The Trinity Network has its origin at Trinity Church Adelaide, which was established in 1836 . Paul and Sue Harrington share their story of 35 years in ministry with the network, which now consists of 14 churches across Adelaide and South Australia.
Dive into the Harringtons' candid thoughts about juggling ministry life and family, the connection that spouses need, and their reflections on the structures that help and hinder our churches, their leaders and their families from doing life and faith together.
Download my research report and reflections
Watch the video version of this podcast
Complete a Clergy Wellbeing Quiz here
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and do not represent the stance of any institution. The research discussed is based on an assignment completed for my Masters in Leadership and has not undergone peer review. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
The Trinity Network has its origin at Trinity Church Adelaide, which was established in 1836 . Paul and Sue Harrington share their story of 35 years in ministry with the network, which now consists of 14 churches across Adelaide and South Australia.
Dive into the Harringtons' candid thoughts about juggling ministry life and family, the connection that spouses need, and their reflections on the structures that help and hinder our churches, their leaders and their families from doing life and faith together.
Download my research report and reflections
Watch the video version of this podcast
Complete a Clergy Wellbeing Quiz here
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and do not represent the stance of any institution. The research discussed is based on an assignment completed for my Masters in Leadership and has not undergone peer review. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
Hey, it's Valerie Ling. I'm a clinical psychologist and I'm your host for the clergy well-being Down Under podcast. I'm looking forward to interviewing an expert today to take you through my findings from my research where I asked 200 pastors down under how they were doing. Don't forget to subscribe, like and share. Buckle up and here we go. Greetings everybody to yet another episode of our clergy well-being Down Under podcast. I have got Paul and Sue Harrington with me on this episode. Hello, paul and Sue, good day, hi, it's great to be with you, valerie.
Valerie Ling:Do you know, I haven't come up on my memories. That is almost one year since I went to visit you in Adelaide.
Paul Harrington:Now I was only having a visit and do a few sessions for us over here.
Sue Harrington:Yeah, so yeah, and it's been great getting to know you.
Valerie Ling:So I'd love for you to introduce yourselves really a bit about your story of ministry and where you are now and what you're doing.
Paul Harrington:Sure.
Sue Harrington:Okay, well, I became a Christian a week before I started university. I'd grown up in a sort of God fearing family, but it was really God helps them, it was themselves sort of thing. But I had a few friends and a teacher, actually that that were different. So I became a Christian by God's kindness and then, as I said, never recovered and just seeing His kindness through every stage of my life. So we have three adult children, eight grandchildren, and just really have just loved our time in ministry. We both legal backgrounds, practice law a bit. I've done a bit on the side right the way through basically, but mostly we've had our focus on ministry things and just so thankful and grateful to have had that privilege of being able to do that for the last A trinity. Yeah, it's about 35 years yeah a trinity.
Sue Harrington:So that's where we went when we first became Christians, or very, very soon after. And so we tell them if we're no good at your own fault, because we're productive with the ministry there.
Paul Harrington:My story is very much the same. We're actually going out. Before others were Christians, so we kind of Christian. Just before going to uni I was already at uni and then about three or four months later, she took me for a walk around Adelaide University. It was on about our second circuit that she burst into tears on my shoulder and said God wanted her to break up with me. Now, at that point I didn't think God existed so I thought that was a bit bizarre. But what it did was it triggered me to read the Bible with a friend that I knew had become a Christian at uni.
Paul Harrington:Over a period of months I went from thinking Jesus Easter Bunny Tooth Fairy to real person, and then the gap was so. So if he's real, what difference does it make? You know, sort of historical Jesus to personal Lord was really the jump point, became a Christian, and soon I didn't go out for about six months after that. We thought, at least I thought smart for me to try and work out which one was up as a Christian before, you know, launching back into a relationship. So we mutually thought that was smart. And then, yeah, and so going to Trinity, was I become a Christian? Effectively, on campus. There were friends at uni who said said now, you're a Christian, you ought to go to church. And I thought, well, it sounds reasonable, you know, and so they took, took me down to Trinity. That was 1978. And that's when we first started going to Trinity, and both of us have just been hanging around ever since.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, that was about the Trinity network.
Paul Harrington:Sure. So when I joined the Trinity staff team, it was one church in the city, a church that had a long evangelical tradition here in Appalachia, anglican but in a non evangelical diocese, and so a larger city church, about 800 people. And I joined as the look after Sunday school, high school and the young adults group really. So I did that for about five years, although the role changed a bit over that time. Then the director left and became a bishop in Sydney and I was asked to become the director at that point that was 1993. So at that stage, one church then, because we're essentially full on that site.
Paul Harrington:The question we're asking was how do we keep reaching unbelievers for Jesus? And one possibility was building a bigger building, so I could, you know, make more people because we'd reach capacity. Or the second was to think about church planting, and the planting idea appealed to us because it felt like we could keep replicating communities, reaching out to others around Adelaide. So we planted our first church in 2001 from the city and we're now 14 churches across sort of Adelaide and wider South Australia with a desire just to keep planting churches and what we're doing is partnering together to try and reach our city and state with the gospel. That's where we're coming from.
