When the Last Illusion Fell, There Was Nowhere Left to Hide with Christiane Michelberger

What happens when the last illusion falls away, and it doesn't feel like peace?

In this conversation, Christiane Michelberger returns two years after her first appearance to talk about what actually happened when her final fetter fell away. Rather than the bliss she expected, she describes hours of disorientation, the sudden loss of a place to withdraw to when things got hard, before it resolved the next morning into something she calls relief.

We talk about the difference between direct pointing and direct experience as paths to seeing through illusion, why awakening doesn't mean the end of anger, fear, or being triggered, and why no teacher can transmit realization to another person. Christiane also shares a striking way of thinking about illusion itself, as a kind of hallucination, sensory experience without sensory input, and what it means to keep returning to what is actually here.

This one is for anyone who has had a glimpse and is quietly wondering what a fuller shift might cost.

Music by Valdi Sabev. In loving memory and gratitude for the music he shared.

Transcript

Ilona 0:01

Sometimes the shift doesn't feel like relief. Sometimes it feels like losing the one place you always knew you could hide. Welcome to Awakening Now, a podcast for those in the process of awakening. This is episode 135. When the last illusion fell, there was nowhere left to hide. With Christiana Michelberg, my name is Ilona Ciunaite. I am a guide, author, and co-creator of Deliberation Unleashed. For over 14 years, I have been supporting seekers in discovering peace and freedom through self-inquiry and direct experience. Christiane joins me for the second time. Two years ago, we spoke about seeing through the self-illusion and the fetters, and that conversation stayed with a lot of you. So we picked it up almost as if no time has passed. What happens after the last illusion falls away and it doesn't feel like bliss? What if the shift you've been hoping for actually costs you the one thing you didn't know you were relying on? Christiane has spent years working with Theravada tradition, guiding artists through direct pointing, and mentoring the guides who now do the work themselves. In this conversation, she talks honestly about what her own last shift actually felt like. We talk about the difference between direct pointing and direct experience, why awakening doesn't mean the end of anger or fear, and why no teacher can hand you their realization. Near the end, she offers a way of thinking about illusion itself that I think will stay with you. If you had a glimpse and quietly wonder what a foolish might actually cost you, I think this conversation will speak to you. Let's begin. A very warm welcome, Christiane Michelberger. Once again we're gonna have a conversation today.

Christiane 2:08

Thank you very much for having me again. It's really fun meeting with you again.

Ilona 2:13

Yes, and can you believe it's been two years since our last meeting? Yes, it was the time. Um, and the last time we spoke about how to see through the self-illusion and you shared about your your experiences and a little bit about the feathers. And something in that episode really resonated with people. So I w wanted to invite you again and to continue this conversation as if no time has passed.

Christiane 2:56

Yeah, um yeah, let's do it.

Ilona 2:58

Let's do it. Um changed in this um awakening scene or no no non-duality scene or the way that people are seeking or anything. Is it anything that you notice that is different these days like the current dead time?

Christiane 3:21

Uh when I started on my own journey, I wasn't really in the spiritual scene any longer. So I wasn't um in on what was going on much. So it was like I had given up basically. I thought, okay, this awakening thing probably won't happen during this lifetime. And that's why I don't know how I only knew about the Buddhist scene. I had started with Zen, so that was like my spiritual home tongue, mother tongue. And then I came to know the I had experienced states which nobody could explain to me, which were extremely blissful. And then I listened to lectures of a nun during a psychotherapy congress. They were a little bit like spiritually touched and always put a little touch to the Congress. And she talked about it was Ayakema, and she talked about the uh eight absorptions or jhanas, and that was exactly what I had experienced. And I thought, oh, there is somebody who knew about this and has described this, and it's even written down. Let's get into this. And that's when I started studying the Pali Kanon, which are the original, not the scriptures, but what uh the teachings of the Buddha. They were actually not written down until 300 years after, but three months after the Buddha died, the only the enlightened monks gathered and just told each other the stories they heard when the Buddha was teaching. And the others agreed or disagreed that this was a right story and then it was memorized by everybody. And the tradition of transferring memorized lectures in groups seems to be a very safe tradition for correct um moving, being staying correct moving forward, because the moment you say a wrong word you notice it because the others say another one, and so you can correct yourself. Each lecture begins with thus I have heard. That's why each lecture begins like that, and there it was all described, and I thought, well, and I got more into this, it's called the Theravada tradition, the oldest Buddhist tradition, but now it also usually consists only of rituals and prayers and chanting and work and um keeping the the monks keep their very, very strict rules and they continuously have to work on them. And for the lay people, it's like five suggestions ethic rules to uh practice, try to practice and keep them. It's not like you go to hell if you don't, it's like yeah, it's not so good if you do this because then your mind will be so confused that you can't really see clearly. Like if you intoxicate yourself with stuff or lie and uh take things that are not given to you, things like that. And so that was what I basically did, but nothing much else. And uh only when I had this breast cancer, I was like I was so completely out of my mind because of the fear I experienced, that I thought this Buddhist stuff didn't bring anything to you, and I couldn't use anything to calm myself. Like this thing to say to yourself is this isn't mine, this isn't me, this isn't myself. Yeah, great fun. But it doesn't do anything if you don't understand it, if you have not seen it for yourself. And so I thought, nah, I'm just spiritually asleepwalking here, that's all I'm doing. And I just turned my back to the exotic identity as a spiritual seeker, and that that's done. Now we need to find. I don't know how much longer I have to live. Yeah, and after all this time, I think there are basically um two ways people try to gain insight, and they are already existed at the times of the Buddha. So what does not help is doing trying kind of brainwashing yourself into awakening with this isn't me, this isn't mine, this isn't myself. I said it so often, hey, it no, it doesn't help.

