Leading From the Dark: Shadow Work, Awakening, and Becoming More Human

In this episode of Awakening Now, Ilona Ciunaite is joined by Steven D’Souza — author, leadership guide, and creator of Leading From the Dark — for a deep conversation about shadow work, awakening, and becoming more human.

Steven describes the shadow as “the me I don’t see,” and together we explore how it shows up through projection, strong emotional reactions, and repeating patterns that feel disproportionate to the moment. We look at how shadow material often reveals itself first in the body — as tightening, guarding, contraction, or emotional charge — and how these signals can become doorways to integration rather than problems to fix.

The conversation moves through Steven’s own spiritual journey, from a traditional Catholic upbringing and time exploring the priesthood, to decades of work with leaders and organizations around the world. He shares how he approaches shadow work through multiple lenses — psychological, biological, systemic, and spiritual — and why the “dark” can be a place of transformation, like a seed in the earth or a baby in the womb.

This episode is for seekers who have seen clarity and still meet contraction, for leaders interested in depth and maturity, and for anyone sensing that wholeness includes the parts that were once denied or exiled. The invitation throughout is simple: meet what arises with curiosity, safety, and compassion. Steven’s final word for the path is love.

Steven’s website is:

Leading From the Dark
👉 https://leadingfromthedark.com

That’s where he shares his work on shadow, leadership, and negative capability, and where people can sign up for his newsletter or learn about talks and retreats.

Music by Valdi Sabev
 Visit his channel for more calm and relaxed music
 https://www.youtube.com/c/ValdiSabev/featured

Transcript

Awakening is a shift in perception — a clear seeing of what you are and what you’ve mistaken yourself for.
 It reveals what was here all along.

You’re listening to Awakening Now, a podcast for those on the path of self-discovery and spiritual awakening.

This is episode 120:
 Leading From the Dark: Shadow Work, Awakening, and Becoming More Human — with Steven D’Souza.

My name is Ilona Ciunaite.
 I’m a guide, an author, and co-creator of the Liberation Unleashed community.

For over fourteen years, I’ve been supporting people through awakening — and through what unfolds after the first insight.
 If you are in the process of awakening, this space is for you.

Podcast description (short, clear, SEO-ready)
 In this episode, I’m joined by Steven D’Souza — author, leadership guide, and creator of Leading From the Dark. We speak about shadow work in a grounded way, and why awakening deepens through becoming more human, not through escaping what feels uncomfortable.

Steven describes the shadow as “the me I don’t see,” and we explore how it shows up through projection, strong reactions, and repeating patterns that feel disproportionate to the moment. We talk about how the body often carries the signal first — tightening, guarding, clenching, a sense of threat — and how meeting those reactions with curiosity can reveal what has been hidden.

Steven shares parts of his own journey, from a traditional Catholic path and time exploring the priesthood, to decades of work with leaders across organizations and cultures. He also explains how he approaches shadow through multiple lenses — psychological, biological, systemic, and spiritual — and why the “dark” can be a place of transformation, like a seed in the earth or a baby in the womb.

This conversation is for anyone who has seen clarity and still meets contraction, for those drawn to wholeness, and for those who want a practical way to meet what has been exiled. Steven’s final word for the path is simple: love.

Very warm welcome Steven D'Souza I'm so happy to have a conversation with you today. Likewise. It's been a long time. Really great to connect with you again. Oh yes. And today I'm speaking to an author guide, somebody who works in a transformation sphere with the leaders especially I'm not and Stephen wrote a few books and the last one is about the shadow. So I thought this is such a great opportunity to connect again because we spoke many years ago and yeah and explore this because I think this is something that makes a huge difference in any human's life doesn't matter seeker or not seeker um it's a huge difference when you can um integrate or look at or work with the shadow material Well, there's something that we don't want to see, but it's there. So, great honor to have you here. And to start with, I ask this question of every guest and I'm going to ask it of you. What is your definition of awakening? Let's hear now.

I I relate it and learn it to my definition of spirituality and that is I grow in my spirituality by growing in my humanity. So my definition of awakening is a process of becoming more human and uh and so let's keep it simple. That's my definition of awakening. Oh, thank you so much. Yes, I I agree with that. Becoming more human, just more comfortable in being what you are in yourself.

