Matt: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to Write Out Loud, the podcast about writing, storytelling, authorship, and getting your creative works out there and maybe how to do that a little bit better. I, of course, am Matt Cassem, and I'm here with the lovely, brilliant, talented, and serendipitous Christina.

Christina: Serendipitous. What does that even mean in the context of attributes of a person?

Matt: It just,

Christina: Serendipitous.

Matt: as, it was serendipity that brought me to you,

Christina: Oh, yes,

Matt: That brought us to this podcast and, you

Christina: very much.

Matt: Right.

Christina: Very much.

Matt: that's what I bring.

Christina: I'll accept that. I'll accept that.

Matt: Well, let's, let's talk about this. So today's episode is

Christina: Yes,

Matt: to be a surprise to me, at least

Christina: yes,

Matt: Tina had said, basically, listen.

I've got something we're gonna talk about, we're gonna record. I'm not telling you what it is you're gonna find out and I want your actual reaction. And I was like, [00:01:00] okay,

Christina: yes,

Matt: game on. Let's do this.

Christina: yes.

Matt: Tell me what, what do you got going on?

Christina: Okay. So this weekend Netflix released a movie called "Damsel."

Matt: mm-Hmm?

Christina: super excited about this movie for months. Months, because I love Millie Bobby Brown, and I loved the idea that I had heard this movie was about. Their tagline is, "This is not a fairy tale."

Matt: Okay.

Christina: So, I found my time this weekend, in and amongst doing my taxes. To watch this movie and oh my God, I will never get those two hours back.

Matt: Oh no.

Christina: But there is a, but, but I kept thinking about the why. And in fact, all I [00:02:00] could think about was. Great story, poorly written. Like, it was this great story, and idea. And then, poorly written, parenthesis, execution. And it made me think of that meme that I know every single writer out there has seen.

That is like, story in my head. Story on paper, it's the idea versus execution and really pretty much how do you get from that great story to great writing and great execution, because then you have, winner, winner, chicken dinner. But when you go from great story idea.

And then a poorly executed, poorly written script, and in, in Millie Bobby Brown's defense, because I love her movies maybe not the Godzilla ones, but her Enola Holmes, Stranger Things, Eleven, [00:03:00] she's a very smart girl, very smart. So it really kind of surprised me at some of the things, and again, actors don't always have.

Total control over a project, but she's, she's pretty powerful. And I am sure that whoever wrote, and had the idea for this movie was ecstatic that she was going to be, the leading role. They also had Robin Wright, my favorite princess buttercup as the, evil queen. Angela Bassett was the stepmother to Millie Bobby Brown's character.

And of course there were other people that were in it and, so you had a great cast. I mean, that cast should have been able to carry the movie. But there were times when my eyes were rolling so far back into my head, I thought I might pass out. Because, a lot of it, okay, [00:04:00] this is part of the problem.

They had twists and turns. That the biggest twist they actually showed in the trailer and I thought, okay, whoever marketed this and put together the trailer Should have kind of left that piece of it out so that it was a surprise, but I knew it was coming Someone else online complained because of course I had to go to the reviews and see what everybody else was saying And a lot of them were saying okay, it took a half an hour to get to the 

Um, 

which is true.

They did draw that piece out, but they had to draw that piece out.

Matt: I saw the, the, the artwork on it and we were trying to figure out a movie that we wanted to watch and I hovered over it and I

Christina: Oh, you did.

Matt: supposed to marry this prince, right? But then she gets like, to a dragon or something.

Christina: Yes, that is correct.

Matt: like, can love overcome, that sort of thing, right?

That's the, I guess the premise of

Christina: No, no, no, there's no love in this at all.[00:05:00] 

Matt: There's no love. Okay. God, maybe that's the problem.

Christina: No, I have no problem with there being no love, no redemption of the Prince, and that's just the thing as a romance reader to me, even though he didn't want to do this and he was kind of a pawn in the whole thing too. He never questioned and never. Stopped.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: in the end when Millie Bobby Brown, surprise, surprise, escapes the dragon and comes back and they're all in shock, and of course the prince is now marrying another woman that they are going to sacrifice he's like, Oh, I didn't want to do it.

I didn't, I've been forced into this just like you. And I'm going, okay, that's roll my eyes again. Because that's not, no, no,

Matt: a cop out.

