Christina Interviews Matt
Matt: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to Write Out Loud the podcast about storytelling, writing, authorship, creativity, and fun. I don't know. I just added a few things, but hey, welcome.
Christina: all those things. You could say that,
Matt: It is, it is about all those things. I, of course, am Matt Cassem and I'm here joined by the lovely, beautiful, and esteemed
Christina: Tina.
Matt: Tina. And as part of season two, I mean, it's season two, we're, you know. Kind of new. Not new, but just different. We're kind of changing things up little bit, and as part of that, you wanted to surprise me with this week's topic, so I know nothing about what you're about to do. tell me what, what did choose?
Christina: What are we doing? Well, so I know that last season you interviewed me, um, and all my expertise and you know, my background and everything, but I did not interview you. Um, and I thought it would actually be really cool to interview [00:01:00] you, um, from the perspective of. An aspiring writer. An aspiring author. You are a writer.
You are an aspiring author.
Mm-Hmm.
that's how I like to look at 'em. 'cause I think everybody is a writer no matter if you publish or not. If you write stuff creatively, if you write stuff in a diary, you're, you know, a writer. So I thought it would really cool to ask you, um, 'cause I think your perspective is gonna be a lot similar to, you know, some of our listeners, um, or people who.
Are aspiring to, you know, write a completed story or book or novel or, you know, memoir, you know, what have you. So I thought I would, um, ask you some questions. Some easy ones. Some hard ones. Yeah.
Matt: All right. I don't know how supposed to keep my man of mystery motif going, but
Christina: I'm not asking you to dig deep here. You can give me every surface answer you want. [00:02:00] You can lie if you want. Um, don't think you're gonna want to, but, okay. So I thought we would start out very, um, general and then kind of, um, get a little bit into it. So, um, I have asked you this before, but I don't know that I got the answer.
Why do you read.
Matt: Oh, again, it's just part of my man of mystery thing. Um, why do I read? I read because I. I've always been drawn to story. I've always been drawn to stories that can pull you in, especially to books that can pull you in that make you want to pay. Flip that page and just keep going and you, you know, you're laying in bed.
It's 11 o'clock, it's now 12 o'clock. It's now one o'clock, and you're like, oh, but just a few more pages. Like I just, I wanna find out what's going on here.
Christina: one more chapter.
Matt: Yeah, I mean those types of well told stories that just tug at your soul because they want you to come along for that ride is why I read.
Christina: Why do you think they tug at your soul?[00:03:00]
Matt: I think in a lot of ways we identify with the story at some level. Whether it's a character, whether it's a situation they find themselves in, whether it's maybe some inadvertent wisdom they dispense in that situation. Right. Because think sometimes we find ourselves in life, in situations that sort of mirror a little bit of what happens in the story.
Maybe not exactly, but maybe as an, uh, you know, an allegory or as a analogy to your situation. And I think sometimes we think about. What that character does in that situation, how they react, and if they say something that just sort of resonates, like I think that really kind of sometimes helps, right?
You're looking answers, you're looking for clues
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: Um, and I guess by mystery I mean life, like you're trying to find your way
Christina: No, I, I think you hit it, you hit it on the head. You know, we find ourselves, we connect to something either in the story, in the characters, something that's unfolding. Um, I, I have actually written [00:04:00] articles, when I used to work for Borders, we used to have a website and, you know, had these blogs and stuff on there, and I was one of the writers for that.
And, um, one of the posts that I wrote was actually the perfect timing, um, because I always found as a reader that the perfect book. That reflected something for me that I connected to, and generally it's fiction. Um, would be at a place where I was in my life. Um, and one of my greatest ones was, um, a book called Mud Vain.
I can never recommend it enough by Taryn Fisher, and it is literally a mystery thriller. Um, but it's. It's actually a book. You could even call it, a self-help book, um, about self-love about, you know, um, unconditional love, uh, loving yourself, but it's all wrapped up in a, you know, nice little bow as a mystery thriller.