And do you want to share a little bit of your awakening journey or something like a pivotal moment when something happened and you suddenly realize something that you never saw before? Yeah, I think in my work with you, Elona, like we've done work together with Liberation Unleashed, which was um critical for me cuz it was almost not looking outwards and uh needing, you know, models or techniques or books or but uh just allowing a new way of seeing and a new way of uh receiving and uh perceiving the world. But uh to give a bit more context for for listeners and viewers, I literally started my spiritual journey very traditionally uh growing up in a Catholic household in my parents were from Goa uh in India and I grew up in the UK and so it was very much look a process of daily prayer, devotion and at 18 I decided not to go to university. So I took two years and I explored a vocation to the priesthood. And this was my attempt to not let spirituality be a sidekick or a project of the gaps but to give myself holy uh to what I considered the divine or god and uh to do that through service of people. So I joined Irish province of a French order dedicated to serving the poor because if God is found anywhere uh he's found in the poor, he's found in the margins. He's found in the weak, in the impoverished, at least in the tradition I come from, not in the wealthy, not in the rich, not not in the comfortable. and oh he has a special eye for for the poor or an option for the poor is what we would say in Vincenion language of St. Vincent to Paul the order I was a part of but so I followed that very conventional path and it was I would say it was very um enlivening and maturing so you know I had two spiritual directors uh I woke up in the morning and did like silent prayer and then the brievery and then morning office and there was a routine there was like physical work I ran youth retreats and I worked one year in an Alzheimer's disease unit and the second and I lived in community so it wasn't just a solid istic uh experience of faith. It was living with five other young people. uh meeting in the evening uh sharing bread, breaking bread together and uh discovering what does it mean to live in community and then you know having different types of workshops like what does it mean to pray not just with the words but let's say with material with uh materiality like clay and express spirituality through that and so I I ran youth retreats helping people explore their relationship to self others god and The second year I worked in East End of Glasgow in a primary school in a mental hospital, prison, death center and at this time I was questioning a narrow definition of spirituality with I grew up in and I was reading things like anti Krishna and there was one book called by Sheldon Cop an existential psychotherapist who wrote if you meet Buddha on the road kill him and the title fascinated me and it almost like an existential laundry list but it it got me almost uh disrupted me similar to maybe the Jeff McKenna books that I know you've read and uh I also love I came much later to those but that took me out of the you know the narrow concept of God I had and I couldn't continue with good faith that path so I left university and I ended up in a corporate corporate world in different as you said leadership roles working with leaders across organiz organizations which I've done for the last three decades uh in different parts of the world. Um but I don't see that as separate than you know the work I did in the youth ministry cuz I see it as still you know it's less what I do but it's almost like or the context I do it in might have changed but the the ability to uh take my spirituality and try to make a bridge to expression in the world of work that's the kind of work that I'm know trying to claim and trying to unveil. and understand more deeply as as the days go by. So initially it was um moving away from the transpersonal meaning they're overtly spiritual you know I did psychosynthesis psychotherapy which is a transpersonal model of psychotherapy instead I adopted gishalt which is a more uh let's say it focuses on relational so it's more interpersonal and more grounded and then the and I needed both in my life you know I had done the transpersonal I needed to find god in the in the material in the interpersonal and so that's the journey only in in a short uh um summary but there's a a lot more but that's the short summary and right now I' you know I'm in the Middle East I lived in Saudi Arabia and I've literally launched a new project uh called leading from the dark which we can speak about related to the shadows uh but that's the the next attempt to almost claim my spirituality more fully and embody it more fully in my working life and professional life and not bifocate not separate the personal and the professional as much as maybe that I might have done in in the past. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for this introduction.

I think nowadays what is seeking I'm you know the spiritual seeking the idea or ideal is that once I'm awakened then there won't be any heavy dark difficult emotions coming or there won't be uncomfortable feelings and situations and then that that's kind of trying to escape the inevitable but that's that's where the mind is leading that's what it's imagining that there's such a place like happy ever and everything is rosy and you know paradise

