From tales of bow hunting in New Zealand's captivating wilderness and smashing goals in state forests to the meticulous packing of a backpack for the next adventure, we aim to capture the heart of nature with every step, every shot, and every story shared. So, lace up your boots and tune in for an episode filled with raw emotion, laughter, and a shared love for the great outdoors with Dave Burgess from DTB Adventures. He brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the table, sparking a conversation that's as much about family as it is about the thrill of the hunt.
In the depths of the forest, we find ourselves at the intersection of wildlife conservation and the hunter's ethos, discussing the balance struck by systems like lotteries for tag distribution and the role of the Department of Primary Industries during the pandemic. From the Australian landscape's unique challenges to the novel idea of an app to distinguish deer species, our exchange is a mosaic of stories, strategies, and tips for both seasoned hunters and those new to the art.
We wrap up with a journey through the ethics of harvesting and butchering, where I share my personal evolution towards a profound respect for the meat and the animal it comes from.
For the latest information, news, giveaways and anything mentioned on the show head over to our Facebook, Instagram or website.
If you have a question, comment, topic, gear review suggestion or a guest that you'd like to hear on the show, shoot an email to accuratehunts@gmail.com or via our socials.
From tales of bow hunting in New Zealand's captivating wilderness and smashing goals in state forests to the meticulous packing of a backpack for the next adventure, we aim to capture the heart of nature with every step, every shot, and every story shared. So, lace up your boots and tune in for an episode filled with raw emotion, laughter, and a shared love for the great outdoors with Dave Burgess from DTB Adventures. He brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the table, sparking a conversation that's as much about family as it is about the thrill of the hunt.
In the depths of the forest, we find ourselves at the intersection of wildlife conservation and the hunter's ethos, discussing the balance struck by systems like lotteries for tag distribution and the role of the Department of Primary Industries during the pandemic. From the Australian landscape's unique challenges to the novel idea of an app to distinguish deer species, our exchange is a mosaic of stories, strategies, and tips for both seasoned hunters and those new to the art.
We wrap up with a journey through the ethics of harvesting and butchering, where I share my personal evolution towards a profound respect for the meat and the animal it comes from.
For the latest information, news, giveaways and anything mentioned on the show head over to our Facebook, Instagram or website.
If you have a question, comment, topic, gear review suggestion or a guest that you'd like to hear on the show, shoot an email to accuratehunts@gmail.com or via our socials.
On the ninth episode of Acura Hunts.
Speaker 2:Without. I mean back in Victoria, back in the day, you didn't know how many hunters were out there in a forest. You know there could have been 15, 20 in a small forest and I remember there being a few accidents back then and I missed this tiny little branch. That was about five metres in front of the bow and as I sent the arrow and I've got it on film, you can see it hit the branch, this tiny little twig, and it sent the arrow two meters off.
Speaker 1:I want to challenge you to my favorite meal, which is also neko, which it's you take the whole neck from just in front of the shoulders so you cut it straight either with an axe or with a saw, or just cut the whole neck off and then cut it off at the back of the skull and take the whole neck home and then cut it into like two inch stakes, basically with the bone in it. Welcome back, accurate hunts, a life outdoors. I have have Dave with us from DTB Adventures. Hi, mate, welcome, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm going. Okay, Great to be here.
Speaker 1:Great to be here too. I'm enjoying some little silence in here. We had our baby the other day and it's a little bit noisy on the other side of those walls sometimes during the day, so it's nice to have a bit of peace and quiet.
Speaker 1:Excellent, excellent sometimes during the day, so it's nice to have a bit of peace and quiet. Excellent, excellent. But everyone's doing well at home and got a little boy, so another little hunter added to the family, unfortunately. If they like it or not, we'll find so lots, lots of rest at the moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lots of rest. Um, I call it work, but that's my rest getting out of the house and going and doing something else. But uh, had a week off and spent some time at home. And just a little tip for hunters too don't do what I did and get cold in winter, because now I have a rut baby, which, although I love having babies and it's beautiful and they're great I'm missing this rut because I am at home helping out as you do as a parent, and you, dave, are about to go on an adventure yes, yes, and unlike you, I actually don't have kids, which means I'm going to be carrying out my meat by myself for the next 30, 40 years, without help yeah, opening gates too and all sorts of.
Speaker 2:There's lots of benefits to having children yeah, but yeah, a couple adventures coming up which are leading into the rut, so pretty excited about that.
Speaker 1:We'll rip into what's coming up, but I wanted to ask you I don't think you've been hunting that long. Is that right? Am I right in saying that?
Speaker 2:When I say long.
Speaker 1:I mean give us a timeframe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look in this current reiteration, probably four years, right. So just after COVID I got back into it. But I grew up hunting back in the 90s, in my early 20s, and then all through my childhood with dad rabbits, foxes, things like that. So hunting's always been on and off. But I ended up moving to Lord Howe Island for a few years and let the license expire and it wasn't until I got back to Sydney that COVID hit, had nothing to do. So I sort of got my license again, got the guns transferred back from dad's name back into mine and, yeah, got stuck straight back into it.
Speaker 1:Would. Would you say that that growing up period was a time of shooting more so than hunting rabbits and things like that?
Speaker 2:look, probably, yeah, we, a lot of our family had dairy farms so you know a lot of it was just walking the open paddocks, you know rabbit shooting and all that. We just do a lot of trapping back then as well. So I mean, there was, you know, there was a very strong connection with with nature and tracking and things like that. But yeah, there wasn't so much the detailed hunting that you know most of us are doing now, was there money in the trapping?
Speaker 1:were you guys doing it for skins or meat?
Speaker 2:No, just just for fun and for meat for ourselves. So dad had always grown up doing it with his father, so it was kind of a bit of a family tradition that was we. Just we kept it going until the dairy farms got sold and of course then we sort of moved into, tried to move into Samba hunting. But in the nineties you only had one book as a resource and ex-army surplus clothing, so we weren't that successful. We got honked a couple of times but that was it. We were fly fishermen, so it was only sort of a passing hobby back then. What was the?
Speaker 1:one book of reference.
Speaker 2:Walking the Mud? Ken Pearce, I believe it is, but back then that was so hard to get that one of us had a copy, and so we'd each keep it for two months and then we'd pass it from one person to the next to then read it. So it was. It was a pretty beaten up copy, but yeah, that's all we had.
Speaker 1:There was nothing else that we could find it's interesting time pre-facebook, pre-google, pre-phones and yeah, I don't want to say better, but I kind of feel it it might have been in a lot of ways, but then also restrictive in you just said then access to information.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean everything was so analogue, like you'd actually sit there with your paper map. So I used to get a paper map and get the contour lines and cut little sections of wood on a scroll saw and then make a 3D model of the mountain range and then fill it in with putty. And then when I'd go to the spot, like I mean, if ends of maps you just throw pins on but back then it was actually a, it was a 3d map that I had in my room that I'd physically stick pins in this 3d map when I'd find wallows, or so yeah, very, very different.
Speaker 1:That's an incredible difference to what most people are running a little gps and dropping pins and here you are in your bedroom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's getting back into hunting now, like I just I couldn't believe the change. Like I mean the, the navigational systems, you know, venza mapping and all that which was, you know, basically a free service. Um, and even the way the dpi run it up here in new south wales, like it just made things so much more convenient. But the animals hadn't changed that was still, that always been so what's your experience being with the r license itself?
Speaker 1:and like, I don't mean the hunting part, but I mean r license booking systems, um, forest access, interaction with you know dpi and forestry while you've?
Speaker 2:been. Yeah, um, look, I'll be honest, I'm probably gonna get crucified for this, but I love it. I think it's a great system. Um, I mean, I got mine during covid. I got the gun license and the r license, did all that, did the course online, got my R licence, booked my forest as soon as COVID finished, sort of had a forest, went out there. When I've had to contact the DPI, they've been great. So I think it's a great system and I think it's a really fair system as well. So it gives everyone the opportunity to get out there. They're in a forest. There could have been 15, 20 in a small forest and I remember there being a few accidents back then, but at least now there's one forest I've got coming up soon and there's only two of us allowed in it, so it's like well, I'd say that because now everyone knows which one it is.
Speaker 2:Well, look, it's a ballot system anyway. So you know, I was lucky enough to get a ballot draw for this one. Maragal, maragal.
Speaker 1:South. Yeah, I can't remember where my dates were, but I do Seymour's section and I did not even ask the wife. I just politely declined and sent a hard email saying I'm sorry I can't make it, which hurt because I know what that means. To draw that, but it wasn't worth asking the question this close to having a baby.
Speaker 2:I think that's a pretty strong cosmic credit. You burnt yourself there. I hope so.
Speaker 1:I talk about. I mean, like you said, you don't have kids, but I talk about booking four or five trips with the wife, knowing that I really only want to go on two of them. So, like I'll say, I'll give up that one and I'll give up that one knowing that they didn't actually exist.
Speaker 1:They were just they always exist, but they're not always really important ones. You talk about everyone having a chance and using the ballot system. You think that's, we said, fair, so I'm going to assume your answer. But you think that's a really fair way to ballot up the I don't want to say peak forests, but the ones that are overly productive, and I'll give you a second question to follow up. Do you think it could be applied, or should be applied, to more forests?
Speaker 2:I don't know the answer to that one. I mean with this particular forest, marigold South, like it's extremely popular and there seems to be a lot of deer in there. So I mean recently, what was it in America? They've just cancelled the auction system for one of their forests. Which state was it? I only read it just today They've gone from an auction system now to a ballot system, because what they're saying is you now have a one in 1.5 million chance of drawing it, whereas the tags for these I think it was one of the Rams or something drawing it, whereas the tags for these, I think it was one of the rams or something we're going for. Like you know, half a million dollars for an auction tag which puts it out of you know the realm of almost everyone. So I mean with the maragall south, you just you put your number in, you see what happens. And it's only the second year that I've put in for it and.
Speaker 2:I managed to draw this year, so it's just pure chance. But I think for those, for us, it's pretty fair.
