Where Are You Looking From?

Today I share a very simple way of looking at experience.

Using a drawing of two lines, we explore what is here in direct experience.

One line represents life as it is happening — movement, thoughts, sensations, everything that appears.
 The other points to simple being — the sense of presence, the knowing that you are here.

Between these, there is what we often take ourselves to be — a kind of “bundle” made of reactions, thoughts, and patterns. This bundle seems to be the one living life, making decisions, trying to control what happens.

In the talk, we look at this directly.

In this episode, we continue that exploration in a live Q&A.

A participant describes their experience using the image of a lotus and scribbled lines — something clear and present, and the movement of thoughts appearing over it.

From there, we look more closely.

Is there something underneath that needs to come forward? Or is that another way of thinking about what is here? Again and again, the attention returns to what is actually happening.

Thoughts appear. Reactions happen.
 A sense of “me” seems to form in the middle as a relationship.

But when this is looked at directly, what is really there?

There is a simple shift in seeing — from being caught in the movement, to noticing what is always here.

Music by Valdi Sabev.
In loving memory and gratitude for the music he shared.

Coming this April, an 8-week Experience of Guided Self-Inquiry to see through the illusion of a separate self. More info here:

https://bit.ly/4m3juCG

Transcript

Ilona 0:00

Awakening is direct recognition of what you are, a shift in perception from what you thought you are to a clear, direct seeing of the truth of your being. You are listening to Awakening Now, a podcast supporting the journey of seeing what is real and living from that recognition. This is episode number 125. Where are you looking from? My name is Ilona Tsunaite. I am a guide, an author, and co-creator of the Liberation English community. And if you are in the process of awakening, the space is for you. For the past 14 years, I have been guiding and supporting seekers in discovering peace and freedom through direct experience. In this episode, I share a simple way to describe this shift in perception using two lines and the space in between. You may recognize this in your own experience. And I also share a live conversation from a group meeting where we explore how the sense of me appears in real time and what becomes clear when it's looked at directly. Let's begin. But having a clear description always helps to connect to your own experience. If you have a pen and paper handy or something, just anything, a simple tiny square, and a pen, we're just gonna draw two lines. That's all. But if you have that, it will help you to connect in even deeper to this. If you just draw a vertical line in the center at the top part of your screen, just a vertical line, no block, just something, just a stick. And this line is going to represent life or everything that is happening. Everything that is happening, is it's what is what is here right now. Color, sounds, sensations, perceptions, thoughts, images, everything, everything that is here right now. Like right now, in this moment, we are sitting here by a computer. There's talking, there's listening, there is understanding. That's all. That's it. This is what is here right now. In other words, this is life happening. The present moment is expressing as this. So maybe the relationship is going up, but the work stuff is going down, and the kids are being naughty, and you got promoted, or whatever. Oh, I'm feeling great this moment, I'm feeling not so great another moment. So there is a movement, so that line is not just a static thing, it's a movement, it's a flow, and it's here right now, and underneath that line, let's draw another one, a horizontal one, just at the bottom of the page. And what this represents is being, simply being. In other words, I am here. The horizontal line is this openness, this space, from which everything is seen, from which life is seen. So there is what is being and what's happening. There is a gap in between, and in that gap, as you can see on my screen, there is some entangled wall or a mess. There is something going on there in between these lines. So this is what we call me. This is the relationship. Life is going on, things come up, events, situations, feelings, emotions, everything is coming up, but then there is this judgment, evaluation, comparison, wanting, shoulds, and shouldn't. Oh, and everything that we the way we relate with life, with simply events, and there's so much going on there. Self-judgment, criticism, judging others. I don't even know how to describe this mess, but this is the relationship we have with what's happening normally, and this mess is self-happening too. But from here, from that bundle, people often refer to themselves as a bundle of thoughts, emotions, and stories. This is what the bundle looks like: it's just entanglement, and from here, there is always a need to fix, to change, to correct, to avoid, to run away, to get more, to get less. Always there is that push and pull, resistance, protection. Because look, this life, the line at the top, has to be manipulated, and it's my job as a bundle to make sure that it goes the way I want it to go. Because that's what I've been taught. I have to make decisions, I have to choose, and I have to choose rightly and wisely, otherwise, life is not going to go the way I want. And this this bundle of thought shows up in our experience as a narrative about me, the doer. Me, the one is that is making decisions, and you know how many bad decisions I made. Oh my god, what's wrong with me? How could they choose that? Oh, I've done so many mistakes, but and I'm going to beat myself for it. So it's kind of a pattern, which is also happening. It's not apart from life, but it feels like a relationship with what is happening that is self-sustaining, self-correcting, self-judging, and it also wants to get out of there. That seeking that we all feel is knowing that there is another way, that there is something there that maybe this is not the optimal way to run. But that entanglement is not letting go of itself because that's what is me. This is what we feel as me. I resist, I don't like, I want, I, me. This is my character, and don't take any parts away from me because I will be less of me. Do you recognize that in your experience? So, what is the shift in perception? The shift is in perception is recognizing that life is going on by itself, and that bundle of thought that talks about itself by itself is also going on by itself. And I am here, I am here, I'm present, I see all that, and all there is space for everything. This lastness that is presently here contains everything. The relationship with life can be messy and a lot of things to solve, but it's also part of life, and it's