

Speaker 3:

I there are stuff I wish I didn't know, but I so have the evidence to understand what my gut was screaming at me and I just think on so many levels, if I had listened to that earlier, if I had used my voice, if I had demanded some truths, like any of that stuff. But I didn't. I just kept thinking it was my problem and I needed to fix myself, and if I would just fix myself, then we would be happier. And I think a lot of yes, exactly, and I think a lot of I'm sure, exactly. And I think a lot of I'm sure men do this as well, but women, especially, you're like, oh, I'll just, you know, I need to go to more therapy, or I'll have a little more wine, or I'll get on some antidepressants or I'll do this stuff. It all ends up being you like having to take responsibility for everybody in the marriage, and that's not what a marriage is supposed to be.

Speaker 2:

Right. I often say that our intuition speaks to us in just simple sentences. It's like stop go. Yes, no, that's it. You don't get like, well, don't do this, because if you do that, then this is what's going to happen, and that exactly. Don't get all that, you just get yes, no, stop go, yeah yeah, so true.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh, my gosh, so, so I think so. For me, I tend to access that wisdom I have. In order to do that, I have to be really quiet and still, and that's why, for me, meditation is an important part of my practice. Martha Beck was my mentor in terms of coaching. Amazing, yeah, she's incredible, and she would always talk about how the world's just walking around dead from the neck down, because we're all in our heads so much that we've got to be able to quiet that noise to be able to access that inner wisdom. Do you experience your intuition in your body or more in your mind? How do you experience your intuition in your body or more in your mind? Like, how do you experience it?

Speaker 3:

I would say my intuition is in my body, but I really believe in guardian angels, I really believe in guides. I'm constantly talking to God and the universe and whatever is out there. So I would say that's kind of in my head, but intuition is in my body. For me, I would say I get my most, most of my clarity. I actually did this last night like couldn't sleep, got up everyone else is in the house is asleep went and sat on the sofa and journaled um, journaling's a really big part of just I. I don't know if it's because I'm a writer or because I like sort of the tactile nature of words across a page while processing.

Speaker 3:

I've also done a lot of work with like free flowing thought process, not censoring yourself, just writing everything that you can possibly think of to write, and then going back after your like a certain amount of time and reading what you've written, and it's sometimes shocking what is revealed there that you didn't know you were suppressing or you didn't know you were thinking um. Another experience just because I'm thinking of your community. I I remember this was years ago, I was still married, but it was in the last couple of years of our marriage and I was really starting to be aware, still never, never, thought the word divorce. Until I thought the word divorce, I don't know if that makes sense, like I just was for years like how do I fix this, how do I fix this, how do I fix this? And then one day I was like you can't.

Speaker 3:

But a couple of years before we split up, I was doing a journaling exercise where I was imagining life on my next big birthday. So, just like a fun thing that I like to do, think of the future. Who's going to be at the party? What are you wearing? What's true about your life at this big birthday? That's not true today. How old are your kids? It's just like a beautiful visualization. And I did this whole thing and I worked on it for quite a while and I always think it's awesome to not give yourself any strict rules about you know, don't censor, just like write it all down. And I did this thing. So you know, and I went through everyone my friends, my parents, like the kids, and my work. And I went back and read it later and I was like holy crap, I didn't talk about my husband once, like he's not even there.

Speaker 2:

Oh, wow.

Speaker 3:

And it never occurred to me, and I just remember that being like, oh dang, that that means something, that really means something. So for me, journaling is just this incredibly powerful tool. In my studio over here there's probably 50. I just have years of journals and I've just done it since I was a little girl.

Speaker 2:

There's so many times that clients will tell me that they went back and read a journal from 10 years ago and they're like it's the same it is the same. It was right there. How come I'm still here years later.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean amen. Like maybe that's what someone listening needs to hear right now. If you keep a journal, go read the journal from when you were first dating. There is a. There are some revelations in those early journal pages that I was like, oh my god, rachel, like it was all here, but I believe I wouldn't have my four kids, I wouldn't have this life, I wouldn't be who I am Like. I don't regret any of it, but I do think I stayed in it way longer than I should have, like so many people. Like you said, you wouldn't have had to blow up your life. Yeah, I burned down everything.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and four years, yeah, yeah, I was thinking about it before I made the decision, but it's not uncommon for someone to say 10 plus years.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. And it is this like oh my gosh, what am I going to do to my family? What am I going to do to my life? My ex-husband and I worked together, so I knew that it would absolutely destroy the business, which was a business I had built for a very long time before he came into it, and I was like I'm about to take a torch to this thing that I've worked on for so long.

