Dr. Julie Gurner: Unlocking Peak Performance

Dr. Julie Gurner is an executive performance coach with a Doctorate in Psychology. She has coached top-percentile executives, talent, and teams operating in fast-paced, competitive environments for over ten years, helping her clients unlock peak performance. She publishes the Ultra Successful newsletter on Substack.

Check out the video here: https://youtu.be/YGFEerM6lwM

Transcript

Amy Jo: [00:00:20.6] Dr. Julie Gerner is an executive performance coach with a background in psychology, but what she does isn't therapy.

She helps top executives make better decisions by regulating their emotions and learning how to listen without getting defensive. 

Julie Gurner: My job is to really challenge these people who are often not challenged by anyone. 

If you're doing coaching, every meeting that you have, has tremendous influence on that individual. 

if we end up in a meeting and the CEO walks away and makes a really important big decision, that moves the needle in the bottom line of their company, even 2%, that's a million-dollar meeting that you've just had.

Amy Jo: [00:01:00] Join us as we dive into the world of high-performance coaching and find out what it takes to become a highly effective leader. 

Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Gerner. I've been excited to talk to you for weeks and weeks. I really love your newsletter.

Julie Gurner: Thank you so much. I'm really excited about, starting the ultra-successful newsletter. I think it's, something I've been really wanting to do for a bit, and I appreciate you reading it. We had such a great conversation prior to this chat, so I was excited to speak with you further as well.

Amy Jo: So, we're gonna get into your background, how you do your current practice, your top tips, repeat performance, all that great stuff. But since we mentioned your newsletter, uh, which is ultra successful, we've linked it in the description. How did you start writing a newsletter?

Because I believe you're over 70,000 subscribers. Is that true?

Julie Gurner: I don't have 70,000, I have thousands of subscribers. I, I'm not quite to 70,000 yet. I've only [00:02:00] been out for maybe two and a half months. So 

Amy Jo: Oh my lord.

Julie Gurner: Yeah, I do have quite a bit of subscribe. We're still one of the top business newsletters on Substack and our growth has been fast, but I look forward to getting to 70,000.

Hopefully that's a number that I get to sooner than later. but your question was, how did I start out just kind of writing this newsletter? I think that as a coach, you really are behind the scenes and people are infinitely curious about what you do and how you do it and what types of work happens behind the scenes.

And so this was a way of really scaling impact. I know that a lot of people, I only have so many spaces to work with me personally. and I, I feel as though this is a way of really scaling that impact. I give people a very low cost to pay. it's 999 and they can have insights coming every single week.

That pull from a moment of me sitting with a high performer and kind of walk through what makes that unique and, how we move forward and, the concepts [00:03:00] of, of, that they can apply to their own life. So, I hope that it gets people excited. It gets them from, maybe zero to 10, and then maybe when they get to 10, they can go out and hire someone, to kind of help them in the next stages of their journey when they have those types of resources.

But it was all about scaling impact and reaching people who, sometimes you get inquiries, and you just can't speak with everyone. And also recognizing that not everyone's going to be at a price point where they can spend that time with you and, and come in the door.

Amy Jo: Absolutely. So, one of the things that I think many, coaches, leaders, creators, struggle with is what form to reach people in. Some people start a community, some people start a newsletter, some people start a YouTube channel. How did you choose the newsletter?

Julie Gurner: That's a really great question. You know, I have had failures of format, so I'm, I'm gonna put that out there first, right? A few years back I decided, hey, I'm gonna try doing something where I have an open office hour. And it was [00:04:00] before Twitter had, like, Twitter spaces or any of those things.

So, I was gonna do a live video where people could come in for one hour every week and ask me any question that they wanted. And I thought, oh, this is such a great idea. Gives people access. and I couldn't have been more wrong. The Twitch format is, I think it, in retrospect it's a very obvious why it was wrong.

people don't naturally go to Twitch. it's a platform that over a certain age you're probably not going to be as familiar with. it just wasn't my tribe and I did it for one year. I was very religious about it and, nobody really showed up very much or very frequently.

So, I think that you have to continue to be open and experiment and find platforms that are going to work for you. For me, I like writing, so that already taps into something that I enjoy doing. Twitter is a writing-based platform. It's something I enjoy doing. And so I was able to really connect with people through something that was more organic for me and experiment with some different platforms and [00:05:00] find something that worked for me.

For others. I'm sure LinkedIn would be fantastic because, there are a lot of people in business on LinkedIn, looking for coaches, talking about coaches. but that platform has not been as beneficial for me. I think that Twitter, for some reason, it's fast, it's responsive, it's a writing platform where people are engaged.

It's like a, a cocktail party, right? So, I functioned well in that setting, LinkedIn and, and some of these other platforms I wasn't as good at. And so, you just begin to go with where the feedback is and I was getting great feedback on Twitter. I doubled down on that and and it grew very nicely.

