Intro: [00:00:00] From Silicon Valley, the heart of startup land. It's Getting2Alpha. The show about creating innovative, compelling experiences that people love. And now, here's your host, game designer, entrepreneur, and startup coach, Amy Jo Kim.
Amy: I first met David Vogler during the early, heady days of the web. When we worked together to craft Nickelodeon's first online presence, David went on to lead creative teams at Disney, NBCUniversal, Hearst, and other leading brands.
He's now the head of design for Complex Networks, a joint venture between Hearst and Verizon. David has a knack for creating innovative media experiences that still manage to connect with basic user needs.
David: I'll tell you, I don't believe in the idea of build it and they will come. I think I will say the same thing I've heard many of your guests say, this is the common bond between all of [00:01:00] us.
For a product to be successful, the first thing is it really needs to provide a clear solution to a user problem. And I don't believe in just building things out of pure fancy and expecting that the audience will show up. It's hard enough when you've identified a user problem and you're offering a clear solution just to build things.
For the fun of it, uh, can be a dangerous proposition.
Amy: Listen in and discover how this long time insider navigates the dynamic landscape of online video and big media brand building.
Welcome David to the Getting2Alpha podcast.
David: Hey, Amy Jo. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
Amy: Yeah. I'm so excited to hang out with you for a while and catch up first. Before we get into the meat of it, just give us a little glimpse into your daily work life. [00:02:00] What's typical for you right now? Like, who do you interact with?
What kind of decisions do you make?
David: Well, I would say I'm the luckiest boy in New York city because in my role, I get to work with just about everybody, every discipline within the business. Uh, I manage a pretty robust, uh, design team, but work intimately with all the other disciplines of the company and of the business, whether that be marketing or coding or finance or strategy at one point or another, the services that I offer helps supercharge all the others.
So that's kind of a typical day is interacting, strategizing with, uh, all the other groups.
Amy: Very cool. Also sounds very challenging.
David: It, it can be, but I feel very lucky that everyone values The role of design and, uh, what I can offer and how I can make their [00:03:00] lives, their decisions, uh, and the product even better.
So it's good.
Amy: So I'd like you to take us on a whirlwind tour of your background. How did you turn into this person that could communicate with all these different departments at a high strategic level and also at a very boots on ground creative level? Where, where did you get started in design and tech?
David: Wow. Well, I can answer that. It depends on how much time you'll allot me to responding. It's, it's kind of a funny story. I went to Pratt, which is a design school here in the East, New York, and I majored in communication design. So, you know, at the time, the Internet hadn't exploded. And back then what they taught you was really thinking and communicating and problem solving, which is at the core of any good design for any kind of product you're making.
So I was kind of educated with a foundation that could [00:04:00] coexist with any kind of business and gave me the tools to speak And work with any kind of, uh, any kind of leader. So I kind of credit that early start to helping me get where I am today. Is this the right time to go back and tell you how I got into the digital business?
Amy: Absolutely.
David: Well, I'll go way back in time. And I know you often ask your guests about pivots, but this is a great pivot story. I started my first job out of design school. I started working at a cable network called Nickelodeon and that's owned by Viacom. It's a network devoted to kids and I've been working in the youth market pretty much my whole career.
But here's how it started. I began at Nickelodeon as the creative director, uh, for everything that was off the air. In other words, my job was to translate the insanity of what was being [00:05:00] televised into consumer products. So I was working with the consumer product team, which is just beginning. And, you know, we did everything that a kid could blow their allowance on toys, games, licensed stuff, you know, consumer products.
So, you know, I'd be doing that kind of creative and design work during the day, but in the evenings on my own time, I was obsessed with the internet. I was obsessed with digital and, you know, I'd be a, uh, creative guy for Nickelodeon by day, but kind of a Macintosh nerd by night. So, As the internet became bigger and bigger and digital began to kind of explode and, uh, take over a lot of the thinking and a lot of business plans of, uh, big media, the powers that be, uh, the corporate parents, Viacom, you know, came to me one day and said, you know, you seem to be an evangelist for this newfangled internet [00:06:00] stuff.
You seem like you're the only guy in the building who gets this. We have a suggestion. Why don't you stop making traditional products and spend all your time now making digital products. So the punchline is it's kind of a crazy thing when your nerd hobby becomes your full time job. So that's how I kind of got into the digital space, if you will.
