Episode 12: Collaborators' experiences II: South Africa, Sint Maarten, Austria

This is part II of collaborators' experiences: In this episode, you will learn about the experiences of interviewers and colleagues who actively contributed to the research process in the scope of this project. Colleagues from South Africa, Sint Maarten and Austria will share how they perceived the research process in their local contexts. They will talk about the moments they liked as well as the challenges they encountered both concerning interviewing citizens about their experiences with public services in the digital era and concerning the project more generally. 

See more on the project: https://www.hcw.ac.at/en/forschung/projekte-und-aktivitaeten/digital-public-services-and-ombuds-role-in-access-to-justice.html

See more on my work: https://personen.hcw.ac.at/julia-dahlvik/

This research is funded by Austrian Science Fund (FWF) [grant DOI 10.55776/V970].

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Episode 12: Collaborators' experiences in South Africa, Sint Maarten, Austria

Welcome back to the podcast on access to justice in the era of digitalized public services. In this episode, we will hear about the experiences of interviewers and colleagues who actively contributed to the research process in the scope of the project. Colleagues from South Africa, Sint Maarten and Austria will share how they perceive the research process, both concerning interviewing citizens about their experiences and challenges with public services in the digital era and concerning the project more generally. Let's directly start by listening to Basetsana Tsotsetsi, a two-time graduate of the University of Pretoria, South Africa, in political science and public administration. She has experience in research and knowledge management and is currently an intern at South Africa's public ombud institution, the Public Protector, where I had the pleasure of working with her during my field research. At a later stage, she also conducted interviews with citizens in the scope of the project. First, I was interested in her experience of collaborating with a researcher from abroad.

Good day to the guests and to all the listeners. In South Africa, we say Sanibonani, Molweni, Dumelang. When I was first introduced to the research, I was hesitant. You know, I was hesitant. Honestly, the topic of digitalization was something I had often avoided. I avoided it. I had a lot of questions. I was worried if will Puffin and I understand each other because of the accent? Will I hear her? Will she understand me? Will we work well together? Will I meet her needs? What are her expectations? And really, she didn't have a lot of expectations. But there were a lot of questions. And when Prof Dahlvik arrived in South Africa, the fields disappeared. And we worked very well together. We developed a strong working relationship. I learned a lot from her. She taught me a lot. And it was an honour to work with her. It was an honour. I learned a lot. And it was also rewarding for me to, teach her about my country, go to different places to expose her to the diverse realities. So it has been amazing. But what I love the most about this opportunity is that it gave me a platform, you know, as a young person, it gave me a platform to empower myself, It gave me a chance to go professionally and gain practical experience, especially being in a country where there's high youth unemployment. It gave me a chance to grow. It gave me a foothold in the field of research. I am grateful for that opportunity because it has improved my CV. It has improved my CV. And I also realised that when conducting interviews that learning was a two-way process because going into this project, I was like, oh, I'm just conducting interviews. I thought I would be the one speaking. I'll not be learning anything. It's just the process and stuff. But to my surprise, I was learning a lot because I was not just asking questions or sharing knowledge, but I was also being taught by participants who shed insights of things that I was not even aware of. Even after interviews, conversations continued. And honestly, there were moments where I wished that leaders, the government, you know, government employees, public servants, policy makers, they were there to listen to the discussions, you know, because I was learning A lot. I was learning a lot and it made me realize that South Africa has intelligent and insightful young people with valuable perspectives, only if they could, the government would listen, you know, if leaders would listen to them. So overall, it has been an amazing experience, and I am very, very, very grateful to have collaborated with Prof Dahlvik, honestly.

Basetsana mentions a certain insecurity in the beginning when we didn't know each other and each other's expectations. But very quickly our collaboration turned out very well-being in a different country and context as a researcher and being accompanied by a local person is very enriching. It is a great way of learning about countries and societies. I learned a lot about South Africa through spending a good time with Basetsana, just as I learned about South Korea from my collaborators, as we heard in the previous episode. I also asked her about her experiences with interviewing people for this project.