So, I've been really pleased with it.

Amy Jo: That's wonderful. So, you and I share a background in psychology and then we've gone on to do non-traditional things with that background. Right. What first drew you into studying psychology?

Julie Gurner: Interesting. So I started off, I've always been a very meticulous and kind of person who loves solving problems. I was the kid who used to take apart their father's [00:06:00] watch and try to put it back together. So, I initially went to college, a pre-med, intending to be a surgeon. I enjoy that kind of, meticulous focus, that type of thing.

So, I took the pre-med courses and I was doing fine in them, but I found them really dry and it wasn't at all what I had hoped it would be. I had to take an elective, I took philosophy, I loved it. But, you can't be a philosopher and sit around and, just think for a living. So I decided, I really love medicine and I love, kind of the analytical nature of it and I love philosophy and thinking. So I took a couple of psychology courses and I absolutely loved it. So I ended up getting into psychology kind of through the side door. I guess it wasn't my initial venture. but it ended up being better, because I can still solve problems.

I can still get in there and do my meticulous work just in a very different way that happens to be cognitive.

Amy Jo: Interesting. So from studying psychology and you went ahead and got a PhD, correct. [00:07:00] Was that what, what kind of psychology were you specializing in during your PhD?

Julie Gurner: So, I have a Psy. D., a doctorate in clinical psychology, and my expertise is in adult psychopathology and forensics. So, I initially started in a very different path. And I worked everywhere from a level five supermax facility to, doing forensic evaluations for, mental state at the time of the offense if someone qualifies for the insanity defense, competency to stand trial.

And, started off very traditionally in psychology, ended up doing some things, in hospitals and in academics as well. but that was my starting point in specialization.

Amy Jo: Wow. I only learned about what forensic psychology is from the Depp-Heard trial. I don't know if you followed that at all.

Julie Gurner: Yeah, that was an unfortunate trial.

Amy Jo: That was quite something. There was a forensic psychologist, Shannon Curry, who I was very impressed with, and she described what a forensic psychologist does, and it's like, wow, had [00:08:00] no idea.

Amy Jo: So, you did some of that too.

Julie Gurner: It, it was a very different, yes. And I, I was not involved in cases so much in domestic disturbances and disputes, thankfully. I think those are very, very messy. Mine were much more clear cut, around, testimony. It has a very strong ethics component. So I really enjoyed that.

There's a very strong separation there between, in, in forensic evaluations, especially mental state at the time of the offense. People tell you the entire span of those moments, like, throughout the duration of the crime. And you cannot testify as to their guilt or innocence.

You can only say what their mental state was like. So you watch a trial play out, knowing kind of the, the truth behind the curtain and whatever outcome they come to, they come to, but it preserves the integrity of the evaluation.

Amy Jo: That's fascinating. 

Julie Gurner: It's wild. 

Amy Jo: You evolved from a clinical psychologist, trained, working in the field doing these, pretty intense things into a [00:09:00] performance coach for executives, companies, startups. Let's start with what's the key difference between a clinical psychologist or therapist and what they do and what a performance coach.

Julie Gurner: Yeah. That is such a good question because I think that that's a, a great area of confusion for a lot of people. So think about it this way. a psychologist takes people from illness to health, so you know, illness to health. And then, a performance coach takes relatively healthy people to, from health to kind of optimization, getting through sticking points, really helping through overcoming obstacles and blocks, and helps them become their best self.

So you have this, there is no illness if there are illnesses in my clients that I detect, if they're struggling with. Anything from an addiction to a true, like clinical depression, I will refer them to a psychologist and oftentimes I will have clients who have, are seeing a therapist and also work with me.

But I do not address anything clinical whatsoever. And I feel fortunate that I'm [00:10:00] able, trained well enough that I'm able to spot it so that clients who may be struggling with that are able to find somebody who can help that immediately.

Amy Jo: Tell us about how you developed your coaching style there. You were working in prisons, being a forensic psychologist with your training, you evolved into a coach. How did you develop and find your own style and your own focus? What were some of the maybe experiences in your life that really shaped that?

Okay. So my coaching style is really based for me and I hope that others take this approach if, if they decide to go into this field, on what is really natural for me. And I'm naturally a very analytical, very cognitive, very dispassionate person in how I operate, which is probably why I initially thought about surgery as a path for me. So I think that for me, I loved cognitive theory. It resonates with me. It's how I think about the world personally. It's how I think about it in theory. It it, so for [00:11:00] me, that made sense. whether it was in my training or how I think about the world in my personal life, I believe that how we think is the origin to all, human behavior and healthy people.

Julie Gurner: So, cognitive approaches also move progress quickly. We don't spend a lot of time in the past. I, I don't spend a lot of time in the past at all. I don't find that useful. I think it often puts people in a very weak, position cognitively. Like I don't wanna take people back to areas where they were functioning, more poorly and, and stay there for long periods of time.

