The Idea That Started All the Seeking with Sabina Witzel

There is a particular kind of loneliness in believing you are in here, and everything else is out there. Most of us carry that feeling for years without ever asking where it came from, or whether it was ever true.

In this episode of Awakening Now, I'm speaking with Sabina Witzel, a German awakening guide and author who has spent years supporting people through the awakening process. Early in our conversation, I ask Sabina what awakening actually means to her, and she offers something simple that stays with you: "awakening to me is like closing the gap."

Together, we spend real time in direct pointing and self-inquiry, searching for the actual line between inside and outside, self and world, the illusion of a separate self most of us never think to question. Sabina describes what she found when she looked closely: "there was no dividing line, there was just an idea, like inside, outside. There is no line in experience." Near the end, she says it even more plainly: "all of it is just an idea, all of it."

This conversation may speak to you if you've had a glimpse of this seeing but still feel the old sense of separation returning, or if you're drawn to nonduality and direct inquiry but want it explored simply, without unnecessary jargon.

You can find Sabina at www.sabina-witzel.com/en

Music by Valdi Sabev. In loving memory and gratitude for the music he shared.

Transcript

Ilona 0:00

You may think that awakening is about closing the gap between you and the world. But it's more about seeing that the gap was never there to begin with. You are listening to Awakening Now, a podcast for those in the process of awakening. This is episode 132. The idea that started all the seeking with Sabina Vitza. My name is Ilona Ciunaite. I am guide, author, and co-creator of Liberation Unleashed. And for over 14 years I have been guiding and supporting seekers in discovering peace and freedom through self-inquiry and direct experience. At the heart of this conversation is a simple question What is the actual line between you and everything else? And where did that idea come from in the first place? My guest Sabina Vitza is a teacher and guide who has spent years sitting with people through the awakening process. And early in our conversation, I ask her what awakening actually means to her. And she offers something simple that stays with you long after you hear it. In our conversation, we go looking for that line together in direct pointing in real time. We explore what's actually found when the idea of a separate self is looked at closely rather than simply believe. If you have carried a quiet sense of separation for years, wondering where it was ever true, I think this conversation will speak to you. Let's begin. A very, very warm welcome. And today my guest is Sabina Witzel. I'm so happy to meet you. Thank you for showing up.

Sabina 2:03

Thank you very much, Ilona. I'm thrilled to be here.

Ilona 2:07

Wonderful. Um if you don't know Sabina, she's been a teacher, a guide, helping people through the awakening process for many years now. She also wrote a big book in German. And she lives in Germany. She's been doing this work for many years. So she has a lot of experience, and we're gonna have a very interesting conversation. So um and to start with, I asked everyone since we are on Awakening Now podcast, what is your definition of awakening? What are we talking about?

Sabina 2:49

Yeah. Uh the easiest and the hardest question. And if you'd asked me uh through the decades, I would have given you different answers. And uh, but I'd say, first of all, it's not um a state, it's not a one-time thing, it's not a thing where you arrive at and you know, fixate or whatever. And um, it's highly individual, actually. So um, and if if I'd answer it now, I'd say uh awakening to me is like closing the gap. And what I mean by that is like there is this idea of a separate self, of separation, of trying to make a distance, for example, the gap between me and others, or between subject-object, or um now and then, you know, time, or here and there, or an inside and an outside, you know, all these gaps, or like uh the background consciousness and whatever appears and uh what is and what I think it should be, and closing all these gaps to me is um awakening, or rather seeing that there were never really gaps, that this was just an idea from the beginning. Yeah, yeah, and then you you just end up in life as it is, as it always was, yeah. Uh unseparable and just uh a web of like interdependency and and uh yeah, effortless and and natural in in a way. So that that would be my definition nowadays.

Ilona 4:40

That's unique. I never heard that before, but I'm fully uh with you, I guess. Yeah. And would you like to share a little bit about your own process? I could maybe uh not like a whole story, but most pivotal moments or most um biggest shifts or whatever comes to mind at this point.