Speaker 1:With the American tag ballot ticket style system and the upper end of those auctions. I've been to one of those auctions and it becomes a bit of a pissing contest between the rich boys in the room and it's I don't want to say a slam dunk, but I don't know of anyone that's bought an expensive tag and not shot an animal because you kind of assume you're going to after spending half a million or a million dollars.
Speaker 1:But the plus side is those boys have the money and that money goes back to conservation, whereas in a ballot system.
Speaker 1:That's true we're just entering our number from our license. That costs 325 for five years. But how much of that money is going back into? And so it's a tricky one. Africa comes up a bit in this as well, when, like, a rhino will be auctioned off for $500,000 and then people complain but that $500,000, $400,000 of it goes to saving the other 1,000 rhinos in that area. So there's pros and cons to the big money side of it.
Speaker 2:I guess I mean Australia's in such a unique position because you know all the animals we hunt. They're actually introduced, you know they're not native, they're not, you know, as such a resource that needs to be so protected so fiercely. So you know well, okay, miragl south only has two people allowed in it for four days at a time, for however long the period is. But book yourself any other forest, I mean, they've all got deer, they've all got animals. Just look at another one and go for a walk, like you'll have, you know, as big a chance, as much of a chance of success, which I think is that's what's great about. You know, especially in new south wales, the hunting here have you spent much time looking at the harvest returns?
Speaker 1:Is that something you used?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I started, I was obsessing over them to the point where I actually had spreadsheets set up.
Speaker 1:I'm not a state forest hunter. I'll tell you my first return I did. I think the people in the office would have been man. This guy is a serious hunter because what I put down was not a harvest return. I put down a what I saw return. I just like, yep, saw that, saw that, saw that, saw that and I thought I killed everything.
Speaker 1:Which I think is the way it used to be up until recently and it used to be species specific, but then they just changed it now to deer. Well, actually I'm not sure about the harvest return part, but what they publish is deer was shot in nundle. It doesn't say how many over a monthly period, it just says deer was shot. And I think they had to remove the species thing and for a mixture of reasons.
Speaker 2:But some people were saying they saw hog deer in nundle or you know they, they saw yeah, chittle in oberon or just a mixture of misidentification and maybe messing around with the system, but then they removed the species from it and now it's just a little bit generic, but and I think, to be honest, I kind of like the fact that the harvest returns only have that there's deer there, because you know, if you're a deer hunter, you know you know there's been deer that's shot there. But as to what it is, that's part of the fun, that's the challenge, yeah, actually going out there and exploring and discovering it for yourself, rather than just getting it all handed to you and okay, well, you know there's that species of deer and it sits there and I'll go there at this time and you know I've got a good chance of getting it. Um, I mean one of the forests I was looking at last year. I spent 10 months walking around it and I physically didn't see a deer until the last day of the hunt after 10 months.
Speaker 1:So I had them on cameras.
Speaker 2:But you know, it's interesting, it's that. I don't know, I still like going out and doing all that work and finding it with just a little bit of information to give you hope, Right?
Speaker 1:So yeah, I think the.
Speaker 2:Harvester returns are good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're using your Harvest returns. What about? And you're saying you're using topographical maps? What's your mapping system? Are you running handheld GPS or you run your phone?
Speaker 2:So I just run Avenza through my phone, but with a subscription. But I also use Google Earth extensively before I go. So I'll do all my e-wrecking for lack of a better word on Google Earth and then map out all my hardwoods, my clearings, my likely feed galleys, you know, possible areas of transit. All of that using the little shaded box that you can create on Google Earth and then transferring that file to Avenza and it downloads everything that you've done on Google Earth onto Avenza. Then when you're out there you can look. Avenza only gives you that. It doesn't give you a detailed photo map. It only gives you that. Let's see, I'm 15 metres from that clearing. I'm coming to the pines now, but I know it's just over there, so you can sort of adjust methods. Yeah, um, but I find I don't think vans is not that expensive. I mean, I've got 30 or 40 different maps on it at the moment.
Speaker 1:Um, and they've been pretty well used.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they're getting pretty, pretty worn, pretty dog-eared. But, um, what was I saying? Um, yeah, with the avenger you can only have, I think, two maps with the unpaid version, so the subscription definitely helps you if you're bouncing around a lot of different forests. When I had the unpaid version, I actually lost all my pins a number of times because I had to delete a map to then put on a new map and I was like, oh, that's nine months worth of work gone.
Speaker 1:Like, okay, back it up and how much did you say it was for monthly?
Speaker 2:I think it's oh I, I think it's annual, I can't remember off the top of my head. It wasn't excessive, it was definitely well worth it. I mean especially for people just running a Venza, which I've found is fine. I haven't needed anything else so far.
Speaker 1:You're right, and I've seen a few people hey, I went to a state forest, didn't see any deer. Can someone recommend another one to go to? Like, do you think that the state forest situation and that being your reason to hunt, some people are quick to lose interest because it was so easy to get into it. Then they're like, oh, this is not so interesting, I didn't shoot anything. Then they sort of either drop out of the sport or move on to another forest and don't give it that time, you said. Then you did nine months or nine trips and the sore one at the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually wonder if a lot of people go into hunting with the wrong mindset.
Speaker 2:You know, of course you want to shoot an animal.
Speaker 2:Know, of course you want to shoot an animal, of course you want to, you want to take an animal home and you know, if you want to take something home with antlers, even better. But if you go out there just with the mindset of just exploring, I mean that's I mean I'd always done that as a kid out in the forest just wandered around for hours just exploring, and you know, you never know what you're going to find out there. So I mean I'd always done that as a kid out in the forest, just wandered around for hours just exploring, and you never know what you're going to find out there. So it could be you know native mice, or you know bellbird nests, or just you know there's so much out there to find and I think when I go out to a forest it's always just to see what's around and what I'm going to find, and then if an animal or an opportunity presents itself, then more's the better. I think that way you're never actually disappointed with the trip, even if you come back with nothing, like I mean.
Speaker 2:I keep orchids and stuff like that, so I'm quite into my native orchids. So you know, I can be walking around in the rain for three days without an animal, but you'll come across a native orchid and you'll go. Well, trip's done. Awesome, I'm happy, like you know, that'll do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I saw a meme the other day. That was someone had sent their mate more sunset photos and he's like oh so, no deer, this trip. Yeah, and I saw you put a reel up the other day and I can't remember where you were, what, which one it was, but you had orchid like. Part of the video was flowers, little purple flowers, and one thing. The first thing that crossed my mind was I mustn't have seen anything. It was when you were chasing sambra, I think.
Speaker 2:Um oh, down in victoria. Yeah, the the. I'm gonna geek out here the veined hooded orchid um which is a native orchid of victoria, which I didn't know either. I sort of found this flower and photographed it and researched it and I'm like, oh, wow, it's actually a pretty cool little orchid.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go off topic here. We are an outdoors podcast, so flowers, you know, fall into it. Do you have the plant identification app? No, I don't.
Speaker 1:I've tried a couple of those and they've never quite worked um I've got a fencing customer who has the paid version and I'm assuming it's similar to avenza. You get the free one. It's a bit yeah and yeah. And his is to the point where it says you need to add x to that plant and this is what the plant is, or that plant needs this and this is what it is like. It's a proper one anyway. Um, what happened? So he'd done that the day before because we'd asked him a question about a plant. I was just making conversation and he comes out the next day wearing daffodil day socks and I said can I use that app and see if it works on your sock? And it worked out that it was a daffodil, but it said it needed water because it was just a picture of a daffodil on his sock. But uh, you need.
Speaker 2:You need that while you're out and about yeah, I've tried a couple of them, but I think it was an american based app and I think it it. I was looking at a gum tree and it told me it was an oak tree or something. I was like, oh, I don't think this one's the best app.
Speaker 1:It'd be nice to have that for deer sign or deer species and just from a teaching education point of view. I mean it's a bit tricky because you've got to be up close to do it. But I saw the other day and like not coming from a judgment point if this person's listening they shot a deer and posted it in a group that I'm in and it went on for a couple of days and then he reposted it a few days later and said my mate told me, this is a red. I thought it was a fallow and he shot a red hind and he just thought it was a fallow because he didn't know the difference. But if you had an app where he could take a photo and it would identify it for him that worries me a little bit, with people not super being aware of species.
Speaker 1:But again, it's just a new learning situation.
Speaker 2:And I think I mean is that the same you know? You only know when you know. I mean the amount of times I've been caught out with different things at the very start. I mean the scat identification, I think is one of the big things.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've been Look at a lot of goat scat and it kind of looks like deer scat, if you look hard enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like I've been lucky that I got brought up sort of chasing after kangaroos and wallabies and all that, so you already had an idea of. But when you're first starting, I think especially after covid, like a lot of people got into hunting meat eater was that huge thing on netflix.
Speaker 2:It just took off and that's what spurred me to get back into watching the media stuff. But you know, people have watched that that maybe don't have an outdoors background, so they got their license and they got their guns and all that and they're going out there, but they're they're learning craft as well as learning hunting, so they're they're starting off from scratch. And oh no, I feel for the guys that are asking on the internet a lot about the scat, and especially the guys that get shot down, it's like well, mate, everyone's got to start from somewhere. So it's. You know, you need to be, you know a, you know, a little bit more helpful, a little bit more understanding. And just because we've been doing it for 20, 30, 40 years, you know this person's only been doing it for a few months.
Speaker 1:But I still have questions about situations and sign and things and I'm still learning. Every time I take someone out, you know they ask a question, I'm like I don't actually know the answer to that, but I'll. Someone out. You know they ask a question. I'm like I don't actually know the answer to that, but I'll find out, yeah, and then you know add something to my playbook as well.
Speaker 1:I think the being shot down on Facebook it's an unfortunate part of that beast and what it is, and I think it's tricky. But there nearly needs to be a safe space for those questions and I'm not sure if you're part of a club or not, but I feel that is in hunting clubs. I feel that because it's a smaller community could be 50 members, 200 members it's a safe enough space that you could ask hey, is this actually deer poo or am I looking at a wombat cube? Yeah, and not be shot down but be constructive. So I feel that I think those people getting shot down are just asking in the wrong place and maybe should reach out to a smaller community more so than hunting australia facebook page or yeah, absolutely yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:Look, mentoring is, I think, a very, very important thing, I mean in hunting and I think, like my partner and me are also climbers and you know the way we got taught climbing back in the day was we had mentors. You know that the climbing community now doesn't have as strong a mentors because of the gym climbing culture. So all the new climbers don't have that experience and they're getting shot down for the similar reason that the hunters are, because you know they don't have that safe space to sort of turn to, to ask you know silly questions, so you you had your parents and was it uncles or so growing up as your mentors um hunting it was.