And, um, I've never looked back.
Amy: You've done a lot of work with big media companies. I, if we had two hours and we were over beers, we go deep and broad, but just give us a highlight of the different media companies you've worked with. Cause of course, you then came out to California.
David: I did. I did. At Nickelodeon, I, um, was one of the founding fathers of the, uh, Nick Online division, which, um, you know, launched, uh, sites and apps and became the number one [00:07:00] destination for kids.
And I'm proud to say it still is today. And it was a great experience. I was poached by the Walt Disney company back in those days. And the Disney folks hired me and moved me out to Los Angeles. And I joined their online division and helped them launch a lot of new products. We worked on the first versions of the Disney store.
They were very aggressive with commerce, did very well. We did a lot of, uh, digital, uh, marketing support for their, uh, feature animation and, um, their other businesses. Uh, and at that time, this is really going back in time. Uh, I was part of the team that launched something called Disney's Daily Blast. That was the first, uh, subscription product for kids and families on the internet.
And it was a great, great learning experience. This is all back in the days they used to call web 1.0. And, um, so yeah, for a number of years, I lived in [00:08:00] LA and worked for the Walt Disney Company. Then what happened? Well, you know, the, the Disney blast product, uh, was very good. It won every kind of creative award.
It was loved by the audience. It was a success by many measures. Uh, however, it taught me a great lesson because it was essentially a broadband product before everybody had broadband, it was very aggressive in its technology requirements. Perhaps a little recklessly, uh, for it to perform in a good way. Uh, the user had to have pretty good processors and new equipment and, you know, a fast connection didn't hurt.
And, you know, it was a little ahead of its time because the average person, as you may recall, back then, you know, was still dialing up at 56k and it didn't work as smooth as it did for Those [00:09:00] more privileged folks with great equipment and fast connections. Now we take that for granted now where high speed goes into every home, but back in those early, early days, you know, connection speed made all the difference and it was a great product, just a little bit ahead of the curve.
So, you know, eventually it was. Sunset it. And a lot of that content, a lot of that learnings was moved into other parts of the company. And it was a great lesson.
Amy: So you've worked with. A number of companies on the edge of innovation, right at the edge, sometimes falling over the edge. Sometimes like with Nick online, it, it takes off, you know, and you're like, the timing's right.
What is it you've learned about how to innovate successfully? That you wish you had known 10 years ago that you know, now.
David: Well, one lesson I [00:10:00] learned, I'll tell you, I don't believe in the idea of build it and they will come. I think I will say the same thing I've heard many of your guests say, this is the common bond between all of us.
For a product to be successful, the first thing is it really needs to provide a clear solution to a user problem. And I don't believe in just building things out of pure fancy and expecting that the audience will show up. It's hard enough when you've identified a user problem and you're offering a clear solution just to build things.
For the fun of it, uh, can be a dangerous proposition.
Amy: Do you feel like that's something that media companies struggle with?
David: I think so. Well, heck all companies at some point, uh, I think have, have done that, but yeah, big, big media companies. And you know, the, the big companies that make Hollywood product, television product, you know, streaming video product, they're getting [00:11:00] better and better with each quarter.
They've certainly. Learned a lot of lessons as we all have along the way, but the companies that are still clinging to old conventions. Whether that be business models or creative models run the risk of being left behind and they know it and they're getting better. But, um, I would say that's probably it.
Amy: Yeah. So you've worked with and now you manage and really support a lot of creative people. lot of young creative people. You were, you know, we both were those people at one point, but now you, right. But now you, as I do help support and empower and coach and manage creative people as well. Right. Yeah. So what are some of the most common mistakes in your world?
That you see creative people making when they're in the early stages [00:12:00] of bringing their idea to life. Now you talked about. don't believe in the build it and they will come. So that's one. But what are some of the things you've seen that really, from your perspective, work well when you're bringing something to life?
Yeah. What are, you know, what are the mistakes people make and what do you wish they would do instead?
David: I'll tell you from past experience, I've seen teams and companies try to boil the ocean and do it all from scratch and they're under the impression that that's the only way to do it these days, especially now, especially now in the summer of 2018, it's crazy to build everything from scratch.
