Advance not Retreat with Dr Chelsea Gill

Join Dr. Chelsea Gill from Bond Business School as we explore the topic of reflective retreats. Chelsea, with her deep insights into clergy retreats, examines the role of attention restoration theory in counteracting mental and emotional exhaustion.

We discuss two core types of clergy retreats, educational and reflective, and their structures. Chelsea explains attentional fatigue common among clergy and offers solutions to restore mental energy. Our conversation dives into the elements making reflective retreats impactful, spotlighting social activities and professional development as essential for clergy wellbeing.

We also discuss crafting retreats for optimal rejuvenation and share practical tips for activities and taking breaks from technology and work. The emotional benefits of retreats are pivotal for clergy to effectively serve their communities. We conclude by addressing the rhythm and emotional aspects of retreats, emphasizing the need for support in processing emotions. Tune into this episode for valuable insights on enhancing clergy wellbeing through retreats so much so you will want to Advance and not Retreat.  To contact Chelsea: chgill@bond.edu.au

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Podcast Disclaimer:

Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and do not represent the stance of any institution. The research discussed is based on an assignment completed for my Masters in Leadership and has not undergone peer review. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Transcript

Valerie Ling: 0:01

Dear listener, welcome to another episode of the Clergy Wellbeing Down Under podcast. It's Valerie Ling. I'm a clinical psychologist and I am your host for today. The podcast is being produced under the banner of the Centre for Effective Serving, which is a leadership and workplace well-being consulting arm that I lead. I also lead a Centre for Effective Living, which is a psychology practice located in Sydney. Many of our psychologists are Christians and on any given week are supporting our ministry and mission families of here in Australia and around the world. We are currently recruiting for two full-time equivalent positions, that is, for psychologists to join the Centre for Effective Living to work with us in our mission to see a world without burnout.

Valerie Ling: 0:59

If you know someone who is a registered psychologist, a student who is soon to be a registered psychologist, someone who is planning to move to Australia and would love to be registered as a psychologist, would you send them our way? The best thing to do is to send them a link wwweffectivelivercomau. Slash join-our-team. I'll put the link in the podcast description as well. I hope you enjoy this episode. Hi everyone, I have got Dr Chelsea Gill with me today. Hi, chelsea, hi.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 1:45

Valerie.

Valerie Ling: 1:46

You are an assistant professor of management at Bond Business School, is that correct?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 1:52

Correct. Yes, I've been to Queensland on the Gold Coast.

Valerie Ling: 1:55

Beautiful and you are also a ministry spouse, I think. Is that correct?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 2:00

Yes, Correct, yes.

Valerie Ling: 2:03

So you're a wonderful person to chat with today and you and I connected because you had reached out to connect with your own research, which is very interesting in terms of retreats and some of the practices that pastors can put into place for their own wellbeing. So what motivated that, Chelsea?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 2:30

Good question. Many people ask me that because it is a very niche topic. Not everyone is interested in being married to a clergyman.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 2:41

As you mentioned, I experienced first hand the joys and the tough times of ministry life and I was well aware that every denomination offers retreats for their clergy on an annual basis, and often these are strongly encouraged, if not mandated. And because I was already in the academic sector and teaching in higher education, I very much value research and evidence-based practice, and I started to explore whether there was any evidence underlying the design of these retreats and the continued use of them, and there appeared to be no academic research that I could find in that space. So I guess that was one primary motivation for embarking on that journey. But also, with all of the stressors and demands that we all face, our attentional capacities are constantly being drawn upon, and that is, are you more uniquely experienced by ministers because of their clergy context? And so, combining both of those things the attentional fatigue that all of us experience, but which is often exacerbated in a clergy context, and the lack of empirical research around the value of retreats, led me to then pursue a PhD and explore this further.

Valerie Ling: 4:14

Okay, and how did you define what a retreat is?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 4:20

In my research I was specifically looking within the Christian context and framework, and a retreat for my purposes was a time that consisted of at least three days away from the normal place of residence, so it had to be offsite and a continual three days or more. That was purposely designed for clergy and the retreats. There's a breadth of types of retreats, so predominantly it was a minimum of three days away from your traditional space, to put it bluntly.