Sabina 5:10

Okay. Uh yeah, so I've been on this path alone. So I didn't have a teacher, a tradition, a guide. And I would say for the first couple of years, I had no idea this had to do with awakening. I had no idea what this was about at all. I just felt like I had booked the roller coaster. It was quite wild, right? And I there were lots of times where I thought I'm going insane because like what is this all about? I have no idea. And um, and uh I realized how important context is. So when when we moved here to where I live now in southern Germany, I met friends who were Buddhists. And when I shared my experience there, they nodded. And I was really like amazed, do you understand what I'm talking about? And they gave me the context. And so I started realizing, oh, wait a minute, this this is an awakening process. And so it was in retrospect then seeing what had happened because I could I had no framework for that. And um, I would say one very major shift was um just I was sitting for a natural meditation. I'm not an a meditator at all, you know. I just thought, okay, let's sit down and just be. And there was like this uh this field uh coming down, anchoring into the body, and suddenly their all separation was gone. You know, there was no borders, no boundaries, no inside, outside, up and down, and um no center in a way. So I I didn't know what that was. Uh I saw it as a uh grid-like structure, transparent. So I'm an energy healer with the clairvoyant senses, so I this was always very visual, and so um yeah, I I had no idea what that meant, and I was too stubborn to ask someone, which has a backstory, of course. Um, but I wanted to find out myself what this was, and uh what happened then is that I I actually made myself jobless because uh working as an energy healer, I was like channeling channeling energy from above through the body, through the hands to someone else. But now, if you don't have like boundaries of a body, you don't have like me and other, you have no above, and there's not even energy any longer, what to do? So I started experimenting, you know, and and trying to find out what that was. So that was a very big shift. Yeah, sounds like and the the for example the boundaries of the body never came back, so that was just gone.

Ilona 8:14

And um I saw that let me just stop you here. You still walk through the doors, not bumping into the frame. Are you yeah?

Sabina 8:23

Well, I try to not, yeah. Yeah, so the sense of like the the image that we modulate onto uh the sensations to create like like the idea of a body, so that that was just gone, you know.

Ilona 8:37

Oh, you mean the image in the mind of the body? Yeah, that's interesting.

Sabina 8:44

And so there was not a sense of like here the body ends and there the room uh starts, you know, there was just one seemingless sensation in a way, yeah, and still is, yeah.

Ilona 9:01

And yeah, it's it's always interesting for me trying to describe these things, putting it into words, and it may seem something um fascinating, but really just so ordinary.

Sabina 9:14

Yes, yeah, in the end it is actually, whatever is comes up, it's like, oh wow, there is a distinct before and after, and it might quite might be quite extraordinary, but then you know, once that sinks in, at least that's my experience, it's like no, wait a minute, this has always been like that, and it's actually quite normal. Yeah, and uh I saw that uh a couple of months ago you uh talked to Pierce Alguero and his multi-double. Yes. So I came across his map, uh, I think to and him about two years ago, and um I was curious if I would take his threads of awakening, his perspectives on this process process and modulate them on my process when looking back, if that would fit. And it did. So I can also talk about the shifts from the threads perspective, which is just different perspectives of how someone can experience awakening. And um I'd say from the threats perspective, before this really big shift, there had been other shifts. In my early 20s, I had a kundalini awakening, so which is the energy thread and speaks of itself, and then um in my late 20s, I had during an energy session, I was receiving one. I had an heart awakening, so there was like this everything is one, everything's love, and then there was like this big shift that I just talked about, which had more, I'd say, an emptiness touch, but was mixed with energy and a little flavor of oneness. So it was already a little mixture of several, and in between there was uh a three-year-long dark night of the soul, where I really my life, all the pillars of my life, they they crumbled, and I fell into a really long darkness and again no one to talk to, and I didn't know if if anyone could help me, and I actually wasn't sure if I would get out of it alive, and so I'd say that was like the waking up of the shadow, which is the uncont the psychic thread. So um I can find all these you know perspectives in in the path, and of course they all have their shifts and they become non-dual at one point, and then they reach their peak, and then at one point you let them go, you know, because they no longer needed to describe or as an extra how you experience everyday life. So yeah.

Ilona 12:21

So you had your experiences, then you found the the model, and then you looked back and put everything like on your path corresponding to these threads, and then it dropped away.

Sabina 12:36

Yeah, the dropping had already happened, or was it the process of, but now I had like context, I had an explanation that seemed um fitting, and it was actually quite. I made peace with this rather dynamic and really all over the place process. So so they came afterwards, you know, the map came afterwards, yeah.

