The Leather Trail: Tanner Leatherstein’s Global Journey to Fame | Emily Blumenthal & Tanner Leatherstein

Meet Volkan Yilmaz, also known as “Tanner Leatherstein,” a leather artisan and entrepreneur whose journey spans continents. From his beginnings in his father’s tannery in Turkey to becoming a TikTok sensation in the U.S., Tanner’s story is one of resilience, creativity, and passion.

After moving to Turkmenistan and Armenia with his family to run tanneries, Tanner eventually found himself in Chicago, working as a cab driver after winning a green card lottery. Despite language barriers and culture shock, he pursued an MBA and combined his traditional leather expertise with modern business skills.

Tanner’s brand, Pagai, and his viral TikTok videos, where he deconstructs luxury handbags, have educated and entertained millions, shedding light on leather quality, craftsmanship, and industry practices.

Key takeaways include the importance of understanding leather quality, transparency in craftsmanship, and sustainability in production. Tanner’s story is a testament to the power of tradition, innovation, and perseverance.

Key Takeaways:

1. Leather Quality: Educating designers and consumers about tanning, leather grades, and sourcing enhances handbag durability and value.
2. Craftsmanship Transparency: Showcasing the production process builds trust and appreciation for the artistry.
3. Sustainability: Embrace eco-friendly tanning, upcycled materials, and ethical sourcing to align with sustainable fashion trends.

Host Emily Blumenthal is a handbag industry expert, author of Handbag Designer 101, and founder of The Handbag Awards. Known as the “Handbag Fairy Godmother,” she has collaborated with leading brands such as Swarovski, Kenneth Cole, Henri Bendel, Kate Spade, and Macy’s. Emily also teaches entrepreneurship at the Fashion Institute of Technology and is dedicated to celebrating creativity, craftsmanship, and the art of building iconic handbag brands.

Follow Tanner Leatherstein:

https://www.instagram.com/tanner.leatherstein/ 

https://www.tiktok.com/@tanner.leatherstein

Transcript

Welcome To The Handbag World

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, and welcome to Handbag Designer 101 the podcast with your host, Emily Blumenthal, Handbag Industry Expert, and the Handbag Perry Godmother. Each week we uncover the stories behind the handbags we love, from the iconic brands and top designers, the creativity, craftsmanship, and culture that define the handbag world. Whether you're a designer, collector, or simply passionate about handbags, this is your front row seat to it all.

Meet Tanner Leatherstein

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Welcome Tanner Leatherstein to the Handbag Designer 101 podcast. So happy to have you.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Thanks for having me. Thanks for the invitation and taking the time. I am happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Good. You should be. Listen, your rise to fame is pretty wild. So why don't you give a quick overview of who you are and what you are and what you do, and then we'll get to the roots and the weeds as to how you got to where you are.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Absolutely. Tana Letterstein is my personal brand. It's not my actual name. That's usually the first question to clear. That would be too good to be true doing what I do and having that name and last name. So my real name is Vulcan, and I was born in Turkey. And I think it was about 2009 I moved to the United States out of just a random green card letter.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

But for business school, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

No, no, it was a green card lottery that I didn't even apply. Someone did for me. And it was totally so that was a company I applied about three, four years prior to that. And they said I checked the box for them to make it five years in repetition. I forgot.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Oh, to continue to apply every single year.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yes. And then first year I was waiting and then it didn't happen. I forgot about all that. Yeah, yeah. To three or third or fourth year, I received this email saying that I want a green card. I was like, oh, let me read this email how they want to scam me and all that stuff. That's how it started. So which makes sense. That's how I came here.

Growing Up In A Turkish Tannery

SPEAKER_00 2:02

And until that point, I was all in leather. I was born into a family-owned tannery in Turkey. And I was running behind my father in business since I was eight, nine years old.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Can I ask you something about that?

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

So, where in Turkey are you from?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Shanaqale is my hometown, which is the ancient Troy region and the northwest coast. It's right across Greece. And it's like four or five hours' drive from Istanbul. That's where I grew up. That's where we had our tannery.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

So you grew up in one area and then the family had to drive back and forth to get to the tannery, or you guys moved from the street.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

No, we were we were all in Chanakale in the tannery town. We were living there, but most of our business was in Istanbul. So basically, we were going and coming back from Istanbul once a week. It was like just we had um the whole family places. Mostly my dad, but pretty much every other week we were going as well, just for the weekend and things like that. So it was a lot of traveling.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

How many siblings do you have?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

I have a brother, he's still in Turkey, and currently my brand Pegae, he's doing the manufacturing crafting in the same building that used to be our tannery. Now we turned it into a workshop.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Well, you knew the owner, right? Of the buildings.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

So was it understood that you would go into the family business per se, or did you want to, or was it like, hey, this is okay, like welcome to the business.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

