Afternoon Pint
Afternoon Pint is a laid-back Canadian podcast hosted by Matt Conrad and Mike Tobin. Each episode, they invite a special guest to join them at a pub or microbrewery to get to know them a bit better. Conversations cover a wide range of topics, including Entrepreneurship, business, Arts, pop culture, music, science, society, Life stories, experiences, you get the idea...
Our aim is to create a show for everyone (even non-Canadians.) We create a welcoming atmosphere where guests can share their perspectives with transparency. Essentially, Afternoon Pint is like heading to the pub after work to catch up with some friends through your headphones or stereo. We are Nova Scotia's #2 podcast, but we pretend we are number 1!
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Afternoon Pint
Julie Lawrence - Marginalization, Addiction, Recovery & Empowerment. (Coast Newsletter Editor & Founder of DEFY Magazine)
Julie Lawrence shares her journey from being sidelined in a male-dominated news and magazine editorial world to creating her own platform that champions women's voices. DEFY Magazine is a digital feminist magazine for unapologetic working women. https://defymag.ca/ Julie also is editor for The Coast Daily Newsletter which you can receive daily for free if you subscribe to https://www.thecoast.ca/
This episode has a lot to do about the personal battles and the external forces that shape our lives. Julie gives us an authentic take on what it feels like to go through workplace sexism & discrimination. She as also takes us through a heart-breaking story of addiction where she lost nearly everything before a remarkable recovery.
Julie's story was inspiring and we thank her for trusting us to tell some of her story. If you, or a loved one suffer with addiction and need support, there is help. In Nova Scotia, you can contact the Provincial Mental Health and Addictions Crisis Line 1-888-429-8167
Kimia Nejat of Kimia Nejat Realty
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Cheers, cheers. Welcome to the Afternoon Plane. I'm Mike Tobin, I am Matt Conrad, and who do we have with us today?
Speaker 3:I'm Julie Lawrence. Julie Lawrence.
Speaker 1:Julie Lawrence. Welcome Julie. We found you where I think LinkedIn, or I saw you on the Coast. I was reading, I did find you. That's correct, and long story short though you were Coast Magazine Editor.
Speaker 3:Coast Newsletter yeah, Coast.
Speaker 1:Newsletter Coast Newsletter. Yeah, and then on top of that you run Defy Magazine for women, I do, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And for men.
Speaker 2:And for men yeah, everyone can read it. Absolutely as long as you can read.
Speaker 1:So Defy Magazine, maybe just tell us a little bit of what that's about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Defy Magazine is kind of a passion project that I started for a health and wellness magazine that was run by two middle aged men and I started to like, week to week, I'm the editor of the magazine and I'm like being dictated to about like, what kind of like topics and what kind of content that they think that women should be interested in, and everything from like. They would tell me, like you know, we should do an issue called you know, restriction conviction, where we teach women how to do the fast diet and I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, like we're not going to teach women how to starve themselves.
Speaker 3:I understand some people like the fast diet but like I don't feel good about that, Right Like I don't feel good about, you know, and it was just like it was constantly like kind of beating, and I am a woman, my opinion just didn't matter as much as like the next, like white guy, they asked Right.
Speaker 3:So I would be like you know, I would have a cover and they, you know be ready to go to print. And they'd be like, well, we talked to our like newsstand guy and I'm like newsstand guy, what is this? 96, right. And he says like know, black and black and red covers don't do well, and I'm like well, that, what like?
Speaker 1:you know.
Speaker 3:So we decided to change the whole thing, and we don't care what you think interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and before we go forward, I should just say we're at garrison brewing.
Speaker 2:Yes uh, this is oxford taproom.
Speaker 1:Uh, this might be the last time we're here this year, matt I think it is because I mean it's getting close there. So we were we've got all our episodes wrapped up for the year that.
Speaker 2:That's right, yes, so cheers to them, cheers to Garrison. Yeah, we got nut brown and Irish red.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what we got going on the go and you're not drinking. We welcome that as well. You know you don't have to drink alcohol to hang out with us If.
Speaker 3:I drank, I would burn the city down like in days. Oh yeah, it's just best for everyone. Well, I appreciate that 100%. So back to you, this kind of guy that's telling you what to do and kind of instructing how things are ran when you're the woman that's running a women's magazine, not even just the expert, because I'm a woman, but because I've got 15, 20 years experience in marketing and advertising.
Speaker 3:I know my stuff right and I just sort of started to realize, huh, if this is happening at this like Canadian women's magazine, like this has got to be happening everywhere. And everywhere that I've worked it's been kind of the same setup where it's like, you know, when it all comes down to it, it's like it doesn't matter how scrappy you are, smart you are, how hard you work. It's like there's always just some like guy at the top that's just not going to listen and it's like that by design.
Speaker 3:And it's always been like that. So I started Defy to start talking about some of the stuff because I found, when I would call my friends that are like you know and other lawyers and financial planners and other journalists and I'd be like, this thing happened today. Am I crazy or is this really messed up and this?
Speaker 1:wasn't the start of this. I read, and I really invite people to read, the About Us section in the Defy magazine page. Is it called the Welcome?
Speaker 3:I think it was just yeah, the Welcome, the Welcome section, and it's for you, the editor, just kind of your story and what brought you to this? Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I mean that story really was like holy shit, like I was so shocked when I read the whole thing. Start to finish, and I mean starting out. I mean you know what, can you tell me about some of the hardships that you went through that kind of got you to this point where you wanted to put out this magazine?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I definitely have had some ups and downs. I was working in advertising and was pretty like young into my career and got into kind of an inappropriate relationship with, you know someone that was significant and older and had a lot more experience. And it was kind of my undoing in a lot of ways, like I was very, you know, very smart, very driven, had, you know, pretty good experience and I was a real like kind of up and comer and then kind of got into this relationship that I couldn't like emotionally handle and it was, you know, I don't think I realized at the time because I was so young I was only like 25 and 27 or something like that but I thought because I was complicit and that I was like into it and that I thought, you know, I I thought that that that meant that it was okay right and I didn't understand kind of an imbalance in power and what that means and to watch somebody like you know, within a couple years of that, it kind of like ate away at me morally and professionally.