it's so true but but that the power comes in when we turn to the darkness to the uncomfortable whether it's sensations energy emotions stories beliefs whatever is going on here and this is where like you say becoming more human starts opening ing up as we are diving into the parts that have been denied, neglected, ignored, and completely avoided. So, I'm really interested to hear your point of view on that and how did you come to the recognition or realization that you have to dive in into the shadow? I'm curious. So, thank you, Luna. The shadow. I've recently wrote a book, as you say, called Shadows at Work and it came off the back of a trilogy I wrote called Not Knowing, Not Doing, and Not Being, where the attempt was to look at what was hidden. And let's think of the shadow as what's hidden. So for and what's not privileged in in our modern world. So for example, we tend to privilege knowledge rather than let's say curiosity or um you know that sense of wonder. We tend to privilege action, you know, almost like forensic action and uh quick fix is doing something rather than pausing or stillness or waiting. And we tend to focus on being somebody, you know, climbing the ladder, achievements and endless becoming rather than being and recognizing the interbeing and the broader sense of self which is not our narrow separate self. And those books were an attempt to to bring them into the world of leadership without using any esoteric language and just trying to land it in examples in the world of work. And then I after that trilogy, it it appeared to me that there was still an overemphasis on positive psychology and on um almost like positivist goals and uh let's become the best and there was less attention in in at least in the world of work on on looking at what is it that we're we're not facing and understanding understanding that more deeply. So I connected it to the trilogy before and so I started exploring you know what is this dark side and I didn't know much about it. I had a lot of uh ignorance around it and uh for me you know I saw most of the the kind of material was about the inner child and Carl Jung and I'll talk about for those listeners not familiar you know the concept of the shadow is like an archetype or like a a metaphor and was really given prominence by the Swiss psychologist Kyung who almost described it as repository of all that is repressed or hidden or denied in in individuals not just individually but collectively too and uh a simple way to understand it is the me that I don't see so we're not conscious of the shadow and normally it forms in early childhood or development stages so for example we may have been told as a child uh it's not good to be selfish please share your toys and told off felt a sense of shame And then you know after as adults we may discover that we dis find it hard to let's say hold our boundaries. We overshare. We don't protect our own time because something is in our shadow that says it wasn't you know good wasn't safe to actually claim something for ourselves and uh we made it wrong in some way. And the shadow operates whether we're conscious of it or not. And often much of our behavior isn't two adults in a room. It's like a three-year-old child or a six-year-old child meeting another six-year-old child. So I became curious about what is this me that I don't see? And collectively, what's the we that we don't see in our culture, in our society, in our families, in our teams, in our organizations. And importantly for me alone, I didn't want it to be seen as just an exercise in the psychology of an individual. I wanted to look at it through multiple lenses. So in the book I explore the shadow. Yes, through the lens of psychology, which is important, projection, defenses, derailers, but also through the lens of biology. you know, how does our biology, our physiology, our genetics, our DNA, you know, our epigen impact on our behavior? When we're tired, we tend to behave very differently than when we're not tired and exposes shadow. We tend to have toxic or shadow behavior that we're not conscious of, but we act out under stress, under pressure. Then a systemic lens, you know, what does the shadow mean in systems, in cultures? And the last one was the spiritual lens. How do we understand shadow in terms of meaning? So I explore an idea of the shadow life or the shadow career that often you come to midlife for example and we discover that we might feel a sense of regret, a sense of uh yeah listlessness, dissatisfaction because we made choices early in our life based on things that were not satisfying to us. Now in midlife maybe it was for security or prestige but now we're finding you know there's deeper questions of meaning. So how do we understand our choices? How do we understand our life now? So that's the territory um that I've tried to explore and just to finish then with um why I thought that was important. It's important as individuals because you know the famous young quote or ascribed to him I couldn't find it in any of the text but until you make the conscious unconscious conscious we call it fate and it will run our lives and many of us are you know at the mercy almost of our shadow in terms of sabotage in terms of behaviors that we don't want but we keep on repeating and uh in terms of persistent things so individually I I think is important collectively. I think it's important as well. So lots of people recently have been describing the period of society we're living in as almost a dark age and over the decades we were progressing towards cooperation, globalization, etc. And and but now it seems to be climate progress, but now it seems to be we're moving backwards. You know, we're becoming more politically polarized. There's less multilateralism and cooperation. there's more protectionism and more anxiety. So, we're living in what's the metaphor of the dark and my premise is that we don't need to run from the dark. Now, the dark uh can be a place and a source of transformation. So, we can lead from the dark. So, the metaphor I use is of darkness as let's imagine the seed in the earth, the baby in the womb. When you think nothing is happening in that still hidden place, uh transformation is happening. And uh when we when we are not afraid of the dark and when we're able to see what is the the what's the gift that it gives us, you know, it turns us inward, allows us to look, allows us to hear, less sensory stimulation, and it lays something new to be born, something new to be made possible. So I just didn't want to privilege the dark, but I didn't want to disappear it. So to hold both. And I think that's part of the the fullness of living and life as well. So hope that is a a way into our conversation, right?

