Keith and Sarah Condie of the Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute join us to unpack the numbers from Valerie Ling's survey on rates of burnout and resignation thinking among our clergy.
We talk about the often-hidden struggles of church leaders, the pressures they face and the need to have an unwavering façade. The conversation throws a spotlight on the how a lack of encouragement and care can have on ministers, fostering self-doubt and a sense of isolation.
We further look at the meaning of "reputation" in church leadership, characteristics of a compassionate church, and accommodating the unexpected.
Download my research report and reflections
Watch the video version of this podcast
Complete a Clergy Wellbeing Quiz here
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and do not represent the stance of any institution. The research discussed is based on an assignment completed for my Masters in Leadership and has not undergone peer review. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
Keith and Sarah Condie of the Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute join us to unpack the numbers from Valerie Ling's survey on rates of burnout and resignation thinking among our clergy.
We talk about the often-hidden struggles of church leaders, the pressures they face and the need to have an unwavering façade. The conversation throws a spotlight on the how a lack of encouragement and care can have on ministers, fostering self-doubt and a sense of isolation.
We further look at the meaning of "reputation" in church leadership, characteristics of a compassionate church, and accommodating the unexpected.
Download my research report and reflections
Watch the video version of this podcast
Complete a Clergy Wellbeing Quiz here
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and do not represent the stance of any institution. The research discussed is based on an assignment completed for my Masters in Leadership and has not undergone peer review. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
Hey, it's Valerie Ling. I'm a clinical psychologist and I'm your host for the clergy well-being Down Under podcast. I'm looking forward to interviewing an expert today to take you through my findings from my research where I asked 200 pastors down under how they were doing. Don't forget to subscribe, like and share. Buckle up, and here we go. Hi everybody, welcome to another episode of the clergy well-being Down Under podcast. I'm happy with me, keith and Sarah Conde. I'm really looking forward to our chat today, keith and Sarah. Thank you, valerie.
Keith Condie:Yeah, thanks, Valerie. Thanks so much for having us.
Valerie Ling:Now. Do you know, Keith, that you are the reason why I do what I do? Do you have any memory of a conversation we had about a decade ago?
Keith Condie:I remember us having a conversation, but I can't remember how it landed in this particular space, so please just remind me.
Valerie Ling:Well, Keith, I was a solo clinical psychologist practicing in Sydney not long after coming back to Australia from Singapore, where we had a ministry season in Singapore, and I fell into this thing called a psychologist. Clients were looking for Christian psychologists and particularly I got a lot of clients who were working in churches and at the time I said to Josh, my husband, who was trained at Moore College. I said, Josh, what's going on? Why all the pastors coming through? And we talked about it and I said who do you reckon I should go talk to? And he said, oh, I reckon Keith Conde. And I don't know how we got in contact, but I did. I think I emailed you and I actually distinctly remember what I said. I said, Keith, I'm really grateful for all the business that I'm getting from the church, but I'd rather be out of business when it comes to this topic. What's going on? And you graciously had coffee with me and then you pointed me in the direction of where I could continue these conversations and that's how it began, Keith.
Keith Condie:I certainly remember you raising those matters and I thought you know what I thought at the time. I thought this is so important. I'm just not sure whether the powers of be they have sort of the energy to pursue this and to do something about it. That was my real concern.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, and by God's grace, you know, a decade later, I think we are so much more aware, so much more you know, wanting to figure out how we can, you know, serve God's people by serving the church and their leaders. So please, keith and Sarah, introduce what it is you are currently doing. I'd love to hear from you, maybe Sarah.
Sarah Condie:So Keith and I together co-direct the Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute, which is funded and supported by the Anglican Deaconess Ministries, and we've been doing that for seven years and really we just want to develop resources that churches can use around the area of mental health, wellbeing and relationships, because we know that churches are pretty busy and if we can provide resources that churches can use, that will help. Yeah, that's really where we're coming from.
Keith Condie:Recognising the stress that ministers are under and anything we think that can just resource them quite easily. That's that's sort of what we're trying to do. The Institute sounds pretty impressive, but you know you're looking at it.
