Episode 13: Special Episode: IISL Research Line 'AI and New Technologies'

In this special episode we will hear about the new Research Line 'AI and New Technologies' introduced by the International Institute for the Sociology of Law (IISL) in 2026. The Institute was established in Oñati, Gipuzkoa, Spain in 1988 by the International Sociological Association’s Research Committee on the Sociology of Law and the Government of the Basque Country. 'AI and New Technologies' is one of six Research Lines; it is coordinated by Germano Schwartz (University La Salle) and Stefan Larsson (Lund University). The Research Line brings together scholars from around the world to explore how AI and emerging technologies are reshaping society and legal systems, focusing on challenges in legitimacy, accountability, rights, and institutional adaptation. In this podcast episode I will talk with Camilo Umaña, Director of the Institute, Germano Schwartz and Stefan Larsson to learn more about the aims and ideas of the new Research Line. The episode thus deals with the broader research context to which my project and the previous episodes are related. 

Find more details about the Research Line and the IISL here: https://www.iisj.net/en/research/2026-research-lines/3-ai-and-new-technologies

See more on the project: https://www.hcw.ac.at/en/forschung/projekte-und-aktivitaeten/digital-public-services-and-ombuds-role-in-access-to-justice.html

See more on my work: https://personen.hcw.ac.at/julia-dahlvik/

This research is funded by Austrian Science Fund (FWF) [grant DOI 10.55776/V970].

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:03

Research and innovation for the public sector, politics and business. News from the department, administration, economic, security, politics, and economic company.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

So welcome to the 13th episode of this research podcast. It's a special episode today, as I have the pleasure to welcome online three guests to talk about new developments in the field of digitalization and AI in the context of social media research. More concretely, we will hear about the current efforts of institutionalizing research in this field internationally. So this episode deals with the broader research context to which my project and the previous episodes are related. Let me now welcome today's guests. We have Camilo Umania, who is the scientific director of the International Institute for the Sociology of Law, located in Oniati in the Basque country. And we have Stefan Langson, Associate Professor in Technology and Social Change at the University of Lund in Sweden, and German of Marx, Professor of Law at La Salle University in Canoes, Brazil. Welcome and thank you for joining this podcast to present your new collaboration project. So this year, 2026, the International Institute for the Sociology of Law introduced six research lines, one of them with the focus on AI and new technologies. Camilo, can you tell us more about this initiative? What's the aim of the research lines?