Speaker 2:It was, yeah, my father, not so much my uncles, more just my father.
Speaker 1:So in the outdoor.
Speaker 2:He was a big outdoorsman, a big, a big uh bushman it's funny that you brought up the mentoring thing.
Speaker 1:It's just been in the last week or so, but so I didn't have any one, uh, self-taught.
Speaker 1:I had a guy who got me into shooting, I would say, but I took him deer hunting and he had no idea, like he's just a shooter, farm shooter, so firearms was fine.
Speaker 1:But the our local hunting club is doing a mentor, sort of a beginner and mentor paired program where they pair you up with someone for a few months and it's I want to um alex sering, wild food meister. I know he's at home with his clicker this is about the fifth episode I've mentioned him in a row and he's home keeping tabs on that. But he's sort of created this program and it's a funny one because now it's just for me it's become a challenge between the mentors to see who can, not so much about the student, it's about how much we can mentor each other Not mentor, but how much we can do. But I feel that it's an interesting way forward and I I'm a firm believer in education, in the hunting stuff, I think teaching other people, and I think people get scared about giving away spots when you're mentoring, but it doesn't have to be that you could.
Speaker 1:You could take someone to any state forest and and teach them sign it doesn't have to be your, your spots in your forest, and I think that really needs to happen a little bit more, and I don't know how that happens yeah, I've had a couple of people approach me and they're going oh can you, can you take me out at some point?
Speaker 2:and I'm like well, how about we pick a forest that neither of us have gone to and we'll start from scratch, because then I'm seeing the forest for the first time, you're seeing the forest that we're discovering what it is, and you know, I think that's a good way if people are afraid to give away their spots. I mean, there's that many forests to choose from. Choose one that neither of you have ever been to. And you know, start it. Start it from the absolute.
Speaker 1:You know, first step do you think that the forests closer to sydney are the traditional ones that get smashed? I hear that a lot, you know. Just just over the blue mountains and then that whole ring three hours around sydney is you know really heavily hit. Have you found that?
Speaker 2:depends what you mean by heavily hit, I mean foot traffic.
Speaker 1:Oh, I wouldn't say success as far as shooting, but foot traffic foot traffic.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think you know you look at you look at the booking system and it's friday to sunday. I just looked out on everything that's within three hours of Sydney and then you got, you know, the middle of the week. They do get hammered during the week, sorry, during the weekend. That's not to say that there's not still heaps of game there. I mean, yeah, there's. Like I said before, there's deer in every. I don't think I've been to a forest that I haven't found deer in yet. It just depends on how much effort you want to put into and how much time you want to put into finding them, do you think?
Speaker 1:the numbers of hunters. I'm using Australia as an example. They say that 90% of the community live within two hours of the beach, right, so there's this whole section in the middle that doesn't really get touched. And do you think that forests are a bit like that, that although they're getting a lot of traffic, 90% of the people that are going there aren't going further in to areas that are a little more productive?
Speaker 2:Oh, 100%, yeah, absolutely. I mean. I've even seen a few of the local, closer ones where you know you'll just have people just driving around in their four-wheel drives on the tracks on the outskirts just all weekend just driving around, and I've had it where I've been sitting only 200 metres in from the track and just listening to four-wheel drives going up and down and up and down.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think 10 minutes after the last full drive, went past one of the biggest pigs I ever shot, just came trotting out 35 meters in front of me and just dropped him and I was like it's only, it's not even that's the center of the forest, that's the untouched, it's just it's the one that's just off you. You know, the easy path tends to be, so you don't have to go far. I mean, I like to do the trips where you hike, you know, for miles, backpacking, spend overnight, you know, park a car Only because I have a Forester and I literally can't get any further in.
Speaker 2:You know, a Forester will take you, so I have to walk, but I find there's the game is it's not that far away from the popular areas, right, um, but yeah, they're definitely that this, the center of the forest, tend to be better, I find and there's the hot tip from dave go to the center geographical I.
Speaker 1:I use an example uh, when I'm teaching about a zone of influence on an animal and I would say that your pet dog, pet cat has zero zone of influence, meaning you're right up on them, touching them and they don't care. And then a deer, I would say on a private property, with low impact, low pressure, would have a zone of impact of 100 meters, meaning that you could get to 100 meters before it starts to really get alert. I'm just using that as a round figure, but my limited experience with state forest hunting, and just from talking to hundreds of people that have been to state forest, is that the zone of impact of an animal in a state forest is much wider, so they're a little bit more alert for a larger radius around them. Have you found that in your experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think state forest hunting definitely like hones your skills a lot more than perhaps what private land hunting does, only because the animals are hyper aware. I mean you know you watch fellow in a state forest and they just never their heads never stop moving. You know their ears are just going the whole time because they're just aware of every tiny little movement of sound. But most of the deer that I shoot are between 35 and 80 yards, so I don't tend to take any shots further than that.
Speaker 2:And most of them are around sort of 40. But I'm a big sit and wait sort of guy, so I like to sit there and just get in there hours before, settle in, get everything nice and quiet, make sure the wind's right and just then let nature do its thing around me I got two sit and wait questions for you.
Speaker 1:You probably you haven't listened to the last episode I released, but we talked about um. Well, you may have, I don't think you have keep me busy. But uh, I did a sit and commit. I called it Up at Nundle and it's my really only reference to State Forest Hunting, because it's the only time I've put actual effort into hunting mine and I was successful. So you can go and listen to the previous episode.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to brag on about it, but oh man, I was so bored I was drawing things on the ground. I had no reception so that was killing me. I was drawing things on the ground, I was organising photos on my phone. I was playing with ants crawling on my legs. I had sorry, it's not the only time I've done it. I did it when I was hunting hog deer down on Snake Island with a friend of mine, yannick. We actually made a chessboard on the ground and we carved pieces, we whittled pieces out of sticks and we made a chess board and we played chess while we were passing time. What are you doing mentally to sit in one spot?
Speaker 1:Other than taking pictures of orchids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, taking pictures of orchids making chess boards, organizing photos, playing Candy Crush, like all those sort of things, um, I mean, because I take the, the cameras away with me too, like I spend a lot of the time, you know, taking photos and capturing video while I'm sitting there. So you know I'm always watching for any birds or insects or you know anything that sort of pops up to keep you sort of amused. But yeah, look, I've got to admit it does come a lot easier with age. I mean, I'm getting a bit older now, so the sitting in patience I'm finding a bit easier.
Speaker 2:Four years ago, though, I was, you know, one of those guys you park the car, you walk for 16 hours, you don't stop, you get back to camp, you sleep, you get up again and then you walk for 16 hours, cover as much forest as possible, which I found moderately successful. But then, of course, as you got to know that forest because you've travelled so much, then you didn't have to move as much you started learning. Okay, that's the more productive spot, that's where I've seen more signs, so then you can start.
Speaker 1:What are you looking for, like what would indicate to you a spot to do a sit and wait um?
Speaker 2:definitely feed like the, the browse. You know the, the amount of varied herbage and that that you find within the areas I find um. Can you just clarify what browse is? Browse is the stuff that the deer eat on the way through, isn't it?
Speaker 1:But not grass. Not grass, so varied stuff Like a woody shrub or something. It's usually at mouth height, less than bending over height.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is interesting because it's often hard to distinguish. Well, for me it's anyway what is deer and what is kangaroo. So you'll find a plant and you're like, oh, the deer have been smashing this, but it could also have been a kangaroo that's been nibbling away on it. So I think that's where American hunters have it a lot easier than we do, because you know it's like well, yeah, they kangaroos eat everything that the deer do. Right, like it's. It's not that easy, um but also just time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, feed, fresh sign, fresh tracks. You know, especially, I love you know, especially if it's rained overnight and you can cover a bit of distance. You know that obviously where there overnight and you can cover a bit of distance. You know that obviously where there's deer been traveling that night because they're fresh prints. Um, I mean one of the forests. I've spent about three years walking through it, um, and it's a pretty popular forest. You know.
Speaker 2:There's nothing secret or special about it, but the amount of time that I've spent moving through it, you know. You just pick up little bits of information here and there and that allows you to build a bigger picture. And you know, once you get all your pins on a benzy, you start seeing well, okay, this is where a lot of the rubs are, this is where the thrashes are, this is more where there's a lot more footprints. There seems to be a lot more bedding areas here. So you start to build a better picture of the forest, which then means you can okay, well, I don't have to worry about that section over there, because I've never seen a print, I've never seen a rub, never seen scat. So you know, whatever reason if you, even if you can't figure out what reason it is. There's obviously at this time of year there's no deer there, so put that one aside till later.
Speaker 1:Something important you just said then was at this time of year yes it's very specific to at that time of year it may also be all time of year there's nothing. Frequently, living in that area, although they may traverse through, I've had different properties where there's nothing there for six months and then everything's there for two months and then nothing again just depending on on on feed or where the females are.
Speaker 1:I'm specifically talking fallow and private farms. But if you hold the farm, that holds I can't remember if I've spoken about this on the podcast, so boring for those who've listened, if I have but your farm might hold the does all year round, which means the bucks come in, do their thing and leave, and then the females stay there and they fawn out there and then they live there. That's great, depending on what you want to do with the property. Or your property might be the one next door that holds the bucks, or the system and the valley next door that holds the bucks all year round when they're bachelor herding. But come the rut, your property's empty. They all rack off and they're not in that valley and this applies to State Forest too. They're not in that valley, they're one or two over in the next one where the girls were. Or you also might have one that's big enough that holds everything all year round.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting to say at a specific time of year. Yeah, well, it's funny you were saying that about a fellow, because I was chasing red last year and for 10 months had red on camera. You know we had them in velvet. You know we had them. You know they were all there and it was great. The rut know exactly where they're going to be. You know we've got this nailed. Turn up there was nothing, they'd all just left and we're like, okay, what do we do now? Like we didn't expect that they obviously use this area, just was somewhere else for the rut. I found one, luckily on the last day of the hunt, but that was seven days of absolutely nothing when you said one, then did you put your finger up and point at something, or you just?