Ilona 8:33

Okay. Well but but as you said, then it doesn't help if you do not see it.

Christiane 8:41

You do not see it. Yeah, but if you see it it's yeah, that's how it is. Yeah, that's just that. This isn't me, this isn't mine, this isn't myself. So um now how to get there. So brainwashing doesn't work. And I found that people use basically two methods. One of them is direct pointing. I came to know it through you. Directly pointing at the assumption we have or the illusion, and saying, okay, does this exist? Have a look. And that's the fast path. It's really the fastest path. And then there is another path which is direct experience, where you sink into the actual experience of something. So, like now, when I look out of the window, I see a green cherry tree. And if I just let myself sink into only receiving the colours, structure, shape, how the branches run, there will be a deep relaxation, and the tree fits very good, and it's good, it's no problem. The only problem is if you look for a self now, because in direct experience our assumptions are not there, but we will never land in direct experience forever. This is not possible for us, and so we cannot look into the illusion, whether into the assumption, whether, for example, the me exists or not. But already in the Buddhist scriptures, there was a very old monk, and he was sick, and the Buddha was residing somewhere close. And so some monks carried a message from him to the Buddha, and he walked through the first seven fetas, which he had all seen. He had seen that there was no me, and he had realized that design and will are illusions also, and the subject-object relationship, our feeling of having a relationship with everything else, which then in reverse makes us react to what we experience because we have this relationship, and and then the assumption that we actually perceive something from the outside, something substantial, which is not true. And so the monks always described exactly how that went, and then he said, and now there is still a sense of self-left, and it's like the scent of a rose. He described it so beautifully. And yes, this is the direct experience of the illusion, it's like a scent of the rose, but it's so subtle that if some people focus on the sense scent of a rose now to see whether it's an illusion, it will dissipate within seconds, and you can't work with it. So this is where direct experience already very early in the next step doesn't work any longer because the illusions are so much more subtle than the self. The self is really solid, and uh direct experience trying to see through the self will still take a long time if it happens at all. But um you can try, but I I wouldn't, I would always get to direct pointing. And I remember times I was guided by Kevin Shanilak and through the other fetters, and um sometimes I did go into direct experience because I was so exhausted from the other methods because it requires so much focus. And he said, You can do that, I don't mind, but it'll take much longer. Do you want that? I said, No, okay, so I just went back because it might take decades, you know. Like this monk was already in his 80s and hadn't seen through everything yet. So, yeah. And so I always in the end decided to go back and focus on the illusion itself. And for example, with such a subtle illusion, you don't focus on the illusion, you focus on the border of the illusion. Like, where does the scent of the rose end and the other start? Where's the border between the two? And then over time you find out, oh, there is no border. There are not two things, the other and I. Yeah, and this is the I that feels I exist. It's not the I that does. So that's very, very existential question. And it feels like that, like my life felt threatened. And I still remember, oh yeah, when when the when this last feta fell away, uh oh, I was really first it was pretty blissful, but then I realized the scope of it. For example, I was pretty traumatized. I suddenly had no place to withdraw into and to hide. It was gone. And I thought, I can't live like that. And there is a long rant in the LU group. I don't know, where many people wrote, and I thought Kevin wasn't in it, so I could write a rant. And I said, this is not what I wanted. This is not what I subscribe to. I know, yes, there is no me, this isn't mine, this isn't myself. But does it have to be so radical? Absolutely nothing, and that was heavy, and then somebody alerted Kevin and said, Do you know this person? This is what they're describing. And he said, Yes, I do, I'm guiding them. And then he came into the group. And you thought you could hide in the group, but he found what was happening. It was really that there was no hiding place for this scared little girl. And uh that was quite traumatic. It was, by the way, during the uh football championship, like today. Today will be football championship, football championship as well, and uh, we were watching a game, and my trouser muscles were um constricting as if they wanted to provide a shield against everything, so I could hide again. It was so touching. It went on for hours. Yeah, this game went into how do you call it when they played two half hours longer and then 11 meters shooting, and it went through all the steps, and I was like, all the time this went on until I went to bed. And the next morning I had some porridge, and when I was eating my porridge, I realized that there had never been a hiring price, and it was such a relief because I knew I had lost anything. It's like with anything, we never lost anything, but it that was big, that was really big. But as I said, direct looking will only let you notice, like there are in the first in the self-illusion, body sensations that feel like me. But if you just look at them, they won't just go away.