There are many off the shelf solutions that are very good. It is completely honorable to leverage those solutions. You don't have to build everything from scratch and write every line of code from scratch. So when I see teams doing that, I have to remind them that, you know, it's about the content [00:13:00] and the experience and serving that user.
They don't really care what the plumbing is behind the scenes. As long as it's working and fulfilling that promise you've made, you're just fine. So I think, Amy Jo, I would say. You know, you don't have to do it all from scratch, leverage all those off the shelf things that are out there. It's certainly cost effective and it get into market faster.
That would be my opinion. Another thing is what I've seen designers do is they feel like they're obligated to be creative for the sake of being creative, you know, for the sake of being different, I'm referring specifically to UI and, uh, you know, interface design work. The truth is it's okay to adopt conventions and use proven techniques, follow best practices.
You know, you don't want to make the user relearn things. That's a disservice. So I'm a big believer that sometimes the best UI is no UI. That should be quiet and the content should come forward. [00:14:00] I hesitate to get crazy and do gratuitous, creative shenanigans, uh, if it doesn't really serve the end result.
Amy: Gratuitous, creative shenanigans.
David: Yes ma'am. You've seen it all.
Amy: Oh my God. That's perfect. Yes. And that's actually something that every young designer does because, you know, you have a new, a new toolkit and you want to use it.
David: Sure.
Amy: So that's really interesting that, you know, both of those points are really about adopting what's there to make it easier for the user.
David: Yeah. In fact, if you'll allow me, let me go back in time to the early age of this novel device called the iPad, uh, back in 2010, I really jumped into that and did a lot of work creating apps, uh, for the tablet. I worked with a team that was one of the first to [00:15:00] translate, uh, print magazines to the iPad. And we did a lot of work with Condé Nast and Time Inc and, you know, all the big publishers.
And the problem, uh, everyone was having back then is that there were no agreed upon design conventions or navigational solutions. From app to app. That's kind of cleaned itself up over time. It's not quite the same now, but in the beginning, when every designer was jumping into, uh, iPad design, uh, it was starting from scratch and there were no best practices and everyone was making it up as you go along and it was frustrating because, uh, in that publication world, you'd open up a magazine on your iPad, like, you know, time, And it would behave and navigate and, uh, perform a certain way.
And the taxonomy was a certain way and the content was presented in a certain way. But one tap away, you'd go [00:16:00] to a competitive magazine and it would behave completely different. And the user would have to relearn the basics every single time they used an app. And it was super frustrating. And as you can imagine, really hard for the design community.
Now, for a variety of reasons over time, over the years, uh, that began to coalesce and best practices did emerge. But I always think of that early, that early experience trying to, uh, bring, uh, consistency to that chaos.
Amy: Well, that's because they're brand centric and not user centric.
David: Yes, yes, that's right.
Amy: And, and I think that in media companies, they're that way because they've been shaped and incentivized to be that way, to be brand centric, that's how they get, you know, compensated, right? If their brand does well, it's like game studios in the games world.
David: Sure.
Amy: So, your point of view, it sounds like as a [00:17:00] designer and, you know, way back to your original training, you know, really thinking about the experience you're delivering, not just the creativity that's inside of you is this tension that you've really been exploring.
David: Yes. Yes. I think you're right. You know, for a period of time, I worked for NBC universal. And while I was there, I was part of the initial leadership team that launched a website called Hulu. And in those early days, Hulu began as a partnership between NBC and Fox. And we did lots of prototypes, uh, lots of mock ups and tests and design experiments.
And one thing that I was a big evangelist about, and I'm proud to say made it to the first version and got out there. I was always a big believer in that quote that, uh, uh, the best design is as little design as possible. I think that was Dita Rams who said that. And [00:18:00] in those early days with Hulu, you know, a lot of the, uh, UI mock ups were really dense and filled with.
Buttons and whistles and widgets and distractions as sites were back then, but it took great courage for the people at Hulu to design and launch a site that did exactly the opposite. Um, the philosophy I always promoted and still do is that the content should come forward and the interface should step back, you know, put, put the attention on the experience and the content, not the signage.
