The Science of John 10:10 With Dr Victor Counted

Dr. Victor Counted discusses the integration of positive psychology and Christian theology to understand and promote human flourishing from a faith-based perspective. Topics include Christian flourishing, spiritual maturity, attachment theory, and the importance of empirical research in faith 

Dr. Victor Counted is an Associate Professor of Psychology, Director of the Office of Research and Sponsored Programs at Regent University and the Lead for Abundant Life Flourishing Lab. Counted is a Faculty Affiliate of Harvard University’s Human Flourishing Program and a Fellow of the International Society for Science and Religion.  In this episode, Victor discusses the integration of positive psychology and Christian theology to understand and promote human flourishing from a faith-based perspective. Topics include Christian flourishing, spiritual maturity, attachment theory, and the importance of empirical research in faith communities.

 keywords

Christian flourishing, faith and psychology, spiritual maturity, attachment theory, research in faith communities, abundant life, psychological science, church growth, spiritual vitality


 key  topics

Christian flourishing framework
Relationship between faith and psychological well-being
Attachment theory and faith development


 guest  name

Dr. Victor Counted


Titles

The Science of Christian Flourishing: A New Framework
Bonding with God: Unlocking Spiritual Maturity


 sound bites

"Flourishing is a journey, not just outcomes."
"Love, passion, and commitment shape our faith."
"God is the ultimate attachment figure."


Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Guest Background
01:23 The Abundant Life Flourishing Initiative
02:28 Studying Christian Flourishing Scientifically
04:55 Developing a Framework for Christian Flourishing
07:43 Christian Flourishing vs. Spiritual Maturity
10:55 Relationship with Christ as the Foundation of Flourishing
15:38 The Role of Behavior in Faith and Flourishing
20:55 Love, Commitment, and Passion in Faith
25:57 Attachment Theory and Relationship with God
33:54 Moving from Attachment to Flourishing
44:38 Empirical Research and the Public Good
52:41 Rootedness and Resilience in Flourishing Life
55:46 Final Reflections and Encouragements


Links:

Global Flourishing Study - https://globalflourishing.org/
Bonding with God (Book) - https://www.amazon.com/Bonding-God-Dr-Victor-Counted
Abundant Life Flourishing Lab - https://regent.edu/research/abundant-life-flourishing
Harvard Human Flourishing Program - https://hfh.harvard.edu/


 guest links

Twitter - https://twitter.com/victorcounted
LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/victorcounted
Website - https://victorcounted.com

Podcast Disclaimer:

Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution.  This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Transcript

Valerie Ling (00:00)
Greetings friends. Today I have with me Dr. Victor Counted.

Victor is an Associate Professor of Psychology at Regent University School of Psychology and Counselling. And you are also the lead for the Abundant Life Flourishing Initiative. And you have a new book coming out called Bonding with God. When is that out, Victor?

Victor Counted (00:27)
Actually, it's about a moon's time, ⁓ April 7th, so that's roughly just about a moon from today, I think.

and just also wanted to mention it's a abundant life flourishing lab so it's a sort of my lab, ⁓ sort of a fusion of positive psychology and sort of you could say Christian theology just trying to bring both together and to study human flourishing from a Christian lens scientifically.

Valerie Ling (00:53)
⁓ Well, let's go there. Let's start there, Victor.

Can you say a bit more about what that's about, why you're doing that, what's your passion there?

Victor Counted (01:04)
So we sort of have an ambitious goal to study Christian flourishing ⁓ around the world. And one of the framework that we're using is drawn from John 10, 10, where Jesus talks about the abundant life. So we try to think about how to intersect human flourishing broadly as a scientific field, but also Christian flourishing to think about what does, how do we bring the two together?

Valerie Ling (01:09)
Move.

Victor Counted (01:29)
I'm sure you're familiar, so I had moved to the US from Sydney. So was at Western Sydney University where I was a lecturer, rather research fellow, but also teaching as well on campus. And I had to move to the US, you know.