also just happening. So, what to do with that? If you just look at the line that you drew at the bottom and just feel into it, I'm here, not as a dot, but as a line, as a space, not as something limited and really strict and bright and small and tiny, but as a space, as the openness. And from that, from here, from this beingness, don't need to fix anything. It's just dropping into being. Right here, right now. Just being. So then what to do with this mess? From the from here, from being, there is nothing to do. I'm not even touched by that mess. I'm simply here. And from the middle of the bundle, it's impossible to change anything. The only thing that can happen is to drop out into just being. So life is happening. The mental noise is happening. And being just is. And can I ask you, are you here? Are you here right now? I'm here. It's not like a magic trick, it's not something mysterious or mystical. It's this very, very ordinary, simple B. Now you may say that this this bundle is has a magnetic pole. It's very strong. It's impossible to get out. It has so many stories about the past, so many what lives about the future, it's just impossible to to get out. And and that's when we feel trapped, when we are looking from that bundle. And it's really painful, and you know that. Because when you get in the mind about how things should be, and the why are they not like it, I want it, and why can't I change anything and what to do? I don't know what to do, but I am the doer. It's just fighting itself. And there is a way to get out of that. It there is a way not to just be present now and seeing it all happen, kind of getting detached from that. There is a way for this to harmonize. Yeah, it can be like this. And this is what this seeker mind wants, really. Harmony, peace and whatever you're feeling looking at this lotus flower, whatever it represents in you. This non-resistance, lightness, ease. You know that one too. So, how to get from the mess into this state permanently? That's the question, right? This is this is the million dollar question. How to get out of the head into a harmonious and loving and kind relationship with life itself, with what's happening. And the answer is again in the bottom line in being, in presence. But the beautiful thing about our given material that we have to work with is that it is helping itself, it doesn't do anything to uh destroy itself. If it does that, it only because there is something there that says, no, this is going to help. Like even if you if you look at the immune system, human body's immune system, it's here to help, it's fighting off disease, it's protecting the organism from whatever intrusion intrusion, and sometimes it you know, people get autoimmune disease, but it's only because that immune system somehow perceives the difference that it has to fight itself to help. So that's just a tiny little example from biology, but the mental thing is also messed up because it's trying to help, it only wants to help. So from being from being here, we can start noticing what is going on, and from being here, we don't need to change it, we can see it. We can see that it's happening by itself, with this notion that it's here to be helpful somehow, even though it's not. But then there is a question: how is this helping really? And from the entangled place, from this place, it looks like I have to fix this. I am responsible and I have to fix this, and it will never happen because this cannot be fixed in that way, it's not like shut up, mind now, stop thinking stupid thoughts, stop being negative. It doesn't work like that, but this is this is what comes from the relationship that we call me. But when we are looking at just being, being here, being present. What if everything's okay? What if nothing needs to be changed? Right in this moment, then this moment can be as it is. And and with that, something shifts. Very subtle, no magic, it's just oh it's here already. Life is going on already. And it can be as it is. And I know that this theory or this explanation is one thing, a lived experience is something else. But maybe just seeing this, that there is life going on by itself, there is a relationship which is messed up and wants to be clarified, wants to release, wants to come back to peaceful state by nature, and it needs your presence, acknowledged presence, aware presence to self-correct. It's such a funny thing, this language, because we use this word self, and it's so weird because when I say me myself, it's like the self that is doing something when this self means self-happening. Self happening, it's happening by itself. Even this me is happening by itself. Everything is happening by itself. So there is an invitation to just drop drop all the mess. Let it be stop fixing it, stop trying to escape it, stop, stop and acknowledge I am here. I am here now. And this is this is what awakening can be described as just ending off the search for something else, recognizing your true nature, being awake to what is here. Being awake doesn't mean doing it, but being awake means being present, being here. So the shift in perception is really where are you looking from? And where are you looking from? That's what you see. If you're looking from entangled mess trying to fix itself, yourself, myself, then you are stuck. And I may take years to get unstuck, to see that this is not controllable itself happening. But that recognition of I am here is available now. Don't need to wait years for that, is here now. And here we are. Hello, hi Jeff.

Speaker 20:33

Thanks for that. I really uh enjoy that that depiction of it. Um the way that I see it though is that um in reality for me um it's more like the lotus flower is there always, but the scribbled lines are on top of it, covering it up. And so kind of the the purpose of the path is to make it script. It's not to like erase the scribbled lines. The scribbled lines are always going to be there, but it's to make it so that the lotus flower comes up on top of the scribbled lines. So that's what's present even when the scribbled lines are running in the background. So it's sort of shifting the focus of the scribbled lines covering the lotus flower to the lotus flower covering the scribbled lines. That's sort of the way you know I perceive the path and then to take it even kind of one step further is that there's no actual me in any of that. It's just what's happening. And that um and that kind of what we're doing in in all this practice is training the mind is training itself essentially to pull the lotus flower in front of the scribble lines. And so, you know, that's why we're here talking and sharing and so to everything. Step we take kind of pulls that lotus flower a little further forward. Um, and the scribbled lines fade into the background a little bit more, and and you know, so that's the way I've been experiencing it anyway. So I thought that was a really neat way to depict it. Thank you.