Sarah Condie:Yeah, it's not very big in like it's us.
Keith Condie:Just you know two part-time workers.
Valerie Ling:Well, I've heard of your work. I've heard of how meaningful it has been and how it has resourced churches. So you may feel small but I think you know your work has really provided a lot of good out there. So you had a look at some of my findings. We might just have an open conversation. I mean, what stood out for you? What comes through to you when you, when you look at that?
Keith Condie:I suppose the first really obvious thing, Valerie, is that high figure of burnout symptoms. You know 30, 36% of the people you surveyed, that's, you know, that's a lot of people, that's not a small figure.
Keith Condie:So I mean, I know that's obvious, but just putting that on the table, that there really is a concern here which you know I think we need to be alert to and you know you draw out some of the sort of implications that that flow out of this. You know, are we going to have all of these ministers leaving and you know where are the shepherds for the flock? So I think it's a major concern that needs to be addressed.
Valerie Ling:And you know my figure is probably even conservative. I think you know in the wider literature you know, we might actually be seeing that it goes much higher. So I'd up to maybe 50% are under resourced, heading towards burnout of clergy. And it's an interesting thing you look at a number and you go, oh yeah, but is that really that bad? I mean, you know 55% are doing OK. Is that really something for us to be concerned? And why should we?
Sarah Condie:But then you ask, ok, are they really doing OK, or are they just lower down on that? This a sliding scale. So then maybe they're not at that burnout phase, but they're perhaps don't have healthy habits of how they live their ministry life and perhaps down the track they might end up in that place, yes or yeah. Like, yeah, I don't know. Like that I think that's a good question. Like, can you go back and look at that 65% and say, well, how healthy are they?
Keith Condie:Like yeah, even so, like this is more than a third of our ministers and again, I just can't remember your exact stat, I'm sure you've got the top of your head, is it? Oh, it's a 40% who have considered serious thoughts of leaving the ministry, was that? In the past 12 months.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, very close to that figure, yeah, yeah.
Keith Condie:OK, so let's just seriously consider, and even if a a proportion of them make that decision, we're losing our pastures if that's the case.
Sarah Condie:It's still a lot. That's a lot of churches.
Valerie Ling:Yes, yeah, you know some people have responded to me and say, well, that's not too far from a general statistic of the pandemic and I said, well, that is true, but look at what's happening at schools. I mean, this was part of my curiosity when I did the survey. Yes, you know, the research community is really responding so strongly to what's happening, to school principles, you know, and what's happening in the education sector. We're losing teachers. The teachers are seriously at. Schools are really under threat. It's a domino effect you lose your leader.
Keith Condie:Yes.
Valerie Ling:The impact of the community and the morale of staff. And then staff leave and you don't have a pipeline that generates new principles. Because in order to be a school principal you know you've got to have like a lot of street cred, leadership skill. It's a very complicated leadership position. It's not that easy to fill.
Valerie Ling:So when you've got schools then facing this crisis and you say, well, what's so bad about that for the church? You know what's the correlate Like, what's the parallel for us if we lose. You know all of that wisdom, all of that leadership capital, you know.
Keith Condie:Yes.
Sarah Condie:Well, it's sad and, you know, I just think of the people in churches. Like you know, it's very discouraging losing a leader, like whenever you know there's. I mean that, and if their pastor is leaving for those reasons, I think that's that has a huge impact. I mean it's the same, yeah. So I think it's. I think it's a significant thing to think about.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, you know, in terms of the mental health landscape in the church right now. You know what does it mean for a church who have leaders who aren't doing well and presumably the church mental health scene is also not one that's very stable at the moment, do you think? Do you know what I mean?
Keith Condie:Yeah, we haven't got any sort of hard data on that, but you know you just okay, you think about the impact of COVID obviously pushed many, many people or most of us more into the sort of the languishing type mode that was.