Speaker 3:And I turned because I always talk about and I talk to a lot of people about this, but when you're kind of like what your morality and your values and the person that you want to be is not aligning with your actions, right, so you're like I'm a person that values X, Y and Z, but I'm behaving like this, and then there's this kind of gap right and disconnect there and I was filling that with booze and drugs and whatever I needed to kind of do to make myself be okay with how shitty I felt about what was happening, um and so kind of like, as I was having this downfall, uh and kind of like, basically like committing career suicide because I was, you know, using and drinking so much, and watching this person kind of be like watch you disintegrate and kind of take no responsibility, and it kind of chewed me up and spit me out and uh, and after that it was just it was a long hard, like it started off about one thing but then just became like I got completely, I would say completely unemployable, basically like borderline homeless because of where it took me. So going from somebody that was, you know, doing really well, financially really good family South End to, like you know, my dad, basically, like towards the end, I couldn't go into my parents' like South End home without taking a breathalyzer. They couldn't keep anything Like. It was like everything was locked down because I would steal everything and sell it. And my dad basically put me in this like one. He always said the one thing he couldn't like he couldn't sleep at night if I was on the streets, right. So the only reason I wasn't homeless was circumstance, right, financial circumstance, and so he put me in this one bedroom and I always joke about it now when I speak to people that I help, like it was almost like the drawer of a morgue, right, it was just this tiny one bedroom and he put me in there and he basically was like I just assumed that we were putting you in there to die, so that was.
Speaker 3:yeah, it was a pretty prolific fall from grace. But, in a lot of ways, crossing my legs and making noise in a lot of ways, like it couldn't have gone any. I'm so grateful that it happened that way. But I also want to be able to, as we come back, to Defy as like the next 25-year-old whose boss says you know we see something really special in you and then tries to kiss you that you know to be like A hundred percent Like no right no-transcript and it can be really, really damaging.
Speaker 1:But, like you know, you have kids and relationships too. But even like the quote-unquote work-wife relationship, oh yeah. You know this is a thing right, and I think there's times where you know people bring somebody that might be attractive with them. You, you know that works with them.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah, like that yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, bring attention to their table, so they're at a corporate event.
Speaker 2:You know what I I all like, and even a little bit further, that I can speak to this. A little bit is I remember, um, I was going to apply for a job at one point. Try to as high level as possible. I don't want to single anybody out, but uh, I was taking, I was looking into leaving the current company not the current current company, a company I was at at the time Um, and looking to go somewhere else. I was talking to one of the higher, like really met the highest person in this and uh, they said, well, you need to, you'll need someone to come along with you to support you right.
Speaker 2:Basically, it's kind of like my account manager type of thing, right, and I was like, okay, great, I got the perfect person, someone who I work with. She was top-notch, did the work of two right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as they do. You're right, yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 2:And I was like that's who I'm going to bring along. And, um, I remember the comment that was made to me was like he asked for a name. And the next time I met with him was said was I looked her up, she's pretty good looking. You know, it'll be great to kind of bring her. Hopefully she follows you along, or something like that. And I think from that moment I knew I didn't want to work there like immediately was just kind of like yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:I really try to keep that like, quite, like, very, very separate especially because you talk about this right Like about the kind of boys club a little bit. And that's something I really, I really thought about a lot, right, and maybe we, sometimes guys, might not even realize how much they're they're broing out, right.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, and it's this idea that like it was interesting, because I, when I first graduated from pr school at the mount, I started working at the department of finance with communications, nova scotia, and everybody there was like my boss, the director of communications, was this brilliant woman, the deputy minister, the assistant deputy minister, all women. So like this is where I'm learning. And then I I kind of got headhunted to go work in advertising and I was like why not? Like it seems like. It seems like it was like you know, 2010 when, like the heyday of the big ad agencies, and it was so cool and I learned very quickly that like your job is to make like the men's job easier.
Speaker 3:Right, so they sit around with their feet up and they're like crappy clothes and like I'm like you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like. You're not that like and I'm just saying this to our listeners you're still very young, so this is not like this happened 30 years ago.
Speaker 3:No, like it was very like, and asking someone to like just do their job was like pulling teeth. And the other thing that you have to remember is like when there's that generational gap, like I remember like you'd walk into the boardroom and it was like mom's here to like ruin your day by asking you to do your job right. And there's this. I always love this, love this story where they did a study and I'll have to get back to you on where it was, but I always cite it where there's like they did like a sociological study, where there's like a boardroom full of people and someone will come in and put a tray of sandwiches down and it will have like saran wrap over it and every time the men, without fail, will look at the woman in the room to like unwrap it and serve it.
Speaker 1:Well, to like unwrap it and serve it. What the fuck really Right?
Speaker 3:I can't relate to that personally in my world but I mean, I heard you, but it's like that, it's just like it's.
Speaker 2:I can't either, because I generally want to get the sandwiches first. Right, but isn't that amazing, though?
Speaker 3:But it's not because and this is where it comes down to like misogyny versus sexism. It's not like they're sitting there being like I, stupid, and they're it's like, well, my mom always did it, and women take care of you, and like they'll get me my sandwiches and and. And it's the same thing if you're walking down the street, if you don't move, men will just smash right into you not because they hate you, but because they've always like just everyone kind of gets out of the way.
Speaker 1:So here's a question, man, because you recovered right and I think that's pretty amazing.
Speaker 3:Like you know, this recovery and rebuild five years, and all this celebrated five years.
Speaker 3:Congratulations what clicked that you were like no I need to yeah, do this you know, I don't know I had been in and out of um rehabs. I've been to rehab like five times and I was, I think, like in the last six months, that I was out drinking, I was in the hospital every second week and I would be, you know, hooked up like I was it. I was in and out of hospitals. I was really sick and I'm not talking about, like you know, I was drinking too much and like making bad decisions. I'm talking like my body was shutting down. I was so, so sick, um, and the last time that I went, I went in there and my parents brought me and I remember that they, for whatever reason, normally they're really terrible to you which was a conversation for another day about how the medical system and police treat addicts, right Cause it's just like it's it's, it's like well, you did this to yourself, so you're not even worthy of like the respect in a hospital, so I've sat in so many.