somebody who's doing self inquiry and getting to know themselves or the patterns that's happening. How would you say this work is showing up in a practical way like you know okay I want to work with my shadow what do I do go and chat GPT help me work on my shadow buy a book but truly you know what do you do how do you what what's your yes how do I yeah there's there's different ways I think the one of the most common ways is to work with uh projections and to work normally you know the shadow you don't need to go looking for it. It comes to you. So whenever you feel disturbed, angry, upset uh by another it's an opportunity to look at you know is something happening beyond the surface in terms of my reaction. So normally alone it happens when you find yourself acting almost disproportionate to the situation. you notice this person really irritates you or this person you feel is this and there's a big judgment and other people don't feel the same you know so there's a a sense then something else is happening below the surface that may be operating so to give you an example I remember a couple of years ago I was in another country a new member has joined the team and my manager said to this member I'm really glad you're here Dave and inside me even though he was saying I'm really glad you're here to another colleague. I felt hurt and I felt a sense of a pang of uh jealousy and I thought what's going on here and um I noticed that you know what that was disproportionate to the situation. It wasn't uh something normally you know you would expect to feel I would expect to feel and what was going on for me and again shadow work happens with noticing something in you that's triggering you that's the first thing and the second thing is reflecting what could be causing that emotion what are the consequences of that and one of the consequences of of this I've seen in my life this sense of jealousy or this sense of hurt is I've tended not in the past to collaborate and I've tended not to I've almost felt a sense of competition and a sense of uh jealousy a sense of um yeah let's use those two words so I was reflecting on that why is that and part of it is because of my early upbringing I'm the eldest of three and I had a brother who was born a year younger than me and when my mother had him she went away I was left with another relative and when she came back. I ignored her and I was jealous of him. I this sense of being replaced, this sense of uh being left and and even though that was something that happened at a young age through inquiry, I could see how it was almost like influencing me in the present until I was conscious and I didn't necessarily need to choose to fall into that old pattern or that old story of uh I you know I'm not chosen or I'm you know uh left or abandoned and I could choose something differently. So one of their keys alone is to recognize when are we feeling something strong about an individual and how might you know that tell us something about our own selves to be curious and say to bring a sense of deep curiosity into our own selves rather than to only be looking outward and the metaphor of the projector you know it's what we're feeling in we're projecting out to be curious what that source of that is within you And uh so that's one of the one of the um practical things people could do. And we're not short of uh opportunities to do that. I would imagine we're projecting onto our spouses, onto our friends, onto government leaders. There's always something there that we can be curious about and that we might want to say, what is it that I've disowned in myself that I need to put out onto others? Nice. Yeah. I remember Byron Katy. I don't know if your listeners, viewers, they probably know her. And uh whenever somebody accused her of something like you're selfish, you're, you know, you're greedy, you're just this. She wouldn't uh reject it, you know, even if it was a projection because in every projection there's a kernel of truth that allows people to hook onto and make the projection. But she would look inside herself and say and find instances in her life when she is selfish where she is greed and say she would say yes you're right. So I think finding owning the parts of ourselves that we maybe deny because we have a persona you know Yung used that metaphor of a mask this professional personal persona that we want to show to the world. uh and uh being able to claim that the metaphor I think it was by Debbie Ford in her early book called the dark side of the light chasers she gives the metaphor of being born in a in a as an infant in a in a huge castle and every possibility is available you cry you poop you smile you laugh and as you get older you're told don't do this don't do that and it's as if you know firstly like rooms are closed in the castle you can't show this baby you can't then entire entire wings are closed and then after you're an adult, you've got like two or three rooms only, you know, rather than the whole castle because you're so limited in where you're habitually allowed to live, express, feel. And um yeah, it comes back to the metaphor I mentioned about being at the beginning about being fully human, fully alive. The metaphor I have is standing naked in the rain being able to feel every sensation on the body open to life in all of its uh wonder, majesty, darkness, everything and every emotion and feeling and uh not having you know this resistance to life. So I think that's the kind of uh aliveness that can be available when we uh face our shadows. You know, I start the book with a composer. He his name is Sir Michael Tippet and he died at the age of 93 and uh he's not well known, but he was a very political composer and um he was a conscious objector to the war and he went to prison actually was imprisoned in Wormwood Scrubs in London and he said, you know, that political activism isn't enough. We need to have psychological uh maturity and his famous he wrote a liberta in the time of war at the in the aftermath of crystal a time of destruction lacrosse Germany and the liberta was called a child of our time and their line from the libertto is this I would know my shadow and my light so would I at last be whole and you know that's important how do we know our shadow shadow as well as our light. So would I at last behold and I think you know it's an act of psychological maturity to be able to look into what is it that we don't notice about ourselves that we don't find comfortable in order to grow and not to you know there's a term spiritual bypass where we try to avoid those in in favor of a perceived image of what spirituality should be. Mhm. where you know spirituality isn't isn't all light and halos. It's as you it's is as you said at the beginning you know it's more grit. It's more you know it's more challenging you know only once somebody starts to know then they feel like the imposter because they they know what they they know what they don't know and they start to you know understand you know it's it's that pro it's that process of ever deepening and uh growing into awake awakening rather than awaken so it's yeah I noticed that so often when This when people go and start looking for what they really am or to find the true essence or that silence underneath it all, stillness, spaciousness, when that opens up. Oh, hello. Wonderful. But then everything that has just been under the surface suddenly becomes visible. Like there is a light shining on all the parts that haven't been allowed. Mhm. And it's a lot to do with safety at this point. It's like safety is crucial thing. Just knowing that it's safe to look at these parts to feel these emotions. It's safe to be with what arises and yeah and through that there is opening opening more expanding more feeling feeling light as well as as heavy. It just goes both ways like the highest high goes higher and the lowest low can go lower and all in between and then yes such a curious thing. Yeah. Well, the shadow is um split off or part of ourselves. So not something that's separate life to us. It is is us. It's not we're trying to make it into another entity or something like this. And it was created because of some form of trauma and not safety. you know, when we couldn't express and feel safely. And I think to your point, healing the shadow is relational. It doesn't happen necessarily in a in a room alone. It happens in relationship where we can feel, you know, what is it that we were ashamed to feel or we couldn't feel without judgment in in in a space that we can be met. I'll give you a real example. I did um a plant medicine retreat last year and it was a small group. Okay. It was in in the Netherlands and uh it was with psilocybin and um the whole the the it was with four therapists who were all you know trained in IFS in internal family systems and you know what happened was rather than going off onto some you know crazy trip where you know you'd see images etc. They gave you just enough that what happened in the what was happening in your unconscious in the shadow emerged and you could reexperience that and that feeling or whatever it needed to be which my conscious mind would never have you know thought about came and uh you would work in the presence of of uh somebody who was able to be with you in that moment and uh and that was the source of the healing you know that being with in in that pain or in that um place of shame or in that place of just um um where we had to cut off and being okay you know meeting that part as it is and having having that sense of connection and I think that is vital you know to shadow work isn't about trying to expel parts of ourselves or trying to um repress or trying to make bad you know this is part of me I just need to manage it's about meeting uh with more tenderness and compassion that those parts of us and often those parts are very little and you know and uh and yeah so I'd say that's a key um one of the things to explore around shadow work how we can we can create the safety and the relational safety to do that kind of work and it's not something you can force I think it comes with time, but I think it's something that um when you're ready for it, like uh it's something to that can really help make life a lot richer and uh deeper than just let's say the the the positive sides of uh of Nice.