I was dying to. My dad really enjoyed having me around, but I was the one dying to get in. They had to convince me to go to college. I was ready to drop out of that high school and you know just go full into leather tanning. But they forced me, like you have to go to college and get a degree, and that's how I got a degree eventually in business.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

It's it's a good thing they did. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Absolutely. Then it led me to get my MBA here and all that. Without a college degree, I wouldn't be able to do anything.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

So did you immediately work with your dad, like at through college, after college? Was it like, okay, here, Baba, I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Like you can get them a basically, it was during high school. I was very involved. I was technically running the tannery because my dad was always traveling. I was the one taking care of the production and tannery, even though I was in high school after school, during you know, breaks, I was just on my phone doing the work.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Oh my god. Was that weird for the workers? Because I'm sure they had worked for your dad for the whole time. Because turnover factory is just really low over there, right? It's the same family is work there year after year, and here's the kid, the son of the owner who's telling me what to do.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Well, it didn't feel weird to me. At the beginning, it was a little uncomfortable, you know, sometimes having tough conversations with 50-year-old masters in the tannery because nobody else is there. I got used to it, and I don't think they took it weirdly because I was always there. They were used to me. They they kind of saw me like the kid. He was always around, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Oh my god. So, what did they make in the tannery? Was it specific to one thing or the other? Was it bad? Like, what was it?

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Mainly we were doing lamb sheepskins for garment production. That was our main line, either in a Napa format without the hair, like the ones you see behind me. And or then we started making the double face, we call it, which we keep the hair on the sheepskin as well. That you can make the jackets that has the four as well. So we were mainly doing that. But as some side projects requested, we were doing goat skins and some cow hides for different productions as well, including rabbits and different things I've experimented in tannery.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

You know, considering where you are now and coming from another country, I'm sure wastage was something that did not exist, right? Like any fall-off or anything, like there was always a way to find something to do with it, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Exactly. The essence of leather business is that basically the old hide is a wastage. If you don't touch it within the hour after the animal is slaughtered, it's just a trash. And it's it's a trash that could be infectious, you know. It needs to be handled carefully, it starts petrefying right away. We take it with salted, and then the tanning process starts, so it can get a second life as leather. So once you are in this industry, you always look at things like nothing should go to waste. Right. And in fact, that's what happens in in leather. Even the wastage from the tanning process goes back to sub-industries turning into different things. You know, right. Sometimes you might see what goes in there. It could be disgusting, imagining that's going to turn into a makeup product or things like that, or maybe even food ingredient, but nothing is wasted in the industry. And that that was a good way to learn making stuff, I think.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

It's so fascinating because I think the the background you have, right? There's so many people nowadays who aspirationally want to become designers, want to become creators. And one of the things I always say, amongst other people, is get experience working for someone else so you understand the process. Like, you know, the back end, because uh my first job was in media, and someone said you'd never open up a clothing store if you didn't know how to shop. And that stayed with me, right? Because you have to know how to buy, you have to know the process from inception. I mean, from this case, from the farm. So having this experience, it's like it puts you a hundred steps ahead already without even probably being aware of that.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Exactly. I wasn't aware of that. I was only in the tenning side up until 2016, 2017. I know how to take a row hide and make it into leather, and we were selling it to shoemakers, garment makers, or handbag makers, but I haven't done anything further than that. So it's extremely valuable though, like getting experience from the designers, working with them, understanding the creation process because it's an entirely different world. Again, I'm trying to learn every day now for the past six, seven years, but knowing the leather in depth as I had the privilege to learn. Definitely, yes, and the network you accumulate in the past 20, 25 years, all leather makers, tanneries around the world, like where you can find what, who does best what is immensely helpful when you try to design something? You know, I know where I'm gonna get that exact specific material that I need

Picking Leather For Each Bag Type

SPEAKER_00 8:21

here.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Can I ask you though, just from an expert perspective? And I spoke about this in my book, but I had to actually go to an expert because this wasn't knowledge that I had. In your personal opinion, which hides and skins and animals are best for which silhouettes? Can you just share those nuggets of gold with us? And I think, and it's so many designers make leather-based backpacks. And to me, in my opinion, I always think there's always a lease because they always sell the least, right? Unless it's a name brand. Because at the end of the day, the function of a backpack is to overstuff and to carry. They're less fashion forward, again, unless it's a label. Do you have an opinion on that? And also which skins for what bodies?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

So it is a very deep subject.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

But we could talk about this all day. This is so my jam, you don't even know. Like, forget your whole history. So, in terms of which leathers and skins do you think? And I know it's a loaded and long-answered question, but just for the neophytes listening, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