Ilona 22:15

Thank you, Jeff. Sweet. Yes, yes. Well, they they can be scribbled lines, but then they come into the light in the top vertical line because it seemed that it's also just happening. So that that the light includes it all. Everything's happening.

Speaker 22:40

Yeah, and uh, and there's no um you know, one of the shifts for me was realizing that that nothing really changes as you become more awake. Everything still happens, you know, emotions still arise, you know, anger arises. But you know, there's that lotus flower that's a little more clear every time. And so everything that's arising has less grip to it, you know, it's just catching you a little bit less. So that was kind of a shift for me, is like I kept hoping that you know some event was gonna happen that was gonna cause uh all the suffering to go away. And and the suffering does ease quite a bit, but the things that cause the suffering are still present, there's just a different orientation to them. Thank you.

Ilona 23:36

That resonates, yes.

Speaker 1 23:43

Yeah, I I guess he called Chef now the one who was speaking now because he just uh said it in a different way, but he um explained it very well what I wanted to say, and and uh what you say as well. It it's very beautiful that yeah, it's everything, and if it's in this bundle now, then it is in the bundle, but the lotus flower is also here in the same time, and yeah, just not recognizing maybe clearly.

Ilona 24:22

Yeah, so thank you very much. Thank you, yeah. Okay, uh Ben, please. Yeah, thanks.

Speaker 2 24:35

Um would it do you think it'd it'd be helpful to consider that ball of chaos what other people may describe as shadow material? And and what are your thoughts on the amount of um like somatic or or feeling through that ball of chaos that's needed to get to the bottom layer of reality?

Ilona 25:04

Yeah, I agree. There is a lot of work in in a somatic way. In I mean, we can approach that from many, many different angles, and everything is right because if it's right for you, it's here. And it's just entangling it. Like everything can be a wave. It doesn't have to go into contraction. Everything is still happening, but more like a wave that has ups and downs and it's flowing freely rather than something that goes in and starts in many cases beating itself up and contracting more, feeling unsafe, feeling fear, feeling terror, being afraid of life, being afraid of yourself. So all this wants to go. That's what I meant by that the system wants to come back to its natural state, and so all these situations arise to give an opportunity to see what's going on. And whatever work you need to do. Whatever feels right. There is no right and wrong here, it's your path and whatever is arising and feels yes, this is the next step. But okay, we can just bring in also the nervous system because the nervous system in this body biologically is very sensitive and it reacts to the environment, reacts to other people, reacts to your own thoughts and to your own emotions, and then there is a relationship with that of this is too much. I can't handle this. How do you shut down? So we have to respect that.

Speaker 3 27:30

Hi, hello. Uh yeah, it's a very nice metaphor, a visual metaphor, and uh I feel like after the initial shift, like it's been uh a couple months, and um I'm more and more outside the bundle, but the I I still sometimes find myself inside the bundle, and uh I noticed that uh the more the mind moves and tries to untangle itself from the bundle, the more the bundle uh it entangles its itself even more. So it it's not like a matter of moving inside the bundle to get out of the bundle, but sometimes for no reason the the the mind the mind and the bundle are seen like from outside and everything is clear again. And um there is more and more time spent uh watching the bundle from from outside, even if there is no outside or inside, it's just uh a metaphor. But uh from time to time the mind still finds itself inside, trapped inside the bundle. I don't know how to explain it. Yeah, and um and it it happens apparently, it happens when the the body is tired, or when there is um very strong stimulus from outside, when there is like resistance um from outside, and the mind goes inside the bundle, and then it it comes about again. There is this um getting in and coming out of the bundle still, so it can be confusing, but uh in the moments when I'm outside the bundle, there is not not no one outside the bundle, but but in the metaphor, when the bundle is seen from outside, it's very clear and it's uh even funny, even like in a funny way, you see how the mind uh gets uh itself in trouble, and and it's like uh it gets itself in trouble by itself for no reason. But when the mind finds itself inside the bundle, it's like it struggles to come to get out of the bundle again, and it doubts there is a lot of doubt that it will get out of the bundle again, it is scared of not getting out of the bundle, and it that it's not possible to get out of the bundle, out of the bundle again, and so there is a lot of doubt. Then the mind comes out of the bundle for no reason, and all this doubt is uh is seen uh as uh just uh fear and thoughts and more thought stuff, and the story is seen in its uh whole entirety, and so there is this uh yeah, staying in the bundle and coming out of the bundle for no reason, yeah. So it's a bit confusing, I don't know.

Ilona 30:39

Yes, yes, that that's how it is, yeah. Yeah, and the exit is not by breaking the bundle, fixing the bundle, it's just taking a breath. I am here. Are you here?

Speaker 3 30:59

Yeah, yeah.

Ilona 31:00

I'm here, right? How do you know that? How do you know that you are here because it's it's here like it it's immediately felt and uh the bundle is up there the bundle is um it's not even here when you are here the bundle is not here, the bundle goes back into the line, and just like oh it's just some another rising, another thing happening, another wave. But the shift is so quick taking a breath. Are you here? I'm here. What's here?