I'm laughing because I remember some silly situation where I recognized that I don't like people who are judgmental and I was judging people who were jud judgmental. It was such a Yes. Oh, they shouldn't be judging. I'm not I'm not judging. Yes. It's funny. It's that's like Yeah. The mind is very clever, isn't it? Yeah. That's projecting the shadow on somebody else saying, "Oh, no. I'm not I'm not judging." Funny. It is funny. And it's good that you're bringing a sense of lightness. You know, I I have a friend. He's not a friend really but more of acquaintance and uh you know part of the shadow work you know we have an image that has to be like deadly serious and in depth and almost dark but it can be done in a playful way as you've just just demonstrated you know recognizing with lightness the kind of patterns we have and being able to oh here I go again rather than beating ourselves because the ego loves to beat ourselves up. It keeps us stuck in shame, in guilt, etc. So that was a beautiful example alone of recognizing then how silly we can be, you know, and how the how the shadow does operate in projection and stuff like this. And know by our by our own behavior and as we become more conscious, we become ever more aware of those layers where we where we do where there is a disconnect. Yes. Yeah. What's about with this whipping ourselves? Like you're bad. You shouldn't be doing this. Shame on you. Part of it education. Yeah, I know. I had a lot of it. You know, I I joke I would rub a Catholic and I call it like a PhD and guilt and shame. Oh wow. Because you're taught a lot about guilt. You're taught a lot about shame, about sin. And these messages even as a child, as an adult, they stay with you. And they may not be for all view all listeners and viewers. They may not be from your church, but often from parental figures or from, you know, maybe even from your society, you know, what's acceptable, what's not. Uh quite funny examples, you know, but culturally as well, like in uh in Japan, for example, uh women don't laugh without covering their mouth. And it's like, you know, so you know, you can't express laughter. You have to cover it. And it's quite it's interesting what society enables. and culturally and what it disables. And so it's not, you know, that comes back to this idea of the the social or the systemic shadow, well, the collective uh shadow. It's not just my own uh shadow that we're dealing with here. You know, there's a whole sense of generational collective shadow that we're also imshed in, you know, as as part of being human. we're not just this island, but that we're imshed in different collective shadows, too. So, you know, recognizing and uh what are the paradigms, what are the the shadows maybe that we're living out of and that we're not necessarily conscious of. So, this is also some part of the work. So, what you said earlier, you you know, you're operating from shadow when you feel uncomfortable. Is that what it is? often often. Yes. Often there's a sense of it's not necessarily you could you know when you're repeating a pattern as well. So let's say you find yourself always getting angry and uh or you're sabotaging you know just before you get the job you do something or just before when the relationship is going well you tend to derail it and blow it up. So there's also patterns and you know we use the language of familiar patterns because often they are family patterns. So there's you know that's um that's always something to to be aware of. But yeah, it's almost when yeah things are happening and you wonder why you keep on doing things and you wonder why things keep on happening that you know maybe you you recognize that it's not something that you you would choose to have happen all again and again. So therefore maybe something below the surface below your unconscious conscious mind is also guiding you.