My interview experience was insightful, and honestly, I learned a lot from each interview that I conducted. It was interesting to see how different people engaged with the topic. some people even requested me to be part of the research, not to be just interviewed, but to assist, to do what I was doing, asking how can they assist me. And as much as that was encouraging, I had to keep reminding them that I don't make those kinds of decisions. I don't make those kind of decisions. But it was an amazing experience and the feedback was positive.

And were there any challenges?

There were challenges. There were challenges. Conducting the interviews required travelling to different locations, which involved financial costs. And there were times where I had to use two modes of transport, three modes of transport, because I was travelling from one city to another, to another. And there were interviews that had to be done online. So that they had to be done online. So stable Wi-Fi was necessary because South Africa has been experiencing storms lately. So when there's a storm, Wi-Fi connection is bad. Sometimes it'd say connected without internet. So that makes it hard because it means interviews had to be postponed. interview, we had to rearrange with the participants. We had to like make a plan or come up with a plan B. And there were people also who wanted to participate, who wanted to be interviewed. But I was not able to interview them because they are in the rural area and internet there is also a problem. So they don't have access to stable internet. And to make it harder, I even tried calling them using airtime and still not be able to reach them. So I could not continue with the interview. So yeah, those were the challenges. And also another challenge, what I mean with safety, I had relied a lot on e-hailing services for transportation. which raised serious safety concerns because, we read stories. We see online stories about girls who went missing, girls who were harassed by the healing driver. And for me, this concerns intensified when after I lost a friend who went missing and was later found deceased. Initially, it was suspected that an e-hailing driver may have been involved in her death, although further investigation later revealed otherwise. So during that time, it was difficult for me to use e-hailing transportation because it's just me and this stranger. So, and I think of what happened to my friend and all the stories that I read online, what I saw on the news. So for me, it was a bit, it made me not to be comfortable. And also, I remember now with my, with the hostel, so most hostels in Houting females are not allowed in the premises. And most of these men who stay there, they are very traditional, they may not even speak to females, especially with such topics, like why? So I had to have someone who's male assisting me, you know, to act as a bridge between me and them, to assist me with things that I was not allowed to do. For example, entering into the premises, you know, I had to have someone who understood the life in the hostel to know when to speak, you know, how to speak, So I had to have someone like that to assist me. And even to conduct the interviews, I could not conduct it outside the hostel premises because of the crime outside, because taking out my phone, it means it could be smashed. So I also had to find a safe location to conduct the interview. So that was also a bit of a challenge. And you would have aggressive, I don't want to say aggressive, but maybe an aggressive participant. But with that one, it was not much of a challenge because I think it's just understanding why the participant reacts the way they react. So which makes it easier then to understand them and just meet them halfway. But all in all, it was a great experience.

Basetsana mentions a number of challenges for conducting interviews in the South African context. Difficulties related to travelling and logistics, problems concerning access to stable internet, as well as costs arising from doing research. Most importantly, she mentions the issue of safety as South Africa has very high crime rates. This is also an issue that often came up in conversations and during my field research travels throughout the country. Lastly, Basetsana also highlights some gender-related aspects of doing research and dealing with emotions in interviews. These are all very important topics to deal with and reflect on when doing qualitative research. Another aspect one has to deal with is the selection of interview partners. I asked Bassetona how she went about choosing and contacting potential interview partners.

It was important for me to obtain a proper representation of a wider population, you know, rather than just focusing on one specific area or group, which I believe would have not represented the diversity of people across the province or the country. So by selecting participants from different walks of life, I was able to, include individuals with different experiences, professions, educational backgrounds, These participants were also drawn from different areas in the country. They were drawn from townships, villages, and formal settlements. You know, it was different kinds of groups. It was individuals who had interacted with the departments and ombudsman's officers. And the other group were people who have neither or who have not, let me say, who have not interacted with this offices, so diversity allowed me to capture a broad range of perspectives on digitalization.

It is important to note that although qualitative research is not about representativity, it is still relevant to get a broad range of different views as we're interested in individuals' in-depth accounts of their sometimes different, sometimes similar experiences and practices. Lastly, I asked Basetsana whether there is anything else she wants to share with our listeners.