Speaker 2:yeah, that was. That's him there.
Speaker 1:That's my the red deer from last year just a small spiker, obviously, for those that are listening. What we're looking at there is one, two, three, four, five, six. Is it six by five, or am I missing a six?
Speaker 2:five nox5, no 6x5, there's a tiny little nub that I kind of I want to count, but I know I'm not allowed to it depends on what rule you go by.
Speaker 1:The general rule I use it's got to be taller than it is wide from valley to valley yeah, okay, some guys use, oh, if you can hang a ring off it. But you can do that from. If you hold it up at a certain angle, you can hang a ring off it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's 6 by 5. Yeah right.
Speaker 1:It's a nub, it's a nodule?
Speaker 2:No, that's a cracker.
Speaker 1:I want to. Is that last year, 23? It was your best rut.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the 23.
Speaker 1:That was the first red rut so that was the first time it actually focused on red deer, and am I correct in saying you also went? Out with a bow after that and took something as well.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, last year yeah, follow that up with um. Out for the fallow rut after the red for I think six days, um, so that was the first time I'd been bow hunting. So I bought a bow I, I think, in December, and spent from December to April just practising, joined a local archery club here in Sydney and just spent four months just practise, practise, practise, trying to get it right Because I think it's. I mean archery is, I know you've had experience recently up with Nick and your wife and all that, and it's a totally different beast. Like you just can't. There's no room for error, like it's tough.
Speaker 1:Do you think it's helped you get to that average of shot at the 40 or 50-yard mark? Like, do you think it's helped in your rifle hunting your ability to get closer?
Speaker 2:No. So I think the rifle hunting has actually helped the archery. Um, I mean, I always I like getting close to the animals. I don't I don't like taking long shots. Um, that's just the style that I like. I like getting in close or having them coming close to me, like it's. It just feels much more personal. So I'd had the experience of getting in very close to animals and so when I went to archery, it was a very natural sort of progression. It was like, well, you, you're not great, but you're okay at this, so you've already got a leg up there. Now you just have to learn how to send that flimsy little thing straight slinging sticks, we call it yeah, which is hard, um, but, yeah, managed.
Speaker 2:Had a bit of disappointment in the first couple of days um, tell us about it. Oh, it was I think it was day three and set up in this great spot that I knew there was a rub and there was a scrape and I knew that all the bucks in the area come through this area at some point. So I set up really nicely and then, sure enough, this nice little spiky thing came in, sat broadside at 30 yards and I'm like all all right, drew back and it was looking good and I missed this tiny little branch. That was about five meters in front of the bow and as I sent the arrow and I've got it on film, you can see it hit the branch, this tiny little twig, and it sent the arrow two meters off like, and the animal didn't know what had happened. I didn't know what had happened, but the second arrow knocked and then I was just so freaked out by what happened the first one that I just rushed the shot and ended up putting a bad shot on the animal.
Speaker 2:Um, it got away. I spoke to a few people and they said it wasn't a lethal shot. It shot really high. I think it missed the spine and went right up high. Um, it ran off and I never found it. The blood trail stopped. There was no more blood, so I'm hoping it was okay, but, um, yeah, that was the first shot that I'd had on an animal with a bow, so it wasn't the greatest way to start and do you remember the feeling, not the second shot, because that's different.
Speaker 1:Do you remember the feelings of the first shot like do you, are you someone that would take in those moments? It's like what was my heart doing at that time, or are you just focused on the animal?
Speaker 2:um, I, I, I was no, the heart was going. Yeah, that was definitely. I mean the excitement leading up seeing this animal coming in and knowing that I'd have a chance, like can we call it buck?
Speaker 2:fever. Oh, absolutely, yeah, let's call it spiky fever. It was a little, not quite a big buck, but um, oh, absolutely, it was buck fever, you know, and because it was the first shot with the boat, which I think a lot of hunters have with their first animals, like it doesn't matter how many animals you shot with the rifle when you're, when you're using a new method, you know it's nerve-wracking. So, yeah, I mean, I would like to say without the twig it would have been a perfect shot, but who knows?
Speaker 1:maybe the buck, the buck fever stopped you seeing that twig, and maybe it's definitely something you'll do now is clear your shooting path look, quite possibly, and the two hours that I spent clearing the shooting path before I sat down like obviously wasn't clear enough you're gonna do some more tree removal skills.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, you're sitting on the same spot. Did you stay there?
Speaker 2:No, so I ended up moving around. The weather turned quite nasty.
Speaker 2:It was that period last year where those really strong winds came through during the rut it was, yeah, all the good spots that I had marked out. They were howling with wind. You know 30, 40k an hour winds through the valleys. So it made it really difficult and I'd almost given up and I just gave one more gully. So I'll just go for a little walk, and you know how it is. You walk and you're croaking in the distance, you, you're like there's something out there. I was like, all right, I'll go for a walk up. Went for a walk up and a little spiky and a doe came charging past me and I'm like I don't think spikies croak like that, do they? I mean this thing was tiny and I'm like I don't know, maybe it is. And then mean this thing was tiny and I'm like I don't, don't know, maybe it is. And then they took off and then, fair enough, this croaking kept happening and gave a rattle and came straight up to I think it was about 11 yards and then got a shot. Was an okay shot, but, um, yeah, it took off, couldn't find it, searched for three hours, couldn't find it, gave up, went back to camp. Was anyone who's yeah, anyone who's lost an animal knows? It's just you feel sick. You know it's gut-wrenching, oh, and like you know the feeling that the animal was still out there and injured, like it's. You know they say hunters don't care, but I mean any hunter that's been through it like, yeah, they, they care about the welfare of the animals.
Speaker 2:Um, so I sat in a chair for two hours and just couldn't let it go. I went no, I'm getting back up, I'm starting at the other end of the forest and I'm just going to start from the other end and just make my way whole through until I find it. Park the car, walk 20 yards and it was sitting there and I looked at this buck and I'm like someone else has shot a buck with an arrow. Like there's a buck sitting there with an arrow out of it and I'm looking at it. I'm like that's my arrow and this was 400 meters from where I shot it. So it wasn't it kind of it was a diagonal shot, but it was.
Speaker 2:I think it must have. Well, either I stuffed the shot or it jumped the string a bit and it ended up going in behind the shoulder instead of the front on a three-quarter. So, um, yeah, ended up finding and managing to put it down there and recovered it. But yeah, it was. If there's one bit of advice, don't give up. You know, no matter what happens out there, just keep going. If it's if you can't find animals, if you've lost an animal, just you know, don't give up because state forest, you just never know when it's going to happen.
Speaker 1:It's crazy that that just chance that you just pulled up there, you just walked in there and you've got skills and knowledge and things years of these things built up, but if you had moved your car 100 metres further forward, you may have never found it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And those things perplex me a little bit, the the series of things that have to fall into place for everything to work. And this happened, um again, talk about, on the last episode. Jack shot a fellow buck, but the way it presented was that if one thing changed all day, we would never have seen that buck. It was yep, like it was just on the side of a hill in a little hole through these blackberries, and we spotted it when we were passing it on the track. But if we were 30 seconds earlier, a minute later, whatever, we wouldn't have seen it. And just calculate the odds of the odds are never really stacked in our favour. And then you go state forest hunting and it makes it. You know you've got other things to deal with and it's just all the research you do, all the training you do, the preparation takes one twig, doesn't it, dave, to ruin it for you.
Speaker 1:Or it just man, and that's what makes it. How did you feel after you found it? Like that's what makes the elation worth it and that's what people don't understand when you see a trophy photo of people smiling behind an animal.
Speaker 2:That like it's not, hey.
Speaker 1:I've killed it. It's all of the thousand other little things that have come together. The relief. That's one of them. Like there's the pressure from home, the pressure from your mates, pressure on yourself, it's just I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't think people outside of hunting can fully understand that roller coaster that you went through over a what three or four-hour period of hearing it seeing it, shooting it, losing it, going back to camp, getting sick of yourself in your head going and getting it and gut-wrenching when I couldn't find it the first time, like I was like that's it, I'm selling the bow.
Speaker 2:I don't want this anymore. Like I've injured one animal, I've lost another one and I don't know if it's injured. I'm like this is not for me, like this is not good feelings. You know the responsibility and like when.
Speaker 2:I first started hunting, like actually, um, a mutual friend pulled me up on it like in none of my photos I was smiling because I found it a very serious thing. You know, you're taking the life of something. I was like I don't want to smile in this photo. It's, you know, it feels too heavy and he sent me a message. He's like mate, you know you're allowed to smile in photos, like you know, and it took a while to get comfortable even just smiling in photos, because you know the the weight of of what you're doing and taking responsibility for it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, getting back to that one, yeah, it felt terrible, but the feeling of when I did find it, I mean it's actually hard to describe, like I mean, I don't know that the birth of your first son, that might be going a bit too far, but you know, like there is a I guess it's just that weight of relief that is just suddenly lifted and you know all that anxiety and you know that worry and the stress is just drained from you and you're just left with this feeling of accomplishment which, yeah, I think is hard to get in in normal life I.
Speaker 1:I'm going to circle back to my one state forest story because I didn't talk about on the last one, but I went to nundle and and shot a red. But there's a video of me walking down the hill and I'm filming myself and I'm talking to jack and I'm gonna have to post it because it's the girliest, high pitchiest little voice I'm doing. But it's an emotion I haven't felt in a long time and it was this absolute. I don't know why you can't talk normally, but I've got helium in my voice and it's just this. I don't know, it's just. You can't get it elsewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, especially with State Forest, it's the amount of hard work that you have to do and like there's no way around it. With State Forest it's just hard work. You need to put in massive hours. You know lots of of walking. You know to be successful. So when you are successful, you know the the weight of all that work you've done in the past. You know suddenly is you know everything validated validate absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, when I got that red deer last year, like I, I'll be honest I started crying like I was had it on camera. I had to turn the camera off because I started getting all choked up. There was 10 months of you know serious work. I'd probably nine, nine trips out to this forest just doing recces. You know time away from a partner and you know all the money spent fuel, food and all that, um, missing family engagements because you're sort of committed to do this. And then when you are finally successful, it's like, well, firstly, every minute of that pain was worth it, you know, but yeah, it's, I don't know. I've had it in climbing and in kayaking as well. When you, when you do big trips, you know, and you get through those, those big moments, those sort of you know big climbs or something like that, but yeah, it's, it's something else, and then get to take home all the meat and feed your family for months on end.