Valerie Ling: 5:06

Okay.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 5:08

But within the retreats there were educational retreats or restorative retreats. That was how I classified the different retreats, so some denominations. Within Australia would they all use the term retreats in general, but for my purposes I then classified educational retreats as retreats where there was a more structured program and there were input sessions. So there were some teaching sessions or some topics that would be presented by a speaker and then potentially discussed, as opposed to reflective retreats, which were much more unstructured. There was less of a program. Within the reflective retreats, though, some were completely silent and no speaking was allowed. Other retreats I classified as non-silent reflective retreats and those retreats had to have at least three hours of silence per day in order to be classed as a reflective retreat.

Valerie Ling: 6:18

Okay, so I'm looking at your infographic here, which we will link with the podcast, and so we've got. You've got, on the one hand, all of the stresses that have been well documented for ministry, and then you've got interestingly, you've got prolonged mental effort and mental fatigue that goes to diminished cognitive capacity. That's is that like the jobs, demands, resources, type of pathway, or it's a little bit different. It's got to do with attention, maybe.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 6:50

Attention restoration theory was my underpinning framework, and so it posits that we are all using our attentional capacities daily and our attentional capacities are of a finite resource. They shrink Because we are constantly focusing attention. It's almost an endangered resource because, whether it's at work or at home, we are constantly being forced to focus our attention. So attention restoration theory it claims that mental fatigue is actually caused by our attentional capacity being drained. So it's a cognitive theory. It comes from environmental psychology and although previous research has looked at well being strategies or emotional strategies for clergy, there was nothing in the cognitive space. So this is trying to understand well, how does our attentional capacities work and what can we do to restore them, according to the framework which Rachel and Stephen Kaplan coined in about the late 1980s. So there's been a lot of empirical research over the last three decades that have validated this across numerous contexts. But they suggest that attention can be subdivided into two parts.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 8:13

We have involuntary attention and we have directed attention. So involuntary attention is where we are just effortlessly fascinated by something you know. When you walk down the beach or you walk outside and you see a beautiful tree or a bird, your mind is just drawn to the beauty and it's so easy for you to focus attention on that. It's a positive thing. Contrast that with voluntary or directed attention. That's what we do when we're at work and not enjoying a task or where we're having to do things. And the more we use directed attention, the more fatigued we become. If we can engage the involuntary attentional capacities more often, the theory argues that we will have improved cognitive capacity rather than diminished cognitive capacity. So by spending time in a restorative environment, hopefully we start to feel much better. And according to the theory, there's different characteristics of a restorative environment and there's different benefits of restorative environments. So that was the framework that then shaped my research.

Valerie Ling: 9:26

Do you think that clergy have more attentional demands, or is it a leadership thing? Or right now in society, what do you think?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 9:34

I think it's a society-wide phenomenon that's going on, but with the clergy, the unique aspect here is the interface between those work-related stressors and the boundary-related stressors relating to the homework interface, which is very difficult to separate. They can't just go home and switch off, like many people can from the workplace, because of the nature of the 24-7 demands that when a crisis happens with someone in your parish you can't say, oh sorry, I'm not working tonight, it's my day off. If there's been a tragedy, you respond. So I think the constant demands on clergy attention really exacerbate this issue.

Valerie Ling: 10:18

So from. I'm thinking sort of in multiple spaces now. Firstly, thinking about how very sure our attentions are all being impacted. Thinking around environment grabs our attention. Any business marketing program I've attended has told me that the new currency is not time, it's attention. Whoever can grab someone's attention, you try to hold them and then all the algorithms get that. I think people are used to sound bites as well. People get impatient, so they want you to move on, and so you're getting smaller and smaller windows really to recharge and recover. So that's probably like societal thing, which means that at a leadership level let's say not clergy, but just at a leadership level that mental taxing. I was noticing it even for myself that there's not a lot of simple things I can do anymore. Everything needs my attention, Absolutely so deep and focused, and I have to do it quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly. So what I'm hearing you say is the additional loading for people in ministry is the boundaries are blurred as well. You don't have a clear switch off or a clock off.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 11:35

Yeah.