Ilona 13:04

It's more like orienting where I am, where I've been, rather than looking at the map. I need to go here, here, and there and there. And how to get there. Yeah, that makes sense.

Sabina 13:15

Yeah. And I now find it just helpful when talking to people when I feel like they uh they would like some context or they would like some orientation where they at, or what would what could be a next step, or uh what is just natural in them, you know, trying having someone who has this uh tendency towards heart opening or already had and tell uh a person to then deconstruct into emptiness just would wouldn't make any sense and probably wouldn't take him anywhere, you know. So just seeing where someone is at, what the natural tendencies are, and then giving maybe some context if needed. And for that, I really find it extremely helpful. Yeah. Nice.

Ilona 14:08

Um, what about the fetters model? Do you use that too?

Sabina 14:13

Yeah, so the fetters are uh are an emptiness thread approach, of course. And uh I came across the fetters uh shortly after the subject object uh had collapsed, and uh I had met Buddhist friends, and I I finally knew this was a world awakening. So I started searching the internet for uh Buddhism, but it wasn't it was clear that I would not become a Buddhist, you know, that I wouldn't go through all the motions and do all the you know whatever rituals and mantras or whatever. I'm just not the type for that. So and I came across the fetters by uh Christiane Mikelberger and she mentioned her guide, uh Kevin Chandelek, and I looked into them, but at that point, again, the process didn't quite fit. I hadn't found a map that was really fitting, so they fell aside, and then when that field of awareness that I was in for about like 10 years suddenly dropped, and there was like no sense of existence of I or a perceiver or I'm awareness or consciousness or whatever any longer. And that was so radical as to for it was before, and I just thought, okay, let's look at the fetters again. And then I uh uh contacted Christiana and asked her to uh have a look at uh where the process is at and help me, you know, pull out the weeds. And uh she said uh it was like the ninth and tenth feather. So, but I told her, go no, give me all the feathers, you know, give me all the inquiries. I want to stay start at fetter one, because I had been going alone, and uh, of course, with everything, we can bullshit each other, you know, and uh just you know make up stuff, and uh so I actually went through all the feathers uh with her, and I really like that approach as well. If you're more like into inquiry, that's a great uh way to do it. But for people who are more like um into, for example, um loving kindness or surrender or energy practices, this is probably not a good fit. So again, it's it's not a one fits all, it's just finding out what fits the individual. So yes, I'm aware of of the fetters, long answer.

Ilona 17:01

That's cool.

Sabina 17:02

Yeah, yeah, very helpful too. Um, it all has its its um pros and cons. I mean, if you're a type that needs structure, that wants to know what is the next step, where exactly do I look at? It's a stage-based model, a stepwise model, that's perfect. But your process is more fluid, and you just uh do-it-yourself type, and you don't want anyone to tell you what to do next, uh, because you want to just keep an open exploration, you don't want to do fixed inquiries or whatever, um, then the threads, the multi-dharma is probably more um appealing. Yeah.

Ilona 17:52

It's great to know there are all these options. Yes, luckily.

Sabina 17:58

Yeah.

Ilona 18:00

That's interesting. I'm listening to you and thinking about I I haven't followed any maps. For me, personally, it's what comes up. If something comes up, I'll meet it. Um all in but um I don't go out and trying to fit my experience in descriptions because I just don't need that. But somebody else may need that, and it's wonderful to have these um tools.

Sabina 18:30

Yeah, and you mentioned something very important when there's a tendency in someone, for example, uh to try to squeeze into a map to make yourself fit into a map, although your process is running differently. This can really create also crisis. So uh yeah, so being with just what's happening is is a great way to do it, you know. It's very natural. Yeah, absolutely.

Ilona 18:56

Yeah, because otherwise, you know, we can read about other people's ideas and experiences and think that this is how it should be, and that's why the seeking is so sticky because mostly it's not, or it never is, but yeah, you can find something that resonates, you can find something that uh you can recognize that, but it's never uh clear-cut picture how it should be.

Sabina 19:21

Yes, absolutely, yeah.

Ilona 19:26

There's no how it should be at all.