Speaker 1:So you know you, you eat a lot of venison.
Speaker 2:We primarily just we have maybe bought five steaks in the last three years. So we we eat a lot of venison and goat um, pork, pork we don't only because I'm I'm not confident enough with pork, with what's Wild pork, with wild pork, it's just the choice that I've made and pork's not that expensive at the butcher, whereas venison's really hard to get to. We went to Fire Door, I know. You know that fancy restaurant in Surry Hills. We managed to get to there last week and we ordered to have this 290 day nine plus wagyu steak. Um, you know, it costs a fortune and we're like, oh, we have to try that. And me and my partner both took one bite of it and it was so rich and so fatty. We're like we can't eat it. It's like we're so used to venison now and like you know that lean meat and that that flavor, um, it was completely wasted did you finish, you're taking a doggy bag.
Speaker 1:I I forced it down yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:It was an expensive forced meal, but um, yeah, it's, it's. It's interesting what, eating so much venison you, you know that length.
Speaker 1:Call it state forest Wagyu. State forest Wagyu, yeah. Definitely doesn't have fat on it, unless you're doing the velvet sort of stuff. Have you shot anything or shot much in velvet?
Speaker 2:No, me and a mate shot a fellow a couple of weeks ago, a really good stag, and that was covered in fat like he was. He was primed up ready for the, ready for the, the rut, but I don't know. I've been told that the? Uh, there's one of the enzymes, the one of the amigas in the deer fat, that turns it rancid a lot quicker than manufactured. You know the beef fat. Do you know about that?
Speaker 1:I'll say that no, I don't fully know that. I have briefly listened to a little bit about it and it was Meat Eater podcast talking about it and they were saying that even venison fat left on in a freezer will still go rancid over time right, because fat doesn't fully freeze, like in a freezer like meat does.
Speaker 1:It's less moisture content. Um, yeah, so I haven't. I don't know the answer from an australian point of view, but one thing I find with fatty deer is the cap doesn't stay on anyway, like you can't cook. Yeah, you can't have a nice chop with the fat on it, because it falls off, whatever the joining layer is. I think it's called fascia or fascia. Yeah, fascia it's just non-existent or super fine and you end up losing it and I don't think I don't trim it off, I cook it with it on there and then it falls off, but then at least you get some of the flavor and as it renders down and then so I leave it on there, but it's only for looks in the photos.
Speaker 1:Basically, my favorite cut of a fallow, like a meat, a fatty fallow, is shoulder, because they actually lay on fat from. This is my experience again. Not it's just my learnings, not studied but they lay on fat from. This is my experience again. Not it's just my learnings, not studied, but they lay on fat from the front back. So if you get one that's just starting to lay on fat in, like november or december, it'll be fatty, you know, through the neck and shoulders, but less over the rump and loin, and it's not until the end of the year or the end of that growing season where it's their rump and their tail that puts on the last bit of fat yeah, I'm not really sure what it is.
Speaker 1:It just seems to be this wave that works its way through. But the shoulder has a lot of intramuscular fat. It doesn't get the cap on it but it lays it down inside the muscle. So it turns, because shoulders traditionally, you know, really nice slow cooked. But you can get away with a little bit more, less slow cooking in that fatty period because it just has this intramuscular moisture that helps it stay wet.
Speaker 2:That would explode because I'm going to get crucified for this. But the front shoulders we actually we minced and we've been eating that and we're like this this means tastes different to the, the other mints that we do with the fellow. So that would be it, just a slightly higher fat content. Yeah, because when we do mints we don't add any fat whatsoever. I know people add pork fat or pork belly to it a percentage, but we find it's just the straight mints is fine, yeah, but that little bit of deer fat, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll have to remember that one Useless information for you. So you said you like goat meat, now one thing you get. I disagree with it, but the comment is oh goat stinky billy, stinky billy meat. You know it's unusable. I've seen some of the photos you're sharing and you're not shooting little billies. You know you're shooting bigger billies you're still harvesting meat and noticing a flavor change or uh, we, I think it's a it's.
Speaker 2:It's a handling thing. Um, I know my first. When I first started, I took a goat, a couple of goats and a fellow and my partner, but I'd proudly bring it home and cook it up and my partner would eat it. She's like this is disgusting, this is horrible. And then it wasn't till much later that we learned it was through the handling, as we actually process the meat. So I mean, I'm a big advocate of wearing the gloves and skinning it back and taking that skin right back and then changing the gloves and then working on the meat so that absolutely nothing is cross-contaminating do you change your blade or change a knife?
Speaker 2:uh, no but I clean it. I clean it, yeah, absolutely when it. Whenever I change, even when I change the different parts of it, I'll clean the blade, um, even if it is just a wet wipe, I'll give it a wet wipe down just to um, yeah, just in case there's any little nicks in the stomach or that that I haven't noticed, and cross contamination or stuff like that. But I find the, the, the fur, the skin and all that touching that and getting that onto the meat, that's what transfers All the billies that we take. We had, ali did, a goat rendang the other night and it was the best goat meal I've ever tasted in my life Like, and this was an old billy as well. So, yeah, I think that's a bit of a I don't know, maybe an old wives' tale or, you know, maybe, as our knowledge is getting better and better, we're actually, you know, especially back in the day, no one knew you know, it just always tastes like rubbish.
Speaker 2:But you know, well, you know, I think we're getting better at using the meat.
Speaker 1:And again, the benefit of Facebook and internet is the sharing of knowledge and the sharing of recipes and things like that have you? Do you take neck meat or the neck itself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I take neck meat.
Speaker 1:Do you just butterfly it out like?
Speaker 2:bone it out. To be honest, I'm a bit of a hack. I haven't learned how to do the neck properly, so just kind of hack into it.
Speaker 1:Have you got a hacksaw? No, I've got a little A meat bone saw.
Speaker 2:No, a little bush saw you know a little folding and you know you get like two or three and then you've got to.
Speaker 1:Clean the teeth out.
Speaker 2:A couple of more. And my partner's mother well, my mother-in-law, she bought me a recipro because she quite likes when I take the meat up with her and she's like, oh, you know, what would you like for christmas? I'm like, oh, recipro to do the animals would be nice. So yeah, I've tried that a couple of times, but you know that's only if you can get the animal back to the car, yep, which you know, in steep state forest is pretty difficult at times.
Speaker 1:But no, I haven't used the bow saw. My slice of life. I've got stainless steel blades now for the recipro. You can get them online, but they've just started stocking them, so they're specifically a bone saw. So it's a different direction of teeth from what I understand and teeth per inch. So it's a different direction of teeth from what I understand and teeth per inch.
Speaker 2:So when you take the neck meat, do you start from the top and then open it around?
Speaker 1:or start like Situational. So again, depending on hanging, or by myself and I'm going to be honest, most of my animals are vehicular accessible, so it's easy to winch them in a tree or something, but no, I usually go straight down the back. There's that yellow, it's called the paddywhack. It runs straight down the top of the spine just on one side of that, and then follow the bone and go straight down out and around by this time.
Speaker 2:I've already got the esophagus out as well because I take that out while I'm gutting.
Speaker 1:So the whole tract, bum to chin basically comes out in one go and then, yeah, so you can skin your way around, bone out your way around, and then you'll have one side, and then you bone out the other side and you have the other side. But I want to challenge you to my favourite meal no-transcript. So you cut it straight either with an axe or with a saw or just cut the whole neck off and then cut it off at the back of the skull and take the whole neck home and then cut it into like two-inch steaks, basically with the bone in it, and then cook it using any osso bucco recipe, but leave the bone in it, because there's just a lot of flavour in that spinal column, spinal cord and the bone. You do get some shards of meat, that's some shards of bone, from cutting it. But it says shop from the shoulders forward are my favorite part of the animal.
Speaker 1:I'm not a backstrap doesn't super excite me. Um legs, I give them to. I've got a new colleague at work who's south af and he makes biltong. It's the one reason I employ him. Don't tell him that. But back legs for fallow and things are perfect for that. But yeah, front shoulders and neck are my favourite, and because we've got young kids they don't love steaks.
Speaker 1:They're a bit hoity-toity about that. So we do a lot of mince but we do a lot of pulled meat. So you can just drop the whole neck in the slow cooker and pull it, just cook it in a stock and then pull it. Once you've pulled it, you can divvy it up and have 10 different meals out of it. You can do tacos, enchiladas, gravy rolls, all sorts of things. So I'll just do a big pulled, not for a meal, but for two or three meals, and then, once it's pulled, I can use it in different ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I must well challenge, accepted, check the space soon and we'll see what we can come up with. I do find that's one of the biggest challenges I've found is learning how to use the meat correctly. How to use the meat correctly um, you know, I mean what most of my field work is, the, the gutless method. I think they call it. Yeah, where it's actually, you know, because, because I'm by myself hunting most of the time, it's just easier and quicker do you want to give just a quick little rundown on what the gutless method is?
Speaker 2:so the gut, from what I understand and correct me if I'm wrong is you actually you leave the guts in. That's correct. Yeah, is that the gutless method? Yeah, and you'd actually take the back legs off, the front legs off, the back, straps out, but the guts are actually left in. So the skin's all left on which one, if you're traveling around the forest, the skins or the furs onto the pelts on to protect the meat? It doesn't dry out as much, um, but it's just much quicker. Um, I still do my health check, so after I've taken all the meat off right, so I still will open it up to to check the kidneys and the liver have you ever found anything in a deer?