Speaker 3 31:43

Yeah, sometimes yeah, it seems like uh the more the mind moves, the more the bundle uh entangles itself in them even more. It's like when the mind is still, maybe it can slip outside of the bundle. I don't know. This metaphor is getting out of hand, so uh yeah, yeah, but but it it you're right, you're right. Yeah, it's uh it's here, it's here, and the bundle uh it's very unsubstantial, it's very uh thin and uh not solid. Like the bundle is uh is not uh it has no dimension, it has no weight, uh, it has no solidity when it's seen from outside, uh it's just a bunch of ideas uh and thoughts. But uh when you are inside the bundle, it feels very real. Yeah, yeah.

Ilona 32:45

Yeah, that's how you know that you are inside of the self-referential loop that is.

Speaker 3 32:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's the self-referential loop that uh it's tricky to see from outside because uh it feeds feeds itself. So maybe it's because of that that uh it you seem to get into the bundle and come out of the bundle for no reason because like when you're inside the loop, uh it seems that you can't get yourself out of the loop by sheer uh will will power. So something uh outside of your power needs to to to tough, there is no power in the in the bundle, really.

Ilona 33:36

The power is I'm here.

Speaker 3 33:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ilona 33:40

I'm here.

Speaker 3 33:43

Okay.

Ilona 33:44

Thank you, David. Thank you. Hi, we have Daniel, please. Daniel. Oh, you you are unmute you need to unmute yourself, please.

Speaker 4 34:04

Ah, sorry. Yeah, thank you. I liked your visual uh allegory uh very nicely too, if that's the right word. Um yeah, it works, like it helps you put you in another mind space and and and abstract it a little bit and just see it basically. Um so thank you for this example. My my question is like the mind, as you said, like the immune system is like uh probably a tool evolved or there to help us doing practical things, you know, not not running against the door when you want to leave the the room, you know. So that somebody has to open it. Like, and I do a lot of that actually, I kind of actually also enjoy it. Like planning is part of our daily lives, right? But when I plan something through and say, what do I need to do today? I put myself in my mind's eye in that position to think about the different things I need to do, and there's it again, the eye. But it's a very natural thing, I think. Like it's kind of weird to me like to say I shouldn't have the eye, the eye is not real, and what to do with the eye. Because if I want to plan where I need to go to clean up the house, I put myself into these mental positions, right? Like, so this I put whoever puts me there, but uh somebody puts me there in this mental positions, moves through the things, and uh yeah, and also while I'm in there, I'm kind of not everywhere, like this is the shift where I'm like then in my mind, in my thoughts, but then I go back maybe to a more general being kindness, but it's is that good or bad or normal or what what like am I am I missing? Like, can you have both at the same time? You do the planning, think about how you do the shopping through the supermarket, where's the fruits first, and then to the yogurts, and then out uh while being aware.

Ilona 35:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This everything that is happening, the movement is life, it's happening by itself. And you are here, and you see it all happening. The eye thoughts arise, yeah. Planning, going doing is also a happening. That's the funny thing for the for the mind. It's like, no, I'm doing this, I'm deciding, I'm choosing, I'm I'm me. But doing is also happening, it's just another arising that is happening.

Speaker 4 36:36

What did you say? Doing it, it's happening, doing doing is happening, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see, I see, I see for sure.

Ilona 36:42

It's just another arising. So I am planning, I decided, it's also arising, but it's uh because what we have is this structure of language, and we cannot escape that because that it's been said for generations, and it would be weird to speak differently and nobody would understand. So using word I and seeing at the same time that it's not something that is doing anything.

Speaker 4 37:11

This this talk about language and stories always for me, it's always a little bit confusing, honestly. For me, it's more a mind's eye thing, maybe. I like more like visual, you know. If I imagine something, then I'm teleported away from here for in a blink of an eye, and then I'm thinking through something more visual. Maybe I have language, I know language, I use language, but for me it's more this maybe this is confusing to me. Is it maybe the same thing that you mean? Like we said, talk about language and story. Could it be a movie or uh or the different visual stories, maybe visual storytelling, which is happening, also right in my mind's eye?

Ilona 37:47

I'm talking something very, very basic. The language is has a structure, it says there is subject doing action. That's it. For the action cannot happen by itself, there's somebody doing it, like grass is growing. You know, we have to explain things, we have to describe things in a way that there is something doing something, someone doing something. That's the structure. So the eye becomes the doer of everything, and that's where the bundle starts building because this eye gets to be believed to be someone here that is doing everything and is in charge and has to manipulate and control, and and it wants to control oh, the whole mess, the human, it it's not like something to get rid of, it's just seeing it.

Speaker 4 38:41

Yeah, yeah, okay. I see okay, and that's then like the spaghetti spoon, like fork where everything's turning around, starts to to to to collect around this idea of I need to do this and that and so on and so on.

Ilona 38:57

Yeah, but from I'm here it can be seen. Um I am here, it's just words saying pointing to presence, not to uh someone, but to the how big is here it's difficult to say, it's all relative, right?

Speaker 4 39:18

Um, can I ask can I frame it another way once more? Like for me, it's like trying to become aware to become what I understand now as a horizontal line for me right now. It's like taking a break, you know, like you said, breeze. Then it's like going out and and and and taking back or getting out of the action, getting out of my whatever I'm doing, but then it's like to have a break. But for it to be natural to say, like uh, I would do this in the middle of a busy something, something wouldn't be so easy, especially if it's a mental activity. You know, I couldn't do my taxes at the same time. Maybe I can try. Maybe I need to do my taxes at the same time as as uh as being aware of me doing the taxes. Maybe that's that's good, huh?