Christina: that's no, that's a red flag. That is a red flag waving guy who just follows orders and doesn't have a mind of his own, doesn't have a [00:06:00] strength of his own. I mean, he even, Oh, so innocently whispers before he throws her over the edge.

I'm sorry. Yeah, so no, this, this was not a fairy tale.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: how they should have said it, in their, their tagline. But again, I didn't come to it for that. I came to it for Millie Bobby Brown was, the princess and I'm putting that in air quotes because she doesn't actually become Royalty until she marries him and then five minutes later.

He's thrown her over to sacrifice to the dragon

Matt: Okay.

Christina: I don't know the actress's name But the voice of the dragon was so perfect Perfection. She is I want to say an Iranian born act, actress, which she has been in a lot of stuff. So I think a lot of people would recognize and recognize her voice because it is very, very smoky.

Matt: Okay. I know who

Christina: yeah,

Matt: know who [00:07:00] you're talking about

Christina: yeah, yeah. Are you looking it up? Is that what you're doing?

Matt: Mm-Hmm.

Christina: So while you're looking that up, I'll kind of go back to the idea that this was such a great idea that Millie Bobby Brown's character was going to be sacrificed. And instead of being a damsel, she was going to save herself.

And, she was Slay the dragon, if you will. Now, the twist that I won't talk about is actually the twist of the dragon itself. I'll leave that if people want to see it and leave that little nugget of surprise. That's the piece that surprised me and I was, happy about. And as a writer, I would have Been like, Oh man.

Okay. Well, you know what? You've got these good ideas, but the execution was what was bad. It was the words coming out of their mouth. That was bad. It was the idea that everything was kind of predictable to a point. [00:08:00] And the stuff that was a surprise, was kind of dotted and overshadowed. You couldn't get out of.

The bad stuff, in the beginning and Angela Bassett there was, I think that, I think it was on the Mary Sue an article saying she was, so underused and they're absolutely correct. She was underused and again, a little bit of a weak character, which Angela Bassett is not. A weak character.

She was, Black Panther's mother, the queen, she was Tina Turner. She was, what is that movie where she lights the fire and throws it behind her in the car with, her husband's clothes.

Matt: Mm.

Christina: Becomes a flame in it. Yeah. So, I mean, there were, there were so many moments that could have happened.

And again, it really reminded me of that meme, the story in the writer's head versus the story on the page were [00:09:00] two different things. And I can imagine that when Millie Bobby Brown was opposed, approached that they handed this to her and she went, Oh my God, this is such a great idea. The princess saves herself.

She saves, the kingdom and, everything else. All the other women that were being sacrificed, all the other princesses that were being sacrificed, the daughters, so yeah, again, story, idea versus poorly written execution. So, did you find the name of that actress?

Matt: Yes. So the voice of the dragon is Shoray Aghdashloo as you said, she is an Iranian

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: I know her from 24 actually.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: and that's kind of where I first was, 

Christina: And she was, yeah, and she was fantastic as the voice of the dragon. Fantastic. And a lot of the dragon [00:10:00] scenes. were, really cool the labyrinth that she goes through. She, Millie Bobby Brown, did a little too much screaming for me for being a non damsel. I mean, I can understand a little bit of screams in the beginning, but once you figure out that the dragon can hear your screams, can we stop screaming?

Matt: scary. Yeah....

Christina: but I think the screams

Matt: hmm.

Christina: again, to cover up the fact that she had to act by herself. For, a good portion of the movie and again, I don't blame that on Millie Bobby Brown. I blame that on the writer. The writer needs to write that stuff in there. What is the, if the problem is the actor's on screen by themselves for a whole 30 minutes and what do I do?

You create things that they can do. They don't have to speak. Then, maybe you amplify the voice over. dragon or the [00:11:00] music or, make it interesting. They did have a few times where, previous damsels had written their name on the wall. And so there was stuff that they could have put in and her screaming .

And like, it was almost as if like. She got paid by the times her mouth opened, I don't know. But this, this movie right afterwards, I was like, Oh my God, that's two hours out of my life. I won't get back again. But then it really got my brain going because there were, like I said, there were some good things out of it.