Sabina 19:29

No, exactly. That's why it's so individual, and I'm more like you. Uh, I was never following any tradition or path or whatever, and uh yeah, that were that's why it was so dynamic because of all the different dimensions or flavors of awakening or threat, whatever you want to call it. And uh, but I could also, which is another topic that I I really love, is I could also describe my process as uh when I was in this dark night of the soul, and all the really, really deep and unwanted, unseen material was coming up, and I didn't want to see anyone to talk about this. And there was just this natural unfolding of how can I be with all this without resistance, without creating a gap, without making distance to it. Um, no judgment, no resistance. And what I realized then is that everything that was met like that just self-liberated. And uh so to me, this is another aspect that is part of my work, is like bridging, awakening, and healing the core wound. And and to me, the core wound, many people have talked about the core wound. To me, the core wound is the the uh the deepest, darkest shadow, uh where we seemingly fall out of oneness. There you have like the gap again, and which creates like a pain, a wound, a wounding. And to me, the core transforming or healing or meeting the core wound is like um seeing through a separate self but on an emotional, energetic, and somatic level. And so um it's it's I would say it's a deep shadow work. And when I put that as a lens on my uh path, I would say yes, it was uh an awakening in the shadows, um, a meeting the core wound, and then uh what went into the process. Process was not the same that went out, came out. What came out was stripped of identity, of separation, of resistance, and uh was just deeper than woundings, deeper than um any separation. So I feel that that this also can be a path of awakening and healing at the same time.

Ilona 22:30

Yeah, I am with you because awakening and healing the walk walk together. It's not like what people imagine that once I'm awakened, I don't need to feel uncomfortable feelings, I don't need to look inside, it's all going to be wonderful. Yeah, then surprise, surprise, it's all still here.

Sabina 22:54

Absolutely. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that because uh I rarely hear that that people say like they find awakening and healing on the same page. So I'm re I really love that that you mentioned that.

Ilona 23:11

Yeah, but this is this is what I do. I have two streams like of work, which is pointing to no self, through the direct pointing and asking questions and inquiring, seeing through the door, seeing through all these uh identities and identification of what's going on until it's clear. But after that, what's next is you still feel something contracted, or you still feel this conditioning or reactivity, or what's going on here. It's everything still here. Maybe after a lot of honeymoon, or you know, everything is sweet and wonderful for a while, it may be, but then it just everyday life is just showing up more intensely than ever before.

Sabina 24:03

Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, perfect. So same here, two streams that kind of like intertwine, and uh as you said, like uh everyday life is just is just there, you know, and there's no what I've found that there is no longer the ability to mitigate that, to to step back from it, to twist and turn or tweak, you know, at whatever's arising, you know, and also not the need to do that. And so you're just being with what is full on, no distance.

Ilona 24:47

Yeah, and it's actually difficult to even think how you used to be because if I if I try to think how it used to be before, I have to wait for the mind to come up with some kind of story, and it's just like really to be honest, I don't know, it's gone.

Sabina 25:08

So yeah, yeah, that's that's amazing. I've I feel the same awakening then and all these memories before, and also like the shifts and all that, they become a faint memory. And if I don't talk about them because I'm asked, it's nothing I could find or I'd be even interested in, because it's just everyday life, and uh yeah, but while it happened, it of course it was significant, and something did happen, and uh, but yeah, then you just like with everything, it's a fainting story, yeah.

Ilona 25:48

Totally, yeah, and there is no more grip on that story, so it doesn't really matter, yeah, yeah. It's not like my precious, my story. I remember that one now, you know, that my story, and you would keep saying some stuff, how it was, and what happened, and how I felt, and yeah, that's somehow well, it may come up sometimes, but it's so rare that wow, surprise, surprising.

Sabina 26:18

Yeah, so that might be surprising. People will probably have heard that from you a lot, but those who hear it the first time, it might be surprising to hear that awakening is not something you will keep, it's not something that you can you know stick onto a no-self or whatever and say, like, yeah, I'll keep this state this, whatever achievement, or it's nothing to keep, it's a it's a process, and then it's normal again.

Ilona 26:54

Yeah, actually, it's quite dangerous to meet somebody who says, Oh, I'm awake, I'm enlightened, now I'm there, you know, listen what I'm saying. It can be quite dangerous.

Sabina 27:10

Yeah, from what I heard from um from Pierce's sharings is that there are actually traditions that that focus on stabilizing, you know, uh uh very at the at the deep end of the threads, you know, like being in this state 100% all of the time. So kind of like fixating an end state. And uh yeah, but then there are other traditions like Zen, for example, who like show you end up back in the marketplace and uh just you know carry water. A shop would carry water, you know. And uh I really I really like that that this is also being shared, and people get to hear that, you know, it's it's nothing you can you can keep and there's no need to.