Valerie Ling: 11:38

And that whole thing of the impact of family. That's like your attention just keeps going, doesn't it? Because even if you're at home, away from church, you're still very aware of holding everything that's happening.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 11:52

And some clergy live on site next to the church, so physically they're not actually very far away from the church building.

Valerie Ling: 12:00

Yeah.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 12:01

And with technology social media it's just so constant the demands on our attention. That's why it's an endangered resource if we want to use strong language.

Valerie Ling: 12:10

Yeah Well, I've got a bit of an interesting story. When we were living in a man's, I hadn't realized that I was doing all this vigilance about the house, because, no matter how thick skinned I am that's apparently subconsciously I'm still thinking if anybody would have drove past the house and saw this, you know. And then we moved back into our own home and I was noticing how I was doing all these habitual things and then I stopped to think why am I doing this? For example, the weed, the small, tiny little speck of a weed that was growing out of the driveway, you know, the cement grout, like that thing. I was like picking them all out. I said wait a minute, why am I doing this? Like this can wait. And I realized oh, because subconsciously, without even realizing it, it was just part of my routine, because I didn't want to you know, for whatever reasons drive by and look at the front and go oh my gosh, yes, what? When you say endangered resource, what do you mean by that?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 13:18

I think it's something that requires us to acknowledge the fragility of our attentional capacity in order to ensure that we can take certain actions to guarantee we have restored cognitive capacity. It's unrealistic to assume that 24 seven we're going to be feeling cognitively fabulous, but to be aware that if we don't nurture and take care of our attentional resources, that can then lead us down a difficult path and mental fatigue. The flow on effects of that can be drastic, as you know, with burnout and those types of things. So I'm suggesting that we need to be a little bit more proactive and preventative before it gets too late and takes a lot longer to then bring that restorative functioning back.

Valerie Ling: 14:17

Yeah, and so this is where your research into the retreats come in, and I'm just looking here. You were saying that there was a difference, isn't it, between attending an education based retreat and a more reflective retreat. Would that be right? So, what's in an educational retreat Is that where you're turning out for workshops and seminars, and those types of things.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 14:43

Yes, and that may look different depending on the domination, depending on the year, etc. But at the end of the day there's several sessions a day, probably at least two.

Valerie Ling: 14:53

Yeah.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 14:54

And for some denominations that might actually be quite a spacious and relaxing retreat. But there's still two input sessions at least a day and mentally that while it could be intentionally trying to give some professional development opportunities, it is still taxing mentally.

Valerie Ling: 15:16

Yeah, so you're still getting cognitive input. Okay, and so what have you actually found? What seemed to be the type of retreat that was most beneficial?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 15:30

So, first off, all retreats that I looked at, across several denominations, in terms of a relaxed mental state and whether people felt better mentally after the retreat, all of the retreats led to a positive increase in that measurement. However, it was the reflective retreats that gave a larger benefit as opposed to educational retreats and within the reflective retreats, silent retreats offered more restorative benefits on site during the actual experience, but after the retreat, consistently with all the other types of retreats, the benefits subside fairly quickly. So I looked at a two-week follow-up and, regardless of the retreat type, there had been a decline in the relaxed mental state, and that's understandable. Once you're back at work there's all of the usual stressors. You have to catch up on everything. So the retreats were beneficial. The silent retreats were the most beneficial on site.

Valerie Ling: 16:43

How do you define a silent retreat? Absolutely no talking whatsoever, correct? I think I would retreat from that retreat.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 16:50

Some people love it, some people hate it. But interestingly, even in a completely silent retreat, one of the benefits that participants shared with me was the social benefits, and that seems quite unusual, in a bit of a paradox, because they're not talking to anyone, but they felt a sense of companionship, of solidarity, that these other people who are with me in silence, they understand, they empathize, they know what I'm going through. We're on this journey together, so I found that fascinating that, despite not speaking, they still felt socially connected and that was a real positive, because often clergy feel quite isolated and they need to be careful who they entrust themselves to when they're struggling with things. Yeah, that was unexpected, from an unexpected finding.

