Read Banned Books!
Matt: Welcome everybody. It's the Write Out Loud...
She did not.
Christina: intro you've ever done.
Matt: She did not expect that one. Did she? No, no, she did not.
Christina: But you know, we need to allow our listeners on your goofy intros that you usually stop. Now we have to include this one.
Matt: Okay. All right.
Christina: to be a
Matt: All right.
Christina: You cannot edit this one out.
Matt: All right, fine. I'll do it.
Christina: by doing something funny to make me laugh before we come on.
Matt: It's just, it's usually just my warm up. All right. So here we go. Welcome. No, see, it made me laugh. Try it again. Welcome everybody to Write Out Loud, the podcast about storytelling, writing, authorship, creativity, and just being the amazing person I, of course, I'm Matt Cassem and I'm here with the lovely, incredible, amazing, immeasurable Christina.
Christina: that's a new one! Immeasurable!
Matt: hmm. Mm hmm.
Christina: To figure out more, more words to use, but IMMEASURABLE! That's a good one.
Matt: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And it fits. Well, we are here this week, as always, because you came upon a topic and it just piqued your interest and we started talking
Christina: my God.
Matt: and we thought this would be a great episode. So why don't you tell us a little bit about what it is?
Christina: Well, it is actually banned book week. Actually the airing of this podcast is going to be a day or two after banned book week is over. but banned book week should be every week in my opinion. it's an important topic for me, because my entire life, has been spent being a consumer of books, also, right out of high school, I started working at the local bookstore, eventually, worked my way up through the, offices of Borders and, has, have been connected in some way to the publishing book, buying know, writers arena for my entire, adult career. And so I've always been very, very passionate about banned books. And in fact today on threads there was a a question that was posed on what books had the most impact on your life. And right away I can tell you, I mean, everybody does this. Okay. Like, my top three books of all time are, and then, and mine just happened to be books were banned. So The Outsiders by S. E. Hinton,
Matt: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Christina: that has been on and off the banned list, uh, probably since I was, a kid. Even before that, I'm sure it was probably, banned, but maybe they didn't ban as many back in the, the day when that was actually written. To Kill a Mockingbird
Matt: Sure.
Christina: another one.
I mean, these books had such an impact on me that, I mean, they changed. My fundamental beliefs about things. The outsider actually the reason why I'm a reader. that was a book that just I'd seen the movie as a kid, loved the movie. so when I discovered it was a book, I went, Whoa, dude, I got to read this. and it changed my life because that I was buying every book she ever wrote,
Matt: Hmm.
Christina: And in fact, uh, played sick for an entire week so I could read them.
Matt: Nice. That
Christina: mother let me, uh, years later, I, I confessed to her and she goes, I know. But she let me, because she was just happy I was reading. I mean, the outside, I wouldn't be here without the outsiders. Wouldn't be here. I'd be in another career. I don't know
Matt: The origin story.
Christina: yeah, the origin story to kill a mockingbird that one, I can't even tell you what a profound influence that had on me because at the time I read it, I had no idea that racism existed. I didn't know what it was.
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: I didn't know what it was.
It wasn't because I was naive or anything like that. I grew up in rural America where I don't even think I had any in high school.
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: Not, not anyone of a different skin tone than white because it's rural America. I mean, we have to remember the context. I'm, am nearing 50. So I went to a one room schoolhouse for kindergarten. A one room schoolhouse. Those existed back then. So, that doesn't come as a surprise, but I was so impacted, by to kill a mockingbird that like, I, that's where I started my education
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: and we treat people. And, just, the entire thing. And the other one is a really recent one, Heartstopper by Alice Oseman. And it's something that I've talked about on the podcast before. For me, it was more Alice Oseman herself. The story is lovely and I think it's groundbreaking. I think it is, uh, fantastic and it will always be, on the top of my. favorites list, but it's Alice Oseman herself that impacted me and, her story about being part of the LGBTQIA community my affiliation with it, know, all of that. So, again, probably not a book on my lists that probably hasn't been banned because I think there is so much.
I've said this to you before, I believe fiction especially is the back door to learning and growth.
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: It is, but it's the back door because it's entertaining. You have
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: you're being impacted. When I read To Kill a Mockingbird, I had no idea that I was going to learn something fundamental about myself. Same with The Outsider, same with fact I'm going to bring in good old Steve, uh, Stephen King again, you and I have both said he is a genius at his craft. His
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: is one of the only writing books that I highly recommend. he posted this, oh gosh in 2023. In the last few years it's become hugely popular to start banning books again.
