Barry O'Reilly is a business strategist and author of Unlearn and Lean Enterprise. He’s worked with top executives at Wells Fargo, American Airlines and Walmart to cut through complexity and make smart decisions in a changing world.
In doing this work, Barry has learned that most executives resist unlearning what they already know.
Listen as Barry talks about the importance of questioning assumptions, and the power of incentive systems to shape human behavior.
Barry O'Reilly is a business strategist and author of Unlearn and Lean Enterprise. He’s worked with top executives at Wells Fargo, American Airlines and Walmart to cut through complexity and make smart decisions in a changing world.
In doing this work, Barry has learned that most executives resist unlearning what they already know.
Listen as Barry talks about the importance of questioning assumptions, and the power of incentive systems to shape human behavior.
Intro: [00:00:00] From Silicon Valley, the heart of startup land, it's Getting2Alpha, the show about creating innovative, compelling experiences that people love. And now, here's your host, game designer, entrepreneur, and startup coach, Amy Jo Kim.
Amy: Barry O'Reilly is a business strategist and the author of Unlearn and Lean Enterprise.
Barry works with top execs at Wells Fargo American Airlines and Walmart to cut through complexity and help them make smart decisions in a changing world. In doing this work, Barry has learned that most executives resist unlearning what they already know.
Barry: Sometimes they look at you like you're crazy and they're like, what are you doing in here?
I'm running this massive company. All my metrics are green. We're a growing business. Like, why do we have to change? And honestly, like 70 percent of the time I just get booted out the door, but it was sort of also a filtering mechanism for me. [00:01:00] That's been really interesting for me is to find that type of person who, you know, is really sort of interested against things that go against what they know and exploring it.
Amy: Listen in as Barry and I talk about the importance of questioning assumptions and the enduring power of incentive systems to shape human behavior.
Welcome Barry to the Getting2Alpha podcast.
Barry: Oh, here's the pleasure to be here, Amy Jo. Thank you very much for having me.
Amy: We've had so much fun connecting. I think we, uh, come from somewhat different worlds, but we have so much overlap in our approach and every time I talk to you, I learn so much. And for those who aren't that familiar with you, just tell folks what business you run and give us an overview of what your focus is.
Barry: Yes, I probably have a little bit of what I'd call a portfolio career. I sit on the board of a number of startups, everything from no code platforms to okay, [00:02:00] or management tools. Uh, I do writing I've written a couple of books, lean enterprise, which was part of Eric Reese's lean series. And I'm primarily focused at large enterprises on learn.
Is a book I really wrote recently in the last two years. So I do some speaking around that, but the majority of my focus is generally coaching senior executives, Fortune 500 companies about how to bring new products, ideas, innovations to market inside their companies. And I've started my own business five years ago after doing consulting around that.
And moved to San Francisco and I've been having a little bit of fun since then.
Amy: How did you first get interested in design and tech as you were growing up and figuring out who you are and what you wanted to do?
Barry: So, you know, uh, it's funny, I went to university and it was called management information systems.
So I thought I was going to learn a bit about management and a little bit of tech. Uh, and it turned out it was actually a programming course. So I was sitting in the first class and the lecturer spun up Java and started writing it on, I literally [00:03:00] thought I was in the wrong class and asked to clarify if I was in the right one.
So it turned out I was actually in an engineering course and that was a bit of a surprise for me, but I liked it and it resonated with me. I liked the problem solving aspect. to it, I enjoyed Max and you know, and that sort of got me started. And my first job was in San Francisco, working for citysearch.com.
Like back in the good old days when they launched and our number one competitor was Zip2. Do you remember them?
Amy: Not really.
Barry: Zip2 was Elon Musk's first company. So we were going to actually merge with them. I always joke, I don't know what happened to Elon, but I'm obviously on your podcast. So like, it gave me this great opportunity building stuff and while I enjoyed engineering, I actually got more into the problem side of stuff.