Keith Condie:You know, that was the word, and that has an impact. I think it's interesting, though, when you think about leaders and the mental health of the congregation, there is something actually helpful about a little bit of vulnerability from a leader around mental health or these sorts of you know, challenges and difficulties can actually send a helpful message to the community about. You know, we can talk about this and we can support each other in this. Now, I'm not saying it's a good thing that ministers have burnt out, but perhaps for some, being more in touch with their own vulnerabilities might lead them to be a little bit more open from the pulpit in their prayers and the things that are set up front in the church, and I think that's quite helpful for a church culture, because we've you know we've talked to people who have the sense of I don't belong in this church. You know this is a church for beautiful people and I'm not a beautiful person. I don't fit the perception of, you know the face that's presented by most people.
Valerie Ling:One of the most common questions we get in, you know, ministry, with our ministry spaces, is is it okay to be vulnerable? How much can I share, how much don't I share? You know, yes.
Keith Condie:Because there is oversharing and in a way that you know will actually undermine people's confidence in a pastor. So, you know, I think there's some caution here, but there's got. Surely there's a middle path between you. Know, interesting, in your work you talked about the sort of perception that you put forward of yourself, the face that you present.
Sarah Condie:Yes.
Keith Condie:And how perhaps some of those faces. It doesn't help when you can't be real about what you're really feeling and experiencing. So so obviously, some level of you know we need, we need, we need reality in our churches.
Sarah Condie:And and also I'm just wondering too, like, okay, so our church leadership are feeling that, but who's encouraging them and what is it that they think they need to be doing so that they don't reveal a softer, more vulnerable side? It's like what is it that's driving that, that they want to feel like they're forming, achieving, like what are the, what are their measures? That might not be articulated, but they're in their head. That's driving the well I need to be seen to be doing. Okay, so that they're putting on a mask.
Keith Condie:Is it like Sarah is there? Is there a sort of a culture that's, you know, shaping, shaping ministers and pastors, to be like that?
Sarah Condie:Well, that's what I'm asking, Like I just wonder, how do they start being like that and feel like you know, like I know a lot of ministers are like a lot of ministers are high achieving, they work hard, they have high expectations of themselves and but then you know, like they've got measures of I want to be seen, that I've got a church that's growing, that people are becoming Christian, and I think those kind of things were very hard in the pandemic, so it was like, oh, that's kind of been taken, but but you know, I, you know, I just wonder what are the things that they feel like they need to be doing, that they feel like maybe they're not doing and so they're putting on a mask because I don't know.
Sarah Condie:But I was also the other thing that I was really interested in with some of the things that you came up with from the school principals things about feedback that some of the ministers were talking about, like the well, the threats and the bullying, but also things like teasing and conflict and gossip and slander. And I just wonder, you know, when you get an email that's really nasty, like that has an impact on you, and if all the feedback, if a lot of the feedback you get from your congregation, and perhaps from others, is not encouraging. That that would feed into you feeling worse about yourself and worse about your ministry.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, it's almost like the mask is a reality, like you have to put on the mask because if you're getting a lot of this input from around you, it's death by a thousand paper cuts, really.
Sarah Condie:Well, I think that's and I think that's really interesting and I think do we, like you know, and I think I'm sitting in a congregation and I you know we are blessed by wonderful church ministry staff, but I think how often do I take the time to say thank you to them? And when they've preached, you know to say thank you. I really appreciate what you said and I just wonder if they that that's not a culture that we, as Christians sitting in our churches are good at either. You know, like we're very good at being critical and telling people when we think they haven't done the right thing. We do that extremely well.
Keith Condie:Yeah, but do we do the other? Do we encourage?
Valerie Ling:And we've been encouraged to encourage, yes, One of the things we hear a lot of is and it's related to this is, I think, certainly what I'm exposed to, which is possibly quite a heavy Sydney, sydney, evangelical flavor the threat of reputation. Reputation and what does reputation mean? I think sometimes you can listen to that word and think, oh, that means that you're on a power high. But see, I'm a psychologist and I am a by reputation profession.
Valerie Ling:My understanding of reputation is that there's a certain level of trust that is given to a psychologist because of your reputation. In other words, you're good standing amongst the community, not just clients, but your colleagues, right? So it goes with if you have a good standing amongst your colleagues, they will refer to you, they will say this is someone we trust and we believe that you will be safe and taken care of. Your good standing amongst the community is that this is a place you can go and you will not be harmed, Right, and so reputation for us is good standing, and I think that for pastors that it has a similar flavor. Do you think that there's?