And this is one of another, one of the reasons why I wanted to delve into this topic today. Not just being timely, but it's crucial at this point in writing. so Stephen King on, uh, on X, not my favorite place to be, but anyway, Steve is there and he says, Hey kids, it's your old buddy Steve King telling you that if they ban a book in your school, your ass to the nearest bookstore or library ASAP and find out what they don't want you to read.
Matt: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm
Christina: that says it all. That is why we should talk about banned books. That is the crux of, why I do not believe in banning books at all. Period. Period. None. could even talk about the worst books written in humanity. Mein Kampf, Satanic Bible, if you will. I don't know. I've never read it, so I don't know.
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: but the thing is, the minute you start banning those things, who's going to stop banning? Once you start
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: stop. It doesn't stop. And my opinion is, if you don't like Mein Kampf, Don't read it. Or if you want to know and get into the minds of the people, from World War II, the Nazis, read Mein Kampf. I
Matt: Mm-Hmm?
Christina: that's how you educate yourself. It might be terrible and hard to
Matt: Oh. It will be
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: but yeah. No. It will be Mm-Hmm.
Christina: is, it's, it's still education, reading Heartstopper, even just a graphic novel, took me down a road that told me something about myself that I would have never otherwise discovered. Yeah, I just, I think it's so important Matt and I, we talked about this. Uh, before starting the podcast, we're going to have some links to, banned book sites. The site that does it is actually bannedbooksweek. org I think is what the, the link is, but we'll have that in there.
And they list year by year since they started recording this, the 10 most banned books of each year. And I think. I probably preach into the choir, most of our listeners are going to be, writers and readers. But I think even they would be surprised at some of the things. So
Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, look at this. We have a list of, the top 10 or not, I mean, a top 10, but 10 books that were banned. Right. And the reasons for the banning. So 1984 by George Orwell
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: banned because it had political content and a critiques of a totalitarian regime.
Christina: Okay. Pause. Think about that because it's political and because critiques totalitarian. Is that what you said?
Matt: Yeah. Totalitarian regime. Yep.
Christina: Yeah. Because we shouldn't critique a total, like we shouldn't do that. No.
Matt: Yeah, that might make people,
Christina: Think.
Matt: think and maybe want to be different and not be associated with that type of behavior.
Christina: Now, so again, now in the context of what this is, these are schools that are doing this, right? Not,
Matt: Schools could be libraries too. Like we've had libraries that were told.
Christina: at,
Matt: Yeah, this is just in general. This is just in general. There's no specific to it.
Christina: yeah. But I guess what I'm thinking is that's the whole point of reading books. In school is to have these discussions a safe environment kids can ask questions. Well, why did they do this? Why did they do that? What's, okay. Sorry to
Matt: Catcher in the, Catcher in the Rye by J. D. Salinger. So banned for offensive language, sexual content, and themes of rebellion, again. To Kill a Mockingbird, as you mentioned, hyperbole. Banned for racial themes and use of racial slurs.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: if that wasn't happening already, and they were going to learn it from the book and start using those words, right?
Christina: But again, if you're reading it in the context of the book, history. That is our history. And if we do not acknowledge our history and what was happening in it, we are doomed to repeat it. We are not going to learn from it. We are not going to grow from it. Again, we want a society of critical thinkers or a bunch of Stepford families?
Matt: But The Color Purple, Alice Walker. Banned for sexual explicitness and violence.
Christina: yeah,
Matt: Uh, the great Gatsby F. Scott Fitzgerald, right? Banned for language, sexual references, and depictions of alcohol use. Because, why should you
Christina: uh
Matt: use alcohol? Brave New World by Aldis Huxley.
Christina: yeah,
Matt: Banned for themes of sexuality, drug use, and anti religious sentiments. Like, how dare you criticize religion, right?
Christina: yeah,
Matt: But here's, here's the thing, like, there's, there's more on the list. I'm not gonna go through them all, but I'll say this. Every single time that there has been a move to ban books or exclude them from Certain areas.
It's literally just moral panic.
Christina: yeah,
Matt: Somebody decides, Oh, this is terrible. We shouldn't think like this. And because it's very deeply uncomfortable for them, they start to assign that to other people. And they start to think, well, no, I don't want them to feel that way. So I'm going to take these books and, make it like they shouldn't be there.
It's inappropriate.
Christina: It separates people into us and them.
Matt: Mm hmm.
Christina: It separates people in a way that does not allow or understanding or ways through conflict.