Speaker 2:I have. So, uh, it was bondi. I actually took a fellow perfectly healthy. It looked fantastic. So I did the gutless method and then spent ages getting all the meat off and all that and then checked the liver and it actually looked like it had liver flukes all the way through it. So those little grainy, white Grains of rice, grains of rice and white discoloration all along the edge of the liver. Um, I did keep the meat because I wasn't sure that was. The rest of the animal looked absolutely healthy, like there was nothing in the kidneys, you know, the lungs looked all right, all that sort of stuff. There was no lesions no emphysema, smoking nothing no, it was.
Speaker 2:It was a pretty healthy deer, it was a modern deer. But then when I got home I asked the question. I think there's a good Facebook group that does a lot of that animal health stuff. I think there's a guy in Penrith who runs it. Anyway, they were telling me that the meat's still okay. But yeah, yeah, it's the organs. Get rid of the organs, clean everything up. Um, I have shot rabbits before where I've opened up the joint and I think it's it's a worm that's specific to rabbits and it literally it's spurted all over the kitchen table. I mean, that was pretty confronting.
Speaker 1:It's entertaining, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was freaking out because it's the first time I'd experienced it, so I think I dead-holed literally from the front door to the bedroom, just in case.
Speaker 1:You were COVID-free in the house for a while.
Speaker 2:COVID-free. But that's the only thing I've found in the deer.
Speaker 1:Other than that, I've never found anything in the deer I'm similar I've found in the deer, other than that I've never found anything. I'm similar. I found one dodgy liver, but I don't know. I just, yes, they can get worms right, they live wild and it's not, it's not unheard of, but you know what kills worms cooking, yeah, cooking the meat like it's not ideal, but you're not going to get sick from it again. Please someone write in and correct me because I'm probably wrong. You may get sick from it, but from my journey and studies and exploration and things and conversations with hundreds of hunters, it's as long as you cook it, it's uh, and the benefit of again staying away from the back end of the meat and sticking to the front shoulders and things.
Speaker 1:Nothing's ever medium rare I'm always slow cooked, 10 hours, whatever, yeah. So everything's definitely yeah clear from that front.
Speaker 2:So now it's like you, sorry, when, when you hear, um, when you hear guys from abattoirs talking, and you know, you ask a lot of some of the hunters are abattoirs, workers and that, and you ask, oh look, is this a problem? They're like, mate, like you know you should see what happens. And you're like, oh okay, well, maybe it's you know, something that we need to be worried about, and it's good to be concerned about it, but obviously, you know, I think we're a bit too quick to throw caution.
Speaker 1:And I mean you did the right thing from my perspective. You took the meat home and then asked the question. You didn't leave it, ask the question and then go. Oh, bugger, yeah I could have taken that. Um, I I personally don't mind people leaving meat. I've been guilty of shooting animals and leaving them. It's each their own. Everyone does their own thing. I do it less now, if not, I don't do it at all. Really, I take everything, but I've got no issue with people that leave meat or take some whatever.
Speaker 1:But I think you did the right thing by taking it home yeah, and asking the question and just on the gutless method we're talking about you said leaving the skin on. Just an explanation of how I would do. That would be to have the animal on its back but legs in the air and then I would take yes so I call it the four wheels and back straps.
Speaker 1:So I take all four legs off from that position, cutting straight through the fur and in this stage I'm not worried about hair like you get hair on the exposed meat from cutting that open. You've got to cut the skin and things. But generally once you make your first incision most of your cutting's done from inside so there's not too much hair. And then you take your four legs off and then you flip it over and get the back strap so you do miss the tenderloins but on a little deer you're not missing much.
Speaker 2:You can go in and get them, but it's not.
Speaker 1:I've tried the tenderloins a few times and like the amount of effort it is to get them like I'm like for two sausages?
Speaker 2:yeah, it is, and that's quite interesting. One thing I learned was by taking the front legs off first, you actually get that access. Better access to the back strap?
Speaker 1:yes, um, because I've noticed I do it behind the shoulder blade. It drops behind the shoulder blade.
Speaker 2:It drops behind, so a lot of people will actually take it off too early and miss quite a good part of it.
Speaker 1:You can actually, if you take your front legs off, you can follow that. You can bone that all the way out, including your neck meat. It's not the same muscle but it's the same path. So, essentially, you can take back straps off from the back of the ears all the way through to the pelvis. It's not the back strap, yeah, because it changes muscle names and types. But it is, yeah, after the shoulders off, it's possible it did.
Speaker 2:I actually learned that not not that long ago. We kept wondering why the back strap kept changing and there was sinew and I'm like, oh okay, the back strap ended way back here. Yes, I've been going way the hell up.
Speaker 1:Talking about your butchery mates and guys in abs like I. Just when I'm teaching, I explain it like beef, because everyone knows they're beef cuts of meat. You know, porterhouse, scotch fillet they all come from the backstrap, what we would call the backstrap, but that's two different muscles. Well, the scotch fillet is several different muscles joined together and there's always the tender one right on the side. That's really nice. And then you've got the porterhouse section, which is just that large chunk of red meat, very minimal marbling with the fat cap. Uh, so you know that all comes from what hunters would call the back strap. Yeah, so that's your muscle groups changing through that. So yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:I'd like to, I'd like to know more about the butchery side of it. I mean, I've done a few like field courses and that, but it's. You know. I've been watching a lot of youtubes from actual butchers to you know to learn how, to know how to bone out a rear leg and then separate your muscle groups and then now you've got them separated. You know how you like it's. It's a skill Like it takes a long, I think the hunting is.
Speaker 1:It's a long video, yeah, yeah, the hunting's almost the easy part of it.
Speaker 2:It's how to properly treat the meat afterwards.
Speaker 1:It's nearly easier to go to your mates. Hey, you want a leg of fennison? Here you go, there you go, there's your leg. And just give it away instead of cutting it all up.
Speaker 2:I have neighbours who love, not that you know. Are you allowed to be given meat away?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're all right in New South Wales.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool, yeah, they love it. So every time I come back I'll take a look. They absolutely love the movie, which is great, and that's why you do it as well. Right, so you can achieve success, and you know I use the analogy of investing coins.
Speaker 1:Every time you shoot something, coins come out of it, like in Donkey Kong, when you smash the box and you grab all the coins and then you take them home and you're giving some to your neighbor. You know, you give some to your work colleagues.
Speaker 1:You're investing these coins and then they're going around saying, geez, I met a hunter once and he kind of gave us some meat and it was really nice and he's a nice guy and I think it's just yeah, the whole society goodwill isn't it, you know, especially if you can have that conversation with them about.
Speaker 2:You know how you got the meat, how you treated it, the ethics behind it.
Speaker 2:You know it only paints you know, hunters in a positive light and I think all that helps. You know you do get a couple of bad apples, that sort of bring it down, but the more goodwill you can do and put it out there. I mean some of the greatest conversations I've had have been with vegans. I mean a couple of the guys that I work with, um, they're vegan and they're fascinated by it because they're more about the ethics of how the animals are treated. That's why they don't. They don't eat meat. But when you hear about your hunting methods and the respect you show for the animal and the fact that it's lived its absolute best life and you know in a fraction of a second it's done, rather than spending two weeks in a slaughterhouse with all these animals it's quite refreshing that you know those two sort of polar opposites can have a conversation about that.
Speaker 1:I think people miss the connection that we, as hunters, have the most in common. We have more in common with pure vegans than we have with people who just buy meat from the shop and eat it yeah we're both interested in the same values.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and those conversations I've had many of them and it's the ones that are vegans, not because they've watched a documentary when they were 12 about pigs and that was it the ones that are truly in, invested equally, like we are, in what we do and hunt and consume and the levels we go to. They're the same. Then the non-leather wearing you know, don't eat lollies with red in them because it comes from a bug Like the ones that actually know and understand why they are the way. They are great conversationalists because I can talk about hunting until my teeth fall out and they're the same. And as long as they're respectful and I haven't found one that isn't really they don't like you killing things, but once you get past that fact of it, they're quiet.
Speaker 2:It's a surprising conversation that I never thought I would have been having with. You know that section of society, so yeah, it's refreshing to find common ground in in which which is both you, both it's all about. You know the welfare of the animal, right? You know, unfortunately. You know you do have to eat and we love our sport and all the challenges that go with it. But you know the animal lives its best life. It's technically not supposed to be in australia, so it's you know it all kind of doing our part for for nature and things.
Speaker 1:I want to. I want to get away from food, which I hate, because I love food. But oh, I want to circle way back to when you started bow hunting and then you you changed and you shot the bucks and then you got it, and then you've continued your bow hunting journey and just recently you went overseas and had some fun yeah, yeah was that a?
Speaker 2:bow hunting only. Trip, that was bow hunting only right, tell us about it, that's exciting. Uh, so a mate, mate that I've started shooting with the club. We, we touched base and met up and he, he only bow hunts. So he doesn't, he doesn't he's actually a member.
Speaker 1:He's a member of our local hunting club down here too oh, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, so you can mention him. Hello, mark, mark. Hey, mark, how are you mate? Um, yeah, so he's, we're at the same club together and we caught up and had a chat and he sort of he tossed out this idea because he wanted to go to new zealand, um, but he hadn't really had the the big mountain sort of experience, so he sort of he was looking for someone to go over with him, just for the safety aspect, and I thought I was turning I turned, just turned 50 this year. So I was like, well, 50th birthday present, like safety dave to the rescue why don't I go hunting in new zealand?
Speaker 2:like what a, what a great. If I can still climb mountains at 50, you're doing okay. So, yeah, we ended up going over there and it was. We sort of wanted to stick to tar. Um, I debated taking the rifle, because mark hunts with a bow only. I was like, well, let's just take the bows, that way we're both on the same page. You know, we're both in sync, we can both work together. It's not two different hunts happening at the same time. Um, yeah, that was incredible. So we chose the West Coast the steepest, the wettest, the gnarliest Can.
Speaker 1:I ask what your planning was and why West Coast, and how did you pick it from over this side of the country?
Speaker 2:Look, planning was pretty serious, so I sat back and I pretty much let Mark do all the work. So I think he'd been planning it for six, nine months beforehand. Anyway, so he'd he'd made contact with a lot of new zealand hunters, with a lot of the community here. He'd made a lot of contacts and gained a lot of information from them. Um, as to why the west coast, I couldn't answer that I don't even know.