So, I think if I have to generalize, yeah, purely generalizing. But make something that is soft, it doesn't have to hold a lot of former structure. And we're talking about bags here. LEM skin is absolutely perfect, you know, it has a soft, nice touch, it's a good material that definitely distinct in feeling and look. Yeah, it's lighter, yeah, lighter. It's delicate, it's harder to keep. Probably it's not gonna last as long as a cow height, but that would be nice if you're working with a soft silhouette. If you're gonna work with something that needs to hold this shape, which most of the fashion bags have to, you know, in the fancy space, then cow and calf works a little better because it's a more strict fiber structure. We can't ten it in a way that will hold itself. Almost never we completely rely on the fashion space to have the leather keep the form. We use the support materials inside, but of course, using cow and calf goes a long way. Calf is absolutely preferred over cow piges because a younger skin has a finer grain structure. As long as the finish is not overly covering it, you can enjoy it more, has a better touch, a lot softer, almost like you touch your skin when you're 15 years old, it feels different. When you're four years old, all it feels different. So calf and cow is kind of for that touch and look feel.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

I I always explain to people that you're buying skin and it's going to change and evolve over time, just like yours, like whether it's the oils, whether it's the exposure, whether it's the light, and always to remember that you are buying as and people cringe, but it is a skin, the end.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Absolutely. It is a skin, it's just turned into a way that's not gonna petrefy forever almost, but it is a skin at the end of the day. And especially what with I always try to preach the minimally finished leathers, that's where we can enjoy the actual characteristics of leather. As long as the finish is not covering what's underneath, we will get to enjoy that natural creation of that skin. So definitely cow height is more for the form than structured silhouettes. And we talked about backpacks. If we're gonna do a backpack, I think my go-to is again cow height because of durability. You know, even if you stuff it, stretch it, uh, it could be like semi-soft, maybe tumbled leathers with some pebbled grains. But I would like to see some waterproofing done in the tannery side because it's gonna be out there, you know, adventurous types may carry this. That would be the my go-to material in leather backpack area.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Perfect. Such good nuggets. People are gonna need to listen to this a hundred times.

Corruption And A Green Card Escape

SPEAKER_01 11:55

So you're in Turkey, and again, I apologize for doing a deep, deep dive on you. So you went from Turkey and then you went to Armenia, which is so cool. How is you in Yerevan, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:08

So yeah, I was in Yerevan for about six months, right before I moved to the states. Prior to that, I was in Turkmenistan running a tannery for about a year, and that's where I got my green card lottery notification. Wild. And how how I ended up there was in 2007, my dad decided to move our tannery to Turkmenistan. So you turn it. Yes, I went with it. At the time, I was in China actually doing some leather buying, sourcing, consulting for some companies in Turkey.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

How did your dad feel about that? Or he was like, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Well, he always let me do whatever I wanted, and he loved that experience. He was learning with me too there. But my plan was to stay in China for a longer time. But as soon as I heard he's moving the tannery, he was gonna need me to run it there. And then I just came back and joined Afghanistan. That was about a year of torture and disaster. We left everything, it was insane corruption. And green card lottery was my ticket out of that hell. And then I went to Yerevan to wait for my green card visa, ran another tannery there for about six months, and then I came here.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

It's funny, I worked in Russia for a couple years, and there is so much opportunity coupled with as soon as you get successful in countries like that, the government always gets involved. And because they always know when somebody starts becoming successful, and then they come in and either inform you they're getting half, demand that they're getting half, or that they're getting the larger portion of it, and that you have no stake or claim to it as a result of not being a native to the country. So it's tricky, you know. And the funny thing is that you, as a manufacturer, were only trying to do good by the country to get more exports for them.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Exactly. That was my experience in Turkmenistan. So it's kind of tricky. We went there because we were thinking the leather is there, there's not enough tenaries in the country, like an untapped market. Exactly. We can process the leather, we can export it out of this country, definitely bringing revenue here. But of course, we're not gonna do it for free. We our goal is to make money too because it's a cheaper country. You know, we have our interest as well. But the point we miss is that the things we don't see in the first glance, that corruption and you know, illegal things getting involved as soon as you start your operation there. Yep. And that's what happened. You know, every day a different part of government was showing up for another bribe. And for about a year we tried to work, but they didn't let us, and we just left everything and get out of there.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Everything. It's like you built this whole thing and you're like hopping on a plane one day back to Derby. Like, okay, well, that was interesting, and that was it.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

That's it, that's what happened.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

So then you went to Armenia. Were you like, hey, Baba, I'm going to Armenia, like, see you in a bit. I'm gonna figure like wait some time out until I go to the US.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

No, this was actually basically end of the year in Turkmenistan. We realized this is not happening, and we met an Armenian person, a tradesperson in Turkmenistan. He was doing a lot of deals with government and you know in the region, and he happened to know a businessman in Armenia who owned a tenary but couldn't run it for so long. He was looking for a partnership to run it together. That's how we ended up transitioning to Armenia in that context.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Did your dad go with you?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah, yeah, we were we were together. Like even my whole family, like my even my mom was there for a while with us. Yeah. My brother.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