Speaker 3:

And I think ultimately a big push for me was you know, there's that thing a lot of women tell themselves maybe guys do too, but like what will this do to my kids? What will this do to my kids? What will this do to my kids? And I'm the child of divorce and I always said I would never, ever do that. And then one day I was like my God, do I want them to think that this is what a healthy relationship looks like? Do I want my daughter to think that this is what you would aspire to as a grown woman, to like be an? Absolutely not, and that was like a big unlock for me. But I think that if I had been more in touch with my intuition, or had ever even learned that word, you know growing up. It would have been so helpful Because I really did come to that later in life, and so much of this book the book is all questions that I've learned to ask myself, because that was the best way that I knew to tap into my own inner knowing, and I was hoping that readers could do the same.

Speaker 3:

But the question that you mentioned when did you know something was wrong Is like you know, this could be anything, this could be a job that you cannot stand, an apartment where the neighbors are crazy, somebody went on a date with and he turned out to be awful, like anything that went truly wrong in your life. If you ask yourself not when did it go wrong.

Speaker 3:

but when did you know? I got it early on, and if we can learn to listen to that voice when it speaks, it will save us so much pain and so much time.

Speaker 2:

You're so right, there is another part of that book. There's so many parts that I appreciated, but this part of just genuinely I actually used it today in a coaching call because I think sometimes women feel like they have to have the answer right now, like, let's say that they're in a, they're trying to with their husband, they're trying to say I'm unhappy and I would like to be more connected, but I don't know how they don't really have the words, and then their husband gets blameful or gets defensive and then it turns into a big upset and they think they've got to have like the answer to know in that moment. And I think it is such like giving yourself permission is such a gift to just go. I need to step back and think about this or feel into this yeah, yeah, um.

Speaker 3:

It's hard to wait in the not knowing. It's hard to sit in that messy middle. I don't think a lot of people are very good at it and because, especially if you've been debating something for a very long time or sensing something for a very long time, there's got to be a really strong part of you, even if it's subconscious, that just wants something to change. You know, if you're in the monotony of like the same thing over and over, like you're like good grief, just something, so it's easy to latch on to the idea that like I gotta, I gotta make a change right now, and sometimes that can be really helpful. To just go and like let the chips fall where they may, yeah, but there is a real superpower in the willingness to allow yourself to just be still. Oprah has this great quote where she says when you don't know what to do, do nothing. Like if you don't have to make a decision right this second, do nothing, because eventually all will be revealed, the universe will guide you, god will show you what's up Like, you will find the answer at some point. But if you don't have to do something right this second, don't force it, because you also don't want to do something wrong that you regret pushing, and I think you don't like. If you are with a partner and you're really fighting for that relationship, not everybody's going to move at your speed, Not everybody's going to be where you're at.

Speaker 3:

I remember years ago I went to my first personal development conference and I was so pumped up and so excited. I went with a group of people from work and we were like on fire. We're like ready to take the whole world on. And one of the gals who was with us on the team came home and walked into the door full of life, told her wife oh, we're gonna, we're drinking green juice and we're getting up at 5 am, we're signing up for half marathon and she's just like on fire for so working on herself. And her wife was like this is amazing, but I did not have the experience that you had, so I am not ready for 5 am and green juice and half marathon.

Speaker 3:

I love you and I will support you in that, but we have had two completely different experiences, so you cannot expect me to be at the same spot in this journey. It's just a really good thing to remember, like your partner might not yet be where you are, but that doesn't mean they don't love you and that doesn't mean they don't want to work on it. It just it might take them a little bit longer to get where you need them to be.