Ilona 16:43

Right. And it's only body sensations, isn't it?

Christiane 16:47

Yeah, and it's too early to look at the border because there are so many illusions still in place that the sense of self will always be triggered back. Like if somebody happens that we don't like, it's all right back. It was even that bad that I thought I hadn't seen through the self-illusion, though it had been such a clear shift and an unexpected shift. And uh I thought I got it back. And Kevin said, no, you didn't get it back. You're just looking at another aspect of the self now. So they're right, many aspects, yeah.

Ilona 17:27

Yeah, so fascinating. And um, are you still guiding people or working with people?

Christiane 17:33

Hello? I'm right now focusing on mentoring people because otherwise this work can't go on. We have a very good guide, Steffi, a German-speaking guide. She also speaks English very well now. She got real she got lessons, English lessons a lot with a life teacher, and so she knows really good in English too. And yeah, and she's good, but she needs support. She can't also can't do it on her own. It's not possible. We need people. So I help guides and every whichever feta they have seen through, they can start guiding in. Yeah. But with the guiding of the self-volution, completely rely on your method. Have a look at the self, find find the hiding place of the self. One hiding place doesn't matter which one. Question. I still teach that. That's that's the gold standard. Yeah. Yeah, that's really the gold standard. Yeah. And when I I don't know how long you guided on her, you I always say if you want to see a lunar guiding, go back to 2015-16 and read her dialogue. Just do it like her.

Ilona 18:53

Yeah, I I I stopped guiding on a forum, I don't know, a good few years back.

Christiane 18:59

Yeah, yeah.

Ilona 19:00

Just because I found a video. zoom, skype conversations that worked way much better for me. Right. Responses, life thing going on in direct. And uh after that, I tried to guide on a forum again, but it seemed like how did they do that? I have no idea how to do this again.

Christiane 19:27

Yeah, right, right. And I also encourage the new guides to just have a phone contact with their people or a video call because it really tells you so much more. Yeah, but still, yeah, I'm thinking of offering like twice a month something for people. I often get emails, I just want to clear up where I am, or things like that. And I can do that in an hour, so that would be a good thing to do, I think. And uh Steffi, Sabina, and I are right now offering something very special. We're offering a very small group, uh, which is on Sabina's. Um it's also in on unterwegs mit Buddha on Facebook, um, where we three meet. You know, we met two times and just pressed recording, and we just said, How is it for you to be awakened? How do you live? And you know, there are so many funny things happen that it's like the sense of time is just blown. There is no sense of time any longer. And uh Steffi once opened the door, there was an alarm, and the pit uh there was somebody ringing, and she was in her pyjama, she thought it's mailman, and it was a client, she had forgotten. I once forgot all my clients on a Monday because I had the very sure feeling it was Sunday, everything was so calm, and I thought, yeah, this is Sunday, this is a Sunday feel.

Ilona 21:06

That happens to me as well. Like I have uh this calendar with my appointments, but sometimes mine, I don't know how or why. What happens there decides? No, they canceled. Yeah, and I'm like, yeah, they canceled, that's okay. Nobody canceled.

Christiane 21:28

I'm always happy when somebody cancelled something less to forget. Yeah. I literally put my alarm each morning. I set my alarm, I look at my Google Calendar and then I set my alarms when I need to be there at a specific time. Otherwise, there is no way.

Ilona 21:44

Yeah, it helps for me too.

Christiane 21:45

Yeah. Like this morning, or tomorrow we are hosting guests, and we said for coffee, let's get some French bakeries. And then I thought, oh, why not have a French breakfast too? My partner said, Oh yeah, good idea. And so we got up really early at nine, but were only back at 11, and I was very surprised that somebody definitely messed with the time. It passes so fast.

Ilona 22:17

I had this yesterday. I thought it was one o'clock, but it was four.

Christiane 22:21

Yeah, right, exactly. Just like that, yeah. What happened then? And by the way, seeing through the self-illusion is called stream entry in Buddhism. It means it enters the stream, you enter the stream of awakening, and you will awaken whether you want it or not. There is no way, maybe not in this lifetime, but there is no way you will not awaken. And many people awake spontaneously too, like Sabina did for a whole stretch, and only was stuck in the very last step. Many people do that these days. This is what's changed in the scene. Or maybe the the others didn't speak up because they didn't have anybody to talk to. Yeah. Um Sabina said, You are the first one who gets me. And she said, you know, I can't see three-dimensional any longer. I said, Yeah, all right, feta sex check. Yeah, that's how it is. And please take care of it, you're driving, because it works the same. Um today I stumbled because I didn't see a bump on the curb. Another bump, not just the curb, but yet another bump. It was not properly done, and I just stumbled on it because I didn't see it. For me, it was flat. Yeah, so um it takes some awareness of how things look. We really need to look closely so our brain can put it together like used to. Mostly it fits like a TV screen, and we can we see TV and see it three-dimensionally, and it's not. And so our brain can do it, but it doesn't do it automatically any longer.