If you're studying screenwriting, I would definitely. Go and watch it to be able to go back and go, okay, this is what I would have changed with it. And I'm, I'm actually surprised that Hollywood doesn't do this of like, they have test audiences and stuff, but like, [00:12:00] why didn't test audiences come out and say, Hey, there's some problems with this.

And if there was no test audience, then, why aren't there like, I know there are script doctors of like, oh, this isn't working. Let's send it to a script doctor. They can change some things or whatever. But why don't they have someone who like, knows storytelling and knows, you know what? This isn't gonna work.

And if you've got like, again, it took 30 minutes into it for her to, be engaged, meet the prince, get married, there was all this space that they could have done other things with. And the point of the movie, the idea of the movie is for the damsel to be saving herself.

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: Then there should have been. More time with that and again, she's alone So you got to make it [00:13:00] work and then you know I wish there was a little bit more to the ending as well because it was too quick to me It was like that's over, and there was one thing One thing that her character wanted was to travel around the world and I just don't feel we got like, what does she get out of this?

Is she going back to her own? Like, cause there was a little bit of like, she was telling her family one thing like, I've set it up so you can do this, this and this. And it sounded like, okay, she's going to go off and travel the world, but then she's on the ship with them and they're all headed back home.

So I don't know, there was a little, again, there were so many problems with this, this movie that I just, but what happened was I think it was the next morning. Cause I was taking my shower and I kept thinking and seeing that, meme of. The story idea, what's on paper. So I kind of want to delve a little bit into how do you get it [00:14:00] onto paper?

How do you take that thing that is so clear in your head? And get it onto paper so that it's good, and I think that's, I think it's possible. But yeah, what are your thoughts?

Matt: well, I guess my question to you is this, if you're, if one of your authors had come to you and given you this. This, idea, but now it's down on paper and that's what it, that's what came out of it. What would your specific feedback be to them to help make it

Christina: My answer is going to be multi pronged because the first thing I do as the editor. Okay. Is look at the big picture. I read it from beginning to end before... I will take notes.

I will write down thoughts that come to my head, but I won't actually know what I'm going to talk to them about until I've read the whole thing because I think [00:15:00] once you sit back. So if I had seen. The 1st half to the script or the 2nd half, if we cut the damsel movie into 3 and calling it the 1st half before she's thrown over the cliff, the labyrinth and the dragon, this, this, the 2nd part and the 3rd part being the after, I would, if I had seen only 1 of the parts.

I would have not seen a full picture and I would not have been able to go, well, this doesn't work because it was the whole that didn't work. And if I were speaking to that writer, I would have said, you really need to tighten up the first piece. We don't need that. That's not part of the story. That's not the interesting part.

It is not where the story starts. I have said this to my clients. Where does the story start start there? And if there's things that you have to explain that happened previous to that, then you figure [00:16:00] out ways of putting that in there. Either a conversation with 2 characters talking about this incident that happened or.

Showing a flashback, of an important scene that was, instrumental instead of, instead of starting with that important scene and then going on to things, it, it, it doesn't work as well. So I would have said. Tighten up that first half. We, we come in and, they're already on the ship already over.

You can talk about how you got the engagement. You don't need to see their land. That's, you tell the people. Okay. Show versus tell this is one of those points that you just tell the people that your kingdom is falling apart You don't have to show them that the kingdom is falling apart and that they're you know They don't have enough firewood to and then Millie Bobby Brown is chopping the firewood You don't need that Get rid of it.

Start on the [00:17:00] ship. We're heading there.

Matt: drives the story forward.

Christina: Yes. You want the story to move forward quickly so that you get to the part that is going to interest the audience. Then, like I said, I would have gotten rid of all the screaming and would have said, You've got to work out, you've got to work out stuff here that is going to showcase the actress without her screaming.

Because by this point, she goes I'm either going to get my shit together, or I'm going to be eaten by the dragon.

Matt: Mm hmm. Mm

Christina: Those are your two options and she does choose actively to get her shit together and try to figure a way out of this situation. And and they, they did a very good job. So the other thing I, I do in my editing is I always figure out what they did well, because if you tell someone what they did well, They'll [00:18:00] lean into it.