I was really curious about, well, how do we know we're solving the right problem? What is the need? And that sort of drifted me more into product focus roles. There wasn't really a product manager job then. I'm not a designer, but I appreciate good design. Designers get annoyed if I try and make designs, but you know, I'm [00:04:00] inspired by so many different areas.
And, you know, it's not that I necessarily feel I have deep, deep expertise, but I've always been interested in other fields to learn about them, what's behind them. You know, ultimately like try and build things and that's really how I sort of found in my way in anything but a straight line to here.
Amy: So you mentioned that you work with senior executives and mental managers, helping them create innovative products and bring those to life in their organizations.
What do you find are the problems that you most run into as you're doing it? What do you find are some of the Ideas and assumptions that they need to unlearn.
Barry: Yeah, well, well, well, thank you very much for asking that question, Amy Jo. That's very timely. It's been, you know, Whitley and Enterprise, it just gave me this sort of phenomenal opportunity to meet leaders in companies of all shapes and sizes, trying to do [00:05:00] new things, you know, and it's funny, the unlearn piece really came from, was trying to teach these really gifted people.
New things is hard. What was even harder was getting them to let go of their sort of existing, um, behavior. Because most of it had made them successful to date when people tie so much of their identity to their competency. And when you're talking to these senior leaders about the way you're currently working is not going to help you be successful when you're trying to create new things, as opposed to optimizing or scaling things, you know, sometimes they look at you like you're crazy.
Oh, and they're like, what are you doing in here? I'm running this massive company. All my metrics are green. We're a growing business. Like, why do we have to change? And honestly, like 70 percent of the time I'd just get booted out the door, but it was sort of also a filtering mechanism for me, the leaders who were sort of like, Oh, this is interesting.
That's different. Well, why are you saying that? Those are often the ones I find that really are curious, you know, like when they hear information that's [00:06:00] counter to their existing view of the world, they ask, like. Tell me more rather than you're wrong and get out the door. That's been really interesting for me is to find that type of person who, you know, is really sort of interested against things that go against what they know and exploring it.
And I think that's kind of unique, but I think that's also the type of characters you're really interested in. Looking for so many companies are designed to remove risk at every opportunity, big governance processes, big business cases, funding boards, committees are designed by committee, committee, committee.
So nothing ever gets done when you can see something is interesting, think big, but actually start small and test it, explore it, see if there is an opportunity there, like learn your way through. They're the kind of people I'm always searching for, and I find I work best with, if they're willing to sort of explore uncertainty, explore the edge of their skills, give it a go, try, struggle, get better, all these [00:07:00] things are what I'm looking for, and when they're not there, that's a signal for me as well, where they will need help, and what might be holding them back.
Amy: You wrote two books, which clearly, is part of how people will come to you, they'll see your books, understand that, maybe a workshop around it. But I mean, writing a book is a monumental thing to do and writing a second book is like having a second baby. You have to kind of forget how hard it was. What motivated you to write your second book?
What was the spark that you're like, Oh, I gotta do this?
Barry: Well, there's, there's a couple of things. Like one was the insight of people that the challenge was not learning new things, but on learning behavior. That was the penny that dropped for me. And part of it was like, for me to get outside my comfort zone, you know, my first book I coauthored with, uh, Jez Humble, who wrote Continuous Delivery, which is probably one of the seminal books of the software development industry.
He also coauthored Mixcelerate as well with Gene Kim and Dr. Nichelle. You know, and, um, Joanne Woleski, who was [00:08:00] our head of risk and compliance, right? So it was a cross functional team, very different backgrounds, and we did it together. And collaboration was hard, but we got it done. But it was a bit of both.
There was the motivation is, could I sort of challenge myself and try and write a book on my own? That felt like the next interesting mountain to try and climb. I love your books. I'm recommending them to people like all the time. But books are not iterative for people who like to experiment and test and change a book.