Sue Harrington:And I remember the very first, the first church, and the commissioning, or the kickoff, you know, the launch Sunday, and Paul said don't think you've made it. This is, by God's kindness, we're here, but I'm praying now for the church that you will plant and we've seen that happen and that's what keeps happening, in God's kindness.
Paul Harrington:So the church in 2001, planted a church in 2010 and further away from them, and then that church in 2010,. There was planted in 2010, planted a church further away in 2015. So we've always wanted to be a network where we planted churches or planted churches, or planted churches, and we're seeing that happen. There's been five churches planted from the larger city church and then the rest of the churches have been planted from the daughter churches or granddaughter churches.
Valerie Ling:So almost 40 years as part of Trinity Network, starting from being converted all the way to now leadership. What have you seen? One of the well we met because I was at reach I think it was reach we did something together and then I came to talk to your leadership team about my observations about burnout, because your network is looking to see how you can create structures or build things around your ministry teams In the time that you've been in ministry and in leadership. What works well, how do we? What have you seen as being some of the ingredients for those of us in ministry to thrive?
Sue Harrington:I guess we had the privilege of being mentored by people at an early stage. So Robert and Margaret Forsythe would often have us in their home, and then Reg and Dorothy Piper, when we were on staff team, were very kind to us, having you know, just sort of taking us by the hand. So there is that sort of culture that even before you know we were on the staff team that we were the beneficiaries of, and also I respect for the leaders and a mutual love and care. Paul often tells the staff when they come to Trinity that you will be given respect. You can lose it, but there is that automatic respect for the role and the, and I think that that becomes a mutual thing.
Paul Harrington:I think Sue's right. We were serving in ministry and we've been here for a number of decades but we stand on the shoulders of others who laid really good platforms. So I remember Reg Piper. He brought me onto the staff team. We shared a back fence. So often we'd walk in about half hour walk into the Trinity City Church and I'd pick his brain and he would sort me out on things and there was a real fatherly relationship, I think, where he clearly wanted me to flourish as a person in ministry.
Paul Harrington:So we don't because we're first generation believers. We were. We felt like we'd been making everything up as we go along and the main way we've done that, I think, is by looking at people in the next day John from us and trying to learn from them. So learning from the Piper's, for example, sharing a fence with them, how they thought about their marriage, how they thought about opening their home, how they thought about their race in their children. We were able to learn a lot and observe and just seeing.
Paul Harrington:I think Reg Piper was a leader who I never got the sense that his role as the senior leader of the church had anything to do with his own ego. So he always had that clear intention of honouring God, building up other people around him, and I think that modelling was very key for us as we move forward. Not just Reg. We had excellent trustees and wardens and elder type people who were part of that culture. So it's been a privilege to serve in a church in our network where the focus has been very clearly established as we want to glorify God, preach the gospel, see people become Christians and not get too fussed about stuff that doesn't matter and keep doing that. So those sort of backgrounds have been really important for us, I think.
Sue Harrington:Yeah, yeah, and all of life, oh sorry, just yeah, all of life too. So absolutely key ministry, but also character and then why you do certain things. So just sort of talking it through and that freedom really to talk it through, and then honesty, yeah.
Valerie Ling:And how are some of the ways you might have infused your experiences into the Trinity network structures side of mentoring and being able to pass on wisdom? How's that work?
Paul Harrington:Yeah, I think that I want to say that Sue has been really critical in helping in shaping actually the whole network culture. Just in thinking through how we we functioned as a family of leaders Family needs to be used a bit loosely, but that collegial family warmth and relating together as we share life and ministry together I think particularly among staff and the key elders, the trustees and I think that Sue's had a really critical Be worthwhile. Talking about the way you've gone about, thinking about why yeah, yes, just that it is.
Sue Harrington:It's a team thing that we, that we do, and that that's important. We're all heading in the same direction. Where the wise are so different the moment there's 28 past as well. So the important thing is we keep saying, you know, being the best you can be and with the gifts God's given you, the opportunities to stage of life, and there's so many differences, but just that sense of being sold out for Jesus, being really keen to serve God's people, to build up your spouse as well in that and to minister within your own family setting.
Sue Harrington:But that openness, one of the things we do is try and over the years initially it was just a small group of pastors, wives, and we'd meet once a fortnight and we'd pray and brainstorm things. Or if someone was giving a talk, then you know, use us as the testing. Or if there was an issue, we talk through different things, and that was nice to have that confidential sort of supportive environment, the. As we've grown bigger, we've had to change that a little bit and so now there's four different groups that meet, but once a year, for example, we all go away for a few days and we have a somewhere between a it's not an amp and it's not a retreat and it's not a conference, but somewhere in the middle of that. And the trustees have so kindly underwritten that because they see the value of supporting households and so we go away, we have some input, we have some fun time together, we pray together, and so that's a good building time.
Sue Harrington:We really see the importance of the family. So we want all the kids of the staff to feel like isn't it wonderful that we're involved in that? You know that our dads are involved in Trinity Ministry, or our, or the rest of the family, or our mums we've got women on the team as well, but we're so we want them to feel that they're. It's a privilege and a joy. And so we do try and do things like it. For Christmas, they get a helium balloon with it, you know, stocking attached or something you know, and just try. And when they turn, when they're doing the year 12, they get a year 12 survival packs. So just different things. Because the ministry, kids yeah, the ministry.