Ilona 40:02

Okay, but do you get my point? Yes, I get your point. But what what I mean by bundle is by that messy thing, it's the relationship. It's the relationship with what's happening. Whatever is happening is happening. Let's say I can be doing taxes and be calm at ease, peace bar. It's just something that needs to be done, or it can be a really, really difficult mentally, emotionally, and even physically can't make myself to do it because I hate it. And all this story about that relationship, I can be there, harmonious, peaceful, quiet, or it can be a lot of noise. So it's seeing that okay, uh right, I'm sitting right now, and that's it, or I can be sitting right now and I'm in terror because what if, what if, what if, what if that little thing, that little thing makes the whole difference whether you're seeing that you are trapped or you are at peace. The relationship.

Speaker 4 41:15

Yeah, it's interesting, thank you. Yeah, I feel like I push myself into if I have to focus on something and put everything together, you know, like mental stuff and so on. And it feels like I have to force myself from one step to another sometimes if you're tired and so on, you know. But this is interesting, yeah. Yeah, to take myself out there a little bit. Thank you.

Ilona 41:32

Thank you, Daniel. Pleasure to talk to you.

Speaker 4 41:36

I hope it made sense. Thank you.

Ilona 41:40

Okay, Lennon. Hi, Luna. Hi Lennon.

Speaker 5 41:49

I think I would like to take a break take a moment and I'd like to talk about love.

Speaker 3 41:55

Okay.

Speaker 5 41:55

And uh I'd like to talk about being in love with the moment and being open to the moment. It's I think there comes a time when uh when I realize that the past and the present or the the past and the future, they exist in my mind only. But the moment is right now, is right here, and that's the only thing that I really have. And I've quoted that for years, and I've said that for years, and then at one point I was just like, Yeah, that's it. And if uh that happens, there's like can I now surrender? And can I say this is it's beautiful, it's utterly mysterious, and it's uh my mind used to be so afraid, it used to get bored and used to be afraid of the now. What if nothing happens of it? If it's but right now it is just it is endlessly mysterious what happens, and even if I don't, if the mind doesn't like it, I still love it.

Ilona 43:17

Does that make sense when I say that?

Speaker 5 43:20

So watching the mind and having battled against the mind for a long time it's maybe these are stepping stones and we have to do this for a while, but the mind just does what it does, and there's nothing that the battling is just another folly, and so can I just love the mind for what it's doing as well, you know, when that happens. So I think. For me, the safety really happens when I can just return to the right now. And you know, my my mind is afraid of speaking right now. But that's okay. You know, it can be afraid of speaking, afraid of making a fool of itself. It's okay. But I don't have to believe it. I don't have to believe that it is scary. I don't have to believe that, you know, even if I make a complete, if the mind believes it makes a complete fool of itself, it doesn't have to be believed. So I think just investigating beliefs. And man, I think at one point you said, like make a list of your beliefs, and I did that. And it was just God, what an eye opener, what a beautiful eye opener. And so maybe being in love with the moment, even if the mind is afraid, even if the mind is bored, even if the mind it's just what the mind does, but there still can be that deep love of the mystery of the moment. So I think that's what I wanted to say.

Ilona 45:14

Yeah. Thank you so much. Yes. It deeply resonates. It's it's a change of attitude, isn't it? Okay. It's a change of relationship with what is here. Thank you, ladies.

Speaker 2 45:58

Thanks. Uh sorry, I if I just if there was time, I wanted to ask one more or a couple of things I wanted to say. One is first of all, that was a great analogy. I love analogies, and sometimes it's counterproductive when with this whole thing, because you're supposed to drop all ideas and everything, but but at the same time, it's fun. And so um Daniel had a great question, and I I have struggled with that a lot, and and I liked your answer, and I wanted to add one more piece of advice that I've gotten on the same type of topic, which is um the I thoughts can continue, and all the all the ideas, projections of yourself moving through the world and doing tasks. But and this is the advice that I got, which I thought was really helpful that the key is to see clearly that those thoughts don't refer to anyone, those images don't refer to anyone. It's just like you said, it's a relationship, right? So so it comes back to yes, I I can see myself going to the grocery store, but there's not actually anyone going to the grocery store, and those thoughts are happening right now. You know, so it's like it's like it doesn't have to be an either-or thing, I think. Um I I know we're I know we're out on time. I I did want to go further into the analogy and talk about um again to see that flower through or on top of or below all the chaos. I'm wondering if there's like uh um like space and time seems to be in like woven into this. Like there has to be clear seeing of like a lack of of time more importantly, and to a certain extent, distance, like non-duality type of stuff. And that's probably way too much to get into because we're out of time, but uh I was wondering how because uh I haven't listened to all of your stuff, but I listened to a lot of it and I haven't heard you talk too much about non-duality and perception and time, you know, lack of time and and that sort of maybe that's too conceptual, but that was really my question.

Ilona 48:18

Okay. Are you here now? Are you here now? Yeah, all right. And here now, what is what is time? Just an idea.

unknown 48:32

Right.