Valerie Ling: 17:42

I think there's some suggestion that there's a probably a higher number of people who identify with introversion, who select to go into. The ministry is a fairly reflective, somewhat scholarly pathway as well. So I wonder if it is having time to actually introspect. Not have everybody's voices, just able to be alone with yours and in the companionship of other like minded individuals probably was quite restful. So I'm wondering what hypothesis you might have had as to why they had different like okay, I can, I think. I think I get why any retreat is better than nothing the environment, you're probably going to eat better, you're resting a little bit more, but you know what's happening in these reflective retreats that had improvement not only on site but even after.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 18:41

I was trying to investigate that a bit further by looking at the, the environment, the activities and different experiences that the participants had, which would lead to either immediate restorative outcomes or longer term restorative outcomes, in my case measured only at a two week follow up. Yeah when it came to immediate restorative outcomes, being in an environment which was fascinating, which captivated their attention effortlessly. So the retreat centre might have been in the forest as opposed to a city motel, seem to be positive.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 19:23

Participating in activities, like some reflective quiet times, some spiritual worship activities or relaxation activities, certainly promoted restorative, immediate outcomes. When it came to enduring restorative outcomes, though, social activities whether that was spoken or not, it that was valued and helped people maintain those benefits for longer, perhaps because they could reach out to those colleagues who perhaps they had bonded with Injuring. Restorative outcomes were promoted by some sort of professional development activity. That happened on retreat, which may or may not have been completely structured. They still may have engaged in some personal growth through their spiritual reflections. That were done privately, for example, but across all retreat types, certainly the fact that they were mentally away from their normal environment, that they participated in activities and that they did not engage with technology.

Valerie Ling: 20:25

Right.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 20:25

That was a big plus. A few participants did, almost with a sense of guilt, admit to me that they were checking their phones and their emails because they were dealing with crises. One one person shared with me that there was a couple of funerals that had to be organised, or the need for them arose while they were on retreat and they did not feel comfortable, or that it was appropriate to ignore that need.

Valerie Ling: 20:55

This is the midpoint break for the podcast. If you want to put a pause and walk away and come back to it, make sure you do check out the description for all the various downloads that we have for you, including my full report, research and reflections. You might also want to remember to like, share and subscribe. So stop now or keep going, yeah.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 21:19

So it's a tart. I mean, in this day and age, to to not check emails or your phone for three days. Some people feel completely vulnerable and naked not doing that, but there are benefits when we are able to do that.

Valerie Ling: 21:34

Yeah. So if I want to go back to your list, I think the environment that. I think that's really very telling because I think even in a post, like through the pandemic with you know, people working from home and things like that are not stepping out. Nature has always been found to be restorative. I think it uses a different part of our brain. It's a more sensory orientated, a more grounded experience. So that makes sense to me.

Valerie Ling: 22:00

Engaging in the relaxation activities makes sense to me as well, because people in ministry often have traumatic stress that they hold in their body. The body's all hunched up and, all you know, ready to fight, fight or freeze. That makes, I think, the social is interesting. So we had another podcast episode with Megan, who's with the Baptist church, and you know we were talking about loneliness and you know that when you actually have camaraderie, a sense of we're doing it together, you don't have to be talking shop, you don't have to be talking about any deeper meaningful things, but just a sense that, oh, we're doing, we're at it together, we're friends. That makes sense to me.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 22:44

And the relationships clergy have within their church pastoral relationships compared to friendships. That's another dynamic that's quite different from other professions.

Valerie Ling: 22:57

Yeah, and it's still. It has a heavy attention on. It never switches off, because I can discharge a client after 15, 20 sessions or I can go home, but you never do that with your ministry, with your parish. They're always on your mind and on your heart, right? The no-tech thing makes sense to me as well. I think we. So long as you're connected online, you just have an awareness that things are going on and then a sense that you've got to check in. So the spiritual reflections of that. If we look at some of the things that I was finding, and others have found as well that while clergy may have a reflective posture, what they reflect on seems to make the difference, you know, because it can be the difference between rumination and worry or actually restoring a sense of wellbeing. So I think that's interesting.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 23:55

And the attention restoration theory, the underpinning framework I've used. The four steps of the restorative process that emerge from spending time in a natural environment, a restorative environment, are fairly straightforward and they make sense.