They will understand. Okay. This is my strength. This is what I do. This is, and so what this movie did really well was figure out another twist as to why the dragon required these sacrifices of these princesses and how this kingdom had manipulated the situation and lied to everyone.

 And I did really like the way the final battle between Millie Bobby Brown and forgive me, I don't even remember the character's name. I think it was like Elodie. I think they called her Ellie or something like that. The last battle with the dragon was actually very clever and very smart.

And again, I think that's what was missing from this. It felt like it should have been a smart show. It felt like it should have been smart. Like her Enola Holmes stuff, I consider that to be very smart, very witty, very engaging to the audience. And not because she talks to the [00:19:00] camera, but because, she's a smart character in that.

We want to follow smart characters. We don't want to follow the dumb characters unless it's a horror movie. And then everybody's a dumb character because they all walk into the fricking shed that has all the machetes and are surprised when the person comes and takes one and. Kills them with it.

Matt: Yep. Well, if the whole point of it is that she's the damsel, she's going to save herself.

Christina: Yes.

Matt: smart enough to do that, then make her smart enough to figure things out more quickly and

Christina: Yeah. And again this kind of movie, if they're talking runtime, they wanted to get it as close to two hours as possible, which, something needs to be said for length of time of a movie. You don't need to be a three hour movie in order to qualify for the Oscars. You don't need to be a two hour movie to be considered good.

An hour and a half movie. Yes. That kind of dings in my head and goes, is there much meat to that bone? But you know what, [00:20:00] if you forget. That it's only been an hour and a half? Like, oh my gosh. What? Where did the time go?

Matt: Yep.

Christina: Job well done. Job well done. If you could do that in two hours, all the better. Because then we think, oh my god, I just sat and watched a two hour movie and minutes flew by, so, 

Matt: I think it's also a situation where you think about people that tell you stories in their, in your life. And you're like, do you want their story to go on for two hours? Or would you prefer an hour and 24 minutes? Like

some people you're going to be like, yeah, two hours is a glorious thing because this person is well versed in it and others, you're going to be like, hey, listen, just tell me the punchline,

Christina: Yes,

Matt: So I think it's the same way.

Same with making movies and script writers tell your story in as an engaging way as possible.

Christina: as

Matt: I don't

Christina: succinctly as possible.

Matt: Succinctly and as engagingly as possible. And it doesn't matter what that time is. As long as you do that, if you can stay to that piece, [00:21:00] then if it does happen to be two hours, it's because it needed to be two hours.

Christina: Yeah. Yes. And the same can be true for books. So books, movies, make it what it needs to be for the story, instead of trying to make it fit a particular category. Now, I know that New York traditional publishing, they have word counts that each thing fits into. And so, yes, you do have to keep that in mind.

But figure out what the story is, how most engagingly and succinctly as possible, and then worry about, okay, I'm 10, 000 words short. Okay. So can you add a scene? Can you add an epilogue? Can you, what can you do then to add to it? So you're not fluffing it, 

Matt: mm

Christina: I think the [00:22:00] same can be said for movies write the script first, then, if you need to add things here and there, or take things out because it's too long and it doesn't work and, yeah, I think there are ways of doing it. And in fact we had Scarlett Cole on last week and I read her recent release and she had a cut scene and she explained she couldn't fit it in anywhere, but it was a fun scene and she wanted her readers, to be able to enjoy it. And, here it is in her newsletter.

So I think there are ways of doing it. But it works for marketing and enjoyment for the readers. And if it just didn't work in anywhere, see, to me, that's, again, that's smart editing figuring out there really isn't a great place for the scene, but it's a great scene set it aside and use it, for marketing later.

You really can't do that with movies. There's. Usually not well, there is in the DVD, back in the day when they [00:23:00] used to release DVDs, there was, deleted scenes and you'd click on that and you'd be like, yep, they all should have been cut.

Matt: Yep. Yep. 100%. Yeah, I think Scarlett also talked about, the bookstore engineering

Christina: Yes.

Matt: by Larry Brooks, right?

Christina: Yes.

Matt: she kind of chose the, the four act as her model based off of that.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: so I think, to your, to your earlier question, like, how do you. Get that idea down on paper, You start to think about kind of how you look at it as an editor.

You think about the

Christina: Yes.