Paul Harrington:The ministry team. So who is that Me?
Sue Harrington:So it's just kind of evolved, but we used to have this massive end of year thing at our house. That was sort of like a carnival with all the stuff. But now we've got actually too big but we do different things, like we have a high teeth, the stuff wise in the year and kick off things and you know, get, maybe get a speaker across or you know so different things to try and say, look, it matters, we want to support each other. We want to, you know, do the best job we can with, which will vary what, what you know exactly how it will look in every household but just supporting, encourage each other.
Valerie Ling:So, considering both of you are first generation Christians, how did you come up with all these ideas? What motivated that?
Paul Harrington:Interesting really, because Sue, even our first generation believer her family was incredibly hospitable and culture of hospitality and open it, which wasn't my family background for a range of different reasons, but for Sue it was and I think that that ensues very warm and relational. So that's I'm not saying I'm unrelational, but you know, sue's very relational. I think that's infused a lot of that household culture. That's, and I think we've just we just kept making up as we went along trying to think through how do we keep growing a connected staff, leadership team network of churches, all with clear focus and goals, but enjoying the benefit of being part of a Christian community on the way through in different levels?
Valerie Ling:So I'm curious, with regards to the I love that you've mentioned the kids with regards to the wives and the kids and the families in ministry, what would you say have been the key ingredients over the years that's helped that sense of belonging and connectedness to survive, even though you've grown much bigger?
Paul Harrington:No. So I think as we when we started off on the team and as we kept going through different stages, it's been interesting to see that a lot of the and this is the advantage of being sort of a multi staff team there are a lot of kids actually growing up together and those kids had peer relationships, I think, and family relationships. We didn't live in each other's pockets because we didn't have time, but nonetheless the kids came through Sunday school and high school groups and young adult groups together and I think that sense of being a part of those peer connected groups was really important for them. And I think in our own family Sue worked very hard for our kids to understand the privileges of being in the vocational ministry space. So if I came during the day to one of the kids' sports days, sue would make it a point of saying you know, dad can do this because he's in ministry and he has flexibility to come during the day. Lots of fathers can't do that.
Paul Harrington:Sue would often pick up on a number of those things the fact that there are lots of people in our churches praying for our family and our kids quite extraordinary that they've had that. Sometimes that attention can be hard but generally it's. Yeah, we were in a church community where they wanted our kids to do well and they loved them and cared for them and I think our kids grew up with that sense of the value of being a part of the church and a part of ministry family. So I think our kids have grown up at different stages. They probably had struggles with it but at this stage they'd all say it was a wonderful thing to grow up in a ministry family. Now that's God's kindness. But you know, we're very thankful for that. We were always wanting and praying that that would be the case and I think that's it. A lot of that, I think, was shaped by Sue's very deliberate ministry thinking, parenting, you know, going through.
Sue Harrington:And both of us really just that sense of seeing how, what you're saying, what you don't say to. So we were careful what we said around the children when there were issues, because just age appropriate, so we didn't want them to have a weight beyond their years. Yes, I think that. I think that's been important. It really hasn't been.
Paul Harrington:Being wise about what we drew them into in terms of awareness of what was going on, because there'll always be issues or relationships that come up and the kids didn't need to know. But we had this spot in our front veranda in our house which was the sort of parent's zone. So we go out there for a drink, a cup of coffee or whatever at the end of the day and the kids were sort of barred from going out there and that was our debrief time on a whole lot of things which we sought through, which I think has been really important for us on the way through, to keep processing stuff together, and normally we would do that at least daily really, as we've been along, but that imparts the shape of our relationship as well.
Sue Harrington:Yeah, and I think that's right because we can process together. We're not using the kids to process and I guess that's just encouraging in that way With the just as far as a wider network we both really want to try and make a point of particularly if my child of one of the staff is struggling, so sometimes struggling one way or another, either in their faith or behaviour or whatever. But we want to know we make a real effort, that they know they are special, they are loved. So it's not performance based those kids. We really just want them not to feel the pressure of having to be perfect and they are going to go through. Some kids are going to go through times where they struggle and that that's part of hopefully them growing.
Valerie Ling:That sounds to me like at a network level, you've been able to foster a sense of belonging that the leadership tier, the ministers, spouses and kids really have a sense of a belonging together through whatever rhythms and patterns that you have. So through the year you have retreats, you have camps, you have things specifically for the ministry families. Is that what I'm hearing?
Sue Harrington:The retreat one was for the wives. Yeah, you know that growing a wife is for the wives. I think each of the it's a little bit different now that we're bigger and things happen more in the local church, but I think that has been replicated.
Paul Harrington:Yeah.
Paul Harrington:So at this stage, with 14 churches, we're thinking that the relational spans to do it all in one place are probably too great and we'd be finding ourselves spending the whole time just with each other in order to do that.
Paul Harrington:So when we get everyone together I think when you were with us last year we had a big staff house dinner and I must admit, when I get together with that group I think I'd love to go away and plant a church with these guys.