I think they're good as reference points, but not to kind of move people ahead. and I also find that cognitive changes really, impact all areas of their life. So if, for example, a client learns how to deal with stress, far and far more effectively. They're gonna deal with stress better at home.

They're gonna , deal with stress better with their kids. They're gonna deal with stress better in the workplace, and that affects compounds, right? So you're not bringing in challenges at home. You're, you're reacting better at work. Like, this isn't for me. It's a, it lifts all boats. So, for taking a cognitive [00:12:00] approach, made sense for me, it's what I believe.

It's how I think personally. And,it's how I operate in the world. I'm probably a very hyper logical person, much to the dismay of many people in my life. But that's how I operate myself. So I think you have to dig into what's natural for you. otherwise it's gonna feel fake and it's gonna be hard to extend how you work with a client if it's not truly how you operate yourself, at least in this field, because you're putting together.

information so quickly, you have to be able to do that in a style that, that is natural for you, or it's gonna be very challenging. Like, I can't have a rubric in front of me to be putting information together. I have to be assimilating it in a way that makes sense for me. so that's how I, that's how I move forward.

Amy Jo: For, for those who might not be familiar, what is cognitive?

Julie Gurner: So, I mean, cognitive theory, it, it just kind of breaking it down really to its nuts and bolts believes that, events in the world happen. they are [00:13:00] fairly, I don't, I don't wanna say neutral, but, all events are what they are and how we think about them, those events, changes our experiences in the world.

So, even with traumatic and, and terrible events, with company failures, with, companies collapsing, losing funding, running out of runway, like whatever it happens to be. That it's how you think about those moments that is going to make, all the difference in the world. Because how you think about it is then how you feel and then how you feel determines how you behave, right?

So, cognitive theory really kind of follows that through. And, and that's a very brief and general description on, how it works.

Amy Jo: So it's a lot about reframing and your attitude and how you interpret events.

Julie Gurner: Absolutely. Well said. It's how you interpret events.

Amy Jo: Got it. So as you were developing yourself as a coach, finding your groove, finding your focus, were there certain frameworks, techniques that you adopted and [00:14:00] remixed did you get coach training, particularly for instance, cuz that's something a lot of people do and of course psychology is full of many, many, many frameworks.

Julie Gurner: Yeah. 

Amy Jo: So were, were there frameworks that you learned along the way that you plucked from, or resonated with that you used to really develop your style?

Julie Gurner: I think that I have definitely taken some different things and put them together. So, I had a really influential, instructor in my graduate school training. his name was Jeffrey Magna Vita. I've never given him a shout out before. So Dr. Magna Vita, if you're out there, thank you so much. I learned a lot from you.

he is, he was phenomenal and he wrote the book on really deconstructing and reconstructing personality. He did it from a framework of people who had dysfunctional personalities particularly, but he works with very, important people, like he's worked with, I think people in government and, and other places.

But he does these [00:15:00] really long marathon sessions where he'll literally have people fly in, spend six hours in a room with him and,and the next day they get up and they do six hours in a room with him. I mean, it's intense stuff, but he would show videos about, and he, he wrote the book on kind of deconstructing and reconstructing personality.

And man, it was one, it was my favorite course in my graduate training. I have referred people to him. I think that he definitely made me think about the fact that personality is not fixed. How we deconstruct certain areas and rebuild them is important. and although I'm not doing that from a therapeutic perspective because my clients are, are healthy people, there are small little areas that we can tweak, that he has definitely influenced.

So if you pick up, I think Jeffrey Magna Vita has written a book, it's something about like, deconstructing and reconstructing personality or something like that. I definitely follow the work of Beck, for, his cognitive theory. So there are a lot of, I think, influences that I've just kind of melded [00:16:00] together.

And I'm always reading research, right? I spend an hour a day just reading headlines and research and putting together my own frameworks. And I think that. Made me very successful in that, my clients have to like, they don't have, four years to spend kind of figuring out a particular problem.

We move fast, we do things that are very quick and this isn't therapy. So, I try to find ways of using what we already know and applying it to people who are very healthy and well and just need little tweaks here and there. But Dr. Mag DaVita has been a, an incredible influence in my life, with how I think about people and personality.

Amy Jo: We'll make sure to link, Dr. Magna Vita's book our books and any info about him in the description when we publish this for everybody who wants to follow that up. So, thank you.

Earlier on you mentioned making a mistake and learning from it, which was to launch your Twitch office hours, and that didn't work out for you for very interesting reasons, and that mistake [00:17:00] actually helped you learn.

So this is, I imagine something that you get into in your coaching, and I know in the, team coaching that we do, , the ability to make a mistake and aggressively own it and learn from it is for our clients. One of the big value adds and ahas, because they often feel in their outward facing work life, they don't feel a lot of acceptance or encouragement, especially if they're very high level to make a mistake.