It's probably the most waterfall ish type process you ever go through. You put it out into the world and it's there and, and people see it for the first time, but you've been thinking about it for like three years. Then it goes into the market and you learn. Um, and then you ideas, you change it. I'm, I'm afraid to read my books because I know if I look at them all, I'm like, I don't think that anymore.
I actually learned some new stuff. This is all wrong. Ah, you know, so there's a whole load of stuff that goes on there and you're smiling as well, cause you know, so yeah, that, that's really what sort of inspired me a little bit of challenge, a little bit of insight that [00:09:00] struck me. Will I ever write another one again?
Who knows? People say I've not given birth, but you know, but maybe it's like running marathons for me and it's a challenge, but it's very rewarding. I love the research. I love speaking to people. What I learn along the way, I feel like it's an encapsulation of my best thinking at that moment in time. And it inspires me to keep looking for new things.
And that's really the mechanism for a book. I'm dyslexic. I never dreamed of being a writer. I don't see myself as a writer. I just feel like it's me bundling up, uh, a retrospective of what I've learned and hopefully sharing that with other people. That maybe helps them, encourages them. But I'm curious for you though, like what, what about yourself?
Like you've, you've written two books. You're a big content creator. You do it in lots of different shapes, forms, and sizes. What's inspiring you to keep doing it?
Amy: It's a great question. It's a feedback loop with my audience. So you're right. A book is a moment in time, but now we have so many channels to [00:10:00] communicate and what ultimately inspires me is continuous learning.
I think it's very similar to you. It's how I learn, and I'm completely addicted to learning and improving and making progress and changing. So you can't really do that without feedback. You can't do that without testing and iterating and rubbing your assumptions.
It's also the way I run my business. I have several programs where I work with people all over the world. And so my business is very, very. International at this point because of the content outreach because YouTube and Twitter and my book being published in multiple languages and et cetera. So I'm very engaged with supporting other people.
I'm very engaged with leveling them up in a meaningful way that has a huge impact on their life. That's helping them do a project better or explain something better. They're an instructor or become a certified game thinking professional. We have a certification program [00:11:00] with about 30 certified professionals now that we've leveled up.
So I'm very invested in that. And that's a lot of what drives my content production. It's a way to speak directly and also get feedback. You know, did people like that? Did they respond to it? It seems so clear, but this person had this question and you're like, Oh, of course I need to explain that better. I want to steer back and talk about one of my favorite topics, which is incentives.
And I know that you speak about incentives and you posted something related to your book about corporate incentives. If the bonus structures aren't aligned, all the mumbo jumbo speak and telling people you want them to do stuff, they're going to ultimately do what they get bonus for. And as a game designer and a product designer, we deal in incentives all the time.
It's something that a lot of people misunderstand when they fall in love with gamification. They think external incentives, you can just kind of sprinkle them, etc. And incentives are complex. They're usually a combo of [00:12:00] external and internal. But they're hugely important for any kind of system design and any kind of change management, really aligning your incentives and understanding the incentives that play at different levels, financial, behavioral, and all the rest.
So I want to understand from you how you think about that. And I'd love to hear a story that you've seen up close and personal that really illustrates what you've learned and what everyone listening can learn. about how to align incentives.
Barry: Yeah, absolutely. Happy to share some examples from two financial entities I work with, Wells Fargo and Capital One.
This is sort of a classic story of the trap that can get created and then how you can actually use them for a positive effect. So like most people would probably be actually aware of Wells Fargo because they have had to pay the biggest corporate fine in U. S. financial history for the actually poor incentive design.
So [00:13:00] most people, I think, get trapped in this idea, and it goes way, way back to like the industrial era. Most incentives in companies are designed on this principal agent model. It's the idea that a principal hires an agent to perform a task, and they pay the agent for performing the task. And it sort of exists everywhere, from manager to employee, you know, doctor to patient.