Paul Harrington:Now, probably that isn't true because there'd be too many cheese and non-Affinians, but nonetheless it's wonderful to share life with those people. But because of the size, what we've tried to do is to develop that same level of family connection at the regional level, and part of our task, I think, and our task at our stage of ministry, is to invest a little more deliberately in some people who will head up those regional networks to help us retain the relational sense of belonging in the midst of a wider sense of wanting to reach our city and state with the gospel. So just trying to but that's more a structural approach as we move forward and trying to think what's smart, because at the end of the day, we all have varying and limited relational capacities, and so you need to get that balance between the people you work most closely with and the wider church family that you're ministering alongside as well.
Valerie Ling:This is the midpoint break for the podcast. If you want to put a pause and walk away and come back with it, make sure you do check out the description for all the various downloads that we have for you, including my full report, research and reflections. You might also want to remember to like, share and subscribe. So stop now or keep going. I'm going to spend some time with you in your home. I know that both of you talk quite a lot about how to figure out structures, how to figure out what is your latest thinking about planting 14 churches, scale large populations now within your church, as well as managing the resourcing, the governance and the connections that you all have with one another. What's the latest?
Paul Harrington:Yeah, so the few things.
Paul Harrington:So we'll jump in on this as well but at the leadership level, I think that, and grouping of people into the regional areas, with focus on those regions together, while still being part of an overall network, is where we're heading at this point in time. What we want to do is make sure we don't set up a structure that limits our ability to reach more people with the gospel. So sometimes organizational structures put in artificial glass ceilings and you bounce off them for no other reason except you haven't thought your way through them. And one of the potential glass ceilings for our network is Suanola, that is, if everything has to come back through us, if we're the sort of mum and dad of the network and all the kids can only relate to each other like us, that's a glass ceiling. So the ability to divest into other key leaders and organizational groups that help us do the same thing, but with the same values, is really important. So that's what we're thinking.
Paul Harrington:So if you said to me what would I like to spend, say, 10 years time, I'd be thinking probably double the number of churches that we had, maybe 30 churches.
Paul Harrington:That will require rethinking some of our core support structures. Our goal is for churches to be really the healthy core face of what we do, and so we're happy to resource that, essentially the things that will free up those churches to do very healthy ministry. So that involves things like finance, support, safe ministry, arrangements that are essentially supported and enabled yeah, that sort of structural stuff that actually helps churches function well. And then thinking through how our churches keep collaborating in a wider sense, partnering together with that wider concern for the gospel, and I think we'll always be trying to work that out. I don't think we'll ever arrive at a solution, and I think every stage of growth will present new challenges and opportunities that you need to grapple with in order to be healthy. Moving forward so that's some of what we're thinking through, I think. The leadership pipeline, how we grow deep disciples who step into leadership but I think that's a challenge for us moving forward, yeah, and one we need to pay attention to.
Sue Harrington:Yeah your thoughts. Yeah, well, I think it is that sense of always changing to meet the next lot of challenges and to sustain sustainability but also for care and health as well, but effectiveness as well. So just that. I remember one an old friend of Paul said are you still Trinity?
Sue Harrington:It wasn't originally that I thought, yeah, but his job has changed every year. You know that sense of you know needing to keep do the next thing, which has kept you interested as well. But that sense of and I think our structures have changed, so they just keep adapting when we need it. Once, the other week, we had a the Northern region had a celebration where they all got together and it was very it's feasible for the Northern region all to get together. The place was packed and everybody. You know it was a celebration and they launched you know questions to ask you on Christian friends and then they're going to all have a joint sermon series. That are some of these answers and it was a real sense of celebration. And then the churches got back together where they're all planted off each other sort of thing from each other. So I think that idea of well, that that is workable. I'd love to see everyone all together in a higher, you know.
Sue Harrington:And eventually said or whatever that which would be great, a great celebration, but actually probably not nearly as effective as that. You know that region. Because they've got the relational links, they'll have the encouragement and then they can do something together. The youth too, you know trying to, there's been. You know youth groups. Critical mass is important for youth and so you know there's some area youth working together, and then you know what is up on some term now that every all the youth in the network get together. So it's not just you know what's happening in my little church. There's a bigger thing happening and there's other Christians outside. You know mum and dad's church.
Valerie Ling:But so much activity and being intentional to keep the network functioning and connected, what do you use? On the burnout piece, so you know my survey predominantly senior ministers. You know a large percentage of them burning out, really struggling to keep up with a lot of the demands that come with the role. How does that fit in your network, do you think? What do you see?
Paul Harrington:Yep, so I think we're well. I think we're like most churches, networks. It's an issue that is real for us and part of it is, I think, that we we generally have people on our staff teams who are very self motivated, so they're not natural boundary setters for themselves, because they love to see, you know, people's moving forward for the glory of God. So I think that that's one of the things we've become more aware of in recent years. That, over the period, highlighted some of that for us, like it did for lots of people. We were seeing more fraying occur, you know, in terms of how people were going and their well being.
Paul Harrington:So that's, I think, one of the areas that we've become more alert to sooner, but also the whole network, our board, in thinking through what's going on, and so, for example, when you were across I can't remember it was 12 months ago when we got together with the leaders, they really were concerned to proactively think through how do we help our staff in particular, thinking that they will then roll down the churches thinking how do we help our staff in that well being space moving forward? What are the things we can do overall, as a network, to make that more likely? How do we keep surveying patterns of our staff, their households? Hearing from you know whole households like wives and children, not just staff members or husbands of wives who are working with us or whatever but thinking through how we take a bit of a pulse check on that.