They feel like they're supposed to have the answers. Is that something that you see your clients struggle with and how do you, navigate that?

Julie Gurner: I find that like the majority, I mean, maybe I've been really fortunate. I think the majority of my clients struggle less. with failure and probably, and are willing to take risks. They take a lot of risks. I think that some of the executives that work with [00:18:00] them often struggle more and helping them to have permission to make those mistakes along the way.

it by almost actively encouraging. Like, Hey, let's see what happens. Right? Like almost making it a challenge rather than,let's see what happens. Feels a lot different than, oh, you better do X, right? Like, so I think that when you can create a dynamic where it's almost a fun, like you gamify your own growth, to me, that gives you so many more permissions.

And recognizing, when you find people who struggle with failing, what is it about the failing that you're, you're challenged by? Usually it's failing in front of other people. It's not the failure. It's, failing in front of others. The, you don't wanna be ridiculed, you don't wanna be seen a certain way.

So I would dig into those specific elements, like what is it about the failure? Because we usually make it about the failure, but it's usually about other things too. it's about our thoughts around public perception, our thoughts about our competency, because of someone who is [00:19:00] very competent, very secure, very confident.

Oftentimes they have less concerns around failure because they know, Hey, I'm fine either way. like Jeff Bezos, you know, the fire phone was a terrible failure. No one owns a fire phone today. but like in the scope of things, He's a, a massive success. And so the more wins you have, the less the failures matter.

So you just want to continue to be putting effort out there and and trying new things and trying different things. so that's kind of how I think about it.

Amy Jo: Awesome. So let's dig in to your clients and your practice a little. As you said, people are very curious about what it's like. So, at this point in your career, who are your clients? You don't name names, but like an example of like a sector. What role are they playing in the company and then, what are they struggling with that you'll hunker down and take, say, three to six months and really work on making progress?

What does that all look like?

Julie Gurner: So when I think [00:20:00] about, my average, I think my, a typical client of mine, is of like, right now, it, it changes, right? depending on the, time that you might ask me. Right now, my, my client load is mostly founders, people who are both bootstrap and who have raised venture money. So I have a bootstrap, bootstrap founder in Asia who is, making 80 million or so a year.

I have clients who have businesses making 300 million a year who are CEOs. I have clients who are, venture funded, who have companies, worth over a billion dollars, and, and kind of, in that scope. So the things that they are working on and the reasons why they engage, are just for, they are looking for anything for kind of an additional edge.

these are not people who. Have some, kind of major struggles, right? Like, or they wouldn't be where they're at, but they do have things that are always, challenging for them. Probably the, the most challenging thing for most of my clients at that level [00:21:00] is, is really understanding, that other people in their company do not think the same way that they do.

So like, they'd work out a lot of things in their head. They put together information very quickly and they give instructions, very succinctly and directly and clearly. But the challenge sometimes is that, how they're thinking about things is not how other people in their company thinks.

And they can become very frustrated when, how did they not see that they should have done this? Or how did they not anticipate that they should have done that? because they don't think like you, right. people who are at that level oftentimes make assumptions that other people are, very similar to them in how they think, but they're not.

So I think that, pulling back the curtain a bit on how they think and being able to share that with others in a process kind of way, rather than saying, Hey, this is where I'm at right now. Like, take people on, that path with you. show them how you're thinking about things so that you know your team or your executives really understand not just what your plans are, but kind of what your thoughts around the plans are so that they can begin to replicate [00:22:00] and understand and anticipate what you want and what you need.

I think that can be really important. So communication is also a part of that, and effective communication is important no matter what level you're at, but at, at these seats, they need to be really effective doing that. And sometimes they struggle with that, so it's, prioritization sometimes, but not as often.

Amy Jo: Interesting. So as a coach, how do you know, you're sitting there, you have real time sessions, you prep for those sessions, right? How do you, balance asking, probing good questions with offering specific advice?

Julie Gurner: It's a good question. I usually kick off with if there's anything pressing. We meet once a week, at the cadence of our meetings. So I'll ask them if there's anything like, how's your week been? Is there anything kind of come up? And oftentimes they already have things that they want to discuss.

So they'll come to the table saying, I'm really struggling with maybe this executive, or, I'm really struggling with this problem, or I'm [00:23:00] really like, I don't really know how to think about X, Y, and Z. So I think the first thing you have to do as a coach is kind of help people understand how to use you.

Otherwise you're a great tool, but they don't. Really how to engage with you. A lot of these folks, they don't work with coaches all the time, so you know, you have to teach them how to use you as a tool. So usually, kind of I'll ask about their week, if they don't have anything specific, we'll look at, areas, like, who do they need to be for their company right now?

What does the company need most from them? what are their big moves coming up? what are challenges that you're facing right now? So, if there are prompts that can help get them to a certain place, I'll help them get there. But usually, after a few weeks they, they understand how to use me, and then we can kind of, go from there.