Ilona 28:01

Yeah, yeah, it's like daily life is happening, you don't need to think about awakening or some future gratifications or something needs to happen for me to be okay. I'm okay now. And unless unless I'm sitting down and talking to somebody about awakening or guiding somebody, then yes, that's the topic. But it's not something that even comes to mind when I'm feeding cats or having a walk or just washing dishes or something.

Sabina 28:42

Yeah, tending my wet vegetables in the garden, so it really just doesn't come up. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so some for some people that's quite a a down downer, you know, like uh I thought I'd I'd end up in in endless bliss and whatever forever without any problems. And um yeah, so they they might then think like, so what why should I even embark on a journey like this? This if I don't you know achieve this or that. Yeah, well, it's nothing you can have. Uh on the other hand, I find if there is like a real urge, if there's some fire force or whatever that's driving this process, whatever this process is, uh, I wouldn't also try to tell people don't do it, you know, don't embark on this journey. So if there is really a fire, I'd say uh tend it, you know, and and follow, follow the breadcrumbs wherever they take you. Yeah.

Ilona 29:51

I remember that one, the fire.

Sabina 29:55

Yeah.

Ilona 29:57

It was big fire.

Sabina 30:02

Same here. And and whatever that is, I mean, we we could philosophize about this, but you know, it I don't have it, I have an idea what that is, this fire. But at one point it was totally clear that it was without option. There was no stepping back, you have no hand on any steering wheel, something bigger or whatever has taken over, and uh you you better go with the flow or surrender to that or whatever, you know, feels natural. So at one point where my where before it might have felt like, well, I can I can say yes to it or no to it, it's just no longer an option, at least how how it was here, you know.

Ilona 30:51

Yeah, when that when the fire comes in and you want to know the truth or what you are, it has to complete itself to play itself out.

Sabina 31:02

Exactly. Yes.

Ilona 31:04

So, which is really good news because if you are in the process, trust the process. There's it's happening.

Sabina 31:13

Yes, yes, and and then uh what I find interesting when talking to people who have come from very different arenas, very different traditions, and um if they gone through the feathers or released threads or whatever they've done, it sounds all very similar. So that's what I find interesting. So whatever fire seems to be doing its magic, you know, it knows the way. And um yeah, it turns out to be fine, although it can feel quite challenging along the way. Uh, it was here, and then it will turn out fine. So, yes, trust the process and uh it will be fine and bumpy and scary, and wonderful, and oh yes, and and beautiful, and everything in between, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I haven't I haven't really answered the question about all the different shifts, but you know, um that would be like a an evening-filling uh topic. So let's just say the gen in a in a general uh sense, um, there can be glimpses here and there, and um they might feel like they're happening to me, and they are happening here, I'm having this or that awakening experience, I'm having a kundalini awakening, I'm having a heart awakening or whatever. And then when the process or the thread uh uh continues, this becomes more impersonal and less localized, I would say. And then at one point the this ultimate gap of like subject and object will will collapse and it becomes really non-dual, then. And then um, you know, the different flavors of like time, space, if we look at it from the federal perspective, can fall away. And then at one point, um, even the one who is experiencing energy, emptiness, oneness, or whatever uh is seen through and disappears. And so there's just no one, nothing able to stand apart from sound sensation or whatever. So, whatever flavor the viewer's awakening has, this is, I would say, a common theme that uh will come up, probably not in a linear phase, but uh in the end it will boil down to that. I don't know how what do you think about this? So can we generate generalize it like that, or how do you how do you see this?

Ilona 34:34

I think it's uh complicated to generalize it because it's just an idea.

Sabina 34:40

Yes, of course.

Ilona 34:42

And of course, and if somebody is listening and already picking up ideas, because from the seeker perspective, whatever whatever is being seen on any videos of people talking about this is is how it should be. Or this is what I'm aiming for, this is what I'm looking for. Um but it's always here in experience, so generalizing uh from my perspective is never helpful, it's more what's true for you in your own experience. Yes, yes, and it doesn't matter what's going on for other people, whatever maps they are drawing, or whatever experiences they are describing, it's true for them. But the thing is, what is here, and that is enough, and this is exactly right, and you're right in the right place, and you're okay, and what's here, yeah, yeah.