Speaker 3:ERs and been like at a certain point you just leave and go to the liquor store Cause you just can't stand how it feels and and I and I remember one time being in there and like knocking my head up against a wall trying to knock myself out to try to get medical attention because I was so sick. But this time when I went, my parents took me and it happened to just be like the woman at like. Triage was like an angel and the nurse was so kind to me and I remember I have it written and I keep it in my wallet the exact I wrote it like the exact feeling of like looking in my parents eyes and having this IB in my arm. And it was a. It was a Monday and I had a bed in an all-women's rehab on a Friday and the doctor looked at me and my parents looked at me and I just remember the doctor said keep her drunk but keep her close until she gets somewhere where they can properly detox her.
Speaker 3:And honestly, guys like the only I don't I always say this it's like people are always like what's the turning point? I'm like I don't know. It was no different than any other trip to the hospital, except it was the last time and it, you know, it was no different than any other trip to the rehab, except for it was the last time. And uh, now, you know, with a bunch of time under my belt and in perspective, I really do think that, for whatever reason, my like, my mom is now um, has alzheimer's, she lives in in care, and I think that it was like the universe being like we're gonna need you, your family needs you yeah like you, you're about to get like hit, really freaking hard by my higher power.
Speaker 3:That was like you better get your shit together because your family's gonna need you in a big way. Amazing, and I don't think I registered that at the time.
Speaker 1:But it was just like I finally was just like desperate enough to do all the things that people recommended that I do and to folks listening, I should just say, really, just like they might be saying, why the hell are they in a pub right now?
Speaker 2:no right, and I did check that with you before we and, as I do, I love drinking right, if I could drink tea or coffee where you want to go, we're really super easy. We're obviously. We've had other people who've had addiction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean if I was living in like the.
Speaker 3:The good thing about what I love, about my sobriety and the program that I'm in is that, like I'm just completely neutral, like if I was like literally spending all of my time actively not drinking, or like white knuckling it or trying to stay away from it I'd rather just be drinking. That's nice sorry guys they're coming for me yeah.
Speaker 2:But do you know what?
Speaker 3:I mean, like it's like I don't want to actively be not drinking my whole life. I don't even think about it literally, and it's funny because when I first got sober my family would always, like you know, kind of hide the booze. I'd hear them like scurrying around because it was a big drinking family, I know so many people that quit drinking and their life improved. I don't think anyone needs to be drinking.
Speaker 1:Like their life improved like 30 times fold from what it was before.
Speaker 3:It just keeps getting better. It's wild.
Speaker 3:You know them and you see them, and then they have a glow about them and they completely turn to this person that you loved and you knew was there but, you just didn't know right and it's amazing for me how quickly, like, I got out of that rehab and I did the work and I got sober, yeah, and within like, I went from being a person that wasn't allowed in my parents' house, wasn't allowed like I couldn't know the code to the garage I couldn't like, to being someone that was like my dad would look in my eyes and be like I don't know what happened, but you're completely changed and within the year, I was like had the company credit card, had the codes to the house, like was the car. You know what I mean, like everything, and you think you deserve that, but there was never like you're in that back but it was just a weird.
Speaker 2:They could just tell in my eyes that I know also like yeah, you earned it back, but like good on them to be like open to that right, because some aren't, some aren't, like some people just have their head, like once you've burned a certain, like you know, memory or image in their head.
Speaker 3:They just live to that I have lots of friends that still won't like, friends from like that were, like you know, stood by me in my wedding, that don't don't want to know me anymore. Really, yeah, and I, and it's a lot of like. You know, there's some reason where, you know, I used to blame myself a lot, um, and, you know, beat myself up, but it's also like, while I was doing.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's not that it's like. I mean sometimes these things just happen because people just can't invest time in that.
Speaker 3:It's like yeah, well, they've got a couple of kids now, and they're you know, they moved on this way. And it's like our lives just aren't and like that's okay and I'm not going to like grovel and beg someone to forgive me right.
Speaker 2:So it's just, it's all. Thank you, awesome. Just a five years, yeah, no. Hey. No, you're drinking water, you're here, you're happy and healthy.
Speaker 1:That's freaking awesome. That's. That's a great.
Speaker 2:That's a great story I think it is, yeah. I mean, uh, we've I think we've talked about this before where we said, like you know, it's all fine and dandy to have a drink, but the thing is, is that when it's a problem, it's a problem yeah? And you just obviously steer clear. But that's like anything yeah I mean you kind of spoke on that a little bit like kind of just touched on it where it's like you were just trying to fill a hole.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm not an expert in this by any means, but I don't know if I believe in like alcoholism as much as I believe in just addiction Straight across the board. Like people fill whatever, and that's probably just because I've known people who like refill their whatever. Their vice may choose to be with other things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, their, whatever their vice may choose. Yeah, be yeah with other things. Yeah, I, I think so too. I do subscribe to like. I think that alcoholism, for the way that I understand it, is a disease. It's an allergy of the mind and body. But I also do like in. I remember being like like four years old and being like scared, like an existential fear, like I would be, like my parents would go on vacation, I'd be like they're gonna die and what happens when they?
Speaker 2:die, and who's going to take?
Speaker 3:care of me and like I think I was born like maladjusted and so I had this like hole in my little soul. That was just fear, Right. I was just scared of everything and how that manifested in my childhood was that I was scared all the time. And then I I took a drink, I found booze and it wasn't like immediately, like I was like, and then I was like an alcoholic from the beginning, but it was like.
Speaker 3:It was like I was just like, oh you know, the fear went away, I could kind of connect with people and then it escalated from there. But but I do think that what happened is is, like a lot of people, what they'll do is they're like they put the booze down but they don't fix that hole right right, and so they're just miserable.