I was on an assignment from God, God wanted me to be in this space at this time in my life and I felt called to move. It wasn't really an easy decision but thank God here we are. And so when I came to the US before then I was already part of the Human Fluoration Program at Harvard University as a faculty affiliate and I know that we're rolling out the Global Fluoration

which is set up a five-year longitudinal study to study human flourishing around the world. And so when that happened, when I came to the U.S., the first thing I did was to have a meeting with Tyler VanderVille, my friend, and we were talking about how I could start a lab at Regent, my university, where we study human flourishing, but model what they're already doing, study human flourishing, but from a Christian lens.

and

do some scientific work in that space because there's no lab.

doing something like that or an institution or a center of research that is dedicated to looking at Christian flourishing scientifically. You can find people that come in from, let's say, lens or maybe from a theological perspective. And so that was the niche and the gap that we wanted to address. So when I came in, we launched that ⁓ Abundant Life Flourishing. ⁓ Initially, we called it Abundant Life Flourishing Program. Now we've kind of removed the program and we're just

because that's really what it is. And we started with the goal to think about what flourishing might mean for Christian communities. And that effort led us to connecting with different leaders that are interested in this particular topic as we started having conversations around what would Christian flourishing mean. And that conversation ultimately led us to coming up with a framework

framework, an integrated framework that looks at Christian flourishing from a domain-based lens. And what that simply means is acknowledging that Christian flourishing is not one thing. It starts with individual Christians, but also it has to do with the congregation.

and also the community that the congregation and the individual Christian is a part of. And so it's sort of a cyclical framework or model that kind of intersects these three. And, you know, thankfully we were able to work on coming up with a measure for individual Christian flourishing at the individual domain. And we're working on something at the congregational domain, and also we have something as well at the community domain as well.

It's

been a joy just having to lead that project. And on the lab, I have my students that are part of that. And of course, they are mentoring as well. Most of them are doctor of clinical psychology students in the lab. And of course, we keep it open to anyone that wants to be a part of that. we've had

leading scholars and researchers in the field of psychology and other fields that are coming to talk about their work and we try to curate lectures on what abundant life would look like from different scientific lens. And it's been a joy just we're going into the third year now

So it's been a joy just seeing what God can do just by one say's yes, you know, so it's been a blessing, yeah.

Valerie Ling (05:15)
So Victor, is Christian flourishing the same as Christian maturity?

Victor Counted (05:19)
That's a good question. think you could say yes, but yes and no because Christian flourishing is essentially how an individual Christian's life is good or how aspects of the individual Christian life is good.

in relation to what they value. Now the Christian theology is an example of what they value and also the Christian context and theology in itself. Now we could use, I think,

flourishing as a language, a way to assess whether or not someone is growing spiritually, I think. But also it also comes back to what we understand as spiritual maturity, because spiritual maturity is not some sort of a metric that we have to complete. It's a journey, ultimately. And the way that I talk about that in my work is to talk about it relationally as a process.

that stats ultimately to I use the word mechanism to describe this and regardless of how

Let's say, for example, you're someone that's very hopeful, you're someone that have a relationship with God, you know. That relationship ultimately might, at some point, you might be exposed to certain things that might disrupt the nature of that relationship. And that second phase is important, but when you have that experience, a mature Christian ultimately is not someone that will succumb to the challenges that they have.

but rather someone that would rise up and turn to maybe an adaptive response that would help them to now translate those experiences.

to setting outcomes of flourishing. And one of the mistakes I think that a lot of people make, especially within the flourishing space, is that we oftentimes talk about flourishing as outcomes. So when we talk about flourishing, we focus on the ideals of flourishing. We talk about dimensions like people's happiness. We talk about meaning. We talk about health. We talk about character or relationships. Those are ideals of

of flourishing life, but ultimately we do know that flourishing is not necessarily a linear thing, you know, it's a journey, you know. And so within the Christian flourishing lens, maturity ultimately starts with that relationship with God, which, with Christ rather, which it's at the center of the flourishing Christian life. And that relationship with Christ in itself is what really becomes the foundation of our faith.

And that relationship is what makes us hopeful. It's what produces a fruit of love in us, right? And once we have those pillars, we're able to express those ideals and, you know, live out a life that is full of meaning, a life that is rich in character, you know, a life that is content. And so, in a way, you could say flourishing

could be spiritual maturity if we truly are anchored on the pillars that really make a flourishing life tick, if that makes sense.

Valerie Ling (08:17)
So if I'm a pastor listening to this podcast and I'm concerned about my congregation's spiritual growth, but I'm also concerned about things like whether the church is growing numerically, how could the understanding of Christian flourishing encourage me or maybe challenge some of the things that I might be thinking is what is the outcome, if you like, of a healthy church?