Ilona 24:22

No, some people may be listening and thinking, what?

Christiane 24:25

Yeah, that's how they're it. You will. You will you always function like it because, as I said, never anything that falls away, it just didn't ever exist. You just thought it did. This um, I recently thought about that. That really hit me when my last shift happened. I had this famous zen feeling of standing where I started just at the very beginning, and then there was a saying, look under your feet. And uh I hadn't gone anywhere, I stood at the very starting point and thought all the funny crap I thought was true. That was the difference, the only difference. I was sobered up. The Buddha names it world delusion, it's truly delusional because it feels surreal. But when you look, this is not something that's actually experienced. It's just something you think. You all like uh it's so fascinating. So I didn't end with what we do with Steffi and Sabina. So with Steffi and Sabina, we had these chats and we thought maybe other people would like to listen in and have questions about our experience we didn't ask ourselves. And so uh we are making, we created one event first on August 14th, where we will be three people, Sabina, Steffi, and I meeting, and then six people can join. So we really have an intimate room, nothing will be recorded, everybody can ask really open questions, even how how do you know your awareness will be true? I think that would be a good question.

Ilona 26:28

Yeah, and sometimes that comes up like how do you know that I'm not just imagining stuff?

Christiane 26:35

Right, and again, yeah, you could imagine stuff again, absolutely, and so I actually did until I reacted so badly to something, and I was boiling, I was really fuming, and I thought, all right, back to four or five. Yeah, but Kevin had told me there is the one year and one day rule, it's Southeast Asian, and uh they say when you think you're awakened, or even your teacher tells you, wait one year and a day before telling anybody else, because in this year something might change. That is what happened. One year and one day, yeah. One year and one day, they can't go telling wrong, really. Yeah.

Ilona 27:27

Or they hear don't need to tell anyone, just live your life.

Christiane 27:31

There is no need to tell anyone. Exactly. I mean, what are you gonna gain with that?

Ilona 27:37

Yeah. Well, unless you want some followers and some crowds of people coming, and then you can offer some.

Christiane 27:45

Yeah, you can do it far before awakening. I I have one mentoring running where the client, I don't know how she can do it. She produces such a spiritual crap, you know, what she thinks about what's happening, that I think she should be a guru. She's really good at this. This is a fault. She would make tons of money.

Ilona 28:12

But that's that's also a question that is when people awaken, like really awaken, can they go out and harm other people?

Christiane 28:22

No, it's not, you know, it's simply not possible because you feel um sometimes when I think, for example, somebody does something that's really off, I will tell them, but in a kind way. And not I don't try to because if I try to tell them how to write straight away, like Germans do amongst each other, if that would be an English person, I would do it differently. Because just while thinking about it, it feels nauseating to do that. I would feel so crappy inside myself that no, I don't want this feeling. So let's do it a different way. This is wrong. And I totally go with my feeling there. Yeah.

Ilona 29:11

So these people who go around and create, let's say, a massive following. Yeah. I've seen. Yeah, sure. But and then sexually abuse people, yeah, and more than that, brainwash and torture and all that. Yeah, it's happening.

Christiane 29:31

Uh-huh. Yeah, people need to be aware, really aware. Somebody tells you what to think, get out as quick as you can.

Ilona 29:40

Oh, I will fix you. I will give you a few years. You need me to awaken or get enlightened. No, nobody can give it to anybody. Transmission that you cannot live without.

Christiane 29:52

Yeah, it's like a virus, you can catch it. Catch what I have. No, it does not work like that. You need direct pointing to go back. It really is important. I once wrote a blog post in German where I compared doing what I do now, then I still guide it to my viola teacher. When I had viola lessons, I adored him. He had such a beautiful sound. He was the principal of the violas in our symphonic orchestra. Oh, he played so beautifully. But hey, he couldn't give me anything. He could only tell me what he does and how I can do it. And I had to practice really hard to even get this much closer. So it's like, no, we can't, nobody can transmit this stuff. Yeah, you will feel calmer around somebody who fundamentally feels calm. That's normal. People say to me, um, you feel so calm around you. Yeah, that's normal. That's um, you know, we respond to each other's curriculum, it's called co-regulation. But uh, I cannot give you the lack of the illusion that I'm in place. That's not possible.

Ilona 31:16

Yeah. It's good news for all these people who are trying to get it from somebody else. Right. Turn around and run.