So, yeah, no, I agree with you Totally because of the connection. [00:05:00] So the flip side of that question is then why do you write?
Matt: Why do I write? Uh, I want the power of God. I wanna create things. And that's really in a nutshell, kind of it honestly, like I want to be able to say like, this is my world. These are the characters that I've come up with that kind of best tell that story. Sometimes writing has been, for me, a little bit of a means to an end.
Like sometimes I've had to write a story because I had a message to share and I was too maybe shy or too. Um, not direct enough to just come out and say it. So sometimes a story is kind of how you, how you get there, right? Or the way that you kinda get your message across. So there were literally a couple times as a kid when I would write a story about something that happened to this character and how it was just terrible and that it should have gone this way and this is how that would've been fixed or whatever.
And, you know, given it to my mom and dad, um, because it was something that I had done and that they had maybe disciplined me, right? And I [00:06:00] was thinking that was just terribly unfair and this is how it should have gone kind of thing.
Christina: Did, they recognize that was going on
Matt: yeah. I was not very good at writing at that so it was very, very transparent.
Christina: so do you think that in some way you are looking to make an impact, you are looking to impart wisdom?
Matt: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think every writer wants to communicate, right? Communication is I. At its best two ways. Um, even if it's not direct communication, meaning we're not having a conversation, but I'm sending you a message and you're receiving that message, right?
Track 1: Yeah,
Matt: maybe even reacting later in some way. Um, so yeah, I think there is a bit of that where we want to, I want to leave the world hopefully better than I found it.
Track 1: yeah,
Matt: Um, even if it's just because, you know, I made people laugh or
Christina: yeah.
Matt: cry or whatever.
Christina: I think that is something that, um, maybe writers think of on the surface level. You know, if I can just make [00:07:00] some people smile today. Um, you know, I've done my job as a writer,
Matt: mm-Hmm.
Christina: but I think, I actually think that, um, writers are so much more impactful than they realize. I think so.
Matt: No, I would agree. I think there's been, I mean, how many stories have you seen where somebody has approached an author and has just, you know, gushing
Christina: you changed my
Matt: maybe, maybe tears, right? Like, you've literally changed my life. I felt this way, and then I read your book, and then now I felt this, you know, I feel like this.
Or I finally had somebody, it felt like they saw me.
Christina: Yes.
Matt: I felt like I was an actual human being for the first time because your book made me feel like I was there and
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: of this whole thing. So absolutely. I think there's that service level. I think it's as deep as it wants to go. It's just, I think as an author, it's, it's your job to set it free.
Christina: Yeah, very true. I like that it's your job as an author to set it free. Uh, what books do you think are the most impactful[00:08:00]
Matt: Hmm.
Christina: and I. You don't need to name specific books. You can name a style book or
Matt: I think. Not even books per se, but story.
Christina: story.
Matt: Right. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna go to story and I'm gonna say the types of stories that are so intricately woven that you don't realize they're happening.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: into it, you're so a part of it that you don't realize the mechanics of, it's somebody telling you a story.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: Um, and a good example of that is it's a, you know, it's from rent. For example, so Rent. Fantastic story in its own right. Lots of amazing characters. Angel is a character that you don't see coming,
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: which is a weird statement considering Angel's very, very there, very loud, very boisterous character, right?
But a very sweet character. [00:09:00] You don't see Angel coming, and I'm sorry if you haven't seen Rent that's on you. It's been out for years. But when Angel dies. It is a sucker punch because you don't realize how impactful that character
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: And I think a lot of times stories that are like that, that can along almost in kind of a tricksy way.
Christina: Yeah, I was, I was just gonna say that it's like, you know, your example of Angel is perfect for what you're trying to say because it's like Angel sucks you in for the, from the moment you know he's there, he's loud and he's loving and you know, all of these great things, and you just fall in love. And the minute you fall in love, you're like.
Oh, no,
Matt: Yep. But you don't even realize you're with Angel. That's the funny part, right? so interesting to me because it's this, [00:10:00] it sounds like a negative word, it's this side character who's over here who, you know, comes in once in a while, splash then goes back out. But it's like the minute they're no longer there, it's like, fuck
Track 1: yeah.