Victor Counted (08:39)
Yeah. We do know that when people are flourishing as individuals, I said, the individual Christian domain, that that naturally would translate to how the church is flourishing, the congregations are flourishing. And that also have a bigger impact on the society and the broader community.

So I think it's important to start with individual because that's where the real change starts ultimately. And that means as a leader, as a pastor, the first task I believe should be to raise Christians that are healthy, healthy Christians.

And what that does mean is making sure that they do grounded in some of those spiritual virtues, the theological virtues that I mentioned, love, faith, and hope. And once they have that naturally, the natural out shoot of that, it's a flourishing life. Once they have that relationship with Christ,

And some people also talk about this in different ways where they, for example, talk about the fruit of the Spirit. The discipleship that comes with having, becoming a Christian, because when we are Christians, when you give your life to Christ, that ought to lead you naturally to you becoming more like Christ.

And you becoming more like Christ, it's a result of the relationship that you have, you know, with Christ. Because the more you're drawn to Christ, the more you're becoming more like him, the more that you are mirroring and modeling after who he is. And that's what grows our faith. And when our faith becomes stronger and secure ultimately, and which is what I talk about in my book, Bonding with God,

That's a sense of hope that comes because you're not concerned with what's happening around you, but you know that you're secure on something much more greater and stronger than you are. And that hope that you have in Jesus ultimately transcends whatever that's happening and forces you. You can't help it. The natural out shoot of that is love.

And when a pastor have congregations that are grounded in those third things, it's natural that they would leave a flourishing life. They will be more content. And in our individual domain of Christian flourishing, we talk about the dimensions that should be captured in there. One of that is contentment, meaning health, character.

relationship, you could call it discipling relationship, and stewardship, you know. And these all happened, a Christian believer experiences all those things because they ultimately have this other pillars that I talk about. And once we have that, and imagine having a congregation where everybody have faith, hope, and love, which produces

the pillars of a flourishing, the outcomes of a flourishing life, that in itself is a flourishing congregation. And collectively, the impact that such a congregation can have in the broader community, it's, will be unprecedented, essentially.

Valerie Ling (11:50)
It's like an oasis in a desert. This world lacks a vision and an experience of love and hope and faith. And I think what I'm hearing you say is that when we embody that in our relationship in Christ, it's attractive. People come to that. But where does the place for behavior fit into that? So things like church attendance, frequency of Bible reading.

Victor Counted (12:11)
Hmm.

Valerie Ling (12:16)
attendance at things like Bible studies and fellowship. Where does that fit in?

Victor Counted (12:20)
Yeah, I think it comes back to... There two ways to talk about it. I guess it comes back to the virtues that I talked about. know, won't you, if you love Jesus...

you would want to the natural thing that happens when we love something. And it's funny because Thomas Aquinas kind of talks about love as the combination of all this other three theological virtues, that hope and fate can be found in love. So let me stay with love. And what does it mean to truly love a thing or someone? There's a framework in psychology that we use. We call it the

the love triangle. Essentially what it means is that when you love something, means that you have intimacy with that thing. It means that you have passion for that thing. It also means that you're committed to that thing.

And I think just merely just by applying that framework to, let's say we are people of faith and we love Jesus, because naturally if you have a relationship with Jesus, that's where a flourishing Christian life starts. If you have a relationship with Jesus, what that does ultimately is that it compels you to be more like Christ.

as an attitude of that relationship. Now again, we could go back to attachment and faith and talk about how that might be different for different people because there will be individual differences in terms of how we express our relationship with Christ. But the end point of that relationship, it's a transformation process that compels us to become, in my book I call it, people that I call it a caregiving faith.

on one hand recognizing God as our caregiver but also us doing the same for the world and people around us and reflecting as a way of modeling Christ. And what that simply means is just becoming someone that embodies love. Now because we love Christ, it means one, that we have intimate relationship with Him.

And that intimate relationship, some theologians have talked about it as communion, some will talk about it as fellowship. It could mean different things for different people. But intimacy is really key and very important in any relationship because what that does is it's what really stimulates us to want to get into the passion part of it. So most people have a relationship with God or with Christ.

but they don't have passion for Christ. And having a passion for God would compel you to show up in anything that represents Christ. It will compel you to want to represent God, or become a Kingdom Ambassador no matter where you are. know, like for example, the work that I do, I tell people this, it's more difficult to publish, for example,

a scientific paper, an academic paper with religion on it, then it is you taking away religion out of it. It's much more easier if I don't have religion or spirituality in any of my work because it will get, it won't be critiqued as much, it won't be, you But the passion that I have as a disciple of Jesus, as someone that loves Christ,

The passion that I have will compel me to ultimately go beyond just...