That's it. Like you guys were leather nomads.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Can I ask you just as a functional question, having you know, as an American, we are not historically known for having linguistic strength. I happened to be lucky enough to study a bunch of languages growing up. What did you speak in all these countries?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Well, I don't speak Russian. I kind of got used to a little bit in my Turkmenistan and Armenia experience, you know, just a few words in Russian. But none of us, my dad, my brother, spoke Russian at the moment. My brother was the most advanced, all of us. He studied in Uzbekistan for about a year, and he was able to communicate at a basic level when we were there. Right now, he's fully fluent. His wife is Russian, so he's completely running his life in Russian now. But at the time, we didn't speak Russian in Turkmenistan, it wasn't too difficult. Their language, Turkmen language, is very close to Turkish. 70, 80 percent, same base, they understand us, so it wasn't difficult. That's how we got by an Armenia. We just had some translators going around with us.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

So no English.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

No, yeah, the English is not that common there. They yeah, it doesn't help much.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Wow, that's so fascinating because as an American, you know, one would assume Turkey, Turkmenistan, that there would be some sort of connection. I mean, obviously, historically there is, but you never know, right? So, like, what is it? Norwegian, I think, is the only language that has no historical connection to anything. It's one of those Scandinavian countries. Oh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

I didn't know that. But Turkish has that connections. Actually, I heard this. You could start traveling east from Turkey and you can reach to China while just speaking Turkish, because all the countries you're gonna pass if you're on the right path, will speak a form of Turkish.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

That's wild. So look at you. So you're covered if you keep going east, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah, but I learned my lesson. I think I'm not gonna continue there so far.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Oh my god.

New Jersey To Chicago Survival Jobs

SPEAKER_01 17:35

So, all right, you're in Armenia, green card comes through, then you just end up in Chicago. Yeah?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, I was in New Jersey briefly, first like six months.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Um that makes sense. One should always start in New Jersey. Like you.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

I've been there for a couple summers for a summer program in my college before we call it work and travel. And from that time, I knew an Italian family, like crazy smart businessman, one of the smartest businessmen I've ever seen. I learned a lot from him. So I came to New Jersey, started working with him, uh, working for him. He was doing textile business. It was quite boring for six months for me in the summer town of Jersey, and I was looking for a little bit more friends and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

And I mean a suburb of New Jersey. Here you've traveled the world through all this chaos, and now you're like in the suburb with the backyard. Yeah, why didn't you dry in for a coffee? Because they didn't have good coffee there either, I'm sure. So, well, they were Italian, so they should have, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, well, I mean, everything was fine. The social life was a little lacking, and that's why I ended up in Chicago, which I loved, and I was there for nine years.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Why not in New York City if you're so close?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

I was going back and forth almost every day. My Jersey work was intense. I was waking up at 4 a.m. every day and coming back home about midnight. So like four hours sleep, six months. I was driving a huge truck delivering textiles to New York, Philadelphia, and back to New Jersey every day. So that was insane.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Uh I didn't enjoy New York with that kind of schedule, so I didn't want to.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

That's it. Oh my god. Yeah. Ah, so it must have been Central Jersey if that was the case. If you had that kind of South Jersey, South Jersey.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

So fun.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Oh god, that breaks my heart. I know that drive, it's not a fun one.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

No, you go past the Meadowlands and you're like, oh, I still have so much longer to go.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, exactly. The New Jersey artists parkway ends where I get home, that kind of thing. Like it's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Yeah, that's a hard pass. I would have gone to Chicago too, because that's like city light. So you got your NBA in Chicago. Did you go there and then imply?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Or you were like, I was a cab driver for three and a half years in Chicago, like full-time cab driver. From my friend's suggestions, I started that and trying to establish a new life here. I don't know what I'm gonna do. Leather is not a huge thing in the US, especially tanneries. So cab driving, paid the bills three and a half years. I met a lot of consultants with the cab business. And first time I'm hearing about consulting, I'm asking now what do you guys do? They say we basically solve business problems. Like that sounds interesting. How can I become a consultant? Probably the easiest way is to get an MBA. That's how I started to thinker and switched to MBA after the cab driver thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Wow. So were you still driving a cab and getting your MBA?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

No, I did a full-time MBA in University of Linnae-Champaign, um, in France Champaign. So I moved to Champaign full-time, two years MBA program, and then I got a consulting job, came back to Chicago.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Where you tell people what to do.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yes, exactly. But that was my first corporate job. Did it kill you? It did. It only lasted a year. Like, I'm like, no, I'm not, I'm not made for this. Yeah, I was actually tired of not having anything to do. I'm trying to look like I'm working, I'm doing something. I was just smoking mirrors. I was started to question like, why are they paying me so much money? You know, I'm not creating value. I just felt super uncomfortable, and I ended up quitting without knowing what I'm gonna do next.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

So wow.