And it's all based on contingent relationships. If you do this, you will get that. Right? That, that's sort of what it comes down to. And when you're in a company, if you do the work, you will get paid. Simple as that. Now, um, Wells Fargo got trapped in a classic problem that most people do with incentive design is that they're not good at describing hard to measure outcomes.
Most people just measure easy to do activities as a way of measuring success. This is a trap that Wells Fargo fell into. They wanted to sort of demonstrate. How we could create a more performant business, how we could demonstrate that we were getting [00:14:00] more customers into our business, very classic product manager, I want to increase our customers.
So the way that they did that is instead of looking at a hard to measure outcome, they looked at a really easy to measure activity. They started measuring it in terms of the number of new customer accounts that were open. So that's what we would demonstrate that customers actually loved our products is they would open new accounts with us.
And they put a huge bonus on people if they could hit their targets. So your target was to open a hundred new accounts. Every person had to do that. And you get a big bonus if you get a hundred accounts open. So initially it was great. Loads of accounts suddenly started getting opened. You know, people would find new customers and, and they would open those accounts.
And then the easy picking started to disappear. And, and people were on big bonuses to make sure that those a hundred accounts were open. So what starts happening? Well, then people start finding ways to work around the system and they started opening fake accounts so they could hit their numbers, so they [00:15:00] could hit their targets and get their bonuses.
And this sort of behavior went on and on and on until they were actually caught and then fined for this, right? Because they were trying to measure hard to measure behavior, like increasing customer satisfaction with your product. With an easy to measure metric of just a count of opens, and then putting a significant weight of bonus on you hitting a target that was set, right?
They set themselves up for potentially people having to get their bonus. They're, they're going to corrupt that sort of system, no matter how in good intent it was designed under. But, but this is what people do. We, we measure easy to measure tasks and think that they're going to lead to hard to measure outcomes.
This is sort of everywhere from transformation. How many people have we trained? Not are we delivering our software faster, more frequent, more often. It's everywhere. These sorts of, uh, problems. Design. That's really what it comes down to. I'll give another example then of working with Capital One and they were a hugely [00:16:00] outcome focused organization.
And Rich Fairbank is the CEO and founder of the company knew that they wanted to try and digitally transform the way the business operates and how many people out there are working on some sort of digital transformation initiative. And if you ask them, well, what are, what are the measures of success?
How will you know you've digitally transformed? Most people just go blank. They're like, we've got a mobile app. We've more customers, like they don't have good answers for this, you know? And so really what is about with the leadership is you have to start helping them describe success in changes in customer behavior that lead to a business impact.
And that's hard. People aren't used to describing outcomes to know that they would have digitally transformed, never mind quantifying the measuring them. So that's what we did, you know, got rich and the team start thinking about different ways to describe success. And the way to do that is you get people to tell stories in two to three years time, what would be success if your organization had digitally transformed?
And they'll start telling you, they'll [00:17:00] start talking about the changes in behavior. Like, people will be using our product more. We'd increase our rate of innovation. They'd be reinvesting more of their current account back into other products and services that we had. And people would say, this is the greatest place to work.
They'd extend our contracts to stay longer. Like, all the people have all these answers and then it's really just like picking them. So capital one went for like an increased percentage of customer reinvestment with the bank. So I'm going to jump it up 20 percent or an increase rate in product innovation.
So what percentage of new products would come to market and what percentage of that revenue would count for new products introduced in the last two years, really crisp definitions of what success is and. Then when you start to think about these measures is they're not treated as targets. They're treated as directional that you want to travel in.
And then people are encouraged then to share where they're at. Okay, and this is probably the biggest problem in corporate everywhere. Transparency is a double edged sword. If you were in a company where [00:18:00] your targets are tied to your performance reviews and your wage, people get very, very worried about showing the real information.
If they're on a product and it's underperforming, they're afraid it's going to jeopardize their bonus. And in some companies, especially CEOs, a huge percentage of their remuneration is actually bonus based. In some instances, it's up like to 70, 80%. You always hear about these like, Steve Jobs only got paid a dollar.