Speaker 2:

You know it's funny. Just the other day I read something in a book where they talked about how the amygdala reacts so quickly. Right, your nervous system knows how to react and respond, but the prefrontal cortex needs time to catch up, and I think that's what we give ourselves and we just take a little moment for yourself to really think it through, to feel it through, to access the inner wisdom, right? Yeah?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, especially for anybody. If you're talking about the amygdala, if you've had trauma in the past that has at all put you into fight or flight, and, frankly, if you live through the pandemic like we all have some version of that that if that's your gut, if your gut instinct is is fight or flight, mode mode, it's going to take it even longer, like you said, for your thinking brain, for your rational brain, to think it through. And it's worth saying, if you are a woman and you are at all near perimenopause, which there's a lot.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, like there is a lot that happens with our hormones that not enough people are talking about in terms of it just relationships and it destroying marriages, because you were like I hate this person, I hate his face, I hate his hair, I hate everything about him and then four days later you're totally fine. That's actually probably just a great piece of advice. If the feelings you're having fluctuate with your cycle, that's a heck of a clue. If it's a feeling you're having nonstop, that might be something that maybe you need some action on. But yeah, but it's okay to sit in the not knowing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is. Yeah, there's growth there. There's goodness there, yeah, all right. So there is a part in the book where you share a story about your first panic attack. She's a brilliant storyteller. Folks Like her. Stories are amazing. But what I loved about it is you brought it around to what you need versus what you want, and sometimes like we want and need the warm hug and the compassion and all that, but sometimes we really want the warm hug and the compassion and all that, but sometimes we really want the warm hug and the compassion, but what we really need is a bit of tough love. Yeah, can you share your experience with that and how you use that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so the story in the book, like you said, is about me having a panic attack in my late 30s, never experienced before. So I didn't know what's happening and I thought I was dying, like, just this is it? I'm take lord's taking me home. So I was at a concert with my now husband. He was a new, new boyfriend at the time. We're at a concert together and I was having the best time and all of a sudden I just felt really weird and I tell the whole story of this crazy panic attack that I had at a Paul McCartney concert, which is an awful place, so disrespectful to the Beatles. And yeah, so when it's happening, I'm on the floor. I'm, I'm on the floor. I'm like just can't even function. And my husband now boyfriend at the time is a tour manager. He's been a tour manager in the music industry for over 20 years, so he is dealing with me.

Speaker 3:

I am already, sharon, so dramatic you can't even imagine. But imagine the drama when I'm having a panic attack. But I think I'm dying and he is so calm and no matter what I would say he would be like you're fine. Happens at concerts all the time the light, the sound, the people. You're having a panic attack, you're fine. The sound, the people. You're having a panic attack, you're fine. And the more you would say it, the more I would be like, no, like I'm dying. I'm dying like this. Is it like? Ask you know, read me my last rights. And um, then he started to get almost rude. And he is not. He is the kindest gentlest man ever. And and he is not. He is the kindest gentlest man ever. And he's like you're being really dramatic, rachel, like you are fine and like my heart is pounding. He's like your heart rate is perfect.

Speaker 3:

I'm like I'm sweating, I'm flop sweating. He's like you don't have no matter what I would say. He would tell me it wasn't happening. Right, and somewhere in like the higher reaches of my mind I'm like, oh my God, he's actually a jerk, Because we haven't been dating that long and I was like, oh, this guy's been pretending to be nice but I am dying and he is being so mean to me. Yeah, he's being so mean.

Speaker 3:

So we go through this whole ordeal. He gets me back to the hotel, and we get back to the hotel and all of a sudden he's like so kind and gentle again and I'm too disoriented to even deal with that. So I fall asleep and the next morning I'm really hurt by it. I'm really hurt by it and I said I feel like when I needed you the most, like you were so dismissive of me and I was having this really hard moment and you just were like flip it to the point of rude. And he was like oh my gosh, I tried everything, Darling. I tried everything. I tried everything, darling. I tried everything. I. I cajoled you and I worked with you.

Speaker 3:

She's like Rachel, you had been on the floor for almost an hour. I mean, emts were watching me. Everyone's in line for margaritas. I'm splayed on the floor, I'm taking clothes off like it was a situation, Sharon, and he's like I had tried everything to get you up off the floor and you were getting worse. Like, the more you were in your head, the worse you were getting. So I realized that the thing that would snap you out of it was pissing you off, and he did. The moment that I started to come back into rational thought was when I got mad at him Because I was like this jerk does not know that I'm dying.