Christiane 31:26

Yeah, don't do that. It'll end up like a cult, and then that's really bad, and getting out of that. Yeah. So I will give you the link to what Steffi and I do, and people, as I said, can ask any questions up to the question. How do you know that you're like it? Really good question. I doubt it. Yeah, they can say that, fine. Many people ask me, how can I be sure that I have seen through the self-illusion? Is it really true that you can be sure? Certainly, yeah. It's like as as I see the tree outside.

Ilona 32:14

Yeah. When this question comes towards me, I say, Well, if you have that question, then no.

Christiane 32:21

Yeah, right.

Ilona 32:22

Because otherwise that question wouldn't arrive.

Christiane 32:24

Yeah, right.

Ilona 32:28

Yeah, there are so many checkpoints that I have. Helpful. Absolutely. Yeah. And um it's good to have somebody to reflect back.

Christiane 32:40

Another thing that just crosses my mind is um when the self-illusion is seen through, I said that is called stream entry in Buddhism, and uh, there is no way to avoid awakening from now on. You can't mess it up. But it's different than I thought. I always thought stream entry, and then you lie on your back and float to the ocean. Oh, nice. Yeah, no, you know how it is, you know the South English coast with all these rock formations and the channel water hitting the rocks and creating these beautiful holes and dragons and things. And it's like that. You're a rock in the water, and the water demolishes the rock. It sometimes felt like that to me and was very lively. Yeah, it's like, oh, a thing, a thing of me has fallen out. Yeah.

Ilona 33:42

Okay, what would you say that once all these illusions start crumbling and falling out? What's left?

Christiane 33:51

Experience. And what's what's also left is still the name for experiences. It's not that we land in direct experience. It's not that seeing something remains green, brown, different directions. Like you would paint, see it as a painter. To paint it, you need to just have the direct experience and put it on paper if you do copying nature. But um it's not like that. We still know what is what. The Buddha didn't walk into a tree with a spagging wall, he just knew what a tree was.

Ilona 34:33

Right?

Christiane 34:34

Yeah, and so that wasn't the problem. So we still know what everything is, still everything works. The thing with the space, um, that's something you can have some tricks for, really. Like when I drive the motorway and there is a narrowing because of uh road constructions, and I always think, oh, it's too narrow. Although I drive a very narrow car. And uh then I just focus on the very distance where I want to go. I don't think about what's close because it feels so tight that I would not drive there or feel very like this, I won't go well. How are my very humorous outside doing? So yeah, and if I just focus on the distance where I want to go, it seems to like the space seems to enlarge and I can again pass. So the space thing stays like that. Yeah, it's odd, it's really odd. And uh now I have a camera on my car for reverse parking because that was such a mess. I had to get out of my car all the time because I didn't know how far I was away. So I then had a car that ended on the outside where it ended on the inside, so it was very clear basically, but in my brain it just wouldn't construct.

Ilona 36:05

So yeah. And um, another thing about the brain, does it still construct stories about the past, what happened, what could have happened, or the futures, what if scenarios, what worries and stuff, or is that completely ceases or ceases?

Christiane 36:29

Yeah, yeah, that ceases. It's it's what gives the peace, I think.

Ilona 36:37

I'm asking that because people want peace.

Christiane 36:40

Yeah, a lot of people are looking for peace. Absolutely, that's what I do.

Ilona 36:46

And then they go into war with their thoughts or with their stories, or yeah, trying to deny them, dismiss them. No, that doesn't work.

Christiane 36:55

That's called brainwashing, it doesn't work. It just doesn't, yeah, yeah. No, it just doesn't happen any longer.

Ilona 37:05

So seizing is effortless, basically. It's not something you can do.

Christiane 37:10

No, not you can't do this. I don't think it's possible. No. This would need massive brainwashing, like trauma, like brainwashing. Real brainwashing. No. You know, I used to think I don't really suffer that much. I always thought the Buddha overdid it with his uh yeah, ending suffering. I thought, oh come on, it isn't that bad. But now I see how bad it was. Really, with all these stories, because all the drama happens in the stories. I never found a single situation in my life when it actually happened that was really, really terrible. You know, because situations happen one step at a time, and and not like five years or ten years or whole lifetime in a time. And then not even it's not even what's happening. So no. Um that's really good. Otherwise, this situation right now with my partner would really terrify me. And it would be like, I can't think, I can't do nothing because we have to wait what it happens. Now somehow it just disappears. It deepens the relationship tremendously, being on the an edge like that, but um because it's a life-death situation, but otherwise, yeah. Like when I guessed yesterday evening when I had the idea with the French coffee, uh, morning coffee, I said, oh yeah. And so we just went there and really enjoyed it. There were many people, many bizarre people uh who had a French coffee in the morning. I love bizarre people. Like somebody dressed like a Frenchman with three-quarter trousers, a man, an old man, and a hat, and he had tied his longer hair in the back, and then he read The Monde, so the biggest newspaper in France, and had his coffee. It was really it was like a movie. Ah yeah, it sounds like yeah, like everything is a movie set, really, yeah, yeah. And this is exactly what I feel in this situation with my partner. It's like, all right, this is the script now, the movie script, and this is it. There is no in-or-out opting, it's like that. That's right.