Keith Condie:a looking so definitely and this is we find this in the New Testament. You know you don't Elders need to be people of good repute and that's exactly that. It's that sense of this is a trustworthy person, you know, and you don't want leadership in the church. That's not trustworthy. So that reputational thing and yeah, I think it's very similar to what you're saying about your profession, Valerie.
Valerie Ling:And I think there's one more level and this is something I think not very many people in the public know is that when pastors look at that, it's also when I see my maker. What will he say? Yes, not necessarily reputation, but that is also a faithfulness and a stewardship. You know how will I face him. What will he say to me?
Keith Condie:I've been interested with this, with this is Christ church, isn't? This is not the pastors church, it's Christ church that we've been entrusted, people are entrusted with and yeah, yeah, what will they say? And so it goes.
Valerie Ling:It's huge. And so, sarah, when you were saying so, when you're getting all this feedback, that's negative and can almost make you feel like you're really doing a lot of damage. I think, it fits into that as well. So it's a real sense of shame, discouragement, uncertainty as well.
Sarah Condie:Well, yeah, and I think you know, I mean, I think negativity and negative feedback like is like Velcro, we remember that. So we might have, we might have, you know, 10 positive comments but one negative will just write those off, you know. So we notice the negative and they have much more of an impact on us. Yeah, just going back to what you're talking about, you know like we want our churches to be safe places, where people are safe and careful. What are the? What are the qualities that help that? I think they're the softer, you know, like the fritz of the spirit. You know like a place where people are kind and gentle, they listen and they're compassionate, and I think it goes back to that vulnerability. I'm happy to sit with you and listen and if you tell me you're feeling awful, I will sit with you and want to know how. You know what that's like for you and walk with you.
Valerie Ling:This is the midpoint break for the podcast. If you want to put a pause and walk away and come back with it, make sure you do check out the description for all the various downloads that we have for you, including my full report, research and reflections. You might also want to remember to like, share and subscribe. So stop now or keep going. So the transformational leader is somebody who works through team, essentially right. So who is able to look at the ground, look at the vision, work through their team and actually then move them towards.
Valerie Ling:You know, from point A to point B, the servant leader tends to be somebody who is very much in the middle of the process, responding to needs. It's not a bad style at all, but it is probably a style that fits within a more community-orientated type of leadership where it's a cooperative, all equally sharing the load. Everybody is, you know, doing it together as a community. So my hypothesis is that when you've got churches that are scaling and there's more, there's less of that we're doing it together. It's the 20% doing the 80% of the work. The servant leader often takes the responsibility back or, you know, does a lot of the responding. That's my hypothesis. Yeah, yeah, so it does come back to that sort of sense of? Is it also a case that, therefore, there's personality there of feeling guilty or wanting to take back or, you know, not knowing what to do with all the needs that are around and so responding to it?
Sarah Condie:Yes, and you could just say how that can seem to be, and that would just wear anyone out. Yes, over time.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, because there's never an end of need. No.
Sarah Condie:I think that's the thing, and I think that this is the thing about life and you know the Christian, like any life is that unexpected things happen, and I think that's the normal. And I think often we're structured well. We organize our lives so much so that everything is expected or we want to have control over things so that when the unexpected thing does happen, there's no margin or space for that to fit. And I think that can just be enormously stressful because you feel like you're investing all this time into responding to the thing that you didn't know was going to happen and you think about all the things that are on your list that you're not going to get done. Yeah, and that's quite depowering because you think, oh well, you know, I didn't get anything done today.
Keith Condie:And I'm telling you, Valerie, Sarah puts on her to do list the unexpected.
Sarah Condie:Yeah, and so it's there. Yes, and I think it just gives you a bit of language around. Well, actually, what did I do today? But I don't know that that's something that a lot of people do.
Valerie Ling:Is to put is to create margin for the unexpected.
