Getting2Alpha
Getting2Alpha
Cindy Au on finding success by saying NO (to the right things)
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Intro: [00:00:00] From Silicon Valley, the heart of startup land. It's Getting2Alpha, the show about creating innovative, compelling experiences that people love. And now, here's your host, game designer, entrepreneur, and startup coach, Amy Jo Kim.
Amy: I've admired Cindy Au for years. VP of Kickstarter, manage that fast growing and highly influential crowdfunding community, and balance the different needs of campaigners and funders.
That's no small feat. Recently, I got to know Cindy better, and I just love her insights and stories about how she grew Kickstarter along with her team into a global powerhouse. Cindy cut her teeth in New York's tech scene and learned quickly on the job how to manage her disparate points of view and say no to tempting ideas in order to fulfill a core vision.
Cindy: A lot of people, when they think about, [00:01:00] you know, Oh, there's a goal and it's a money based goal. There's such a huge temptation to start adding things like, Oh, well, let's give someone a trophy if they're like the biggest backer or, you know, let's have the top 10 campaigns sitting next to each other on a leaderboard.
But when you think about. You know, again, why Kickstarter came into being, which again was, it was really meant to just be, you know, a place where people could feel comfortable trying. You could imagine where that hyper competitiveness would immediately sort of turn so many people away, where no longer are you focused on what you're doing and really just letting that guide you, but you're now focused on, Oh, well, these other 10 people are doing it better than me.
And I don't feel like mine's worthwhile anymore. And that. You know, obviously would would be a huge detriment to not just the site, but just to this whole landscape of people being able to create, um, it's really antithetical. And I think that that collaborativeness is really, you know, in this funny way, what caused the site to be as big as it has been.
Amy: If you're interested in [00:02:00] community dynamics, cooperative design, or tech entrepreneurship, you're going to love this episode. Listen in as Cindy and I explore how Kickstarter evolved into a wildly successful cooperative fundraising platform. Welcome Cindy to the Getting2Alpha podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Amy.
For those who don't know about you, give us a whirlwind tour of your background. How did you first get started in design and tech? And then how did you decide what to pursue along the way?
Cindy: So my route to design and tech was definitely not direct by any means. Before I kind of got my start at Kickstarter, I had been in graduate school getting my PhD in English and my intention, uh, which is the intention of most people getting PhDs in English is to become a university professor.
But I would say, you know, towards the end of my degree program, I was really feeling in some ways a bit burnt out in academia. And as much as I love [00:03:00] teaching, I kind of felt like, you know, in my eight years pursuing that degree, I had also been a teacher for eight years. So I had done the job and I enjoyed it, but I really was kind of itching to try something new and to be somewhere new.
I kind of made this somewhat rash decision to just move to New York without a plan. You know, I happened to kind of arrive right around when a lot of Some of these early New York startups were starting to take off. So Tumblr was one of the big ones on the scene. Meetup had already become successful Etsy, obviously.
And then Kickstarter, which launched in 2009, had sort of just started to, you know, find its legs when I applied for a community role there. And the job that I applied for was very open ended. It was literally just we need someone who can come and work with our users, talk to people, get people excited, help us market what we're doing, and find more people to use Kickstarter.
So when I got there, you know, open ended job description and also very open ended in terms of what I was doing. So the job description did not lie. [00:04:00] In those early days, we really were kind of responsible for just Everything that needed to get done as it related to people trying to use Kickstarter. Um, so that was kind of, you know, my first foothold inside this world of design and tech and product.
And it was a really, you know, just what an amazing sort of front seat to have in terms of, you know, what was happening in tech at the time, specifically with these platforms that were growing because of the way that communities really needed something. Uh, and in the case of Kickstarter to sort of fundraise for stuff that really just.
I just hadn't previously had an opportunity to raise money. That was just really cool. And it was, you know, definitely kind of like getting another degree except this time in design tech and products, which unexpected, but a really great experience.