And then at that point, I don't really, I, I will kind of give advice, but my advice is usually helping them to come to their own conclusion. because I recognize the important influence. If, if you're doing coaching, every meeting that you have, has tremendous influence on that individual. And that in individual, if they're [00:24:00] a, a CEO of a billion dollar company can have a massive influence, for better or worse on like the way in which the company is, is, structured, makes decisions, decides to move forward in certain ways. in, in kind of worst case scenario, you give advice and then, like that person takes it and it isn't particularly useful.

So you wanna be really careful to allow people to come to their own conclusions and to kind of make their own decisions. And so I don't really make decisions for people, but I will challenge them on decisions that I feel are out of sync with maybe what they've expressed to me that they want. So let's just say that they are,hiring someone or there's a product that they feel they felt uncertain about for the last six months and now they're just gonna kind of let it go, challenge people on things, and kind of step in there. the one thing that people, I think, can recognize is that you have the opportunity to help people really get what they want, from their business. There's a great saying that every founder has and CEO has the business they deserve.

Help [00:25:00] them have that, something that really lines up with who they are and what they truly want. And if you can do that, they’ll feel like it's incredibly successful. that's kind of the end game for me.

Amy Jo: That's fascinating. So, you are in a really interesting and unique position in terms of being able to see patterns cuz you work with a number, different execs in different industries, not just in one industry. So, in terms of, I would love to get some of those patterns that you've been able to discern in front of all of us.

One is what are the most common mistakes that people have about elite performance? maybe mistakes that your customers walk in with and then three months later they're like, ah, I get it now. 

Julie Gurner: What do you mean by, can you clarify this a little bit? The question?

Amy Jo: Yes. Let me clarify the You've now told us who you coach, which is already functioning people, not people that are sick [00:26:00] and you help them perform at a higher level.

Julie Gurner: Mm-hmm.

Amy Jo: So you're really, I think of you as a elite executive coach or peak performance coach, as one might be for athletes, but you do it for CEOs and founders.

Do I have that right?

Julie Gurner: Athletes. Yeah, and sometimes athletes. I've certainly had professional athletes as clients.

Amy Jo: You have. I did not know that. Wow. So you had, this is who your clientele is. Okay.

Julie Gurner: Yeah.

Amy Jo: What are the most common misconceptions that people walk in the door with about this kind of. that once they work with you, they get over those misconception.

Julie Gurner: I think that people. I think the misconception is that, one, I think sometimes that have the misconception that it is therapy. and I, I think that that is, like, like you are really a therapist for people who don't want to go to therapy. so I think that that's a misconception.

I also think [00:27:00] that sometimes people walk in, if they are the, the client, they can, have the misconception around how challenging it can be. and my job is to really challenge these people who are often not challenged by anyone. they have reached a level where now their circle is oftentimes.

Very more protective of them than sometimes challenging. It's great when you find people who do have a very challenging circle, who will, really push them or challenge them on certain ideas. And I think they love when that happens, but it doesn't happen enough. I think from the outside people would see a misconception about performance coaching at an elite level.

I think they, they, they don't understand how effective it is in moving the bottom line and how influential a position it is. if you think about it, I may be fairly expensive for some, but if we end up in a meeting and the CEO walks away and makes a [00:28:00] really important big decision, that moves the needle in the bottom line of their company, even, 2%, that's a million-dollar meeting that you've just had, right?

So it is worth whatever you pay to be able to move the bottom line in that way, which is why, places like hedge funds do employ. some of them, people like me to work with some of the individuals there because if you can eek out 5% better performance on people who are making millions and millions of dollars for this company, you are pushing big numbers on the bottom line.

So if they pay their performance coach a million dollars or a million and a half, that is nothing compared to the five people you've just made, kind of really, be able to increase the company's, bottom line and, and be able to increase company profits. So, I, I think people don't understand what an incredible investment it can be in their business when done right and some of the largest, hedge funds in the world.

Understand that very well.

Amy Jo: That was such a great answer. I'm glad we clarified [00:29:00] that question. and I wanna dig into a couple of things you just mentioned. One is, Who you're surrounded with and whether they challenge you or simply blow smoke up your ass and well, let's put it this way, whether they challenge you or whether they curry favor.

Julie Gurner: Yes.

Amy Jo: So that sounds like something that could be a pattern that you've noticed across different companies and perhaps a best practice for people that wanna be peak performers. So could you talk to us a bit about what you've seen, both when people didn't do that, but then when they did, and perhaps package it up as a piece of advice based on what you've seen given, of course that all advice is contextual, doesn't work for everybody, but that one in particular, I've seen it too, which is why I am so excited to hear what you have to say about it, what you've seen, [00:30:00] what you've learned.