Sarah Condie:Well, yeah, or to expect the unexpected. Like is that in our week, like I think most people don't have like where is the unexpected thing in their diary? Like it's not there? Yeah, when it happens, but when it it's okay if it happens once in the week, but it's like I think in ministry, like you know, when I worked at a church, like just about every week the unexpected thing was what took up time. So you know consistently that's what happens.
Valerie Ling:But what you were saying, sarah. You know there's one of the podcast episodes. I interviewed three people from the missions community because I think they do leadership in a fascinating way. You know both missions. It's so messy, it's so unpredictable, and that's what one of them said. He said you know, in leadership, in mission, you must create buffer because anything can happen and it's like it's almost it's your, it's your responsibility, like it's part of the job description, that in all of your personal resourcing and how you think you're going to plan, you got to create a large degree of margin.
Sarah Condie:Well, I think that that's true of a lot of lives, you know. I mean, I think that that's very and that's very insightful of that person to have said that, but I do think that a lot of us live like that.
Valerie Ling:So this is the interesting thing about I think has come out from so Kirsty Bucknell, who's also done some work with CMD, her research of about reflection and insight in ministers. So one of the reasons why I put the emotional awareness or the emotional labor, if you like, questions was because we were seeing it's added onto. It's not only about reflection and it's not only about insight towards a resilient problem solving. It's the foundation thing of actually having insight into emotion. The prompt to get you to reflect. It's not the emotion. You know you feel something and then you go.
Valerie Ling:What is this? What's going on here? And so, if you don't know, if you're afraid of your emotions, if you don't attend to it, it's often not going to be the prompt to get you to reflect. And so one of the things that I found in the survey was that burnout was related to lower levels of emotional labor and therefore insight.
Keith Condie:Which is fascinating. I think that's really interesting, yeah, which just raises that whole question of you know, helping people grow in self-awareness and in that ability to reflect, and just how important and significant that is, I think.
Sarah Condie:Because you've got that but you can do that. But there's also the systemic like that you have no control over, like there's like all of us work within a system and if the system has structures in place that make it difficult for us to change or respond because we are, you know, recognizing that we're stressed and feeling languishing, that doesn't help either. It's almost like there needs to be a meeting of that self-reflection with something that comes from down.
Keith Condie:That was the other really interesting thing. That sort of you know struck us about your work, valerie. It was just there's all the personal stuff that you can do, but there's also this system that you are part of and, no matter how, you know many well-being practices you've built into your life and you know how self-aware you are and how well you handle your own emotional stuff. There's these outside factors and I think I think I really appreciated the fact that you, you were very alert to that and it's not just a case of you know, if someone's struggling, well, there must be to do with their own self-confidence.
Sarah Condie:But there might be a big, bigger thing at play here.
Keith Condie:Yeah, so.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, you're right, and this has been a great conversation. I think I'm growing in my insight. I've just been prompted to think that I read somewhere that in organizations so in workplaces this is probably the first time maybe in history that we actually have in workplaces up to four to five generations. So you know, boomers, builders, gen Xs, millennials, gen Zs you know this is the first time we've had that. But this is probably also, like you was talking about systems issues this is probably true of the church as well. So I haven't talked about this.
Valerie Ling:But you know, the university said I had to do a pilot, right? So I actually piloted. One of my first research questions was well, how do we even define leadership effectiveness in a church? So go and do a pilot. So I actually piloted. You know, I just put it on social media and I asked people you know what age they were at? Because there was a research paper I read to say that it's very hard to define ministry effectiveness because the different generations have different internal ideas of what that is right. So I put out this poll and then asked you know people? It was fascinating, okay, so you had the sort of over 70s, sort of the 70s and over camp defined ministry effectiveness as pastoral visitation.
Keith Condie:Okay, yes.
Valerie Ling:And then you had another camp that defined it by the events you know, like, oh, the Christmas tree is still up. You know that's not effective leadership, you know. Or you know the choir, you know. So there was that camp. And then you had the people with kids. So you sort of your 30s to 40s about the ministry. Effectiveness is a degree to which we have programs for the kids and the children is incorporated into the services. And then you have the younger generation. Now that was very revealing to me. So what do you guys say? Yeah, it's fascinating because these are your millennials into Gen Z. Now Our person needs to be out there, aware of social issues, aware of contemporary issues. They shouldn't be locked up in church. They should be engaging with us outside in these issues.