Building Pegai From Etsy Orders

SPEAKER_01 21:05

So in 2016, you started Pagai. So how did that happen? Like, were you still day jobbing at that point?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

No, so I quit the consulting. I went back to Uber driving because you know, I'm familiar with the CAP concept in Chicago. I'm making a living for the first month or two, and I'm thinking, how can I go back to Leather? Because I missed it at this point. It's been about almost eight years now. I'm far from Leather. And I realized this Etsy thing. People are, you know, doing wallets and selling it. I'm like, oh, this sounds like a profitable thing, but I don't know how to design a wallet. I don't know how to make a wallet. So I got into YouTube, you know, the Uber driving, waiting at the airports, YouTubing, how to design wallet, learning how to use the illustrator and how to do saddle stitching at home.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

So that's listen, I'm buying the rights to your life because this is gonna make a movie and I'm I'm here. For it, I called it first. That is amazing. If you ever wanted to start a handbag line and didn't know where to start, this is for you. Living proof that independent designers can make it fit. Emily Blumenthal is a lifetime example. If you had dreams of becoming a handbag designer and didn't know where to start, this is for you. If you have a handbag brand and are in need of strategy and direction, this is for you. I'm Emily Blumenthal, handbag fairy godmother and handbag designer expert, and this is Handbike Designer 101, the Masterclass. Over the next 10 classes, I will break down everything you need to know how to make, market, and manufacture a handbag. Broken down for you that you'll not only skip steps in that handbag building process, but also save money in that learning curve. For the past 20 years, I've been teaching at the top fashion universities in New York City, created the handbag awards, and also the handbag designer 101 podcast. I'm going to show you like I have countless brands from sketch to sample to shelf. Whether you're just starting out and don't know where to begin, or even if you have a handbag line and just need some strategic direction, the handbag designer 101 Masterclass is just for you. So let's get started, and you will be the creator of the next it bag. Joining me, Emily Blumethal, with the Handbag Designer 101 Masterclass. You know, and I gotta say, coming from where you came from as a true immigrant, right? There's no shame in doing anything that helps you make money. It is what everything's a means to an end. Like there's nothing, you know, like you needed money. You had this amazing MBA, you've traveled the globe. The now what? But the fact that you were like, I can still do both and have something basically pay me while I figure it out is pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Right. And you know, being an immigrant, probably it's easier for us to realize this. America is a great place to have all these opportunities for you. As long as you want to make it happen, yeah, there is limitless things you can work on, learn, and turn it into a profession and make a great living out of. So I was fortunate enough to be here to do all this stuff. You know, you can't do this in Turkey, you can't do this in nowhere else, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

No, I mean, I totally, totally agree with you. I worked in Moscow and then I worked in London and even working in London to see the differences, like, you know, one who doesn't know any better. But coming from a country that is a uniform government and how it's run historically, like no one's changing anything there. They really aren't. But America was founded on privatization. So with that, it kind of messes with the system, right? Because we really have a system that isn't a system, but with that kind of space, it allows you to do whatever you want. It's there for the taking.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Exactly, exactly. So that's not only me, that's the environment making it possible. So that's definitely a great advantage.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

So here you are, you figured out how to make wallets. Was that kind of like it must have been hilarious to you? Like, hey, I know how to make the leather, but I don't know how to make any product with it.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

It's frustrating. So you're leather. Oh my god, these wallets look simple. We're talking Etsy wallets, right? Like it's layers of leather put together and it's simple. But if you don't know, you don't know. I have to go in and then learning how to draw things with Illustrator, then print it out, cut it.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Did you have to teach yourself Illustrator?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yes, yes. Like everything is basically from YouTube. I I'm watching people who are sharing their knowledge, which I appreciate. And soon I tried a few different different designs. I'm like, they don't look that good. You know, they don't look as good as the ones on Etsy, but I improved. I made like 10, 15, 20 different. And I'm still thinking nobody would buy this, but hey, I'm gonna put it on. You know, I'm I don't care. I put it on Etsy and I got an order, and then I got another one the next day. I got two the other day, I got three the next day. I'm like, hold on, this is interesting. Now we're talking with my brother, he's not doing anything either in Turkey. Now our factory building is abandoned, you know, completely in trash condition since we moved. I said, why don't you guys make this? And I focus on design and selling and marketing, and that's how we started.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

So can I ask you though, were you able to figure out correct pricing? Because the shipping alone, you know, it's tricky, right? Like, you know how to cost out the materials, but to cost out the labor, the time value that it takes to put into the product and then have it ship it over. Was that something that you had to learn? Like, did you have any hiccups on that? Because I'm sure in itself, it's like, wait, I undercharged, wait, I overcharged, wait, the shipping. I didn't even think about the shipping cost.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

So initially it was yeah, everything is new. Like, I have no idea how to send a product from Turkey to your how much it's gonna cost, the customs, tax, the procedures. I have no clue.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