Paul Harrington:I think one of the things I've become more aware of as time has gone on is the critical nature of helping our staff to be self aware and I yeah, if you'd asked me when I was recruiting 30 years ago, yeah, my top tips for recruiting it wouldn't have included self awareness.
Paul Harrington:But now I say to myself and I say to people I think the first thing I'm looking for when I'm recruiting is someone who has good self awareness, moving forward. Because if they understand themselves and they're secure in their relationship with God and where God has made them, then they're going to be much more comfortable with working at how they live in that space and how they work collaboratively with others, given their strengths and otherwise. So that's been helpful for me. I have some strengths in ministry but I have gaps and being aware of my gaps helps me work out the implications for other people around me. It also helps me partner with other people who complement me and I complement them as we move forward together. And I think that that, if it doesn't mean you don't keep growing and developing, but it's a much healthier space to be moving forward and I think that self understanding, awareness, not being preoccupied with self, but enough awareness there really does help you flourish in the space when you're in ministry, I think.
Sue Harrington:And I think that's one of the reasons why, if you looked across the leaders at Trinity, we don't just have one type of. You know, often the church planter is the, you know, perhaps one end of the extreme extrovert come entrepreneur. But partly because we've got the support structure behind it, you know they don't have to be able to do budgets and you know whatever. In quite the same way, but the who does the budget suit the? Well, I mean, the church does some, but there's a lot central.
Sue Harrington:A lot of the, a lot of the admin is done centrally. I mean the leadership teams put forward budgets, but the bookkeeping and stuff is done centrally. So there's, you know, don't have to be quite as much of a jack of all trades as any other, I interrupt you. Yeah, but the but what it means is, as long as people realize look, I'm not as strong on this, but they have other people on their launch team that might be strong on that then then it doesn't matter if they're not, if they're not, you know, if they don't have all the, all the areas of expertise and a minister's never expected really to have all the areas of expertise, but they do have a leadership responsibility to make sure certain things are covered. So it's that, that wisdom. I think that that's really important.
Valerie Ling:So I must remember to come back to the network and how it's structured. But before that, how does that link the self awareness link to what you were saying? 12 months ago you were, you know, having a look at, you know what was happening in the pandemic and burnout and keeping a tab on whole households well, well being, and the awareness fit into that. So, on the one hand, trinity network is being proactive. What is it that you're seeing, then, in leaders that matches onto that?
Paul Harrington:Yeah, so I think the when they were in the midst of the pandemic, the observation I was making was that the reaction of different staff members to an increased stress and management issue and the way they reacted to it was very, very different. I had some staff and it looked to me like if every day they woke up a pandemic. I was saying I was born for a day like this. You know, there was just that sense of the challenge and the opportunity. There were, you know, new spaces and other people. They woke up thinking when will the pandemic end? You know, because I'm going to get back to doing what I normally do, and that seemed to me is your spectrum of personality types. Now, the risk with the personality type was I was born for a day such as this. They then tended to overreven the space. How do I adapt? How do I do more? We'll just start more services, because we can't. We'll just run six services, not two.
Paul Harrington:It'll be fine, you know working that way and not counting some of the cost of that. Other people were saying, well, we can't do what we were doing, so we won't do anything. You know that sort of, and it wasn't quite like that, but there was a tendency that well, it's coping mechanism.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, exactly, it's the same as the phase of coping.
Paul Harrington:Yeah. So I think in part it was trying to walk with different leaders through that space. And so you know, like at a network level, what I kept saying to the pastors was don't bother reading the latest mandates that the government puts out. Don't try and work at the wrinkle space for doing things At the central level. We will do that work for you, but you know what's going on in. You know hopefully in good time for you to make adjustments, but there's no need for us all to be experts on the legislation and we'll provide that and we'll help you move forward.
Paul Harrington:And we try to give some frameworks for people to work within.
Paul Harrington:That we thought were going to be the healthy spaces for people to work in, but also enabling each person to understand and monitor, given their personality, how they were dealing with the situation, how their households were getting in the space. You know all those sorts of things. So I think that it's in those sort of spaces and I think one of the things I'm often doing with staff is to in the midst normally it's in the midst of challenge to try and think through why they're finding a situation challenging and to then rework themselves in that space knowing that they've got support. So I think in my approach with leaders, what I've kept trying to say is under God, you are more important than what you do and therefore let's focus on you in this space. Like I'm really keen for our staff to serve well and faithfully, but I want them to understand how I'll do that in a rich way, moving forward, not in a way that just produces a lot. I think that's the sort of thing we're trying to do.
Sue Harrington:Yeah, looking at the long term. So there have been times where different staff has struggled and part of it is saying, look, it's okay to struggle sometimes, but in life we will all have times where we really struggle. And I mean when you look back and think that's where I really grew so often too, but that it's okay sometimes not to be coping and that if that's the case, they need to be feel free and safe to say that and then make adjustments and you'll often work with them and in fact, sometimes Paul, frustrate staff by saying no, no, no, we're actually you're not going to come back quite yet on full time. You know that actually you need, you know we've got somebody in for the next however long to, and just kind of, because sometimes we're on worst enemies and you have to be a bit careful not to be patronizing.