Sabina 35:39

Thank you for bringing it up. It's a real danger to first of all take this as like this is how it should be for me, and turn it into a fixed state or territory or whatever. Uh, I'd rather see it as if someone is right now um unsure of where to orient to or whatever. Um you could, for example, if we take my metaphor of like closing the gap, you could have a look at like right now with how I'm here, am I creating distance, for example?

Ilona 36:19

Um can we go with something concrete? Because I think that would be helpful for whoever is watching. Uh this um a sense of separate self, yes, because this is at the core of the whole thing. If there is a sense of separate self, I am separated, it's not being seen as um as a sensation or as an idea or as a contraction, it's being seen as I'm separate. So how do you work with that? Let's let's play with this.

Sabina 36:53

Okay, how do I work with that? Yeah, I would at first I would have them find the difference between what they are thinking, what is happening, and what is really happening. So bringing them back to the body and what is being experienced right now, and what then seeing what the mind adds to that as an interpretation, as an analysis or meaning making, and by that, and feeling the difference of like how does it feel to really experience, for example, uh drinking their cup of tea? Yeah, great. So just what is actually being experienced and what is being added by thought. And does that experience feel different when just it when just when there's just the taste and the touch of the of the glass and the the taste of the tea and the smell of the peppermint or whatever it was? And and how does it feel experiencing that plus all the narrative? I'm drinking a cup of tea, this is the cup of my grandmother, uh, I like this tea because I don't like it because you know, all the add-ons, and if that feels different, and once they feel a different difference, it's easier to see how much the mind actually adds to what is what is here, what exp what is being experienced. And then in the next step, just seeing that um these are just ideas, they're just concepts, just thoughts and nothing else. It's it's and actually it's not even remotely close to what is being experienced. It's just it's a fantasy, you know. And so I see this as a first step of like disidentifying with thoughts or the need to believe in thoughts, um, and to grab thoughts and to follow them, you know, and and act on them, and creating a creating a uh a useful gap, you know, uh, between what is happening and what what is the mind adding.

Ilona 39:32

Yeah.

Sabina 39:34

So that would be would be an entrance, I would say. And then depending on where someone is uh in the process, um just seeing what is what feels fixated, what feels tense, is uh is there an identity around built around the feeling that is in the body, you know, and and when I zoom into the body and up close to the sensation, is there really a me experiencing that, for example, or and all these things. So there's uh there's neat uh explorations that can be done, which are more like the emptiness thread, I would say. Or if if that's not the cup of tea of someone listening. For example, if I would ask someone, uh, where do you where do you sense the the feeling of of this is me? And very often people have like um a place in the body, like the forehead or the heart or the gut or whatever.

Ilona 40:41

Most of course behind the eyes, isn't it?

Sabina 40:44

Behind the eyes, yes. Someone here looking out, and of course, you could then zoom in and see is there really uh uh an eye in the sensation, it's the emptiness thread, I would say, but you could also like zoom in there and then see is this an area that is more dense, like other areas in the head, and it probably is, it feels more contracted, and then seeing sensing, it's more like a sensing exploration. Is there really a separation between the spot that is five inches next to it and this area? Do you really find like a border? Do you really find a separation in there? And then seeing, do you really find a separation between the border of the body that you might be experiencing and the space surrounding you? And so this is more like an oneness thread approach, like on a sensing level, finding and experiencing that there is actually no border or separation anywhere. And this often opens up into a sense of expansion. Um many people uh land in awareness, you know, like this open space in which all of this is happening. Of course, this is not the end, but it's a good stop. It's a it's a stop along the way. So so you could explore like that as well, uh, if you're not into the into the um emptiness inquiry, for example. Yeah. Um just thinking if I could come up with something on the energy thread. Yeah. Uh if there's the sense of like me is is a contraction, there's something in the body or the whole body as is a is a contraction, or is like a subtle pushing against something that I don't want that is too overwhelming, or a pulling into like a safe space or whatever. Um, again, starting with like going to direct experience in the body, and then seeing uh what I'm experiencing there as a tension, as a as something fixed, something seemingly unchangeable, as a I that is constantly existing. Is this really static? Is this really uh not dynamic and coming to it from an energetic level for someone who already has, like, for example, a natural tendency of feeling energies in the body, feeling energies outside the body, or even just energy fields or whatever. So an exploration like that. Be quite fruitful seeing everything that feels static and dense and fixed uh is a fixation actually, and is it really so, or is this also energy? Then it can be become very individual, uh, the exploration, you know, depending on what what tendency someone has, you know.