I myself as a researcher and as a Christian to the point where I'm integrating that because there's a passion that compels me to project Christ in whatever I do. But also you have the commitment part which is the more difficult part of that. Most people have intimacy, a relationship with Christ. Some can try to become passionate about it.

and passionate in the sense that they can, you know, want to do more for God, they want to represent his church, want to show up. But then when life difficulties throws its ugliest face, we don't want to commit to the very things that we believe in. And that's really where the difficulty is for most people. The lack of capacity to commit to following Christ and

what it means to be a follower of Jesus, or becoming someone that have this peelers that I talk about, is the fact that you're committed to the things in Christian language, to the things of the kingdom, you know. So that's what will compel you to show up, you know. And I could talk about that in a way where I could talk about live stresses as one of those things that could disrupt ⁓

Valerie Ling (16:38)
Mm-hmm.

Victor Counted (16:39)
capacity

to want to commit or truly love. I think love is a key word here because if we're not loving it could be because there are life experiences that is really...

disrupting our capacity to become people that are committed to the thing that we love, to the object of our love, which in this case would be Christ. Even though we might have passion, but we're not committed. And you find most people like that in any relationship. They can have the intimacy, but they don't have the passion.

Valerie Ling (16:54)
Mm.

Victor Counted (17:13)
or they can have the passion but they don't have the commitment and you find that which is why a lot of relationships break down because you can find people when they start up the passion is really there but the commitment level to keep going and keep showing up is not there you know and so I think this could be part of the reason why most people may not truly be committed to the things like you mentioned church activities and

But we should always remember the word of Christ that we should seek first the kingdom, you know, and when we do that every other thing will be added. Every other thing being whether it's the promise of an abundant life. But seeking first the kingdom requires a change of mindset which could, you could argue, could be an adaptive response that in spite of things not going the way you

Valerie Ling (18:01)
Thank

Mm.

Mm.

Victor Counted (18:07)
wanted to go, you're still taking an adaptive approach and to really still stay committed to the very thing that your ankle done.

Valerie Ling (18:18)
With respect to capacity, ⁓ I actually do have a similar hypothesis. I've often wondered whether because we know exhaustion in society, loneliness, exhaustion, fear, anxiety, all of these things are encratching on people, that that walks into the church as well. And so when you're thinking of

Victor Counted (18:20)
Hmm.

Mm.

Valerie Ling (18:39)
paying an expression to your commitment to Christ, your capacity though, in terms of what's really happening in your world is also real. How does that factor then, do we simply say too bad, pull up your socks and just keep going? What are your thoughts there?

Victor Counted (18:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

many people do, I guess many of us, do struggle with cognitive load and...

Valerie Ling (19:01)
Mmm.

Victor Counted (19:02)
I have to come to this interview with having a lot going on, know, moving houses, having a crying baby. I had to like run out of the house to get to my office, you know, and also all that is happening internationally, internationally. And when you factor all those things in together, there's a tendency to have a cognitive overload and just, you know, and also it doesn't help also with social media as well, which kind of compounds the

the effect of the cognitive overload that we carry each day. In my work I talk about these things as the struggles or the disruptors of our connection with God. So in the attachment to God literature where God is oftentimes talked about as an attachment figure

And one of the things that is, at least a number of research that supports that, indeed, that early years experiences that we have do shape how we relate to God. However, even though most of us might have a relationship with God, it's also important that we acknowledge that sometimes, even though we have those relationships, we can be exposed to things.

that can disrupt those relationships. And it's interesting because you asked about spiritual maturity earlier. Spiritual maturity is also recognizing that I have this relationship, but it's very much, it can be predisposed to...

what we call attachment disruption experiences. Experiences that really threaten our connection. And in this case, it could be experiences that threaten our relationship with God. And so, I talk about those experiences as in psychotic religion, we call it spiritual struggles. One of them could be existential struggles.

Valerie Ling (20:36)
Okay.