What's your thoughts alone? I'm curious with your own work on the shadow particularly in the context of guiding people uh to awakening. What what observations have you had around the topic in in your work with people? Thank you for question. Um I don't necessarily use the word shadow. I don't necessarily bring young in a conversation, but yes, it's all about meeting the uncomfortable, meeting the parts that have that are unconscious, the patterns that keep repeating themselves. And we know about these patterns from the stories that keep repeating themselves. They want to be told again and again. And it's like, I could let everything go, but not this one. You know, this I will never let go. You know, that's that there is something there. So then just by acknowledging the story can drop into into the energy beneath it or behind it or something that is felt in the body as a contraction something that is holding tightness and you maybe are living with that tightness for many many years don't even know it's there anymore because it's so familiar but as soon as it goes it's like oh my god what was I carrying? Yes I love that. I love you brought the body in because you know the you you also said you know the question how do you know the sh and the body is the source you know the as you said a tightening of or clenching or shortness of breath heart palpitations clammy hands the body withdrawing the body you know as you're saying this is a a huge source of uh knowledge and wisdom if we're able to listen to the body equally in part of shadow work. And um you know in terms of working with leaders sometimes I I use a lot of consolation work but not family constellation work but more organizational. So I might get them to let's say they were thinking of a decision do I do this in my career or I do this rather than working with just the conscious mind. I might get them to stand, you know, on different decisions and notice what happens in their body. You know, how does their posture change? How does their breathing change? How does their their sense of heaviness or lightness change? And uh this was al also showing what's not you know what isn't in our conscious mind and what what is available and at least as not the truth but as a source of information that they can uh you know think uh reflect on and inform them in their choice and I think uh much of the the the best shadow work is embodied not just uh conversation but to your point noticing what's happening in the body and how does the that play out in in the way you carry yourself in the way that you use your body in the in daytoday. So it's an important point uh that you brought up. Yeah. And you know we can talk about this work in so many different languages. Yes. Meaning different conceptual overlay you know karma same thing. Yes. Yes. But it it doesn't really matter how we frame it unless we are talking to somebody and want to find the conversation that we both understand. So it's shadow today that it can be something else. But what we want is just to know the parts that have been cast away. They all are screaming. It's the noise in the system. The system is so noisy with everything that is tied calling for our attention. to to be okay, to be allowed and included and belong. It's like all these parts just like fireworks spread out into the field and now they are they want to come back. That's all it is. They want to come back and when they come back it feels more whole, more complete, more solid, more grounded, more human, right? I think I'm not an expert in in integrated family systems, but they call those parts exiles. And I like that metaphor. You know, you're welcoming back the exiled parts of yourself that have been cast out and now, you know, you're preparing preparing for them to come home. And you're right, you will feel more home. And it's quite funny. I I think one of their concepts as well is their is the idea of, you know, those bad thoughts, critical thoughts, judgmental. We we talked about they might call the to mentors and but but breaking it up the to hyphen mentor. So they're there as mentors. They're there to mentor you to teach to teach us not there to you know to punish us. So there's a there's a richness in, you know, whe it's shamanic work and or reclaiming the parts of ourselves and uh bringing us uh to more wholeness. And I think I I love the the idea that they're not really separate. They're always there. It's just allowing. as you said is not trying to create or find or you know it's a it's almost like a it's a it's a I use in my work I use this idea of negative capability which is the opposite of a positive doing and the phrase was used by a poet his name was John Keats and uh he was writing in the in the 18th century and he wrote a letter to his brothers and um he described negative capability as the ability to be with mystery, uncertainty and doubt without irritable reaching after fact and reason. And what he was trying to say here was it's not only about trying to add more tools to our tool kit, but it's almost like making space allowing giving the being able to sit with the ambiguity the unknown and allow you know these things to impact and inform us and uh you know rather than quickly reaching after solutions and uh moving away from that space. So you know I think um part of the shadow work I think is also like this negative capability. It's not trying to actively search for our shadows and you know try and integrate ourselves and making it like a project but uh noticing when something comes up and then being able to be reflexive in the moment in saying okay what might be going on being curious again I come back to that curiosity and um that may be a a key or window into understanding more reclaiming more parts of ourselves with compassion And as as we discussed, compassion and patience and kindness and not like, hey, why is it still here? Get out. Yes, you're right. It might come back again. you know these things aren't like I don't know your experience working with people and as you said you know we have a a concept that once we are awakened everything is perfect but it's more like it might come around again and again you might meet the old friend again but you know hopefully you're not meeting them the same as the first time you met them and uh they're they're running you running you less and less and you're more able to be friends with them. So it's uh yeah this idea of uh not having this I'm I'm healed and I'm done but you know I'm I'm awake and now I'm aware and uh it's a different approach to to shadow work. So it's really bad news for those people who think that awakening is going to solve all the dark stuff. Yeah. Probably not. Probably not. Yes. It's very bad news. Yes, because there is no escape. There is no how to see. Um, yes, the only way through is in. Unfortunately, they'll see more. They should see more of their dark side. Yes. The more awake you are, the more you'll see yourself. So, that's the that's the crazy part. uh the less you should see yourself as a figure of light and uh more that you'll see you'll be able to recognize the dark as well.