Speaker 2:It just kind of seemed it's the worst for um climate yeah, rain and well, I think we're both state forest hunters so we didn't want something easy, so we literally chose the hardest spot, new zealand, to go um. I think one of the other things was I'd done a kayaking trip over there and I'd kayaked the West coast. So I'd kayaked a lot of those rivers, helicoptered in and then spent a couple of days coming out of those rivers. So one of the spots that we chose or that was a possibility was one of the rivers that I actually paddled. So I had an idea of the terrain and what we were going to be in for in the forest and that. So we kind of defaulted on that.
Speaker 2:Uh, and one of the guys we got in contact through facebook here to a helicopter company over there, um, glacier something I can't remember the name of it, but I could find his name great bloke. He was just endless information and helped us out with everything, because we didn't do guided or anything. We just wanted to be dropped off at a good spot. That way we had a chance and then we were just going to figure it out for ourselves. So, yeah, he flew us up, dropped us off at one of the huts, the. The idea was to go right up high. But he sort of warned against that just because we had weather coming in, um, and he said, look, it's pretty in hospital up there. If that weather does hit, which is supposed to hit hard, it's going to make it really difficult up there.
Speaker 2:And it worked out perfect. Would have been trapped in tents for, I think, five days, so it did hit. So it did hit up at the top. It hit. It hit really bad. I mean, we had yeah, I've been, I'll get to that later but we had a landslide that blocked off the highway on the way out trying to get to the airport. So, yeah, but I'll tell you that later. So he ended up putting us in one of the last huts you could get to before the no-fly zone. So we had a great base camp and we were just setting off from the hut each day, getting as high up as we could. There was a couple of landslides that stopped us from getting right up high which is where all the bulls were um.
Speaker 2:So you could see them? Oh, we could, we were glassing, we could glass them. There was, you know, 30, 20, 30 bulls that we could glass across all aspects and you know, each day they just appear on different sides of the mountain did you have a spotting scope or just binoculars?
Speaker 2:no, just binoculars. So I mean, you couldn't see, you could tell they were bulls, but you couldn't see the caliber. But it was like, oh, that's, yeah, that's where all the big boys are, um, but down low lots of young bulls and lots of nannies, um. So, which was more than enough for, you know, first trip to new zealand, you know, even if you just see animals, it's a win, you know, and the landscapes are incredible. So we managed to take, uh, mark took a chamois and a tar, possibly the oldest chamois in new zealand. I mean, this thing was, it was ugly, it was like the ugliest chamois you've ever seen. But we took it. We landed, the helicopter, took a 200-meter walk and it was standing there 200 meters from camp. So literally like 20 minutes after we landed, we shot a chamois and we just looked at each other and I was recording it on video and I'm like, well, did that just happen? Yeah, and I'm like I hope something else happens, man.
Speaker 1:Something else happens, man, because this is the shortest video I've ever made, and Shemi are quite well known for being curious and it is their demise sometimes they sort of I've shot tar and been with clients that shot tar and while you're skinning it or taking photos, shemi will pop up and say what's that noise? What are you guys doing over there? And then quite often they meet their demise from that situation. I've got some photos of clients with chamois and tar in the same photo, because we were working on one when this one turned up and got there's a trip done, so but yeah it may not have spooked from the the helicopter, it might have been more curious yeah, well, I think the the good this thing had no idea we were there.
Speaker 2:so I think we were, were camped by one of the major rivers and the noise I've made a video of the trip, but the noise of the river is just deafening, raging, raging. So even when we were, you know, I was stalking into my first tar and I was only 30 yards from it but I could have been throwing rocks and it wouldn't have heard me. Like the river is roaring that loud that I think that you know the shammy with their curiosity and also this raging river made it quite. It wasn't easy, but it made it a lot more simple to stop on them, just because you could make a few mistakes and you know what the talus and the scree's like over there, like you hit one rock and it sends 40 down the the slope. But, um, yeah, that was a great trip. So we ended up with three, three tar and a chamois for the trip that's's a great first trip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of them is actually just down in here so you can't quite see it with the light. It's a bit light. You'll have to send us a photo, yeah, and we managed to bring them all back too, which was great. So we're in the hut. We boiled them out in the hut and got them all cleaned up and coming through customs. They were fantastic. Any skins coming through customs? They were, they were fantastic. Any skins. Did you bring any skins? No, we didn't bring the skins because, because they were only nannies and it was summer, the skins not super pretty, they weren't great. Um, we only had chance at one good bull, um, which mark was up on that one. Um, that that was a really pretty young bull, but the stalk didn't happen. He caught movement and took off, but that was probably the only one where we would have considered the skin. But I think then you have to have it treated and they send it over later. I think it's a bit more of an ordeal, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm pretty sure. At the moment you can't bring green skins back from New Zealand, which means just salted.
Speaker 2:That's what they said at customs. They were like, yep, you got the skins and whatnot, like, okay, no worries, you've done everything right with the skull, you've cleaned it. You know there's no goopy bits on it. Yeah, so that was a great trip. I mean, that was a confidence booster, with the archery as well, because you know it was okay. We went to new zealand and we actually shot tar with a bow like that. We can do this. That's pretty cool for a first trip.
Speaker 1:So, um, I remember talking about your local archery club. We had one just behind mom and dad's house and I just I wasn't joining. I just went down there to chat and they had just had their AGM and I said, you know, they were talking about it and they're like, oh, you hunt, oh, we've got some hunters in the club. Yeah, no, we give an award out each year for, you know, best bow hunter of the year. I was like, oh, that's pretty cool, we won last year. And they said, oh, george won he and I was like oh, and they're like did you hunt?
Speaker 1:I was like yeah yep, like I, two weeks prior, come back from shooting buffalo and and like I wasn't gloating or anything, but I was like, oh, like, anyway what turned out, I didn't have to pay to be a member, I would just jump the back fence at mom and dad's and shoot their targets while they weren't there yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think you find that the, the hunting clubs, other, sorry, the, the archery clubs, are very sport focused. You know, it's a whole, it's. It's like hunting and target shooting. You know, at the, the target range, it's like they're just a different beast. You know, and you, you seem to be either one or the other. Like you go to the archery range just to practice and to get your sighting in and then you go hunting, or you go to the archery club and then every now and then you shoot three rabbits.
Speaker 2:You know it's, you don't?
Speaker 1:the two worlds don't meet that well and the same with the rifle range. You go there to sight your gun in to go hunting, or you go to the rifle range and stay there because you're like your prs or your long range or whatever you're doing yeah, I think that's I mean.
Speaker 2:I think I think the well. I had to fulfill my obligations, of course, but I think the last time I sat down I was like you know, one, two, three, four yep. Next one one, two, three, four, yep. Gun sighted right.
Speaker 1:I'll go home, guys like I don't want to spend any more money tick, yeah, it's expensive throwing bullets around, yeah, yeah, what are you shooting with?
Speaker 2:um, mostly 30 06. So I've got a back in the 90s I was lucky enough to get a weatherby mark 5? Um for a very, very reasonable price. Which look if. If anyone's tempted to get a weatherby mark 5 for their first gun, like I would highly recommend not to do it because you just think that all actions are that smooth. So then when you buy something else you're like oh, this is actually rubbish. Um, but I've got a backcountry mark five and also a seven mil 08. So I sort of go between the seven mil 08 and the 30 06, depending what I'm going for. What's your bow? Uh, the bow is a hoyt ventum 30, 30, 31, so it's a fairly short axle to axle um. But yeah, I was lucky enough with tax last year that I thought, oh, what do we got?
Speaker 1:here. I think that's a ventum, yeah, ventum 34 34, yeah, so I must have.
Speaker 2:I've got the 30, which is a little bit shorter, um, which I thought with the state forest and all that and shooting through the pines. If that's what I'm going to do, like a shorter axle would be better, um, being the first bow, I don't know if it makes any difference. I don't know if 34 would make me a better, better bow hunter you might have shot over that stick instead of into it yeah, maybe, maybe I would have lifted up a little bit higher how did you get the bow?
Speaker 1:did you go to a bow shop or did you just buy online, or yeah.
Speaker 2:So I actually went to a bow shop, uh, here in sydney, um, no, no, so I actually couldn't get a bow through them. It was actually. It ended up being quite difficult. So I ended up going to another bow shop um, the other big one, the other big one, yeah, and they just ben since, yeah, if we can name stuff, yeah, um, I was on, I was on my lunch break and just rocked in there and the guys I'm looking at this and he goes, oh, like that one on the shelf over there. So they actually had it sitting there and I was like, oh, okay, I looked at my tax return and called the boss at home and went, oh babe, do you think she's like if you want to go for it? So we ended up doing the whole thing there on my lunch break and picked it up four hours later and we were ready to go, cool.
Speaker 2:So I've always believed that you know, buy once, cry once. I've always believed that you know, buy once, cry once. So spend as much money as you can on the things that you have to, you know, because you'll only end up buying it again six months later. You know, be it. You know rifle or wet weather, especially wet weather gear. You know packs, bows and all that you know. Just buy the good stuff to start with, like you won't regret it. Better to grow into something than grow out of it.
Speaker 2:Yes good point. So, yeah, that's why, with the bow, it was like, well, just buy something decent and hopefully that's it for the next 10 years. What pack?
Speaker 1:are you running?
Speaker 2:then the pack. I'm running a Alps oh what is it? I actually don't know. Nowps, alps, outdoors, hybridx, it's one of those. So it actually has a. I really like it. It's'll take a whole fellow buck on the meat shelf. It actually straps down really tight and then you can attach the take. The backpack comes completely off, so then you can attach the backpack over your meat. Um, the reason I like it so much is is the meats against your back, so the the weight is much better. I used to work in an outdoor store so you know fitting backpacks was a passion, so you know it was all about have the weight against your back.
Speaker 1:You know Well talk about that, then, because I've learned a little bit about it and seen. There was one shop I was in the States and I can't remember which one of the outdoors it was, but they had a model set up and it was an L-shaped model like a steel frame, and it was hinged at the bottom and what it was showing you was a bit like those ads on TV where they move the weight around on the caravan to see where the wheels sway. And this was moving the weight around in your backpack to show where the weight was on your body and how you know whether it tilted forward or it stayed upright and put it all back down on your hips. So can you talk about using your background then? What tips would you use for fitting a proper backpack?