Ilona 40:17

It's like that, yeah. Yeah. I have sometimes situations with my cats and all of them they get sick. Um recently one cat has got something weird going on with him. Oh I have to take him to the vet. And me crying in a dream that I cannot help him. I was just so intense. Oh yeah. I wake up and it's like it's still ongoing. But then the situation arranges itself. Somebody gives me a lift to another vet, and they have a look, and it's not as bad as it looks in the first thing. But all that upheaval, all that wave of yeah, right. It just goes through the system, even though everything's okay, and I know it's all going to be okay.

Christiane 41:17

But um, yeah, I mean, crying is okay. It's it's just a sign that the emotions are intense.

Ilona 41:24

Yeah.

Christiane 41:25

That doesn't have any somebody once asked a Zen Master, uh a Zen master whose son had died while he was crying at the grave. And he said, because I'm sad. So yeah. That's all. The emotions are intense, and then we cry, we cry off laughter too.

Ilona 41:56

So I see that people are going into seeking because of suffering and because of all these emotions that are too heavy and too big, and I can't take this anymore situation. And everyone wants us to feel feel okay, feel accepted, feel in the right place in the right time. And that's already the case. It's just that this mental noise is always saying something else, something else, not this, not this. When it's it is this.

Christiane 42:34

This is the weird thing. Wanting to always feel good is the reason why we developed all these illusions down to the self-illusion, so we could be in control of feeling good, but once we let go of the illusions, it actually feels quite alright. Everything, no, not all feels good, but even that is alright. So, yeah.

Ilona 43:02

Yes, because I get this. Somebody saying that I say, How do you know that uh you don't see it? How do you know that you're not awakened? And they say, Oh, I don't feel good, and that looks like an evidence for that person of awakening is feeling good. It's got nothing to do with that.

Christiane 43:25

No, no, no, no. Um, by the way, the Buddha had several lectures about this, and he describes that there is, he calls us, he calls awakening nibbana or nirvana, nibbana was the Pali language, and uh, when you awaken, so when all the fetus of being, he calls the fetus, are released, then there will still be agreeable and disagreeable situations and comfortable and uncomfortable feelings as long as the body with the six senses exist. Only when this body falls away, then there will be no discomfort any longer.

Ilona 44:08

Oh, that's so good. Thank you for saying that. Because anyone who thinks that I still feel grateful, I still get angry, I still get triggered, it's like yes.

Christiane 44:20

Yeah, yeah. No, the resistance against that is what makes them unawake. Yeah.

Ilona 44:28

Yeah, that's a good point. As you mentioned in the beginning, there's like a relationship with what is here. Right. And that relationship is like it is the self created to have that relationship. So it's not just a relationship, it's the sense of self created together or arises together with that relationship. And that relationship is like confirming or being an evidence for the self to be here. But if you take all that away, that relationship which is push and pull, I like it, I don't like it, uh judgment, especially judgment, complaining, all that kind of stuff. You take that away, it's just experience.

Christiane 45:14

Yeah, I remember when for me the last shift in the Feta 4-5 desire and it will happen. And Kevin asked me, Why did you ever react? I had no idea what to say, and I said, I thought my second name was God, like I wanted everything to be the way I wanted it to be.

Ilona 45:44

Yeah, that's quite bizarre, isn't it?

Christiane 45:49

Yeah, it's very bizarre.

Ilona 45:51

This is what is running in normal everyday life for so many people.

Christiane 45:59

Yeah, like when I was looking for a partner, I talked to Kevin and he said, I don't think you'll get along with somebody who's still reacted. This and it's true, if people when people react, I always think, oh, poor people, what's wrong with you? Are you sick? Oh, why are you so reactive? They really feel ill to me. And I think, oh, and then I remember that one I was practiced quite a drama queen, actually. So yeah, I reacted too. And uh it's really all because we want the world to be as we want to create it, and the world reality doesn't obey our rules. So we want to be gods. I think I always, you know, uh like and and my partner, he doesn't have that, he never discusses reality. He said, Oh, so when he got the result, he he called me and said, We need to talk. The result is that uh sent it to you via email, so I looked at it and yeah, he's right, and on the top it said urgent presentation to the doctors, and uh so I thought, and but he never said, and why, and things like that. I did so much sport, I think it's really healthily. So uh, why did this happen? And no, nothing that's happening. And I asked him, and in his family that was the same, never everybody ever did that. It was like he doesn't have a reactivity in his repertoire, he feels a sense of self, and he doesn't really understand that it doesn't exist, but um, and he says, No, I'm more realistic, I think, than you, and I think you might not be enough realistic. And then he said, Oh, you might be right, and uh yeah, no, and that's such an easy way to be together, even in crisis situations, because a discussion with reality are just not a topic, and so we can deal with the situation and say, okay, what do we do? What do we need to do? Um, and otherwise let's enjoy.