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Thank you, Julia. Yes. Hello everyone. AI is present in our schools, hospitals, tribunals, and daily interactions. Yet, the rules that govern it are still being written. Algorithms come together at a faster pace than laws and regulations. Rights are unclear and technological innovation is happening every second. In times of evolving global challenges, including the decline of democracy, the intensification of warfare, the penetration of technological advances such as artificial intelligence replacing human decision making, environmental degradation, and the entrenchment of authoritarianism. The International Institute for the Sociology of Law wants to help to understand these complex dynamics. We have defined, as you mentioned, six research lines reflecting our commitment to understanding how law responds to today's major social transformation. One of our lines, a foundational one, is on AI and new technologies. Our focus is on how technological change is outpacing legal frameworks around the world. We see regulatory gaps, over-regulation, fragmented approaches, and major differences between jurisdictions. This group studies the evolving landscape through five interconnected themes. And I guess they will explain further what these components are about. Let me just open this conversation saying that we are very glad to host this line. We really believe that this can take us to very interesting research results. And I want to open this conversation with a main question. So why don't we start with Stefan? Stefan, what are the main challenges that you are perceiving in your research line? And how about you tell us a bit about these components on of the of the line?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Sure, sure. Thanks. I'm glad to be in the podcast, by the way. To me, I mean, I have a background in sociology of law and law, but work at an engineering faculty. So I'm and I see this intersection very much of technologies being developed, and particularly AI. There's lots of talk about AI. And there's a lot of faith, you could say, also, a lot of investments going into AI development, but also implementation in various sectors. It's just that to me, we need to study those impacts or the actual sort of um uh outcomes from a societal lens, I think. And I think sociology of law offers some of those tools. That's attractive to me, at least, in the sense that we can study unintended consequences, we can study values, norms, we can study social norms and legal norms, you know, combined. We and we can study um uh, you know, are there outcomes that that hits uh vulnerable groups in some ways that it shouldn't really? So all of those things to me are uh key paths ahead for research that I don't think necessarily that that the more narrow technological uh research can capture. So I think we need to offer those things as you know, social scientists, but particularly then going into governance and law and norms, uh social legal scientists. So I mean and and the research line, although it's very broad, new technologies and AI is as you said, Camilo, also um uh being implemented in various types of sectors. So we we we have at least done uh a first sort of division of five themes, uh, and I'm just gonna briefly mention them before I hand over to uh Germano as well. Um of course, law as such needs to be addressed, sort of obviously. Um is law fit for governing these new types of technologies, and and it's almost always uh a bunch of wrinkles to it. It's not, you know, it always needs to be developed or reinterpreted uh in various ways. So I think that's that's what why we put that as number one in a sense, right? We we tend to focus on regulatory uh questions as social legal scientists. But then number two, then, which is one of those most clearly addressed challenges with AI, is that the data used to train models tends to be uh poorly sampled or skewed in some sense, which leads to discriminatory sort of outcomes. So discrimination, which you bake into these equality questions, are of course at the core that we need to, which is not necessarily a technical question, but more like a social legal, how we build societies question. So that's number two then. Number three would be public sector, which is also Philam uh doing research in with my with my research group, how the public sector is transformed or changed, and I mean lots of your work, uh Yule, is in that sort of um section too. Um and of course, we could debate how broad we think of technology. Is it digitization, is it the internet, is it data, or is it AI? And and uh that's a good conversation, but the question is still is public sector being transformed in a way we don't want it to be transformed? Should we govern it better? Should we change it? And number four and five would be uh medical usages, because that's one often in the public sector too, but it's such a high-stakes sector, you could say, if you put AI into it, if it's also a little bit black box or non-transparent. With some opportunities, some promises that needs to be guided, I think. Uh, lastly, which is one of those super big questions, is your political questions too. Like how do we, as states or uh actors, depend on certain types of players, you know, or the intersection between global north, global south, or uh EU, US, China, all of those sort of large-scale questions comes back. It's it's like an ongoing dynamic, but but one of those latest questions depends on who controls uh what AI models, um, AI connectivity, who develops on what data, and things like that. So that's our fifth strand, you could say. So it's like an attempt to divide, but then all of them are rich and needs further scrutiny from I guess the community of social legal researchers.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Great. Thank you, Stefan, thank you, Camilo. Uh Germano, um, would you like to add something on that?

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Oh well, firstly thank thank you for Julia and Camilo to to organize this podcast. It's it's great to be with you guys in this morning here in Brazil. And by the time that we are recording, uh you can be surprised, but it's it's cold here in Brazil. But anyway, I guess I guess Stefan summarize really well what we are aiming with the with the research line at Innati. But what I would like to add is that in the end, what we are trying to do with the research line is to together people around the world that are interested to join us in such a challenge to research these points that show us how both the institute and the RCSL is nowadays worried about how the social transformations are are shaping the future of our democracy and also the future of law. I forgot to tell you that my background is in law, and my bachelor is in law, so I'll like my PhD, and that I'm not a sociologist of law. I'm kind of a lawyer who likes to study sociology based on social systems theory. And having said that, it's it's pretty clear to me that the mechanisms that makes possible the co-evolution of society are present in this topic that is AI, new technologies, and all the people who are listening to us, they are more than welcome to join us and to contribute to it to research line.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Thank you, Germano. Um, maybe to both of you or also to Camillo, um, what are your thoughts on why for this specific topic? I mean it's a really broad topic, uh, but also, yeah, as you said, Stefan, my research is also in this field, and I just see it's it's so big because everything is interconnected. Um, but why why do you think it's important to have, on the one hand, interdisciplinary research in this field? And is there anything specific about this topic that makes it even more important to collaborate on an international level?