Amy: So was Kickstarter actually your first job in tech?
Cindy: Uh, it was technically my first job in tech. So something that I actually did a little bit of while I was still in graduate school was I worked part time for another New York startup called outside in, and they were [00:05:00] sort of part of a small group of companies that were trying to really capitalize on localized news.
And so I happened to know a few people in there and they needed some, someone to kind of help curate and do some editing. So I worked remotely and part time on that while I was still in graduate school. So certainly not really getting the full startup experience since I was remote. Um, but you know, that was one of the things that kind of, I think helped my background stand out amongst other, um, people Kickstarter.
Where it was like, Oh, this person actually has some previous startup experience. So that definitely made a big difference.
Amy: That's really interesting. You've talked with me before about what it was like to be at the table during those early years of Kickstarter when decisions were getting made about how to manage the community, what to say yes to, what to say no to.
What did you learn from that about balancing vision and iteration and the needs of your community? Which is such a tricky balancing act.
Cindy: As someone [00:06:00] working to represent and advocate for community, it was definitely always sort of this tension between, you know, what are we hearing that users really want? And then, you know, how does that sort of jive with what the vision of the company is?
And how does that sort of work in terms of, you know, the company's desire to grow sustainably and smartly. Um, and those are things that I think were kind of a part of every single conversation decision that we made around any kind of product or policy change. I mean, I would say that, you know, Certainly from the outside, people were expecting, you know, Kickstarter to just unlock everything and grow, grow, grow, grow, grow and do whatever it took to kind of become the biggest, craziest crowdfunding platform.
And that really was not at all and never has been the goal of the company. You know, the mission of Kickstarter was always to just enable more creativity and more things to be made and for more people to sort of try and put something out into the world. And so from there, I think there's pressure from the outside for Kickstarter artists to sort of, you know, incubate the biggest [00:07:00] campaigns in the world or the most, you know, notable or most famous, and you can sort of see where those sorts of incentives start to really detract from the core mission and can become a real challenge.
Um, and one of the things that we realized is that the more these really big campaigns came onto the site, uh, the more it sort of altered people's fundamental perception of what Kickstarter is and who it's for. And from the very, you know, foundations of the company, uh, the founders and, you know, the early team and all of us really wanted Kickstarter to always remain.
A very accessible open tool that anyone could feel comfortable approaching and not feeling like, Oh, I have to have like a deep resume of best experience before I'm ready for Kickstarter, or I have to be famous before I can use Kickstarter. And those were things that we never ever wanted to be true. You know, with a lot of the policy and product decisions we made, we really kept on thinking about that original user type, the person who's maybe making something for the first time, or maybe the 10th time, but they're [00:08:00] kind of in that sort of amateur professional zone.
And that's, you know, why Kickstarter can be so powerful. Powerful for that person because it's kind of their first opportunity to really go through the experience of mapping it all out and doing, you know, the equivalent of almost a launch, um, except it's launching an idea or a project instead of having to go all the way and investing your whole life into launching the company or launching, you know, doing a full product launch.
So letting people really use the site as a testing ground for ideas.
Amy: That's so interesting. So what did you learn from that, from watching that and being an integral part of that decision making process? What did you take from that, that you're now applying to what you're doing?
Cindy: I feel like based on those experiences, I definitely have learned sort of the importance of really holding to the vision and letting that sort of guide you because there's always going to be these temptations to be like, Oh yeah, you know, that the community wants this, or like our investors are wanting that.
Or, you know, all these people are suggesting we do this thing, which would obviously just create so [00:09:00] many new opportunities. But I think the downside of, you know, letting all those different voices kind of start to, you know, erode at some of that core vision is that you start to sort of lose what might be special about the thing that you're making.
And, you know, don't get me wrong. There were definitely moments where I'm like, man, I wish. I wish we would do this or wish we would, you know, make more things or try more different areas for projects. But at the same time, I feel like the company was successful and continues to be successful because it really stuck to that original vision.