Matt: Yep. It's just, it's, it's all just that kind of knee jerk reaction that says, Oh, if somebody reads this, they might get an idea and then they might take that idea and run with it. And it's like, well, sure. Like that could happen in. Some situation, right? There could be somebody who reads something and goes, Oh gosh, I hadn't thought about that before.
That sounds like a great idea. Let's overthrow this totalitarian regime.
Christina: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: But I mean, in general, I don't know about you. Like I read.
Memoirs of a geisha. And I did not have any desire to become a geisha,
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: right? Like the books you read, it's an escape you do to your point. You'll have this backdoor to learning. There'll be things that you'll pick up out of the book and things that you'll might maybe identify with things. Maybe you won't, but it doesn't just automatically mean that because you've read something, you're going to start doing that thing,
Christina: And, and the thing is, is that one thing from my perspective as a teenager drugs and alcohol were of course things that they didn't want teenagers doing. But the thing is, the more it was held away from you secret, like holding it in a secret. And all of that, the more curious they get, the more they, the more you tell someone, no, the more they're like, dude, don't tell me no again, because then I'm going to do it.
Matt: it's because the,
Christina: things.
Matt: the human brain can't handle negative commands.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: It doesn't know how to process a negative command. Don't do that. Like it just. It makes you, it's the same reason why, you know the kid, little kid, you tell 'em, don't run into the street, and they, okay, here I go. Like,
Christina: yeah, yeah. Speaking of kids so I came across, this list of children's books and for me as I started reading the list I got to, and yes, this is truly one of the books, The American Heritage Dictionary
Matt: Mm mm-Hmm.
Christina: challenged, banned. And for me, that's where I kind of stopped and I was, okay, this is ridiculous. And of the reasons it was banned was it had used slang words. Due to its use as a verb in slang,
Matt: Well, specifically the word bed. Mm-Hmm.
Christina: So it's like, I'm sorry. What? Yeah, the other, the other book I was just like, know, it's one of the most banned children's authors Dr. Seuss. And the number one reason is because he uses words that aren't real.
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: Okay. But guess what? Children, especially that age, love the rhyming and repetitious stuff. Okay. That's number one. two, it opens up creativity. Imagination And those are two things that every human being should have fostered at a young age,
Matt: Oh yeah.
Christina: you
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: What was it that I think it was president Bush number two.
So junior.
Matt: Hmm.
Christina: George W.
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: I think he's the one who said it after 9 11. It was the failure of imagination. One of the, why couldn't they stop this terror attack? Because it was a failure of imagination.
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: people did this. Okay. Afterwards, they went to writers, they went to spy novelists and said, how do, how do we do this? Okay. Every person have skills of creativity, imagination, critical thinking. This is what these books us. It isn't just, okay, to kill a mockingbird. Yes. It was about race, about injustice, know, all those things. But at the end of the day. It makes you a critical thinker for the next book that you read. It makes you a critical thinker for the news article that you're reading about something happening current time. I mean, there are so many things that I could say. I'm like I said, when this came up, I was just like, This is it. This is what we're doing on the podcast
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: I'm so super passionate about it.
We'll link those children's books too because it's, it's a ridiculous list. Like Brown Bear, Brown Bear, A Light in the Attic.
Matt: Even, uh, Charlotte's Web, right? They said the reason that they wanted to ban Charlotte's web is because animals shouldn't talk because man is the highest order of, like closest to God or whatever. And
Christina: yeah, yeah,
Matt: what? What? But here's, here's the deal, right? Like every, every single one of these books, every single one on the list went on to become far more popular because they banned it,
Christina: Yes,
Matt: right?
It just, it has the absolute opposite effect is that you want to keep someone's attention away from it. The last thing you should do is be like, yeah, don't look in here.
Christina: Yes,
Matt: Don't look in this drawer,
Christina: yes,
Matt: because everyone's going to want to know what's in the drawer, and they're going to do whatever they can to find out.
So it's just, it's just not, it's not, it's a poor tactic.
Christina: Our old buddy Steve
Matt: Mm
Christina: we should run, not walk
Matt: hmm. Mm hmm.
Christina: out what is in that book and what they don't want us to know.
Matt: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. These lists are, are quite funny, especially quaint, but you see, it's also interesting because like with the list that you share that is sort of set out over time, right? The different top 10 books by time period, like you see the things that were on top of people's minds at the time.
Christina: Yes.
Matt: And you also kind of figure out what side of the aisle they're on as well, by the way,
Christina: Oh, yeah.
Matt: very quickly
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Back when I was a teenager, it was always things for race. Huck Finn. To Kill a Mockingbird. I want to say there's gosh. And I can see the cover. I'm that bookseller. I can see the cover. I can't see the title. can see the author's name. Sherman Alexie is it? Indian in the Cupboard?