Julie Gurner: I think that, I think about it like when you are a young, younger executive, or you are less experienced sometimes, and even when you are experienced, sometimes it feels really good to surround yourself with people who you think are, like you, that are complimentary to you, that seem to , see the world exactly as you do, who seem to buy in a hundred percent to how you operate, and who make life easy, fun and and seamless for you.

But as you gain experience, what you realize is that by having a few people who have the core values at heart but are willing to challenge you. that the, the outcomes are far better. It one perspective at the table does not make the best perspective. but having 10 different perspectives, all who have a very respectful way of engaging, who bring different viewpoints, who bring different types of expertise, who may see things [00:31:00] a bit differently, who aren't afraid to kind of have those hard conversations.

and you create a space where that can happen, where those challenges can happen, and you can still walk away and, grab dinner later. that's where you get really effective, kind of, changes in your company. The, there's a saying, you want the best idea to win.

It shouldn't be the strongest personality. It shouldn't be the necessarily the highest rank at the table. You want the best idea to win. And those ideas can come from anywhere, and so being open, being able to engage, being able to truly hear other people lacking defensiveness, which is common with a lot of people who have very strong egos.

You're very defensive as well. but being able to kind of relax that a little bit, to be truly confident, have that gravitas sit at the table, hear everybody's perspective, get kind of feedback, and be able to show by your modeling that you can incorporate that feedback. And oftentimes we'll even use it over your own if it's a better idea.

I mean, I think, I think that sets a phenomenal tone for how the organization moves. [00:32:00] because then your're able to, like, people feel like their, their input is valued. They start to also understand the parameters by which input is valued. Like just some idea off the top of your head is probably not as valued as if you come to the table and you're like, Hey, I was thinking about this and I think we should go this other way, because this is what the charts show and this is how we can map it forward.

And I think, we'll, double our revenue if we do it this way. people will start coming to the table with better ideas, better qualities, meeting a bar, and your whole organization is upleveled rather than just you saying, this is how we're gonna do it, and everyone nodding their head. so that's kind of how I think about setting up those, those conversations.

And why in coaching, I think that it can be a model for having those hard conversations and at the end of the day, still being friends and, I, I guess we're not friends, but like still being, able to engage with each other, having respect for each other and, coming back to fight another day. It's important to push people.

Amy Jo: It sounds like in order to help your clients do that, you have to help them [00:33:00] with emotional regulation.

Julie Gurner: Oh, good. Yeah.

Amy Jo: How do you help them with emotional regulation? To not be defensive and reactive, but open and calm and collecting inform.

Julie Gurner: That's such a good question. Right? And it comes back to how I think about things, which is very cognitively, right? So when I think about regulating emotion and not becoming defensive, I try to get into what is the thought you're having when something like that occurs that allow, that makes you flare up like that?

Is it he's undermining me or she's undermining me? Is it, oh, you're gonna, you're trying to make me look silly, or you're making an assumption about how they think about you, or he doesn't think I have the backing to, to make this assumption. he always wants to be right or she always wants to be right.

so there are like thoughts that we're having between that event and the defensiveness that you feel. And so I try to like wedge into that and challenge them there. , so what [00:34:00] if somebody says that you don't know what you're talking about? what does that matter? Well, they're gonna give you all the thoughts they're having.

Of course it matters. They're gonna make me look silly. They're gonna like, make me look like a fool and I'm not gonna let that happen. It's gonna make me look, whatever in front of so-and-so, or it makes me look like I don't know what I'm doing or doing my job. So you'll, you'll be able to find those thoughts very, very quickly and that's where you begin to correct it.

So I get in, in between the event happening and the emotional experience they have, and I'm changing the thing in between. And that thing in between is going to create a different outcome once it's changed. So getting them to see that and then seeing the perks of it, the guy at the table who can sit back and kind of hear feedback and be kind of a quieter force, who can ingest feedback, hear all of the emotion coming at him, and then be able to take that in, be able to process it and can still hold firm on their own beliefs and y or they can, kind of in ingest some of the things said to them and say, I, I hear what you're saying about X and maybe we should incorporate some [00:35:00] of that into this as well. That's a really strong position.

So being able to, help people understand why they're being more reactive and instead, operating from a bit different place. it doesn't just help them, it helps them be heard at the table. defensive, reactive people are, as soon as that emotion comes up, a lot of people's ears just turn off.

Amy Jo: That is so good and so true. So let me recap, in terms of, powerful things that people can do that, that you've seen work across a variety of situations, we've just talked about emotional regulation and developing that, know, developing space between what comes in and how you react to it. And then we also talked about the power of being a really good and curious listener, which is these things, in meetings these things are gonna be related.

Are there any other hot tips for people that aspire to be elite performers? People that aspire to be someone you would coach. [00:36:00] Right. And they're, they're leveling themselves up and they really want to learn from your wisdom. Those are fantastic, tactics. What else have you seen be like, just a great thing to.