And so, you know, in many ways, As I'm starting to work on my own things, I'm seeing that same kind of phenomena of so many different directions that one could be pulled in, um, that might seem appealing and interesting or provide more opportunity. But at the end of the day, it's best to sort of have those couple of core things that are part of your vision and just let that, you know, sort of reassure you it's like it's okay.
You don't have to do everything And it's okay for something to kind of grow at [00:10:00] a natural organic rate I think that's something that I really appreciated about Kickstarter is that we never ever tried to juice our growth. And we never tried to do things that would sort of falsely create, you know, like a graph that goes up and to the right.
It was really about trusting that the original model was something that people really needed and got genuine value from and letting that sort of guide our decision.
Amy: And yet Kickstarter did go up and to the right and continues to go up and to the right. It's just in this more organic way, as you're pointing out.
So one of the things that fascinates me about Kickstarter is the how much of the platform is designed to resemble a co operative game. You know, there's you don't have lots of leaderboards. You have spotlights, you know, that change that just shine the spotlight on excellence and you know, the the campaigns are structured as a go-no go, win-lose situation, which is not true on all crowdfunding platforms.
[00:11:00] And it really feels like you're becoming part of something bigger than yourself when you join a campaign. So how did you think about that with that, with the team, you know, as you grew the site, as you said no to some things and yes to other things, because that's what I took out of your story is it's kind of as important as what you say no to is what you say yes to.
Yeah,
Cindy: absolutely. Um, I mean, it's, it's, I think relevant that you kind of pointed out how collaborative and cooperative all the components of the site are, because I think a lot of people, when they think about, you know, Oh, there's a goal and it's a money based goal. There's such a huge temptation to start adding things like, Oh, well, let's give someone a trophy if they're like the biggest backer or, you know, let's have the top 10 campaigns sitting next to each other on a leaderboard.
But when you think about you know, again, why Kickstarter came into being, which again was, it was really meant to just be, you know, a place where people could feel comfortable trying. You could [00:12:00] imagine where that hyper competitiveness would immediately sort of turn so many people away, where no longer are you focused on what you're doing.
And really just letting that guide you, but you're now focused on Oh, well, these other 10 people are doing it better than me. And I don't feel like mine's worthwhile anymore. And that, you know, obviously would would be a huge detriment to not just the site, but just to this whole landscape of people being able to create.
Um, it's really antithetical. And I think that that collaborativeness is really You know, in this funny way, what caused the site to be as big as it has been because it's open, it's inviting, it's saying anyone can try this and it's not about beating the campaign next to you and it's not about winning in your industry.
It's about sort of setting a goal for yourself and figuring out how you can work with people and build a community around that and challenging yourself and others, you know, in your network to be part of that. And that's, that's sort of where the challenge comes from, not from competition.
Amy: So, as Kickstarter's community strategist, [00:13:00] manager, and really you had a lot to do with product as well.
How did you navigate building the community specific for Kickstarter's goals? And how do you feel like that community is maybe different than some other communities you've worked on or that you're considering building now? Like what makes that Kickstarter community unique?
Cindy: It's useful to think of the Kickstarter community is not, you know, is sort of monolith of 10 million people who just like supporting or creating campaigns.
It really is a network of individual communities, um, that kind of ladder up to bigger ones and ladder up to even bigger ones. Um, and I think that's something that. You know, was a key insight for those of us working on community in the early days, which is that you can't kind of treat everyone like they're here for the same reason, and that what they're trying to do is similar to what someone else is trying to do.
I mean, yes, there are absolute connective tissues between sort of the different ways in which people are trying to fundraise. But when [00:14:00] you really drill into it, you know what a filmmaker needs is just very, very different from what a product designer or hardware maker needs. Um, and so we worked really hard to really understand those nuances within different communities within these sort of micro communities that would sort of arise inside of Kickstarter.