Matt: is the book.
Christina: Yeah. Again. I think it was banned for race. , Oh, I can remember reading in freshman was Lord of the Flies.
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, there's, there's just so many books that, again, Lord of the Flies wasn't probably my favorite book to read, I still learned from it. I still understood its overall message and better place than in the classroom to talk about those things.
Thanks.
Matt: That's why you do book reports.
Christina: yeah the thing is, is that if parents don't want you to read something fine, they can that to their own children. They can, take them out of literature class because they're going to be reading to kill a mockingbird. And I don't want my kid reading to kill a mockingbird. Fine, whatever. I'm not going to get into your business, but you don't go banning them
Matt: Correct.
Christina: other kids don't And other families, don't have access to them because the whole point with a lot of the, literature that's in schools, books that are in school libraries. Or taught in classrooms is because not everyone has access books and, um, that's how we
Matt: And everybody should.
Christina: That's
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: like I said, I wouldn't be sitting here had my English teacher not given us the outsiders to read, I actually didn't know. I mean, I knew it was, obviously I knew it was a movie cause I had seen the movie. I didn't know it was a book until she put it in front of us. And I was like, Oh my God, I'm so excited to read this.
Matt: Yeah. I also think it's interesting too, because it goes to a broader theme of a small group of individuals trying to decide for everybody else. What What they should think or what they should read or what they should look at, right? Like, because it is, it's a, it's a small vocal minority that decides they don't want this book around, and, and maybe for their kids.
And they started out with, well, I, I don't want my kids reading this. So I want it out of the school. It's like, well, no, that's not how this works. You're more to your point. You're more than welcome to. Tell your child no until you're 18. You can make your own decision, but you're not gonna read that book.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: But you don't get to tell other people's kids
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: that they can't. It's just not how it works. Mm-Hmm?
Christina: Or even just taking them out of general libraries too, because some of them, become a little bit more than, taking it out of school libraries,
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: I, again, I don't agree with it, but you know, I understand school districts, they don't want to make waves,
Matt: Mm-Hmm.
Christina: take it out of the library, the local library that should be untouched. The librarian should be making that decision. They've all got master's degrees at the very least. You cannot work in a library. Okay. You might be able to volunteer or do other things, but you can't be
Matt: A librarian.
Christina: without those master's programs. So yes.
Matt: So the bottom line message is
Christina: Read banned books.
Matt: read banned books. Like, I love the fact that my local Barnes & Noble has a big table full of banned books and a giant placard that says banned books. Right? Like, go find them. Go read them, just enjoy the hell out of them,
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: you might just learn something, you never know.
Christina: Yeah. And also I think the message to just to touch on it, but it's a topic for another time, but the idea that, fiction is the back door to learning something. So what is something that you've learned as a writer? That you can fuse into your books from experience to teach somebody else. And again, it can be entertaining and that's how they suck you in and that's how you learn something.
Matt: I also think as a writer, don't shy away from the tough subjects,
Christina: Yes.
Matt: like, embrace them, that's life.
Christina: Yeah. Again, broader topic for a different time, but even, even if you have to find sensitivity readers are going to help you with the subject matter that have experience in the subject matter that have experience with, that race. That sexual orientation, that gender, that ness do that. But don't, don't disclude those people from your books because you're afraid to step into it.
Matt: Absolutely. Just
Christina: subject for a different time. We can't go into it now.
Matt: read banned books. Will you
Christina: just read banned
Matt: just read banned books? Awesome. All right. Well, we're going to wrap it up there. Thank you once again for joining me here to discuss this whole banned books issue. Uh, love it. Great topic. I mean, not great in the sense that it happens, but.
Christina: No, but I think it's great to talk about it.
Matt: We got to talk about it. We got to keep it up. We've got to keep it up.
Christina: Yes.
Matt: but thank you for tuning in very much. Appreciate that as well. And please, if you haven't had a chance to do so, you know what? Leave us a rating on Apple podcasts. Overcast, Google podcasts, whatever, wherever you get your podcast, leave us a review.
It really absolutely does help.
Christina: Yes. And then send an email to all of your writer friends and readers and us in your newsletter or whatever.
Matt: There you go. Or just share an episode with somebody who doesn't listen to this, right? Share, share one of our episodes. Your friends will thank you. All right. Well, with that, that's a, uh, that's a, that's a pretty little bow on that one.
Christina: Yes.
Matt: All right. Well, I will talk to you again soon. I'm sure, but thanks for listening.
Bye.
Christina: Bye!