Ilona 48:32

Well we know time by movement. Three seconds, one second. We know time by movement. That's how we perceive it. And then we compare it to what happened when it happened. There's always that measure of movement. Because when we are here now, just this. It's not even now, it's just openness, space. You have to bring in time through thinking. And that's conceptual, but being is not conceptual.

Speaker 3 49:22

Yeah, good. Thanks.

Ilona 49:25

Yes, thank you. Umesh, nice to meet you.

Speaker 6 49:35

Hi, Lona. Uh, nice to meet you too. Thank you. This is my first time joining a group uh online like this. Yes, uh, yeah. I just wanted to say to Lenny, uh she didn't make a fool of herself. I actually learned some things on what she said. Uh like even the thoughts that come, you can love them too, you know. Uh so that was uh that was good. I like that. Um for me, what I was also going to say is that the the picture that you showed us, uh the mess. Uh what happens to me in my experience is that it is mess, but as soon as I become aware of that, then it gets replaced. And I see myself more and more catching myself these days of the mess that is going on, and I become certainly aware of that, and then I see that okay, that's not me. Um, and then I'm immediately able to then step back, and and and when that happens, then the load disappears. It's not like the lotus was there, but the mess is there, and then when I step back, then the lot disappears. Um, so just wanted to share that in terms of how it happens to me. Uh, the other thing I wanted to say is that um I I also these days catch myself um uh like when you live a life, you have to do things, right? You have to talk, you have to do things, and all of that. And then when you uh when you do that, then after it gets over, then I say, then I see that. Oh, when that happened, I was totally involved in that, but I shouldn't be, I should have not done that, or I should have been known that I'm doing that. Um but I don't know if I'm thinking it, if if what I'm thinking is correct. Um, but uh but then when I'm think more about those things, it's sorry, thinking, thinking. You have to think to figure out things, right? Uh but it's like when I'm thinking, then then it just clicked to me when you were talking with Daniel uh before that the relationship, uh then it's like identifying the relationship. So if I think that if I'm beating myself, that when I'm talking, I forgot who I am and I was doing that, um, that's because I'm relating to that mess and all. So uh being aware of that relationship, knowing when you get into that relationship, it's all about being very super vigilant in a way, feels like it.

Ilona 52:34

Yeah, that's all yeah, yeah, and every moment, every situation, every arising is just an invitation to to see it from and and what you see is depending on where you are looking from. Right, and it's the recognition what's being seen helps to come back to you. The openness, yeah.

Speaker 6 53:02

I also see more and more um realizing that the things that get me into the mess is the things that I'm interested in, and but I don't want to be interested in it also. That's also the case.

Ilona 53:16

Oh, so there is fighting it, being interesting and fighting it.

Speaker 6 53:21

Yeah, sort of. It's like uh in a way that I don't want to be interested, but I feel sucked into it, pulled into it. Um, and when that happens, you lose um uh you lose that clarity, and and so sometimes I find myself fight fighting that I um that I can be interested, but I should not lose myself in it.

Ilona 53:49

Maybe you should because when you are going all the way in and you can see it differently, because fighting it, resisting it, it only adds energy to it. But if you say, All right then, let's go all the way in, what's that?

Speaker 6 54:09

But when I do that, then I lose that clarity of that that horizontal line that you're talking about.

Ilona 54:16

But look at this when the space opens, when there is fastness or felt sense of being open. Everything that has been repressed, denied, not invited, unloved. Kind of say, Oh, space open that's come up. I'm just giving it a voice, but you know, something comes up and it it comes up to be seen, so it can finally open up as well and return to its natural state. So when there is openness, stuff starts coming up, and if it's a lot of stuff coming up, it can be very intense, and then we start fighting it. But if you are if you are aware that what is coming up, it only wants to be free. Um for it to be free, it needs your awareness, then you can help it by going all the way in. But it's another conversation for another time, perhaps. But the the basic movement is when the space opens, this stuff starts coming up. When this resolves, more space opens. More stuff comes up. It's this movement which is going on for life. Just there's no no no end to expansion, no end to openness. And maybe it's not your stuff coming up now, it's somebody else's stuff. Call it collective or whatever. But there's something coming up to be seen, to be free, to get to get a permission to self-liberate because we're not doing it. We cannot release anything, we cannot solve it or sort it or fix it. Oh our awareness is what is needed for it to self-resolve. So when stuff comes up, thank you. Thank you. I'm here. This is here. It can be let's see. What's going on here? And with that you go in it, into it. The way out is in, right? And with that it it has a chance to open up more to be seen more, to self-correct.

Speaker 6 57:00

Yeah, so that that going in when you talk about right, uh, that has to be an aware thing that that is done, right? Uh uh it sometimes takes a while to realize that. And uh, and then sometimes you want to go or you have to go because of work life and stuff. But sometimes then you realize okay, I could avoid myself. There was no need for that. Uh uh, it just is again pulling me back into something uh into the mess that you were talking about. So it that's how it happens. Uh that and it's uh uh yeah, uh so it's about being being aware consciously doing uh if if it if if it needs to be going into the mess, then it is a conscious choice of doing it. I guess that's that's probably the right way to put it.

Speaker 3 58:08

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 58:10

But you have to be able to make that conscious choice, yes, and then but if you're not able to make that conscious choice, then you are in, and and so that's what I was referring to. Currently, many sometimes you're able to make it, sometimes you're not. Yes, and uh but it's uh that's why you have to be vigilant, then and the more vigilanced you become, then you will be able to make that conscious choice.