Matt: first and what's the overall story and then you kind of pick it apart into the, into its base components

Christina: Yeah. And if you're talking,

Matt: do you tell it as succinctly as possible,

Christina: yeah, and if you're, if you are formatting your book in that way, in those four acts, you can actually start just by this is act one. This is what needs to happen to Act 3, Act 4, just as [00:24:00] guideposts, in your writing.

Matt: Write each act a little note index card, right? Just jot it down, put it out and you can kind of play around with that. It gives you some freedom to kind of move things around and then you can add. More index cards underneath each one that says, okay, these are the scenes or, beats.

If you want to call them that here's what has to happen in this in order for this to happen and to get us to the point where we can move to act three and then act four and, and so on.

Christina: That's a really, really smart way to do it. Honestly.

Matt: I think there's another there's something you had said in a previous episode that, that comes to mind too, of write in reverse,

Christina: Yes.

Matt: right? Get to the end where you want to end up. And then how do you back yourself out of that? Into the story a little bit, especially if you're stuck,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: say, well, ultimately I need to get here, but I'm not quite sure how to do it.

So let me try to back through this and how would that work?

Christina: yeah,

Matt: you can use that sort of [00:25:00] troubleshoot as well.

Christina: yeah. Well, and that lends to, when you were saying if you're stuck when you're stuck, it's usually because you haven't thought yet of that third option, or the fourth option or fifth option or whatever it is that you're looking for. You can only see a couple of ways of solving whatever it is that you've written yourself into on the paper.

So, for instance, with damsel, if he wrote himself into a, oh, crap moment. She's gonna be a half an hour on screen by herself. How do I do this? Yeah, you've just got to think of that way that he didn't think of you know instead let's just have her screen

Matt: Yeah, it's true. It does make me think though. 

So screenplay and executive producers, Dan Mizzou.

Christina: What else has he done?

Matt: Dan has done Armada, Two for the Money, Luna Park, and Cowboy Ninja [00:26:00] Viking. He was a writer on all four of those.

Christina: Okay. The only one,

Matt: also a screenplay and story on Fast X and Wrath of the Titans.

Christina: I'm not familiar enough with any of those movies to go in and say whether or not he's, what the issue would have been. Cause sometimes, and the thing is, I don't want to blame the screenwriter either because I know how movies work. Sometimes executives get ahold of them and say, This needs to happen, and they change things.

True detective on HBO. Everybody lauded season one with Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson, and I was super, super, super excited for the most recent season with Jodie Foster and Oh, gosh, I'm going to forget her name former, I think she was an MMA boxer turned actor but she was fantastic.

I really should figure out what her name is,

Matt: Hmm.[00:27:00] 

Christina: but the thing,

Matt: not Gina Carano?

Christina: no, no. So the thing is, I had heard and read that the creator of it and the story she wanted, HBO bought it and said, can we turn this into a true detective?

And right there, my little ding, ding, ding went off because I thought, okay, that's why on one hand, I sometimes loved what was going on. And then on the other hand, it felt very forced. And that forced was because, now is it the studio's fault? Is it the writer's fault? I don't know. Maybe. 

Matt: Too hard to tell now because we couldn't see the original,

Christina: right.

Matt: know, where it started from and where they took it.

Christina: But here's what I do know is that it doesn't matter if the studio told you to do it or [00:28:00] not and you accepted it. Both are choices. Okay. So if you make the choice, okay, the studio says do this and I'm choosing to do this, then go all in and make it work.

Matt: Mm

Christina: just like, Oh, all I've got to do is brush stroke here and brush stroke there.

 My philosophy isn't the glass of water half full or half empty. It's the idea that it's refillable. It's refillable. So when you are writing. And you're trying to take that idea and execute it.

You just have to keep remembering that you're the creator and you can fix anything that doesn't go right. You can fill the glass of water if you change your mind on something. You can drink the water if you change your mind again. But the idea is, is that it's flexible and it's [00:29:00] workable.

Matt: We end up, running into the constraints. So I think sometimes we give them a little credit because eventually there comes a deadline that they need it done by. So they have to

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: They end up getting rushed into it, or they run out of budget or whatever. A number of reasons that studios like to put into place.

I will say this though. So said, mr Mezzo, the

Christina: Yes.