Ilona 44:26

Yeah, very nice. Yeah. Um, I think when I first approach that question, how do I know I'm separate? I mean, where where is the proof? Which which sensation informs me about something being separate or cut out or outside of life or outside somewhere? Like, where is that dividing line? And when I saw that there was no dividing line, it was just an idea. Like inside, outside is just an idea. There is no line in experience, and then this sense of separateness is is just a sense of sensation inside the experience. It was so funny to see that.

Sabina 45:22

Yeah, it's a great approach, yeah. It's a great question. Yeah. Yeah, and then what I what I like about all these different approaches is that you don't think about them. It's not about like, how am I making sense of that? It's not about intellectually understanding this, but really looking in your experience. Is that really true? Is that really there, or is it just an idea? And it's very interesting that actually all of it is just an idea, all of it. Only. And then at times it it's when you know, whole chunks of these ideas, this fixating like fantasies drop away, it can feel quite overwhelming. And I sometimes hear people like, I feel I I'm my my life, what what will happen? You know, will my life turn into chaos? You know, can I function if all of this is just thought and there's no no me in here? And and how will it function? And the funny thing is it always functioned on its own because it was just a fantasy. I mean, it's a good news. Yes, it's great news. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember one one uh one woman in in one of my workshops, she she had like, I would say, like the the mind just dropped out. It sounds funny, but I can't describe it differently. The the thinking mechanism just broke for for a moment, and it was just there and she was very identified with her thoughts. And she was stopping in her tracks and she was like, I didn't want that. How am I how am I gonna function? How will I go down the stairs, even? You know, and I said, just make a step, come towards me, just come here, and she made a step because she she, you know, I said, come here, and she just naturally made a step forward. And I said, That's how you get down the stairs, that's how you got down the stairs before, you know. So everything works fine, you know. Of course, at times, really, I must I must add that at times it it can feel dysfunctional, but um yeah, if if it's not too dragged out too long, it will very easily just you know integrate and and you find out yeah, even the idea this could not function was just an idea.

Ilona 48:14

So I had this um experience. I was walking down the road, and it's like a busy road, cars passing by, and I was really curious how is that this body is walking? I mean, you know, one leg, another leg, it's just walking. And I was contemplating that and just watching that, how it's working, and then suddenly I fell. I was like, ouch, but when I fell, I felt like I rolled a little, so I didn't hurt myself at all. It was just a little shock, like, oh, it can't forget how to walk, but it it knows how to roll, it knows how to fall, so it's all right.

Sabina 48:57

Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah, I mean, things like that can really happen. I remember when that when uh the center had dropped out, we were in a car with my husband, he was driving, luckily, because I could no longer say if I was sitting inside the car, beside the car, if the if I was if I was moving with the car, or if the other cars were moving through through me, or whatever, it was quite scary for a moment, and I was like, oh, okay, whatever that is. And so, you know, when these perceptual shifts happen, uh this can be quite um challenging and also fascinating, you know. And and uh that's one one part which uh I find this happening very often, not only the shifts in identity, that uh the idea I'm I'm a separate self changes, also like the perception changes depending on on the threads. If we talk about multi-dharma again, and um yeah, and also how you see the world changes uh depending on where you are in the process right now. So, and but that all will integrate and normalize and become like the new normal. So when someone is you know having a rough time driving, you know, or whatever, uh maybe yeah, drive carefully. Uh, I remember that uh I just I still today I have no sense of how fast I drive uh and of distance in in some way. Um I've always been a very cautious driver, driving rather slow. And since I don't have a sense of you know moving or speed or whatever, I when I look at how fast I'm going, I'm like, okay. So yeah, well, you get used to it. You just check the chrono, you you just check the the uh what do you call it? I don't know, and so you will be fine, you know, yeah. Or when the when the energy uh thread was very um very active, I had a few weeks of like blurred vision because everything that seemed static in the visual field started disintegrating and becoming energy. And I I was just it was just like dimensions interfacing with each other, or like light points or pixelating visions and all these things. And I went to the to the eye doctor and I said, something's wrong with my ears or with my eyesight, and she checked it and she said, No, actually, you you uh your sight is better than the last time you were here, you know. And so it was just a moment where like the energy thread started to dissolve everything into energy, and doing that with the senses, for example, and so this was blurred and and all that, so yeah.