And ultimately, when Hulu launched, it was really devilishly simple. It was essentially simple blank web pages with large video that was easy to find and navigate. I mention that because in those days, we talked to users first, and that's exactly what they told us. All they wanted was the clearest, sharpest, best video [00:19:00] that we could deliver, and they wanted the simplest way to find it.
And that was the promise, great viewing and easy to find your favorites. And if that was all we delivered, then it was a home run. And when Hulu finally launched, you know, you could argue it became, you know, the gold standard for professional, uh, streaming series. So that taught me a lot of lessons about, um, you know, you have to question your expectations about the products you're making and listen to the user, talk to the user.
And, um, you know, simple is always better.
Amy: I love it. That's very much my philosophy as well. And I think it's, uh, it's tough, you know, it's, it's much. So here's the thing. It's much harder to make something simple. It's just much harder.
David: It sure is. In fact, I was a disciple and, uh, a follower still am of, uh, the great Alan Kay, who I worked with, [00:20:00] uh, when I was at Disney.
And back then, uh, he was, you know, a great mentor to me. A small little anecdote I'll share. Years ago, Alan said to me, you know, Dave, there's only two ways to design a website. And I was like, well, Mr. Kay, what do you mean by that? And he said, well, you know, one extreme is to design a very dense page, the way portals were back then.
You know where every pixel is jammed up and it's just surrounded with options and buttons and links and it's kind of like sitting in the cockpit of the space shuttle, you are just enveloped with options and buttons. And that's appropriate for some businesses. Other extreme is to do exactly the opposite, to be as minimal as possible, to reduce and take away.
And the best interface is no interface. So he's the one who really opened my eyes to that. And again, I'm not [00:21:00] making any judgments for some businesses, for some audiences, for some products. You know, one extreme on either end of that spectrum is exactly correct, but in some cases, it might be exactly wrong.
So you really have to understand what that audience wants and will benefit from and what your business model wants and will benefit from, uh, both legit. But, um, you have to kind of pick a path and stick to it. That's kind of what happened with Hulu back in those days to be minimal. And that has always served me well.
Amy: Yep.
David: I think, I think Amy Jo, I'm preaching to the converted.
Amy: Well, my listeners are really absorbing a lot of key lessons. This is a very international audience. Uh, we have people from. 16 countries last I checked. So, you know, this lesson of minimalism, you'd be surprised how many people that might be like connecting that to [00:22:00] business success might be somewhat of a new idea.
And they might look back on their career and go, Oh, well, that explains what happened on that project.
David: Sure. Sure. And I think it's a point of view and a state of mind. I mean, as designers. When we say minimal, you know, that conjures up ideas of lots of white space and simplicity and clarity. But, you know, those are also descriptions for business models to, uh, simplicity, clarity, focus.
I think that core philosophy we're embracing right now, uh, works for all disciplines. Um, creative business strategy. It's hard to do something simple.
Amy: That is so true. Part of that is the art of knowing who to listen to and who to tune out. It really is in practice boots on ground on the front lines. So I'd actually like to dig into that, especially around Hulu, but also if you have a story from another [00:23:00] project you've worked on, first of all, it's really hard.
To innovate successfully because you need this weird combination of a very strong vision. And clarity and conviction around that vision. That's one component, but the other component you need is a lot of smart iteration and testing with the right people. Like you need that combination. How did you navigate that at Hulu?
I'm sure it was imperfect, right? But on the project you've worked on that. Did involve innovation success that had that combination. How did you figure out who to listen to and pay attention to and who to tune out both in the users and within the company in order to get a strong vision shipped, which is always going to be a battle, right?
David: Sure. Sure. Let me just jump back and, and, uh, clarify with Hulu, you know, at NBC. It's kind of like that John Kennedy quote that, um, success has a thousand [00:24:00] fathers, but failure is an orphan. I can't take credit for Hulu. Part of it at the beginning, of course, is the kind of launch team. But once that was a joint venture and once that got off the ground.
They, you know, got space, uh, on Olympic out in Los Angeles and hired a CEO and a team and they're the ones who really did it and deserve the credit. I was just part of the team that helped cook it up and sell it. So you're hearing just one sliver, just one, one perspective. There was a giant team on both coasts.