Valerie Ling: 24:14

Hey. So at this point in the podcast I've had to edit and add something in because I got carried away and didn't actually let Chelsea, I think, finish what her four steps to restorative process is during a retreat. So here it is. Number one clearing the mind, and she's got an example here from a participant that says it takes a while just to calm down. You're rushing for all this time and then all of a sudden you stop. You've got to get rid of all that access, adrenaline and just breathe, and that takes at least 24 hours.

Valerie Ling: 24:53

Number two recovery of directed attention, and the example is there's a strong sense of reality, without static not the noise going on and the pace that I'm going at slows down and a certain clarity of where I've come from and where I'm going, but there's a sense that I'm able to move forward easier because I've left the past behind. Then there's a step three, reflecting on immediate problems and the example, because it was a different situation to the normal environment I'm in. I didn't need to reflect on the things of business, I could reflect on the things of God and it took primary place. And step number four, reflecting on priorities and the future and the example it's really about coming back to base all the time.

Valerie Ling: 25:45

I see a retreat as being a chance to get resented and to look at strategies for when you're back, to keep that more in place where it's fallen away over the past 12 months for this or that reason. And one of the comments from a retreat participant was I don't know why it's called retreat, why it's not called advance, because it's a moving forward. So do check out the downloads in the description of the podcast and you will actually be able to get Chelsea's full infographic and how to do a retreat based on her research. Now back to the podcast.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 26:29

But the first thing is the mind is cleared of cognitive clutter, of the noise. It's just you're breathing deeply, you're taken by the beauty around you and automatically things just go away from your, the front of your mind. That thing gives you the capacity to recover the ability to direct attention once again, but you've got a bit more control over it because you're feeling a bit more refreshed. So you can choose to focus attention on the most pressing demands or problems that you're facing. But you've got a clearer viewpoint because the noise has been shifted and that then eventually enables someone to reflect more deeply on the future and be more proactive in setting their priorities and realigning if they feel that they've been taken off course slightly because of needs or demands. So it's quite a natural thing. Your mind is cleared. You then can refocus attention on the things that are important and then that lets you focus more longer term again.

Valerie Ling: 27:32

Yeah. So I have a practice of going for a retreat every quarter. It's usually a three days, two nights type of thing. So I'm going to go through your recommendations and see how my retreat practice, whether I've given myself a restorative, have a retreat venue situated in a scenic, quiet, natural setting. I really, truly believe that that makes a difference. The times when I'm doing the hotel stays are not as restful for me as I've been in nature, and so I usually say do I want mountain or beach, like, which is the one I want but definitely, prior to the retreat, reflect on what they're expecting from the experience. So for me, every quarter is a wellbeing check-in, a check-in with how I'm doing spiritually, emotionally, and really just spend some time figuring out, sort of congratulating myself for anything that I'm feeling tanked up on, but being aware of what are some of my needs.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 28:32

Mm. That point around the compatibility. That comes out of the theoretical framework again and the reasoning behind it is that if someone can have an appropriate expectation and anticipate what they're likely to experience, it solidifies in a positive way the outcome. So if someone comes into a retreat, they're expecting it to be horrible. They don't want to be there. That's going to have an impact on how they're feeling and then affect the longer-term benefits.

Valerie Ling: 29:04

So if you Well, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense because it's like it's another attentional demand If you don't want to be there and you're so many things, other things you'd rather do. Whereas I find that my body craves, it knows that it's time for a pit, stop it Because I'm so used to the rhythm of it. I just find and just sleeping very well. I just that's probably one of my main aims catch up on sleep.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 29:29

That's great, you've got that proactive schedule in place.

Valerie Ling: 29:34

Encourage participants to disconnect from technology and work and responsibilities. Yes, so all stop for me. Usually have a book with me. Three hours of quiet time for relaxation and reflection yes, definitely, there's a tick. Build flexibility into the program. Oh, this is where, for me, it's like I just want to say I just say yes to the things. I want to say yes to no, it's the things I want to say yes, so I'm just sleeping in, Sometimes having a huge brunch and enjoying fruit or going for a walk yeah it's.