Matt: wow.
Like there, you know, it just, it's super emotional. So anyway, stories like that, I think that really just pull you along without you knowing. Are just crucial.
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I think that was, uh, that was, um, a really great example of what I call, um, and. You know, some of my clients and things we call layering, you know, you've got the basic story structure. You know what you wanna do, you know how you want your audience to feel, and you're taking 'em on a journey that is unexpected, you know?
But you're not necessarily gonna have that in the first draft. You know, you're gonna have the structure of, you know, I've got these main characters. They're gonna sing these songs, they're gonna have this journey. And then there's angel. You know, that's the whole, you know, crux of the [00:11:00] story. So, no, that's great.
I
Matt: focused over here.
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Yep,
Matt: look over here, and then
Christina: yep, yep.
Matt: So.
Christina: Um, what is the best piece of writing invite advice you've ever received?
Matt: I shouldn't, I shouldn't say this because it's going to, it's gonna come off as if this was planned and if this was that. This was like planted, if you
Christina: Yeah, no, not planted. You didn't, you didn't know, uh, any, you didn't know any of this in advance.
Matt: I did not. I honestly didn't. Um, but I'm just gonna say it and you're just gonna have to deal with it. It honestly is when you said, just give me the mess. Like first draft. Just gimme the mess. Just get it out on paper. I. It should look kind of like garbage. That's okay. Because it's the raw, you know, it's the raw clay.
We're gonna build something outta that, gonna be able to pull the [00:12:00] pieces that really matter out of it and shape it into something beautiful. And it's, I say that's the best because it was the most freeing advice.
Christina: Yes.
Matt: Because you're worrying so much about is what I'm writing a pile of garbage, literally, or is it really good stuff,
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: And being able to say, just get the mess out. Get it out there, get it so that somebody else can help you walk through and
Christina: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: Um, that was honestly the best.
Christina: Yeah. Um, thank you for that. And no, again, reminding the audience that was not
Matt: It really wasn't.
Christina: And in fact, I not even think that he was, I, I ask this to all writers all the time, what's the best piece of writing advice? Simply because, you know, that's how other people learn. The best advice, um, is by passing it along, but.
You actually hit it on the head about why I give that advice. Why I work with my clients in that way is the freedom.
Matt: Mm-Hmm
Christina: You [00:13:00] cannot have great creativity if you are stifled, if you are not free to write, you know, a million things that, again, you could edit 'em all out later, but one of those million threads that you're putting in there.
Is the seed of something,
Matt: Yep.
Christina: the seed of something great that once and again, I can't tell you how much I love this answer because you know, it, it comes down to that when you're done with that first draft and you take that step back and breathe, like that's when all the ideas actually come in.
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: That's when all the greatness actually happens.
And there have been numerous people that I've worked with that I have seen them almost literally bleed onto the keyboard. [00:14:00] Drag themselves to the keyboard every day and every single peck was costing blood. Um, and that's not, that's no way to write. And that's not a book I wanna read as a reader, because I'm gonna feel that.
So, yeah. Yeah. You need the freedom of the creativity.
Matt: you do. You do. You have to be able to say, and I think, I don't know, you just talked about seeds too. I think that's even a better analogy. I've talked about this as being clay and you know, kind of giving you the somewhat molded clay and then saying, let's work on this together to refine it. But I think it's actually even better than that.
I think it is. It. Your first draft is sowing the field and planting the seeds, and you're throwing all kinds of seeds out there, and then you're gonna come back later where hopefully some of them started to grow and you can, and there'll be some
Christina: sprouts of
Matt: out the weeds and some of the actual really good, you know, plants that took root.[00:15:00]
You can nurture
Christina: yeah,
Matt: and I think it's a better analogy than the clay
Christina: yeah. I don't think, um, since starting my business and working it the way that I do, all of my clients have learned this and have. Express to me at later dates. Oh my God, I love the editing process. I love second drafts, thirds drafts, and like, these are where all the ideas are. And this is, I, this was so much easier.