But or things getting lost if you think, like, let me save some money and ship it with a national mail service, and it never shows up.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Exactly. It never showed up. We lost most hope, and then two months later it showed showed up. Like, oh okay, here it is. But regardless, we start using DHL, the most reliable so far in my experience. And I was like, Oh, it's not that difficult. And because I did my pricing when I was making my wallets in my apartment in Chicago with saddle stitching, you know, my pricing was not cheap because it took so much time for me to make anything, you know, hand cutting and sewing. Right now, once we turn into producing in Turkey, my pricing, I was able to actually take it down a notch because I'm still profitable covering all the making and shipping of it using the best leather I could get my hands on. And the pricing worked out basically. Probably fully handmade beginning, gave me a good pricing structure understanding, and then I was able to take my prices a little bit down because I found, I mean, more affordable ways to make the same product, better product, actually.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

So, did you put it on your brother at some point to say, okay, find someone who could make this stuff for us because I can't keep making it?

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Well, yeah, that's why we got a sewing machine that we don't even know how to use a sewing machine, you know, we couldn't control it. It goes so fast. I was turning it with my hand in Turkey first trip, and then he's holding the thing. And we ended up hiring a person who knows how to use a sewing machine, right? And my dad, him, and the the sewing guy they started making these and ship shipping it to me. Me and my wife is doing the personalization, packaging, shipping from our Chicago apartment at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

That's how we did we have a say in this, or you were like, Hey, by the way, I need you to get involved.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

No, she supported me from every beginning of every adventure. We're very close. I'm very fortunate to be, you know, be with my wife 24 hours. We're still like that. She works from home, she's a consultant, but she As a consultant, yes, and she's coming to my workshop every morning with me, helps with anything she can when she has free time. And we come back home, we play with our kids. Um we're 24 hours literally together every day, and we love it. Like we couldn't change it. Like, that's how thank god, huh? Yeah, yeah, exactly. It doesn't work for a lot of couples, I know.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

So oh my god, no, that's a tricky dance in itself. So, how did you end up in Texas?

Naming The Brand And Moving To Texas

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And how did you end up with Pagai? Like, when did you say, okay, we're gonna call it Pagai? And by the way, we're moving to Texas.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

So that's interesting. The original brand was gonna be Leatherstein, and I had a little hiccup when I was opening my Etsy store. I couldn't get that name, and I had to think of something else. Pagai is my hometown in Turkey. Its ancient Greek name was Pegae. Right now it's called Biga. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna take that. And I found the domain was available for a premium purchase. I bought it because it was short, sweet, and it had a meaning for me. That that's how it started. And within the first year or two, we had to get a small workshop in Chicago. You know, the orders were coming in, we had an employee and all that stuff. And in Turkey, we had a team of maybe 10 artisans working with us. Wow. Yeah, it grew pretty quickly. And I think it was 2019. I was absolutely done with the cold weather in Chicago. For the past 12 months, we were just looking for why we can move a warmer climate, you know, somewhere that makes sense because I can move my business, it's flexible. Right, right, right. Uh, we checked a bunch of places: California, Florida, Washington, Houston, Seattle, all that stuff. And we came to Dallas and we were like, okay, that's it. And we were almost about to have our first kid. And I wanted to have it in a bigger space, you know, not in an apartment in Chicago. So we made a quick decision to move to Dallas in 2009, uh, summer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Wow, that's crazy. So you named the brand Pagai, you're making money, you're employing people in Turkey, you're employing people domestically. You and your wife are home, baby, making wallets, small other goods, or slugs, as some of them call.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Had you moved to regular bags at that point, or just no, not the handbags in the fashion sense. We were doing more, like this is more of an Etsy Amazon business at this stage, still. Right. We have our own website, but most of the things, designs are basic. There's no inner supports and things like that. The bag you can find on Etsy. And the code happened and all that stuff. You know, we had to close, run everything in our garage here for a while.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

But that's not anything you weren't already familiar with. It was like a hiccup, and you've been there done that.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Oh, right away. We figured it out. Like that was actually, you know, worked out just fine. We actually see an increase in the orders, probably people were shopping more because they were home and all that stuff. It was really busy with three-month-old baby in hand, but well, we handled it. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

You need more than just a baby to do, let me tell you. So this takes us to your TikTok awakening, I guess we could call it.

TikTok Clarity And Viral Leather Reviews

SPEAKER_01 32:13

What was that moment?