Speaker 1:So did you right? Did you seek therapy, like to kind of help you through all that stuff, like kind of to work that stuff out, or did you figure it out yourself? Uh, I go to a you go to a yeah, and that is therapy.
Speaker 3:I'm a purist, right, yeah, no, but that's awesome, yeah, um so that's what worked for me for this alcoholic because the you know the, the way that they describe it, is just what I relate to, which is just a spiritual and and the and the easiest way to like. I'm like. People are always like well, how do I know if I'm an alcoholic?
Speaker 3:I'm like if, once you start, you can't stop and then you can't stop starting you might want to look at that right, because I could kind of get on board and I think a lot of people are like oh, once I start, I start I can't stop and I just want to like go, go, go, but I couldn't stay stopped. So I would know, I would know and like in my heart, be like I'm going to drink and it's going to be so bad. And I'm going to like the truth is, I'll end up in the hospital. I'll end up in jail.
Speaker 3:Something bad is going to happen. It's so easy for me yeah.
Speaker 2:If you're having a drink and then you're ending up being in the hospital, obviously that's like yeah, ab, you can connect that right. But then there's other types where it's like you know, functional alcoholism, where, like, people aren't ending up in the hospital but they're damaging relationships or whatever.
Speaker 3:Right, there's all sorts of people that are like they come home and they're kind of like brow beaten by you know lots of stuff that happens at work or whatever and they have a bottle of wine and they numb out and then the next day they have a little like and it's like all of a sudden, like you know, you're 60 and you've numbed out your whole life. You. You've missed it right Because you're just kind of like so nothing terrible happens, and you don't.
Speaker 1:You missed it but you can still stop, yeah, and I see lots of people that Live that rest of that life right, but I'm just kind of like mine was so quick that it's just like I learned how to live properly a lot earlier than I would have, or maybe never at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's like you know people are like why did it have to get so bad? I'm like I just did so you totally rebuilt yourself.
Speaker 1:Now you're editing like I mean, matt and I grew up with the Coast magazines all around town Flyers grabbing them every week trying to figure out what the bands were playing and stuff like that. I mean, the Coast is probably one of the most coveted magazines in Halifax right and it's still going.
Speaker 2:How'd you land that?
Speaker 3:Well, anyway, How'd you get?
Speaker 2:into that? Yeah, how'd you land that? Stop looking at me like that.
Speaker 3:So yeah, let's just jump into that, all right, well, I applied for it.
Speaker 2:Was that all? Yeah, that's how.
Speaker 3:That's how things work, eh I think a lot of it was like you know, I, I, I, because I like built my own brand and my own magazine. That helped.
Speaker 2:Um, okay, so defy was first.
Speaker 3:if I was first.
Speaker 3:Um, so I yeah, I worked at the Canadian health and wealth magazine and then I also worked at salt wire on the marketing side. So I have been kind of in the news, I was in the news game but like on the like kind of brand building side. Um, I think when the Kyle, who's the guy that founded the coast, saw my application, he was like news check Like, and so we talked. Once I was on vacation we talked once. He was like I feel like, are you sure you're not a bot? I can't believe you know you're real and you live in Halifax and we hit it off really well and then, and then that it just happened from there and you guys put out the daily publications which.
Speaker 1:I've been reading, so I mean, by the time this episode comes out, we might have been the best podcast in Nova Scotia or in the coast, or we're not. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Whatever, no big deal, but you know, hey, that got me seeing your newsletter because I wasn't subscribed.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, so everybody that was voting for the Afternoon, piner, whoever subscribed to the coast and started seeing your videos. I think they're great, they're fun, they're entertaining, they're quick and I can read them in two minutes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the cool thing is is that I read all the news for you, right? So I go through CBC and Global and CTV and some of the national news and some of the international news and I just kind of synthesize it into bite-sized digestible pieces for you tell you what events are going on restaurants.
Speaker 2:It's just like a mini coast, but you get a complete roundup every morning yeah, and also just like thank you because you included our like of course, yeah like in there, so like honestly thank you for that.
Speaker 3:Of course, yeah, happy to, happy to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was fun, yeah, so, uh, uh. So what's next for you now, like in terms of life, are you happy with the way things are going? I mean, things are pretty good. You just got to keep the wheels turning.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean every day is like I never really know what's around the corner, but it keeps you know I have. It's interesting because since I've been, you know, the last couple of years have not been easy you know with my mom and there's so many challenges, but I mean I just keep doing the right things and the right things seem to be happening yeah.
Speaker 2:What's kind of cool about this is like we we seem to have, like some people on here like that we keep discovering that I think is inspirational that we we've had a few people that have hit rock bottom and within, honestly, like year two, like our champions, realize their power. Right, yeah, and it's which I think is pretty cool, right, yeah, and which I think is pretty cool, I think there's a collection in there that people where you can just you can essentially just kind of like make up your mind to just be like I'm gonna start doing this, I'm gonna start working towards this and you can start tomorrow yeah, it's just like deciding to like.
Speaker 3:For me it was like take myself out of the equation and start being like when all else fails for me. Being useful, like stepping up and doing something for someone else, gets me out of myself, because my own brain is, like you know, left to my own devices. You know I can't run the show but, yeah, getting out there and being helpful and a big part of the, you know the coast is like I'm not doing this for me.
Speaker 2:You know what I?
Speaker 3:mean I'm doing it to help you know local journalism, because we need it 100%, that is very true.
Speaker 1:So I want to ask about a couple of things. So feminism versus intersectional feminism. So when I saw that you know in your kind of description, of yourself in the coast. It said you're an intersectional feminist. And I'm like I know what a feminist is, but what does the intersectional part mean? I looked it up, but how do you describe it?
Speaker 3:For me, it's just understanding that the experiences of sexism and misogyny are going to be different across different groups, right? So you've heard of like a TERF, right?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Trans Exclusionary. So for me it's like JK Rowling. Yeah, exactly, so that that doesn't work for me, right? So if you're, if you say you're a woman, you're a woman, a woman's. A woman is a woman. But, also understanding that, like, like there's, like you know, in anything right, there's like a, there's a pyramid, right. So like I am a white woman, right, so I have to understand that, just in that, I have probably the best experience in a workplace or you know, navigating the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, shitty right, it's like.