Keith Condie:Oh, that is fascinating. Well, yeah, I know, but you just think about that. You think about now you're the pastor, and if you've heard that and you've got all those generations, just I mean the level of expectation around that is massive.
Sarah Condie:That's big. I hadn't really thought through like that way of looking at the pressures or what clergy are facing, like, yeah, that I think that's really interesting yeah.
Valerie Ling:And so it comes back to. So the conflict that we're seeing in church. I'd be curious to hear what you have to say, Cause one of the things that I've been mulling around in my head is churches to me, almost has the expectations that we behave like family, but we have to be run like organizations, and so the conflict is really hard to define. Not is it interpersonal conflict that we're experiencing, cause in family there's a lot of interpersonal conflict, or is it kind of this sort of systems conflict, organizational conflict? It's so messy I don't know what to make of it.
Keith Condie:Wow, yeah, I don't think I want to make it that either, valerie, here. But you're right, we used the language of family and again, there's very strong New Testament language around that the church's family, the household of faith. But and of course families do have their conflicts, but I'm not sure we do that terribly well in our churches.
Valerie Ling:Well, it makes a lot of sense because, you know, we all bring how we do conflict in our families into a church environment, but we all have different families.
Valerie Ling:So, you know, in my psychology practice I talk about this very openly because I got into a lot of hot soup in my early years of leading my team, because I used to say to them I know that you see me as a personal space, the way I relate with my children and you know the way that I relate, you know, with you in a social space.
Valerie Ling:You know you see me as being this person who is like this, with shoes off, self, if you like, but I'm not always gonna be like that in the professional space, you know, because we have a different working relationship, you know. But the same character that I display in those personal relationships are the ones you need to call me out on. So, you know, with my kids I am fair, I want to be fair, I want to be kind, I want to be gentle, I want to be respectful, right, and I give them pocket money. Now, in the professional space, you need to be able to see me as being that same person, fair and respectable and all of the things, but I'm not always gonna give you pocket money. Yeah, give you what you want. I kind of look at it and say you know how we make ministry? Folk do these days more and more work in the family systems.
Keith Condie:Yes.
Valerie Ling:I believe even at a congregation level it's worth exploring that so that we're a little bit more aware of what we're bringing in, I don't know, is that unreasonable?
Keith Condie:I don't think it's unreasonable. Why, yeah, yeah, and that whole thing about you know the anxiety within the system and the role of the leader as being a non-anxious presence. It's a powerful concept in terms of, you know, enabling a group of people to move forward and you know, of course, in the church that's seeking to move a group of people forward in maturity and Christ. And, yeah, there's a lot of skill and wisdom associated with that, isn't there?
Valerie Ling:Hmm.
Sarah Condie:And I do think you know as much as we talk about the different leadership models that you're talking about. I do think by our behaviour. I think, going back to what you were saying, I think well, a leader models by what we see of them. You know, like we do hear them speak, but we watch them and I think the way they live their life, you know like things that they do.
Keith Condie:We see that and and it shapes the community, doesn't it? It does, yeah, yeah. And can I say, would Sarah say that this reminds me too, the whole thing about the modelling effect of leaders who pastors and ministers have seen and have looked to as role models. And I think for a lot of those people, you know they're heroes in the life of ministry. You know they're the great ones who have particular capacities and abilities and gifts which you know not all of us have. And then when we try and copy them, you can just see the potential there for that to impact and you know, trying to do things that they're either not gifted for or they just don't have the same capacity as some people do. And yet you know they're setting that person up as their role model but it's sinking them by trying to be that person when they're not that person.
Valerie Ling:I'd love to know. I think or to ask you from a resilience perspective. To me it seems like such a hard thing to say. You know, we want our ministry leaders to be resilient and I've even heard in spaces with sort of people who have been in ministry sort of a decade or two decades ago, saying they just don't make them like they used to.
Keith Condie:Yes.