Sue Harrington:But there is a sense of sometimes you're in a state where you don't quite know what is going to be helpful for the long term. So getting the supports around, graduating back into, you know, full capacity, that sense of sticking with people for the long term, and that over a not you know we have many staff that have been here for a long time, that's over a 10 year period, 1520 years. You will have a downtime or two, you know, and you're going to have crises in the family. You're going to have this nasty conflict that is going to push your buttons, and then just try to work out. Well, how do you safely navigate that for long term ministry, even if this year might be not the best?
Paul Harrington:year.
Paul Harrington:So you know, it was a few weeks ago. I was talking to someone who just talked to me about the fact they felt like they were hitting a bit of a wall and and I just tried to talk them through the process for moving back to a much healthier space and I said to them look, I'm really this is a person that's say 40-ish. I said what I'm really keen is that when you get to 70 years of age, you're saying, oh, so it's been wonderful to be in full-time jobs for work this whole period. So that's my goal. You know we need to do the things now that help you have that sort of experience moving forward and to make sure we don't have a very short-term lens that we read this through. So put in place the sort of longer-term strategies for actually being in that sort of spot, because you know like for us we're getting towards the end of our formal ministry sort of years, but we've loved being in ministry and we continue to enjoy it and get excited by it. Well, I want that for everybody moving forward.
Paul Harrington:So how do we help people do that, I think, is one of our goals.
Valerie Ling:So you have a board, and then what comes after that?
Paul Harrington:So the network has a board that has oversight, really the carriage, of where we're going as a network of churches, a partnership of churches, so they're trying to establish some of the framework things that help the churches flourish From there.
Paul Harrington:In many ways there's a delegated responsibility for me thinking through the implications of that on the ground and I work with now this is fairly recent but some what I've called lead pastors who have regional responsibilities. So we've got the churches split in, say, four regions at this point and the idea is those lead pastors work closely. The lead pastors are senior pastors of churches but they work with other senior pastors as a cluster moving forward. I tend to work with the lead pastors, although I touch base with other senior pastors. Each of our churches has a leadership team. So you know a group that have the carriage of thinking through health at the local church level and the senior pastors with, say, four to five other people in that leadership team thinking through those issues. So it goes board almost an executive group for the network, lead pastors and 14 churches with senior pastors and leadership teams. That's the sort of the tiered sort of structure at this point.
Valerie Ling:So that switch modes a little bit when you think about Sue Wives. Often think the podcast is so heavily geared to what's families, mainly because that's what the survey participants said and the pool so will stick within that. But the top reasons for clergy thinking about leaving the ministry was the impact on family and loneliness, the third one being the work stress. You know what we hear in our clinical work is when husbands are out many, many evenings. You know two, three, sometimes four evenings a week. Families with young children, mums coping then with a lot of the caregiving and just the stress of everyday life, school and, you know, special needs, diets that kids have. How does one thrive as a family? You know? I think what have you seen really helps and work at that practical level.
Sue Harrington:I think it needs to be something that the husband and wife and the whole church really but work out together, because there can be and it has to be, a genuine seeking to honour God together and to raise your family together and to minister together, however form that might take. But I think sometimes where it goes awry, if you like, is where it can be a guide for selfishness. So the husband might be being selfish and so it's all about me because it's all about ministry, but really it's all about me. So the wife is then kind of a seen as a resource or a, and the kids too, to sort of build up the husband in an unhealthy, ungodly kind of way. And you know, I've got to fill this gap because otherwise my husband won't succeed, sort of thing. So try to get out of that sort of thinking and thinking that we really want to all serve God well, together, we're in it together, just a slightly different way of thinking and a husband that is genuinely servant hearted within the family setting, but not. But then you can go the other way, of course, and you forget the big vision, which is that all together, we want to see God's, we want to be serving God, we want to keep the big goal in mind and I think I think part of it is getting the heart the heart right, the heart of the wife right, the heart of the husband right, the teamwork right. So I think that that makes for a healthy and being honest. So we all do only have you know, 24 hours in a day, seven days in a week.
Sue Harrington:So you know, paul and I would take stock, for example, each year Okay, what is working, what is it? So, for example, I do. I've run a business on the side risk management for lawyers and doctors. You know, and that's kind of helped, helped me. You know, when the kids were little, when they were young, when they were at school, that I started doing that and you know day a week or a couple of days a week and it worked for me. But each year we would honestly say what's working, what isn't working, and be prepared to make adjustments, both of us in different things. We'd think through ministry things, what's feasible, what isn't feasible, and we would change at different points. So I've got to prepare the good works God's prepared, do the good works God's prepared beforehand for us to work in.
Sue Harrington:I was thinking, if it's not feasible, like we had Paul's mum stay with us with dementia for about six months. Well, it wasn't feasible to have people in the home. She'd at much at that point she'd be scared. So we had to say that's not the good work that God has for us at this moment and so we'd adjust it.