Speaker 3:So then you go and then there's like then there's fat women then, there's black women, there's women, you know, and it's like it's understanding that, like so yeah, it's like if things are good, things might be good for, you know, rich white women right, and it's like you know this is people hear this and be like that's not what it's like.
Speaker 3:In my place I've worked for some really, really bad white women. Yeah, right, that are like that, are like their. Their internal misogyny is like so strong that they think you know that they're like there is no sexism, because look at me and it's like no. You got to think about like if things are getting good for like the top of the pyramid, you got to bring everyone along with you Right.
Speaker 3:Right, and a lot of people will say, like you know, I've heard it said that when the glass ceiling breaks, a lot of people get cut along the way down because it's like, yeah, so it might be good that you're, you earned a partnership, but what will happen is the men will start to squeeze tighter on the women below them right. So the women that are the assistants and, like you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like it's like the lower down that you go, the more. And so if I, if I get the big, the big promotion and don't think about how that's going to affect other, all the other people around me, like that's, that is not pulling everyone along yeah, right, does that make sense?
Speaker 2:no, no, that makes total sense. In like intersectionality is actually something that I don't know. Maybe in the last four or five years I've been reading a little bit about like nothing too deep, like I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means, but I've been reading a little bit about and I find it interesting, not even just like intersectional, like feminism, but just intersectionality in general, just understanding that everyone's experience is completely.
Speaker 3:Everyone has a experience.
Speaker 2:The wage gap. And when you look at the wage gap particularly, it seems to be more in the US. They have more numbers first of all, and then there seems to be wider gaps it seems to be much wider gaps, but I remember reading it's like if you're a white or Asian male, they're the top, and then there's all these steps along the way.
Speaker 3:They're like the top, yeah, and then it's like there's all these steps along the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all the steps down, yeah, and it's like black men and basically in the US, if you are a Latino woman, you're basically. It was something stupid like 46 cents on the dollar.
Speaker 3:Wow, yeah, it's insane, holy shit.
Speaker 2:Right, so you can't say just because.
Speaker 3:So that's a great example, right? So if I'm a Latino woman working at the reception desk at a Fortune 500 company and a woman was just elected CFO, right, and then everyone goes. Well, misogyny is dead and it's like no, ask that person what their experience is like. Right, Because all the guys that are pissed that that position went to a woman are going to take it out on people below them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean another thing. I saw one article in Defy I thought was good. I read a few of them misogyny and sex. You only saw one. What? Yeah?
Speaker 2:I'm just kidding. What's that?
Speaker 3:he's like I read a thing once congratulations. Four times in my life I've read now, each time it's been, it's been fast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you learn all sorts I learn all these new things in tricks, uh uh misogyny, uh verse sexism right, I mean huge difference, yeah, huge difference.
Speaker 3:Could you explain the difference to our listeners a little bit, yeah so I didn't quite understand this, because I think they're used like interchangeably and I read this book by kate mann called the logic down girl, the logic of misogyny. Kate mann is a university at cornell professor. She's from australia, she's. I've interviewed her for the magazine. She's incredible, but she talks about misogyny. Basically the way that she defines it. That I love is misogyny is the behavior enforcement branch of the patriarchy.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:So this is like you know, sexism. She always says sexism, sexist should have lab coats, but misogynists have pitchforks, right? So it's like you know. It's like one thing to be like you know. Math is a great example, right? Because you're a woman, you're genetically not as good at math, therefore you wouldn't make a good accountant. That's sexist right.
Speaker 3:Misogyny is going you're fine, but don't you dare come take my job or be confident or act in a way like you're fine being here, as long as you're operating exactly and behaving exactly how I want you to.
Speaker 2:Smile for me, right. That kind of thing, that kind of thing, right?
Speaker 3:So it's like, if you're, it's like it's like, yeah, women can be here, that's fine, but don't step out the side. And also the idea that, like that, women achieve at the detriment to men. Like it's like the idea that something's stolen from them.
Speaker 2:The election stolen from a that as well, where people think like affirmative action right, like yeah, exactly, and it's like why?
Speaker 3:like you know, and and you know the idea that it's like if a woman's there, then they didn't. It's not their right. It's not their like god-given right to have that job right, right and that's, that's misogyny right that's the behavior enforcement. It's like you're fine working here, but until it infringes on me yeah, and it makes me uncomfortable and the behavior's not cool and I prefer if you just behave in a way that makes me comfortable.
Speaker 1:What can everyone do men, women, whoever to kind of help mitigate misogyny and sexism in the workplace? How do you identify it and how do you call it out?
Speaker 3:I think it's you know it's so systemic and that, you know, in a lot of ways there's on my worst day I'm like, oh, let's just wait for all these old guys to just die and like you know what I mean and that sounds really terrible, but like it's like there's this weird thing happening right now where it's generational, though you're right, right where it's like men want to stay because it's funny when I like the ad agency is a great example, right.
Speaker 3:I remember walking in and they beat guys that were there that were in their 50s and 60s or whatever, and it's almost like they when I'm around.
Speaker 1:It's like they're like oh, remember the good old days when this stupid woman didn't have to be at this boardroom table it's like they remember that, and they're like romanticizing but you know generational things, we got to check ourselves sometimes too because I mean I'm of the, the age when we were all teenagers. If all each other gay, if they did something stupid right, right and uh, and you know if you look at that now you have. But it's also taking personal responsibility right like.
Speaker 3:It's like becoming it's also taking personal responsibility right Like it's like becoming. It's like it's not enough anymore to just say like well, I didn't know.
Speaker 2:Okay well, there's so many resources.