Julie Gurner: I think that, this is gonna sound, I don't want it to sound cliche, but I think it's really important is that you move and you iterate really quickly. Like I, I think that people are really afraid of moving too fast, whether you are in coaching or you are somebody who's an executive, and really you should fear kind of moving too slowly.

So I, I think that when you move quickly, it requires a lot more from you. It requires you to have some self-belief. It requires you to have a lot of personal security. It allows you to, to fail. If you're going to fail and like put yourself out there to do it and get that, take a few hits, that's okay.

You'll be fine and you'll see that you'll be fine. so I guess that, if the one piece of feedback I'd have to give people to really move their careers ahead is that I see in really top performers is that they [00:37:00] move fast. If something doesn't work, they'll cut it. one of the things that, the first addition of my newsletter, I used an example from a guy, kind of running a billion dollar company.

And, and one thing that he always says is nothing can run on life support, right? Nothing can run on life support. What he means by that is it's like barely hanging on. It's, being barely kept alive. It's not functioning well. Like, you have to pull the plug, you give it everything it needs to possibly succeed.

And then if it doesn't, you pull the plug and you have to be kind of merciless in that way. so that in your career right now and you're sitting there and you're like, these kind of things aren't really working for me. Like, pull the plug and if things are working for you, double down on those things.

Like really lean into them. take chances, iterate faster. if you wanna get this other position in your life and you see the wrong, ahead, always apply. scaling upward. Don't make co lateral moves. Keep pushing, kind of faster, further, and be taking those chances while at the same time cutting away the things that aren't working instead [00:38:00] of hanging on.

And sometimes that's a job, sometimes that's where you're at. and to seek assistance if, if you need that help.

Amy Jo: That is gold. That is such good advice and it's hard to do. And it requires emotional regulation,

Julie Gurner: It does.

Amy Jo: Right? Like they stack on top of each other. It's interesting, I just, recently interviewed a very experienced game designer who's, been part of every major wave in gaming, going way back to working on text adventure games like Zork, right?

Just amazing guy. and he said such a similar thing to what you did. I said, what is the biggest single mistake that you've seen game studios make and how many game has he worked with? 15, 20, right? He said, not killing, failing projects fast.

And he elaborated on that and it's, I've seen that too. So I think that this lesson about iterate [00:39:00] faster, kill your babies, double down on what's working, do it with an open, curious mind, and non-reactive emotions.

It's a really good recipe.

Julie Gurner: Yeah, absolutely. Great summation. I mean, that's a great way to put it together.

Amy Jo: So what trends are you seeing in leadership just in, companies you're working with? As we head into 2023, what are you seeing emerge in your field that's intriguing to you, that's informing how you make decisions?

Julie Gurner: So two things. I think that people are, still struggling with remote environments. so I think leadership through remote environments is one thing. I think leadership through uncertainty is a huge one. I think that a lot of people that I work with are struggling with that. so I think leadership through uncertainty is probably number one.

Because the economic environment, the business environment, the real estate environment, everything is so uncertain [00:40:00] consumer behavior. So I think that leading through uncertainty is probably the biggest challenge that they face. but one of the trends that I see along with those types of things is that human contact remains a luxury.

We keep developing in AI and we develop in all these other ways. in the metaverse and other things, which I'm actually a really big fan of. I think it's really cool and I can't wait until there is a functioning metaverse to be able to operate from. I think it's fantastic, but saying that I think that human contact, it, it creates this very exclusive luxury to it that I think is never really gonna go away and becomes more valuable than ever.

So that's probably kind of how I'm thinking about the future. Both with myself and, and also with them. Like leaders are gonna have to learn to lead through uncertainty. And if you can help them, it's gold. And if with individuals, human contact, human experience and interaction, those are gonna remain luxury items as we continue to evolve away from it.

Amy Jo: That's, that's so [00:41:00] good. One more question you, built up your coaching practice from a background in clinical psych. You built up your online presence, you made mistakes along the way. You double down on what's working. Can you tell us, I know a lot of people are interested in how to go about building their online presence, they're maybe not sure.

So, for those people, can you take us through the story of how you first started building your online presence? You told us about one mistake, maybe you made other mistakes, et cetera. But just take us through that story so that they can also imagine, how they might do it. 

Julie Gurner: Fantastic. So if, if I could give you any tips and from things that I've learned is that you want to, I mean, the world is full of noise, so. There are a thousand people doing exactly what you're doing. I mean, there are probably a lot of people who are coaches out there as well, right? So I think that for me, you have to find like what makes [00:42:00] you unique, what makes your voice unique?

What makes you unique as a professional? Is it the people you serve? Is it the angle you take? Is it what you do and your background? So I think you have to find like some really unique points of leverage and why someone might choose you over someone else. For me, I think that my psychology background is a real plus.