Valerie Ling: 30:06

I think it's just giving attention to non-responsible doing for others and just grounding yourself in what is the purpose of why we're here.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 30:18

And at retreat. Sometimes, or quite often actually, clergy would share with me that they felt like they had to turn up for breakfast at this time or attend the session or have this particular type of quiet time, but they wanted the flexibility and choice.

Valerie Ling: 30:34

Yeah.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 30:35

So I've turned that into a positive for the future. That's what we should be doing giving them that flexibility.

Valerie Ling: 30:40

Yeah, absolutely what do you? What? I don't know whether you have any insight on this from what you were doing, but what happens to people emotionally when their attention is, you know, when they have this restorative time or their reflective reflective?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 30:56

time. Sometimes it can be overwhelmingly sad or unexpected emotions may come to the surface. So it's not always a pleasant retreat experience and several people shared that. Look, it was not traumatic per se, but it wasn't comfortable. It wasn't happy at the time, I didn't enjoy it, but it was necessary. It was part of the process of stripping off the yucky stuff that had piled up and getting back to the basics and feeling re-centred, re-oriented, you know, with Christ back at the center rather than other things that have perhaps distracted them.

Valerie Ling: 31:32

Yeah, yeah, I know of some, some friends who have been on retreats where you know it was a time where everything just spilled out the grief, the loss came out. So it can also feel like a very uncontained space if you don't know where to go and I think that's where your emotions give you an indication, a signal, right and if you don't take time to retreat and reflect, you won't know what's been held up there. Hard to think of the well-being processes that I think are really important is that you do have someone to go to, someone to call someone to talk it through, someone to process that material once it comes up, not bury it all back in again and try to have a successful retreat.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 32:19

Yes, and if we're not looking after ourselves, as clergy, looking after themselves, how can they be at their best to help others just so constantly? They need to take time to self-care, and it's not a bad thing, it's not a selfish thing to do, it's a necessary thing.

Valerie Ling: 32:35

Yeah, and did you have a recommendation for the rhythm? How often?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 32:42

I would suggest at least annually, which is the norm for most organisations, for most denominations. But I think at a personal level, clergy can be proactive and take initiative to have more frequent restorative experiences and that could occur on a daily basis, a micro restorative experience. There's plenty of scientific literature that talks about the value of having a window with some nice views or some greenery or having a fresh plant in the office, just to you know, captivate your attention, even for five or 10 seconds. It does improve your attentional capacity. So, on a daily basis, being able to go for a walk or whatever it is that is compatible with someone's preferences, that's in nature or that connects them with nature, is a positive.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 33:33

Also, on a weekly basis, whether it's a formal Sabbath taking, if you like, or if it's less spiritual and just taking time out to be with friends or to do nothing, that's a real positive. So I think micro restorative experiences on a daily, a weekly, a monthly basis are good rhythms to get into. But then a longer term three, five, seven day annual retreat would be a good idea if possible, if the retreat is purposely designed and compatible with what the person is looking for, that they're not feeling forced, that they're not feeling uncomfortable with the format. I think that's crucial to distinguish between that. Having a retreat that the person hates, that they don't want to be there, that they strongly disagree with, that is not helpful.

Valerie Ling: 34:26

Now Chelsea, I'm having some memory of an email trail. Where did you say that you and your hubby actually offer retreats?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 34:34

We were a couple of years ago. This year we haven't, but we do hope to get back into that. It's something we're passionate about and it was not just for clergy, but we certainly had several clergy attend. I was starting to put these principles into practice and design those retreats, so if we might do that again.