Victor Counted (20:48)
One of them could also be struggles around mattering, mattering like people's sense of worth. And the other could also be struggling around meaning, you know. And all these things are real things. That from time to time we are kind of exposed to this cognitive shattering.

Valerie Ling (20:52)
Mm. Mm.

Victor Counted (21:10)
nuances and experiences and messages and stimuli that really confront us. And as a result of that, most people respond because of that. And the natural response, for example, when you are exposed to attachment-destructive experiences would be to, you want to push back at that, right? You want to either protest.

because the cognitive old-volute, for example, could be, might be impacting how you maybe now see God, you know, how you see a relationship with God. And as a result of that, you might want to respond in a way that normally you wouldn't want to respond to. The second part of that is the much more interesting part, which is despair. Despair is what happens when people feel like they've lost that connection with God.

Now, the third phase is detachment. Detachment is an opportunity to really find a way to either see God differently this time or find God for yourself away from the way you normally see him. And so it's important to recognize some of the psychological disturbances or life stressors or things that really disturb our relationship, whether it includes

the fact that there are some times when we might come to the point where we're cognitively not really in the space to take on too much and recognize that and seek help if we have to, guess. But most importantly, being sensitive and aware. There are things around us, which is why the Bible talks about God in our mind. There are things around us that might actually impact

the way that we see ourselves, the way that we see God, you know, and all that in, you know, do shape the nature of our fate, you know, and sometimes maybe might, you know, hinder us from really flourishing the way we should flourish.

Valerie Ling (22:55)
Mm.

Mm.

for someone who hasn't had any exposure to psychological theory, what is attachment and what is attachment theory?

Victor Counted (23:09)
Yeah.

attachment is something that is grounded in healthy relationships. In fact, some of our studies from the Global Flourishing Study, we looked at a lot of the childhood predictors of

⁓ flourishing and healthy parental relationship. It's one of the strongest predictor of that.

And so relationship is very important. So attachment, it's like another way in psychology, we use that as a way of talking about relationship. It's a framework of relationship. In other words, it means that the way that we are raised, the way that we grow up, it's sort of mirrored. We model the way that we experience our early caregivers in our future relationship or in our social relationship. And also that also includes in our relationship with

people

that are exposed to, that have held a relationship can also model the same when they grow up by turning to God as well as a caregiver in that sense. Those that have really negative relationship experiences growing up may potentially develop insecure attachment patterns and when they grow up potentially they might turn to God to compensate for relationship they don't have. And so this is sort of the two

pathways, the mental pathways that are used in Psychological Religion to talk about how people form their attachment to God. And there are number of studies that show good evidence to support this.

in order to have a structure for our relationship, what we call internal working models and attachment, we have to have the early experiences with our early caregivers, our parents or people in our lives that raised us. Those are the people that help us to develop the initial cognitive framework of what a relationship is.

Valerie Ling (24:59)
Mm.

Victor Counted (24:59)
And that really translates to how we see God, how we experience our faith, how we almost everything. Relationship is one of the dimensions of a flourishing life. But also it's very much central to and very much determines whether or not we would flourish or whether we would struggle. People that experience attachment abuse or betrayal as kids or so grow up struggling.

For example, if the person has an avoidant attachment as a result of that, that will show up in their relationship with God. Because if God is not showing up and answering their prayers and really attending to their needs as they want to, they would most likely like want to stay away. Maybe that might mean that they might stop coming to church.

Valerie Ling (25:32)
you

Victor Counted (25:44)
However, someone that have an anxious attachment that might be very clinging would most likely have a different approach. They will cling on to God in a neurotic way. And sometimes we might call that this person is being faithful, but it could be a trauma of attachment. That it's really impacting the way they relate. And the point is, there's usually a problem when we come to God from a place of insecurity.

And the journey of faith, or rather what a floating life the fact that God is able to move from that point. And this is what a journey of faith is all about, to the point where we come to a place in our life where he has not only healed our attachment and insecurities, but we really understand who God is. That he would always be there, regardless of the...

the baggage that we come into the relationship with

Valerie Ling (26:35)
I

I have a dear friend and she has been a very important person in my life for three years. Every month she meets me and she prays and she reads the Bible with me. I invited her to be in a relationship with me. She doesn't live in the same state as me because a couple of years ago as a family we went through a really hard traumatic experience.

Victor Counted (26:41)
Mm.