Especially regarding ombudsman institutions, I believe there is a strong need for public education about their role. It is concerning that young educated individuals are not aware of ombudsman offices, their mandates, or the services that they provide. Some don't even know the meaning of ombudsman. And some view these institutions as ineffective and prefer to raise their concerns on social media instead of approaching an ombudsman office. I believe that this is an issue that needs to be addressed. Ombudsman, different ombudsman institutions within the country, and if possible, internationally, they need to sit down and discuss these issues and address them. But also people with access to different resources, people with smartphones, with internet, I believe they can use those smartphones to educate themselves on such institutions, to educate themselves on their mandate. But also, it is impossible to learn about an institution that you don't even know exists. Therefore, ombudsman institutions need to make themselves more visible and accessible. I believe that once people are properly informed, then many will be willing to engage with these officers. And my last point has to be, may we avoid making assumptions. Let's not forget people who are in rural areas, people who are in townships, poor communities, the elderly. May we not forget these people. You know, no one should be left behind in this process. May we avoid making assumptions that everyone can and is able. May we avoid that because assumptions just create a gap. And that's not what we want. everyone to be a part of this process.

Basetsana highlights a problem that most ombud institutions around the world share, namely that people often don't know about them or they don't know what the ombud can do for them. So it's a challenge of both visibility and accessibility. She also underscores the importance of including disadvantaged and marginalized groups, which is particularly relevant when talking about digitalization and access to justice. Next, we will hear from Rose Pooran-Fleming, who conducted interviews with citizens in Sint Maarten. Rose holds a master's degree in International Communication Management from The Hague University, a bachelor's degree in Business Administration, and she completed advanced studies in International Information and Communication in Groningen. Rose is a senior public sector leader currently serving as senior policy advisor at the Ministry of Economic Affairs, Tourism, Telecommunications and Transport and has been appointed to the Committee of Civil Servants Unions by the Prime Minister of Sint Maarten. She was also represented on the Dutch Caribbean Research Platform. Given her extensive experience abroad, I was interested in how she perceived our collaboration.

It was not difficult for me to participate in this kind of research or even collaborate with a foreign researcher. I myself have a master's degree. I've conducted research. I run projects within government and I do have even worked with foreign researchers before. So this was quite, it was actually enjoying, quite enjoyable for me.

As Rose explains, her expertise and experience from previous research made it easy for her to contribute to this project. I asked her about her interviewing experience in this project and what were some of the challenges she encountered.

I actually enjoyed the interview experience. Some of the challenges in the second batch had to do with logistics. The fact that we were going into the Christmas season and then into the new year. And you know, it takes its toll and timing is always an issue around that time of year. But besides that, I think it actually was really nice to have the discussion with the persons that took part and to get their views on how they feel about public online services. Also very interesting on what they see as the drawbacks. I think across the board, everyone can agree for the most part that it's good for young persons and that it's actually perhaps even good for services. in the way we provide services moving forward, but you still get a sense that persons are not ready to let go. Having a counter to go directly to people and get their services done quickly, as opposed to waiting for weeks and sometimes even months, or having to go through the process to hear that their documents have been lost or that their receipt has not been processed. So these are some of the challenges.

Similar to Basetsana, Rose mentions the aspect of logistics when organizing interviews with different people, pointing out the importance of picking the right place for an interview, just as Basetsana mentioned. In the following, Rose notes that she might try out different settings if she were to do the interviews again.

I don't think I would actually do anything differently in terms of how I get my candidates. What I think I would do, though, if I had to do it again, is that I would ask persons to come to a specific location and I'll try to schedule them mostly on one day or a second day. I didn't realize I could use the university as one of the rooms as a facilitating point. So in hindsight, I would have just done all of the interviews on premises instead of driving about to meet persons. And yet it was still very comfortable because when persons are in their own environment, they're also happy to conduct an interview. So it would be one of those things I would consider to do differently. And if after doing one or two, I realized it's not the ideal setting, then I would revert to the way I actually conducted these interviews.

As Rose mentions, it's crucial to have a flexible approach when organizing interviews, and it can be worthwhile to try things out to see what works best. And I would say that generally in doing field research, it's essential to be flexible and creative. I also asked Rose how she selected her interview partners.