Yeah, but guess how much stock he got, right. And so like, these are just examples of how much pressure is on executives. That the bonus is all down to these sometimes performance and targets. That's actually how the market works. And then they propagate that behavior down into teams. Ben Holstrom won the Nobel prize for economics in 2016 for debunking how paper performance actually limits innovation and companies not accelerates it.
And yes, 95 percent of the industry are still using paid per performance as a [00:19:00] way to manage innovation in their companies. So a lot of this stuff was actually helping leaders like recast their entire incentive systems and reducing the amount of financial remuneration. Actually good incentive design.
You only need a very, very small amount of financial. Benefit, people are actually much more interested in job design. And COVID is such a great example of this at the moment. Some people value being able to work from home. Some people want to pick their kids up and drop them off. Some people will actually value that there's good training programs that they can develop new skills and constantly learn.
Not everybody wants to get paid a 20 percent bonus at their salary every year. Those days are gone. You know, and I think, um, more and more, you'll sort of see a lot of that.
Amy: So you mentioned something and I want to see if you've got any like tips and tricks for folks. It's really important when you're doing incentive design, this is a subtext of what you just said.[00:20:00]
It's very important to know your audience and know what they care about. So. It's tricky sometimes designing. You, you, if you just ask people what they want and you build what they want, that's bad. Like that's not actually how you design, partly because you're often building systems and systems interact, but people are just not necessarily that good at telling you.
So have you learned any tricks along the way in your work for understanding what customers want? And, you know, maybe techniques that you use or that you coach or that you've seen other people use to great effect.
Barry: One of my favorite things to do is to ask the disconfirming questions. Often when you ask somebody like, Hey, do you like listening to music?
And everyone's like, Oh yeah, I love listening to music. It's great. I'm out at nightclubs all the time. I'm, I'm always on the dance floor. I think people want to tell you stories to, you know, to be liked. That's, that's what people want to do. They want to tell you sometimes what you want to hear. And so often [00:21:00] when people do that, one of the little questions I always like to ask there is, what are some of the problems with that?
Like what are some of your struggles that happen when you're doing that to start getting them to sort of open up more about what their problems are and go deeper into them. And, and then I often hear like, Oh, this is a great place to work. Everybody loves working here. And I'll be like, great. Yeah. So, you know, how many new people have you hired in the last, how many have left?
And why did they leave? When people tell you a happy path. I always try to recognize it and then start to ask questions that could disconfirm what they've just said a moment ago, because that starts surfacing more things. And then when they're like, Oh, well, actually, yeah, somebody had to leave recently.
I'm like, really, what happened? What happened when they had to leave? What was the sort of trigger points that happened? Were you involved in that? And, and I think when you can get to a point where people have this like deeply emotional connection to a moment in that story, and you can like hit a question there.
That's your goldmine right there. That's where [00:22:00] people start talking like really about the moment that they were in at the time and the action, listening for verbs, like what were they doing? What were they feeling? What were they seeing? All these sorts of things is where I really try to get down to. And I use those techniques as well, whether I'm interviewing people for products or I'm interviewing people about doing diagnostics in companies, like when they're trying to find out why they aren't innovating fast, it's like asking people, when you have a new idea and you try to bring it to life in the company, what happens, you know, get, get people to tell those stories and then you'll be amazed to hear them say, Oh, you know, we never bring any new ideas to that.
And what's the problems behind that, oh, it's like really hard to do with funding here. I have to write a huge big business process or I have so much work going on. I have no time to think about anything else. People will start to give you these great narratives. And I think it's just like helping, guiding them to that moment of real sort of impact for them, where they've been there and they've been frustrated and angry or upset or [00:23:00] happy.
And so, that's pretty much the techniques I try to use.