Speaker 3:It's like HR and you know, it's all of the things that are forming the pillars of our society. Right, it's like, as long as it's like a patriarchal society and as long as it's like we keep, and what the patriarchy loves to do is keep women fighting with each other, right, and it's like and pitting women against each other, and it's like, as women, we need to be holding each other up.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And advocating for each other. But I also just think it's about like education Right, and like you can't change anything if you don't know, but if you, there's so many people that just are unwilling to learn.
Speaker 1:It's like's huge.
Speaker 3:And it's men and women. I was at an event recently and this woman was speaking and I won't say who she was, but she was like an older woman and she just said you know, it's great to be here in front of you, know, all of these brilliant women, and then, whatever it is that you call yourself, like you didn't know how to say trans women, or just stop at women, right, right, and it's like that's not good enough.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:To blame it on like, oh well, things are changing and I it's like that's not good enough for me yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I mean like yeah, cause I mean I mean people are going to obviously learn and stuff like that, and I'm a firm believer that like it's hard to look back in time and like blame people, but it's all learning, like you said learning learning to change and be open, being willing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly you know, obviously, like you said, like there was a time where we would say other things, that we would not use that type of language now, and it's to the point now where it's like. You know, I was obviously a part of that 20, 30 years ago, but now when I hear it I'm always kind of like turned your cat back, yeah, yeah that's not cool anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you just say that like yeah you get into that mentality which is awesome that we do that stuff, like you know that, yeah, but also I think that a huge thing is like checking each other, right like it's like I was reading the story about you know you'll, you'll see all sorts of like we wrote.
Speaker 3:There was a story about how the police are looking for a guy. That's like just like following women when they're getting off the bus, and so I talked a lot about how, like you don't realize as a guy like, but the sidewalk is a scary place for a woman- right and if you see something, say something like guys are like it's like you'll see this really awkward thing happen or scary thing happen and we're like, well, I don't want to get involved.
Speaker 2:It's like you got to get involved right like yeah, yeah, I firmly believe that. Yeah, we're good for that yeah, you guys seem like nothing else. We're good for getting involved yeah, I probably get involved too much sometimes yeah but you know, yeah that's the thing too. But I mean, yeah, I probably, you know, put my foot in my mouth or start arguments that I probably should.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd more say the wrong thing than anything.
Speaker 2:But I'll say something and then I'll say something online and be like oh actually, and then you know you have people, 16 people jump on you. I'm like, oh man, this took I know more time than I wanted to, yeah it's funny.
Speaker 3:The other day my dad, who's late 70s or whatever, he was talking about this girl he saw in the gym at Dalplex that was doing all these pull-ups and he's like and I didn't look because I know you're not supposed to look at girls in the gym anymore- I'm like good for you I guess Good for you. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Hey, it's like you know there's this. It's always especially with him. It's like I know we're not supposed to, I don't know, I don't know anymore. Right, it's like and I understand. It's frustrating and scary, you know like.
Speaker 3:But at least being able to say like I don't know right, like that's. That's safer than pretending that you know or that it doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:I, I, I actually like, I think that's a thing that people are almost like they're afraid to say I don't't know.
Speaker 1:So they dig their heels in more and they get defensive.
Speaker 3:It's okay to say it's like you know, I'm not sure I'm going to screw it up, or if you accidentally misgender someone, right, apologize.
Speaker 1:This really reminds me of what's coming on right now is like with this woke and waning woke conversation. It's like I hate both words in a sense.
Speaker 3:Well, I, it was like from like Martin.
Speaker 1:Luther.
Speaker 2:King days, right, like you know, and they've taken this word and they've vilified it, vilified it, vilified it.
Speaker 1:So I mean, yeah, I just really hate that and I just think you need to think like a little bit beyond what's woke or what isn't woke, or like speaking out against things you don't think are right or unjust, and working together and it's not always fighting, this can be done.
Speaker 3:It's like woke versus work. Woke is less important than like individualism versus collectivism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Like and like this idea that, like you know every man for himself, I'll do what I want. You can't tell me what to do. You can't tell me to recognize this person.
Speaker 2:You can't tell me this, you can't tell me that I'm gonna, and that's individualism, right like that yeah, I mean a couple things there too the, I, the ironic thing that I find about like the, um, the, the type of people that say like you know, that they hate the woke or whatever right are, also seem to be, very ironically, the same people that are like wake up people. The government is, you know, the, the world economic forum, wake up, wake up. It's like you're telling people to be woke at the same time, you're telling people to not be woke.
Speaker 3:It's like that awkward moment when you realize that the far left and the far right are the same seriously it's a loop it's like I remember when it was like crunchy and really left to homeschool your kids, and now it's like. Now it's super christian and right to homeschool your kids. It's like it's just like you're teaching the bible, you're teaching like plant-based learning, and it's like we're still you know what I mean, like, but it's the same principle, the individual versus collective right.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm gonna do what's good for me. I'm gonna take care of number one yeah, and you're not gonna tell me how to do it right, but it's like you're both saying the same things they honestly, sometimes you can, it's like almost like verbatim, it's Even like anti-vaxxing right. Anti-vaxx is such a far left granola thing, and now it's far right. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they've met in the middle. It's kind of funny that way.
Speaker 3:Is it funny or is it just horrifying? A little bit of both. Yeah, okay cool, it's all just distractions.
Speaker 2:Not funny, ha-ha.
Speaker 1:So okay, so we got some fun stuff here. Now Is it fun? I think it's fun, you'll. You'll tell me if it's fun or not. So these are good questions or bad questions to ask an intersectional feminist. I'll start with question one. Okay, uh, what policy changes or legislative actions would you like to see implemented to advance intersectional feminist goals?
Speaker 2:I can't, it's too no good question or bad question, that's all bad. It's a bad question, I mean it's just like.
Speaker 3:If someone like I feel like it's like just because you say you're an intersectional feminist doesn't mean you're an expert on like every poll, like it's a lot of pressure to be, like you stand for this, then what does that mean? Like what do we? Do policy wise and legislative. It's like can I just be like? It's like, why do I have to defend my position?