This was so much better. This was so much, you know, and, and going on and on. Um, but really, um, the seed, actually, this is the first time tonight that I'm saying the seed. Normally I say it's the Marin Morris song, the Bones. The bones are good as long as the bones of the story are there. That's all you need.
That's all you need for first draft is the bones of the house, the structure of the house. Then you put up the siding and the walls and the, you know, start [00:16:00] shaping the cabinets and, you know, the, the floor plans and all of that. Then you start bringing in the furniture, and then the last level is. The details, the details of the decorations, of the pictures, of the, you know, um, curtains of the, you know, whatever.
So. Yep.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Christina: Awesome. Um,
Matt: bit.
Christina: who are your favorite authors, and there is a second part to this,
Matt: Okay.
Christina: and how do they influence your writing?
Matt: Hmm. So I'm gonna say Stephen King or uh, Orson Scott card. Um, I would put probably James Patterson in there as well. Um, honestly, Dan Brown, a couple of my friends are gonna be really mad about that, but okay. They'll get over it. Um. Hmm. There's others, but I think those are the major ones.
Christina: Okay, so how do break 'em down? How do they each influence your writing or, um, another way to phrase that would be,[00:17:00] um, what have you learned from their writing? Like, what have you taken and said, you know what? That's a really great way to do that. Let me try it in my own.
Matt: Gosh, that's a hard question. Um, it's a hard question because I was always so terrified of sounding like another author or sound or writing like another author, and I always sort of, I don't know, like when I'm reading, a lot of times for me. Is really just to get to their stories. And I don't know that I've ever critically thought about other than on the occasion, like we've talked about Stephanie Meyer, or we've talked about certain, you know, certain other authors.
Right. But I don't know. I will say Stephen King's book on writing
Christina: Yep.
Matt: was phenomenal. It is a, an amazing read. If you haven't read it, um, please do. 'cause especially if you want to get, you know, writing and really, really get going, like, it's, it's [00:18:00] phenomenal work.
Christina: that one and the War of Art by Stephen Pressfield are really the only writing books that I recommend. There there have been some others where, you know, um, my clients have said, oh, this really helped me. I keep those in a little, you know, file in case people are requesting, but, you know, and. I that's, you know, that is not exactly what I mean by the question here.
I'll explain it a little bit better this way. So, um, one of my all time favorite books is Untamed by Glennon Doyle, but the editor in me can recognize that the first half of the book is so fantastic and stellar and like blew me away. the second half kind of fizzled for me. Um, and the interesting thing was this weekend I was having a conversation with, um, a good friend and [00:19:00] we both read the book and she was actually mad that she bought the hardcover.
She said, I should just bought it on Kindle. And I'm like, no, I'm happy I did. Because I look at it and it reminds me. First of all, how great it is and how it impacted me in the first half. And that was enough. That's all I needed to get from that book. Um, but it also reminds me that you never want to leave something so fantastic ending on a iffy wishy, what, you wo um, but also to help my clients make sure that their.
Front end matches their backend. Um, you know, so it's more what have you gleaned from their writing that you're like, this is great and I need to work on that more. Or, you know, oh, I need to avoid that because that was not great.
Matt: Yeah.[00:20:00] Uh, I can say for sure that I do remember reading "It" by Stephen King. Being really, really upset that it was this giant like alien spider thing at the end, because it felt to me like a huge cop out.
Christina: Ah, yes.
Matt: it felt to me like, ugh. Like really? I mean, why
Christina: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: now I haven't read it in years, right? This is when I younger, like super young.
So it's also possible that. Upon rereading it that I would discover something completely different about that and feel
Christina: Yeah. Yep. Which all
Matt: remember the time being like, really? Like, that's like, you have this whole great story leading up to this and that, that that's what you do with it. Right? so mad about it.
Christina: Yeah. So even the best writers
Matt: yes.