Speaker 3:

How disrespectful, and that's what made me like stop having a panic attack yeah so I said I was like okay, I just I felt like when I needed you, you weren't there. And he said would you consider that what you want and what you needed were two completely different things? Like what you might want in this moment was for me to like hug you and sit with you on the floor, but anyone could see that you were getting worse and worse. And there were literally emt who were like are we gonna have to take her to the hospital? So he was like what you wanted was a hug, but what you needed was to get angry so that you could come back into your body again. And I was like, oh, okay, well, fine. It was a really good lesson for me, because I think we all have those times in our life where what we want in this moment is maybe compassion and we want someone to feel sorry for us, but that wanting isn't necessarily going to help us get closer to the person we're trying to become.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

There are absolutely times for that sort of slower pace, like rubbing your back, taking care of you, those things, and sometimes you need someone to tell you the truth.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

And to hold up a mirror and to challenge your thought process, because otherwise you're so in your own head. You're going to be in this exact same spot again next year.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I so agree. There's so many times where, like we just human beings, we love our comfort zone and so it's like the things that feel comfortable to us. Like I'll say you know, I'll go talk about my marriage problems with my girlfriends, that's easy, that's comfortable, but having the conversation with the person that I'm actually in the relationship with super uncomfortable.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

So there's that what you really want versus what you really need.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, not, not the same thing at all, but this just reminded me of the. There's something so wild about having been inside of a marriage that you were in, since you were essentially a child like 18 years old. No experience. You learn how you're supposed to behave together right Like you build all of these sort of rules for what a relationship is or how we communicate with each other or don't communicate with each other based on that experience.

Speaker 3:

And I remember when I was first dating my now husband, he had said something that I found really flippant and I thought he was sort of like being rude and for like four days I just was like sick to my stomach about it and I was stewing in it and I was trying to think of how to say to him that what he had said, it hurt my feelings and I just was like trying and trying and trying and like finally just I okay, I mapped it out in my brain and I came to him and I said, hey, when you said this thing the other day, it made me feel this way, and he was like oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I would never want you to feel that way. I, I didn't mean it like that at all. Thank you for telling me. Also, why didn't you just tell me in the moment and I was like what, what? And he's like, why didn't you just tell me in the moment Like, right, then he's like oh man, you've been like sitting with this for four days. That must've felt so awful.

Speaker 3:

Why didn't you just tell me right then that something I said was upsetting and I was like I didn't know you were allowed to do that, because I was in this relationship where you know, okay, we have to really got to walk on eggshells and don't want him to get defensive and like how can I say this in a way that can be received? Yeah, so there is, gosh, a beauty in just like, right then, being like whew, man, that felt like a zinger, you know. And then the other person going oh gosh, I didn't, sorry, I had a hard day, I didn't mean to come out, I didn't mean to come out on you. It's wild to be navigating that Sometimes. I'll just go ouch, that hurt.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. It just be like something simple that hurt. Yeah, yeah, just be like something simple. We don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

All right, I would love to talk to you about fears. Sure, my ladies, they have some fears, and worthwhile fears, and I get it, yeah, yeah, and it's one of the things that keeps them stuck in this place of comfortable discomfort for a long time, because they have fears if they choose to stay. Like am I going to waste more years of my life? Am I going to show my kids a shitty example of what love and marriage looks like? Like there's fears if you stay, and then there's a ton of fears if you decide to end your relationship. So they just get stuck in this place. That doesn't feel good, but it doesn't feel nearly as terrifying as these other things. And so in the book you talk about real fear versus imagined fear. Can you give your take on that?

Speaker 3:

yeah. So most of the things I've been petrified of in my life never came to fruition. It was all just stories I made up in my own head about what was going to happen, and the truth is that the hard stuff that happens to us in my opinion, 98% of the time are the things we never anticipated. I don't know about your life, but the worst things that have ever happened to me are things I didn't know like. I don't know about your life, but the worst things that have ever happened to me are things I didn't know Like. I didn't anticipate that, and that's also why they felt so hard.

Speaker 3:

So, for me, learning to understand how my body works and my subconscious, your subconscious, anyone's subconscious does not know the difference between the stories we're making up in our mind and what is actually happening to us, which is why you can have an anxiety attack based on a made up story that someone's going to be upset with you or everything's going to go to hell, or like it'll all fall apart. Your body, then, is experiencing the hardship more than once. It's experiencing it every single time. You imagine that scenario, and then it has to experience something again, if and when you actually have the decision to change right.