Valerie Ling (26:55)
And I knew of myself that what would happen is I would avoid, you know, decisions, anything that would bring me close back to that wounding. I choose to go another way, you know, to the point that the leadership project that I was on, I said, that's it. I'm not doing it anymore. I'm going to do something else. So, you know, for the past three years, even though she's not a psychologist, she's actually been just working with me to turn me back, turn me back. ⁓

And this year, it's very funny because I can laugh at it now, but you know, I could tell I was doing this. I started to stop replying to her messages, not just her messages, but you know, my friends messages. And I just went into this silent dome and she persisted with me, Victor. And when she finally got me on the telephone, she said, Valerie, why do you do this?

You know, why do you turn away? You know, previously we were working with turning back to God. you know, like, ah, I don't want to go to church. I don't want to read my Bible. I don't want to pray. But this time she really challenged me to why was I turning away from my friends? The representation of God himself on this earth, Valerie, why do you do this? And I just thought, is this not a gift to me?

to have someone who loves me point back that I am doing something that will actually remove me from the very thing that I need. And to me, I think that's a practical story of what you've just talked about, that for whatever reasons in our family history and our patterns, we can respond not only to God, but his people in a way that takes us away from that flourish, that well of flourishing.

Victor Counted (28:35)
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting that you say that, is the fact that for most people starting,

habit or patterns like having a void into attachment. It's also a protective mechanism for most people. It's a coping mechanism. And it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's important. It's great that you're recognizing that. And also some things that we do even in the church, the way we carry ourself in the church, if you start to pay close attention, which is why I think psychologists are really very powerful, you find that most of that is tied back to sad.

you know, you trauma or experiences that we've had or attachment patterns that sometimes we bring in and not knowing that it's shaping the way we even function and carry ourselves within the community of God. And it's interesting, isn't it beautiful that God sometimes will send us people that, and that's really what love is really, that in spite of us, that will keep, you know,

want to see the best in us. that's the beautiful thing about God. He sometimes sends us people to nod just and challenge us to do what he wants us to do, regardless of how we feel about things. Thank you for sharing that. That's actually a very great example.

Valerie Ling (29:52)
So you are involved now as part of the abundant flourishing lab. think I've got this correct that you have a. ⁓ so sorry. Abundant life flourishing lab. Is that where the pilot now that you've got going, Christian flourishing pilot is situated, Victor?

Victor Counted (29:58)
on the life flourishing. I know it's kind of a lot of words. Yeah.

Yeah, so it's, would say two spaces. So we started the lab in 2023 and the goal was to study Christian flourishing and to understand what flourishing means across Christian communities, in Christian communities. And that effort in itself led to collaboration. One of the products that came out of that was our Flourishing Under Church project. It's a joint project with Harvard and Baylor University and my lab and the goal

what we're trying to do with that was to really study, think about what does a flourishing church look like? When we talk about flourishing under church, what does that mean? And we used the framework, the individual, congregational, and community framework to kind of capture that story and narrative. And we started the project, thankfully we got some funding ⁓ from a generous

family to do a pilot study of

a pilot study here in the US. And so we are looking at collecting data from churches in San Francisco and San Antonio. So it's like two different, demographically different places just to get a sense of how churches are flourishing. And what we're essentially doing is to use, for example, compare and contrast our individual domains, individual dimensions of Christian flourishing and the Secure Flourishing Index, the tile of

Valerie Ling (31:19)
Hmm

Victor Counted (31:36)
of your head develop to compare what is happening at the individual domain to look at what is happening across these congregations. In fact, some of the interesting things that we are finding is that some congregations, for example, might score very high on financial stability, which is a dimension that shows that the person is doing well financially, they very stable. However, in the stewardship dimension in the Christian Coalition Index, you find that they are scoring low on that, which means the natural interpretation

for that particular result would be that well, most of the people, are financially stable, but they're not good stewards of what.

the finances that God has blessed them with. And the place that we're looking at finding some contrast would be around happiness and contentment. Because for a Christian, the goal is not really to be happy. The goal is not to be happy, even though that's more of a positive language coming from popular culture. Happiness should be the goal, but that's not the goal within the Christian language. However, would you know

Valerie Ling (32:22)
I don't know. Yeah.

Victor Counted (32:39)
that if you are living a life of contentment which comes because you are securing your relationship with God and you are filled due to that, if you live a life of contentment, the natural byproduct of that is that you'll be happy because you have peace and joy.