SPEAKER_00 32:14

So, this was actually a personal realization happened in 2020. We took a trip to Maui, Hawaii, with my son and you know, my wife. I don't know what happened there, but on the way back, I had to write this down. It came to me so clearly in my mind in the airplane. I had to open my notes app and I have to write it down.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

I'm like, Do you know something that when you're flying, your mind is much more stimulated? They say for anybody who's working or has a creative mind, never sleep on a plane because your best ideas will always come when you're flying. FYM.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Really? First time I heard this, but that's the experience. I experienced it. I put it down on a paper. I realized I'm here to help people understand leather because putting all the dust together in my life, whoever knows my involvement with leather, they've been asking me, hey, I got this leather jacket, I got this shoe, belt, bag, whatever you name it. Can you look? Is it good? Did I pay too much? You know, is it real? Is it fake? Right. At that moment, I'm like, people love leather, everybody wants to use it, but they don't really know enough to be comfortable with making their own decisions. Sometimes they feel like they're cheated. So I'm here to help them understand this material a little bit better, and I can use social media. So that was kind of the clarity of purpose came to me. Up until that point, I was dabbling in everything. You know, I was buying a CNC machine trying to learn different things. Like I'm a handy person, I love doing woodwork. Like I have tools and things trying to explore so many things. But after that clarity, I'm not looking at anything else, it's only leather for me. That was like I realized why I was here, and that's how that video thing started. I've been experimenting with different ways to convey leather information to people in different videos since then. But the first viral video happened last year, last August, when I was talking about Chanel and their wallet, and you know, it exploded. And people started asking, can you review this? Can you do that? And I've been just following it.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

That's

Prestige Pricing Versus Material Reality

SPEAKER_01 34:15

crazy. Now, I am, as I affectionately have referred to myself as Garmento offspring. So my father was a converter in the Garmin Center, Garmin District. So he would buy gray goods, you know, the big drums, the big rolls, as I'm sure you're familiar. Yeah. And then send them to factories and mills to get died. And then he would then resell them. He was the middleman. Now, as everybody or you know, the middleman at this point, other than in Europe, there really are no more converters because people go straight to factories that step has been wiped out. Thank God that's the case because he used to travel only in the US where there was domestic production. Like I remember someone had paid him in cowboy boots once, a factory. So understanding, you know, we were never allowed to have labels growing up because we were always taught the cost of goods. Like, oh, you know, the markup on this is insane. No, you don't need the real guest genes. No, you don't need the real this. Like, we would get the closeouts, the seconds, even in some cases, the knockoffs, like, you know, one leg was longer than the other or whatever. Like, ah, my mom's like, I can fix that. So, this whole essence of understanding and always looking at a product made by independence has really impacted me by looking at named brands because I have friends who, much like you know, who didn't grow up the way theoretically we did, and don't look at these high-end products and saying, like, the markup on this is insane. I know how much this is a yard. Like, I'm not spending a 2,000 markup just because they smack a logo on it. And that's what drew me to you because I'm like, he gets it, he gets it. But you know, that's obviously not going to change. We are a consumer public, that's who we are as as a people, as a culture, especially, you know, anybody once you have uh an element of means, the whole point of it is letting other people know.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

So the fact that you're decrypting it is like, oh, you're the beacon.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

So I think that's why clicked with people, because so many of us kind of knows that's not worth it from a material standpoint, right? Like they know how much it can cost, right? Probably not exactly, but they have a clue it's not gonna be three thousand dollars for that much leather. But some people are still questioning because leather is a tricky material, it has been associated with luxury thousands of years, you know. All the kings and warriors wore it because it was rare, expensive. Nowadays it's not the case, it's really not that expensive, but big brands really still play on that historical luxury essence of leather to create that mystical you know quality. So we're this is three thousand dollars, probably it's awesome, leather, incredible. That's what I wanted to tell people. It's not really about leather. These I have huge respect for these brands. What they created are amazing, it's super difficult. Yeah, but they are not in the leather business, they are in the prestige business, they're in the branding business. Exactly. They engineer a luxury onto a leather bag because it's a great medium to carry the luxury on it. Correct. And it is super hard to engineer that luxury, by the way. I'm not, you know, 100% overlooking that. 100% I can't do that, probably nobody else can do that. There's only 10-20 brands who have done it successfully, and that's it. You know, that's the price you have to pay if you want to buy that, and there is a huge demand for it, too. People who buy that stuff there, they know they're buying status, they know they're not buying just a bag. Right. Some of them may be trying to justify a little too much, you know, it's super high quality, you know, it's great design, but it's all biased because you're paying so much money and you're trying to convince yourself it's great. I'm not saying they're bad, most of them are really well made and you know good, but they're not exceptional.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Well, it's kind of like buying a regular house in a good neighborhood. That's essentially what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Exactly. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

So were there any surprises from everything that you've done from this deconstructing that you were like, I didn't even know this about these certain brands? Or were there any things that you were like, oh my god, who knew?

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Absolutely. No, I'm making a video actually. I'm working on it this week. It's like after spending this much money, what did I learn from all these dissections?