Ilona 58:40

That's it.

Speaker 3 58:43

Thank you.

Ilona 58:44

Thank you. Uh Yara, please.

Speaker 1 58:53

So I just wanted to say um something about uh Malaysh, I guess he's called, and when he was speaking, I was like um recognizing that um if like if I'm in the mess and um there is come there comes maybe a thought or or whatever, a picture or whatever, which brings me in the right now, in the here, then I feel like uh wow, what the present um that it takes me. But um I guess it's the same that um I'm not the doer of this, so I I have just to trust, or maybe I have just the wish to recognize what is right now, and then life already take uh give give what it will give, you know, you know, it makes it makes sense what I well what what's what's already here is what life is giving. Yeah and the relationship with that would maybe I don't like this, but as soon as I'm here this is happening, I notice that it can be it can be acknowledged, and it's it's also just uh to take me out of the doership that I feel like yeah, but I have to recognize and I have to um to be right now to see uh there is the mess going on, but I'm also not the doer which stops me to see what is here right now.

Ilona 1:01:18

Yeah, it's it's the narrative about the doer that is trying to get out of the doing. It's the story about me who's trying to get out of the story about me when it's seen then you can ask this one magical question is this helping? This question should be you know everywhere through the day. Is this helping? How is this helping? If it's helping, then how and what I have to see in it or yeah, then you just check maybe it is, maybe it is not. But when you recognize that it is not, something happens or something stops happening, in other words. It's a very powerful thing to stop and check. Is it helping? For example, for example, waking up at night, having all these thoughts going about I don't know what will happen next week, or I haven't paid the bill, oh my god, I missed the deadline or something. It's just racing thoughts. It's no way to stop it, right? You can have your tricks and do whatever you do to to calm the mind down. But what if you just stay there for a little bit and say, Is this helping? How is this helping? Because the mind wants to help. It's like, oh, you forgot about this. You haven't done that. Hey, you should be. But is this helping?

Speaker 1 1:03:10

Oh when we had our meeting and you talked to me like this, and then some days later there came a late a letter which uh brought my nerve system, you know, in in stress. So then also I had this these thoughts in the night and to think about this um appointment. And then I was also like what what um I mean I said it in different words, but finally, yeah, what what is this helping? And then I just calmed down until the appointment was, and the appointment was just as it was.

Ilona 1:04:02

It was really very helpful. Thank you, Ilona, so much. Thank you. Daniel and Elena. I don't know who's first.

Speaker 4 1:04:23

We have to make like a secret sign, okay? If I if I talk too much during the things, I always feel like I'm but I'm so excited when I want to talk. And I had to since school I was the guy always like teacher, teacher, so sorry, it's too much. You make like you make like a secret sign, okay? Then I will I'll I'll I'll shut up. Um because I'm into it, into it, I'm trying to understand, right? Like what have the power, right? Like who is understanding? And who what can I do for me? Um bit of uh I don't know, expensive contracts, what is sometimes for me? It's always like am I like biting into something or is it like can I let go of it? Can I can I like just relax into whatever is happening? This is this is for me like the action of letting go of control or something, I could say. But I'm not a duo of that, right? Am I who's doing that? But is it still a valid strategy until I find out that it's not me? This is basically my question. Is that the exercise? Is that what I should continue doing, which I'm gonna do anyway because I like it. But um or am I on the wrong track, basically is my question. Is that strongly related, uh lightly related, or not related?

Ilona 1:05:49

I would say that the who question, if it's still alive, the who question will keep popping up. The who question requires a subject. I mean somebody else. Somebody. Anyone. Then who presupposes that there is somebody? If the whole question is seen through, meaning that you see it is just a part of language, it's not part of actuality, then it stops arising. Like do you ever ever say who's rainy? Who's making this cloud rain? You don't. Because it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 4 1:06:31

But I should not still continue that, right? Whoever should still continue, no?

Ilona 1:06:37

Question the who question itself. Pull the card out of that one and the rest will fall.

Speaker 3 1:06:46

Okay.

Ilona 1:06:51

Is it the right question?

Speaker 4 1:06:54

That's the question, huh? Is it the right? What's the right question? Interesting.

Ilona 1:07:00

Is who question helping?

Speaker 4 1:07:03

No, no, I'm just saying like this is like a paradox. But my real question is, is this letting go, is this the right business? Like just like when I go into tension and I lose my touch with being awareness, basically, and being an awareness and being present with the moment. Like this letting go moment when I say what do you say, breeze? And I return to the present. That's that's the thing, right? Is that is that's my instructions right now? Is that what I should practice? You think?

Ilona 1:07:36

Yeah, and back to what just being, being here. I'm here. Um I'm present and everything's moving, everything's happening. And then I'm on the line.

Speaker 4 1:07:47

Then I'm I'm the line or part of the line with the line, horizontal line, and out of the cloud, maybe, yeah?

Ilona 1:07:54

Yes.

Speaker 4 1:07:56

That's great.

Ilona 1:07:57

I'm here. I'm gonna do that more often.

Speaker 4 1:07:59

That's amazing. Thank you very much.

unknown 1:08:02

Okay.