So we're collecting the data from all those churches and we're seeing a lot of disparity, you know, and it's funny because some of the churches that were financially, you know, viable and well and stable, most of the congregations where you find those kind of churches, those kind of members that are financially stable, we see a pattern where they are struggling, you know, compared to those that may not be that financially stable. see that, you know, so that's a whole

lot there. it's, some of the findings at least is consistent with what we are seeing with the global flourishing study in itself, where, for example, low-income countries actually were doing well when it came to meaning and ⁓ purpose and character, you know, compared to, you know, countries that had a better GDP, you know. So it's kind of interesting how the data itself mirror each other. But in a very

Distractively distant way that require careful attention But we plan on having like about two to three papers sometime this year coming out of that study because we'll finalize the project around June so the last survey will be around June and after that hopefully we get into writing the results and sharing that with the world later

Valerie Ling (34:14)
Why does this matter? ⁓ And I don't mean to dismiss it, but I was having a conversation with somebody this week and we were talking about how do you put a biblical understanding to the things that we do? Why does this matter? I suppose for you as a Christian, we've talked a lot about

Victor Counted (34:18)
Yeah.

Valerie Ling (34:34)
because you know the flourishing life is what God intends for us. It is a reflection and a representation of his love and his relationship with us and that to some extent is the wonderful thing about being in Christ. But why should it matter to us to the point that you set up a lab, the point that you you're doing these studies and you're trying to share it with the world? What's as a Christian, why is that important to you?

Victor Counted (34:59)
I could say as a Christian, as a researcher, you know, let me start as a Christian. think over time,

something I'm learning being a Christian who is just a pastor and also a psychological scientist, a researcher and all that. I see how we don't quantify what we are doing, how that has been very much have given

the world reasons to criticize the church to the point where even the good that the church is doing

Valerie Ling (35:28)
Mmm.

Victor Counted (35:31)
The government is not, the government's not seeing that. People are not seeing that. To show that what merely just attendant religious services every other week, it's a public good. It has public health implications. And the only way that we can show that is to quantify what we're doing to show that this really matters. It has huge health implications.

Valerie Ling (35:35)
you

Victor Counted (35:52)
But theologically also, I think this is part of the Great Commission. The Bible says, Jesus said, we should go to the end of the earth. You could interpret that as just meaning geographical earth, or maybe it mean every space or field of life where people exist. And I like to see research as

opportunity for witnessing and an opportunity for expanding this very mission of Christ.

And why this is important is the fact that if we're able to study some of the things that we do in the church, not the practices and what we believe, why it matters, it can help us articulate and that, and especially communicate that to the next generation or the younger generation that these things really, really matter. Scientifically.

I think it's always important to measure some things. Like I think it's Galileo that talked about science as being synonymous to measurement. And this is where theologians and scientists kind of split. For theologians, they would argue, for example, and we're finding that more and more that you can't really measure a bounded life. You can't really measure what it means to flourish as a Christian.

But then if we can't measure that, how can people even know that they're doing okay, that they're flourishing? And so it becomes important to develop tools that would help people to either self-assess their journey or to really see where they might be doing okay. We're not saying the tool is perfect, but at least it gives us a starting point. It provides a real estate from which we can have these conversations, you know.

I think two or three years ago I was in Croningen where my friend Joseph Babila, is at Wellington University, Victoria Wellington University, or Wellington University of Victoria. He's a well-known cognitive scientist who is interested in religion. And in his presentation he talks about the equivalent of, so he,

himself and some of his team, they've been collecting survey. It's called Religious and Values Survey in New Zealand for the past like 20 years or so. And so he was trying to quantify the economic benefit of religious values, you know, and it's interesting, you know, he calculated in a year, it's like a billion dollar.

Valerie Ling (38:09)
Okay.

Victor Counted (38:24)
It saves us billions of dollars. And that was very funny because it was a way to put some kind of material value to a spiritual thing. But I think it does matter for us to study these things. It does matter for us to develop tools that can help.

Valerie Ling (38:36)
Yeah.

Victor Counted (38:45)
researchers or scientists to kind of assess these things, it doesn't matter to put value to what we're doing. Theology is great, but I think theology is better when you can quantify what has been said, you know. And it helps us to really show evidence, empirical evidence that look, what we've been teaching for centuries, it's not just flu.