Valerie Ling:How do we respond to this?
Keith Condie:I think we've got to be you know what.
Keith Condie:I reckon resilience we can use language around resilience in a way that actually shames people. It makes them feel like you know if you're not bouncing back what's wrong with you and putting all of the onus on you know their responsibility. It's a really fine line to walk here, because, of course, we can all do things. We can all. We all make choices, and we can make choices that are actually helpful for us and not so helpful for us. And we want to encourage wisdom, but at the same time, we don't want we don't want to turn to others, we don't want to. You know, we don't want to shoot our wounded by saying, oh, if you were tougher, you get through this.
Sarah Condie:So I think that sorry, sarah we can say Sorry, no, no, you keep going.
Keith Condie:Yeah. So I think there's that reality, but at the same time, there is I raised this in a class the other day, and this is a class with some people who have worked in schools and said someone working in a school, they said all of the teachers are saying this is what parents are. Now, you know, the way that they are trying to protect their children is not helping the development of their resilience muscle, and so, you know, are there very strong cultural factors and norms that are you know we are now in a situation where perhaps it is reducing levels of resilience. So I think we've got that reality to deal with as well. But the way we talk about it and the way we deal with it, I just don't want to see people more crushed Does that make sense?
Valerie Ling:Yeah, it does. Yeah, Because it minimizes the pathway to why they are struggling.
Sarah Condie:Yes.
Valerie Ling:But there has been a pathway actually for why they're struggling.
Sarah Condie:And I wonder too, whether we've equated the word resilient with productive, so that resilient if we're productive, but what if you can't be productive? What if you have a?
Keith Condie:A disability.
Sarah Condie:A disability but actually you are doing really well where you're at. Like you like we're cut, like you know. That person is saying it is well with my soul and they are content with their lot Like. That to me is a picture of a resilient person, but we don't see that, or we don't.
Keith Condie:We don't frame it that way because their output is not as high as perhaps other people's.
Valerie Ling:I think that's so insightful, that is so true. I hear there are a lot in our ministry clients they feel guilty when they don't have the capacity, or they believe they don't have capacity, to produce, because then they're wasting people's money and they're not being faithful.
Sarah Condie:And that must be so hard. Like that's an awful place to sit, isn't it Very?
Keith Condie:awful and I think there's theological realities here. I mean when the Apostles says you know, when I am weak then I am strong, and you know the whole two Corinthians 12 stuff about the thawing in the flesh, and there's got to be something going on there that we need to pay attention to. And it's not just you know perhaps. Perhaps there are times when a minister is their capacity is down for whatever reason, but as they live out the Christian life before their flock in the midst of their incapacity, that's actually bringing real benefit to that community.
Sarah Condie:And maturity and a depth in people's relationships with God and the people at the church.
Keith Condie:Other members of the body stepping up and I don't know.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, I'm really with you and my concern. I started to speak about the threat response which, in the work that I did, I define destructive leadership really at the level of not narcissistic or abusive leadership, because I think that's a very different scenario, where someone intentionally is in a position of leadership to wield it for their own power and for their own purposes. But I, you know, I've defined it really as a point where you are actually using more aggressive, more forceful, more punitive practices, so blaming, getting angry, just saying, just do it, you know, just that sort of a thing and that had a link to burnout. So I don't know which way it goes, but there's something in there. The more under resourced you are, the more likely you're also going to say that I've actually used some more aggressive or more forceful leadership tactics.
Keith Condie:Well, I just know what I'm like with my tanks empty. That's you know. You just, you don't have.
Sarah Condie:You just don't have the resources and you know it doesn't.
Keith Condie:it doesn't promote the display of the future, the spirit doesn't.
Valerie Ling:Yeah. So, and I think to me it's a, it's a concerning dynamic that we have in churches at the moment that we are having a lot more of this sort of conflict that is warlike and aggressive, both ways, I have to say both ways, because leadership to team and congregation and the other way around, I don't know. Yeah, it's very concerning.
Sarah Condie:It is concerning and it's how you break some of those cycles and turn it around.