It's really interesting topic. I love it. Thank you. Thank you, Anona. I'm Yeah, I'm really happy that you invited me to speak about it and I hope uh something in in our conversation is enriching for uh listeners and and viewers to explore this topic uh more for themselves. I think it's re reaffirming that there is nothing wrong with anyone's experience. You know, all these heavy difficult emotions or stories that keep running It's okay. That's what it's all about. Meeting them differently, not getting rid of them. It's not like coming out in the clouds and angelic light and pure bliss. Yes, that may happen. But more often than not, first you have to clean up the mess. Yes. Yes. The rejects need to come back home. Then there is more space for that light to show up. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

For me, it was interest. It's interesting because I meet so many people over I don't know 14 years now working with this

and there's always this this moment where oh I seen it. This is wonderful. Everything's clears out. I see thoughts as thoughts, emotions as emotions. I can take everything. And after a while, there is this coming back to the to the old, unwanted. And it's such a disappointment.

Why is this still here?

I think you're right. We need to come back again and again and uh to meet that parts of us or the small parts or the hidden parts or the exiled parts and um welcome them over and over again and it is a it's an act of I think the word is tenderness you know how do you how do you you have it in your voice as well but it's how do you how do you meet them with tenderness you know and uh it's an it's an ongoing relationship I guess yes with uh acceptance and uh with your with yourself. So this is more a path to walk on a path of deeper acceptance of loving acceptance. Yeah.