Valerie Ling (39:10)
Thank

Victor Counted (39:11)
It's, you know, God knew about all those things even before now. And what we're doing is just to find a way to present it to the world and hopefully that will be a gift to the church. And it's funny because most of my team members on this project, even the floor should under church, all of us are either directly or indirectly tied to the church. For example, Kate, her dad was a pastor.

literally almost everybody connected to the project. It's one or the other connected to the church. And it's just because we're passionate. We want to see the church being restored. We want to see the church flourish. We want to see the church do well. We want to see spiritual vitality in our congregations. And the best thing that we could do is to use the gift that God has given us to ⁓ bless the church.

Valerie Ling (39:56)
Mm.

Victor Counted (39:59)
⁓ And that's what hopefully we're doing.

Valerie Ling (40:01)
Thank you so much, Victor. Let's just finish on one message you'd like to share with God's people about the abundant flourishing life in Christ. What's one thing you'd want to encourage them with from everything that you said today?

Victor Counted (40:16)
Mmm.

I guess it's interesting because when you think about the promise of abundant life in John 10, 10, sometimes we forget the context of that promise. Jesus promised this life of abundance in the context of scarcity and lack and oppression and you could call it political pluralization as we have it today.

Valerie Ling (40:28)
Mmm.

Victor Counted (40:43)
And yet in spite of that, in the midst of that, he promised a life of abundance to God's people. Now, I think sometimes we get carried away with what's happening in the world and what's happening around us. And we forget that we've been given this promise.

that the fact that things might not be working the way we want it, the fact that maybe we might be in a season of disturbance or disruption, it might look like we're not flourishing, we're not doing well. But flourishing, it's not about the outcomes, know? Outcomes are great, but that's really not really what makes flourishing life stand out.

What makes a flourishing life stand out is because it's a life that's gone through process. And those outcomes becomes evidence that it's not just standing on nothing. It's coming from something. It's well-rooted. It's well-grounded. And regardless of what's happening, that kind of life cannot be shaken because it's rooted on

Valerie Ling (41:33)
That's

me.

Victor Counted (41:46)
on something greater than themselves. And so I'm hoping that anyone might be listening that might be going through a season of difficulty might think, well, I'm probably languishing. This is not flourishing. Maybe that's the journey. Because the question is, what are we doing with that pain? What are we doing with that season of scarcity?

deficiency even with churches for example that might be losing their congregation. What is God telling us about this season? The other day I had a conversation with a church from I think in Germany. We're talking about flourishing churches and ⁓ they asked me what then does it mean to flourish in most of the churches in

in Europe are shrinking and I'm like maybe there's something that God might be telling us about this season. And ultimately all of those things hopefully it's gonna work out for good in the end.

Valerie Ling (42:35)
Mmm.

Victor Counted (42:42)
I think it's, know, in fact, the way I see it, it's like talking about the fig tree. It's easy to blame the fig tree that Jesus caused for not bearing fruit.

But it's possible that I didn't bear fruit because of a number of reasons. It was planted in the wrong soil. didn't go through the proper methods. There are a number of things. We don't know. But ultimately, I believe that whatever season that we go through, it's for good. Something good will come out of that so we can build pillars.

of a flourishing life, become grounded in our fate, become people that become very hopeful, have a strong sense of hope, and most importantly become people that can pour our love because we know what it means to be the other, know, what it means to not probably, you know, have the growth that we want. And all those things are things that make us to become the kind of people that have the disposition for an abundant life.

Valerie Ling (43:41)
thank you so much, Victor. ⁓ I enjoy your integration. think you bring an integrated voice. And one of the things as I was thinking about how I wanted to introduce you, and maybe I would love to finish with this is, for me, you've really normalized thinking well, honestly, in your social media posts, in your books.

Victor Counted (43:58)
Hmm.

Valerie Ling (44:02)
I'm going to link a lot of your links, I think. ⁓

I think you model and you normalise that even in such a hard time as what you're going through in the US at the moment, you've thought things through well. And by well, I don't mean cleverly. I mean deeply coming back to an anchor and a route for where your thoughts can then ground in Christ and then flourish and blossom and bless people like me. So I really thank you for spending time with me today.

Victor Counted (44:18)
Mm.

It's been a joy and thank you for having me and having the opportunity to talk about what it means to live well. think it's important, especially for such a time as this.