Keith Condie:Yeah, so again, we've got beautiful pictures in the New Testament of of you know, I mean, I know some things do fall apart and there's significant splits, but but you know we've got a model, we've got. We've got we've got a picture of how people beset with sin can live together in harmony and, and you know the realities of repentance and forgiveness and, and you know, working through conflicts in a in a godly manner. Yeah, we just don't always do it, do we?
Valerie Ling:Unfortunately, perhaps there's also a fear that how do we actually know and define when we've actually got to call out narcissistic, abusive, abusive practices? You know can't always be harmonious and not call it, we do have to call it out, Call it out. How do you know which is which, I suppose, and how do we figure that out? And I don't expect us to have the answers. I only just raise it as an awareness that it is. It is. It's quite complicated.
Keith Condie:It is, isn't it.
Valerie Ling:It is yeah Quite complicated.
Keith Condie:Yeah.
Valerie Ling:Well, I will make a pitch to say that I think that's where professional supervision comes in.
Sarah Condie:Oh, I think you absolutely right, we are with you.
Valerie Ling:That's how psychologists are kept honest. Well, somebody else you know looks into your practice and says hmm, we both have professional supervision and have benefited from it immensely.
Keith Condie:Yes, so yeah, we're with you.
Valerie Ling:If you had one thing, just to wrap up one thing if someone in ministry was listening to us a pastor, someone in church leadership what would you like them to walk away with from hearing us today?
Sarah Condie:That God loves them and he loves them as much as he did the day they were saved, and that's not going to change. And really we play to an audience of one and he looks at us, he delights in us and he wants us to know that he's on, he's on our side and it's, you know, yeah, like he's our helper and he's our rock and he's our refuge and he's with us. And yeah, I think, when we remember that we are God's precious, beloved children, that you know that shapes us. I think I'll echo.
Keith Condie:Sarah's comment and just I know we didn't talk about this, but I just think, in terms of being sustained in ministry for the long haul, I think it's that it's that deep trust in God's goodness towards us that is a sustaining role that I think sometimes we downplay, we think it's got all the other things, but that's the thing, that's the things going to get us through the nasty emails, the, you know, the difficult conversations, the conflict, all of that sort of stuff.
Valerie Ling:And if there were members of a church who were listening in to try to get some insight as to how to care, in love, for their ministry team? What's one thing you'd like them to walk away with?
Sarah Condie:How can you encourage your staff, ministry team and communicate that you love them, yet you want what's best and like? How can you do that and pray for them and yeah, and say thank you. Say thank you every week. I think that would be a good place to start.
Keith Condie:Yeah, honor them and when there is something that needs to be raised, just to think very carefully about how that is done, yeah, and, and you know, sometimes, sometimes things do need to be said, conversations need to be had, but there are ways to do that with gentleness, with kindness with you know, out of a genuine love and concern and and you know, if we took to heart Proverbs 15, one of harsh words stirs up anger and a gentle answer turns away.
Sarah Condie:Turns away, roth. I think we thought about that before we either open our mouth or craft anything that we're going to send to someone. That might just be a good place to start.
Valerie Ling:Wow yeah, finally any wisdom at the denominational level, or even the college and training levels, to support the development and the sustainability of ministry.
Keith Condie:I think you know that earlier conversation, when we're in the conversation, when we were talking about you know self awareness and being reflective. So I think and I think some steps have been taken that direction. I think that's fantastic. That's really important. I suppose you know, at the systemic level, that's really to do with you know people in you know higher positions of responsibility to think through what can be done. But and I don't have any answers there, but I just think we need to have it on the radar, be talking about it, be thinking about it.
Valerie Ling:Wonderful. Well, Keith and Sarah, did you have anything that you wanted to say?
Sarah Condie:to me. Yeah, that's beyond my little mind.
Valerie Ling:Keith and Sarah, thank you so much for spending time with me. It's been such a joy.
Sarah Condie:Thank you for having me. Thank you for your work and ministry.
Keith Condie:Yes.
Sarah Condie:Yeah.
Keith Condie:Keep up the great work, thank you.
Valerie Ling:Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you liked what you heard and you think others should hear it too, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Catch you later.