Sue Harrington:When the kids were little, they loved having the friends around. You know that's when they got Tim Tams, you know. So we'd make all the special treats around, all the church stuff. But then there was other periods where you know, oh, not another night. So then we would readjust. So I think, remembering that there's huge flexibility in how you do it, so being creative, getting your heart right first, but then realising how that works out in practice, will change from periods and stages of life, from circumstances, from you know where you're up to and just using that to meet your big goals and glorify God and see people come into the kingdom and people grow, but doing that within the an honest capacity of where you're at and where you're at as a household.
Paul Harrington:We were always keen for our kids. You know our prayer was that our kids would grow up always knowing the love and mercy and grace of God. We wanted that to be the case Now. We didn't want our household just to be kids centric but nonetheless that was a good desire that we had that our kids would keep experiencing, in a ministry family sort of setting, that growth of knowledge, so that they'd never feel like they'd dipped out because they're in a ministry family, and that our hearts desire was that always know that to be the case. So we never guarantee our kids salvation only God can save people. But I think that's a good goal to have an administrative household that kids flourish as believers, you know, because they're growing up in a believing household, moving forward and setting a pattern for that I think.
Sue Harrington:Yeah, couple of other things. One thing that I've tried to keep in mind and tried to keep encouraging the wife's wives and as we talk with ministry households, not every struggle is because you're in ministry. Because you know, I'm thinking, I grew up in a family. Dad was busy all the time. You know we had lots of different stresses and strains in life and financial things and you know lots of people around us are struggling to in. Just, you know we're in a broken world.
Sue Harrington:So not allocating everything because you're in ministry I think is helpful. So being realistic, but also being realistic that there are some things because you're in ministry and so that you've sort of chosen to do, but that might mean you doesn't mean you don't grieve the difficulties and then so just being leadership, I remember kind of almost laughing at myself at points where I thought I thought they were my friend but really they were thinking of me just as a leader. You know somebody had a party and they didn't invite me to it. You know, and I think you know clearly, you know a few things like that along the way and we all get that and you think, oh, it's probably a bit pathetic, but you actually do feel a bit sad, you think. Oh, I thought it was deeper than that and it's probably just part of that learning as a thing of a job, yeah, yeah it can be a sense of isolation that you're always sort of grappling with.
Sue Harrington:Yeah, and so I've talked to the wise about that as well, and they share it they all know and by I don't know, but you know just that sense of that.
Sue Harrington:There is a difference. Sometimes for some people they can't seem to quite get over the fact that you're the minister's wife and that's you know. So then you have to work out. Well then, how do you have supports and encouragement? So, for instance, both of us have had groups for decades. We've gone to have a little prayer group with four lovely, your three, three, there's four of us that have met for decades, you know, since the kids, and even this morning there was WhatsApp groups going around, messages going around for someone who's got to make a big decision. So there's that support and long term encouragement where we're all just friends, we're not anybody's anything, and you've had a similar sort of yeah.
Paul Harrington:I've been part of a men's breakfast group with about six other men, probably now for 25 years or so, fairly regular group. They're all 10 years older than me, so I see them, you know, dealing with issues 10 years in front of me and but also because they're older, they have less sense of me being in good way, me being a pastor. They still said that way and they have great respect, but nonetheless they're at a different sort of point.
Sue Harrington:Yeah, yeah, sorry, there was just one more thing on the suffering of family.
Sue Harrington:I don't want to think. I think we have to be careful is suffering isn't always bad, and so sometimes our families will suffer. But as long as where it's handled well, that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world. So you don't want trauma because you've got trauma. Just deal with the one trauma. So you're having a mindset that that sometimes suffering is OK and it's well. You know God's, we're safe in it and we've got to work through it and it's not pleasant and it may not be fair, but that it's not necessarily the worst thing that's happened, if you like.
Valerie Ling:So I think, having visited you both, you're flexible, you have a great friendship with one another. The Paul and Sue friendship is very evident. You're fun, you have fun with one another.
Sue Harrington:And really fun is really important in the industry. That well, for us it is just that Out of the intensity, of it all.
Paul Harrington:So since the fun police, she's in charge of.
Valerie Ling:I think you have a deep sense of fellowship. So it probably is the last thing I just wanted to ask you. With the conflict that was being reported in my survey. I'm sure you have conflict within your churches and your network as well, but I'm wondering, you know, what do you think is happening? Why do we have these levels of, you know, sort of almost war, like conflict with one another, and what helps with that? What do you think? It's a big question.
Sue Harrington:I know one of the things that helps, one of the things that Paul does and has consistently had this drumbeat is we're not going to sweat the small things, we're not going to fight about things that aren't central or very important. So you know, drumbeat in sermons, drumbeat in conversations you pull, meet with leadership groups and with the pastors, yeah, so.
Paul Harrington:I think, just trying to say often in church circles people get upset about not significant things and you do want to listen to those, but not too much. Yeah, that is, you want to keep saying, well, we're on about of these big things and these other things we won't be on about. So that's a culture setting thing from that point of view, I think, a straightforwardness and relationships with people. If there are issues, we'll talk about them. So I, one of my staff, the other day, said to me he said I was with a group of senior pastors and I was grumbling about you to them over something.