And that I think was super important because, you know, as we thought about how do we work with the different communities that we have, how do we grow them? Um, it was really about saying, Hey, we, we don't just have people here who make games. For example, we hire people who make games. to help us grow the gaming community because we know how important it is for, you know, someone who's coming to Kickstarter and trying to make a video game or a tabletop game for the first time to have someone who really understands what they're going through.
You know, as much as I feel like it's become almost cliche for companies to say that like they value empathy as a core value that we really did. And, and I felt like that was huge. We spent a lot of time thinking through what are the hardest parts about Doing kickstarter to [00:15:00] answer that question. You really start to get into all the, all the reasons why people might not.
And we did quite a bit of research into why someone might not use kickstarter. Um, and a lot of times it has to do with just simply feeling like it's too hard. It's overwhelming. It's scary. You don't want to fail. Um, and those are all very real concerns. And so, you know, for us having that sort of empathy for creators and specifically creators And, you know, understanding the specific needs of creators in different communities, that, that was huge to being able to sort of provide the empathy that someone might need to feel comfortable enough to say, okay, you know what, despite all those concerns, despite the possibility of failure, I think it's worth it to just give it a shot.
And so that was, that was a big part of, you know, how we thought about community, how we built it, how we approached it.
Amy: And not every community has that much skin in the game to play.
You know, that's, that, it really strikes me that that's a community [00:16:00] management strategy when you're dealing with people who've got some skin in the game, who are putting themselves out there, who could win big, but could also lose something like lose face.
Yeah, exactly. When you work with other teams, because now. You know, you're practically a seasoned veteran of tech companies, and you're doing your own startup, which we'll get into in a moment. When you give advice to other first time designers, first time entrepreneurs that come to you for advice, or you meet them and they talk about what they're doing, what are some of the most common mistakes that you see these product owners making in the early stages of bringing their idea to life?
Cindy: I think specifically for early stage, you know, interestingly enough, as much as I've talked a lot about being able to sort of hold to your original vision, I think what a lot of early stage folks sometimes make the mistake of doing is assuming that there's a really specific path to achieve that vision.
And oftentimes, you know, that was kind of the, the thing that got the company going to begin with. So, you know, a couple of founders get together, they have a great idea, [00:17:00] they have a sort of roadmap for how they want to accomplish the vision. But once they really start doing things, there's a lot of things that can happen that might change how to get there.
I mean, I see a lot of early stage startups struggle with that specific piece of the data or the feedback that you're getting from users is telling you something a little bit different than what you thought. So it might be, you know, the right moment to consider changing tactics or strategy.
And I feel like in those moments, oftentimes early founders will struggle with being able to kind of say, you know what, you're right. This thing isn't working, scrap it, let's try this other approach. And so sort of sticking to the vision, but having that flexibility on how you get there. I think that's really, really important.
And so hard to do. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, everyone is so invested in the thing that they've already built and even abandoning, you know, even a small piece of that is terrifying and feels like, Oh no, what if we don't have enough time? Unfortunately, do feel like with a lot of early startups, time is a major factor.
If you don't have a revenue model yet. And so there's that equation [00:18:00] as well.
Amy: How do you approach this, you know, fast iteration, stick to your vision, but get lots of feedback in your own work? How are you applying these lessons to what you're doing now?
Cindy: Yeah. So I am literally tackling that exact question right now.
I'm currently working on my own company and, you know, in a nutshell, I'm trying to build a new kind of online rug company, which. borrows some approaches from certainly Warby Parker or Casper. That's kind of sort of the very big version of what I could potentially be building. But certainly while doing this, I know that I, and I'm just working on this alone right now.
I know that I personally, Right now, I'm not going to be able to simply go and sort of launch the Casper of rugs, you know, on a 12 month timeline or something. And part of it is because I'm not trying to raise money. I want to do this on my own. And so in order to sort of validate, you know, how this might [00:19:00] work, whether this will work, it really requires me to kind of strip down the really, really big possibility into the smallest possible version that I can then test and make sure that some of my hypotheses and the research that I've been doing and my assumptions about what experience people really want so I can test and validate.