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm jumping in here. Yeah, I think uh to me it's very attractive and and it's kind of hard to uh organize international um efforts in a sense. And that's why it's uh very attractive to me to do this through the ONYAT Institute and then also connect it to you know South America, Europe. It's also, of course, very diverse in the way I look at it, but also we have Japanese members in the research committee of sociology of law. Um, you know, so combine those techniques and see how it's played out. We need to study those the way it is played out in different um, for example, public sector or or uh medical usages. And and that needs to be compared and draw sort of um uh insights from, I think. So that's one of the attractive things to be able to do that is because it's very hard to manage that. For example, if I would go for a project in in Sweden and get it funded in Sweden to make those sort of international linkages, it's it's um it's hard. So that's at least one sort of argument for why to do it as a research line um through the institute, I think.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yeah, uh, if I could jump into the discussion, into the discussion, Julia. Algorithms, AI, they are present in every every part of our lives, so it's it's undeniable that we need to study how their connections with the transformation of law and everything. So I guess the the good question is the one that Stefan was answering. So how can how can we create these connections not only in a regional or in a nation nation and state level, right? So because if I use my ways to drive in Sweden, for example, I would be using my Brazilian ways to drive in in the my ways, it's it's learning with me for I don't know how many years, and perhaps they would start to to drive in Sweden like a Brazilian, which I don't know if that would be good, but anyway. But this is a simple question. You can imagine if in the shared power uh they are using these new technologies like AIs, like algorithms. Well, algorithms is not new, but anyway, to to decide to decide suits and to decide about everyday people's lives and other problems. So yes from time to time I used to say that the system of law is pressured by these thematic communications that are around uh are around the C system, right? So the the most probable pressure right now is the use of AI and its tools to uh to speed up decisions, to to to try to uh I don't know in some way uh to make better decisions if you think about if this is bad or not. And the the privilege that we have to to be part of this research group, in my opinion, is that we have ONG as a facilitator as this global interconnection, interconnected uh worldwide uh institute that can provide us not only workshops, publications, but to know people in Japan, in South Africa, in South America, in Africa, everywhere in Latin America that are also uh researching about it. And it was really surprising to me to see how many people have sent their emails asking us to to be part of the of the working group, the research group, sorry. But AI is a reality. You you can like you can like it or you don't like it about AI, but the fact is that we need it to study and our connections with law.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

That's great. Thank you. Um Camilo um Onyati or the International Institute uh for the sociology of law is now like taking an important step to institutionalize this specific research. Um why why is it this institute? Why is it best suited to do this?

SPEAKER_04 15:46

Well, Onyati is sort of in the middle of the mountains in the Basque Country, so we are not precisely a big tech hub. However, um we there it is a crossing path of many, many researchers. And if you start listening to people who visit us, around 300 people, the scholars that visit us in the year, you will discover that there is a lot of anxiety and a lot of thoughts given to these interactions with AI and new technologies. And even if you are not addressing that specific topic, everyone is concerned about the impact of AI in their own research, as a methodological concern. So I guess this is this is really important. Even as a mere operation of the educational system as a part of the university, uh as a professor, you are all the time confronted with uh the idea of how to integrate or not uh these technologies into your classes. So it is it is a basic and foundational line for us, and it's a very serious topic, also because we can see that this is also uh reproducing some inequalities in the world and also creating new ones. Um we are seeing how the distribution of power, but also the distribution of resources is really impacting different parts of the world. And uh let's say that the United Institute has always been concerned with social justice and and a human rights perspective. Um, and of course, in terms of methodology and understanding these challenges, uh, what you mentioned, uh Julia, I think it's very important about interdisciplinarity. Um we know that lawyers cannot make reasonable rules uh that govern these kinds of problems without knowing about engineering. Uh Stefan is on an engineering uh faculty, without knowing about other contexts that are not merely the local ones. You need to know about international regulations, but also broader impacts on the environment and so on. In the vast country, there are many discussions now about data centers, how it relates to the water supply, how it relates to global and climate change, and also how this all is connected with with a new uh sort of uh international order and international disorder, you can call it. So every everything is very much connected in terms of uh methodology, in terms of topic, but also in terms of perspective of what is going on. So let's say that the institute wants to jump in into this uh discussion, not merely as an expectator, but also as a participant that can contribute to some of these problems.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

So I was wondering um what are the events or the the steps that you will take now in the near future or even in the long term? So uh what is happening next, but also feel free to to add anything to the previous questions if you feel like it.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

We we have realized in uh at the end of April in Oyaton workshop that was pretty much oriented by the research line, GAA, uh our research line. And uh the workshop was about the uh digital oligarchies and the problems of democracy and the rule of law right now. And this workshop is now with the with the group that was part of the workshop. They they wrote their papers with hope that six or twelve months we can publish the results, the outcomes of the workshop. And we are hoping to to organize also online meetings and also publications that we are trying to organize right now. Now, I don't know if Stefan wants to explain a little bit more, but to be honest, we this is really new for us as well. So as this podcast, which was uh which was a great idea that you and and Camilo came up for us. So I guess these are the next steps that we are trying to do. I I need to say that with some members of the search group, I am now trying to organize uh an application for Brazilian government, a special call that Brazilian government is organizing between Brazil and Africa, and there we are trying to discuss how this actuarial governance is trying to substitute the legal rationality that we have created uh in these two last centuries, substituting the ideas of civil justice and human rights for predictions, crediting scores, and how these are reproducing in South Africa and Brazil, uh, racial problems, sexist problems, and etc. and etc. So these applications is also an outcome of our research line.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