Christina: mistakes.
Matt: Yep. Even the best writers, um, at, again, at least in the, the, um. Filter of my young mind, right. I wrote that, or as I read that. [00:21:00] I think for other, for other writers, when I read their works, I think sometimes a lot about how they start their stories. And what I mean by that is just, you know, do they start in the middle of an action? Sequenced, you know, kind of throwing you like literally into the deep end of the pool and hope you figure out what's going on. Um, is there a lot of buildup, exposition and detail and description that quite frankly could get very, very boring, but like, how do they write, how do they start their story?
Where does it kick off? How does it pull you in if it does?
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: Um, and I, I can certainly say like reading a lot of authors, that's one thing I, I absolutely look at. 'cause for, and honestly too, for somebody who, uh, has a DD because a lot of my stories and projects go unfinished, the beginning most sense is why I'm most attracted to that because that's, you know, so many times that's the only thing I got to.
Um, so that also kinda makes sense. But yeah. I think those are the only things I can really [00:22:00] think of that I really at least consciously looked at from
Christina: Right.
Matt: how other writers do their thing.
Christina: Right. So that is, um, the last of my really big questions. The question I do wanna end on is, uh, what is the dream, what is the ultimate goal for you, for your writing? And it could be anything and you're not beholden to it because you could change your mind later on. And there are great people who are great writers who just write for themselves.
But you know, what is the thing that you wanna get out of your writing? I,
Matt: That's another good question. Um, they're all good
Christina: I dunno.
Matt: Um, I mean, you know, I would love to be a less problematic JK Rowling and create a Harry Potter universe, right? To create a. A universe that just is so immersive that you could literally build a theme [00:23:00] park around it. Um, that everybody wants to be a part of it, right?
Like who go, you know, everybody, they go to Universal Studios to go to Harry Potter to get a wand and to go through the experience. 'cause they wanna be a part of it. Right? So I would absolutely say I would love that. I think more realistically, just being able to get messages that people connect with out there, that people.
You know, really enjoy that. It helps. Helps them in some way.
Christina: yeah, yeah. You wanna connect, you wanna connect and affect,
Matt: Yes.
Christina: and I think that's what all writers, I. Wanna do all authors.
Matt: Leave a thumbprint on their soul.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: Yep.
Christina: Well, thank you so much for answering all my questions and I don't think
Matt: thank you.
Christina: I don't think you revealed too much about yourself. I think you only revealed stuff about your writing.
You're still the
Matt: Okay, I can still be a man of mystery.
Christina: You are still a man of mystery to our audience.
Matt: [00:24:00] Oh, thank God. I was gonna, you know, worried about that.
Awesome. Well, no, thank you so much. I, I super enjoyed that. Um, and I think for season two, as we progress, like what you're going to see. Here is you're gonna hear more things about more specific, like writing techniques. Um, again, we're not taking this in the approach of this is a, you know, a college class or a, something that you should sit down and listen to and like, you know, practice necessarily.
But we do hope to kind of talk a little bit more, um, about the craft of writing and get more perspectives on the craft of writing and kind of pull it in. So I think as we go through this season, you're gonna see more and more of that as well, which pretty cool.
Christina: Yeah, and I think, um, you know, my intention is always to give the audience the advice that they're not gonna get anywhere else.
Matt: Mm-Hmm,
Christina: else are you gonna hear an editor say, I want the mess. You know, encourage people to have the mess. Um, there are other things too that we'll talk about in, uh, future episodes that, you know, and again, could [00:25:00] be going against the grain.
Um, but that's what we're gonna do. You know, if that's what's going to free people to write. They're called to write, you know, 'cause that's what we need out there. We don't need, you know, hundreds of other just average writers. We need the people that are gonna make the impacts.
Matt: exactly. We need more thumbprints on our soul.
Christina: Yes. I'm excited for season two.
Matt: Me too. Awesome. Well thank you my darling. I appreciate you and thank you for listening and we'll see you again next time. Bye.
Christina: Bye.