Paul Harrington:This is one of my senior pastors and he said I just want to apologize, it wasn't appropriate, but from my point of view, I wanted to know why he was grumbling. That is the content of that, because my job is not to frustrate you. Yeah, my job is trying to encourage you in ministry. And he might have been grumbling because I was, as I thought it turned out, probably he, I was taking the task over something that he needed to. But I actually want to hear because I know that I've done the best. So creating that culture of openness and, I think, keeping short memories. So Sue will sometimes say I remember we had this issue with someone like that, you know, some time ago, and I'll genuinely not be able to remember it and perhaps I'll just blank out all the nasty things. But you know, I think just take over and try not to ruminate on things.
Valerie Ling:Forgetfulness is another F and feedback. So I normally finish up by asking three questions. If there was a ministry leader and let's go with household, because I love that we've been able to talk about households If there was a ministry family listening to our conversation today, what's one thing you'd like them to walk away to think about or to do?
Paul Harrington:So I think what I love ministry families and I don't say this lightly because I know that many people are going through significant struggles, but it's almost remembering the joy and privilege of being in a ministry family and to remember the grace and mercy that you've been shown, the fact that you've been able to be so part that, even if it's even if they're going through a difficult time right now, those things are still true and I think just constantly remembering that sense of it's always a privilege to be in the family of God, then I think, for those who are set aside for leadership among God's people, it's a double privilege, but no, it's an easy one but still a privilege, I think.
Sue Harrington:And centred on the very core thing that God is doing in all the universe. So keeping that bigger vision that this is for eternity, that God is doing and we have the privilege of being part of that, yeah.
Paul Harrington:And then a practical thing for families I would think is there is a risk of isolation, that is, even within couples. You can spend a lot of time rolling something around together and taking time to sit down with some other people and to talk about it and share that issue or difficulty that's going on. It may not have happened but it will sure help with a lot, I think, in terms of moving forward, to know there's not that disconnect and you don't have to deal with an isolation. And sometimes there can be wrong reasons for keeping isolated. It can be a pride or a fear attached to it, but nonetheless, I think, sitting down with trusted people to bounce stuff around is enormously helpful, and particularly other people that understand the situation.
Sue Harrington:There is a bit nothing new under the sun when it comes to some of the difficulties in leadership.
Valerie Ling:And if there was a church listening in? So some people have got Bible studies subscribed to the podcast or care committees subscribed. What's one thing you'd love for them to think about or do in terms of understanding how we do ministry together?
Sue Harrington:I think genuinely loving your pastor and their whole family I think that's one of the joys that we've had is feeling genuinely loved and cared for and almost embarrassed at points by the level of love and care. I think everybody's praying for us. This person's got the same sort of issue, but it actually does help you. It's like generosity breeds generosity, that sense of kindness and grace. Going backwards and forwards, so genuinely loving and working out what is genuinely loving for this pastor's family, which might be different to somebody else, so getting to know them, working out what is genuinely loving and helpful to help them serve you and God best. Yeah.
Paul Harrington:So I think the Sue mentioned earlier, when we have staff join our network, I do say to them you'll be given respect by your congregation. That will be a given for you. Not always the case. I don't think, as I talk to people, but you can lose that, you can reinforce that, but you'll be given it. I think I'd like to say to church leadership groups, congregations go out of your way to respect and honor your leaders. In other words, treat them in the way you want them to operate, as honorable people of integrity and people that are trusted, because if you treat them that way, you'll bring out the best in them, so that culture of not pastors aren't to be pedestal, but that respect and honor and love I think is really critical.
Sue Harrington:Which is be, remandated God's ways of work.
Valerie Ling:And finally, what and I know you will say that you're not perfect in the way that you've structured your network. You're still working it out. But if there are other denominations or other networks trying to figure out, okay, how do we help our ministry families in a post-pandemic business, burnt out, exhausted way? What's one thing you'd like them to think or do?
Paul Harrington:I'm jumping. I think, the risk with and we experience as a network as we grow, the easy thing to do is to organize, develop policy and structure and become a little mechanical about the way we facilitate stuff, and what I'm keen for us to do is that is I think that's a denominational risk. Actually it's characterizes denominations that get a bit separated and structured and formalized. I'm keen for us to continue being a network of churches and the network idea is the partnership idea and it's partnership in the gospel and so that we only ever come up with structures and formal things that help us partner together well and moving forward with the gospel. And that's a highly relational activity as we take the gospel of people and as we share the gospel together, moving forward. So I think that that sense of keeping on maintaining that gospel fidelity relationally with those who are lost as well as those who believe, and how you facilitate that moving forward, I reckon as you grow, that's the area that can often get lost.
Sue Harrington:Yes, and it's interesting it can work both ways, because we're finding we need a few more structures. So it's minimal, viable, effective governance, if you like. That is, that's relationally based and with a purpose. It's that kind of idea. You need some structures as you get bigger because you can't just all do it by word of mouth. People have to understand what's going on but at the same time not let that take over. And it's for a purpose and it's to encourage ministry. Yeah, yeah and effectiveness.
Valerie Ling:Thank you so much for spending time with me today, paul and Sue, great pleasure.
Paul Harrington:It's a lot to be with you, valerie.
Valerie Ling:Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you liked what you heard and you think others should hear it too, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Catch you later.