Speaker 2:by knowing everything there is to know about it cool, good answer, like you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like I feel, I feel like matt has a really good question for you. You gave me the worst. No, no, he gave me, is it just? Are you a lesbian? No, I don't think we have that. It might as well be, it might as well be.
Speaker 2:Do you hate men? I mean depends on the man.
Speaker 3:Perfect, no in the same way that I don't think men like I'm not a man, it might as well be. Do you hate men? I mean, it depends on the men.
Speaker 2:Perfect answer? No, in the same way that I don't think men like I'm not a man hater.
Speaker 3:I love men. I'm married to a man. I have lots of great men in my life, but it's not about hating men, that's a bad question.
Speaker 2:That's an obnoxious question.
Speaker 3:It's just a very obvious and obvious, of course we always get that right. It's always like, well, you're just an angry feminist. I'm like, yeah, I'm yes correct.
Speaker 2:The funny thing is, you know what it's uh like. Dave chappelle had one of his little things there recently in one of his specials and he was talking with feminism. He said and he talked read the definition of feminism. He was like by definition, I'm a feminist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah, we all, we all are.
Speaker 3:Well, you should be it should be, yeah I don't think. Yeah, I don't think everyone is also, if you, I always think that, like I was talking to my husband about this, I'm like if you were an alien and you came down and you just like looked at the world, wouldn't you be like shocked that women weren't in charge? Right, like you'd be like these things, like they procreate, they can like duplicate women are in charge of my house.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you that much, and that's the other thing that we don't like. Which is so funny for marketing is everyone for like the 90s and the 2000s right? It's like marketing to men, marketing to men. It's like women make all of the purchasing decisions in the house. Like cars, it.
Speaker 1:I get a corner.
Speaker 3:It's like a TV corner 40 to 50-year-old old women are making the most money, the most educated and spending the money so like. Why are we marketing to?
Speaker 1:men anymore. That's also shifted a lot through instagram and stuff, though I see tons of ads geared to women now. That like more so than ever before.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, it's definitely changing, but even just like you wouldn't think that, like you know, you're advertising for. You see, now cars are like very family-centric instead of like sexy, right I'm just gonna go with the absolute basic thing.
Speaker 2:Have you ever heard of a men's night at a bar?
Speaker 3:no, like no, well, that would just be every night at a bar. Is what you're explaining?
Speaker 2:but, like every, every bar owner knows that you need to like, just talk to the women, because if you can get the women, you'll get the men well, yeah, they're just right, that's. That's the marketing of that. Yeah, yeah, it was funny.
Speaker 3:Someone said I was talking about it in the coast, about, I think it was. Oh, a woman made a movie Tara Thorne, who's from Halifax and it was about kind of like a vigilante justice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had her on. She was on our show, right?
Speaker 3:She was just there, but someone was like how would you like it if I suggested?
Speaker 2:that a everyday life. Men love killing women, it's their favorite thing to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like what you're describing is just yes, so I would feel outraged, which is how we should all feel right like it's scary being a woman yeah, and anyone that would suggest otherwise.
Speaker 1:It was great that it was like hipster hypocritical oh yeah, a feminist I thought that was so fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I, I, I also described it as as a lesbian batman.
Speaker 1:She loved that yeah, yes, hell yes, hell yes okay, uh, next one here, number three number, is it number?
Speaker 2:three.
Speaker 1:We're just at number three, oh my gosh, okay, we're gonna be here till 10 o'clock. What role can men play in supporting feminism?
Speaker 3:I mean just be open-minded and willing to understand that. It's not like that. It's a thing, right Like it's really interesting. I think that so many men have like an opinion. They're like well, there's no misogyny here. I'm like, well, misogyny in itself is defined by the victim. Right Like you can't tell me that whether a place like a workplace is super misogynist, you have no idea it. You have no idea. It's like you have to believe that when women say a thing, you have to believe them when they say it the first time.
Speaker 2:Okay, and you know what? Just so we, because you know, obviously we hear that.
Speaker 3:I hear that statement all the time You're pointing your finger. No, no, I know.
Speaker 1:But also because I like to dive. He doesn't finger think all the time.
Speaker 2:He doesn't finger think all the time he can't, because there's always a follow-up to that and people say like, well, what about? And this is where I want to answer is like, um, what if it's not the case in reality? Because you know how they say, there's three sides of a story, whatever, because some people might kind of fire back that like of like well, how would you know like so if I say it is it is, it's victim-centric right.
Speaker 3:So if no you, the way that you'll know that there's no misogyny in your workplace is no one will say there is.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I just wanted you to follow up. I don't know.
Speaker 3:That makes sense to me.
Speaker 1:We're going to skip to the last question and then we're going to go to the fun questions fun, random questions.
Speaker 2:I have nothing to do with anything.
Speaker 1:These are fun, this so this is the last non-fun question. How do you envision Sorry, it's really loud up in the pub here tonight how do you envision evolving feminism in the future?
Speaker 3:I think that intersectionality part comes in Evolving feminism. I think it's really about it's like we have to be carrying each other along and understanding that the privilege of being a white woman is huge and understanding that with that privilege comes a lot of responsibility.
Speaker 2:Perfect.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm working to do anyway, awesome.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. No problem, all right Ready for fun dumb questions Fun questions. All right, matt, you lead the way. These make no sense. These are just random. Excellent.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:I'm leading the way, I'm sorry. Yeah, sure, good.
Speaker 2:What's your favorite movie and why?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's so hard.
Speaker 1:Okay, or a favorite movie, and why?
Speaker 3:Like recent or just of all time. Any time I love Pretty Woman. It was like formative, don't even get me on. The people are like you're saying you're a feminist. How do you like pretty woman? Like because julia roberts is sexy and everyone loves her and she's an america sweetheart I love that movie. I saw it when I was way too young. Um but um. Recently I love the movie monster with shirley's throne she plays eileen warno.
Speaker 2:She's awesome, so good. She's probably my favorite actress. She is incredible.
Speaker 3:She's awesome and that movie she's probably my favorite actress.
Speaker 2:She is incredible.
Speaker 3:She's awesome and that movie is just like anyone that's willing to get, just like super gnarly and ugly, I love. I just saw the Substance.