Ilona 48:35

That that sounds like sanity, yeah. To me too. Yes, yeah, because other than this, it's insane to argue with words, yeah. Yeah, it takes so much energy as well.

Christiane 48:53

Um, when I was on the path, I worked in a psychiatric award nights. I did some substitutions when other when they didn't have enough doctors. And I always thought of that. Like when they came with producing all these illusions that Godzilla is behind them, but not eating them, but protecting them, and I should be very aware if I do anything wrong, then Godzilla eats me, or something like that. Well, it's exactly like that. And you know, when somebody like that comes in and he's a danger to somebody else, uh, he can be kept with against his will, but a judge needs to decide that. And he said, How can somebody think such a thing? And I said, our reality is perception, and he perceives why we don't know a Godzilla behind him. We perceive other things that are not true, but we think they are true. So, yeah, we just have different hallucinations. We think something is real that isn't.

Ilona 50:05

What else is a hallucination? Myself, I've never been around around children, but uh I have kids. No, but I don't see kids basically on a regular basis. And once I met this little boy and they always spent time together there. And he was fishing, which I gave him a little stick, a little a little string, and he's fishing. He can see the fish, and he caught one and he gave it to me, and I'm like, Oh god, thank you. Yeah, good fish, you know. But but that just reminds me of how the mind creates energy, creates hallucinations, and for their lower voice, real. I don't remember in childhood how it was. I just remember playing, but it was normal, right? Yeah, but we think we grew up out of that. But how do we know that all hallucinations cease with playing without yeah, it's incredible.

Christiane 51:08

Um in my examination, a psychiatrist psychiatric examination, I was asked the definition of the hallucination, and the definition is sensory reception without sensory input. Oh yeah, that's the definition of a hallucination. That's how we think about the me in our life, all its aspects.

Ilona 51:34

Yes, yes. Yeah, because where what is the sensory input of me or a person? Right. I'm here and my person is here. How do you know? Yeah, exactly.

Christiane 51:48

I have a psychotic yeah, a psychotic would person would say, I see Godsella, but don't you see him? Why do you not see him? You you have something wrong with him? I think something is wrong with him, but you can't see him. Yeah, right.

Ilona 52:11

Oh, actually, you know, these days we all have we all use AI, or most people tried it already, and when AI starts hallucinating, it's so ridiculous. You know, oh you don't know. Basically, if you can have a conversation, you can have a conversation with AI, and at some point it starts creating things that uh they were never there in the conversation. I say, Why do you say that? Oh, it's just to keep a conversation, but you know, I'd rather you don't. You wouldn't, because if you don't know, you just say, I don't know, don't just create stuff to talk, you know. But it's just also like it's spilling into this new technology and it's famous for hallucinations.

Christiane 52:59

Oh wow, I did not know that. Yeah, yeah, then I used ChatGPT recently because videos right now don't play on my laptop. I have an airbook and uh it's right now in repair. And I asked ChatGPT, and so they led me through what was wrong, which we found out the right thing, and I said, Yeah, you need to install Linux on your system. Linux on an airbook.

Ilona 53:30

I don't think that's that's that's it.

Christiane 53:34

Talking for the sake of talking, and I but I when I went into the shop, I so what's wrong if the SSD card doesn't work any longer? So it's not uh that I need to install Linux, and I said, Yeah, ChatGPT tells you something, so dear, yeah.

Ilona 53:57

So it's that hallucination is pulling out yeah and things it's just inventing things, yeah. Yeah, we go. So how how can we unhallucinate ourselves? Right.

Christiane 54:11

Really by asking, is what am I talking about something I experience or is this something I think? And the distinction is so important and it's hard for many people, because mostly I call it living on the first aberration. Mostly so we give things a name like cherry tree in front of me, and then we don't think of the cherry tree itself, but actually of the word cherry tree. There is a cherry tree. Now, if somebody tells me I'm sitting at a beautiful table, I will imagine the last beautiful table I thought, I thought I saw. They think of a totally different table because their table looks probably different than mine table I'm imagining right now. And so if we converse in symbols only and everybody associates their own pictures, we are both happily hallucinating along. Yeah. By the way, that's where partnerships go wrong. Like, for example, let's say we say, okay, tomorrow we'll have an easy day. I have a very special picture of an easy day. I don't have to set an alarm, I have very late breakfast, maybe no lunch, and dinner, late afternoon, and otherwise I just don't have anything to do. The other person has to tell you next to me. Oh, so we go into the woods today, right? And I said, actually, that's not my picture of lazy. So we really need to share what we imagine to even communicate, and that's where all communication goes wrong. And we it we communicate with ourselves the same way. We only think in symbols and don't really think, okay, what does this actually mean? Which experience does this relate to? Is there something it relates to at all? That's the question. And this is with every feta. This is the question we ask in every feta. It's always the same question. Does this exist?