What Luxury Dissections Taught Him

SPEAKER_00 38:28

So I'm gonna make a YouTube video. And a few of these things, like it changed my perspective. If you look at my first videos, if you talked to me last year, I'll be a little bit more judging against these brands. I'll be like, it's absolutely not worth it, you know. Because I have my own perspective, right? And I'm a little too strong, maybe borderline judging people who are buying this stuff. That's fair. Or now, after looking at all these brands, I see the value. I confirmed it for myself. It's not about the material quality or craftsmanship, you know, it cannot be. But I started to see who buys this and why they buy it and how difficult it is to create something like that. My respect to their customers, my respect to the brands grow immensely. I definitely understand both sides, even though I'm still keeping my own perspective on things. I'm not a buyer of those brands, but I definitely understand it a lot more. And another learning is most of the luxury brands are really just nothing that special, with the exception of a few. You know, Hermes, I have huge respect for their leather selections and you know, a little bit extra craftsmanship practices, the saddle stitching and all that stuff. Well, tell you off.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

I mean, if you go back to Hermes's history of being the first, I think they were the ones who came up with the first true travel bag that God, I'm gonna get my history next up. So if anybody hears this, I I apologize. But the founder of Hermes, I believe he went to like the Ford factory in Detroit and learned that the possibility of from seeing the cars and the seats then gave him the idea that he could use those bags, use the leathers in a different way, that it could be used in a more travel sturdy way. And his wife was the one that requested it.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Really? I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

This is a great piece of I have this giant, giant dossier. I had this giant, giant, and then there was some sort of conflict. I have to go back and look at which silhouette this is, and this is gonna kill me because there's a name. But then there's two different brands that fought over who was the creator of this. And I'll I'll let you know. But I have this giant dossier of the history of the handbag that I always like to defer to for moments like this. That there's a reason why certain brands are better at it because historically they've been doing it and have had a means to perfect it. And those people within their factories or their ateliers have been doing it for hundreds of years because then their child comes through, as just like you.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Right, right. Uh, definitely there is this generational knowledge transfer, it's it's incredibly important in leathercraft. So definitely Armaz deserves a huge respect from a material craftsmanship standpoint out of all those luxury brands. Bottega with their unique designs and you know difficult silhouettes, I have huge respect. Their leather selections were usually good. But one caveat there is like you can't trust one of these brands at all times for everything they say because one of the wallets I got from Bottega, I was using it without doubting. They said it's calf skin, I was enjoying it up until I cut it up and removed the finish. I realized it was a split covered with a PU top, which most people call genuine leather these days. You know, it's a stretch of imagination to call it a calf skin. I was shocked, you know. More normally they are using exceptional leathers. Why did you do this here? Like it's not worth it. This is a $600 wallet. Yeah, just use the calf skin. So those are the like interesting learnings I had with this adventure, and I enjoy it every minute.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

That's so funny. Can I ask you something? Just selfishly, I want to know what kind of bag does your wife carry?

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Oh my well, my poor wife now curious. Whatever design I made and it's going really fast these days, use back. Yeah, like prototype. No, actually, prototype feedback.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

It's she's taking it for a test drive, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Exactly. Test drive, she's a test drive. Like, and because so much of it coming out fast these days, she only has like a week to carry one. And I'm like, oh, here's another one. And some of the bags I buy for dissection, she carries those too, and to give me a little bit of feedback for the user standpoint. So it changes a lot, like it changes a lot. But the bags she really loves that I got for her was botanga bags so far.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

And there we go. Well, I won't call you Vulkan. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

No, it's fine. Volcanter, it's it's the same.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

So, Tanner Letterstein, thank you so very much. I hope you enjoyed this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Oh, I enjoyed it immensely. Thank you so much. It's fun to remember the memory stone.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

It's uh listen, the roots, I I'm not kidding. I'm gonna like though, when there's a movie made about you, I'm gonna be behind it one way or another because I love a good handbag adventure, and this is this is definitely one of

Where To Follow And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_01 43:03

them. So, how can people follow you, learn more, and get all this good stuff?

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Absolutely. We keep doing short videos on TikTok and Instagram, and handle is at tenor.leatherstein on both platforms, and on YouTube, same handle at tenor.letherstein, we do short and longer videos with a little bit more entertainment and information. That's where I do the informative content. And my own brand, Pegae, is at Pegai.com. Everything we create is gonna be available there. They can sign up for the newsletter for every week. New designs coming up these days. Yes, newsletter. Yeah, I was actually checking the domain name if it was available. Like it's it's it would be a cool trademark. Newsletter.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

It would, it would. Well, listen, I think the people at the USPTO.gov are sick of me and they have my voice with a line through it because I call them so much to ask questions. I'm like, hey. So what do you think about this? And they're like, we are not here to field your conversational requests about what you think you should do with the business or a brand. I'm like, yeah, but we're already on the phone. Like, let's talk a little bit. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much. This has been an absolute pleasure. Looking forward to see what you do next. And we will absolutely be keeping in touch.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Yes, we will be in touch. It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to rate and review and follow us on every single platform at handbag designer. Thanks so much. See you next time.