Ilona 52:25

It doesn't need to happen to everyone though, I think. No, no, but you you you are like uh psychic or clairvoyant naturally, so yeah. How does that help working with people?

Sabina 52:39

Yeah, it helps, actually it helps, and funny thing is uh actually the the clairvoyant senses changed a lot and quite dramatically during the awakening process because um the shifts were also like visual in like uh I I sense and hear and smell and see and feel things. So um, for example, when the end when the emptiness thread was on top, for the first time in my life, my clairvoyant uh senses were black, there was nothing, even perception was black. So there was no inner seeing, there was no you know, uh dimension, you know, um other dimensional seeing or whatever, it was all gone, and it's the basis of my work. So again, I was without a job, and it actually, yeah, I did that a couple of times actually, and then um after I think this time it took almost two years, and then they came back in a different way now because all the frameworks that were needed, for example, I started uh before I was seeing everything transparent, everything was a field, the person was transparent, I could zoom in and zoom out, and uh, when the field fell away, said uh perception was black because it was the idea that it was it needed a field to be seen. And then when the clairvoyant seeing came back, it's right there, it's very immediate, it's it's I would say even more precise, but it no longer needs a field, for example. It no longer needs the meaning making or the ontologies or whatever, it's just something's coming up, it's seen, the body knows what to do, it's doing its motion when I work, and it works fine, you know. But in between, it was all gone, actually.

Ilona 54:54

Yeah, fascinating. It's such a mystery, isn't it? Yeah, try to describe it or try to pinpoint something and yeah, yeah, okay. We get a story, which is cool, but yes, now you describe this. I have no idea how that feels, and what can I do? Nothing.

Sabina 55:15

No, absolutely nothing. It's just like when people seem to experience something like that, for example, and they hear that it can be helpful, you know, and it can, you know, be giving necessary context so they can relax, you know, into whatever's there, and and yeah, so that that might be helpful. I think that's the helpful part about the stories.

Ilona 55:41

Yeah, yeah, because in stories we recognize something, a little bit of ourselves, and for some it resonates, for others it doesn't, it doesn't matter. But if if somebody's listening and they can hear what you shared and say, Oh, oh, I'm okay.

Sabina 55:59

Wow, yeah, uh huh.

Ilona 56:00

That's not right.

Sabina 56:02

Oh wow, yeah, I'm okay, I'm not out crazy, you know. Yeah, and they also hear like it will be fine, you know, and it is fine, yeah. Excellent, exactly, it is fine already wherever wherever you are.

Ilona 56:19

Maybe it seems like it's not fine, but you won't know. We don't need to listen to that voice in the head because it's just talking, it's been trained to talk something, anything, just fill the gap.

Sabina 56:29

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So it's it's um multifaceted, multi-dimensional, it's very colorful and very individual, and uh and like you said earlier, trust trust the process and uh yeah, see where it takes you.

Ilona 56:52

Yeah, okay, Sabina. Our hour is finishing. Um how can people find you and how do you work? Do you work with groups one-on-one? Retreats, what do you do?

Sabina 57:07

All of it.

Ilona 57:09

Yes.

Sabina 57:11

Yeah, you I have a website, uh Sabina uh dash, no, not dash minus witzel.com. Maybe you can put it in in the description. It's not a it's maybe a difficult name to type. Yeah, I I give uh one-on-one sessions in German and and in English, and um I do groups and uh also retreats. I'm um more expanding into like the online field because I've been largely working with people uh uh in person, a couple of last decades, but uh yeah, but now since um the word is spreading a little bit more, uh I'm also working like um online. So yeah, if anything resonates, I have a YouTube channel that you you can check out, German and English videos, and yeah.

Ilona 58:07

Wonderful.

Sabina 58:10

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Ilona 58:13

Thank you for joining me. It's such a pleasure, such a nice feeling to be with you. Thank you, yeah, thank you, and um thank you everyone for watching and for listening. And if you have questions, comments, please just leave a note and we'll get back to you. Um till next time. Bye now.