I was just, you know, A sous chef in that, uh, kitchen. But to get back to your, to your question, you know, who to tune in and who to tune out, certainly your user, your customer, uh, has to be in charge and serving their needs, you know, is, is I think the first thing that's the North story you have to follow.
I think good research, good data, good understanding of the marketplace, business, the whole environment is crucial, and that's a [00:25:00] yardstick you use to judge things as well. But there is something to be said for kind of instinct research, your gut. And, you know, if you're paying attention and you're focused and you really know your customer, your instincts are just as valid as theirs.
You know, listen to everyone, but, um, learn to kind of filter out the distraction and go with the things that will make the customer happy, the product happy and yourself happy. Easier said than done.
Amy: Seriously, easier said than done, it's a noble thing. So when you look back at all the projects you worked on.
How do you see the role of timing and innovation playing out versus like good execution, good understanding of the market? You talked about Disney and that sounds like it was a timing issue.
David: Well, in that case, uh, yeah, I would say timing in regard to technology being ubiquitous, [00:26:00] bandwidth being commonplace, kind of creative ideas we had at Disney.
If they had launched a little later, I think they would have seen a different kind of success than when they launched a little too early. Now, Amy Jo, there are people in the Valley who spend their whole careers trying to answer that question. And, you know, It's hard to predict the future. You have to kind of triangulate between product idea, you know, marketplace conditions, funding, all these different variables.
So it's, it's tricky.
Amy: So how does the rate of change in a market. impact your ability as someone who works with major brands, big media companies, you know, big marketing budgets. How does the rate of change of a market impact your ability? You told us a story about Disney, and that was sort of a market timing issue that you made a bet that broadband would be really widely distributed.
And at that point it was [00:27:00] slower than expected. So right now the online video market that's got YouTube and mobile phones and, you know, Instagram and Snapchat and all the new things happening there. How is that impacting your ability as someone in a media company to build things and to, you know, just like get projects funded and push through, et cetera.
David: Yeah, it's a challenge. And I think you'll find that the big traditional media companies struggle with that. We all do. And I think for any discipline in our space, the rapid disruptive change that happens. Almost quarter to quarter can really, really mess up the best laid plans. You know, I've seen situations where really smart people have come up with a great idea.
They've got great [00:28:00] content. They've got funding. They've got smart talent on the team. Everything's going right. The planets align. And when that product or proposition is pitched, say in Q1, it seems like a sure thing, a good bet. But market forces. You can't possibly foresee, you know, could change by Q3. And everything that sounded like an honest, solid, accurate prediction in Q1 could be an absolute lie, uh, by Q3.
And it's nobody's fault, there's no one's being malicious, but we've all seen that situation where something seems red hot and bankable pretty darn fast, it seems like it's exactly the wrong thing.
Amy: So can you give me a specific example, like something that the market changed out from under you?
David: Oh, boy.
Well, I mean, one example you see all the time, quarter to quarter, year to year, is the volatility that you're seeing with the [00:29:00] social networks and the social platforms. I mean, we could talk for hours about that, but, you know, almost overnight, a blue chip bankable thing called Facebook Suddenly became toxic for lots of people, uh, publishers, users, everyone in between.
It's hard. Uh, we could talk a long time. A great case study is what we're seeing with Snapchat, the ups and downs and, uh, some of the things they've had to deal with. Great people, smart people. You know, you can do everything right. You can produce great work, but it's sadly not a guarantee. It's going to stick.
So I think in that environment, social platforms, social products, uh, are more volatile than ever. I think you'd agree you're also seeing that, um, in a space that I work in, uh, and that's the, uh, over the top, uh, video market. You know, you see things like Roku, which is a great, great platform and a great product, have extreme highs and lows that change almost weekly [00:30:00] depending on what the bigger guys do.
Uh, Amazon can, you know, Put out a press release and hint at something. And then suddenly everyone's stock rapidly drops. So it's, it's, uh, exciting times, very volatile market. It is. And it's hard to predict and I'm stating the obvious, but, um, it's a roller coaster, that's for sure.
Amy: So how, from your perspective and your perch, how has YouTube impacted the market?
David: Well, I mean, the, the work that I'm doing now is, um, creating millennial focused video entertainment, uh, long form premium content, as well as short form video content that's distributed on social platforms and, uh, more successfully on, on YouTube. And they're the only game in town. There's a lot of great things about YouTube.