Speaker 3:

So the question I think that chapter comes from is who would you be without your fear? Is I say this again and again in life like you do not have to make a change when you know your truth? Just knowing your truth is incredibly empowering. At least then you could be like you know what. I know this isn't right, but I'm not ready to do anything about it is way more empowered than like I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do Because that makes you feel like you are insecure in your own life.

Speaker 2:

And it's sort of training yourself not to trust yourself, exactly.

Speaker 3:

Exactly so. Who would you be without your fear? At least just allows you to you know again, grab a journal, grab a pen. Well, I would be more confident in every situation. And if I wasn't so afraid to talk to people, maybe I'd have more friends, community, and you know, if I wasn't so afraid, then I would be this. And if I wasn't so afraid of that, there's power in that question. And if I wasn't so afraid of that, there's power in that question.

Speaker 3:

But if I could give like a little sort of cheat code I don't believe in like going back and if you could change anything, or if you could tell your past self anything, what would you tell them? Because it would change the dynamics of it all. Right, but here's. Here's something that might actually be helpful for your community and it's maybe a controversial way to look at this. Imagine worst case scenario Okay, go. Worst case, yeah. When you're thinking I don't know if this relationship should continue to exist, and you're like, what if this happens and this happens, and my kids are mad at me and my in-laws hate me and the community chooses him instead of me? And imagine it like go worse scenario and then go okay. And then what would I do? Okay, and then what would I do? And then what would I do? Because the honest to God truth, Sharon, is that I did not have any clue how bad it would be.

Speaker 3:

When I had the courage to leave I've never even said that, like saying it, like making me choke up and sort of like make my stomach a bit sick I had the stupidest, most naive perception that we were going to continue to be best friends and we were going to raise our kids together and we could still work together. And I just had the. It was so naive, just had the. It was so naive. And it from the second that I said the words. It was a completely different human and I think in retrospect that I probably was seeing him in a more truthful way, because people do really awful things when they're hurt.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

And it was so much. I mean like make a list of what can happen in a divorce. It happened and it felt just like truth man, like it took way longer than I thought, took like two years. Every single part of that was hard and ugly and um.

Speaker 3:

I attitude in the process was like just say yes to anything he wants, give him anything he wants, because I had guilt about being the one who made the decision and that was a oh sweet baby rachel, like just the stupidest thing, just just so. I mean like we're not gonna go all the way there, but what I'm more just want the listeners to like play with that for a second hope to god, it's not that. Maybe you get to be gwyneth paltrow and chris martin and you get to have a beautiful divorce and still remain friends, still be cool. But imagine the worst. Because my Pollyanna optimism imagined the best and was just so decimated by reality and I think that a had had shown up a little bit more prepared for what might possibly happen. I could have taken better care of myself in that process.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's a. Can I read a bit from your book? Yeah sure, all right guys, there's a sentence here. Here's what she says the 14 years of work I'd put in as an entrepreneur had been quickly eaten up by a brand made much more palatable. When I did that work alongside a man, being a good wife was the public preference, and when I chose to stop being that, I was no longer acceptable to some. Oh yeah, that like punched me in the gut, because one of the fears for so many women is being judged for so many women is being judged.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, oh yeah, it is. Now I have a really public job Right, so that you've got the added weight of an online community who can be so awful. But what I could not reconcile was every friend that we had that was a couple was no longer my friend, because the attitude was well, she chose to leave and nobody knew. Nobody knew why, and that was probably the hardest thing to carry was I knew behind the scenes how bad things had gotten. I didn't know the full extent of all that had transpired until later, but I knew some of it and, out of respect for my kids and out of respect for him, I never told anybody like nobody knew. And out of respect for him, I never told anybody Like nobody knew. So all of these people were like oh, rachel's just, you know, made it big and now she's too big for him and this poor guy.

Speaker 3:

So I lost all of my friends that were couples, so many of the business relationships that were based on the work I had done, like there's a whole personal development community that I was great friends with and suddenly stopped calling.

Speaker 3:

I mean, just like I, I lost it all and because they had made up a story and I think I will never forget this because this is my lived experience when one member of the couple is talking to anyone who will listen about how bad the other person is and one is just remaining quiet and trying to get on with their life, the one who is doing the talking is the one who's trying to cover stuff up, because if you are a healing person doing your work, going to therapy, you don't have time to gossip about the parent of your children.