That sounds highly interesting, thank you. Stefan, you wanted to add something?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

No, I think the core idea, and and please um send us more ideas is to encourage people to gather, to draw from this. Um and of course, AI is sort of at the tip of the tongue from most universities, I guess, but uh but it would probably could probably be useful for also young scientists to say that I need to study this critically or from a social legal lens. And here's an international uh group we I can say that I'm working with. So I mean just reach out if you need that. And and the Unyati Institute is also part of, of course, of that sort of community creation. So that's what that's what I find attractive to to encourage that sort of studies. And Jeremamu's examples are some of those that he's been leading then. But we We need to gather more of those forces, I think.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Okay, thank you. Um, yeah, Camilo, did you want to say some finalizing words on the research line, or did you have some questions for your colleagues?

SPEAKER_04 22:14

No, simply simply to add that uh we are uh on an early stage of the research line, we are learning together. So this is also the experience of learning in community. There is no preeminence of any outlook, but we we try to contribute and try to have this community sense, bringing up and and giving uh shedding light to new questions but also to new challenges. Of course, we come from very different places and we have very different views. So uh trying to have um a sort of multipolar kind of view of these issues is is I think very important and it's going to raise new and new questions. I think the invitation of Stefan to to have uh maybe new projects, new initiatives, or uh as as was Germano was was mentioning, uh this funding initiative, but even without funds, the idea of discussing new topics I think is is exciting enough. I would like to ask so many things to Germano and Stefan. Uh maybe some uh a closing, very close, closing question, which is are you worried? You you guys are studying this topic. Uh sometimes I get very pessimistic about this. Um I can see the light, uh, of course, but I I always get very pessimistic about what is going on. Are you also worried, you who are a specialist on this topic?

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Oh, I'm really not, to be honest. Uh no. I live enough to pass for these fashion things in law. So AI is just another tool that we can, it's a powerful tool. Powerful tool. Like I don't think we had this kind of tool in the past in order to make our social our society evolve or come back. Anyway, but if you remember Camilo when internet starts, all these problems were were in the table. And anyway, nowadays internet is part of our life. What I really think is that if we are pessimists or optimists, core point is that we need to study, we need to understand what it is. And the the problems that some people are just against it, but they just don't get it, they just don't study, they just don't go deeper in the problem, and that's the purpose of our research line here.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah, to me, I'm uh driven by um keep the priorities straight in a sense. Uh, because there's lots of arguments on kind of just resting on that new technology is good because it's new in a sense, right? So a lot of um investments are being made, and then different types of representatives for public sector or uh yeah, universities or companies, they just feel that it will be great as long as we keep up with the newest new thing, right? But to me, that's the wrong priority. The priority should always be some sort of societal lens first. So you always have to sort of push down the new technologies so see what they support. So I think that's my driving force to look at the technologies through society, not the other way around. I think.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Thank you very much. That was very, very interesting, very insightful. And I personally, of course, I also think this this research line is really important for all the reasons that we've been talking about, like internationally, um, interdisciplinary, and also the institutionalization. I think it's really important to also be visible with that research that is happening. Um, so that ideally also more practitioners and maybe politicians would even draw on the research that is happening. Um because I think um what what is special and important about research is that we have a critical lens, right? Because my impression is that uh much of what is happening is is I think being seen in a very also optimistic and maybe too optimistic or even naive way of what AI can do and where we can go with it. So I think um the research, the sociological and social legal research can really help, as you said also German, um understand what is actually happening and where we're going. I think that's that's what makes the topic a bit like particular in comparison to some other topics because it's so much really just emerging. So we're studying studying it while it's happening, while it's emerging. So we I think we're also studying social change while it's happening. So that's uh that makes the the research line and the topic really um also so so broad, maybe and exploratory, because we sometimes don't even really know where where we're going. So I think it's fascinating, and it was a pleasure to host you. Um really looking forward to what is going to happen next with the research line, and I hope that um many more scholars will will join the line.

SPEAKER_04 27:42

Thank you for having us. Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Thank you too.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Wishing you all um a great day in um Spain, in Brazil, and in Sweden.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Thank you, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

You Julia Research and Innovations, Department, Administration, Economics, Security, Politics, and Hompost.