Like any platform you don't own, you have to be careful placing all your bets with one company. And a lot of [00:31:00] entertainment makers, uh, have put all their eggs in the YouTube basket that could be a risk. YouTube is a very, very important part of the ecosystem and every big publisher, every big video content maker has to work with them and have a good relationship with them.
So they're, they're valuable.
Amy: Yeah. That, do you feel like YouTube makes it much harder to make and monetize higher end content?
David: Well, right now, you know, YouTube is not known as a destination for high end premium content. They're working to change that. If we wanted to sit down and watch a quality premium TV series, you'd probably think of Netflix or Hulu or HBO Go before you would think of YouTube.
YouTube is still the king and still the one and only place to go for user generated content, uh, amateur content. But the question is, how do we define premium now? [00:32:00] Does that mean long form? Maybe not. Does it mean high production values or stars or a name director or a scripted series? Maybe. Generally, those are the qualities that define the upscale programming you see on HBO or Showtime or Netflix or Hulu.
But I don't know how long that'll last or if that's the yardstick of success going forward. You know, you're not going to get. In this environment right now a game of thrones on youtube for free ad supported That takes a lot of work and a lot of investment. There's still boundaries between that premium scripted series and the stuff you're getting for free made by an amateur on youtube, but What i'm saying is in terms of consumption and user enjoyment.
I wonder if that's blurring.
Amy: I would say, yeah.
David: I uh, I have uh, you know, one of my, one of my nieces who's of that age [00:33:00] can watch an episode of Game of Thrones and then tune into a makeup video on YouTube, which is, you know, made for pennies by some kid and in their parents basement. And there is absolutely no skip that they can coexist side by side with equal enjoyment.
In the eyes of a lot of the youth, uh, it's all the same. It's one big soup. So whether you're spending tens of millions an episode for a scripted show or 10 for a homemade video, I'm beginning to wonder in the eyes of the new audience. Does it matter so much? Do they even see the difference?
Amy: That's such an interesting question.
So you asked me earlier how I see YouTube. The main way I see YouTube is the world's largest education platform. I do a lot of work in education and in the, you know, the sort of adjacent areas. And that's where people go when they want to know about something. That's where they go first. It's [00:34:00] just there now, not worldwide necessarily because it's blocked in certain countries, but people get around that.
David: Sure.
Amy: I figured that out. So, you know, I did some work for Shiseido and did a bunch of research and realize that the people watching makeup videos are educating themselves and it's this blend of education and entertainment. But it's really, they see it as education. So yeah, there's also Logan Paul on YouTube, but a lot of YouTube is this very folksy education that's available in a really interesting way.
It's not Game of Thrones because Game of Thrones is an education. Game of Thrones is what we used to get from movies. It's really Hollywood high end. It's amazing storytelling. It's big sets. It's believable dragons and great, you know, special effects. And that's Hollywood, right? That's what we, elders, right?
Elders grew up [00:35:00] with, and now it's on TV on HBO, but it's on the big screen in your house. If you have one or it's on your phone because sometimes you were on the go, right? And that's where it is. But that serves a different role in your life than the makeup videos. Like those are Like I see them as seamless, but I see one very much in the entertain me, you know, kick me away into this other world.
And then I see others as there's a lot of stuff on YouTube, but the stuff I'm focused on personally is the stuff where people are educating themselves and they graduate from one person to another games is huge. That way, the amount of education and Discovery that's happening on YouTube with games blows my mind.
David: Sure.
Amy: Anyway, that was my rant, but what do you see that's new and exciting to you these days? So we've talked about the rapidly shifting digital media and social media [00:36:00] landscape, which is absolutely true. It's like. A minefield, like you just never know what's going to happen. And it's kind of built on shaky ground.
What do you see that's exciting to you that just gets your juices flowing? That makes you curious to learn more.
David: Boy, you know, I would say, uh, I've become seduced and fascinated by a lot of the, uh, packaging and the promotions. And the marketing of that video content, uh, in the digital space. A good example is, uh, Netflix.
They have a series called stranger things, a good show, but I'd say their marketing and social broadcasting of that IP was outstanding. A lot of these things, their social content and their social marketing and the promotion of the series. is sometimes just as satisfying as watching an episode itself.