What a trip this life isn't it? Yes. It's juicy for sure. It's very interesting and alive. Yeah. Yeah. And like you mentioned the castle with all the closed doors and all these lost children are screaming there. Me too. Me too. I want to be included. Imagine you open all these doors and all these children are happy and playing and joyful and running around curious exploring thing the castle like wow that's the best. Oh my god this is fun. This is fun. It's a funny metaphor, but it's a beautiful one. It reminds you of like in Indiana Jones, the Temple of Doom, where he frees all the children that are kept slaves in the mines working underground, and they all run back. And, you know, there's a lot of joy and a lot of energy and a lot of freedom. And I think maybe yeah, that's the it's a good metaphor, I think, of the possibility that can come from this work. So, it's it's not necessarily coming back. It is a place of lightness but know while while we're doing it and uh it's it is delicate I think it does require a holding does require a being with you know and uh those capacities and so you know I would say to to listeners or viewers yes you can do it in a you know reflection in a journal etc but the the best place to do it is with somebody that can be there with you and uh relationally and you know and let it be okay you know so you feel safe that you can you know you're not going to die that you can't be bet you can be held you can be uh there's a sense of allowing and I think that's the the beauty of the gift of you know the work you do as a guide the work that healers do therapists do but that we can all do and we do by, you know, less judgment and more acceptance. And my belief is that if we can do that for ourselves, we're going to be projecting out a lot less. We're going to be judging others a lot less cuz we know we don't need to. We've done it. We've done it in our own work. So, yeah. So, that's that's the possibility here. It's a it's a more kinder world uh better world when we have done you know when when we've been kinder to ourselves.

So what's happening here is reflected outwards isn't it?

So looking at the state of affairs these days on the planet earth

I think it's just reflecting how much is going on in Italy. how much stuff is coming out, how much work is being.

It's really interesting like you know there's the political uh sphere where you know there's a judgment about egoic leaders, narcissists and this is all true but at this at the other level it's also true that there's a huge disruption happening and you know things are shaken and you know, one of their their metaphors, you know, when I was in a situation in a company and I was saying, you know, I'm really anxious because everything is changing. My mentor said to me, Steve, this is the best time. Because when everything is solid and fixed, there's no change, there's no transformation, there's no opportunity. So, yes, it's difficult. Yes, we can feel anxious, but it's also that space of uh possibility, change, transformation if we choose, if we can meet it, you know, we're not going to if we don't solidify to our old behavior, if we make new choices and uh there was a beautiful I know this isn't a political podcast, but speech by Mark Carney. Becoming less the fortress is a word he used. He talked about the castle said we need less fortresses. We need to become less defens defensive and more allow ourselves to open open ourselves and it's beautiful language maybe you can link to the to the speech in the notes alone but it talks about the shadow really talks about you know what kind of who do we choose to be in in this world who are we choosing to be and I think uh I think that's a it's a call recognizing that the work we're doing is is meaningful. It's not just uh it helps society. It's not just our own personal development. It's uh development for a better world. It's development for others as well. Therefore, more just, equitable, peaceful, fair world. And I think we need to remember that in in our work. It's not just a privatized uh spirituality because as you say, we are not an island. Yeah. We feel joy, it spills out. We feel grief, it spills out. Yes. And uh who do you work with? Do you work with private people or or just leaders? Let's say somebody watching the show wants to get in contact with you. Do you offer this kind of work? Um right now I do mostly um work with organizations in Luna. So mostly uh keynotes and workshops and uh potentially looking at offering a retreat and uh in the summer in Romania and uh a journey for leaders that want to explore how the power of negative capability can unlock leadership transformation. The best way to find me is leading fromthedark.com and uh I have uh just launched a newsletter where I explore negative capabilities each two weeks like stillness and the last one was on simplicity. So it's a good practice for me to uh inquire and see how can I live these in in my own life and then how can I share uh with others. So that's the best way people can engage with me by connecting there. Great. And what's the name of your website? Uh, leading from the dark.com. Sweet. I love it. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. And the last question, a spiritual seeker who's who listen to hold of the conversation right to the end, what would be your final words? What do you think they need to hear?

Yeah, I put one word and that's love.

Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you, Ilona. Thank you. What a pleasure to share with you. Yeah, likewise. Um I didn't know what I was going to say and I just um was enjoying our conversation, seeing what came up. Yeah. Cool. Thank you. Thank Thank you everyone for watching and listening and tune to tune back in next time.