The sampling was done in my own network, so persons that I know that use online services and discussions with them and based on what we're trying to achieve in the government with having public online services and what we think already are some of the hindrances. So my sampling was a bit not as random as it could be if I had just put like a call in a newspaper, I'm pretty sure, and put my number, persons would have called randomly. And maybe, just maybe, the quality of the interview wouldn't have been as good. But that is something that maybe we can take into account for further studies that possibly a random call can be made in a newspaper.

As mentioned before, trying out different approaches can help reach different people and invite them to share their stories for research. Last, I ask Rose if there's anything else she wants to share with our listeners.

I think what's important for listeners, especially if you're going to have listeners that are worldwide is that persons all over the globe are educated. So things that are far-reaching in one country is more than likely far-reaching in somewhere else. So I think as professionals, intellectuals, even professors, academics, I think if we do more to reach out to each other, we actually are able to continue to progress forward and build pools of knowledge that also help to inspire new theories, but also help to create breakthroughs that are necessary just for everyday life, for all demographics. Thank you so much.

Rose points out that similar developments happen in different parts of the world and that it's important that we connect and exchange about these issues. It's definitely an aim of this research project to make a contribution in this regard. Let's now hear from Hannah Medea Breier, whose voice you already know from previous podcast episodes. She has a degree in sociology, is a junior researcher in this project, and is currently studying at the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna. In the scope of the project, she has produced reports on the different countries' contexts and is a co-author of several publications emerging from this study. I was interested in which impact participating in the project had on Hannah.

So when I started this project, I honestly didn't know that much about ombuds institutions. I knew they existed, but they were a part of the public sector that I rarely thought about. And my understanding was mostly shaped by my own experiences with digital public platforms, where I often felt very lost and didn't know what platform to use for what. And still was very aware that things like my financial security or livelihood depended on navigating these platforms correctly. And what really surprised me during the project was realizing how shared, like how similar these shared experiences are. Even though people's social and political contexts are very different, many struggle with quite similar issues when interacting with public institutions and digital systems. And at the same time, it was fascinating to see how these challenges play out differently across regions and parts of the world that are all differently shaped by history, infrastructure, and power relations. And yeah, overall, working on this project has been and is a very positive experience. I really enjoy learning about other countries, about their histories and their present situations, and how institutions operate and function within them. And I also appreciate that part of the project is about asking what could be improved, especially around digitalization, without imposing solutions from the outside.

As Basetsana also mentioned, it is quite common that people, and especially younger people, don't know about ombuds institutions. Hannah also points out that she was surprised to see the similarities among people's experiences in very different contexts, but that it's also interesting to see how challenges play out differently. The comparative approach is definitely one of the strengths of this project. I also asked her about any challenges she encountered in her work on this project.

What I personally struggle with a bit is a certain skepticism towards institutions where I do see their potential to ease hardships and improve certain conditions, but I also feel that justice can never be fully delivered from the top down. For me, it has to be created through people's own actions and relationships and forms of collective organizing.

Hannah mentions an important point that justice has to emerge through collective organization, not from the top down. In the project, we also look at citizens' practices and reactions to the increasing digitalization of public services. A paper we're currently working on deals with resistant practices in different world regions. Lastly, as Hannah is regularly contributing to the podcast, I was interested in her thoughts on this form of sharing progress in the project.

I think that's also part of what I like about the podcast. Yeah, that it's just a space to help translate complex research into something a bit more accessible, and that it also invites people who are affected by these systems to listen, reflect, and maybe see their own experience represented. And I think that kind of knowledge sharing is important. not because it offers final answers, but because it invites people to reflect and opens up conversations that otherwise wouldn't happen and that maybe can spark other forms of change.

I also hope that the podcast offers insights into our listeners and provides food for thought on some of the questions we face both in doing this research and as users of public services in an increasingly digitalized context. I would like to thank Basetsana, Rose and Hannah very much for their valuable contributions to this research project and for sharing their experiences and thoughts in this podcast. It was a great pleasure collaborating with you and learning about the challenges of digitalizing public services in the respective local contexts. Thank you for listening and stay tuned.