Valerie Ling: 34:55

If anybody is looking for a way to structure a helpful reflective restorative retreat, do you have any suggestions as to where they might go for that?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 35:10

Not off the top of my head. I'm aware that there's different retreat centres that operate, but again, often that is dependent on a person's preferences for what they might prefer. There's a few different perspectives on whether a self-directed retreat is beneficial or whether a retreat that is directed by an experienced person who's got some reasons behind why they're doing it this way is a better option. It could be something to think through. I think there's certainly value in the self-directed retreats at times, but I think there is also value in having the corporate gathering, a small group 5, 10, 20 like-minded people, clergy in this context, where there may be a retreat facilitator who may or may not be providing a strong format and sessions, but there's still a purpose behind it and it's a social connection as well. I think there's value in that. So there's two streams of thought there. Is it self-directed or is it led by a retreat facilitator?

Valerie Ling: 36:21

Yeah, and I suspect maybe one is related to another. So if you have never done this before self-directed, you may not. You might be at a loss. You might want to attend something that's led and then have some exposure to that and figure out what are some of the things that really gave you the rest, and then you can put together some things for yourself.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 36:43

And to distinguish it from a holiday, an annual holiday different to an annual retreat. In my thoughts, yeah, absolutely so.

Valerie Ling: 36:58

if there was a minister listening in to us today, what's one thing you would love for them to take away from our chat today?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 37:07

Take time to engage in restorative experiences. Find out what nurtures you, not just that you feel good, but at a cognitive level. What helps you regain the capacity to think more clearly, to focus on things and to think longer term, not just immediately reacting to the situational demands. That's not a healthy state to stay in. What can you do to regain the fuller cognitive capacity to give you that broader, longer term perspective, which obviously then helps you be more affected in the day to day living?

Valerie Ling: 37:51

Yeah, and it's not just more caffeine.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 37:55

Certainly not.

Valerie Ling: 37:58

If there was a church that was listening to us, because some people have gotten their pastoral care committee subscribed to the podcast, or even parish council. What might you like them to consider for their ministry team?

Dr Chelsea Gill: 38:16

I would love to see more research done in this space. So if there are church groups or pastoral care committees, those kinds of cohorts that are interested in this space, I think it would be useful to connect, to collaborate, to dialogue and to learn from best practice, rather than all of us struggling and fumbling our way through and some things work, some things don't. Let's have a conversation, let's help each other, let's draw on the research, and sometimes I worry that in church zones we don't draw on best practice principles from academic literature, management research, scientific research. I'm not saying it's always wonderful that we should do that, but I think we need some more cross-pollination of that, because there is plenty of high quality, grounded research that gives us frameworks through which we can interpret reality and what's going on.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 39:16

Like this research that I've done, for example, it was empirically based, there was validated measures that I used. There was research methodology that I embarked on so that we could move beyond just the feelings and our own subjectivities and try to understand at a richer level what's going on, because then we can all learn from that and we can all benefit and we're the richer for it. So I'd love to see more collaboration, more connections, but more research being done in this space. Burnout well-being it's highly topical in the academic world right now for research and retreats are still the poor cousin. I think it will become more prominent in coming years as we all become more centred about well-being and HR officers. It's the new trend well-being focuses, but where's the empirical research? And it would be wonderful if, as a church at large, we can engage and partner with that space as well.

Valerie Ling: 40:20

Yeah, I'm having these really interesting thoughts. I don't mean to minimise what you said, but I think it is quite interesting to you know if we did actually take an interest in doing some surveys, sort of pre-mid post, we might find out some information that I said might also be unique to our particular context perhaps, or a church context. Feedback is always so important, I think.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 40:47

Absolutely, and I'm not sure that it's something we usually do well in a church, because it is quite sad.

Valerie Ling: 40:55

Why, bob Carson, I can say this yeah, I'm saying. Very well, I don't know that we know how to give feedback.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 41:01

Well, and let's celebrate what we do well, but let's have proper data and proper analysis to support our conclusions so that we are engaging our brain in that process and not just basing it all on feeling.

Valerie Ling: 41:18

Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much for your time, chelsea. I've really enjoyed chatting with you and I am looking forward to not only airing this episode but also putting the link to your information so helpful about what to consider when you're actually having a retreat. So thank you so much for chatting with me.

Dr Chelsea Gill: 41:36

Thank you, Valerie, and happy to chat with anyone who's interested in learning more about retreats. Thanks for your time.