In the world of coaching, having eight plus years of psychology training, I think, is a distinguishing factor. . Having, worked with certain types of clients is a really distinguishing factor. So like, there's certain things that you can capitalize on yourself. If you have a certain background you've worked with certain people.

You'll see that sometimes on Twitter, for example, someone will call themselves like, I'm the the storage guy, or I'm the multi-family investor guy. Right? You know, immediately what he's gonna be talking about all the time. But the right people will find him and because of that, he'll have a great online presence with people who are really interested in multi-family investing.

So for your online presence, Choose maybe three things that are, you're gonna tweet [00:43:00] about, talk about, and just hit those all the time. And even though it feels like no one's listening and that no one cares, eventually what you're going to find is that the right people are gonna start liking your things.

And every time they like it, it shows it to their networks and, people who are interested in what you're talking about. It could be, I'm interested in, finance,Mexican cuisine and,coaching, well, you're the finance coach who loves mexican cuisine and you do this coaching work.

You'll find people who are in finance who are looking for a coach who will know that, like this person talks about finance all the time. They talk about their work with finance clients, they talk. Food periodically because you're a person and like you have all of these other ways of doing it.

So you're cultivating, a very niche personality. I think people make the mistake of going way too broad and they just like, Hey, I'm an executive coach. Well, there are hundreds of executive coaches. what makes you different? And sometimes there are executive coaches who have venture backgrounds, founder backgrounds, and I love those [00:44:00] people because they're people I can rely on.

Like, I'm not going to tell you, how to raise, like, how to create your pitch deck. I, that's not gonna be my area of expertise. But if you want a coach who does that, that person who is in venture's gonna be a great one. So that's a person that you would probably go to, right? So you help people find the right fit for them by being really specific and clear about who you are and the more clear you can be by defining that and then just hitting those topics with your insights and with, your expertise.

I think that really begins to kind of, build from there.

Amy Jo: That is fantastic advice. That is such great advice. 

Julie Gurner: Well, I hope that people, really take that in and use it because when we say like a lot of times we think that just labeling ourselves a coach is enough and, or labeling ourselves a certain type of person is enough and you have to help people. You know, your, your tribe actually find you.

Amy Jo: And it's not for everybody.

Julie Gurner: No, absolutely not. [00:45:00] No. There are some coaches, for example, I'll give you an example. There are some people who are amazing, amazing in person. They do panels. They're out there, they're doing group kind of work. And you and I have talked about this previously that like I am not the person to do group work. I am not great at group work and it's not my area of expertise.

But there are some people who are amazing at group work. I think you are phenomenal, right? Like you do more groups and kind of do some of that work

Amy Jo: Yeah, that's primarily, yeah. Right. And again, that comes why, because my background post psychology, my degree was undergrad psychology and then graduate school behavioral neuroscience, which was psych and neuroscience together. And I worked in tech, I worked as an engineer, as a designer, as a producer, 

Julie Gurner: Amazing. 

Amy Jo: know, then creative director.

And so I worked with teams all the time for years. So my group work comes absolutely [00:46:00] naturally out of years and years and years of experience and pattern matching and mistakes. Your one-on-one work naturally comes out of your background, right? And as a trained clinical psychologist, probably also personality, but you know, so much of it is, background, right?

We are who we were shaped to.

Julie Gurner: Yeah. I think that, like, and, and if you try to fight against it, you're not as effective as if you work with it. And so that's why, like I try, I keep in my zone and when people ask for certain things, I just refer them to the people who are best at it. And I think that's also how you preserve your reputation, honestly, is not taking on things that you're just not good at.

I think that the tendency sometimes for people early on is to say, oh, I'm gonna take on everything, right? Like, and don't do that. Be good to your clients and you know, like serve them. And taking the hit early by turning someone away and finding a great resource for them only increases your reputation and you get things coming back later for that.

So I, I do, I'm a really big [00:47:00] believer. And I've had that happen recently. There was a client that I would've loved to have had, wasn't the right fit for me. I knew it. I referred them, to what they, they truly needed. and I think that that, that comes back around.

Amy Jo: Ditto

Julie Gurner: Yeah. It’s fantastic. 

Amy Jo: It’s true, it's true. And you need a certain amount of deal flow for that to work.

So, I think it tends, it's a phase of your career. When you're much younger, you'll tend to take a wider variety. But one way, I think to level up faster is to go narrower like that and be willing to say no.

Julie Gurner: I agree with that.

Amy Jo: Fantastic. So, we're gonna bring this to a close. Thank you so much to Dr. Gerner, sharing your wisdom, these incredible tips, these actionable techniques we can try. Really appreciate that all. Appreciate your time.

Julie Gurner: Thank you so much for having me. It is absolutely fantastic to speak with you. Thank you so much for, bringing your community together and for us to have this conversation.

Amy Jo: [00:48:00] Fantastic. We'll talk soon.