Is that even true? Does this account for, you know, as much of the market as I think it will, et cetera. So that's the process I'm in right now is just devising basically extremely small scale version where I don't need to sell 10,000 rugs.
You know, by Q4, I only need to sell a hundred to discover pretty much everything that I need to know about how people want to purchase a rug, what that delivery experience should look like, what kind of feedback and what kind of, I guess, aha moments that they can have throughout that. So those are all the sort of different components that I want to test.
And really constrain everything. So like I said, limit the amount of product I make, uh, limit even geography if need be, because one can certainly extrapolate, you know, if I only sell rugs [00:20:00] within an urban area, I can at least extrapolate that other urban dwellers will be similarly minded before I kind of go crazy and say like, Oh, you know, nationwide, I can do all these different things.
That's just simply not the case. So I am in the process of really whittling down things to like an absolute MVP.
Amy: Wow. It's never easy, is it?
Cindy: No.
Amy: Wow. So you're putting together that blend of a strong vision and then figuring out how to get some smart feedback on that vision. In that process, how are you thinking about who you want to listen to and who you want to ignore?
How are you going to identify the right people to get feedback from on your earliest versions of this idea?
Cindy: Yeah, I mean, that's such a great question because I think especially when you were trying to launch a business in some ways, there's sort of no shortage of Opinions that you could potentially get.
And the way that I've been approaching this is, is definitely, you know, when I was first getting started, [00:21:00] I have, you know, just a couple of mentors and advisors and immediately, you know, wanted to run by those folks at least, you know, just to gut check, like, Hey, I have this idea. I think it might be terrible.
Can you tell me if it's not terrible? And, you know, so I feel like you always kind of have that circle of folks that you do your gut check with. But beyond that, you know, for me, in terms of this project, I really felt like, you know, as much as I feel really good about understanding how to design like a great user experience and customer experience, there's pretty much every other component of this business that I am so certainly not an expert in by any means.
And so, you know, the types of folks that I've been talking to are really subject matter experts in areas that I basically need to start from scratch. In this case, people who work in the rug industry, people who've launched home, good brands, people who have done a lot of retail and e commerce. And for me, it isn't necessarily about going to these people and saying, Hey.
How would you design this company? It's more about help me get the lay of the land. So I can kind of go [00:22:00] in with eyes open and really understand this industry, understand what the trends have been up until this point, understand what pain points you've experienced working in this industry. And that to me is kind of, you know, in a weird way, exactly how I approach researching any type of thing.
Thing, whether it's my dissertation or working on a business, it's really about, you know, what does this entire landscape look like? And from there, where's the opportunity? And in those conversations, I really see it as a way to kind of understand that ultimately every part of this industry can be re imagined.
So despite the fact that maybe people have made rugs a certain way for thousands of years, there are ways in which that can still change. And that's what I find very interesting about a lot of these conversations I'm having. Notably, I would say I'm actually not talking to any investors for the most part.
Um, and part of that is because I really want to stay focused on figuring out the businesses, you know, something very simple with a real revenue model that isn't sort of reliant on investment to [00:23:00] make it go. And so, you know, my hope. Is that, you know, by kind of constraining my conversations to really just people who work in this business, I can hopefully establish a model that is just makes good business sense and not yet sort of introduce some of the complications that might happen when you suddenly get funding.
That's so interesting.
Amy: I've had five or six entrepreneurs in the last month say exactly that to me. I feel like there's a trend, particularly serial entrepreneurs. They're building businesses that aren't reliant. on funding and often they've done a funded business in the past. Why do you feel that way right now?
Why are you not going after the brass ring of funding?