Speaker 3:

It doesn't even make sense. So it just was so much worse than I could have imagined and I would do it again 1000 times every single day, knowing how bad I mean. If I, if you were like you're gonna go back in time and you could be like, yeah, if this is what it takes for me to experience the ability to raise my children in a home that's healthy and to take care of them and to take care of myself, I did every single day, every single day, and it was brutal.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so we've got to talk about the chapter. Like by the book just for even this one chapter, even though you've already gotten a taste of how good this book is. This chapter like buy the book just for even this one chapter, even though you've already gotten a taste of how good this book is, this chapter would you sign up for this again?

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, okay. It's where I feel like I have to say the book is not about divorce. I just realized I'm like we're making it sound like I wrote. It's not. It really is a book about intuition. It's just I wrote it in these years post divorce, so I was really trying to discover and meet myself again.

Speaker 3:

Now this question is actually something that I found as an entrepreneur and it is so stinking good, like I love a question that when you hear it, you're like Ooh, like that one hit me and I was watching this video on how to be a better manager of people and this guy I don't even remember who it was, it was like super old school video he said think about an employee that you have right now that you have a lot of issues with. And like immediately like five people sprung to mind, cause I had a team of like I don't even know it was. At the end it was 60 people, so at this point let's say it's like 35. So I had a few people spring into my head and he said now ask yourself this, knowing what you know now, everything that you know now about this person, if they came in for a job interview today. Would you sign up for this again? Came in for a job interview today. Would you sign up for this again?

Speaker 2:

He says if your immediate answer is not absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Why are they still employed? Yeah, we stay in these relationships with employees, with old friends from high school, with partners that no longer service. We stay in these things because we have some perception about sunk costs. We're like I've invested so much time, or I've invested so much money in this employee, or I've done what we've just we've known each other for so long. Right, the length of time that you are with someone is not justification for the rest of your life. It is absolutely so crazy that we buy into the idea that someone we met when we were like 20 is still going to be the right partner for us when we're 50, or or maybe they are the right partner for us, but we're not even taught that we're allowed to question that yeah so asking yourself that about your husband or your wife, your girlfriend, your boyfriend?

Speaker 3:

that is crazy powerful. If your gut reaction is not absolutely, you have a real problem. You have a real problem. Um, another good one. This isn't in the book, but I can't remember where I heard this idea, but it was. I was reading a book about how to be more intuitive. I was learning about like auras and like reading people's energy.

Speaker 3:

I'm just a hippie and a, so I was reading some book and she had this practice that I, of course, did in my journal, which was to think about different people you know. So, like clear your mind and then think of someone that you know that you really love, like allow their image to come into your mind and what is the first word that pops into your head when you see them? And again, I was married at the time, but I was like on a. I had taken myself out of town for the weekend so I could do some, some work and like journaling and like I mean self-work, and I was doing this with my girlfriend, so I was like imagining one girlfriend and her face came into my mind. I was like, oh, sunshine, that was my word.

Speaker 3:

And then another girlfriend came into my mind. I was just like laughter Cause, like she can make me laugh like no one else. And all of a sudden I thought of my husband at the time and out of nowhere, the word unmoored came into my head and I was like I remember sitting there on this deck and my eyes opened up and I was like what? Like, what is that? Cause it was so. I don't even use that word, but it was such a apt description for this feeling of like, like lost, and now that I know the truth about his life, I'm like, of course, that is the word that came into my mind he was so lost, he was so, you know.

Speaker 3:

But just anything that you can do, any questions that you can ask or practices that you can do, like this to better understand, maybe, what you're feeling, but not allowing yourself to think Again. You don't have to do anything with that information, but those like gut instincts one word, what comes comes to mind those are breadcrumbs, man. Those are clues that would, that are really important in not just making the decision that maybe this is done, but making the decision that you're going to be a good partner, if you're going to be in this relationship. Show up. And showing up means, if I had had the courage, I would have went home from that weekend and said, hey, I did this practice and the word that came to mind was this let's talk about it.

Speaker 3:

What does that mean? Why am I getting that sensation Like, are you okay? What is going on? Rather than, oh, I don't you know. I don't want to upset anybody and I I I don't want to hurt his feelings and I want to be a good girl, so I'm just gonna, you know, shove this down nice and deep and pretend it's not there.