Speaker 1:Is that great?
Speaker 3:Which was an incredible experience.
Speaker 1:I want to see it, yeah, it was wild. There's a lot of ties into Stanley Kubrick's the Shining, the.
Speaker 3:Shining. Well, it's like it's, you know, first of all, like Demi Moore, I, like Demi Moore, did the damn thing. Yeah, right so that right now is my favorite movie.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 3:I don't know if it's my favorite movie ever but it also depends on your mood.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, I want to see that, okay. Next question If you were stuck at home with nothing tomorrow, but a single book?
Speaker 3:Have you ever heard of my Year of Rest and Relaxation?
Speaker 1:No no.
Speaker 3:It's pretty good.
Speaker 1:Cool, yeah, okay, and who's that? Do you know who this is by?
Speaker 3:Odessa. I forget how to say her last name.
Speaker 1:Okay cool.
Speaker 3:That's a really good one. Actually, I take that back, and this is not a very feminist book, but if you've not read, John Irving's A Prayer for Owen Meany.
Speaker 2:Cool, very cool. All right, do you believe in aliens?
Speaker 3:Hell yes, all right, I mean yeah.
Speaker 2:Just in. I guess we should specify like aliens in general or aliens visiting, or yes to both. Hell yes, think they're on the earth.
Speaker 1:You know what's interesting.
Speaker 2:Do you think Matt's one? Yeah, I'll be, I spotted that.
Speaker 3:I clocked that as soon as I got here.
Speaker 2:It's the best.
Speaker 3:But a lot of people say that there's like a lot of more alien presence around, like when there's nuclear any kind of like nuclear activity. Cool Because I think they're like coming down to be like, but do you know that, like in, like Yarmouth, there was a really famous the Shake Harbor.
Speaker 1:The Shake Harbor, yeah, very famous Normal Investigator on our show. We talk all about that.
Speaker 3:It's really cool. Yeah, I'm obsessed with that story. Yeah, they just had like a big conference there.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm into it. The director was on our show, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, look at you guys. Yeah, we can't bring you any information.
Speaker 1:We might just be the best podcast on the coast or not, yeah or not we. All right, okay, what's the weirdest gift you've ever received? Oh, I like this question Weirdest gift? Just a weird ass gift.
Speaker 3:I understand the question. Like a weird gift.
Speaker 2:Is Mike talking?
Speaker 3:to you. Can you say it again? I'm trying to keep it like. You can pass if you want. Yeah, let's pass. I can't even think of Go ahead, man, all right.
Speaker 2:If you could bring one cartoon character to life and be its friend, who would it be? Garfield, oh, there you go. You also hate Mondays.
Speaker 3:I hate Mondays. Love lasagna, love cats Sarcasm. Love his just all bad behavior. Yeah, I love that cat, all right, amazing.
Speaker 2:That's a good pick.
Speaker 1:Okay, if you could pick any individual in the world, dead or alive, to have brunch with tomorrow, who would you pick, and why? Taylor Swift, wow, cool.
Speaker 3:Hell yeah.
Speaker 1:You just won my stepdaughter's heart. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, her phone has Taylor Swift, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:She's a Swifty, huge swifty. I'm going to the concert on november 22nd. I did cash in my rsps to buy tickets. Um, I already went in chicago, but then torture poets department happened, so I had to re-up. Um, yeah, taylor swift, like every day, good on all day okay, and last question, yeah, last question.
Speaker 2:So what's one thing everyone can do to make the world a better place?
Speaker 1:just one thing, it's not all the things just be kind.
Speaker 3:Perfect answer running and it's the most common answer, so just be kind and don't bully people at their workplace when they're just trying to do like a nice newsletter that's free, just for you, and it's free. If you don't like it, just unsubscribe. You don't have to tell me that you hate me 100 I totally agree with that one.
Speaker 1:If you don't like it, unsubscribe.
Speaker 3:It's free yeah. And I did go to journalism school Very, very little, very little free things today. Yeah, yeah, I get this thing for free that someone does nice, tastefully, puts together for me, and I simply must tell her I hate her, that's amazing Online world is a funny place. Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2:Reddit's challenging.
Speaker 1:I've just entered into the Reddit arena. We've been chewed up on Reddit, have you?
Speaker 3:That's almost like a rite of passage, I feel like if you're not Just for putting up, a politician.
Speaker 1:We didn't even say anything. We were not left or right.
Speaker 3:We just shared. Hey, we had a politician on our show and they're like oh yeah, they didn't like it. Yeah, you don't want to call this propaganda machine, yeah that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:I think that if you don't get haters, you're not doing anything. 100 that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I think we need more haters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love my haters I always have. I can start trolling you or you can borrow some of mine. Yeah, maybe after I'll share this episode in the newsletter there go and then maybe all the people that hate me will come troll you Tell them, all the people that hate me, come listen to this episode. If you still hate me, send me another email. You know what's the afternoon point. You know what's funny.
Speaker 2:We haven't had any online real trolling people.
Speaker 1:No, not too bad, but you know what though?
Speaker 2:My dad was on metro trend. One of my parents were on the metro transit going to work sorry, it's a lie. Yeah, I just don't remember who it is, but they uh, they yelled like across the bus. They're like I like your son's podcast, but tell him not to have those uh drag queens on there again and I was like are you serious?
Speaker 3:like that's what you yelled like, so we have a little bit, but also so much tied into that because it's kind of like hey, like the recognition, love your podcast hate your content hate your guests so it's like, yeah, it's a neutral. I would say it's a neutral, um, but yeah, I had one woman that was like I take it. I take I like was just previewing a drag show. They're like like how dare you say Mike Hunt?
Speaker 1:And I was like this is going in my wall of fame. That's amazing. Cheers to you, Julie.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:We definitely invite you back for another round with us.
Speaker 2:Anytime.
Speaker 1:Thanks again, that'll depend on gold or not, you're definitely invited back if we win gold.
Speaker 2:If we won gold, if not, smell you later.