Cindy: Honestly, I will say that like a lot of it really comes from having both the experience of being at Kickstarter, which, you know, was a company with a very strong revenue model, raised some money, but not much in the grand scheme of things. And as a result was able to remain pretty much completely independent founder Controlled and [00:24:00] really stick to its guns regarding, you know, what we wanted to do and what we thought was important things that if investors had been at the table and in control of those conversations may not have actually happened.
And so, you know, that was kind of a formative experience for me since then. I've been. You know, consulted for and advised for other types of companies that do have a lot of investor input. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, but it definitely changes the conversation and it changes sort of the set of things that you're able to do.
And again, one of those factors is definitely time constraints that ultimately, in my opinion, can be really detrimental to someone's decision making process. If you need to, you know, show certain types of growth and results within, you know, a month, three months, what have you, ultimately, I feel like a lot of decisions get made that don't really make sense in the long term.
And, you know, I'm like, I don't want to commit to a business that I think is just going to flame out quickly, like go really big and just explode after a year or two. I really want to do something that I can do for a long time [00:25:00] that I can grow into that I can hopefully eventually hire some people to help me with.
I'm thinking very long term, quite frankly.
Amy: So you're thinking like a real business person.
Cindy: No, it sounds crazy because I'm like, I think this is just how people normally will try to start a business. You know, like if you want to open a grocery store, this is what you'd be doing. If you want to open a boutique that sells, you know, handmade items, this is what you'd be thinking about.
So it is kind of exactly that.
Amy: That's so cool. So I think, uh, you are on the vanguard of a new trend. What do you feel is your superpower as a creative person? What's your sweet spot? What really lights you up?
Cindy: You know, interestingly enough, I've often felt that my greatest power is that of being an enabler.
And I think part of, you know, part of why I was really drawn to management is because one of the things that I love is sort of meeting people and hiring people and working with teams that are just so talented and being able [00:26:00] to kind of connect with someone and identifying them like this thing that they're really, really good at and then clearing a path so that they can just be awesome at that thing.
And so for me, when I think about starting a company, for example, I know that I definitely I'm going to need people around me who are really great at a lot of things that I'm not. And I love the thought of being able to kind of build that, you know, Avengers assemble sort of moment of like, look at this amazing group of people and look what they can do when they're given the sort of opportunity and tools to excel.
That's definitely something that makes me happy as a creative person. Um, and in terms of the types of problems that I like working on, I mean, I think like most people, I love. a hard problem. I love a challenge, but I'm also a pragmatist. I know that I personally, I'm not going to go out there and sort of develop the next great artificial intelligence, even though I know a lot of people and a lot of very, very smart companies are working on that thing.
But for me, something like selling rugs is interesting and a really big challenge because I literally know nothing [00:27:00] about rugs, or at least up until a few months ago, knew nothing about it and sort of starting from that place of just, you know, just typing into Google. How do people buy rugs? What is the rug industry?
Like going through that whole process is what's exciting to me where? All of a sudden, I'm learning all these things that are just fascinating that I had no idea about. And sort of from there, being able to kind of start to see, all right, well, where's my place inside of all of this? And how could I do something that could be interesting and unique and make a difference?
So really any project that really challenges me to have to kind of go out there and just get my hands dirty and learn a lot, that tends to be, you know, my happy spot.
Amy: You're a learning junkie. Me too. I can totally relate. What are you seeing that's new and exciting to you in tech and design? You talked to us about learning about the opportunity landscape of the rug industry, which is awesome.
What else is on your radar? You know, whose work are you following? What's interesting to you [00:28:00] that's going on?
Cindy: I mean, I will say, I think because of the amount of research that I've been doing on basically just home goods in general, I've become utterly fascinated by sort of this trend of things being unbundled from the sort of mega hole that, that large corporations have on commerce.
Obviously Casper's a really big one in that. And even, you know, the furniture startups like article, um, I met a woman who's launching a furniture company, uh, with a very similar story actually, where she had no background in making furniture, but she, as a consumer had a really hard time picking out and finding things that kind of both were high quality in her price range.