Speaker 2:So I mean, one of the biggest problems I find when people pack their packs, especially if it's an overnight pack, you know the last thing you need is your backpack and your sorry, your tent and your sleeping bag.
Speaker 2:So they'll stuff all that down the bottom, which is large volume but very light. Then they'll have their stoves, then they'll have their water and their food all up the top. So you end up with this top heavy sway which ends up. You know, if you're walking for four hours with a top heavy pack, you know the amount of energy that you expend, you know, trying to compensate for that swaying motion of the pack. It's, it's exhausting. So what I tend to find the best way is is you take it, get rid of all the the packages, like get rid of the tent, the tent's folded flat down the very bottom, then the sleeping bags are on the sleeping bags on the side with lighter stuff stuffed on the side, and the weight is sitting flat on the bottom of the tent and all the way up the middle sort of, you know, against your spine. I find it best, um, and then you pack your light stuff, like your clothing and that at the top, so you keep all your light, your light stuff at the top of the pack. Um, that way it's, it's centered against your spine, so it's not pulling you back like you're saying in in that frame thing. You know, it's not pulling you back, it's not tipping you over to the side.
Speaker 2:Um, and having the pack fitted properly like that seems to be the biggest, the biggest problem. Um, one tip is you'll notice, you know, the you got the shoulder strap that wraps over like that, and then you have a strap that sits up like that. People crank it so hard and it actually pulls the shoulder strap back this way, which defeats the purpose, because then this part of the strap is not engaging in your shoulder, so all the weight's getting pulled here. So with that one, so with that one there, it should only be just snug enough that you take the weight up so there's no slack in it, but not hard enough that it pulls your shoulder piece away from the shoulder. So the shoulder piece should start here and wrap evenly all the way around the shoulder. That way you're getting the best weight distribution.
Speaker 1:For the people listening and not watching. There will be a. We'll probably. Oh yeah, sorry guys.
Speaker 1:No, that's fine, We'll do a little reel or a little video, but basically we're talking about a backpack that has a frame on it and the frame extends past your shoulders a little bit. I've got a what have I got here? My Kuyu pack does it. I've got a Stone Glacier pack that does it too, and yeah, it goes two or three inches past your shoulder and we're talking about the strap that goes from the top of that back down to the top of your shoulder piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can just tighten it to adjust it. The same thing about your waist. The waistband also has usually has one at the sides where you can pull the pack into the waistband and people crank that so hard that it creates a gap so you don't get that nice even coverage of the waistband. I mean. A good rule of thumb is, you know, inch below the belly button, that's where your buckles sit. Sure you cinch that up nice and tight. Then you just take those little side ones in a bit tighter and then you do your shoulder ones.
Speaker 1:Um, would you be able to give a bit of a percentage of how much weight should be on your hips and how much should be on your shoulders, say like a 70 30? Because I've seen people take you can take the shoulder straps off and then the pack still sort of sitting quite vertically with all the weight on the hips. Like, I feel like that's a bit wasted, because your shoulders aren't doing much.
Speaker 2:But your hips are the strongest part of the body, right, so you know this section of your body is where you can take the most weight. So, yeah, 70, 30 is probably a pretty good number to stick to, and that weight on your pelvis and things on your hips.
Speaker 1:That's downwards weight. So it's you know, and I'll give an example In here in front of me I've got a sliding window or a sliding door. The sliding door is not very heavy when it's like that, but as soon as you start to tilt it away from you it gets really heavy. But when it's up vertical, all the weight is straight down and still the same weight, but it's distributed very differently.
Speaker 1:So down on your pelvis and then it goes straight down through your legs and feet is a lot easier than carrying full load on your shoulders, like some of the cheaper packs yeah and look.
Speaker 2:The easiest way to do it and I've used to tell the customers this is you know, you do the waist belt up but leave the shoulder straps loose and put 15 kilos of weight in the pack and see how that feels. Now tighten up the shoulder straps but take the weight belt off and you'll very quickly see you know which one is actually needs to be carrying the most weight, and also the one that joins the two shoulder pieces across your chest, like the only reason that's really there is just to stop the shoulders from working their way off the sides of the shoulders. So you don't crank that. You just have it tight enough, just so the shoulders straps sit, you know, and don't wiggle their way off the shoulders. Um, I find that too. People crank that really, really hard, but then it's detrimental because it's pulling in, pulling the chest in and closing it off.
Speaker 1:One thing on the the buy once, cry once topic. But on the cheaper end of that and I see it with a couple of australian companies, new zealand companies, whatnot but the cheaper backpacks. I'm looking that way because I've got one next to me. It's a duffel bag type, so it's only filled from the top, which I'm not a fan of. On a longer trip it's fine for a day trip, that's fine. But on a longer trip I like bags that have access everywhere, panels everywhere, because you're saying you know you don't put the things at the top just because you physically need them first. That's fine for a day trip, but if you're on a longer hike and your lunch is heavy so it's at the bottom, you don't want to have to unpack everything from the top to get to it.
Speaker 1:You know just whip that little side zipper up, it's in there. It doesn't have to be in a separate compartment, but you can access the layers deeper down in the bag yeah, my alps.
Speaker 2:Alps Outdoors has a zip that you know runs in a crescent shape at the front of it.
Speaker 1:Right, so you can lay it on its back, open the whole thing up without disturbing everything Just open it up and then you can access almost from the bottom to the top. Yeah, the gutless method of a backpack, the gutless method. Yeah, just under the backstash.
Speaker 2:That's very handy, especially if you're just stopping for a quick you know lunch and you want to boil up some noodles or something you know. You can access all those heavy stove items and all that without having to, like you said, pull the whole backpack apart.
Speaker 2:Um, you just want to be really efficient too when you're doing those overnight hikes hydration you on the bladder uh I run a bladder um, but I'm I know a lot of people don't like the bladders because they don't know how much is left, which is I'm sort of kind of always monitoring, and you get to know it after a lot of trips, right, you get to know, sort of gauge how far your bladder is getting down. But of late I'm carrying a bladder and also a one litre Nalgene bottle because I've been using these protein shakes for lunch which I was using them all the way through New Zealand. I found I really, really helped, just cause you didn't carry so much bulk with you know muesli bars and you know Twiggy sticks and all nuts and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, one litre Nalgene and then a three liter hydration bladder in the back yeah, that's a pretty good combo right now.
Speaker 2:It backs you up too. So you know just. You know it's all about redundancy. So you know if you're easy to fill up a.
Speaker 1:They're actually quite hard to fill up in a river most bladders so it's easy to fill up, you know, nalgene and then tip it into it yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you pop your threere bladder and you're stuffed right.
Speaker 1:Snookered yeah, One on the bladder tip before we end it when I'm finished. So it runs over my shoulder and then out A couple of downsides with bladders, obviously like you're saying, not knowing how much is left, but it heats up, the water gets warm because it's on your back, or very close to your back, I find, and it also. I've got a. There you go. Here's what I prepared earlier for those that are. It's out because I'm drying it, but it's the Camelback and it's one of their fancy ones. It's got an insulated cork.
Speaker 1:I'm going to say it actually does very minimal to nothing. And then I've got, it's got a switch down here, the cover, and then everything is modular as well for washing it, all clips off. But um, my point was, when I have a drink I will blow back through the tube just until I hear the bubble come into the bag, so it empties your tube. Because what happens is the water sits in your tube and you lose be it 20 mil, 50 mil of water because it's hot and you spit your first mouthful out. Yep, it's wasted. So I just blow it back and empty it.
Speaker 2:I don't know how much is in there, I haven't, but I reckon it'll only be 20 or 30 mil I think the other benefit to that and I don't do that because of that reason, but I will start doing it because that's a great tip. But blowing the water back into the bladder actually inflates the bladder a little bit. So if you've got load in your bag, when you do bite on the valve you don't have to suck through it. It just forces the water through.
Speaker 1:So it's sort of a little free drink. No, that works too. I get that. You don't, because they're not easy to pull water through, and especially when you're huffing and puffing it's it's easy to blow through it and then let it push out absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean the amount of times you have a drink and then you're gonna stop to breathe because you're like I'm out of breath, like it was the hardest drink I've ever had in my life oh yeah, I'm not sure what yours is like either, but this, this camelback sorry for the noise, I'm dropping things it's got a really wide mouth with a handle, so you can actually hold, hold that and fill up through it, but you can actually drop a 600ml bottle of frozen water in there.
Speaker 1:And one, you've got a spare bottle. Two, keeps everything cold. And three, you can tip that water in there once it's fully defrosted. Just, you know the Mount Franklin bottles, and then you freeze them. They'll fit through the lid and you can. Actually, this has got a divider in it, this one, so you can fit uh, one down each side and you don't get much water in your bladder because you've got those in there but you've got cold water for a lot longer see always learning up.
Speaker 2:That's. That's a lot of tips.
Speaker 1:I never knew that. That's a lot of tips. One more, because I said we're gonna go, but now we're stuck on the bladders. Um, I'm just trying to think what it was. I had a good one. Now I can't remember, that's right if it tastes like put in the show notes. If it tastes like rubber, put uh lemon or rat.
Speaker 2:Let's bring juice in there first yeah, hydrolytes actually, I'm a massive fan of the hydrolytes when I'm out there as well. Yeah, just yeah, help that recovery.
Speaker 1:And yeah, they're another good one right out well, thanks for your time, dave. We've covered a lot of different topics tonight. It's been fun thanks for having me, it's been great, and I haven't asked you about your upcoming trips because I want you to go and enjoy those and tell us about them when you get back, because I'm looking forward to seeing and and hearing how this year pans out for you after last year's success yeah, hopefully it will.
Speaker 2:It's just going to be a beautiful armed bushwalk in the forest.
Speaker 1:With lots of photos of plants. Lots of photos of plants. I look forward to it Right. Have a good night. Thanks for listening and bye for now.
Speaker 2:See you Bye for now. Bye for now.