Amy: That's great. Bob Mesta, who's a Jobs-To-Be-Done guru, and he's been on our channel recently, calls that the struggling moment. And I've been really resonating with that concept. It's so integral to the way we work as well. And His insight that I thought was so valuable is, you know, there's a lot of people that will tell you a lot of things in an interview, and there's people that will just complain and complain about stuff, but there's people that will tell you about their struggling moment and then what they did about it.
And those people are different. Those people are the people that are going to take action. He talks a lot about what gets people to change, what gets people to switch, what gets people to buy, what gets people to try a new tool. Some people hit that moment and just complain. Some people hit that moment and really start taking action.
Finding those struggling moments in your interviews is a goldmine.
Barry: I know, right on.
Amy: So what are you seeing that's new and [00:24:00] interesting these days in your world? What patterns, maybe you see it in a few different conversations you have, maybe it's a trend that you're following. Certainly COVID has impacted a lot of things, but you have a unique perspective just given who you talk to and the world you live in.
What are you seeing?
Barry: Yeah, so this is serendipitous, this moment, because this morning. I was sitting with a startup who have developed in game simulations to teach people new skills. So, we're on live. I had my VR headset on today, going into a gaming world, where we had designed a whole load of challenges for people to try solve and tackle together.
And have psychometrics in place to understand behaviors that we were trying to see how people performed and did and used. And it was a great, really interesting way for me to start thinking about instead of coaching 20 people, how can I coach 20, 000 people to unlearn all at the same [00:25:00] time in a game play?
It was almost serendipitous when you were like, Oh, I'm going to speak to Amy Jo Kim this afternoon and I got to talk to her about this. Um, because I think that is one of the things that is so exciting to me is all the research is showing that working in virtual worlds, putting small little stressors on people outside their comfort zone, very safe environment, But the retention and the learning by doing like, like taking activity and applying theory in these sort of simulated environments, the retention is like going through the roof on this stuff.
And to me, that is so interesting because sitting in a room and listening to theory for two days and getting your Harvard badge, like great, pay your $10,000, have a good time, but you're not really going to learn a huge amount. You know, you might meet some nice people or you can pay in 20 bucks, jump on a headset, spend an hour or two like testing and learning new skills in a real life environment and retain so much more, so much new insight about yourself.
And I think that is [00:26:00] super exciting to me. I've been delivering on learn workshops already in virtual environments through Verbella and various other platforms. But actually this was super immersive today. And, you know, technology still sucks. The startup was obviously just selling me on the future of everything.
And that was another to your other question. Like when I asked him, what's the problems with your product? Nobody wanted to answer. They were, they just wanted to talk about the future of the industry. So. You know, I think that's sort of lightened me up a lot at the moment is what that space is going to look like.
So I, I'm just kind of curious what your thoughts on that too, because the way we can learn through games, leadership in games, like a seven year old can probably lead like hundreds of people in World of Warcraft. So it's sort of very, very interesting to me.
Amy: There's so much potential, but you really have to match what you're doing to the context and not just throw technology at it.
I've worked with a lot of startups over the last 10, 15 years, who got very [00:27:00] excited about virtual worlds and putting everything into 3D worlds. And there's a lot of stuff that just doesn't make any sense in there. So it really has to need it because it's more overhead. For instance, with VR, once you decide to do VR, Only people with a headset can do it.
What dramatically limits your accessibility and cross platform ability, et cetera, at this point, but at the same time, gaming and virtual worlds and being able to deliver. Learn by doing experiences within a virtual environment that feels real. That is hugely exciting and unlimited. The 3d world won't solve bad education.
You still have to have good education. You have to have good content. You have to have a good lesson plan. And it's actually harder because you have to now design a good narrative. TRIPP VR is something I'm just a huge fan of. Nanea Reeves, who was, worked in mobile gaming as an exec for years. It's essentially a mental [00:28:00] health VR app for healing and mindfulness and all kinds of things.