Speaker 2:

Then you just carry it. Yeah, when I went through my divorce, I was in therapy afterwards, healing all the things right, and I remember that therapist said I have this couple that I've worked with for years and on their anniversary every year they come together and they say do you want to do this for another year? And I thought, well, isn't that healthy? Yeah, because what works for us at 22 is not what works for us at 42 or 52. Yes, yes, we negotiate as we go. I want to normalize, renegotiating our relationship as we go.

Speaker 3:

Well and acknowledging that you are growing and you are evolving, and it is really normal for people to evolve away from each other, and if you don't want that to happen in your relationship, then you both have to actively be working to evolve together.

Speaker 3:

You don't have to be into the same things or be the same person, but you've got to be both at the same pace Because otherwise, you know, I grew up in the Christian faith and there's this part in the Bible that I always love that talks about two oxen being unevenly yoked.

Speaker 3:

So like if you have a really big ox that's out in the field plowing and it's next to a really short ox in the field plowing, the yolk is uneven. They can't like match up with each other, and I think it's a really good analogy for what a healthy relationship looks like. You don't need to have the same strengths. I think you know my husband now. We are very different, but the yin and yang really beautifully compliments each other but you do both need to be at a similar level in terms of how you're dealing with life, what are your values, what are your principles, how are you showing up? And if you're too scared to admit that, maybe those things have shifted and changed over time, like if you don't have that level of intimacy where you can have those hard conversations, it it feels really dangerous to the health of your marriage.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, all right, I want to be super respectful of your time. Let's do three quick questions.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

What are you most, what are you most looking forward to in the year ahead?

Speaker 3:

questions. Okay, I'm ready. What are you most looking forward to in the year ahead? I am working on a really big project that has nothing to do with books or personal development or anything like that, so I'm really excited about it. Uh, I hope I get to announce it later this year, but for now I'll just say a really big project just another reason to follow her, so we can find out what.

Speaker 2:

It is all right. What's your favorite book and why?

Speaker 3:

I saw this on your list and I was like truly, this is like asking me to choose a favorite child. It feels impossible. So I'm going to go with my favorite book that I read last year, because you mentioned Martha Beck and I think the book integrity should be like required reading to be a human. I absolutely love that book. I gave it away as my Christmas party gift to all of the attendees Just incredible. Highly recommend to everybody.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's awesome. The way of integrity is what it's called.

Speaker 3:

There, it is there, you go and I love quotes.

Speaker 2:

Tell me your favorite quote. I know it's asking you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it is hard, but this again is Oprah. Like all my quotes are Oprah, I think. So this years ago in her show she said there's no such thing as luck, there's only opportunity meeting preparation at a moment in time and I just love that Like I've spent my life preparing and hopefully opportunity shows up every once in a while and I get the chance to knock it out of the park.

Speaker 2:

Yes, all right. So, everyone, I need you to go get this book. What if you are the answer? It's going to make you laugh, for sure it might make you cry, but it will also help open you up to the experience of creating real change in your life just by answering questions and tapping into your own intuition. So how can people find more Rachel Hollis goodness.

Speaker 3:

Oh gosh. Well, I have a podcast that I've had for like eight years and we do a new episode Monday through Friday, so five days a week. You can get all kinds of ideas. My favorite social platform is Instagram. I'm Ms Rachel Hollis over there and, yeah, those are the easiest ways. Come hang out with me.

Speaker 2:

I want you to know you inspired me. I'm taking. I was just doing one podcast a week and now I'm moving to two next month because of our yeah, I mean I can tell you all the tricks at this point, but it is really helpful. Yeah, yeah, all right. Well, thank you First of all for just sharing your gifts with the world, but also for sharing your insights and your energy and your time and your love with my community. I am so appreciative of you and I'm proud to know you.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you, Sharon. I'm very happy to be here.

Speaker 1:

If you're listening to this podcast because you're struggling to decide whether to stay or go in your marriage and you're serious about finding that answer. It's time to book a Truth and Clarity session with a member of my team. On the call, we'll discuss where you are in your marriage and explore if there's a fit for you and I to work together so you can make and execute the right decision for you and your marriage. Go to clarityformymarriagecom to fill out an application now. That's clarityformymarriagecom.