Um, and also had good design. And so she just decided to spend Build a furniture company herself. And, you know, she's, I think it'd be launching in March and that story was just incredibly inspiring to me because she came from a marketing background. I think she had worked at Birchbox, you know, that sort of thing.
The fact that an individual can [00:29:00] simply as a consumer identify a problem and then really from starting from scratch, build an entire company around that I think is amazing. I've done some consulting for a food startup called FoodWorks, and you know, in that experience, there's a very, very similar thing happening in food, which I think is fascinating, where you're starting to see sort of the unbundling of the grocery aisle.
And you know, if you grocery shop, you're probably familiar with what's happening there. Where no longer are dominant brands like Danon or Campbell's taking up all the shelf space. You're starting to see new brands that are emerging. And a lot of those brands started from very, very small outfits. Um, and I think that's just.
Wild and awesome that in the same way that, you know, someone goes to the grocery store and they're like, you know, I can't find yogurt that isn't, you know, just covered in sugar and then go off and launch Siggy's, right. I think that's really cool that these things are happening right now in all these different areas.
Amy: Wow. That is really interesting. It [00:30:00] seems related to the unbundling that's going on in other areas. It's a very common trend, just the sort of micro, it reminds me of what's going on in Kickstarter, which is kind of the unbundling of financing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, with these, little micro communities growing up around it and then growing into larger things.
So where's your focus these days? What's coming up on the horizon for you that you're excited about?
Cindy: Well, um, I would say that right now my brain is pretty much split between working on the rug business. But also sort of remaining open to, you know, what's happening out there, what interesting opportunities might arise for me professionally.
Something that I think a lot about is that I have this very deep experience now working with startups, but ironically, I don't have deep experience working with, you know, established companies. Um, and that's something that I think a lot about is just, you know, how does an organization of a thousand people work?
How does an organization of 10,000 people [00:31:00] work? Um, so, so those are some of the experiences that I think a lot about, you know, trying to add, add to the collection for me in the next, next year or so while I'm also trying to start my own company. And then really in general, you know, honestly, I feel like for me, what gets me going every day is sort of the opportunity to connect with people and, uh, and help others.
I guess I asked for a lot of help. And so I try to give help when I can. So those are places too, where I feel like it's, it's fun for me. And it also is nice to be able to connect with other people who are, you know, either working on their own businesses or just trying to figure out what to do with their careers.
And then lastly, I will say in this current Let's say political environment. I'm keeping an eye out for ways in which I can help make things better for people who need, uh, who need assistance. So I'm still waiting for the Obama foundation to email me how I can help. So those are, yeah, those are a couple of things that I'm thinking about now.
Amy: Yeah, I can relate. I am looking for ways to help and I'm finding that a lot of the people that are really making a difference right [00:32:00] now. Uh, seem to be female. Not all, but there's a real rising up of females from, you know, the, in the government and just you and me and the woman who's building her company.
I think there's a lot of opportunity for this different way of looking at the world and doing business that is sustainable and really about connectedness and helping. Which is a thread I think that's run through this entire conversation about how you approach your work.
Cindy: I mean, yeah, absolutely. I feel like, you know, the, the strong women in my life have been so supportive and inspiring to me.
And it's sort of, you know, as I look around, I'm like, man, I feel like, I feel like we're on the cusp of something. Like we can really, you know, we have so many things that we're capable of doing and you know, whatever it takes, I feel like if we can help each other get there, that's a great thing.
Amy: On that note, I want to just thank you so much for sharing your time and your stories and your insights [00:33:00] about bringing innovative products to life.
Thank you, Cindy.
Cindy: Thanks for having me again.
Amy: It's been wonderful. We'll talk soon.
Outro: Thanks for listening to Getting2Alpha with Amy Jo Kim, the shows that help you innovate faster and smarter. Be sure to check out our website, getting2alpha.com. That's getting2alpha.com for more great resources and podcast episodes.