Ilona 56:46

Very good.

Christiane 56:54

So to come back, what we started with big uh direct experience and direct pointing, if you would like to relax a bit and just take in what's coming in without sorting out what's happening, without touching, just letting it flow through. That's fine, that's totally relaxing enjoy. But do not think this is inquiry, this is just enjoying life. And this usually happens a lot more when the stories all fall away, because then you just experience and stories are no longer created. So it's a more relaxed and a more sensory-intense way of living, I would say.

Ilona 57:38

Otherwise it's this like what mindfulness points to just being aware of.

Christiane 57:43

Yeah, but there's still this I am mindful. And so there you're still the the the watch of everything. Uh-huh. So you're still on the first aberration of experience and not directly experiencing things. But it goes, it can go there. And uh otherwise, if you want to let go of the illusions, just look for the illusion, whether it does exist. And as real, let's say, as this external disk. Does it exist just as well as this one? This is my backup. So um don't just think about whether it exists, you need to find out whether it does. Like when I can't find my keys. Favorite occupation, it needs an attic. They need an attic. Uh then I can think about where I have it last, but I will not know whether it's there in that location until I look. And that's the same with all the illusions we have. Oh, apparently. Starting with the self, yeah. Even when I look for uh for my phone, and since it has a black case, it often disappears on black backgrounds or dark backgrounds. And I can use my watch to search for it. And when it rings, I still need to go and follow the ring until I know where it is. I see it, and then I know where it is. If I only hear the ring, yeah, that's an approximation in which room the phone is, but not where exactly. So really look where it is. Just look.

Ilona 59:38

That's so simple. Yes, and when there is nothing except that for what it is, nothing.

Christiane 59:44

Yeah. Did I no, I couldn't have told you yesterday, I didn't know then yet. We did uh one afternoon in a Buddhist center, and we had a little explanation online written up for them, Steffi and I, how this works. And there was half a year ago, a woman came into a group, into one of Steffi's group, which we both host, and a German woman was a German-speaking group, and she told us that she wanted to come but she couldn't, and we then she just started with this very short instruction about how you look for the self. In the morning and in the evening, so when she woke up for 10 minutes, she looked whether there was a self, and in the evening the same. And after a few months, three months or so, the penny dropped. And that was all she did. She just really looked for the self. And so it's really simple, it's not just a saying, and we make it so complicated. Yeah. We were so happy because our res I think our seminar didn't really resonate with the Buddhists because they were pretty full of the teaching, which I all know as well. But I'm this kind of non-believer. I think, yeah, that sounds nice. Let's see whether it's true. I'm this kind of person, but most people believe it, and so and then it clogs up their perception and their context. Oh, yes, it is it clogs right, it clogs up their perception, and the experience is muddled, and it's so hard for them. I'm so sorry when I saw through the surf illusion. Um, my first thought was of the people I sat with regularly studying the poly canon, and they all had complaints, they were like in the 70s and 80s that they hadn't had stream entry yet. And uh I thought I need to help them, this is so simple. That's why I wanted to learn how to guide. And uh but I found out later that it truly doesn't learn. Wow, so yeah, that's how to. But some people pick it up, and I'm so happy she did.

Ilona 1:02:18

Yeah. Oh our conversation is coming to an end. And I want to ask you a last question. What would you like a listener or watcher of this video to stay with I would like them to only take us through what they experience not the thoughts not the content of thoughts.

Christiane 1:03:08

Thoughts are there, we know them. So thought that's why the Buddha talks of six senses. Thoughts are there, but what they talk about only take for real if you can sensorically experience it. Otherwise it's just a thought. People might say, then feelings are thoughts too. No, feelings are sensations plus a name. You experience them. They are not just feelings, they are feelings, it's an experience, that's fine. And thoughts can trigger it, but that doesn't mean that thoughts are true.

Ilona 1:03:48

Yeah. So good, so good, Christiane. So happy to talk to you again.

Christiane 1:03:58

Never believe your thoughts. That's why people do so well who come from Katie Byron. Byron Katie, yeah, yeah, from the works because they don't believe the thoughts.

Ilona 1:04:11

But that also can be a belief too.

Christiane 1:04:13

I don't believe that can turn into a belief, actually. Yeah.

Ilona 1:04:17

I had I remember I had that, I don't have any beliefs.

Christiane 1:04:20

Yeah.

Ilona 1:04:24

Yeah, good good belief.

Christiane 1:04:32

Really, just just ask yourself, is this actually happening? Is this true? And if you mind take you off on a ghost ride, just return to what is seen right now, what is heard right now, which touch sensations are there. This is what is there, the rest is all only thought. That can take you out of many ghost rides very easily.

Ilona 1:05:06

Great. Well, thank you so much. Oh, we may speak again. Thank you. We will. Yes. Thank you, and thank you everyone for watching, for listening, and leave your comments, we respond. Bye.