Matt: He wrote fast X fast 10, I guess it is

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: wrath of the Titans, both of which on IMDb have a 5. 7 and a 5. 8

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: damsel was given a 6. 3. So I will say this Dan is

Christina: He did better.

Matt: wrath

Christina: Yes.

Matt: 5. 7 fast 10.

5. 8 and damsel 6. 3. So we're getting,

Christina: We're getting better.

Matt: maybe he's newer at this, but he's been writing since 2012. So,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: We'll see, but I think, I think it's never too late for a writer to improve and to get better at what they do and to [00:30:00] focus on doing that. Right. And like to,

Christina: Absolutely.

Matt: the feedback and be open to the learning and growing and becoming a better version of yourself.

Christina: Absolutely.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: think there's a writer out there,

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: that I haven't come across

Matt: Mm

Christina: that,

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: Either has marked growth where you go, wow, they just keep getting better and bringing new stuff out. They're a great storytelling voice. But at the end of the day you, you really do have to choose to grow as a writer to continue to engage with the, the reader.

Something I don't think I've ever said on this podcast, but in my, 25, 30 years that I've been doing this, I've never forgotten that I'm a reader. I always start from the reader perspective [00:31:00] when I'm editing, when I'm watching a movie, I start from the consumer perspective and then I do whatever job it is I need to do.

And I don't know if this part of the conversation with Scarlett Cole, was actually in the podcast but she talked about being a reader and, again, being 1 of my favorite authors, I don't think any of my list of favorite authors have forgotten that they're readers. And so I think a parting thought.

That I want to give everyone is don't forget that you're a reader. So in your editing process, in the process of getting your story idea onto the paper, the great idea to a great execution, don't ever forget that you're a reader. And so when you finish, go back and read it, read it as a reader, not as the writer, [00:32:00] not figuring out what needs to be fixed, but as a reader.

And see what happens.

Matt: And I think, don't be afraid to look for those examples of terrible movies, even though, terrible books, right? Even though you know you're giving up a lot of your time. And time is one thing we don't ever

Christina: Yes.

Matt: Don't do too many of them, but it's fine to go find one that you're like, this is, this is really, really kind of bad.

And let's figure out

Christina: Yes.

Matt: And if I was right, if I was rewriting this, what would I do differently?

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: can inform what you do. As a writer and where you take your craft

Christina: Absolutely.

Matt: lessons that you can pull out of that. So, don't be afraid to do that. I think definitely look at those works of art that are good, but be careful that you're not trying to latch on to a certain style,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: Take the lesson of how it was constructed, take the lessons about how it moved the story forward, take the lesson about that stuff. Try not to. Absorb style.

Christina: Yeah. I don't know who said it, who I can attribute it to, but they [00:33:00] talk about failure, not as failure. It's learning. It's not failure. It's learning. And so. With Damsel, I think there's going to be a lot of learning around it. Like you said, as a consumer, if you're watching it, yeah, you figure out what you would have done differently.

How would you have told the writer to fix their stuff? I think it's very, like you said, I think it is very valuable to look at the things that aren't as great because that does help you learn from somebody else's. learning experience.

Matt: I take that honestly from just life experience where I've had terrible bosses in the past and I've had, really good mentors who were like, listen, they were actually a really good thing for you. And at the time I was like, how, how could they possibly, they're just awful people or, awful leaders.

[00:34:00] And I'm like, because you're learning what not to do. Right. You're learning, you're learning the type of leader you don't want to be.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: And that's just as valuable as me sitting here telling you, this is how you're going to do this thing. So excellent. I love it. I love

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: you did lose two hours of your life watching the movie, but look at what it brought us, right?

Christina: Yes, it did.

Matt: learning

Christina: Yes.

Matt: of being able to kind of talk through it and, and share our thoughts around

Christina: And

Matt: be all become better.

Christina: I have a feeling I'm going to bring it up again sometime. It's going to become one of those things that's, that's the example of, Oh wait. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: think so, too. very good. Well, let's put a bow on this one. But I think it was a good, a good reminder that, again, failure is not a bad thing. It is how we learn. And sometimes learning from others failure is even better.

Christina: Yes. We don't have to go through all the mistakes on that.

Matt: [00:35:00] That's true. very good. Thank you very much again for joining me.

Of course. Thanks for listening.