Speaker 3 1:08:03

Thank you.

Ilona 1:08:04

Okay. Oh, Elena, please. Okay. All right. Um David.

Speaker 3 1:08:21

Hi. Uh yeah, just uh quick question. Uh what is the place of uh something like uh morality and uh personal responsibility? Because it it feels I think there is still some fear of like um becoming a bad person from the point of view of the outside world, because when when I'm here, like morality and responsibility and these are just concepts, okay? So uh but but they are needed to live in society because uh like otherwise it would be like anarchy or chaos, or so what's the role of responsibility, personal responsibility of morality in this process? Because like these like seem like very relative concepts, like things that belong to the mind and to the story, but they are like needed there is a fear of like letting go this kind of concepts.

Ilona 1:09:34

So I I I okay when you I know that Jesus when you move in life, do you move from the place of what feels right? Or do you move from the place to what feels wrong?

Speaker 3 1:09:51

Yeah, but uh sometimes and I I know that uh there is no real really a choice, you know, because uh there is no one choosing, and there is uh just conditioning and stuff happening, and uh like morality is built upon the concept that we have free will and choice and in in this in this uh from here there's no one uh really choosing, and there is no one really really choosing left or right, and so morality but these are just thoughts about a choice.

Ilona 1:10:34

But when you are moving in life, like an actual situation, do you move from the place that feels right or from a place that feels wrong? Like, do you always do something that feels right?

Speaker 3 1:10:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ilona 1:10:49

Yeah, everyone else has we all move from what feels right. Um for some people one thing feels right, for another one something else, depending on conditioning and all the culture and everything, right? But the responsibility is to your own kin and knowing what is right, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:11:11

Uh but again, if there is no one knowing, or there is no possibility of knowing, because maybe there is still some fear of like falling into nihilism and like uh this way of living uh where uh okay there is here and there is all this, and it happens, and uh it's seen, but uh like when you live uh in the body with other bodies in a society in the relative world, there is the fear that uh living from uh from uh from uh from this like from outside the mind. It's like living uh without morality, without uh okay.

Ilona 1:12:07

But morality is the thing of ahead, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:12:11

But this there is the this knows what's right.

Ilona 1:12:15

Your heart knows what's right. Living from the heart, you don't need rules how to behave, you know deeply what is right, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:12:24

And then there's the mind that says, no, the heart doesn't know, the heart is unhinged, the heart uh the mind knows what's wrong and what's right. The mind has morality. So if you live outside the mind, you will live without morality.

Ilona 1:12:41

True.

Speaker 3 1:12:44

It doesn't make sense from outside, it doesn't make sense from from from from here, from here now, outside time, outside uh the mind, outside the story. But in the story, yeah, you need morality, you need concepts of morality, of right and wrong, of in order not to be a bad person, and so that there is like this this fear of of uh abandoning right and wrong uh morality and uh the moral compass of being a good person. There is there is the the the the belief that this only exists if if there is the concept of morality of right and wrong. I know that it's a story, but there's like fear, fear of letting it go because there needs to be like some trust uh in in in the heart, as you say.

Ilona 1:13:37

Yeah, yeah. But these are the things coming up for you to be examined and to be seen and to be entangled.

Speaker 3 1:13:45

Yeah.

Ilona 1:13:46

Right. So the mind says you need these rules superimposed by other people in order to fit and not be in banned. But the heart knows what is right. It doesn't need rules, there is in a knowing what is right. So who is the authority? Where is the authority?

Speaker 3 1:14:13

Yeah, you're gonna be able to do it. Or do you something no no uh yeah for for for this uh body-mind uh complex uh I think it's uh it's quite safe, but uh then I think yes, yeah, but then the mind thinks uh yeah, but this can't be like a universal way of living because other people might be different from this, other bodies might be more inclined in doing bad stuff, and so using this as I don't know, it's it it's it's uh it's the mind that goes on a tangent.

Ilona 1:15:04

That's your little mess that wants to get entangled.

Speaker 3 1:15:07

Yeah, yeah.

Ilona 1:15:08

That's free because you're not responsible what other people do.

Speaker 3 1:15:11

It takes also like uh some kind of courage because like you need a lot of yeah, there is no one really letting go, but like you really feel exposed, naked, uh like being uh being uh lived through by everything. I don't it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it feels like everything is exposed, and so you're being lived, there is no one being lived, but everything goes through, passes through the body, and passes through, and there is nothing stopping it from passing through this body, and uh so it's like uh everything is exposed, everything is naked, and uh yeah, so so thoughts like this come up because uh there is the mind needs to to protect itself, and yeah, yes, and no. Sorry if I'm being very confused in my questions, but uh this is where it is it's uh right now. So right now right now it's like that, so I don't know.

Ilona 1:16:22

That's that's cool, because as soon as you speak it, you see it.

Speaker 3 1:16:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and every time I speak about this this uh stuff, these doubts, they they kind of reveal themselves for what they are. So it's like uh I'm exposing the dirty laundry in public.

Ilona 1:16:42

Wonderful. Yeah, thank you for that.

Speaker 3 1:16:46

Thank you, thank you.

Ilona 1:16:58

And I want to thank you everyone for being here, for holding space, for speaking, for sharing, for laughing, for drawing the lines. Until next time.