Amy: Oh, tell me [00:37:00] more. Tell me details.
David: Oh boy. Again, uh, you and I could talk for hours about this kind of topic, but, um, I've always used the marketing of Stranger Things 2 the, uh, last, uh, season. Uh, with my students and my staff as a great case study on promoting, uh, a series and introducing the series to people who don't know about it.
God, there's been so many articles, so many case studies. They've, they've gotten such applause for their work. Netflix is really, really the King. I have such respect for them, not only in the content they're making and, and broadcasting, but the way they promote it and market it is a plus.
Amy: Can you give me like one specific example of something they did that just tickled your fancy?
David: In the case of stranger things, they were brave enough and, uh, innovative enough to take some risks. [00:38:00] They were willing to play with the property and its position. And, uh, they didn't, it wasn't as sacred as other companies would have treated. They created social posts and videos that kind of mocked themselves, you know, it was an inside joke between them and the fans.
They took risks and injected a bit of humor and a bit of a wink that, uh, I don't think other people would have done. Netflix knows when to be serious and when not to take itself too seriously, so good for them.
Amy: You know, MTV had that quality in their early days.
David: They did. They did. Now, of course, Netflix.
offers a broad, a really broad variety of content aimed at different audiences. And the way they promoted and spoke about Stranger Things, you know, of course, would be quite different than a different kind of documentary or [00:39:00] something serious. The point is they really understood what they had. They understood that audience.
They understood what the fans loved. Everybody was in on the joke, so to speak, that was smart of them to identify that.
Amy: Very cool. So what do you feel looking back on your career and also looking forward? As you think about other things you might do and just, you know, what you're doing now, what do you feel is your real superpower as a creator?
What kind of projects light you up the most?
David: Boy, that's a tough question. And I might start by answering that. I kind of believe in that Zen saying that the wise man knows that he knows nothing. And I'd be the first to say that, you know, heck I'm learning every day, just like everyone else. You know, the things that I think are rock solid and best practices and a magic bullet today, I accept may be completely invalid, you know, next [00:40:00] quarter.
So that may be a superpower, uh, being completely realistic, but also at the same time a dreamer. And probably that left and right brain combination is not a bad thing to have as a creative director for digital entertainment.
Amy: It really sounds like you fully embrace questioning your assumptions constantly.
David: How can you not? And I think every successful person in this space, whether you're creative or business or everything in between, you have to question what you're doing, you know, have faith, you know, stick to your guns, don't be wishy washy of course. But keep in mind that it's completely okay to have a rapid pivot or You know, explode your preconceptions.
How can you not in this business?
Amy: Beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us today. I love your stories and I could listen to many more hours. So there may be a part 2, watch out.
David: You [00:41:00] know, I, if I may, uh, I'll leave you with one small nugget of wisdom that was taught to me and I know Amy Jo and you and I have spoken in the past.
You've always asked about projects and companies and what makes me excited. Here's the thing years ago, I had a boss. His name was Scott Webb back at Nickelodeon MTV networks. And he once said something to me that I never forgot, and it might be a good way to wrap this up. Scott once said to me, David, you got to remember sometimes it's not what you're working on, but who you're working with, and And I asked him, I said, Scott, well, what do you mean by that?
And he said, well, you know, as your career develops, you know, you, we all get to work on glamorous brands and, and, you know, big companies. And that's fine. But if you have one skunk on your team, then it's misery. On the other hand, you'll find that you may be working on a project that might not be as sexy.
If the team [00:42:00] is smart and decent and good folks, then it's absolutely heaven. And that turned out to be true. It's not what you're working on, but who you're working with. The guiding principle that's always served me well in all the projects I've done is if you can assemble and retain a team of talent that are really good at what they do, enjoy being there, get along, and are having some fun, And that's a good way to spend your day.
Amy: I love it. I'm going to take that into my day.
David: Great.
Amy: Awesome. It's so good to connect and thanks again for your time and sharing your stories and wisdom.
David: Thank you for having me.
Outro: Thanks for listening to Getting2Alpha with Amy Jo Kim, the shows that help you innovate faster and smarter. Be sure to check out our website, getting2alpha.com. That's getting2alpha.com for more great resources and podcast [00:43:00] episodes.