It's incredibly well-designed. She's iterated the hell out of it. Talk about running lots of experiments and it's really working and the people that use it have a great need for it. It's, you know, end of life cancer patients, people really struggling with deep mental health issues, people really dealing with trauma in their lives.
It has a real impact on them. Companies have licensed it. And so if your need is great enough, yeah, you'll put on the headset, you'll get the headset. But I also see hugely exciting things going on with virtual worlds that aren't just games, but are experiences around and inside of games. Already we see so many people that play Among Us are having a metagame experience in Discord.
Chatting and talking and that's what AOC did and, and the streaming that goes on on top of games is a whole experience that really enriches the ecosystem. And then you look at the Lil Nas X concert in Roblox, that's a harbinger of [00:29:00] the future. Now, Roblox is a gaming platform. It's not just a game. It's a platform where there's lots of games.
Fortnite itself is a game that keeps developing, but these gaming platforms have figured out how to now deliver another kind of entertainment and they're experimenting with, well, how do you do that? You don't necessarily just do it exactly the same, just like in the very early days of movies, when it started as film stage plays.
Cause that's where movies came from. And then they figured out long shots and crane shots and special effects and all the things that make movies, movies. We're going through that now with live entertainment in these worlds and with education. And I'm just thrilled about that. They can make more money, less travel, more accessible.
And what's super exciting to me as a designer is seeing the innovations that they do. For instance, in the Lil Nas X concert in Roblox. It was [00:30:00] clearly pre-recorded, his movements and the singing, but they built a level, they built a really elaborate level for the concert. that you could explore, have scavenger hunts in, you could be on the stage and they had like these trampolines, you could go play it behind the stage.
So you could go to that same concert three times or four times and have a different experience each time because you had the autonomy to explore the level while the concert was going on. Mind blowingly creative. Approach totally worked. I'm like waiting for the next one.
So did you go to any of these concerts?
Barry: These are the things that sort of are really interesting to me, right? It's like how all the constraints change, how many people can fit in a stadium and hear the music when they're there? Like a million people can't do it, right? But there's something kind of really interesting. About how technology changes the constraints, whether it's like people in a [00:31:00] play, and now you've got special effects and different camera angles, like technology changes the constraints, probably some problems are the same, opens up a different set of problems, but that's, what's really interesting to me and all these problems, you're even talking about mental health, education, health, like these are real problems.
And I hope the technology can actually. open up and democratize and make it more equitable for a lot of those problems to be solved. That barriers to great education at the moment is a financial constraint. How can you change that? What's also interesting about this is, you know, if you're the best person in the world at something, you should be teaching the whole world how to do that thing.
And technology allows that to happen. I'm excited about what is going to sort of bubble up from these sort of different platforms, these tool techniques and. It's all new. Like nobody knows all the answers to this stuff. I just love like playing around in the mess and figuring out where it's going to go and [00:32:00] what these things mean.
And that's what I enjoy, you know? And I think that's, that's how I can help people honestly. And the way it shows up in, in business worlds, it's just generally senior leaders. In high stakes environments, helping them collaborate and push through and build something like that's, that's my, that's what I do.
And so I'm sort of excited about all these different trends and technologies. I, I don't know where we're all going to end up. I can't do them all. I can't know them all. Uh, but I do like experiencing as much as I can and yeah, that's what really motivates me at the moment.
Amy: That's fantastic. So Barry, it's such a pleasure.
I could talk to you for hours. I love hearing your perspective and what you do. Definitely let us know where we can reach you.
Barry: Yeah. So I'm on the internet at all good handles, barryoreilly.com. So please, if you are interested in continue this conversation, just reach out.
Amy: It's always a pleasure.
Outro: Thanks for listening to Getting2Alpha with Amy Jo [00:33:00] Kim.The shows that help you innovate faster and smarter. Be sure to check out our website, getting2alpha.com. That's getting2alpha.com for more great resources and podcast episodes.